ACTUAL WARNING: “Playing outside…can truly disrupt sleep schedules and lead to long term health effects.”

“…and spend their days playing outside or laying on the beach or the couch”

What a range of behaviors to lump together. News flash to whoever wrote this: Spending most of your day playing outside has distinctly different long term health impacts than spending most of your day laying on a couch.

Wait, wait, I think you hit publish on this a bit to soon. Who wrote this crazy thing?! What weird snake oil were they selling? Any idea why they sent it *to*you* of all people?!??! What’s the story here?

Well, I might have paid more attention had they said lying instead of laying.

I’m always tickled when I see dire warnings about the long-term effects of anything (other than drugs, etc). I once read a doctor saying that having a single cigarette in one’s youth would lead to lifelong health problems. Give me a break.

The sarcasm is strong with this one. And well-deserved, too. What a ridiculous notion.

Of course it disrupts sleep cycles… kids who play outdoors no longer sleep til noon on weekends!

Warning: freedom from rigid schedules may lead to independent decision making and spontaneous activities. Also independence.

Warning: attending post sundown firework displays may lead to long term sleepiness, emotional swings, and immune system suppression. Also happy experiences and memories.

Warning: freedom to self-select summer reading books may kead to exposure to topics and viewpoints outside of the common core. Also may prevent reading level regression.

So, in other words, being a kid (i.e., playing outside or laying on the couch or beach) can lead to long-term health effects.

Okay then.

When did summer freedom=hedonism?

My kids swim, outside, every day. They play, outside, for most of the day. They sleep like babies and go to bed rather early (by 9pm most nights) because they are exhausted from physical activity. they get up early no matter what.

I’m more worried about reapplying sunscreen with how much time they spend outside, not their sleep schedules.
And I think keeping kids on strict schedules all year long is the result of controlling parents who want to micromanage every detail of childhood, which isn’t realistic, given that children should have say in how they choose their free play.

Summer is awesome. Kids need a break from school to recharge their batteries and lazy days at beaches and lakes are very much learning experiences. Way to get all Debbie Downer about “disrupted routines”.

Meh. If we react with horror every time someone tries to sell us something, we’d never have any fun.

There’s a kernel of truth buried in the BS. If you drop schedule completely, the tendency is to get a lot less sleep. Once you do that, you get into a sleep-debt state that can produce health effects. (But mostly just makes you get a grumpy.disposition.)

The real danger from playing outside is that bright shiny thing in the sky. It burns! It burns!

” If you drop schedule completely, the tendency is to get a lot less sleep. Once you do that, you get into a sleep-debt state that can produce health effects.” That’s true, but I think especially with kids, hefty doses of outdoor activity and sun are going to ensure a healthy does of sleep too. Or that’s what I find with my son, anyway – a couple of hours outside pretty much guarantees that nap happens.

As someone who experiences debilitating depression on cloudy days and throughout the winter, I’d argue quite the opposite– I can only speak for myself but Ive finally become aware that being forced to spend the day under florescent lights (instead of sunshine or at least a sun-mimicking lamp) is likely to bring on illness. I fantasize about sending my son to his free range type summer camp (shout out to liberty lake day camp!) year long instead of public school, I bet it would be far more beneficial.

“I think especially with kids, hefty doses of outdoor activity and sun are going to ensure a healthy does of sleep too.”
My daughter wouldn’t go to sleep if anyone else was still awake, either at naptime or bedtime. She lost her daytime nap permanently when she started school, at 4. For at least 8 years after that, if I wanted her to go to sleep, I had to shut off the TV and do something quiet for 5-10 minutes. Once I figured that out, it worked reliably.

The invention of the DVR saved my daughter’s health! I could record a show and start watching it 10 minutes later, after she was asleep.
Yes, I suppose I could have just watched less TV, too… why do you mention it?

Dude its not the working moms that are why kids don’t sleep in. I am a SAHM and I would pay money for them to sleep in just on weekends or every once in awhile to like 10. Never has happened. Best I have gotten was almost 9 once. Usually 8 am is the latest they will sleep and sometimes they are up from 6 am. I try to make the rule don’t get out of bed till 7 am.

I was able to sleep in as a kid. I enjoyed it. If mine stay up till midnight they still wake their butts up at 7am sharp asking for breakfast and then act grumpy the rest of the day since they did not get all the sleep they needed.

If we run around all day long and get exercise all day long they still wake up at 7am.

@SOA, how old are your kids? My little ones are still in the phase where they wake up the same time (somewhere between 6:45 and 7:45) no matter what time we put them to bed, and often a later bed times means they are up EARLIER. But for the last year or so, my 11yo has actually been sleeping later when he’s up later. If we let him stay up until 11 or 12, he’ll sleep in until 9 or 10. It’s glorious. If only we could get all the kids to do that! Because, I’m with you: I would LOVE for my kids to sleep in. I like to have a couple of hours before they are up in the morning to get stuff done, and I don’t love having to wake up at 5 a.m. for that to happen.

The kids’ bedtime has changed a bit. The youngest (20 months) is no longer content with going down at 7:00, and that’s fine by me as she’s also sleeping later in the morning. Yes, we’re putting the older kids to bed a bit later, but considering that “putting them to bed” does not equal “the time they fall asleep,” it’s not really a material difference.

This is another reason I hate daylight savings time. It’s a bit rough trying to put kids to bed when it’s still so light out. That and the later sunrise in the morning is a pain when you’re trying to get out and run, but that’s for another conversation.

Who ever wrote that either hates kids, or is a complete moron. There is no other logical, reasonable or valid explanation.

“some people thrive in a more-structured environment”

You misspelled “sheeple”.

“James Pollack, ADJUSTMENT is a key factor in all our lives.”
And some people are better at it than other people are. I don’t generally feel a need to attack other people for making different choices (for themselves, or for their children).

Whoever is behind this email wants to sell something. He sends out this email, and some people say “oh, good Lord, no!”… they’re not buying what he’s selling. Some people say “Oh, this is just what I was looking for!” (at least, he (or possibly she) hopes so.) I decline to judge somebody, just because they’re on one side or the other.

“Let me ask you, we’re you structured growing up?”
No, and yes, depending on how you want to look at it.

“Many of us weren’t. We learned to adapt. Experience by trial and error. To much structure, and you breed children to be too independent.”
I assume you meant “dependent” here.

“They don’t know how to adapt, because everything is done for them. How do you think they will fair in adulthood worn that mind set?”
I think they’ll fare just fine, most of them.

“Like I’ve always said, don’t fix what isn’t broke.”
There have been people who prefer a structured, regimented life for as long as there has been any such thing. There have been people who prefer a less-structured, spur-of-the-moment existence. Too much of either is probably harmful. Neither is a new invention. There has always been, and will always be, people who favor a strict approach to child-rearing complaining about the “lazy” parents who just let their kids run around all day. There has always been, and will always be, people who favor a laissez-faire approach to child-rearing complainging about the “crazy” parents who want their children toeing the line at all times.
I’d bet we all know someone whose parents gave them too much freedom, and we also know someone whose parents gave them too little.

A counter-argument:
Freedom isn’t free. Children should have some, to the degree that they show they can use it responsibly. Giving them freedom they haven’t earned does them no service. Giving them freedom they aren’t prepared for does them no service. Every child has a “right amount” of freedom (more correctly, a range of “right amount”). Too much regimentation, and you strangle their creativity. Too little, and you get the effect you’re afraid of… 30 years old, unable to provide for themselves, still dependent on parents or others.

What is summer without a little fun and some enjoyment of the light and warmth? I live in northern Sweden close to the Arctic circle so it is light all night and most people are up later at night so why not the kids? I remember that some of the most glorious times I had as a child was when we were in our cabin in the woods and we were allowed to run free and stay up until we were so tired we almost fell down on the floor. I remember the crisp night air, picking flowers and hearing birds start their morning routine. I remember running around and the adults only catching the most tired kid and demand it went to bed. We often kept away from them to not be caught but most accepted going to bed once caught and I remember sleeping so soundly from being up so late and from the fresh air. If I can even give my daughter a fraction of this I will.

Tonight we went to a car meet where people bring their veteran (or near veteran) cars. We have a pick-nick and look at cars and my husband tells me and our daughter about the different cars. After it is over we walk back enjoying the summer evening. Our daughter often falls asleep on the way back but not tonight so it was after 9 before she fell asleep. She is going to day care tomorrow and she might be tired but that is not the end of the world, having to never do anything out of the ordinary would be though.

What about the effects on the parents, is what I’d like to know. 😛 I would like us to be on a regular schedule because none of us do well on a chaotic one. But I’m not about to be militant about it in the summer.

So … what “long term effects” are they talking about? Do they have evidence that chasing fireflies and sleeping in the morning after causes health problems?

“Do they have evidence that chasing fireflies and sleeping in the morning after causes health problems?”

It does for the fireflies.

“But not unlimited unstructured play.”

If you ask me, you’re fighting a straw man. Have you seen any of the statistics on how dramatically the number of minutes children spend in free play daily declines every year?

“There’s a time to put toys away, and get chores done. Summertime, enerally, provides a lot more opportunities to do fun things, which is great. It doesn’t completely absolve us of doing things that need to be done.”

Yes, and I had chores in summer. When they were done, I was free to play my own way. I think you’re setting up a false antithesis. Appropriate freedom is not what spoils kids. What could be more appropriate than playing freely with other kids? I’ve taught college students of the current generation, who had far less freedom than mine – they were supervised non-stop and taken to simulating, educational activities up the wazoo – but I assure you, they were certainly NOT less spoiled than my generation.

And I don’t think the problem of excessive screentime is unrelated. If you won’t give your kids freedom in any other form, they’ll take virtual freedom instead. Who can blame them?

@Anna, if anything, I think we’re seeing young people have both less unstructured free time AND less chores and responsibilities. The two are not in any way in opposition. I would bet that if we tracked the number of minutes kids spent a day doing chores and the number of minutes a day they spent in unsupervised, unstructured play, we’d see them fall at about the same rate. My parents had lots of chores AND lots of unsupervised free time. I had a moderate amount of chores and an moderate amount of unsupervised free time. Many of my kids’ friends have no chores and very little unsupervised free time.

“the observation that at this moment in history, in notable swaths of the English speaking world, have become fear driven. As a result there has been a sea change in what people find acceptable childhood freedom.”

I don’t believe either of these premises to be true.
At this moment in history, as in all other moments in history, there are people who think other people are giving kids too much freedom, and there are people who think other people are giving their kids too little. There have been people making their decisions based on fear (and fear-mongering) for, approximately, ever.

“You apparently live in a free range paradise.”
It’s called “the suburbs.” The actual risks to children are few, and the opportunities for them are many. YMMV.

“If you ask me, you’re fighting a straw man.”
Not at all. Here you have an ad that says that giving children unlimited freedom in summertime can be bad for them. This is vaguely true, in the sense that almost anything CAN be bad for them, if you’re willing to twist and weasel sufficiently. His actual claim is that letting children stay up all night and sleep in may disrupt their sleep schedules. Well, duh. Of course it can. It doesn’t say “oh God no, don’t let your kids play outside”. It doesn’t say “OMG if you don’t schedule every minute of their day they’re going to DIE a HORRIBLE DEATH and it will be YOUR FAULT!” It doesn’t even say “you know, letting your kids stay up late once in a while is totally a problem.”

” Have you seen any of the statistics on how dramatically the number of minutes children spend in free play daily declines every year?”
No. Nor do I have any confidence that this could be even remotely accurately measured.

“Appropriate freedom is not what spoils kids.”
I already claimed this thesis. Also “both too much AND too little is bad for them”.

“What could be more appropriate than playing freely with other kids?”
Any number of things, depending on the child(ren) involved, the situation, including time and place, and other pressing needs.

“I’ve taught college students of the current generation”
I was a college instructor for just over a decade. I disagree with your characterization that follows. Some kids had super-structured upbringings, and some did not. Some had a background where the whole family does everything together, some had “everybody does their own thing” The pattern you describe was typical for some, but nowhere near all.

The range of entertainment options has skyrocketed over the last century. Once, if you wanted to hear music, you had to first find someone who could make it. Now, a typical household probably has half-a-dozen different devices each capable of producing music on demand. In my youth, we had TV. 5 channels to choose from! These kids today are spoiled! Spoiled I say! The computer I had to work with (and I got ahold of one about 5 years ahead of my peers) was ridiculous. 32K of RAM, 170k on a floppy disk, no hard disk at all, single-color screen with only text and block characters.
Our kids will be fine. Other kids’ parents will make horrible, awful choices in the upbringing of their children, the vast majority of which will not harm them at all because “made a different decision than I did” and “horrible, awful choices” turn out not to be the same thing, after all.

Seems to me that the being bright outside naturally suggests that its not time for sleep yet.

Around here its been getting dark a bit after 9PM. Our two year old, who we had been putting to bed at 8, has recently taken to pointing to the window and saying ‘its not sleep time’ which is fine by me since it expands the time we all have for evening outdoor fun.

Completely has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Love the small town I just moved to. The people here don’t seem to have the ‘worst first’ infection.

In the past three days I’ve seen a number of kids as young as 5 or 6 riding bikes on their own as well as kids on their own in nearby parks.
Just a few minutes ago two little girls (aged 5 and 8) dropped by with some welcome treats, no parents in sight.

@James Pollock–Of course giving kids unlimited freedom in the summertime is bad for them. Heck, giving anyone unlimited anything at any time is bad for them. For example, I just had a small piece of dark chocolate after dinner. The rest of the chocolate is sitting on my bookshelf for later. I’m an adult, so I can self-regulate like that, because I know that, much as I like chocolate, too much isn’t good for me, and it’ll make me feel sick to my stomach, so it’s better to be enjoyed a little at a time, than all at once. The thing is, though, the author of this article is thinking in extremes, as is the “scheduled playdates only” mother who lives up the street from Lollipoplover and her mom. I was one of the first generation of bubble-wrapped kids, but I was nowhere near as overprotected as some kids are these days, and so, my brother and I were allowed to play outside on summer evenings (albeit in the yard, and not in the streets), but we had to come inside when the streetlights came on. That was the rule for pretty much all the other kids we knew as well–in fact, for a few years, my brother and I believed that that was the purpose of the streetlights; for the government to tell all the kids (or, all below some age cut-off, like maybe high school) when to come inside for the night. We also had to pick up after ourselves, take out the garbage, keep our bicycles covered at night, and when it rained, maintain proper hygiene, and follow a handful of other basic rules of safety and civility. Again, most other kids we knew followed the same rules. We also participated in a handful of extra-curricular activities and summer camps over the years; we just didn’t have every moment of our lives scheduled. So, it’s not as if everyone who grew up before this generation had total freedom–it’s been such a gradual shift, brought on by many small changes that people didn’t complain about at the time, and now kids are living lives where free play is an anomaly that “disrupts their schedules.” I think that most people here would say that the solution to that is more free play, not less. Again, this wouldn’t mean total freedom–there’d still be chores, and curfews, and expectations of fulfilling commitments (for example, no fair quitting dance two weeks before the big recital), but there’d also be time to ride bikes, climb trees, play street hockey, and do all the things that kids used to do before life revolved around Safety and Educational Opportunities.

“So, it’s not as if everyone who grew up before this generation had total freedom”
No, it’s as if some kids who grew up before this generation had lots and lots of freedom, while at the same time some other kids did not have total freedom. In fact, many kids of my generation had LOTS more freedom MUCH earlier, because… mom was at work when school let out.

“it’s been such a gradual shift, brought on by many small changes that people didn’t complain about at the time, and now kids are living lives where free play is an anomaly that “disrupts their schedules.””
No, SOME kids have highly regimented lives. Just like before. Some other kids do not have highly-regimented lives. Just like before.

“I think that most people here would say that the solution to that is more free play, not less.”
I think most people here would say that, too… which doesn’t make it right. I think it depends on the child(ren) involved, their history and psyche, their cultural influences, their environment. I made decisions about my child, you make decisions about your child(ren), and other people make the decision for their child(ren). Not everybody has to come to the same answer.

It’s similar to the question “when should you teach a child to read?”
There’s an argument for “as soon as possible… children who read earlier read more, and have more academic success later.”
There’s an argument for “Wait until they start school. Then they’ll be learning with everyone else, and won’t be bored sitting in class “learning” something they already know how to do.”
But the RIGHT answer is… it depends on the child. When the child is ready to start learning to read, they will… with or without your help.

So… if a child has a highly regimented life, and is thriving… the parent has made a correct decision. If the child has a lot of freedom, and is thriving… the parent has made a correct choice. Heck, it’s probably true that most kids would thrive either way… creativity and imagination seem to find away to break through and express themselves, no matter how hostile or welcoming the environment is.

Q: But… what if the parent has made a choice different from the one I would have made, and the child is thriving. I want to complain that they’re doing it “wrong”! Can’t I do that anyway?
A: Sure you can. But I won’t agree with you. Give that the full weight of consideration it deserves (probably not much, if any) and proceed as you see fit.

No wonder I’m so screwed up!

During the long Montana summer days we would get up at dawn (4AM) and be running around the outdoors like maniacs until too dark to see (9 or 10PM) and then play under the street light (only 5 in the whole town and we had one of them!) for another hour or so.

Because it was LIGHT!!!

=====
But, “summer as an amazing time to stay up late, sleep in and spend their days playing outside or laying on the beach or the couch;” does break the habit of getting up early and will cause some problems when school starts.

So a bit of moderation on the sleep in and stay up late might be reasonable

Does this mean that when they switch the clock for standard vs daylight saving time ; that they are causing a sleep disruption? A chronic, long term lasting problem?

Yay Warren! Ps I frequently think your comments are awesome and always look forward to reading them!

I’m sure we are playing into exactly what James wants.

Troll: One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers.

“I’m sure we are playing into exactly what James wants.”
Probably.

“Troll: One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers.”
And what is the argument I should be listening to? (Besides the fact that you’re attacking me, not vice versa).

Guys, if everyone makes it clear right away that they’re talking to James, the rest of us can easily skip his and those comments.

OF course it leads to long term health affects…those little rascals will grow up to have LOWER bp, LOWER body fat, HIGHER self esteem, HIGHER creativity, LESS inflammation and be HAPPY.

James,
No I don’t have to back off. You are a little troll. Because you still tried to sideline the story with the keys in the ignition and the car idling comment.

You lose. Play again. Actually just go away.

Dude, warren did not back off, he admitted to a single error.

Thank you Tamara.

That would explain my life without coffee.

BL – TPTB are actually getting concerned about this. They worry about the impact on the military.

I’m a horrible mother then.

Other than a week of resident camp, the odd week of some day camp, and summer school for the 8th grader who thought he could blow off Algebra with no consequences, I have scheduled nothing for my 13 and 14 year old kids this summer. Most days they will probably sleep until noon, get up and make themselves breakfast/lunch, hang around, play video games, work on their go cart, go biking, hang with friends, and stay up late watching movies. I don’t worry about them being home on their own. If they’re sleeping until noon, and husband gets home at 3:30-4pm, they’re not unsupervised for long. They know how to cook, they know to let us know via text if they’re going somewhere, and their friends know that they will face the Wrath Of Mom if they trash the house. They’re 10,000 percent happier when they are not scheduled to death all summer. Sure, the first week or two of school is an adjustment – it always is. I crack the whip when I get home so that dishes, laundry, and other chores get done. In fact, I get more chores out of them when they are following their own desired rhythm, versus being forced into an early to bed, early to rise mode for an arbitrary reason.