This piece comes to us from Carlos Morales, a former Child Protective Services investigator, now the supremely disillusioned author of “Legally Kidnapped: The Case Against Child Protective Services.” Carlos is president and founder of Child Protective Services Victim Support, and a legal advocate for family reunification. He lives in Manchester, NH. The second edition of his book is now available with an additional chapter on “Medical Kidnapping,” excerpted below.
This piece may remind you of my blog post from earlier this week about two kids removed from their home because the baby had a common bone fracture.
How The Government Made Parents Fear Doctors, by Carlos Morales
The term “medically kidnapped” is a recent turn of phrase, due to what appears to be an epidemic of Child Protective Services taking children way from parents after someone has submitted a report when a child goes to the hospital. The reasons for these reports can range from simple misunderstandings by medical practitioners, to allegations of parental drug abuse, to legitimate concerns of physical or sexual abuse, and so on. As is the case with most atrocities in life, the intent is usually born from benevolence rather than malevolence.
Within the United States, alternative media outlets have been covering this growing phenomenon that’s resulted in the removal of children for parental drug use—in many cases, marijuana use. While American’s view of cannabis use is changing for the better, as many states have begun to legalize recreational and medicinal marijuana use, those very states are still removing children from parents under the veneer of negligence.
The way by which Child Protective Services has been getting a lot of information is through mandatory reporting by medical practitioner — quite a few hospitals run drug tests on soon-to-be parents during pregnancy. As a result, the health practitioner is put in the difficult position whereby, even if they don’t believe marijuana could hurt a child, the state would consider them criminals if they didn’t report the illegal actions of the parent. This creates potentially hostile relationship dynamics between parents and health practitioners, which can make parents afraid to be open with doctors and nurses. As a result, this can endanger their lives and those of their children. The state creates a vicious circle whereby its definition of “the well-being of the child” comes before the child’s true well-being.
But to make the statement that a child would be worse off with a parent who smokes marijuana than a foster home is odd: the statistics regarding foster homes are staggering. Foster kids are seven to eight times more likely to be abused than non-foster children, and nearly half will end up homeless when they age-out at eighteen. They are three times more likely to be put on psychotropic drugs, and they are seven times more likely to develop an eating disorder. They are more likely to have PTSD than veterans of war, and less likely to recover from it. They are more likely to become pregnant as teenagers. They are also 20 percent more likely to be arrested. And tragically, they are six times more likely to die than if they stayed even in an abusive family household.
If we want to truly protect children, then we most remove the vacuous notions of the perfect parent.
Many of the doctors who have made the mistake of working with CPS and other state agencies believed that it was the only option they had. The saddest part is that this is true. The state monopolizes “protection” and prevents grace, tact, and resolution. Doctors are not your enemy any more than a farmer is your enemy—both have a valuable job to do, and both can provide for your well-being. The dismantling of the power structures that dictate doctors’ actions is the only way to produce a society in which people of good intent can work toward the well-being of those who cannot take care of themselves.
NOTE: Sources can be found here.
Lenore here: I do not know how pervasive the problem of removing kids for “medical” reasons from loving-but-imperfect homes is. But any rules that refuse to allow a professional to use his or her discretion in such a fraught situation are obviously laws based upon worst-first thinking. In other words, they require thinking up the worst case scenario first — “What if this child dies in the parent’s care?” as well as, “I would be blamed!” — and proceeding as if this is likely to happen. Of course, this discounts any realistic consideration of what might happen to the child once the wheels are set in motion. But then again, once those wheels are moving, it is no longer the doctor’s “fault” or even the state’s. They did what they were mandated to do, the end. Brain, compassion and nuance be damned. Rules rule! – L
79 Comments
As is the case with most atrocities in life, the intent is usually born from benevolence rather than malevolence.
Very true. C.S. Lewis’ quote comes to mind: “Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
Medical practitioners are not particularly stupid people.
The last time I checked (at the university where I work) Science and Med students are ridiculously bright….they have to be, because the competition is fierce.
Which means that it must be a pretty ferociously dumb set of laws that reduce all that intelligence down to mush.
“Mandated” reporting would be a real nice idea set in place to protect society from its own sillyness.
In a perfect world, this would be a good thing.
But in our current circumstances, the law is applied with the ferocity of a Cultural Revolution.
Abused, in other words.
What happens when professionals are no longer trusted?
People who really need help don’t get it.
People who don’t really need help at all………..are helped, anyway. (to their eternal grief.)
And the wisdom to know the difference?
Where exactly, did that go?
Interesting authorial name, isn’t it?
Drop the “e”……..and it speaks volumes.
I want our practitioners to feel empowered to make decisions based on concrete concerns, not fear of liability. The expectation that every person is responsible for any potential catastrophe is ridiculous. We can’t see every angle. We can’t prevent every atrocity. Taking children away or putting families through investigations in an abundance of over caution is avoidable. And the kind of avoidable we can and should prevent.
Maybe CPS and foster care services needs to do a comparitive analysis before removing children. When observing an imperfect parent and household, are the kids worse off at home than in the foster system?
Clean up your own home CPS before you investigate any others.
“But to make the statement that a child would be worse off with a parent who smokes marijuana than a foster home is odd: the statistics regarding foster homes are staggering. Foster kids are seven to eight times more likely to be abused than non-foster children, and nearly half will end up homeless when they age-out at eighteen. They are three times more likely to be put on psychotropic drugs, and they are seven times more likely to develop an eating disorder. They are more likely to have PTSD than veterans of war, and less likely to recover from it. They are more likely to become pregnant as teenagers. They are also 20 percent more likely to be arrested. And tragically, they are six times more likely to die than if they stayed even in an abusive family household.”
This is, IMO, the piece that get’s ignored through all of this. The state has done a really good job convincing us that kids are better off with them than with their slightly imperfect parents.
When our eldest child was a wee toddler, her shins were covered in bruises from running, playing, climbing and such. We had a wonderful pediatrician at the time; our doc was in her late 60s, she trained lots of the pediatricians in Chicago, everyone seemed to know and respect her.
I took our daughter for a regular check up, and I was so worried about the bruises and I apologized to the doctor. And do you know what she said? She said, “Dad, you don’t need to apologize. This is how a toddlers shins are supposed to look! It means she’s outside getting a lot of exercise and learning how to use her little arms and legs!” She added, “Kids always used to have theses kinds of bruises, but you see it less and less these days. It’s kind of sad, really.” Best doctor ever.
I’ve been following this topic for some time and am glad to see you’ve touched on it here, Lenore. It is an area of real concern.
Google up justina pelletier for a particularly egregious case of Massachusetts CPS going overboard.
“The state creates a vicious circle whereby its definition of “the well-being of the child” comes before the child’s true well-being.”
This struck me in particular because it can be applied to any law made for the “good of the children”. In all of the cases we read about where the children are taken away from their parents, it is rarely for anything besides following the letter of the law. The kids are fine, but because according to the law’s definition they’re not, they get taken away from their families which makes a less-than-perfect situation a whole lot worse.
Also, as far as drug testing pregnant women, let’s not forget that rates of drug use are about equal between the races, but black and Hispanic women are tested far more frequently and thus lose their kids more often.
Pennsylvania county CYS settles multiple lawsuits over removal of newborns from mothers who falsely test positive for opiates during delivery due to consumption of poppy seeds.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/west/2014/03/14/Lawrence-County-paid-160-000-to-settle-case-of-baby-taken-after-mom-ate-poppy-seeds/stories/201403140189
Not mentioned in the article: the medical procedures which resulted in the false positive tests are done without the knowledge or consent of the patient.
FREEEEEEEEDOM!
The cases of medical kidnapping that I have read about are when a child has a very rare disease and the doctor happens to be running a study that needs patients. Many times the parents have been coping with the illness for years and they run into a doctor who doesn’t like what the parents are doing- regardless of the child’s wellbeing. Other cases of medical kidnapping are when a child has cancer and the parents gave expressed a desire for a second opinion. The doctor has a huge sense of authority and calls CPS when his authority is questioned.
@ JP Merzetti
Medical practioners may be smart, but I’ve met a lot of doctors that could have benefitted from more compassion and common sense.
The points about foster care need to be repeated over and over. I don’t know what we think, but we seem to think that our country is just filled with foster homes that are literally ideal environments for children, and that children are far better off in one of these homes than in an even slightly less-than-ideal home.
That is not, of course, reality or anywhere close to it. Even very good foster homes end up being a poor substitute for a not-so-good home. This is not to diminish the work that foster parents do, but to recognize that they are only provide a better home for children if children are coming from home where they are truly in imminent, unquestionable physical danger.
This is not about the well-being of children, because in nearly all cases the child will be better off with his or her parents. It’s about punishing parents whose choices we don’t like by taking away their children. It in fact harms children in order to stick it to their parents. And that is not okay. We need to make sure people are aware of the reality of our foster care system, and stop thinking that “Take away their kids!” is the best solution every time we see a parent doing something we don’t like, if our real concern is actually child welfare.
Along the lines of whether we should or should not be drug testing parents, there was a great NY Times retro report a while back about the “crack baby” hysteria and how completely misguided it was:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/booming/revisiting-the-crack-babies-epidemic-that-was-not.html?_r=0
My dad was what was back then (1980s to mid-90s) called a school psychologist (later changed to educational advisor for some reason), in South Africa, working for the government, exclusively with “troubled” children, and mostly teens. He once said to me that almost anything is better than taking a child away from the family. As in, it has to be really, really, really REALLY bad before that option should be, extremely reluctantly, taken.
Another interesting thing he said was that it never solved any problems, never ended well, especially for the child but also for the family.
I just keep thinking that surely to gods some sanity must prevail somewhere, where it must get through that removing a child from its family is extremely traumatising and inflicts enormous damage on the child. In every agency I’ve ever heard of it is considered the last possible resort, if CPS has worked with the family extensively and are convinced the child is in immediate and serious danger. Wtf is wrong with the US? Boggles the mind.
@anonymousmom: That site always makes my computer go all daaaaisy daaaaisy give me yourrr answerrrr dooooo. Does the article point out that from a purely statistical viewpoint the real epidemic at the time was FAS, and that most victims of FAS were not “inner-city urban” (=brown)?
When my oldest was a baby, I had a doctor indirectly accuse me of purposefully starving my baby because she was underweight. She was a premie (5 weeks early) and started small, and it didn’t help matters that she took after my husband who was very skinny until he was 19 or so. I fed my kid regularly, and she eats pretty well, but she’s always been a very picky eater. Pediasure and the like almost always made her sick on her tummy because it was so thick, and she didn’t care for the taste thinned down with milk. We actually had to bring in pictures of my husband as a kid to show him that a slim frame ran in his family, and actually had to visit at nutritionist and detail what she normally ate in a day. We immediately changed pediatricians and while other doctors state that she is underweight they don’t accuse us of starving my kid. But this skinny little girl of 12 years now eats more than I do, and she’s still skinny. She keeps getting taller and taller now. I was so scared for a while that the doctor was going to report me and they would take my kid from me.
When did foster care become so much better than parental homes? No kid wants to be in foster care, and no parent wants their kid to enter them, because it’s so hard to get them back afterwards.
With regards to the idea of taking kids away from marijuana smokers, what about the case in Texas where the little girl was taking from her parents because the father smoked weed after she went to sleep, and the mother had seizures so the house was considered “unsafe,” and she DIED in foster care?? The parents were complaining about bruises on the girl when they had their visits, but nothing was done. If the father said he’d never smoke weed again and she was left in their care, she’d still be alive.
@Kathy – Out of curiosity, was your “underweight” baby breastfed? One of the problems in medicine is that the weight charts for babies is based on formula fed babies, and breastfed babies often show up as “underweight,” which often results in doctors advising moms to supplement with formula, which often results in disrupting the breastfeeding.
It seems like a simple enough solution, and it doesn’t require any changes to the way medical professionals (that is people whose primary job is treatment of sickness and injury) do their job now. The problem isn’t that innocent people are being reported.
The problem is in the investigation. They have an unbalanced fear response. The fear “what if I say this family is OK, and it’s really not?” is much greater in magnitude than the fear “what if I say this family is not OK, and it really is?”. This unbalanced fear response causes them to make too many mistakes.
Part of the problem is that obtaining accurate information. Obviously, if you ask somebody if they abuse their kids, the people who don’t abuse their kids say “no”. But so do the ones who do. The people whose kids have become injured through childlike actions tell the story of what their kid was doing, and why they couldn’t prevent it. The ones who abuse their kids tell a story of what their kid was doing, and why they couldn’t prevent it.
Like so many things, I blame TV. On TV medical shows, the protagonist medical professional gets clear and unambiguous signs that a child is being abused and, by the end of the hour, it turns out that the child was being abused and the protagonist is able to do something about it. People who base their understanding of the world from what they see on TV get the idea that child abuse cases are clear and unambiguous and can be wrapped up in an hour. Yeah, and TV cops always catch the bad guy, too. In real life, YMMV.
Three little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head, mama called the doctor and the doctor said, I’m sorry it’s obvious you’re an unfit parent, I’m calling CPS.
I’m shocked that it’s legal to give a patient a drug test – and report it – without the patient’s authorization. Why do doctors agree to do such a thing? I thought it was a bedrock principle of medical ethics that treatment is supposed to be for the benefit of the patient, not to mention confidential.
As several posters have mentioned, doctors frequently have huge egos, amd vast senses of authority. They really don’t like it if a patient talks back to them, for any reason. My Lady graduated from, amd Imdropped out of, Johns Hopkins. In the five years we hung around the Hopkims campus I think we met two pre-med students who I would allow to touch me with a stethocscope. Most of the rest desperately needed a swift kick in the balls.
“I’m shocked that it’s legal to give a patient a drug test — and report it — without the patient’s authorization. ”
There’s actually a specific crime (“Medical battery”) that refers to giving a patient treatment against their wishes, and that applies to treatment without informed consent in most cases (obviously, it is not illegal to treat an unconscious person, some other rules apply)
That said, testing of the urine probably doesn’t infringe that particular law. And doing anything because a court order tells you to do it won’t. (The “Seriously?” case for that one involved giving a person multiple rounds of laxatives and then exploratory surgery to detect and remove the drugs he wasn’t carrying at the time.)
People have this view of calling CPS and kids being taken into nice, loving foster homes. And that is the reality … for a very small number of the children in CPS custody. Even if it were true that all foster homes are great (they aren’t), there are not near enough of them. Many of my kids, especially the teens, not family placements are institutionalized in group homes. I currently have one teenage client who has been living in hotels with a “babysitter” for the last couple months because CPS can’t find a place for her.
Foster homes (and group homes) often require children to leave their communities and move hours away from their parents. This forces them to change schools and cuts their ties to their friends and extended family members. It also limits the amount of time that they can visit with their parents due to travel time.
Even family placements can cause trauma. In many cases, mom has kids by several different men. Siblings then get split up as they are handed off to fathers or paternal relatives. I have one heart-breaking case now where two very close siblings are about to be moved to separate states. Mom is still a train-wreck, but the dads have gotten their stuff together so each kid is being placed with his respective father – one in GA and the other in FL.
“No kid wants to be in foster care”
That is not true. I have a number of CPS cases where the child wants to stay in foster care rather than return home. Few kids want to enter foster care (although I have some who started the process themselves), but many like being there once they get out of the chaos of home.
What I don’t understand is, if a parent is deemed unfit to care for his/her own child over something like a broken leg, bruises, walking to the park “unsupervised” etc, how did foster parents get to be so perfect? I find that hard to believe that there’s a whole group of people in the US that get parenting exactly right, while the rest of us struggle and apparently fail much of the time in the eyes of the medical profession and the law.
“I’m shocked that it’s legal to give a patient a drug test — and report it — without the patient’s authorization.”
From what I understand, the paperwork you fill out when admitted to the hospital (especially to give birth) includes some statement about giving permission for the doctor to perform any tests that are “deemed necessary.” I found out that this includes federally mandated drug tests for every infant born in a hospital. I was informed by this by an admittedly paranoid woman who refused to sign a document giving this blanket permission but instead required the doctor to get permission for each procedure he did.
Now, I honestly don’t know how much I should trust this woman’s story but it seems like something the government would do, to “protect the children.” I have a friend who admitted in the delivery room that she had smoked marijuana that day and she got to bring her little girl home with nothing more than a couple of home visits to make sure everything was OK. I haven’t heard any other stories, but sometimes I wonder what I should sign in a hospital setting.
Many death row inmates are psychopaths. Although their behavior is easy to diagnose, (unfortunately after the fact) it’s hard to comprehend. People have raped, murdered and kept sex slaves chained in their basement have one thing in common. They have little/no remorse or empathy. Sometimes they can’t even understand what all the fuss is about or why their crime was so heinous! The part of the brain that feels empathy and remorse wasn’t developed. This is what psychopathy is. These people aren’t human. They’re cold blooded machines!
Bureaucracy is a mechanical system designed so that rules and procedures must be followed. This is made to fight corruption against the people that want special treatment. Empathy is the enemy because that’s how corruption can get in and rules can be bent. However we have gone so far to intentionally prune empathy from our system of government that it’s starting to reflect psychopathy. I’ve heard a few people describe CPS as cold blooded machines!
I make a scathing attack against CPS but I feel sorry for them. They’re between a rock and a hard place. We have all heard plenty of news stories, “6 YEAR OLD CHILD WAS HURT BECAUSE CPS DIDN’T RESPOND!”
The news sensationalizes and reports one side only BECAUSE there are so many viewers that demand this. They tune into the networks that show the most drama. They get sucked into ‘click bait’ when they’re online.
Before we start pointing fingers and blaming others, we need to take a hard look at ourselves to see if we’re contributing to the problem.
“The part of the brain that feels empathy and remorse wasn’t developed. This is what psychopathy is. These people aren’t human. They’re cold blooded machines!”
Way to dehumanize! Those aren’t people, they’re… wait, what? Cold-blooded machines? What does a machine need blood for?
Anyways, as much as 10% of the male population is psychopath (it seems to be sex-linked, far more common in males than in females), and most of them never get into any sort of trouble at all, much less death row..
I am not a mandatory reporter, and I am thankful for that. It heightens the level of suspicion I need before I make a report. It is easier to justify not making a report when not a mandatory reporter, than when you are.
I have made reports, but those times I have been quite sure things were wrong. Most of the reported children stayed with the family, but the family got the support they needed. We even got thanked, months later, by one of those families, but that is basically unheard of!
I am okay with forced vaccinations. Or even forced medical care for like those weirdo religious people that will let a child die of an easily fixed infection because they don’t believe in antibiotics. That stuff does need interventions.
At some point public health comes into play. And just humanity. Letting a child die of something easily fixable is cruel.
But things like optional surgeries or refusing certain medications for side effects or cost the government needs to back off. I have told many a doctor I will not buy the expensive name brand med they try to put my kid on. I tell them figure out a generic or we are walking. I had to argue with a psychiatrist for an hour about it once. He just wanted perks from the pharmacy company. He eventually caved.
” I have told many a doctor I will not buy the expensive name brand med they try to put my kid on. I tell them figure out a generic or we are walking. I had to argue with a psychiatrist for an hour about it once. He just wanted perks from the pharmacy company. He eventually caved.”
In most cases, you don’t have to have this discussion with your doctor, you can have it with your pharmacist. The pharmacist can, in many cases, substitute a cheaper alternative for you.
In any case, you should always ask a doctor if they are compensated in any way by pharmaceutical companies, or are engaged in any any studies, both of which are potentially a conflict of interest.
The horrible choice for parents:
Child is injured.Take to hospital? If yes, injury is treated, the there is a chance the state will destroy your family. If no, the state won’t destroy the family, but the injury won’t be treated.
Which is worse?
CPS truly is the most evil government organization there is.
I like a lot of what I read on this website but, not surprisingly, many of the commenters here tend to develop tunnel vision. This is why you see comments about kids being yanked away from “slightly imperfect” parents. Please. Yes, sometimes, or maybe even frequently, removal is gratuitous, and that shouldn’t happen. But there are genuinely abusive and negligent bio parents out there, and it is more common than we like to think. Just because CPS is boneheaded extremely often doesn’t mean there isn’t a need for getting children away from damaging homes. And I disagree that only extreme, imminent physical danger is the only justification for removal, but this is not the place for that. What none of you has considered is the possibility that children who are removed from damaging homes may benefit from the attention given to their welfare. Let me give my perspective on this.
I grew up in a big house in a wealthy town: all white, all professional. My parents declined to get rid of the family cat when it became clear I was allergic to it, so some time later I developed asthma. Again my educated parents (of 5 kids too close in age) declined to get rid of the cat (they knew full well I shouldn’t be around cats), and asthma ruined my life beginning at age 11. You name it, everything I had was ruined by living with uncontrolled asthma. Because it was a wealthy town there were no child advocates, so that was that. I was on my own. Period. And I can tell you that my parents not seeing my health as worth getting rid of the family pet for destroyed what might have been left of my self-esteem. You can’t imagine how radical it would have been for someone, anyone, to say “Hey, wait, this child is languishing. What can we do about it?” And if this had happened, and I’d gone into foster care (as I should have), yes, I wouldn’t have wanted it, and I would likely have missed my family, but I also would have had enough oxygen going to my lungs and my brain for the first time in a while! Just as importantly, the idea that I was worthwhile enough to warrant the state, or anyone, spending time and money on me–well, I cannot even imagine that. As it was, no one cared, no one lifted a finger, and none of my self-esteem was spared. As a result, on top of the educational, psychological and physical damage done, I’ve struggled with feelings of very low self-worth ever since.
Kids take lessons from the time and effort spent on them; it’s not lost on them! A kid at least worthwhile enough to have the state go to some trouble to get him or her away from a bad situation, well, it doesn’t solve the problem of missing one’s family, but it sends a powerful message that he or she deserves attention and the time, money and effort spent. If you don’t understand that phenomenon you shouldn’t be commenting here about the universal horrors of foster care.
We we’re reported to the hospital social worker when my son was 3…admittedly, he’d had 3 freak accidents with head injuries in less than two months, so I didn’t blame them. It wasn’t a big deal. We talked to the social worker. The pediatrician on call was called down and it happened to be my son’s usual doctor, who laughed when he saw who it was. They told me someone from DHS may contact me. It was one 10 minute call and that was it. I was lucky…the system worked the way it was supposed to
Megan,
You should take your unresolved parent issues on Dr. Phil, so you can blame mom and dad for all your problems. My grandfather was severely allergic to dogs, but had one all his life.
SOA,
You can stick your forced vaccinations and other forced medical treatment where the sun don’t shine. You go on about autonomy for kids bodies, yet say it is okay for the state to force chemicals into your body. Cannot have it both ways.
James,
Don’t know what corner you buy your drugs on, but pharmacists can get into serious crap for not filling the script as written. They can call and consult with the doctor, but in most places they cannot change anything.
“Don’t know what corner you buy your drugs on, but pharmacists can get into serious crap for not filling the script as written. They can call and consult with the doctor, but in most places they cannot change anything.”
Thanks for the advice, Warren, even though it’s well, wrong.
Here’s he accurate information, sorted helpfully by state:
http://pharmacistsletter.therapeuticresearch.com/pl/ArticleDD.aspx?nidchk=1&cs=&s=PL&pt=2&segment=1186&dd=220901&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
So, to repeat the CORRECT answer, in many cases you can ask your pharmacist to substitute a cheaper alternative.
“You can stick your forced vaccinations and other forced medical treatment where the sun don’t shine. You go on about autonomy for kids bodies, yet say it is okay for the state to force chemicals into your body.”
Yes, letting them die is SUCH a better answer. There’s a special place in Hell reserved for parents who would let their children die (often in pain) rather than submit to medicine.
megan..if you truely believe youwould have been better off in foster care your problems are much more than low self esteem. get help. maybe,just maybe it was you didn’t feel that you were getting your “fair share” of your parent’s attention. and what does being white and well off have to do with it. did they get you tested for allergies or asthma? did you ever mention this at school? or is this something you’ve been told by a therapist that you might be seeing? self esteem is earned not given, parents aren’t to blame for everything.. do you have any contact with your family now? i heard this once[can’t remember where] but it seems to fit for people with a martyr complex..get down off your cross, tear it down, build a bridge and get over it. you can’t change the past if you don’t like it but you can control the future. what happened is over and all the wishes won’t change that.
“Many death row inmates are psychopaths.”
I have no idea what this has to do with this topic, but no they’re not. I’ve dealt with a few actual psychopaths in my career and none of them are on death row. Although I don’t handle death penalty cases, I’ve represented people who ultimately got a death sentence and none were psychopaths. In fact, psychopaths are no more likely to commit a crime than anyone else. Most psychopaths live within the bounds of the law.
Warren, I don’t know how it is in Canada, but in the U.S., a pharmacist can substitute a generic version of the same drug unless the prescription specifically indicates “no substitutions.” Some pharmacies even have a policy of automatically substituting the generic unless the doctor requires or the patient requests the name brand, and that policy is posted.
Here they can and routinely sub, but they’re to consult with the doctor first. And there’s nothing wrong with that, because it puts everyone on the same page.
Good doctors don’t always prescribe meds for their initial/main purpose, and that is where the consult is needed.
James,
According to some people’s faith certain treatments damn them to hell. And until your science can prove that there is no immortal soul, your reservation is confirmed.
I laugh at those who preach herd immunity. It ranks up there with security theater.
“According to some people’s faith certain treatments damn them to hell.”
This is why we allow adults to choose to decline health-care, even life-saving healthcare. We do not, however, allow children to make such a determination, nor do we allow parents to make such a determination for their children.
“And until your science can prove that there is no immortal soul”
“My” science? Anyway, that’s not how science works.
“I laugh at those who preach herd immunity”
Of course you do. It’s science. Mine, apparently.
Need it explained? OK, it goes like this.
One way to be immune from a disease is to have a body that is capable of fighting off the disease-causing germ. Another way to be immune from a disease is to just not ever come in contact with the disease-causing germ in the first place. If nobody you come in contact with has the disease, your risk of catching the disease yourself is greatly diminished. Obviously, the first form is superior, since it follows you no matter where you go, but if there is something that keeps you from having that sort of immunity, the second is better than nothing. The problem is, it’s dependent on all the other people you come in contact with being immune themselves.
If you consider not vaccinating your kids because your doctor tells you there’s a specific risk associated with the vaccine, that’s decision-making based on facts. If you consider not vaccinating your kids because a former Playboy model tells you that vaccines cause autism, that’s decision-making based on fear. If you refuse to vaccinate your kids against polio because you believe it’s part of an American bioweapon targeted at Muslims, that’s decision-making based on fear. If you think you should make decisions about how to raise your kids based on fear, that’s your right (sigh), but this probably isn’t the right website for you.
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This reminds of the cases some years ago and the media firestorm regarding Satanic and sexual abuse in the daycare centers. In the first case or two it seemed natural to believe the news media. It was when I watched the case of one child being interviewed that it was obvious to me something is dreadfully wrong here. Needless to say the news media were going after another case after another. The way it was portrayed a person would have to sincerely worry whether or not to put their child in any kind of pre-school or daycare. It wasn’t until years later we found it all to be nothing more than Media HYPE. I think we have entered another phase with the media once again. Statistics don’t bear out the concern that is raised, and what Might happen. As it stands today there may still be some that were caught up in that witch hunt that haven’t been given justice. One was the McMartin pre-school, as I recall. A few years ago I searched that incident and at that time justice hadn’t yet come. As of today I don’t what the status is of all those who were caught up in that frenzy. It was a turning point that no longer would I believe what Any media source says until such time there was no doubt left.
As an anecdote to that. We have a local talk station where the hosts are Both “University Journalism Graduates”, if that means anything. This case wasn’t the first time. There happened to be a terrorist scare at some building and the hosts went all out along with all the TV media. It was said that a middle eastern type man entered and declared he had a gun. The Story went from there. But there were things that weren’t adding up. It wasn’t long and they found out that virtually everyone got their stories wrong and all of it was miscommunication. A little later down the road the “perpetrator” was on this radio show. To my literal Amazement this host made it sound like he wasn’t a party to the hype. Well, I wrote a stern email disputing the facts and quoted what he said and mentioned other occurrences where the same thing happened. The ironic thing is sometime later the station changed their entire lineup and NOW they no longer accept emails. How convenient. This is just one example of media lies and distortions and I suspect there are countless others. What is telling about this story is the fact these two people will time and again use that Journalism degree to give a sense of authority and trustworthiness. Neither of which is borne by the facts.
Isaiah Rider was taken from his mother into foster care after asking for a second opinion on his medical problems. After he was put into a foster home he was raped and sodomised how was that better for him than being able to get another doctor to look at his case?
“common sense”
Wow.
Donna: “In fact, psychopaths are no more likely to commit a crime than anyone else. Most psychopaths live within the bounds of the law.”
I wonder if they meant “sociopaths.” (Although even so, I don’t know for a fact if that statement would be true either.)
James,
As long as the earth has been around species have been killed off, and herds have been culled. If you honestly believe that our species is smarter and stronger than nature, then you are the fool I know you to be.
And until you can prove beyond any doubt that the immortal soul does not exist, you have, and the state has no right to force people to submit to things against their faith. And listen Moron, I never said anything about not accepting any medical treatment based on the opinion of a celebrity. Nice try Idiot at twisting words and meanings, but you failed.
As far as vaccines go, the only ones we do not use are flu and chicken pox, based on the advice of our family doctor. I will take his advice over any, each and every time.
One thing arrogant morons like you need to know is that Mother Nature always wins. Always. Mother Nature has been around for millions and millions of years, humans only a blink of an eye in comparison. And one day Momma is gonna get ticked of with humans, and with one good shake get rid of us like a bad case of fleas. She’s done it before, she will do it again. Species go extinct everyday, and humans are just another species. To think we are better than all the rest is simple human arrogance.
One day Momma Nature is going to wake up, be angry and wipe humans from the planet. How will nature do this? With a virus. Most effective way. And our arrogance is making it easy, with vaccines and medications for everything. Creating a weaker species, by not allowing our immune systems to naturally exercise itself, and by keeping the sick and elderly alive a lot longer than nature ever intended.
“As long as the earth has been around species have been killed off, and herds have been culled.”
True enough. Not exactly sure how this fact applies to, well, anything, but compared to what follows, it is at least lucid..
“And until you can prove beyond any doubt that the immortal soul does not exist, you have”
I’m assuming there’s a typo here, and I HAVEN’T just proved that the immortal soul does not exist. I’m not entirely sure why you think I’m trying to prove that the immortal soul does not exist, or why I would want to, or why that has anything to do with providing life-saving medical care to sick kids, but… I no longer expect you to make sense. I expect you to rant and spout gratuitous insults. (My working hypothesis is that you work in a service-oriented job, and can’t yell at people, so you have to come home and do it on the Internet. Either that, or it gives you some sort of sexual satisfaction.)
“the state has no right to force people to submit to things against their faith.”
Except that it does, and always has, and always will. Besides the fact that government CAN force people to submit to things against their faith, there’s the fact that children do not yet have all the rights of adulthood, and so they’re even more restricted. Other than that, you’re absolutely correct.
“And listen Moron, I never said anything about not accepting any medical treatment based on the opinion of a celebrity.”
Um, OK. Did someone say you did?
“Nice try Idiot at twisting words and meanings, but you failed.”
Darn. Now I won’t get my “twisting words and meanings” merit badge!
“As far as vaccines go, the only ones we do not use are flu and chicken pox, based on the advice of our family doctor. I will take his advice over any, each and every time.”
Um, OK. Good for you! Although, I can say with authority that you definitely want the one for shingles. Nobody should have to suffer through a bout of shingles.
“One thing arrogant morons like you need to know is that Mother Nature always wins. Always. Mother Nature has been around for millions and millions of years, humans only a blink of an eye in comparison. And one day Momma is gonna get ticked of with humans, and with one good shake get rid of us like a bad case of fleas. She’s done it before, she will do it again. Species go extinct everyday, and humans are just another species. To think we are better than all the rest is simple human arrogance.”
OK
“One day Momma Nature is going to wake up, be angry and wipe humans from the planet. How will nature do this? With a virus. Most effective way. And our arrogance is making it easy, with vaccines and medications for everything. Creating a weaker species, by not allowing our immune systems to naturally exercise itself, and by keeping the sick and elderly alive a lot longer than nature ever intended.”
Yikes.
Gratuitous insult count:
Moron:2
Idiot:1
Stupid:0
Fool: 1
Warren I want to point out one thing you said-you said something about Mother Nature and that old people are being allowed to live too long……..so does that mean you hope your mother dies soon? Since she is probably getting up there in age and all. How old is she? 70? Older? So I guess that means you are fine with not getting her any medical treatment because after all she is getting too old and we are letting old people live too long. Will you do the same for yourself in that age? Not see the doctor. Not get medical care and just let yourself die off for the betterment of the planet and Mother nature?
Because I don’t believe that for a second. You will cry like a little girl when your mom dies and probably be begging doctors to save her. Most people do. If you are one of the few that really means it, Kudos to you but I will believe it when I see it. I can’t tell you how many times I go to a church and hear them begging for prayers for their 90 year old mother to make it through surgery or get better. People never want to let go. Ask any medical doctor. Sometimes people will ignore the doctor’s recommendations to let them go and make the doctors keep doing life saving things to prolong life longer than it needs to be.
Because most people are pansies about watching their beloved elders die. So come back and update us when your mother gets sick in her old age and let us know if you asked them to save her or you let them put her down. I am curious to see how it turns out.
James,
Sorry, I am not trying to be insulting. Just pointing out the obvious.
Your arrogance shows. You are an animal, part of the herd. As far as nature is concerned you have no more right to live than an ant. The human herd believes it has the right to be around forever. That is a joke. The earth does not work that way. One day Momma Nature is going to hit the reset switch and it will be over for our herd. Life will always go on, just not life as we know it. If you think, even for a minute that our intelligence and advancements make humans immune from nature, then not only are you arrogant, you are a moron.
Shingles? Not worried about it. Have a natural immunity to the chicken pox, and a healthy active immune system, as well as a healthy lifestyle. Don’t need to worry bout the flu either, none of my family has had a flu shot in over ten years.
As far as my profession goes don’t you worry. I am doing just fine with a reputation in my area second to none.
SOA,
You are still as idiotic as ever. My family is all on the same page. Nice try though. Quality of life far out weighs just living.
Any other stupid questions you need answered?
“Sorry, I am not trying to be insulting.”
Maybe you need to try actively trying not to be insulting. You know, so the VERY NEXT paragraph wouldn’t end “you are a moron”, and the next comment you make doesn’t start with “You are still as idiotic as ever”, which, I’m sure you will be surprised to hear, some people MIGHT consider insulting.
“Shingles? Not worried about it. Have a natural immunity to the chicken pox”
So does literally every other person who ever has had, or ever will have, shingles.
I was not talking just about quality of life you said getting too old. So what qualifies as “Too old”? when are you going to tell your mom to stop eating and drinking and let herself die? What age?
SOA,
The moment she starts talking or acting like you.
Oh poor James, you left out the healthy lifestyle and healthy immune system. You ever want to check out just how healthy I am, come for a visit, so you can put up or shut up.
“come for a visit, so you can put up or shut up.”
Where, please?
We can compare risk factors for shingles.
Look, us regular posters and lurkers KNOW who is an idiot here, who needs to get a life, whatever. Pointing these things out ad nauseum just makes people swear off Free Range Kids (as I did once a couple years ago when folks got nasty). Let’s keep it on topic, people. Lenore might appreciate it.
@Megan – that’s sad. I’m not sure how asthma ruins your life though. As for self-esteem, a lot of us had low self-esteem as teens….it almost goes with the territory of adolescence. I can’t believe you really think you’d have been better off in a foster home – just because your parents didn’t take your medical condition particularly seriously.
IF you have come to the conclusions you have about your parents via therapy, then please do consider changing therapists. This one sounds like more harm than good. ..
Hineata – but they had a cat! A cat! Obviously she’d be better off in a foster home than a house with a cat. Surely no government agency would have placed her in a house that had a cat, since they’re always perfectly logical and rational, and all foster homes are idealistic and perfect.
I don’t know If you my child has bad asthma of course I would get rid of the family pet they were allergic to. I would also not smoke around them. I would also look into installing hardwood flooring since its better for allergies and asthma. Oh wait my kids do have asthma and I did install hardwood floors and we don’t have pets and I don’t smoke. Seems common sense parenting and unselfish parenting.
My husband has asthma….as does one of my kids. El Sicko gets treatment like an asthmatic although she isn’t what you would call a classic asthmatic. We still manage a cat, 2 rabbits and 3 chickens, at the insistence of the 2 asthmatics. Asthma is manageable, and extremely common here. Most asthmatics live normal lives.
I still can’t fathom it causing self-esteem issues, except to the extent that everything causes self-esteem issues for teens. It’s just another very common condition. Just deal with it and get on with life.
“I still can’t fathom it causing self-esteem issues”
You can’t see why being told “yes, well, we’d rather have a cat in our house than have you be healthy” might cause someone to develop self-esteem issues? “It’s not that we don’t value you, honey, it’s just that we really, REALLY want a cat.”
Yeah, there’d have to be other issues in the home to make me think foster care was a better option, but the cat was presented as the sum total of all the problems, it was offered as emblemmatic of them.
All cases of asthma are not equal. My kids have a pretty mild case. They basically just have to take singulair every day and when they get a cold or the seasonal allergies start acting up they need multiple nebulizer treatments.
Other kids have it 10 times worse with needing inhalers all day long and asthma attacks that require hospitalization.
It is stupid to treat all cases of asthma as the same.
SOA,
What qualifies as too old? Too old is when they become a constant drain on resources. Human beings use vast amounts of resources on sick, injured and the old, when we are 100% certain that they will never get better, that their condition will only get worse. We are the only species that does that.
I don’t care if you think that is cold and heartless, it is the truth. Everyone thinks that all our medical advances have made us stronger as humans. I am not the only one that says we are actually weaker now than ever. From disorders, to conditions to syndromes our species is weak. And it is getting weaker with every needle and pill we put in our system.
No longer is it the fit and smart that survive, the weak and stupid get to live to.
@James – it’s unlikely that simply getting rid of the cat would have made her healthy. And people didn’t used to worry about every silly thing. …the parents might have concluded that just getting rid of their cat would be ineffective if she was still exposed to other cats, which is likely. Also they had more children than just Megan. …maybe the others loved the cat.
We don’t stop our other kids doing or having things because one of ours has a medical condition. Actually we don’t adjust it for any of the three who have ‘conditions’. If we had a child with leukemia or something we might/would no doubt adjust for a period of time, but not otherwise.
And SOA, what is stupid is treating asthma like it’s the end of the world. Of course there are different levels of it. We have 3 different levels in the one house. One simply deals with the symptoms as they arise. It is oneof the most treatable conditions around. Again, just treat it and get on with it and stop feeling sorry for yourself. ..
A reason I am so passionate about this is that, as I have stated before, we did not find out about El sicko’s condition until she was 12, and so she never was prevented from doing anything by anyone, whereas other families, even in NZ, unnecessarily adjust their family lives to fit one child. The condition is treatable, asthma is treatable, etc, etc. What is needed is for people to just get on with life and stop treating medical conditions as barriers. Or, heaven help me, sources of self-esteem.
I’m 49 and still have some acne. And crooked teeth thanks to unfortunate incorrect treatment as a teen by a dentist who was a mate of my dad. And I got over that and got on with it. Because it is minor…minor. ..minor! And part of being a functioning adult is to get over the maybe questionable things your parents did.
“it’s unlikely that simply getting rid of the cat would have made her healthy.”
I don’t know, and I don’t care… what’s at issue is the way it was perceived, which seems to be “you value the cat more than me.”
“the parents might have concluded that just getting rid of their cat would be ineffective ”
Yes, they might’ve. But they didn’t communicate this to the child, if that was their logic.
“Also they had more children than just Megan. …maybe the others loved the cat”
That doesn’t make it any better… it just changes the narrative to “you let the siblings keep a cat even though it was making me miserable. You valued their happiness over mine.”
You find it trivial. I can see where it might not have been.
“We don’t stop our other kids doing or having things because one of ours has a medical condition.”
That’s a choice you make. If one of the kids has a dietary disorder, do you keep feeding them the food they cannot process because the other kids are getting it?
James,
How it is perceived? How about we stick to exactly how it is. She had asthma, big whoop. She did not like the fact that life wasn’t all about her, and now she is blaming mom and dad for it. All this crap started with the self esteem movement, and people are blaming their parents and family for ALL their problems. When they should be pulling up their big girl panties and taking ownership of their lives and moving on.
Your compassion is touching.
Don’t have compassion for those that do not take control of their lives, and blame others for all their problems.
Sucks to be her, grow up, move on and stop whining. You on the other hand James, really need to get a life, the amount of activity seen on this sight tells me you have a very lonely, pathetic life.
“the amount of activity seen on this sight tells me you have a very lonely, pathetic life.”
says the guy who counts my comments and checks each timestamp…
Yes I did. You see Moron, I am interested in human behaviour. And when one scrolls down a set of comments, and sees some idiots name repeatedly appear, I got curious.
Now you can deny it all you want, I really don’t care. But you have been figured out.
No wife, no kids, no job, all alone. You spend your entire day online trying desperately to boost your self-esteem. And the more you try, the more you fail. You really need to put the laptop away, get out and talk to real people. Just please treat them with more respect than you do here.
The self-esteem is boosted by trolling and getting a rise out of people. Warren, you have to stop reacting to and engaging him.
Beth,
You’re right. What I am trying to figure out is just what disorder he suffers from. Always having to copy the other person’s comment first before commenting himself. It is an obvious marker, but for which one?
She’s right, your obsession with me has got to end.
Little Alex Hill was taken into foster care because her parents smoked dop and it was considered unsafe. The foster mother beat her to death. How was that safer? Isaiah Rider is in foster care because his mother asked for a second opinion he will be 18 in a month but they want him marked as special needs so he can’t leave and go home how is this better?