Outrage of the Week: Mom HANDCUFFED for Tardy Kids

If you are in Virginia (or any other state, I believe) and you have children with those DIAGNOSED conditions (they MUST be OFFICIALLY diagnosed by a physician) your children should have what’s called a “504” plan in place. If they do, you should’nt have any problems. Our son had a chronic health condition when we were in Virginia and he missed on average 2 WHOLE days of school a week for more than 1/2 his 3rd grade year. Yes, we met with school officials and had to show we were being “proactive” in helping him keep up (we had to get him tutors for those subjects he was understandably struggling in). But with that plan in place, they couldn’t legally mess with us. Is your children’s 10 minutes of tardy as bad as my son’s attendance record? No. But you need to also cover yourself legally if you haven’t already. And if you have already done this plan, BRING IT UP IN COURT. It could be taken as an ADA violation that the school is harassing you over your childrens’ disabilities. Above all: GET A LAWYER who understands these medical issues. AND GOOD LUCK!!

Somebody in authority needs to be disciplined over this.

Way to traumatize “vulnerable” little kids.

When I was a kid, I was tardy a lot because (a) I walked to school, (b) my mom worked and (some years) left before we did, (c) there were 4-6 of us (depending on what year), and (d) there were just too darn many fun distractions in the morning! And when I was in high school, it was because homeroom was stupid and I didn’t see the point of rushing to get there. But you know what? I was still a top student, had no “other” behavior issues, and managed to grow up literate and competent (and even employable, depending on the job! I’m still not a morning person).

My own kids are 5 and it is their responsibility to get ready for school in the morning. Not because I’m a lazy mom, but because I am making the effort to develop their competence. So sometimes we are late to school – a couple of minutes here and there. I’m not going to dress my capable kids just to save a minute. That one minute saved would result in hours of catering to a spoiled, “helpless” brat. Blah. And no, I won’t get started an hour earlier; did I mention I’m not a morning person?

So should I start telling my kids that if they don’t tie their shoes faster, Mommy’s gonna go to jail?

@SKL My parents used the same method with homework and me. It was on me to make sure it is getting done and that I did not forgot anything needed for school.

Worked out the same way as with you and tardiness – sometimes forgetting the homework or having less good grade because it was done on the last possible moment. Otherwise no problems and a good student.

Parent sometimes really know best which trick works on their children :).

There are clearly circumstances here that should cater for some minor tardiness, but even if there wasn’t, what happened to good old-fashioned detention? You don’t punish a parent for being late and you certainly don’t serve them a court date. Also, if one parent drives 4 kids to school, you can’t blame the kids for being late either; they are dependant on the parent and all the other kids to arrive on time.

Also, it’s laughable she had to meet with a truancy officer. The kids were in school and not playing truant.

This is INSANITY! I could cry at this inhumane power play dressed up as child benefit. Perhaps it is proof of the failure of the USA education system that ‘educated’ persons will fail their community so badly. What is the point of maintaining a system with these outcomes.

Sera,

You can’t do that here. No child is allowed to be at school more than half an hour before the bell. You have to get child care for that. And pay for it.

We have had issues with lateness for both children – one because his carpool person was always running late which he hated (he likes to be on time). The other because he is just like that and not a morning person. The first issue we sorted with the teacher and the second resulted in a string of detentions (at our request – dragging a teen who is unwilling out of bed is difficult!). We hope for better results this year as the carpooling is at an end (he is first year high school and this school is in walking/biking distance) and the other is now in the senior part of the school – maybe he will start to show some responsibility having grown up a lot over the holidays.

In either case I can’t see any benefits in blaming us for what we can’t help. The blame belongs to the carpool in the first instance (and we are too poor to use any other system) and the child in the second instance (using physical force on a child who is bigger than you isn’t the way to go – or any child actually).

Another thought – the threat of handcuffs for you might lead to some interesting power struggles with older children – blackmail anyone. I’m not saying that every child would see this but there are certainly some who would.

viv in nz

I was often late for school due to my bus. We had the farthest out bus run, and one of the wheelchair kids, AND various things kept happening to our poor bus (It broke down, it got into an accident, it spun around on some ice..) I think one year we had 4 different buses due to the actual vehicle breaking down.

It would have been very funny if our bus driver had been arrested for making us late, but since it was a known issue to the school, nothing ever happened to us.

This is so insanely stupid! So is this mother really going to get her kids to school on time when she’s in JAIL??? Seriously, a few minutes late here and there is meaningless considering pretty much NO teaching occurs in the first 20 minutes of school anyway as the kids get settled in for the day.

When my kids were in public school it was 15 miles away and I had to drive them. A lot can happen with traffic in 15 miles but more often than not, if we were running late it was because my ADHD kid had decided he wasn’t getting in the car. When he was 5 I could still manhandle him into the car seat. By 6 and 7 that just wasn’t possible any more so sure, there were days where we had to play a negotiating game or just wait it out. Sometimes he wouldn’t get OUT of the car once we got to the school. Pulling your kid out of the car by his toe nails in the carpool line just isn’t socially acceptable which left little choice but to go park in the parents lot and go back to negotiating or wait it out again then walk him in calmly like everything was just fine even if I was mad as a wet hen and had sweat soaked through my suit.

But if I had been arrested for those times? Holy moly, a wet hen wouldn’t begin to explain my anger! I’d be insisting one of those people go to my house and get that kid to school on time 5 days in a row without using any physical force! School was a total nightmare for that poor kid and forcing him to go every day was pure torture for both of us.

@ Knutty Knitter

Perhaps you’re right. I’m probably far too used to my country’s government being a bit better about this sort of thing (as opposed to: “here are the rules, and if you’re too poor/disabled/single to comply, to hell and to jail with you”). I grew up in a rural area with no public transport. The government, then, supplied a bus (via the school) that picked up all of the kids that went to my school in that area and then dropped them to school. This was one bus over a small area for my small, rural public school, and multiple buses (some were public transport, but most were specifically school buses) for my larger high school that was in a nearby town. If you caught public transport buses to school, you were issued a student pass that got you a discount (usually somewhere between 50-100%). If you had to pay your childrens’ bus fares, and you were poor, you could get financial assistance that meant that bus fares were free. The school was “open” (had teachers etc there) long before 9:00 when classes started, usually because some kids had early classes (at 8:00 or so). Although, even if it weren’t, there’s no law preventing kids from hanging around on the nearby streets until it does…

I’m pretty sure that the Australian government puts in a lot of work and money to ensure that primary and secondary education for children can, in fact, be free (or very close to). Financial assistance is available for uniforms, school supplies and transport costs. School fees are optional. If that wasn’t the case, the families who couldn’t afford to send their children to school would end up in a perpetual poverty cycle (little education = little money = little education).

I don’t know what would happen with the teenager who won’t get out of bed, though. It IS the parents’ responsibility to use whatever (legal) discipline is necessary to get their children to school, but if that’s impossible because the parent doesn’t actually have any sort of discipline measure that they can use (i.e. there are no privelages or objects that can be taken away), or they won’t because the child becomes dangerously violent, the only real recourse is police intervention.

Christi, I can understand that being a teacher sometimes can be annoying, but does being late to school really justify an arrest? What does this have to do with “standards”. What educational effect should this arrest have, it’s nothing but power play and punishment. We’re not talking about about abuse not even about neglect – they are late, period. An arrest is far beyond any sense of proportion.

Sera: I agree with you that it’s the parents’ responsibility to assure that the children are at school on time – until a certain age depending on the length of the schoolway and the childrens personality, then it’s the childrens’ responsibility. And what legal discipline should I use as a parent to get my child to school?

Katrin- Having worked for 5 years in a German school, I can first say that, unless you have lived in America in the last 10 years and been involved with the education system here, you can not even begin to imagine how different it is from Germany. The way education is set up here, having a student who shows up habitually even 10 minutes late is putting the entire class at a disadvantage, and teachers here are held accountable for every minute of every school day- there is literally a chart on the board in just about every classroom in our state that lists at exactly what moment you are teaching what subject and exactly what students will be learning. (And I don’t mean that it says 8 AM- Math. It says 8 AM- Math- Mini-lesson- Review Double Digit addition up to 40. 8:10-Math-Independent Practice- Students use math toolkits to replicate problems form the Mini-Lesson 8:30-Math- pg. 125- Adding double digit numbers. Students will work alone and in pairs to practice double digit addition. Students will be able to complete double digit addition problems with 80% accuracy. You get the idea…) Teachers can not just tell that child to sit down and catch up. You are then reintroducing the entire lesson to that child, leading them through the steps necessary to catch up. Then another child walks in 5 minutes later and you are doing it all over again. AND THEN a supervisor walks in to evaluate you on the spot and what you are doing with that child does not match what it says on the board. A

Also, that same parent who is dropping their child off late every day is NOT going to care one lick when you try to explain to the parent that the child has to make up some extra work because they were late or that the child is not doing well because, by being late every day, they are missing the equivalent of about an hour’s worth of teaching every day, in addition to the time that they are taking from other students. It is not that it is “annoying” to be a teacher, it is that we are being held to superhuman standards, and parents are taking little to no responsibility for their own children. Parents waltz children in and out of school for whatever reasons they please, parents hover over teachers, send a multitude of unnecessary e-mails and steal time from teachers at every turn, and then complain about teachers’ performance.

Much of what parents are doing today DOES amount to educational neglect, and at 5 “lates” or “absences” I do think it is perfectly fair to bring a parent in to meet with school officials and truant officers and, while it does seem extreme, I can’t say whole heartedly that a few arrests aren’t warranted in cases that the schools deem to be egregious. No, it wouldn’t have worked this way 50 years ago when kids were responsible for walking themselves to school, but the education system we have no in NO WAY mirrors the educational system we had back then. The two have evolved in quite a disharmonious way, and the sad result is that parents feel entitled to take complete and total advantage of the educational system and lateness is just one microcosmic example of the ways in which they are doing that. Of course, I feel that at the High School level it is a different story– the officers should be coming for the teenagers themselves and not the parents. But, in the US, elementary and middle school aged parents are responsible for getting their children to school on time, and if the children are not getting there it is the child’s fault. It is 100% the parent’s fault and, for that, the parents should have to answer to someone.

As a teacher, it is more than irritating to deal with chornic tardiness. We get started, and then the tardies come in to disrupt. I don’t understand parents like this, and I don’t understand friends like this. There are articles that analyze those who are chronically late and it shows that they believe that their time is more important than everyone else’s. They always have a ton of excuses as to why they can’t be on time. And guess what, the people who ARE on time could use the same excuses, but they choose not to. They choose to respect everyone else’s time and arrive on time. If hundreds of other parents CAN overcome and get their kids to school on time, why can’t you?

These will be the same kids who can’t hold a job when they are adults because they have a zillion excuses as to why they are late. Then, when they are fired, it will always be the company’s fault for not understanding why they are late.

There are two sides to every story, and unfortunately, the school often has to take the abuse and not defend its actions. I don’t have a problem with them taking legal action against the parents. At the elementary school level it IS the parent’s responsibility. Why would they use detention on the child when it is the parent’s fault?

Finally, I currently teach college, and I hear every excuse in the book as to why they can’t get to class on time (or at all); why they can’t complete their papers, etc. But here is my problem: I have four kids, I teach, I volunteer, and I have MS. There are days it takes everything I have to get out of bed and get done what I have to do, but I do it. There are days that I have graded papers in a hospital bed, but I did/do it. I tell my students that they can either USE their excuses or learn to OVERCOME their excuses. We all have them; it is how we choose to deal with them.

@Christi – here in TX it’s 3 unexcused absences – meaning if my daughter forgot to get her note from the orthodontist, that would be unexcused. I ended up having to change an important doctors appointment up in Houston, because taking my daughter out of school for the last hour would mean an unexcused absence, and she already had one. The principal told me at 3, you go to court, and have to explain to a judge why she was late/not in a class at a certain time. Orwellian – for THREE.

When we had them in private school, we would go for a week somewhere, all we did was get their work ahead of time, and take it with us, so they could work on their schoolwork, and score it when we returned.

I do see your point, when I was teaching preK/K, we had a mother who almost every day would bring her kids late – including dropping the 3 year old off in the parking lot and dtiving off before he went into the building – this was a day they were late – one of the people down the street brought him back to the school, as he was walking down the road, and being he was wearing a uniform, they figured he was missing from school.

I don’t hover over my kids, but I was like “Really? a 3 year old?”

A good portion of the time they just didn’t show up for school. But there is a world of difference between being late, and just blowing it off totally.

Forgive me if I’m repeating myself. Sounds like a bit of a “loose start time” should be in the IEP. Best to you as you face the court system. 🙁

Wow … I hope they don’t catch up with me. My son has been tardy 8 days since school started back in January … Not counting last semester. Of course, that’s because our district chooses to run counter to the research noting that 7:00 a.m. Starts don’t work for most middle/high schoolers, and I choose the battle of getting the ~20 hours of homework done each week. There are only so many battles parents can fight on behalf of the school. I’m normally an on-time person, and i feel for the teachers, but I choose not to ruin my entire family’s day starting at 5:30 a.m. over this one.

Diane- I can see why that would seem unreasonable, especially for a high school age child. Once kids hit HS, in my opinion, they are responsible for their attendence and school work. Bringing parent to court there seems unnecssary.

Just to draw attention to one thing you said– (and I have worked in a private school) “When we had them in private school, we would go for a week somewhere, all we did was get their work ahead of time, and take it with us, so they could work on their schoolwork, and score it when we returned.”

I wonder if you know how much extra time it takes your child’s teacher to put together and then score that work for your child alone. To get all of the work together ahead of time for a single student and then to score it in isolation is adding at least 3 hours of work to that teacher’s week for your child alone. In a private school, teachers often have the luxury of fewer students and, therefore, more time. In a public school environment, that is nearly impossible for a teacher to do without then cutting corners in other places to get it all together. This is not written to criticize– I understand whole heartedly why parents need to do this, I honestly do, but just to raise awareness. I doubt most parents think, “Wow, our vacation is costing my daughter’s teacher her evening at the gym or 3 hours with his own family.”

“The parents are the adults in the situation. They are the people who decided to have children.”

Okay, wow, so if you have kids, and then a difficult situation crops up, and it takes a few months to get a handle on things, you should be arrested if your kids wind up being late to school more than a half dozen times.

I agree that there’s room for skepticism here and we shouldn’t necessarily take the mom’s account hook, line, and sinker that the fault is all or mostly on the school’s side. But to go to the other extreme and assume that it must just be tough luck if any situation comes up that creates these kinds of issues — well, that seems more than a little harsh.

I have the image of Paul Blart, Truancy Officer, in my head now handcuffing bad moms for late drop offs.

I just hope they don’t sent the Lunch Box Inspectors out next, to point out the nutritionally deficient lunches. They’d be calling me in for what we threw in today (no bread due to lack of grocery shopping- saltine crackers with peanut butter and a butter knife!) Sometimes you run out of groceries. Sometimes there is traffic, or you child decides he needs to drop a deuce as you’re leaving for school. Nobody’s perfect, and yes, tardiness DOES disrupt classrooms. But schools are for learning and education, not prisons where minor infractions are punished so severely.

If a kid dropping a deuce before leaving makes him tardy for school, I would think that the parents need to be leaving the house earlier. My bus came at around 7:30 a.m.; I was ready to be out the door at 7:15 to go and stand at the end of the driveway. If at 7:15, I suddenly needed to use the bathroom, I had a 15-minute window to take care of business and still get to the end of the driveway on time. I have carried that over into my adulthood; if I know it takes me 30 minutes to get somewhere, I tend to leave 45 to 50 minutes before I need to be there to account for traffic, train problems, etc. At worst, I’m waiting outside in the cold for 20 minutes. At best, I get 15 minutes to shop at a nearby store.

Thinking of this mom today, her day in court. May everyone’s best sense prevail!

I think that as parents we have an obligation to do our best to get our children to school on time, but there has to be some understanding that each family is different. Some families have disabilities to deal with, others have many kids and only 1 mom, and others, like myself, have a stubborn child that sometimes just won’t hurry up. When I was in elementary school my mom would threaten to take me to school in my pajamas..I was expected to be ready to leave with her at the designated time, and whether I was ready or not, I did! When I got older, the rule was that she was leaving at 7:40, with me or without me. Of course, I tested her, and when she refused to take me after she returned from dropping off the other kids, I responded by refusing to walk (it was pretty far!) so I just stayed home. When my mother refused to call in to excuse the absence, I was rewarded for my stubbornness by the school with a weeks worth of detention, which also meant I missed my ride home and had to walk home for a week. I didn’t try that again!

Common sense, not so common any more! I think the schools need to be our partners in teaching our kids how the world works. I would venture to say that more times than not, the reason for the tardy is the childs fault, not the parents fault, so blaming the parent for the kids not being on time does not go very far in teaching the children responsibility. Even children with disabilities need to learn responsibility to the best of their capability, and the punishment should be appropriate to the childs age and understanding, but should most definitely be aimed at the child, not the parent in most cases.

I’m so tired of the “one size fits all” remedies to such silly non-problems. Have we, as a society, become so busy that we can’t deal with people on a personal level rather than a stupid bureaucracy method, which doesn’t go very far at all in solving most problems, and when did we stop treating everyone like individuals and more like cattle?? It drives me crazy!

Lisa- part of the problem with the education situation today is that anyone would even THINK TO ASK what the school did to help get the children to school on time. It is the parents’ job to get them there. It is the school’s job to make sure they are educated and remain on school grounds until dismissal. The farthest a school should have to go is to offer a school wide incentive (you make to school on time every day for a year and you get to attend a pizza party on the last day) or a school wide punishment (after the second late day in a month there is a consequence).

Arresting a mother or even meeting with truant officer for childrens tartiness is mindboggling. I certainly hope the judge has a better brain in thier head than the school officials. I can only imagine the trauma this has cuased this family. Yep being late is a disruption and annoying…but it’s not a reason to arrest someone!!!

20, 30, 40 years ago this wouldn’t have been even thought of much less have happened. Of course we didn’t have a policy in place to script every single moment and day of the school year then either. We didn’t have imppossible to meet, panic and stress inducing plocies like NCLB. We had teachers that taught how, what and when their students needed to be taught, actually meeting the students educational needs. Heck we had recess and understood the educational importance of it for everyone involved. Now teachers have scripts and federal guideleines and massive testing six times a year that require massive test preping for weeks prior to each test. We have zero tolerance/thinking policies that suspend kids for hugging and drawings or weapons, arrest five year olds for sexual harrasment, moms for not getting kids to school on time………… What used to be common sense and easily worked out between parents and administrators for a medical issues that caused some school issues now has to have a legal document to do that working out. In this case it appears jail time is what the school sees as reasonable :(.

A bit about 504, they are often the best kept secret in school districts. Parents have to know about them and the reasons for them, in order to request one and schools have to be cooperative with setting them up and following them. So many schools will go to great lengths to avoid implimenting them, even simply telling parents they don’t do them at that school (which is illegal). Parents often don’t want to rock the boat or don’t understand that something such as a 504 or IEP is a legal protection for their child and the school.

Of course tardieness and abscences due to medical issues are educationally relevant and should be addressed in 504 and IEPs. Medical issues and learning disabilities cause problems with functioning in an educational setting, functioning like getting there on time or at all.

Plenty of people went through their entire school life getting their on time, because mom or dad forced it and dragged them their, only to be complete failures at getting anywhere else on time the rest of their lives because they have no iinternal drive or skills to do so. Plenty of people that have blown off school or missed a lot and were often tardy have gone on to be great successes in real life with no problem getting somewhere they want to be on time.

Certainly tardiness and missing days should be frowned upon for a a whole lot of reasons. Exeptions, understanding and common sense (not handcuffs) should be applied to all situations though. Children being late to school, even a lot of times, should not = anybody being arrested!

I don’t think it’s the school’s responsibility to make sure a kid gets there on time. My boss certainly isn’t going to swing by my apartment and pick me up if I’m regularly late to work.

I don’t think this mother should have been arrested, but I do think some sort of intervention was needed, for both the children and the mother. If the children are ready for school and the mother is making them late through disability, then perhaps alternate forms of transportation are needed. If the mother is ready to go and the kids are dragging their feet, then the children should be punished at school with detentions or extra work or community service, etc.

When I was in elementary school, my grandmother got me up and ready for school because both my parents left for work at 5 a.m. I had to be ready to catch a bus at 7:30 (and ride it for an hour). If I missed it, I was out of luck (grandma didn’t drive) unless I could convince my best friend’s mom to stop by and pick me up (only after she’d dropped off her own child at the school). In middle and high school I got myself up and ready. I am by no means a morning person. I hate waking up with a fiery passion and prefer to sleep until 11 a.m. But I got myself up and out of bed at 6:30 every day because I knew if I missed that bus, there would be hell to pay from my parents, as well as just the general shame of having to stand in the school office and be marked ‘tardy’.

@Melody..I just couldn’t disagree more! “There are articles that analyze those who are chronically late and it shows that they believe that their time is more important than everyone else’s.” NOT true! I am late a lot, and it has nothing to do with who’s time I feel is more important…it has to do with the fact that my brain has a hard time “playing chess” if you will…in other words, I can’t plan 5-10 moves in advance. If I know it takes 45 minutes to get somewhere, I leave 45 minutes before I need to be there, and 90% of the time, it works out just fine. If I had to force myself to stop and think about all the things that may happen..traffic, stopping for gas, forgetting something and having to turn back, etc., even though these things only happen 10% of the time, I’d overwhelm myself to the point that I wouldn’t be able to leave the house! I admit it, I’m not a good multi-tasker. I need to focus on the issue at hand, one thing at a time. My brain just doesn’t work any other way. Some people are great at multi-tasking, and I admire that, but I’m not…so I guess I’m just a self-important irritant to society….maybe I should just curl up and die because of the inconvenience I wreak upon the rest of the world….

Homeschool!

Why would anyone willingly suffer the company of these fools?

Stories like this make me even more grateful that I’ve chosen to home school my children.

Just to put into a bit more perspective where I’m coming from with some of my earlier comments–

Besides being a teacher now, years ago I was the child of two alcoholics with an alcoholic grandmother living in the same house. I was, essentially, the teenage “parent” to my brother, 4 years younger than me. When I was in HS, it was my job to get an angry, defiant, failing younger sibling out the door to school on time and on nearly every occasion for 5 years I did just that. I can’t say he stayed put once I got him there but he was not late for 1st period. He generally hated me for it, but he was there.

Excuses for why kids are late are almost always just those… excuses. You know your situation. You know your limitations. You know your kids. And you plan to overcome all 3.

Rereading the original article, I noticed something. The mother says that each of the times they were tardy, they were tardy by less than 10 minutes. That seems like a very consistent pattern that could be learned from and it’s such a small amount of time that it could maybe be overcome by getting going 20 minutes earlier in the morning. If the children were late by half an hour every time or if the times varied wildly, it would be much harder to get a handle on it, yes. But if a person is consistently seven minutes late (I’ve had coworkers like this), it seems that just getting going earlier would be a big help to the problem.

Special needs kids can and should if there is good reason for it! Although our district did not like that our son was sometimes late getting in, they never threatened any kind of action. In fact, the autism teacher would sometimes call and talk to my son when he was too frightened to cooperatively go to school. This would reduce anxiety.

To say there is no good excuse as to why a child might be late to school… that’s pure and utter bullshit. There are non-special needs reasons. Like last week when our new kitten ran out the door as we were getting in the car. It was freezing and we live on a busy road and this new kitten does not have a collar yet or know where “home” is yet. Yes, we were late getting to school ( 5 minutes!) because we had to capture kitten. That is not something we could have “planned for”. Nor was it when my car did not start last month. I think it is absurd that anyone would be arrested for tardiness of 5 or 10 minutes. I agree with the homeschooling Moms.

Homeschooling will help with the school tardiness issue. But it will not cure chronic tardiness. It will not make it easier for someone with ADHD to get somewhere at a particular time. Even if you homeschool, there are still doctor’s appointments, church services, and other events that need to be gotten to on time. So while homeschooling will sidestep this one issue, it isn’t a miracle cure.

I have no problem with people homeschooling. I sort of wish I could sometimes, but between the need to eat and the fact that my kids and I would kill each other in a week, it is just never going to happen. But I get tired of it being brought out as the cure for all school related ills. It just isn’t an option for everyone, or even for a majority of folks, and we can’t stop trying to make the schools better.

Hoooooboy, I’m in that county. I better make sure that my husband gets them to school on time when they start K in the fall. He has an issue with arriving to things on time, he’s chronically late, especially with two 4 year old defiant turkeys. I suppose I should tell him that the school starts earlier than it really does.

(And honestly, I don’t think our police department has anything better to do after reading the crime logs.)

Andy- It’s an absolute nightmare, it really is. Teachers do not have the flexibility to accommodate late students. We are on a tight schedule dictated to us by our administrators, dictated to them by the superintendent, dictated to them by the state officials who have not been in a classroom since they were children but who are chasing pennies offered by the federal government. I am quite honestly not exaggerating about the schedule on the board. It is called the “Flow of the Day” and is generally accompanied by the materials for each part of the day, and an objective or aim and a statement of SWBAT (what Students Will Be Able To Do by the end of the lesson that they were not able to do before it). Essentially, teachers are asked to display their lesson plan for the day on the board in full sight of whoever walks in so that a person can check the board, check the clock and check a child’s desk to see if the teacher is on task.

But it is what is expected of teachers in the current educational climate and parents support it because it “proves” we are doing what we are supposed to be doing. Do I personally feel that, in the grand scheme of the world, children being late for school is an offense punishable by law? However, when “your” child being late every day is going to affect how much I am going to be paid, do I want to use every measure available to me to make sure that I “you” are being held as accountable as I am? I sure as hell do.

“But if a person is consistently seven minutes late (I’ve had coworkers like this), it seems that just getting going earlier would be a big help to the problem.”

This is a very good point. If issues come up that make you just a few minutes late, fairly often, then you just have to change your target time. It’s not a matter of “try harder to be on time,” it’s “plan to be early, then whatever real — but apparently fairly short term — problems come up, you’ll have a margin.”

The issue isn’t really whether those issues are “her fault,” but whether it’s reasonable to say that she could, at least in time, develop coping strategies to compensate.

So just in case anyone’s having trouble following my position here, I come down solidly in the middle. 1. There are situations where some leeway should be given, and if those issues are real and visible, the school should not act like a prison camp. 2. Even if the mom is not holding up her end well, arrest is over the top if it is not a clear case of flouting her responsibility to get her kids to school. Judgment calls CAN be made in situations like this, but too often administrative and law enforcement officials aren’t willing to make them. 3. If there is a consistent pattern of being a little bit late, even if the issues that create it are quite real, there probably ARE ways to cope with it. I have a great deal of sympathy if the situation is quite difficult, but yes, there are things that can help the situation.

If this was a matter of a family being an hour late six times over the course of an entire year because of some erratic problem that would come up even if they started the process two hours early, it would be one thing. But if getting your kids to school on time means you have to tell yourself that your target time is a half hour before the actual time because on a semi-regular basis, something happens that throws you 20 minutes off schedule, that’s what you have to do.

A friend of mine received a call from our elementary school that his 3 children were tardy and he needed to have an excuse note for them to get to class. He got them to the bus stop on time, but their bus broke down and they had to switch buses and were tardy. He told the administrator to get the note from the bus driver!
Late is late. It is not a crime. Yes, there should be consequences, but do not perpetuate helicopter parenting by making the parent responsible for the late student.

I agree that the arrest part of the story is outrageous especially if she has children with disabilities that make it hard to be on time every single day. However, I have to side with the teachers on general tardiness. If you don’t want to follow the school schedule then homeschool. That’s what I chose to do.

Pentamom – thanks for articulating that better than I did.

Lollipoplover – was it a school bus or a city bus? In my school district, whenever school buses were late, those students were automatically excused, as they should be. I’m not sure how it work for a city bus, but I would hope that the school would have a little sympathy on that issue. Public transportation is fantastic, but it does have its moments.

As a person who at 45 still occasionally struggles with tardiness – and I know I’m not the only one – I don’t really care if you all don’t understand my problem. I don’t understand why people do a lot of things, and I’m OK with that.

The fact that you can’t relate to it doesn’t make it a crime.

@Christi – the time away from school does not affect the teachers at the school – it was an ACE school – students scored the work in their book. Some kids were regularly double-checked daily due to cheating, but the majority weren’t. And at the end of the PACE, if they got < a certain amount (I forget which.. 90%?) they had to repeat the whole thing. My oldest graduated at 16 from there, the school was self-paced. Some students took longer than others, some flew through the studies. A friend's son graduated at 15, his sisters were mad because they were 17 and still not completed.

Plus, if someone doesn't want to do an extra 3 hours of grading, um, isn't that part of being a teacher? Doing whatever work is necessary? Sure, sometimes work sucks, but doesn't everyone's?

Diane– I want to believe that you are kidding… I truly, truly hope that your last comment was sarcasm that doesn’t translate well over the computer…

No. Part of being a teacher is not facilitating your mid-March get-away just because you scored fantastic tickets at Disney World in the off-season and combined it with cheap airfare from your credit cards and the timeshare owned by your uncle-in-law. If children are pulled out of school for an illegal absence like that, they should be responsible for making the work up when the return. Teachers will, of course, grade it as they did the rest of the class’s work. If I had the flexibly to set my own rules in this area, such missed work would only be counted at partial credit for older students. If, of course, students were traveling while school was in session for a funeral, for extreme illness or for their own medical care, only the most essential of assignments would need to be completed.

If that comment was not sarcastic, you clearly have a very warped view of what is “necessary”.

I could not agree more with SKL and Peter. An arrest for this is WAY over the top. The simple reality is this: it is up to the parents to TEACH their children to get to school on-time, and to help facilitate it (setting the alarm clock or getting them up etc), but depending on the age, is it the CHILD’S JOB to get i[ and so forth for school on-time. Once you’ve told them “you’re going to be late for school” etc & they fail at it, it’s not your job to fix it for them, and if society & the law say it is, they’re wrong and, frankly, screw them. How in blazes is a child supposed to be motivated to do what they need to do if they know (and they’ll figure it out if they don’t already know) that the parent will be the one ultimately responsible anyway?

EDB and Christi seem to epitomize the very thing we at free-range kids seek to shine a light on–the notion that imperfect parents deserve to have the book thrown at them like they’re scum. Sorry, you shouldn’t be selling it you two, because we aren’t buying. And no Christi, this does NOT merit a CPS investigation. Bruises, molestation, starving–THOSE merit it, not nonsense like this. Shame on you for perpetrating this warped view that all imperfect parents ought to be snitched on this way.

You do NOT define what parenting is, and that the state of VA has chosen to define parenting this way–shame on them. The law needs to be changed, and those who support it voted out & run out of town on a rail. They are pitiful excuses for lawmakers if I’ve ever seen any.

LRH

PS–Sorry for the typo in the earlier post.

Also, I especially agree with what SKL said earlier. Where does it stop? Can you be arrested because your child didn’t do a good job with their science project & you didn’t intervene to help? Where I come from, the CHILD is responsible for their assignments, and ONLY the child. It is my job WITHIN REASON to get them to school on-time & to provide for their needs, IT IS NOT MY JOB to do EVERYTHING for them, and screw teachers & politicians and lawmakers who think it is & make such issues their business like (as SKL said) as if this is the military. My 8-5 job is my job, period. That’s it. My child’s homework is my CHILD’S homework, NOT MINE. It’s my job to provide them the pencils & supplies, it is not my job to do the actual writing for them, thank you–but isn’t that where we’re headed very quickly?

And shame on those of you who SUPPORT and ADVOCATE this. I didn’t ask to be put under a microscope & live a fishbowl experience because I have children. Save your CPS tattle-taling for molestors & pedophiles and those who starve their children, not for petty imperfections. Go meddle in your own business and leave decent people the hell alone.

First of all, LRH – read my post. I did NOT say imperfect parenting should be criminalized. My point is that everyone is coming to this woman’s defense when all we’ve heard is her side of the story which is that they are late due to issues with disabilities such as ADHD. Excuses like that are just that – excuses. I said the arrest was over the top. But at some point you have to drop the excuses and follow the rules! The world cannot revolve around your child’s ADHD and your list of various excuses. Everyone can come up with some sort of excuse. And yes, everyone is an imperfect parent. But you have to take responsibility. And if you enroll your child in school, you have to conform to those rules. End of story!

Addition: Oops. I try not to double post, but I forgot a bit:

It’s not about parents being perfect vs. imperfect. Getting to school on time is a pretty basic skill, which children need to master in order to be functional adults who can reliably be at work on time. If the parent is failing to impart that skill, they are not “imperfect”, they are not fulfilling one of the most fundamental aspects of being a parent – helping their children grow into functional adults.

I’m seeing a few arguments here that revolve around “parents are slaves whose purpose is to enable the stupidity of the bureacratic system.” That is not the purpose of parents. Parents are there to parent their children. If the parent decides that being an hour late each day is what is appropriate for their child, to hell with anyone who thinks they know better.

“How I would punish my child for it—I’d consult my common sense or someone smart & reasoned like John Rosemond, but beyond that, I don’t have to explain to you nor to CPS what I would do. I would do what my common sense & feedback from such persons compels me to. Beyond that,, it isn’t any of your business what I would do.”

As a teacher, I suggest you slow down and read for comprehension. I didn’t ask what the parent should do… I asked what you would suggest a school do as punishment for a chronically late child.

Lunch detention for a 6 year old who is constantly late? Bad idea… kids really do need that recess time after sitting through 4 hours of school work. Plus, there’s no budget for the school to have someone supervise them.

Extra work? Nah. The parents will just do it for the kids at home so they can go out and play.

Withhold privileges at school? Well, there’s an idea…

True story. A 3rd grader is habitually late to English first period. I talk to her mom about it, and mom tells me it’s the kid’s fault because she takes too long to get dressed and that mom is trying to tech her kid the value of responsibility, so I should, of course, take whatever action is necessary to reinforce that this lateness is unacceptable. I enforce what consequences I can, when I can. One day the girl shows up nearly an hour late, having missed an in-class writing assignment during the first hour. During the second hour her classmates attend a special assembly/ theater performance in the auditorium. I keep the girl with me to complete the writing assignment.

That afternoon I get a VERY angry e-mail from the parent. Her poor daughter was HEARTBROKEN that she missed the assembly and it was terribly callous of me to keep her daughter from going. Couldn’t I have administered the assessment at another time. “But this was a consequence of her own actions”, I reminded the mother. “Oh, but it wasn’t her fault today. Today I couldn’t find my keys/wallet/cell phone/brain/whatever and we were late.” Could her daughter please go tomorrow to see the performance with the kindergarten class rather than attend my class? HELL NO!

So how, exactly, are schools supposed to help children realize the consequences of being late?

I stand by what I have said, and I especially agree with Eric S‘s post. He illustrates total common sense, like he said–yes, “late’s late,” but ‘cmon–there’s 10 minutes here & there vs an hour daily.

And Sera, I have made it clear that I think it is the job of parents to TEACH their children how to get ready for school & to facilitate that, but IT IS NOT MY JOB to GET them ready. They’re old enough to get THEMSELVES ready. It sure as hell ought not to be criminalized, but beyond that, it still isn’t my job to GET THEM ready. it is only my job to TEACH them how to get ready. I sure as hell will not physically dress someone who knows how to put their clothes on. That’s on THEM, they know how to get dressed, they’re physically able, it’s on THEM.

If the law says otherwise–frankly, it needs to be changed. It’s wrong. Stay out of my business & other people’s business too.

LRH

“If the parent decides that being an hour late each day is what is appropriate for their child, to hell with anyone who thinks they know better.”

Then that parent needs to withdraw the child from school, because it is entirely unreasonable to expect the school to educate the child if your position is that you have no interest in and no responsibility to conform with any of the guidelines that the school puts in place.

And they’re entirely free to do so. I’m as ready as anyone to criticize schools for ridiculous rules and excessive punishment, but thinking you can send your child to school to be educated but that you don’t have to cooperate in that process in any way is just ridiculous.

“Tardiness and absence are annoying for teachers, but those educators are not a legal authority over your children or you. ”

No, but there are compulsory attendance laws and those laws contain specifics about the number of absences and the amount of tardiness that the school is allowed to permit. And teachers are the ones who record your compliance with those laws by taking attendance.

Whether you agree with the existence or specifics of those laws, saying that children attending school on time is not a legal matter is simply not accurate.

David- The parents and I had spoken and the parents had said that, of course, I should enforce whatever consequences came naturally of her behavior. The natural consequence of her being late that day (and we are talking generally more than a half hour late more than twice a week) was for her to take the assessment, which was time sensitive and had to be completed that day, while other students were at the assembly (the assembly was timed that way so as to allow teachers to grade the mandatory assessments). Had she, for example, missed a spelling test, she would have taken the spelling test during the first few minutes of recess or been asked to stay after school to take it. The problem here was that the parents were really only catering to the whims of their child and doing only what it took to stay in the child’s good graces. They were interested in being the child’s friend, rather than her parent, and I have found that that is very often the case with parents who can’t lay down rules and get their children to follow them. They want someone else to do the enforcing and someone else to do the punishing, and then, when someone else does that and the child complains, they show the child that they will immediately jump to the child’s defense, whether the child was in the right or in the wrong.

If getting to school on time every day were necessary to growing up competent, I would be chronically unemployed and homeless.

There are plenty of jobs that do not require the individual to be at a desk ready to do math at 8am or 9am every day.

Getting to school on time is a courtesy to the teacher and classmates. Yes, I want my kids to know that it’s important to show that courtesy. Yes, I believe it’s my responsibility to figure out a combination of planning and discipline that results in my kids being on time as often as possible. Yes, I support the school if they administer age-appropriate discipline for tardiness that the child is capable of avoiding.

But when tardiness occurs despite my efforts, because we’re on a learning curve or because sh-t happens, I put it in perspective, and I expect child development experts (aka teachers) to do the same.

My kid’s KG classmate bit her a few weeks ago. She’s been on the “bad list” more often than not this school year. Surely this is distracting to the teachers and the other children. Surely it disrupts the school day more than a tardy. Yet I am sure there is no arrest warrant out for this child’s mother. Nobody is saying she should go to jail or pay a fine because her discipline methods obviously come up short. I guess they figure that since the mom isn’t right there to do anything about it while the kid is chomping down on another, mom gets a free pass. I wonder if they should arrest the mom whose kid screeches at drop-off every morning? After all, she’s right there and it’s her responsibility!

So why do educators think that when it comes to tardiness, they get to tell me how I should handle things in my own home? Because for every parent to always get their kids to school on time, some would have to physically dress them from the skin out, force-feed them breakfast (or let them starve), and drag them to school against all protests. And if they don’t do this, they get a criminal record. That’s way interfering into my right to make parenting choices, regarding preparing my kid for adult life.

You say that my kid needs to be on time to succeed in life; I say, she needs to be able to get her own self ready in the morning before she can be on time! Your way is legal, mine is apparently illegal. Whatever! I guess I’ll just beat my kids more often to make sure they don’t get me arrested for tardiness.

I’m not a morning person, but I’ve been working (professionally, in a 40 hour/week job) for about 8 years now. In my current position, my hours start at 8:00am. I routinely come in between 8:15 to 8:30 because I’m not a fan of mornings. My boss is a-okay with this because 1) I get my work done accurately and on time, and 2) I stay late if necessary. I’ve asked if it’s an issue, and it’s not.

Now, am I always late? No… especially if I have an important meeting at 8am or something. I do what needs to be done.

Prior to my current position, I was a teacher. The past 10 years have brought about such dramatic changes in education and teaching, I’m pretty certain that although my passion is there, my heart isn’t in battling regulations, requirements, and entitled parents.

BMS, homeschooling may not be an option for all, but that doesn’t mean those who do homeschool should have to keep quiet about it or not express that it IS an option that some may not have considered. I, personally have come across at least a dozen personal friends who have sent their kids to school, had issues, I mention homeschooling, they talk to me and find out more about it, and then they decided to make the plunge and do it. And they were SO much happier! So for us that do homeschool, we feel it is such a blessing we just want to share it with others. We should definitely be trying to make the schools better, as well. But arresting a mother for tardy children is NOT making the schools better. Getting rid of policies on testing and micromanagement of the day WILL. And homeschooling is certainly not a cure for tardiness, but I don’t even pretend to understand what it is like living with 3 special needs kids and so I can’t and won’t judge her. Any teacher who can’t understand that is not worthy of being a teacher. And even if the days are micromanaged, it’s still pretty easy to start the child where everyone else is and assign what was missed for homework. Like it was said earlier, a good teacher knows how to manage these things with little to no disturbance to the school day. If you are right in the middle of something, the child can sit quietly while the rest of the class continues on until you a reach a point the child can jump in. (That’s what all of my teachers did when I was in school as a kid. Then at recess you call the kid up and tell them what they missed and assign it for homework. No big deal.)

Pentamom, I gotta agree.

If you want to be in group x, you need to follow group x’s rules. If I join a softball league, and the rules of the team say you must show up to all practices or you can’t play, I have 2 choices: show up to practice, or find another league. I know the rules before I start, and I can’t expect them to change. I sing in a church choir. I can sight read, and I know most of the music. I don’t really need to rehearse most days. But we have a rule: if you don’t show up 90 minutes before the service, you can’t sing that day. So even though I could easily breeze in 5 minutes before mass and sing just fine, I have to play by the rules, or I can’t sing. I want to sing, so I get my lazy self out of bed.

If you want free education, you need to either provide it yourself via homeschooling, or play by the rules of your school system. If you think those rules are so stupid that you cannot abide them, you have the choice of working to get those rules changed, switching to private school or homeschooling, or sucking it up. I personally don’t think kids will die if they have to abide by a dress code, arrive at school on time, and do what the teacher says as long as it’s not illegal, so I don’t sweat the petty rules.

The kids who are raised to think that being on time isn’t a big deal come to my college courses. They arrive at 8:15 for an 8am class. And they miss the pop quiz that started at 8 sharp. Or they miss the explanation of that really tricky problem from the day before. Or they miss the announcement that there is no class next week. And that’s just too damn bad. I don’t have time to repeat myself 10 times for the people who arrive 5, 10, 15 minutes late. Being on time for stuff is a life skill. Learn it.

@ Larry –

If a child or children are not managing to get themselves up, ready, and to their transport to school on time, then the parent has NOT successfully taught them how to get to school on time.

Your kid might be able to dress themselves, get and eat breakfast by themselves, brush their teeth by themselves, pack their bag by themselves, and go out to the bus stop and wait by themselves. That is good. However, that is NOT equal to them having good enough time management to get themselves ready for school on time – just because they can perform each INDIVIDUAL ACTION by themselves does not mean that you do not need to help them learn how to manage their TIME properly – i.e., be able to accomplish everything they need to to between when they wake up and when they need to be on the bus or walking to school.

It’s like if I taught a child how to recognise individual letters. The child can recognise “a” as being the letter “a”, etc… I then say that the child is literate and I can stop teaching them how to read and write, yes?

No. The child is not literate. The child might be able to recognise “c”, “h”, “a”, “i”, “r”, but cannot recognise the collection of letters as the word “chair” and connect it to the concept of a chair. The basic building blocks are there, but the child needs more learning before the they can come together as a useful whole. It’s the same with your kid getting ready for school. If they can do all of the individual actions by themselves, that’s great and they’re halfway there, but they need more help, because they’re not ALL the way there yet. The fact that they aren’t getting there on time is proof that they they need more help to get it right.

And, yes, there are very good reasons for the laws that exist to ensure that your children do go to school, daily, and on time. They are there to ensure that the children get enough education to get by in the world, be able to fill at least menial jobs, and, ideally, are able to pursue tertiary education later in life should they so choose. Those laws are there to protect children from parents who would prefer that their child is not educated enough to be independent, or, those parents who place little or no value on education and view it as unnecessary – which, in the first world where everybody needs a certain level of education to be able to get by, certainly is abuse, right up there with beating and starving. Denying a child – ANY child – basic secondary education is just wrong, and the law reflects this, both in my country and in yours.

Jenne- I remember homeroom too… and it, sadly, seems like bygone luxury, at least where I’m teaching and in many neighboring districts.

I’m not trying to be argumentative at all, and I’m thinking through my “3 hour” estimate. I will speak to 4th grade, in this case, because I am very familiar with it.

Let me preface this by saying that I am thinking of my own experience in an affluent district where we do not use text books.

Reading- (about 30 minutes of preparation for one student)
Determine which book the child is reading and if they are likely to finish it before the week is out.
If they are likely to finish it before the end of this week (and they will be gone next week), what cumulative assessment is being used for this time in the reading workshop? Let’s say the child is likely to finish the book and the class is working on tracing character development. The child’s work in the following week at school would likely be to return to the text and find 5 places where the reader can see the character changing. For each of those 5 instances, the student is going to need to fill out a graphic organizer. Collect those 5 graphic organizers, get them photocopied if necessary, sit down with the student and explain how to fill out the graphic organizers. Perhaps do one together if necessary. This will probably be done during the teacher’s lunch time.

If they are not likely to finish it before the end of the week, there may be slightly less time required.

Writing- (About 30 to 45 minutes for one student)
Where in the writing process is this student? If they are still collecting seed ideas, you need to explain how students will be spending the next week using a seed idea to, for example, draft a personal narrative about a time when they were frightened about something. Make sure that students understand what makes a personal narrative different from a fully fleshed out story, etc. Make sure you have a graphic organizer ready and photocopied to begin expanding the seed idea into paragraph form. Make sure that the rubric you will be using to edit and revise the rough draft has already been made (likely you will have to sit down and create that rubric as each rubric is supposed to be created for the individual assignment). Sit down with the student and make sure that he or she knows which seed idea they are going to choose. Go over, with the student, what each part of the rubric means and how to do a self check and self evaluation at the end of the draft– since this child will not be in class to peer revise and peer edit, they will be doing the work on their own. Also try and instill in the student that THEY should be writing this, and not their parent.

Math- (about 30 minutes depending on if you are starting something new or if you are continuing with a current topic)
Let’s pretend, for ease sake, you are continuing with a topic. Get the student a set of the manipulatives they will need to complete a week’s worth of exercises. Gather all of the photocopies and entrance/exit tickets you will use to assess comprehension and make sure that there are directions for the parents who many not understand the way “new math” is being taught. This is likely to be about 10 workbook pages/photocopies sprialing back to topics covered in previous units. Sit down with the student and ensure that they understand the topic. Provide remedial sheets for a student you know is struggling. Provide advanced sheets for a student who is good at math.

Social Studies/Science- 10 to 20 minutes, similar to above. Make photocopies, sit with student, explain what to do, assign any reading

Homework- (10 to 15 minutes) Look at the week ahead and put together a homework sheet in advance, guessing what you will actually cover during the current AND upcoming week. Gather photocopies, materials, texts, etc. Explain any longer term projects to the student. Make sure he/she has an independent reading book and enough sheets/space to continue his/her reading log.

Tests/Quizzes- (10 to 30 minutes depending on the week)Be sure the parents know what parts of the covered material will be tested/quizzed upon the child’s return. Once the child is back, arrange for him or her to come in early/stay in at lunch/stay late to take missing tests/quizzes/in class writing assignments.

Grading/Correcting- (up to an hour)
Go over the reading and writing responses, editing where necessary. Meet with the students 1 on 1 to go over corrections to the written piece before the student begins writing a final copy. If possible, arrange time for the student to pair-share with at least one other student before getting to work on this. The rest is rather self explanatory. You will be grading things individually that you would have done in a batch for the other students, or which you might have only gone over as a group. There may also be a need for more backtracking to be done if any of the lessons went in a different direction during instruction time than you had initially planned or if it is clear that the child did not understand any key parts of what was taught in class.

Added up, even on the low end, that comes to about 3 hours that you suddenly have to find time for when a parent e-mails you on Thursday afternoon and says, “I’ll be taking little Lilly away next week for a vacation in Miami… could you just send me her work?”

Sera Maybe and JUST MAYBE the laws were created with the end result of what you’re saying, not neglecting a child’s needs vis-a-vis the provision of a quality education, but the thing is that they’ve been taken too far, and this story is a perfect illustration of it. Your sermon on “what your job as a parent is” notwithstanding, it’s a (maybe?) good law taken WAY too far. When you’ve done more than enough to teach them how to do what they need to in ALL aspects (as SKL explained perfectly) but they are late anyway on occasion, that is NOT “denying a child education,” I don’t care what the law says, and to equate such as being in the same league as starvation & molestation etc is just ridiculous.

LRH

Christi, your example of the little girl who missed the assembly is a good one. You administered a consequence and she didn’t like it (are kids supposed to like punishments?). Mom complained but you held your ground. Child and mom learned. Sounds like successful discipline to me.

You felt bad about it. Well, I can’t ever remember a time when I’ve felt great about having to discipline someone – at home or at work. Just because it’s a sucky part of your job doesn’t mean the system is sucky. Try having to fire someone. (Maybe I should have had that employee’s mom arrested instead.)

SKL- thanks.. I am being genuine here.

Sadly, it didn’t end there. The mother went above my head and complained that I was “picking on” her child because she had been late to school. Long story short, the girl got to go to the assembly the next day with the Kindergarteners. Which was during 1st period. And, surprisingly, the little girl was on time that day.

It’s apparently off-topic, but I do also want to point out that I do agree with SKL also on the topic of parents who argue with teachers enforcing reasonable rules. I think it makes sense myself in terms of there being accountability for this, so long as that accountability is WITHIN THE SCHOOL. In fact I was thinking about this myself–Lenore once said in a video (I forget which one) that in years past if, say, a child became separated from the parents at Six Flags etc the reply of society would’ve been along the lines of “those darned kids! Poor parent & all they’re doing and still that happens,” but now it’s more about blaming the parent & “why weren’t you holding their hand, why didn’t you GPS track them” etc.

I think it’s much the same thing here.

But more to the point, I agree about parents who are ridiculous in terms of not taking the teacher’s side in cases of disobedient children. Again, much as John Rosemond would say (I realize this is Free Range Kids not rosemond.com, just saying that he’s the other parenting pundit I’m big on), if he had come home with red marks on his behavior sheet, his mother didn’t want an explanation from him, she wanted an apology & a promise to do better. THE TEACHER was backed.

I agree with that totally, and I plan to do it that way myself. So Christi, where it regards that sort of thing, I am on your side. May I humbly say, in that regard, you’d LOVE having me as a parent in your school. Now, if there were ridiculous rules in school (ones like a child being treated as a criminal for taking an aspirin into school, for example), I would advocate against the RULE, but where it regards my child acting up in your class (not sitting still, bullying other kids etc), I would TOTALLY support your authority & my child would be expected to conform to YOU. Where it regards the horror stories I hear about parents THERE, I AGREE with you in THAT part anyway.

LRH

Arresting the mother was ridiculous. Nothing wrong with the school talking to the mother to find ways to get the kids to school on time or get a 504 to allow tardies if they agree it’s necessary.

Makes my kids’ school policy of meeting with parents if kids hit 10 excused absences look mild, although they also say it can involve law enforcement. I’ve never heard of them arresting anyone though. I did meet a mom one time who had to pay a fine for her child being absent or late too often. Grocery store line discussion, not something where I have details, so I really don’t know what all went on first.

Christi, sadly, it seems as if you are becoming part of the problem. You seem to have bought into what the bureaucracy is feeding you, hook, line and sinker. You seem to see school as the be-all, end-all, most important thing ever in the life of a child. I’ve heard the song and dance, (being an ed major many years ago – and it wasn’t even as bad then and the daughter and granddaughter of teachers) and, after raising four kids, I have rejected it. There is far more to life than a classroom. Yes, you are paid to do a job. Yes, it would be far easier if everything and everyone were completely uniform, with no differences or special needs or bad days. But that’s not reality. And frankly, if you are wed to the idea the a parent of tardy children should be criminalized (because that’s what an arrest means) because it upsets your classroom flow, then maybe you should start thinking about another line of work. Sadly, I have found that the teachers who think like you may look good to the administration, but I have not found them the most effective teachers. Far and away, the best teachers have been the flexible ones who took things in stride, kept problems in perspective, and were doing their best to engage the children in a lifelong love of learning. (But this often requires creatively skirting the boundaries that administrations put into place.)
I understand why Lenore posted this.I see this whole thing as just another way that parental rights – including our rights to make decisions based on our family situations and needs – are being diminished. The government needs to remember that they do not own our children. Neither do we – but we are the ones who are raising them, and we still have rights. It infuriates me to see things that are small turned into crimes. Zero tolerance? No, just zero thought.
My own experience with tardy children: My kids walked or biked to school from the time they were small. They were late occasionally, yes, but it was never a criminal matter. When DD was in high school, she would get her dad to give her a ride, and since he doesn’t get the passage of time very well, she was often late (he still can’t get anywhere on time – and no, he has not been fired over it – his job is flexible.) She got the detention for that, not him. Was it fair? Maybe not, but then she could have taken the school bus instead and not been late, which was her choice. But at least at that time, and in that place, it was not considered a criminal matter.

I live in Loudoun County, VA and see plenty of kids arriving tardy to school on multiple occasions. I do not know of any parents that have been arrested for their child’s tardiness. I suspect there is something more to this story.

There seem to be three distinct threads of thought here, and I thought I’d point them out for clarity’s sake.

The first – we are not all perfect.

The second – we are not all in the same situation.

The third – we don’t all have the same priorities

I think one of the ideas of Free-Ranging is that none of these should be criminalized. Part of being in a community is recognizing that others have other limitations than you do, and others have other priorities than you do, and others are facing other situations than you are.

I am certainly not the most perfect parent. We do a homeschool co-op on Fridays. When I manage to get all my children there on-time, I announce it to my world of friends on Facebook as a major triumph. I know that makes me a bad parent to some, but the fact is that I’m not perfect, and no amount of patronizing is going to make me better. Trying all the time, but no, I’m not perfect. And I’m sure there are parts of your life that other’s could point to for their imperfection as well. But rather than being judgmental about each other, and dragging each other to jail, we should be helping each other out.

We have all pointed out the various situations we are in. Some of them are more conducive to being on-time than others. Some handle it well, some poorly. See the first point on that subject.

Finally, we don’t all have the same priorities. In Oklahoma, homeschooling is an easy option if you want to have different priorities with your children than the state does. But in other places, homeschooling isn’t such a bright option. Some families can’t afford it. Some families can afford it, but don’t know how (see point one above). One of the problems with the current school system is that it mandates itself as the ultimate priority – as evidenced by many of the comments here. I believe in education – I spend more time with books than with anything else. But this doesn’t exactly equate to school. Some have mentioned all of the terrible things they have to do to their kids to get them to school. Perhaps some families think that doing such things is immoral? Perhaps some have a priority of relationship with their children than school? Perhaps they don’t want their children to be hyper-stressed about deadlines all the time? (note – there are many cultures in which deadlines aren’t a big deal – being late is usually assumed). The fact is, we don’t all have the same priorities, and having the school system assert itself as the main priority above any priorities your family has is a problem, especially when failure to comply with their priorities means jail time.

There are priorities which are morally better than others. Perhaps you have the better set of priorities than everyone else. For that, see again point one.

Jane That is so dead-on. I could not agree more with everything you said, especially (a) “if you are wed to the idea the a parent of tardy children should be criminalized (because that’s what an arrest means) because it upsets your classroom flow, then maybe you should start thinking about another line of work” (b) the government needing to remember that WE are the parents, NOT them.

Frankly dwoodruff, are you offering to HELP such people or just judge & condemn? If you’re offering to help, good, that’s the very sort of thing Lenore advocates. If all you’re going to do is judge & condemn from a pulpit towering above the condemned, frankly, shut up.

Good Lord, no one is saying (certainly not me) that the original poster is “special,” but neither is it right for her to be CRIMINALIZED as an awful parent. Perspective is in order–it’s one thing for a child to be late to school a few times, it’s another to starve them to death or beat them with a wood plank. Part of society’s problem is thinking the police & social services etc ought to be alerted over EVERYTHING, even relatively petty-everyday stuff. Criminalizing everyday struggles of being an imperfect parent is blatantly outrageous.

Parents should only be held responsible for their children’s actions up to a reasonable extent, and the problem with your position is that you’re making no distinction between a passive & lazy parent versus one who has done everything they know how but things still aren’t going ideally for them. As Lenore said, actions like this speak of a society bent on making imperfect parents, NOT negligent ones, criminally responsible, and that’s just blatantly ridiculous.

Moreover, part of what Lenore advocates here is that we look to HELP each other through these struggles rather than drawing battlelines and criminalizing each other, that we COME TOGETHER and help each other. What’s so bad about someone HELPING this mother, in a NICE and NON-JUDGMENTAL way regarding this, in a way that still respects her as the children’s mother, rather than being as ridiculous as the kids themselves & looking to tattle-tale or throw spitballs at her? Okay, it is HER responsibility not other people’s to parent her children, but as I said earlier, if you’re not going to help–frankly, shut the hell up and butt out.

I must admit to getting a chuckle at the idea that my kid being on time means that there will be no time wasted in the classroom.

Having daydreamed much of my childhood away in school (patiently waiting for the teachers to be done explaining what I already knew to the rest of the class), I find such comments to be slightly hypocritical.

After thinking about this for a while, I put the blame totally on the school. “Why?” you ask. Here is why. I have a child with an IEP. I have friends with children with IEPs. I frequent message boards for people with kids with IEPs.

And I have found that it is extraordinarily rare for a school volunteer things that might help the kid. The parent has to ASK for it. Which means, if you don’t know what to ask for, you will not get it. At all. Even things that can bring school test scores up….they will not say “Johnny would benefit from having a scribe or a word processor to do his work.” when Johnny can hardly put two words on a page. They will not say that a child in a virtual school that is a public school should do less of the grade level work when they tested 3 grades below and need massive remedial work. They will only check to see if it is possible IF the parent asks.

And when you have parents who are working, who are dealing with siblings, who are fighting every night just to get the homework done, they are not going to even have the time to research, much less ask, for what they need, because they haven’t a clue what is and what is not allowed. And since the school won’t volunteer that information, how are they to know? We have all been brainwashed into believing that teachers are experts, and we shouldn’t question the experts, and that experts will do what is best for our kids. It is BS. Like big corporations, they look out for the bottom line. The little ones, the classroom teachers for mainstreamed kids…they are not experts and they have no clue, kind of like the mine worker in the mine, do what the boss says, even if it doesn’t ring quite right.

This school could have offered, as the first person to reply said, to put in the IEP that the kid could be tardy based on the disability. Yes, that may mean some kids have to ride the bus, and one or two get taken in if they are the ones late. But the school did not offer this information and so, they call the police on her. Real nice. IEPs are supposed to be made by a team, including higher ups who actually know what the rules are.

Do not use disabilities as an excuse for being tardy!

I wish my jurisdiction was so strict about truancy with students and had similar consequences to what you experienced. I’ve had students accumulate over 100 lates/absences in one school year (and there’s less than 200 days in a school year) without repercussion. What does it teach your child to be late for school on a regular basis? Do you know how disruptive it is to a child’s education and to the education of the rest of the students? I understand that you and your child have disabilities and schools are usually accommodating. Is it something that is diagnosed by a physician and you have it documented in an IEP? I don’t know if you are employed but if you do, does your disability make you late for work and if it does, how does your employer feel about that? If your child does have an IEP, it will not follow him/her into his/her workplace as an adult so how are you helping your child develop the life skills or arriving at work on time? I don’t know many places of employment that will tolerate 7 absences in less than five months, regardless of the disability (I’m assuming that the lates that you are mentioning are for this school year starting in September). And when you say that you were only late five times (plus another two), I have to question how late were you and if this was an issue in previous school years. You say it was an average of ten minutes, does the school record your entry time so you can verify that? Being 10 minutes late compared to 2 hours late may explain the criminal charges. I wish you luck, mainly because I’m hoping you and your children will learn from this experience that being punctual is valued not only in the education system but the rest of society. I have a 7 year old son who is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder (and has an IEP) and had an issue with getting ready for school. I had to take him to our local police station (pre-arranged) to explain to him how it is the law that he attend school and that there are consequences for not attending school (disrupting his classmates and teachers, not participating in instructional lessons, missing out on fun and learning activities, etc.,). We have not had a single late. I will not allow my son’s `dis’ability impede his ability to becoming a fully functional adult. I’m actually quite disappointed in Lenore and many posters here because there is another side to this story.

Ok folks. Lets get over the fact: School is NOT the REAL world. It is not at all like you get to choose where you will go and when you will go.

If I have issues getting up in the morning, I will not get a job where I have to work early in the morning. I will work night shift. If I can’t sit still, I will get a job where I can be on my feet, like a chef, police officer or such. If I can’t be to work on time, I will work for people who will let me work later if I come in later.

This argument that school needs to prepare kids for the real world…nah, parents do that, not school. Yes, some things I learned in school like basic math and reading were useful. Some stuff was interesting. But very little of what I learned in school is useful in REAL life. Those things I learned from my family.

Is it a waste of resources in this specific case? Probably. But the rule is there for a reason, and a legitimate one at that. Kids are required to go to school. It’s the parents’ responsibility to get them there. I don’t see why this mom can’t do it on time. Asking for special consideration is a pretty privileged thing to do, frankly, unless you go through the usual methods such as getting documentation for the disabilities. But “the rules don’t apply to me” attitude is pretty selfish in my mind.

Why did the school feel the need to enforce the rule if the family was <10 min late each time? Because it's an enormous disruption to have kids late to your class when you're teaching!

I think that if the mom has such a problem with it she has three options:
1) get off her a$$ and get documentation for the disabilities so that she can get deserved special treatment.
2) just f-ing get to school on time. Wake up earlier. Set up everything the night before. Wake the kids earlier. Leave more time to account for inevitable traffic. Just GET there.
3) Enroll the kids in private school. Kids are still required to go to school by law, but private schools don't tend to enforce these kinds of rules and are much more likely to give leeway regarding absences.

I think you Katherine have 2 options yourself:

(1) Offer to HELP this woman, or offer creative & helpful suggestions WITHOUT the mean, nasty and condescending tone

OR

(2) Take your self-righteous holier-than-thou and judgmental tone with you and just shut up.

That’s it.

The world has enough self-righteous, mean-spirited jerks such as yourself, we sure as hell don’t need anymore.

LRH

Haven’t read other responses yet. What comes to mind as I read about this incident is a proposed plan of action:

1. Move to Texas
2. Home School

I have no patience with a system that treats parents as imbeciles and felons, nor do I have the desire to give my children over to people who think they know how to raise my children. They don’t even know my children. Our society has forgotten what freedom feels like, and instead thinks that security and prosperity must come through doing everything as it has been structured for us by experts who, “must know better than the rest of us” because because they get paychecks for their professional opinions. The issue isn’t tardiness. The issue is how much power do we give to institutions to raise the children we are supposed to be parenting.

Jenn Regardless of what you think, the issue is, arresting the parent is just ridiculous. Period.

You are, as others are, confusing “it’s rude to be late” (and I agree, it is) and “society depends on people learning how to allocate their time, plan ahead, so others don’t suffer” (again, I agree)–you’re confusing that with the act of arresting a parent just for being, at worst, a little sloppy in the game. It’s one thing, to use an analogy, for me to say that I think tattoos are hideous on a woman (I really think that) and another altogether to advocate a law that MANDATES that a woman isn’t allowed to have a tattoo just because I feel as I do about their tastelessness. The former isn’t justification for the latter.

Same thing here. Yes, being on-time is the right way to handle your life & to teach your kids, yes teachers don’t need any pain-in-the-rear “special needs” consideration more than is absolutely necessary, but to arrest a parent for a child’s lateness? Oh good grief, that’s so beyond ridiculous it’s flirty with mental insanity.

Enough with the scorning of the mother for being, at worst, a little sloppy. What is with all of you anyway? Good Lord, if this is what passes as USA society nowadays, no wonder Lenore has this site. A lot of you need to learn some serious humility & could do with a lot less judgementalism and “holier than thou” nonsense.

LRH

So here we have a mother who repeatedly and without any other explanation than “we’re to be pitied for our condition” fails to have her children in school on time.
She’s therefore repeatedly and quite easily compensated for (get up half an hour earlier in the morning, you lazy #$^#$) in violation of the law and should face the consequences.

I don’t think it warrants being arrested and taken to jail in handcuffs, but I’ve no pity on her and would convict her were I that judge to quite a hefty fine (or say a week in jail if it’s not the first time she had been arraigned for this).

the time and money it must cost to have this woman arrested, kept in jail and attend court could be better used to have a social worker or such like look at ways to help her manage. More likely to have a compliant parent and happy child if intervention is proactive instead of a reactive lets punish her attitude. Money is being spent in the wrong place.

Jenn Just so you know we home school, and we have rules. Rules are not the issue. As a parent developing character in my child is important to me, timeliness is an issue that can be worked on and developed. However making tardiness “illegal” is ridiculous, and throwing the person who has the direct relationship with the child, and can work with her best, into handcuffs, is absurd.

I’m not judging but reserving judgement. I don’t believe what this woman has said. Why would you take the words of a complete stranger as the truth? This is a person who didn’t like how she was being treated so she went to the media to solve her problems. Many people have posted that they reside in the same jurisdiction as this woman and have had their children late for school more often and have not had the same experience. So either she’s lying or the school moved along the progressive discipline model too quickly. Considering that the school is accountable and is required to note all attempts to work with the family, which will be called up as documentation to the courts, this woman has to at least be exaggerating her story. When I overhear your kid saying, “my parents are going to kill me because I failed my test” I don’t call CPS but call the kid on what is an obvious exaggeration. I’m calling this woman on her story. I want proof that she was only late seven times this year and not late in previous years, and that she was really only late for an average of ten minutes, that she and the kids have a diagnosed documented disability and that she has sought an IEP for her children to show that she is attempting to work with the school system. Then I will believe her story.

People are not here snitching but trying to help a child, a family. If this child does not attend school, where does it leave this child? How will this child get a job? Write a resume? Pay bills? Get a place to live? Have a meaningful relationship? Free range does not mean that you condem all of bureaucracy and societal constraints/norms. It’s a balance of raising a child to be a successful adult who functions within society. Society does have rules that you need to follow, for your safety and the safety of others. Free range does not mean you just ignore rules and laws altogether and say, ‘well that’s not free range so I won’t comply’. People drive on the same side of the road for a reason. If you think that there law is ridiculous than work to change the law, rather than go crying foul play to the media. Going to the media is not going to help her children and it isn’t going to help her either. What do you suggest would get children who are chronically late or absent to school? Students who accumulate over 100 absences/lates in one year? Students who refuse to attend school for ten months? Parents who keep their children home because they are hungover and can’t get out of bed let alone their kids?

Laura and SKL right on to both of you. To answer your question SKL–honestly, based on what I’ve seen in more recent comments, I think people DO believe that very thing, that such is enough to condemn a mother. And that’s part of what I think Lenore is talking about.

I remember her saying this in an interview she gave with an Australian journalist (I don’t recall his name) before she gave a lecture in Australia about 18 months ago, I liked the video so much I actually managed to find a transcript of it way back & I saved it to my records. (I archive LOTS of stuff, it’s a hobby I’ve had for years. Lenore: if you’re reading this, don’t presume on me too much, I don’t archive EVERYTHING, ha ha.)

Here is the relevant part:

I think that the fear of blame is one of the things that is making parents even more afraid than just watching the TV, because it feels like if I had run away from my mom at the fair when I was 5 years old, a million years ago, and–you know–it took a half-hour to find me and, say, I had twisted my ankle, people would go “ah, kids, you know they’re always getting into trouble” or “what can you do” or “poor you Ms Skenazy” [the parent]. And, now, it’s “why weren’t you holding on to her” “why didn’t you have her on a leash” “why didn’t you have your number written on her arm” “why didn’t she have a cell phone” “why didn’t you GPS her?” It’s all your fault.

The assumption is that nothing bad ever happens to a child unless there’s a terrible parent. So parents fear anything happening to their kids, not just because they want their kids to be safe, but because they know that they’re not going to get a lot of sympathy–they’re going to get a lot of blame.

Does that seem to fit in here? You bet it does. Substitute “late for school” in place of “run away from my mom at the fair” & it’s the same thing: it’s the PARENT’S responsibility, there are no excuses, etc etc. And you guessed it–this mother is getting very little sympathy, and an awful lot of blame. (“Get your a-double-S out of bed” etc.)

Part of our blame culture. Don’t you just love it, SKL?

LRH

I don’t know where you live Gina but where I live, schools are funded by the government so if a child is enrolled in a public school, the money is there for the school board. If the child does not attend, they still get their money regardless.

A reason why the mom may want to know why her 9th grade son needs to type his assignments or not is because she may have had that very argument with her son and wanted to know for sure. My 7 year old claims that his teacher spells words differently than I do (and I’m a teacher). I’d love to have his teacher there to settle these arguments! He even tried telling me that his teacher told him that he doesn’t have to do his (minimal) homework because he already knows everything. He’s a kid who tests boundaries which I’m okay with but if it means that he is not working to his potential, I’m going to check with the teacher to make sure that he isn’t trying to pull a fast one.

@Jenn – In NYC (where I teach), schools get penalized on their progress reports and funding if attendance rates are low. It’s another way that NYC holds the wrong people accountable for getting kids to school. Btw, I agree with a lot of your ideas.

“I think this shows they have high standards for their students.”

Because handcuffed parents and kids who get beat out the door in the morning are SO good for test scores.

When I was in college, I worked at a large preschool. The interesting thing was, it was set up not only to teach the kids, but also to work to the schedules of the parents.

I taught there, and my mother taught there, along with a bunch of nice women and a few young men. Kids arrived any time during the day that the parents brought them. It did not disrupt lessons. The kids hung up their coats, and joined the group. Some times the teacher had to get out more paper, paints, clay, or ask the kids to make the circle bigger. But really, it did not disrupt everything.

The kids all ended up in kinder and teachers all said they knew which ones had attended our preschool because they all knew the basics and were able to stand in line and wait in a circle if needed.

When I taught in high school, if a kid came in late, I had them give me their note, and sit down. When my daughter was in school, and I was volunteering, the only time that a kid coming in late was a disruption was if the teacher MADE it is disruption – that is, lecturing the one kid instead of teaching the rest like she was supposed to. One teacher would handle it well I thought, and tell the kid to ask the kid next to them what to do. It was quiet, and did not lose the focus of the entire class. She would switch the kids around, so it was not an issue for the kid next to the other.

Kids have to leave class all the time for occupational therapy, speech therapy or remedial classes. They come back into the class too. Teachers don’t seem to be complaining about that though. Even though it amounts to the same thing as the kid who is late. Or maybe it isn’t PC to complain about them.

@ Cheryl W. I love your post. You hit it on the mark. Kids leave the class all the time for PT, OT. speech therapy, reading help, etc. What’s the difference between that and arriving a few minutes late if it is not an everyday thing? Glad your preschool didn’t punish and instead fostered an environment of caring. I’m sure the children picked up on that.

When I was in high school, I walked a mile in all types of weather (snow belt) to school and back (uphill both ways). No, seriously, it was nearly a mile and sometimes the snow was more than knee deep the whole way. School started at 8am. I was usually up until the wee hours doing chores and homework, so getting up really early was not realistic.

We had a 5-minute homeroom which buffered a lot of tardies. But there were times when I could not get to school before 1st period, and I’d have to go sign in at the far end of the school, listen to the lecture from the [high school dropout] idiot who monitored the sign-in sheet, and walk into class late. The 1st period teacher expressed that this pissed her off. So I figured out that if I was going to be more than 5 minutes late, I might as well skip 1st period and just waltz into 2nd. Sometimes I didn’t get back from my skipping route in time for 2nd period so I would skip that too. (I still got As in both classes.) Being reported absent did not get me in as much trouble as being tardy.

I’d like to think there might be some reasonable middle ground. But reading here, it seems that all teachers consider tardiness to be unforgivable and indicative of general lousiness. How dare anyone put anything ahead of the first minute of xyz class!

You know, when I have a client arrive late for a meeting/call or fail to email me something when promised – or even pay late – I don’t have this kind of reaction. I figure there must have been a reason for it and move on. I guess the difference is that teachers don’t consider themselves to be working for kids and parents, or even collaborating with them on a mutual project. The tone here is that teachers view kids as line workers or even prison inmates. That doesn’t sit well with me. It’s no wonder many kids aren’t internally motivated to achieve perfect attendance.

“I was usually up until the wee hours doing chores and homework, so getting up really early was not realistic.”

At which point the question becomes, why were you up until the wee hours doing chores and homework? Was it because you seriously had that many chores or because you put them off until the wee hours of the morning? There are kids with that many obligations and SKL may have been one (I do seem to recall her mentioning having many responsibilities as a child). But I hear this exact same comment (minus the chores) all the time from my friends with older children, and yet I know none who actually have such obligations and many who are up until the wee hours of the morning doing homework. The general scenario I see with my friends’ kids is that they do a million and one extracurricular activities after school, start their homework when they should go to bed and then complain that it’s too hard to get up in the morning. Well duh!

@Donna: And if you stick to your academics and leave the extracurriculars to other people, you don’t get any scholarships. At least that was my experience.

Again, back on topic: The kids are less than ten minutes late on average for school and therefore their adult driver is threatened with jail time for contributing to delinquency of minors? The surreality of the punishment is difficult to believe, but there it is. This school district is not serving the people it was set up to serve, to put it very mildly. If causing a minor to be a few minutes late for first period is treated as a prosecutable crime, then something is seriously wrong with the school.

I am inclined to blame NCLB, but whatever the cause, the result must not be allowed to stand. Everyone reading this, remember: If it becomes precedent in one state, it can become precedent in other states. It is very easy, very comforting, to point out how that other person is doing it wrong and how she* could avoid the punishment** if she could just do better. But if the law is permitted to do this to one person, it can just as easily happen to you.

*Of course it’s the mom, and of course she must be punished** for not being perfect.

**Punish, punish, punish. Why punish? Why must someone always be to blame? Why must someone always be singled out as the perp if something goes wrong? What, does shit not just happen?

I wasn’t talking about you personally, SKL, but I do get really tired of hearing complaints from friends (and clients) that act as though life is so unfair because they treat their choices as insurmountable odds that other people need to make allowances for. The school doesn’t have to let you come in late every morning because you’re too busy with tennis, dance, piano, soccer, etc. to start your homework until 10pm every night (An actual complaint from an acquaintance a few months ago who was mad that her child got some punishment for being late; I guess now she should just be happy she wasn’t arrested).

And, yes, there was a study but I’m not sure I completely buy it. People seem to pretty much be early birds or night owls from infancy. I’m most alert in the morning and drag all afternoon. I always have been. Once I’m up I’m good to go, caffeineless, whether 5am or 8am (and I never sleep past that). A school day from 9 to 4 or so would be bad for me. There is no way I could have paid attention in my afternoon classes. I’d much rather get up at 5am and take an afternoon nap.

“The school doesn’t have to let you come in late every morning . . . .”

Well, I would have been happy to not go in at all, but there was this pesky law requiring me to do so, and the pesky school enforcing that requirement.

See, this is what I hated about school and why if I hadn’t graduated at 16, I would have dropped out. School is run like some cross between a prison and a zoo. You don’t have to do anything wrong to receive “criminal/animal” treatment. That’s the baseline. A handful of kids who are jocks and brown-nosers manage to avoid some of it. But if you’re just trying to mind your own business, you are presumed guilty and restricted accordingly. You know what they say – if you treat someone like an animal, he’ll act like an animal.

I can’t think of any other place (except maybe a standardized testing location or a quiet theatre) where you’re not allowed to come in late if you want to. Maybe you won’t be rewarded for doing so, but that’s a different issue.

I keep remembering the time that my sister at 13 got to school early (she’s an early person) and went into the restroom to comb her hair (after walking a mile in the wind). She still arrived at her homeroom before the tardy bell. She was given a detention because she had not asked the teacher’s permission to comb her hair before school. Now in this kind of environment, how will there be any motivation to show courtesy for the teacher’s desire to start instruction at exactly 8am? (And no, this has nothing to do with NCLB.)

Jenn- Welcome to the fray! Thank you, as a fellow teacher, for your words of wisdom here. Sadly, there are people too blinded by wind of their own helicopter rotors to recognize it.

LRH- Judgmental witches? Now you’re striking out at peoples’ religion? Wow… defensive much?

For many of these kids, if we WERE their parents, they’d be dong a hell of a lot better in school and in life…

I find it so ironic that Free Rangers are supporting this mother. Isn’t raising your kids free range about teaching them responsibility? You may not like the consequence, but perhaps that is what will teach you not to do it again. My son would jump off the top of the playground structure (ten feet), it wasn’t the safest thing to do but despite cautions, he would do it. When his friend jumped off and broke his leg, my son learned that when you take risks, there are consequences, consequences that you may not like. he learned about risk management, his own physical limitations and also that despite your best efforts, bad things can still happen. Free range parenting isn’t about saying screw the rules of society. It’s working with them and this parent does not appear to have worked with society to fix this problem. Where is the IEP? Where is the diagnosis? Where is the documentation that proves the number of lates and the times late? What about last year? Instead of pointing the finger saying that the school and system here is picking on a disabled family, why not find out what really happened here? The school system is underfunded and overworked. Do you really think teachers want more work for themselves reporting this woman? Because she is in court, the school will need to provide the documentation, release staff from their duties, pay for replacements, advice from counsel, etc., When you take an extreme approach with a family, there is a reason behind it. Time to stop blaming the school system for every child and family that isn’t succeeding. People are saying that Lenore started free range because it’s a situation of blaming the parents, rather than sympathizing with them. Sometimes you deserve to be blamed, especially when you’ve been given opportunities and support. Schools work with a progressive discipline model which has to be documented. Look at what support she has already be given, and see how she responded. To me, this situation is not about raising children free range but raising children to not understand responsibilities and respecting rules.

@Christi @Jenn You do not teach anybody anything by blowing things out of proportion. Maybe except that you are a controlling jerk, which may or may not be fair. I’m not saying that you are such a person, I’m saying that most people will come to that conclusion.

You will not get respect, you will get resentment and maybe fear. That resentment will come back to you in millions of little issues. Like calling the school a cross of prison and zoo. Like good students desperately trying to graduate as soon as possible and bad students dropping off

There is huge difference between enemy in power and authority.

I used to like to go to school, but we had no ‘punish strongly for small mistakes’ policies. I was sometimes forgetful about homework, other kids has been late sometimes, but the consequences has been reasonable. Most of us grown having deep respect to teachers, education and schools.

There is very little learning if there is no respect toward education. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. If they do not respect you, they will do only the minimum necessary to get what they want.

Additionally, it is not this parent’s fault that you have to hold back whole class because of one tardy kid. Blame micromanagement in your school. It is not this parents fault that your salary is lower if kids are late (how does that work?). Blame those in charge.

Well Jenn and the other ones supporting this evil nonsense, allow me to continue.

I support this woman, and I surely support Lenore, and I say this as
someone who has a very unblemished record of not only getting my (not quite) 5 year old off to pre-K every morning on-time (at 6:45 a.m. or so, mind you), but also letting both the principal and teachers know that if she acts up, you can count on me to back YOU up. I will NOT be one of these parents coming in here blaming you for my daughter’s bratty behavior if it happens, I will BACK YOU up.

But you know what? I keep it in perspective. Yes I’ve done very well
getting her to pre-school on-time, but that’s because the school is
only 7/10ths of a mile from here, yes, 7/10ths. I also, much as Donna said about herself, someone who is naturally an early-riser. I was up this morning probably 30 minutes before I had to get her up. It comes easily for me.

But you know what? It doesn’t come easily for everyone, and for those for whom this is the case, I think they need our SUPPORT, not the likes of Christi coming in here with a holier-than-thou attitude saying “if I were their parent they’d be better off.” That attitude is exactly what is poisoning parenting today, other people judging you and having that attitude that “if I were their parent, this is what I’d do, but since I’m not the parent, the next best thing I can do is call social services to MAKE them do it the way I think they should do it.”

That is exactly what we DON’T need.

And good grief, the consequences (arrest) will motivate her to do better? Even if it does, it’s still an extreme overreaction, and the ends do NOT justify the means by any stretch. If people like you REALLY BELIEVE that it is okay to arrest someone if that’s what it takes, frankly–your thinking is all wrong. It’s downright sick if you ask me.

Getting up on-time and getting our (almost) 5 year old to pre-K on-time may come naturally for me, but house-cleaning doesn’t–for me OR for my wife. Our house may not have rats or 40 “hoarded” cats with feces everywhere, it’s nowhere near that degree, but it sure doesn’t look like Martha Stewart living either. House cleaning doesn’t come naturally for me, and frankly, so what? They’re fed, their rooms are still clean (and we do keep the living room respectable), it’s fine. I don’t need Miss High & Mighty coming in here reading me the riot act for not having a house that Marie Barone (the intrusive mother/mother-in-law from “Everybody Loves Raymond”) would approve of. In like manner, this woman did not deserve to be arrested or even (in a figurative sense) get a ruler smacking on her knuckles.

The response of the school system is insane, and frankly the response of way too many in here is equally insane. Welcome to the new society, people, where imperfection will get you arrested and a bunch of damn idiots are all too eager to applaud it.

LRH

Correction, LRH, I didn’t say they’d be better off. I said they’d be doing better in school. Again, I’d suggest you slow down, monitor for meaning and read for comprehension.

I am a student advisor for a major U.S. university, and I tend to agree with those that do not have much sympathy for the mother. On a daily basis, we deal with students who are accustomed to having rules bent for them. These are 18-22+ year olds who can’t make an appointment on time, completely disregard deadlines and have a general lack of respect for any time frame that is not their own. We are faced with parental ire when the student finds out that no, we cannot honor a scholarship application submitted one week after our deadline when we have 200 on-time applications sitting in our office. It’s distressing to hear a legal adult whine in the hopes of having the rules bent to accommodate him/her.

None of us know the full details of the situation that led to the mother’s arrest, so it’s impossible to understand this situation accurately. I don’t like the idea of a parent’s being arrested and sent to court for bringing kids to school late, and this doesn’t sit well with me. However, I’m also concerned by the mother’s seeming lack of self-responsibility for bringing her kids to school late and the values she’s teaching them as a result. If there were an IEP or 504 on file that demonstrated possible tardiness, I can’t but hope that the school would go out of their way to accommodate them. For this level of supposed persecution – which again, I fully disagree with – it seems that there’s more to the issue than the side the mother is presenting.

LHR- The teachers don’t make the calls. We report our attendance to the main office. The office bring attendance problems to the attention of the principal. The principal consults with the superintendent. If they deem it necessary, they call the police.

Are you suggesting I stop taking attendance?

And, before you suggest I “ignore” kids who come in late… school starts at 8:30. Attendance is due by 8:35. It is done electronically. If a student has not sat down in their seat by 8:35, they are marked absent. If they turn up after 8:35, they are supposed to check in at the office and hand in a late note. Then they get a pass to come to class. Often they come to me before going to the office. I send them back to get the pass. The office logs that they were late and not absent. I do not have access to that system to change the attendance. This is the way it works in many schools now. If a teacher fails to take attendance, they are legally responsible and can be held accountable for any thing that happened to that child in the meantime. We are considered to be “En loco parentis” during school hours.

There is a lot more to this issue than you realize.

OK- let me correct that in case you take it literally. I do not mean that they have to physically be in their chair to be marked present (though I have used it as a threat with kids who won’t stop talking and sit the F* down… but that’s with HS age kids). They just need to be in class. Didn’t want to confuse anyone or give the impression that I’m going to mark a kid absent and have the cops sent to get his mom because he was sharpening his pencil. Though we all know that sharp pencils aren’t allowed in classrooms anymore anyway. Safety first!! (can anyone find the sarcasm?)

I sure do get it! I feel terribly for the driver. I should have done my civic responsibility, boiled up some water, taught my kids a mini science lesson on how to melt ice quickly (Salt? Hot water? Blowing on it? Peeing on it? Hey…toilet training included!) and carried the garbage can back to where it belongs.

Do I think the law is stupid? Yes. Would I have lobbied my state legislator against it? Yes. Would I have sent letters? Yes. Would I have helped vote him/her out of office? Yes. But I take responsibility very seriously and I make a point of showing my daughter whenever possible that we are not above common law. Which is often very hard because or family often faces a great deal of legal prejudice. And we fight against it while living by ridiculous constraints.

Back when I was a student, Mom and I quickly learned that a simple note from her excused my infrequent absences, but that no note could excuse a tardiness. So, if I was running late, we simply decided that I’d simply stay home that day. Stupid but true.

This story, however, is much stupider. Also, unfortunately, just as true. Grr…

Jenny-I again don’t agree with the arrest. However, if the same house had left garbage cans out 10 times already this year, I have no problem if the sanitation department reminds them of the law and if still not in compliance fines the homeowner.

I see this cropping up too much as I scan comments:
{Repeatedly being late shows everyone else “your time is less valuable/important than mine”.}

Too general and critical, folks. I know it’s true for some, but not true for all.

I was late to school for most of 5th year. I needed to watch my 2 year old brother in between the times my grandmother left for work and my mother (who worked nights) came home. My grandmother was often a little late for work to get us ready for the day. If my mother raced home from work, which she did, I was only 5 minutes late to school.

I think public school teachers are held to unreasonable standards for what can be accomplished and when. We MUST fix this. I also think parents are being held to unreasonable standards, especially in the responses when there is no tolerance for a little lateness (10 minutes is different than 30).

I’m not saying the school as a system should shrug it’s figurative shoulders when a child is chronically late — my school certainly didn’t, there were consequences for my tardiness — but socially, interpersonally, we should understand that there are differences in what we can accomplish.

And here, on this board, we should understand that we are in different parts of the country, we have different limits for patience, we have different personalities in our families. And there are so many other variables. It all affects what we are able to do.

My thoughts with this mother. As said before: I hope the judge was full of compassion and parental common sense.

PS If mothers were held to today’s rules a few decades ago, my mother probably would have been arrested. Yet she’s a great role model for women: independent, the second one of her family to get a college education, the only one to get a master’s degree, a successful career, two successful & independent kids. And she’s chronically late to just about everything except work. Not that she thinks she’s more important, she just cannot judge how much time something will take.

Long response. The criticism over tardiness made me mad, but teachers – do not think I’m unaware of how difficult a tardy child makes a class structure. Christi, I knew before but your explanation made it more clear for me.

PS, I spanked my kid for dawdling this morning. Are you happy?

When I was at school they typically punished the child which was pretty stupid since the school has no way of knowing who was to blame and the child has no control over whether their parents leave on time. And similarly for a number of other things that resulted in punishment where the responsibility could very well have rested with the parents.

If there is some chronic problem with lateness, then it does make sense to figure out why with the parents, but arresting and prosecuting someone seems petty at the very least, and definitely a waste of resources. I do think every effort should be made to be there on time. A child being difficult is hardly a valid excuse. There may be extreme exceptions, but in general it’s something the parents have to solve.

Not being able to drop your child off more than half an hour before school is pretty dumb too, so the authorities are themselves contributing to the problem. On my way to my old office at 06h30 I’d see children who had been dropped at the school I drove past. That’s a good 90 minutes before the start of the school day. But it’s allowed here. In fact I’d have to drop my child off at that sort of time, so that a 20 minute drive didn’t take more than an hour. And if arriving very early wasn’t allowed I’d have no problem telling the school to take a hike if we’re occasionally late.

I remember at university I had a lecturer who would go completely bananas if someone came in late. And we’re not talking about a chronic problem or regular repeat offenders. No-one really wanted to explain to this guy that simply ignoring it and carrying on was in fact far less disruptive than spending several minutes ranting and raving.

Of course whether one has to arrive at work at a specific time depends very much on your business. In my working life I’ve arrived at work anywhere from 06h30 to 10h00. One of the great benefits of being an adult is that I have that flexibility.

Oh, and I am up again after an hour and a half of sleep, because life. I am going to be slow today because life. Who should be punished?

Diane– never said what grades I teach…

I don’t see this parent as a habitual late person. When I was working, I had people who were late habitually – at least 2 or more times a week. I asked that they adjust their hours and work later. My husband is one of these habitually late people. As a result, we eat dinner later than I would like. I deal with it.

Being 10 minutes or so late every couple of weeks…sorry, not going to get my goat. 80% or better of the time they are are time. My daughter’s school bus had a worse record. Why should a parent be held to higher standards than the school bus?

Yes, the kids may not learn all they need to learn – but 10 minutes every couple of weeks? Kids lose more than that by going to the bathroom, which as a normal human function I hope that all the teachers are allowing the kids to do.

All this is much ado about nothing. A kid who is late 3-5 days a week, yes there is an issue. I don’t see this so much with this parent.

I’m certified to teach K-12. I’ve taught every grade K-5 as well as 8, 9 and 10. I’ve taught in both the private and the public system. I graduated from my masters program with a 4.0 and my undergrad degree is from a very prestigious college. My writing has been published in books that remained for weeks on the NYT best seller list. I did not miss a day of school from the 3rd grade through the 12th grade, despite some of my parents’ best efforts to keep me home, and that was of my own doing and my own interest. Any other aspects of my qualifications or background that need to be addressed?

Christi, I spend a lot of time at school sorting through stories to find out what happened. As a teacher, you know there is always two sides to a story. Just found it a lot easier than I thought for this situation (less than ten minutes). I kept saying that there has to be more to this story but those who support the mother just can’t use their judgement and see that there could be a reason for the arrest (not jail time but a $3000 bond). People should really take the time to think before posting on here…

Being free range means learning to deal with things and not avoiding consequences, yes, but that means REASONABLE consequences, not outrageous ones. You do not take a sledgehammer to put in a thumbtack unless you want to break the wall.

You keep saying things like “this must not be the whole story,” but at the same time, you are condoning this arrest for the story as given. Even if it were a hypothetical situation, you are reacting based on the given information, and agreeing with an over-the-top reaction.

There is a difference between a law enacted to protect people and property in our society, and a regulation put into place at the behest of people with an interest in having things run a certain way (not necessarily for the betterment of society, just for their, or their organization’s, benefit.) Criminal prosecution for the latter has become more and more common. I find this frightening. Let’s step back, remember people are human, and stop trying to impose our own personal belief structure on everyone else. Loosen up, lighten up, and you will probably have less stress in your life – at least if others will let you. The world does not generally rise or fall on whether or not people are early or late, no matter how you, personally, might feel about it. Personally, I don’t like to be late, but I have been happily married to a man who can’t seem to be on time, no matter what, and I have learned to pick my battles. Our children are a little of each.

Remember, someday, you may be on the other end of a self-righteous, over the top judgement – and I don’t think you will find it as pleasant to be on the receiving end. We are all just human, after all.

Truly, Christi and Jenn and others who claim to be teachers and are supporting actually ARRESTING a parent over something like this, PLEASE find another line of work. (I am actually wondering if you are, in fact, teachers, and not just trolls bent on making mischief on this website.) I am so very glad that my children did not have you for teachers. The few times my children did have people who thought like you, they had terrible school experiences. (My youngest, dyslexic, son was put in with a teacher who was very “structured” for fourth and fifth grades – against my wishes – where he was miserable and learned almost nothing. In previous years and subsequent years he had flexible teachers, was happy, and learned quite well. We had two wasted years thanks to that.)

Maternity leave

@SKL Older generations learned so much (usually better) in the same school hours without any homework and with a lot more recess.

It is likely, that kids learn better with recess than without. I know for a fact, that I can achieve more if I’m giving myself active breaks (small walk, few push ups). And I’m an adult.

I especially want to state my agreement with Jane‘s last posting. There have been many here supporting the arrest as-is. Yes some have said “there’s more to this story,” but many have been all too eager to support an arrest based simply on lateness.

And lateness should NOT be cause for an arrest. Period. It’s an extreme overreaction. Again, if someone is struggling to get their children to school, they should be helped & encouraged on how to do this better, not criticized and told “get your lazy a** out of bed” etc. That’s just not the kind of society I’m for.

LRH

“And she’s chronically late to just about everything except work. Not that she thinks she’s more important, she just cannot judge how much time something will take.”

Except that she obviously CAN judge how much time something will take when it is important to her. If she couldn’t, she wouldn’t be on time for work either.

“I can’t think of any other place (except maybe a standardized testing location or a quiet theatre) where you’re not allowed to come in late if you want to”

Work. Some employers will allow you to adjust your hours, many will simply fire you after awhile, particularly jobs tied to time clocks.

Court. Don’t come on time and you may find yourself in jail on a bench warrant.

Meetings with me and many other people. Of course shit sometimes happens, but if you’re going to be late every single time we arrange to do something, we’re simply never going to arrange to do anything. I don’t have the patience to sit around and wait for you every time.

While I do not think anyone should be arrested for tardy kids, this “I can be late whenever I want because I’m not a morning person or I can’t judge how much time things take, or I’m up late and can’t get up early … which all basically boils down to I’m special and your time is not important to me” is also mindboggling to me. I try to be on time but am not completely militant about it. Emergency delays happen. Occasional bad mornings happen. People sometimes lose track of time. Repeated complete disregard for the time that things are scheduled is simply rude and disrespectful to the other people involved, whether it’s school, work or friends.

Taking this woman at her word, she was not at the stage and I’m not referring to her at all. But many of her supporters here seem to be taking a stance that being on time should NEVER matter and nobody should ever required to be on time for anything at all. We are all “special” and should all be able to do things in our own time and everyone else should respect that. There’s a point in both directions where the behavior of the people is absurd. Arresting someone for tardiness at school is clearly on one side and consistent, blatant disregard for everyone else’s time is another.

Oh, Cheryl, you reminded me of my mom and my little brother decades ago.

Little bro has a September 30 birthday and ambliopia. (We learn later that his eye doc used a wrong medication and basically killed one eye – it is not correctible.) Does great in KG and 1st; tests into advanced 2nd grade. 2nd grade teacher finds everything wrong with the kid. Granted, his handwriting is poor and he’s about as mature as the youngest boy in the class (which he is). He can’t physically keep up with essentially 3rd grade work. He either gets 100% or 0%. Teacher makes him “do over” or gives him no credit because of his “lazy” handwriting. Mom files his schoolwork for future reference.

Kid gets lousy report card and meets with mom. Mom demands meeting with principal. Mom brings all school papers.

Teacher claims to mom and principal: “he doesn’t care. He won’t do his work. He’s too immature. He needs to be held back.” Mom pulls out large stack of papers. “Explain this to me. All these papers are completed. 100%. 0%. A. F. . . .” Teacher stammers.

Mom demands child be tested for special ed. Principal and teacher gasp in shock and horror. (Apparently no parent ever initiates that discussion?) Boy is tested. Boy is fine. Boy gets transferred to another 2nd grade where the teacher treats him like a 2nd grade boy.

(But boy hates school now and never really recovers motivation until junior high school.)

But apparently the teachers here would love to see my mom in jail because some of her older kids had a lot of tardies. Teachers are always blameless.

Thank you, Christi – what has had me concerned was your stated agreement with said law. You quite blatantly applauded the arrest in your first post, and have seemed, in subsequent posts, to be agreeing with a rather harsh set of regulations. This last post is the first one in which you have CLEARLY said that maybe an arrest – given the information we have been going on – was not the most appropriate reaction. (You hinted at it, but did not say it outright.)

And given the proclivity for Child Protective Services to remove children first and ask questions later, I am not sure that starting with them is the best thing. (Don’t get me wrong – my daughter and son-in-law work in a facility for troubled youth, and some kids need to never see a biological parent again, but this is not the usual case in society.)

And as for changing unreasonable laws – sometimes the best place to start is on the inside. Teachers do have some voice (although, if what you say about your lesson plans is true, less in your district that others.)

Christi, actually, I wasn’t talking about 100 years ago or one-room schoolhouses. I was talking about myself, my siblings, my mom, and most of the older adults who did not have significant learning problems. We keep hearing about how standards are so much higher nowadays, but kids aren’t actually learning more or coming out of school more competent. (I mean, if your baseline is a few decades ago when the public schools went to hell in a handbasket, then yeah, but I don’t think we should use our most pathetic educational years as a benchmark.)

But like I said, I used to be an ed major, so I’ve heard all the excuses. Tests are horrible, accountability is horrible, parents are horrible, bla bla bla. But the fact is, you have those kids for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week. That’s more time than a lot of parents have with their kids. So own it.

My mom is also one of those people who can’t seem to be on time to save her soul. She’s agorrophobic and the more she thinks about getting out the door, the more paralyzed she feels. The family just assumes that she will be an hour late to every event and plans around it. When she’s early (and she is getting better), it’s a bonus.

My mom is the last person to be accused of a superiority complex. She’s more in danger of feeling depressed, ashamed, even paranoid over her shortcomings.

Perhaps this is one reason why she was a bit understanding if our efforts to get to school on time were not always successful.

I like the idea of retrieving a Retriever.

@ SKL -really “Teachers are always blameless”? Seriously??? Come sit in my classroom any day and see how it’s `my’ fault that A learned how to cuss, that B doesn’t bring home the school newsletter, that C pulled a knife on D, that E doesn’t have his gym shoes, or that F can’t concentrate because it’s too far to walk to the food bank so there was no dinner or breakfast last night, or that G slept in a car last night and punched a classmate who wanted to borrow a pencil. I work at an urban low-income school where attendance is an issue. We have numerous incentive programs that are funded by the teachers’ own pockets. Myself and four other teachers take turns in the morning, picking up kids at home to ensure they get to school. If you actually saw what happens with some of these kids and how much the SCHOOL is doing to support them, to feed and clothe them, and to love them, you’d see that sometimes, a drastic measure needs to be taken in order to help the family. We have one family that for one reason or another, despite many problems, doesn’t qualify for a range of social services. But we do know that if the police is involved, they will get all the support they need. I know of an administrator that with the parent’s agreement called the police, and thanks to that call, the family got a ton of support and is starting to move on from their problems.

I know that I could have cited the websites that show that this is not the mother’s first time being involved in the courts, but I thought that because she was not cited on the post here, I wouldn’t out her. She’s got enough to deal with and I figured that I didn’t want to start people personally contacting her.

I’m not sure why people are attacking my abilities as a teacher. What I post on here is not reflective of what I do in my classroom. Most teachers are very good at keeping their private life and private thoughts out of the classroom. I know that I am good at what I do and am passionate about ensuring that all children have a future. Reason that I’m posting today is that I’m not in the classroom today but have been in and out of consults with social workers, lawyers and the police because one of my students was caught in an armed robbery and claims he was at school on the day of the robbery. My attendance record is being called up as evidence that he was not present at school that day (or week).

Jenn – I am probably the one you are referring to over attacking your abilities as a teacher. The reason is, you seem to find the small things overwhelming to the point that you think the arrest of a parent is an appropriate way to deal with tardiness. (Other data aside, that is what is being discussed here.) In my many years of parenting (four kids, one of whom is hard of hearing, one of whom is dyslexic, and one of whom is academically gifted), the sort of teacher I have found to be LEAST effective is concerned with things like tardies. The best have been flexible and didn’t sweat the small stuff. They just taught and spread an enthusiasm for learning.

From what you say, you have genuine problems in you classroom – parents who do not nourish their children adequately, students assaulting other students, and real criminals who are actually truant for large stretches of time. With all of this going on, how can you lump a parent who has children tardy into this mix? They are on a whole different spectrum from real criminal problems. To criminalize a parent simply because children are tardy detracts from the other, real, criminal issues.

Seriously, you sound like you are burning out, and maybe you should at least find a less-stressful school in which to teach. Maybe then you could put things into the proper perspective.

As I have said, I have a degree in education, and am the daughter and granddaughter of women who taught until they couldn’t any more.
I myself taught preschool and substituted in the public schools until I realized that I would not be able to stand the bureaucracy’s idiocy – which often had little to do with actually teaching children and more to do with things like tardiness and days attended – and and keep my mouth shut, so I chose not to teach. I have regretted it occasionally, but only until yet another event dealing my kids and their schools reminded of why I did not pursue my career. I am not totally ignorant of what and how much teachers do. I do know, though, that neither my mother and grandmother ever obsessed over tardiness in students to the point that they thought someone should be arrested. They were too busy teaching.

This is a true outrage. It sounds like this family has a couple different challenges they are dealing with. I am usually a very punctual person but come on… jail time for mom because the kids are late to school? They should be ashamed.

Another reason to avoid public schools…

SKL: Try to see the other side of this: The woman in this article has a lot more going on that she did not reveal in her post. She failed to mention that she already has charges against her. When you break the law repetitively, there isn’t an opportunity for a softer treatment because of your prior history. I kept saying that there is another side to this story because I keep an open mind. I don’t read everything I see in the media and accept it as the truth. Perhaps more time spent on media literacy is a requirement for parents too!

The phrase “teachers are always blameless” is quite offensive and can’t be taken as anything but. I accept responsibility for my actions as well as most of my colleagues. We have a professional body that also regulates us to ensure that we do act in accordance to our oath (similar to the Hippocratic Oath of doctors). When you say that we are ALWAYS blameless it’s saying that we never take responsibility for what we do and that is far from the truth. Just because you had a bad experience doesn’t mean that every teacher is a problem.

@Jane and @Andy- Taught at a high-income school and would not go back! That school was full of helicopter types and was stressful in a different way that I didn’t enjoy. Where I teach now, I know that I am respected, appreciated and even loved by my students and families. Despite a few bad apples, it totally makes it worth it because with these kids, I know that I am making a difference and the difference is not about getting into the best school but the difference between a life of a crime to becoming a well-respected professional. These kids really need teachers who care and I can’t let them down.

@Jane- I never applauded the arrest, I said that I wish there were something similar where I live because we have students with upwards of 100 lates/absences and there is no consequence. With lates/absences that high (and without valid reasons), how will these kids succeed? The parents in these situations view the school system as a joke and are harming their child’s chance of success (whatever that may be). Keeping your child home or away from school over 100 times in one school year is a crime, legally and figuratively against those poor kids. Arresting the parents may be one step towards ensuring that the child gets the support he or she needs.

What do prior charges against the adult in this case have to do with her being hauled in for contributing to the delinquency of a minor on the grounds of having an average of one tardy every two weeks?

If you’re being audited for tax evasion and a cop happens to see you jaywalk, should you therefore be hauled in for driving while intoxicated?

@Jenny Islander -I googled the woman’s name and found her blog, Facebook page, plus multiple court records with her priors. Didn’t really need the court records as she discusses her problems rather openly on her blog. I would guess that when truancy got involved they did a little digging and found the records, saw that she was late again (and we don’t know if these lates are from the start of the school year or the start of this school term) and decided to act. She also has an ex-husband and what looks like a nasty custody battle, which led to allegations of domestic abuse (from both parents).

She uses her full name on another place on this blog. I saw it a couple of days before it became the outrage of the week. Because she listed where she lived as well, it was pretty easy to find her.

“I have spent a great deal of time around people who obsess about other people’s timeliness, and frankly, they seem to be the ones who think their time is worth more than anyone else’s. Sad, but it has been my experience.”

I’d love to know how your logic dictates that someone who sets up a meeting with you and shows up on time and ready to go is somehow in the wrong and has an elevated sense of their own time when she gets frustrated because you are late (for no legitimate emergency)? So anyone that isn’t thrilled to be delayed by you thinks too highly of themselves?

Donna, I said obsess about. The sorts of people I am referring to are the ones who consider no excuse adequate, and if someone does tend to be late, they consider that person to be somehow less than they are. Your indignation at what I said is a case in point. What you think is so much more important than what I think? Really? How about a bit of tolerance. That is what I am objecting to, more than anything else – the intolerance for anyone who does not think as you do. Do I like to kept waiting (even by my much-loved husband)? No, but I don’t become enraged about it. I try to remember that we are all human, and practice patience. Am I perfect about it? No, and if I am having a bad day, my attitude is worse. But I don’t regard time and the clock as the center of my life. I have known people who do, and they tended to be rather full of themselves, taking any lateness personally and being quite nasty about it. I am speaking only from personal experience, though. I am not a psychologist, and do not claim to be an expert on human behavior. I simply offer up my own person observations.

Can someone please start a judgmental blog so we can just have a discussion of the issue at hand here and send the judgments elsewhere?

OK, let me have it for not starting it myself…and for being judgmental.

Goodnight, and see y’alls at 5:45 tomorrow morning!

Wow, that is a lot of comments. I admit I haven’t read every comment between my comment and here, but I did read a bit.

Starting with the last: Sera, your school system sounds better than ours. US public schools are very top heavy. Schools are failing, and the solution is a top down fix that apparently sees nothing wrong with micromanaging down to the 10 minute block. It is not a recipe for success. My outlook does not see a correlation of 7 latenesses and a highly dysfunctional family. And perhaps I am naive as someone’s research tells us the arrested mom has prior arrests. But whatever the dysfunction is should be the focus, and not any minor correlations. Arrest is the states power to abridge liberty. If I faced arrest for something like this, I would consider resisting. We are now talking about 7 10 minute latenesses escalating into a life and death situation. The state has no mechanism to back down. There is not the bad person arrest distinct fom the parking ticket arrest. Support for arrest, is in my opinion, support for the potential death penalty. Hence my disgust at such strong measures to handle, a school inadequacy. IMO.

Public schools reason or being is the idea that some children would not get schooling if it was not provided free or everyone. Somehow most children eat without free meals for everyone. If I am late to a movie, I might miss a key plot point, but I’ll get over it. My view is that schools are a service to the families, and it is the families that should be the judge of the schools. If a school doesn’t meet my needs, I will search or one that does. In a properly run world, all families could do this. If the market didn’t support a school that hypermanges kids with no stellar results to compensate for the irritations. That would be a good thing. So in compromise with those that still believe in free education for all, I support vouchers. This preserves the market mechanism and puts control over schools in the hands of the families.

For those teachers with the sob stories about how bad their students are, I suggest they find out about the Marva Collins way. Her example proves the problem is the schools or teachers, and not the students. Google the 60 minutes specials that give a glimpse, or read about her success in the book Mindset.

As it is unschooling or Sudbury schools look much better to me than a public school system with teachers that would have a parent killed over lateness. If I were a teacher, my conscience dictates that I hide the absences from the authorities. Anyone who thinks arrest does not equal potential death is also naive.

Wow… reading transcripts from previous court hearings and other information that is readily available out there about this woman makes it CLEAR that she is using this forum and the people in it to further her own screwed up agenda.

This is the FIRST TIME in the history of the law allowing parents to be arrested for their child’s truancy that the local police have felt it necessary to follow up on the school’s report. That that in and of itself indicates that there is clearly something more to the case than the woman owned up to. Important an issue as this was to discuss, we were all pawns in her own mind games.

In sure she did, and I’m not the only one who was able to find it! Maybe if more people employed some of those useless research skills thrown at them by unsympathetic, critical, insensitive and just-plain-evil teachers they could find it too! Or perhaps too many people were late those days to catch the beginning of the lesson…

As far as I know the only two people on here who have been able to find it are the two “teachers” arguing adamantly against this woman. I admit, I am dyslexic and and sometimes “miss” things in print as it it something I have always struggled with. That is why I was asking for help. :/

Can’t say there is anything terribly surprising in the fact that two teachers had the skills to look past all of the malarkey, find the relevant details and research the facts!

Jenn already gave directions on where to find the information.

Ok, I reread EVERY post Jenn posted. The only one that come close to directions is this one:

“She uses her full name on another place on this blog. I saw it a couple of days before it became the outrage of the week. Because she listed where she lived as well, it was pretty easy to find her.”

That still does not tell me where to find it. Was it on a previous post’s comment section? Was it on a comment in the FAQ section? Was it in a comment on the “For or Against” section? She did not give any more info then this. Help! I want to make an informed judgement based on my own research and not what someone I don’t even know on a blog tells me is true or not true. I have looked and looked and do not see it anywhere.

Ooh a witch hunt…let me go to the garage and get my pitchfork, Christi!

Sam, after a bit more research the original comment was made under the paper airplane post on January 23. Hope that helps. Either way, no matter what her past – I personally am not going to even bother looking her up – we shouldn’t be judgmental and say she’s a bad parent. As Lenore said, we are all imperfect parents and all have our weaknesses. We should support each other and ESPECIALLY those families who entrust their children to us to teach. We should be striving to help them. Arresting for lateness doesn’t help anyone. (Yes I am a former teacher and have a hard time understanding the outrage of the other two teachers on this post.) 🙁

Thanks, Lynda! (You would have been the type of teacher I would have wanted in school.) 🙂 And thank you LRH for understanding the frustration. As a dyslexic it can be embarrassing to even have to ask and when you are told to “look it up yourself” it just makes you feel that much more like a loser. I read and reread posts and was unable to find it. Now that Lynda told me where to look I can get all the facts. I really hope you don’t treat the kids in your care like that, Christi. 🙁

Thanks everyone. Not sure why my last post has Lynda’s name unless when I was copying and pasting it I accidentally hit it under my name spot, LOL. (I was in a hurry, so it’s possible. Unless it’s site glitch.) I wasn’t going to post anymore but the only Maureen Blake I found under court/criminal records so far has 4 children and this lady only has three. So maybe it’s a different Maureen Blake? Either way, I agree no matter what her past, arresting parents for tardy kids does not make sense.

I don’t get why a couple of people on here are saying that we don’t know the whole story and that she deserved to be arrested. Here’s the story in the paper:

http://www.leesburg2day.com/news/article_dd93fc32-4870-11e1-b8a4-001871e3ce6c.html

All the information we have already. If there is more to it, then wouldn’t they have arrested her on the higher charge? The question is, does a “tardy” count as a day missed? It seems to me that they can have a 2 hour delay or an early dismissal of 2 hours and it still counts as a day of school and doesn’t have to be made up. So when does 10 minutes equal missing a day of school? And if it does not equal missing a day of school, then she was not breaking any compulsory attendance laws, right? Seem pretty clear cut to me in the legal sense.

Jenn, you could have been a little more direct in your first post after you did your research. It (and several thereafter) did not come across as if you researched her, but as if you made wild assumptions in judging her.

And Jenn and Christi, you go on about how we don’t all know the “whole story,” and yet you too are engaging in very selective reporting, so you aren’t helping matters at all. Your self-serving comments implying that because you had the motivation (bias, proving your point) and the time (off work), teachers must be the best researchers in the world. Well, hail to you! Personally I am not motivated to spend my time digging for dirt on some mom who has done nothing to harm me – or, alternatively, to disprove the allegations you guys are making.

So it has become clear – which we always assume anyway – that there is more to this story. I really don’t care how much more. The fact is that knowing only what was reported in the original post, both of you stated that you were glad this woman got arrested and you’d love to see more moms being arrested and/or losing their kids or having similarly family-unfriendly results over tardies alone. And that, not the woman’s past arrest record, is what we’ve been arguing about. Nice to know that teachers believe kids should be separated from their parents if the parents don’t put the teachers on a high enough pedestal.

I read the linked news article (thanks, Elizabeth). So the truant officer pushed for the arrest. I would love to know the truant officer’s personal education record. The one in our school used to include in her lecture: “you don’t want to be like me and end up never finishing high school.” So she was a dropout (who apparently was still able to find a job) and yet she spent her career telling off and harassing people who were a couple of minutes late to homeroom. (So, you know, they missed the pledge and the previous evening’s sports scores.)

[Not that anyone cares, but when I said “file the substantive info away” in my last post, I meant in my brain, not in an actual file.]

by the way i was found innocent but that’s a hard detail to find if you do a search on me. also one of you mentioned she was going through a nasty custody battle. that couldn’t be a factor in her arrest could it .like maybe her husband has friends in high places. because as far as you to seem to be concerned, being in a custody battle must mean she’s a rotten mother[not]

@Sera, re your remark that a child who is habitually tardy must be a delinquent or from a dysfunctional home:

Is there no one who lives such a tightly scheduled life, what with paid work, child care, home care, and the need for sleep, that one little issue in the morning can make compliance with the school’s schedule impossible? And I repeat: with an average frequency of one tardy every two weeks. Here is a brief list of things that can tack ten minutes onto a busy morning routine, drawn from my own life with three kids: constipated child, child with diarrhea, a child who always acts like a butthead the day before she gets sick and that’s today, a child who always melts down in tears at the littlest thing the day before she gets sick and that’s today, cat threw up, toilet is acting up, zipper jammed and it’s below zero out there so you must fix it now.

And once again (and again and again), why should someone who has arguably broken the rule (statute? law?) about having children to school on time, but nevertheless has gotten those children to that school, be arrested on a charge of having contributed to delinquency? And, no, “Your record says you’re a bad mom so obviously if we don’t nip this in the bud you will stop bringing them to school at all–to court with you!” does not fly. The court is not supposed to pretend to see the future.

Tardy kids ended up in detention when I was in public school. Putting kids in detention even if their parents were to blame for not getting them out the door on time was unfair, but didn’t involve starting the grinding machinery of court time, the threat of foster care, potential job loss, criminal records, etc., etc., etc., as punishment for being tardy. They all graduated, got jobs, and became more or less solid citizens. No felons that I know of, and my hometown paper keeps track.

Getting detention for being late teaches that if you can’t budget your time, you don’t get to play with your time. What did those children learn from the experience of having Mom taken away in handcuffs?

I too believe tardiness has consequences. But they are natural consequences. No need for external consequences. I would not be outraged at a school that didn’t make special accommodations for the tardy. And tardy students should be a defense against a teacher not meeting all educational goals with a child. But I would judge a school superior to another if tardiness wasn’t such a huge deal.

Apparently parents have discovered that schools tolerate absence better than tardiness, and if the child gets to school on time, they can be pulled from school many hours early without issue with the system.

I think some people love their rules more than any other considerations. That is another reason for less rules.

Those things that can tack 10 minutes on aren’t that big of a deal if you build 10 extra minutes of padding into your morning. I have to be at work at 9 a.m. I typically leave to catch the train at 8 a.m. and get to work 10 minutes early, giving myself a window of 10 minutes in case things happen, which they have. This morning I spent two or three minutes looking for my keys. A few days ago I had to clean up a hairball that the cat left. At least once every two weeks I have to spend three or four minutes helping my husband look for either his work badge, his wallet or his cellphone just as we’re getting ready to walk out the door. We can be as disorganized as the next person, but the key is that we KNOW that about ourselves and know that we need to be ready to go early to compensate for the random dumb things we do, like leave a cellphone in with the silverware.

To the argument that promptness is directly related to success: I would love to see scientific data on that.

There was a commenter a while back who complained that lazy parents were the reason why kids arrived at his college class late. Maybe not. Maybe their tardiness is a part of the same “who I am” as the motivation and abilities that brought them to college in the first place.

Have you ever read some of the stuff that’s been written about how engineers’ minds work? (There are always exceptions, but allowing that, hear me out.) They need and thrive on flexibility. They think outside the box and do not think as well inside the box. Employers (and others) who take the effort to understand how the most creative people operate, and adjust “the box” accordingly, will bring out the best in these folks. Obviously, calling them names and assigning out-of-proportion consequences will not.

Don’t take this to mean that I am against attendence rules (as in, school is M-F Xam to Xpm and you will have reasonable consequences if you blow off the schedule). But don’t overgeneralize the evils of coming late to class, either. I happen to know quite a few very successful (and nice!) people who served lots of “tardy” detentions.

I never said anything as strong as that punctuality is THE key to success, or that it “assures” success, or that not being punctual means that you’re never successful, or whatever ridiculous extreme you’re taking my words to now, but I’m pretty damn certain that punctuality LIMITS success and employability.

Let’s see if I can get these links through without getting moderated. Remove the spaces to get to them.

w ww.dumblittleman.com/2011/03/why-punctuality-matters-and-how-to-be.ht ml

w ww.skillsone.com.au/industry/179/advice/video/702/key-elements-3–the-importance-of-punctuality-1/

http://jobaccess.gov.au/Advice/JobRequirement/Pages/Being_punctual.as px

As for “scientific data”, I’ll see what I can find. Challenge accepted.

Every time I read one of the comments that explains how parents can reduce tardiness, I get an urge to add my two cents worth. Because believe it or not, this is something I’m working with my kids on every day. I have discovered a few ideas that might even be useful to others in the same boat. But I’m not posting them, because of what it might imply in this context. Just because there are practical strategies to stay under the tardy radar, that doesn’t mean that having tardy kids makes a mom unfit. If apply that standard to other areas – obesity, behavior, low grades, respect, sleep habits, bla bla bla – why, the majority of parents would find themselves unfit. So let’s not go there.

That said, I think it would be fun to have a non-emotional discussion (separate from this) for free-range ideas to help kids learn to manage their schedules. I’m sure many of us have good ideas and could learn from each other. Have we already done this on FRK or could it be done at some point?

Augh, my comment got eaten by moderation! (I think.)

Challenge completed:

Here is a masters’ thesis submitted in 2004 to what seems to be a fairly highly-ranked university (University of Wisconsin).

Again, remove the spaces to access it.

http://ww w2.uwstout.edu/content/lib/thesis/2004/2004weadeb.pdf

This thesis comes complete with a well-referenced literature review which discusses the following:

– Employers look for punctual employees
– Tardiness and absenteeism are very common grounds for firing
– Tardiness negatively impacts productivity and profits
– Employers DO track tardiness

The thesis work itself addresses the following questions (among others):

– Is tardiness at school indicative of tardiness at work? (Yes, it is).
– Does tardiness have an effect on grades? (Yes, it does. A negative one.)

I hope this, er, helps, or whatever.

Honestly… out of all the things my university-taught research skills have been applied to, “find evidence that employers don’t like tardiness” has got to be one of the strangest.

It’s interesting that so many teachers are saying that parents should come up with strategies to deal with lateness while they themselves refuse to do so and/or have excuses about why they can’t. It’s also interesting they’re fine with maternity leave during the school year, but not with kids taking vacation during the school year or even a total of 70 minutes of personal time over several weeks. With a bit more planning teachers can just have babies during summer break, right? Why don’t we make that a law?

If your career doesn’t let you be 15 minutes late due to a doctor’s appointment or repair man coming, please let me know what it is so that I can teach my children to avoid that career like the plague. If society means not having choices in your own life, then I AM very much anti-society. When I got up this morning there was a major problem with all of our drains. My choices were; A. Say “we’re taking today off from work and school and we will make it up on another day,” then spend half the day arranging a plumber, digging up snow over the drains he would need access to, and doing things like turning the water on and off when he needed it to be done or B. “Go to” work and “get” my kids to school at 8am sharp and be unable to do anything about the problem. If I followed the rules of some of the people here, the kids would be up to their knees in poopy toilet water and I’d be in jail for letting the kids miss a bit of school. Instead they watched the man work from a safe distance as I answered their questions, and they learned a bit about plumbing (something that will likely help them a lot more in real life than memorizing the answers to the standardized tests will). I’m not going to get up 6 hours early every day in the future just in case something like this happens again. Sorry, everyone, but getting enough sleep to be mentally and physically healthy while still having time to spend with my family and partner in the evenings IS more important to me than your paycheck. My time IS more important than yours, if that’s how you want to say that. So don’t choose a job that depends on me getting up and ready by 8am on a regular basis.

I’m raising people that can function in real life; Not people that follow fake-world rules only due to fear of outlandish consequences. (And no, I don’t inconvenience all the people trying to uphold these fake-world rules and outlandish consequences by putting my kids in the middle of them.) If school taught you that when you are 15 minutes late to work due to a doctor’s appointment or repair man visit you will be fired and unable to get another job with more realistic expectations (like expecting you to be a human rather than a robot that serves no purpose other than to work that job), they lied to you. If school not only lied to you but also did not teach you the skills to choose a different job, why exactly should everyone send their kids there on time 5 days a week?

In real life, you get to choose your job. If you just can’t bring yourself to get up until 8am, you can choose a job that starts at 9am (or whatever time will allow you enough time to get up, ready, and to work). You can choose a job that starts at 11pm if you want. You can choose a job where you work whenever you feel like it on each particular day. You don’t have to take a job that starts at 8am and try to force yourself to get up at 7am and then end up late every day. You can choose to wait for a doctor’s appointment at noon next week, or take the 8am available tomorrow. If you’re late to that, you don’t get arrested – you just have to reschedule and be more honest with yourself, tell yourself not to schedule an appointment so early next time because getting up that early just isn’t for you. And you probably have to pay for both appointments. But you aren’t arrested, your parents aren’t arrested, the world doesn’t fall apart. Maybe the doctor gets to take a short break, or get some paperwork done early, and/or the next person in line for their appointment gets to go in a little bit earlier. The doctors and nurses and receptionists don’t stay there late waiting for the late patient and missing time with their families. If you are on time but the doctor is late, you don’t have the doctor arrested. You either deal with it or you choose a different doctor. So maybe the doctor makes a little less money. Or maybe he just ads on a new patient that wants appointments at a later time.

Not that I’m saying being chronically late is a good or even okay thing. Just that in the real world, YOU pick events and agree upon the time, and if you happen to be late for some reason, life goes on. If you are chronically late, you have the option of not agreeing to be somewhere at that time anymore. You – not your parents – suffer the natural consequences of your actions. So children must learn all of this and how to manage their own time. That’s one of those things that can only be learned by experience, not by example. And they are going to make mistakes at first. I’d rather they make those mistakes and learn from them as children; I don’t want them to have to realize that they’re not a morning person and should have chosen a job that starts at noon rather than 8am when they’ve got bills to pay. If the law is stopping people from actually educating their children, then that’s a problem.

There are a lot of comments and at some point I lost track of who exactly was making which points in an effort to simply take the whole thing in.

Sera said, “Honestly… out of all the things my university-taught research skills have been applied to, “find evidence that employers don’t like tardiness” has got to be one of the strangest.”

This also made me giggle, but then it did not seem to me that anyone was asking for evidence that employers don’t like tardiness. What has been said, or implied, is that being habitually tardy is not a life killer if you can find employment that is flexible. It does actually exist. I had one, which is funny because I am the opposite of habitually late, I am habitually early. Except the one time, when I was reading a book on the bus and was so engrossed in it I missed my stop and didn’t realize until I was two miles away. Being habitually early, and responsible for my own hours meant that I was walking out the door sometimes as early as noon on Fridays.

I will have to look into the rules in our district when my son starts K about tardiness vs absence. When I was in school, I was chronically ill throughout the winter, probably undiagnosed allergies, that always ended up as bronchitis. I missed a lot of school. As a Junior I ended up living by myself and because I could not sign my own absence notes until I turned 18, these common absences were a problem until I realized that all I had to do was be present for 1st period roll and then go to the office coughing up a lung and saying, “No, no, I can walk the six blocks home, theres no need to call,” and then because I had been counted already, there was no need for my mother to write a note.

Really, tardiness and absence rules begin to make no sense when a person learns how to play games within the system.

As many have already pointed out, the standardized educational system does not work well for everyone. It worked well for me, but then I was one of those irritating kids who was probably the teachers pet, yada yada. The more the system is streamlined, the fewer people it will serve well. The fewer people it serves well, the less educated the population. And so on, and so forth to your own personal version of dystopia.

Oh, and Sera, my second point was going to be: Hail to You for having University-Taught Research Skills. Why you felt the need to point that out (other than to attempt to put down those whose research skills were not University-Taught) I don’t know.

SKL,

I think the major problem we have in this discussion is what the defintion of “success” means. Could you please provide me with your defintion of “success”?

strict adherence to punctuality and respect for authority show a rigidity that is not conducive to real originality or creativity, and personally, as someone who appoints department heads at a large silicon valley tech-sector business, i’d try to stay away from such people.

all the true greats i’ve hired have been loose self-motivated self-starters who work on their own AND as part of a team – a team of equals, not a trickle-down authoritarian system.

@SKL according to stats I have read recently, American teachers have the most work in the western world. They spend more time by teaching than teachers in other countries. It seems unfair to accuse them of not working enough. Just saying.

@Sera there are plenty of good jobs where punctuality does not matter that much. Programming and administration, most technical work, most creative work for example. Basically, anything that does not happen in shifts and does not have frequent meetings with customers. All companies I worked for had flexible working hours, meaning that nobody cares when you come as long as you stay there 8 hours a day and produce results.

Andy, once again – is your sarcasm meter off? I’m not saying teachers don’t work enough. Please don’t twist people’s words. You are just making yourself upset. I said “cry me a river” because a teacher above implied that she would never be able to take time to deal with a personal emergency during work hours. That’s BS on two levels.

@SKL I meant this:

“Teachers have a heck of a lot more time off than most other full-time professions (not even including summer). ”

I did not meant to offend. Did not sounded like a sarcasm, sorry.

I don’t like the insinuation that successful jobs don’t require punching a clock. There are plenty of careers where you get paid hourly and are not salaried. I’ve got one.

“I don’t like the insinuation that successful jobs don’t require punching a clock. There are plenty of careers where you get paid hourly and are not salaried. I’ve got one.”

Oh, brother. That is not what I said. The writer of the paper that Sera linked is focused on jobs that require punching a clock. I never said those could not be successful jobs. I said a discussion of success could not be so narrow as to include only those jobs.

this started to feel like a chat room 🙂

s0nicfreak—Ditto, ditto and amen! I’ve never seen another post that so eloquently stated how I feel about raising kids, raising REAL people and society in general! Don’t you wish the whole world saw things this way?

Well said Jenn. Wish my kids could be in your classroom. We need more of you. Don’t let these idiots get you, because you are one of the only sane voices I have heard here.

My comments have not been mean; they have been pointed and accurate— pointed and accurate enough that some people are clearly uncomfortable in the fact that they are realizing that they are, perhaps, just a wee bit wrong. And, in self defense, are backing themselves into corners like scared kitties and lashing out.

First, to address the idea that I am inconveniencing students by taking maternity leave– please? My child was born in June. I took the first 5 months as allowed to me, paid, by my very generous school. I am taking the second 5 at a pay loss and not interrupting anyone’s school year. All of the children will have the same teacher all year long. I will pick up a new class in the fall.

Not working enough? I will be leaving the house at 6:15 AM with my kid in tow to drop her off at daycare at 7 to be at work by 7:10 for a school day that will start at 7:40. I will be there until after 4 most days, will drive 45 minutes home, spend some time with my family and then grade papers and plan lessons and respond to e-mails late into the night.

To all of the people who say they are glad I was not their child’s teacher– maybe I was. And maybe you loved me. Like Jenn, I have parents asking for their children to be put in my class. I have parents complaining when I do not teach their child’s grade that year. I am a very highly respected and highly valued teacher in my school because my students learn, they enjoy learning and they are in an environment where they and their families know there is structure, rigor and high expectations with the support needed to meet those expectations.

I have been very forthright in my comments here, and perhaps my views would be easier swallowed if sugar coated in niceties– but I save my sugar for people I know personally, interact with daily and feel the need to make nice with. Intellectual debate and sparring with strangers over the internet is not a place where I feel the need to make nice.

Was my first response flippant, a bit tongue in cheek and off the cuff? Sure. Do I stand by it? I stand by the spirit of it. If teachers are going to continue to be held accountable by parents to superhuman standards, than I am happy to see parents held to equally ridiculous standards. Equal treatment across the board.

Also- my suggestion that these cases could be well handled by children’s services was not the same as saying they should be removed from the house. Childrens Services, at least where I am, provides a lot of support to struggling families. Removing children from families is often the last resort. Though yes, in some instances, children should be removed for their own safety. Is this one of those cases? Despite the extra research I did I still don’t have enough information to say. Do I feel that the decision to make the arrest was probably based on some of the additional information the school and childrens service and court system already had on this family? Yes. Do I think that officers in VA are just ganging up on every kid that has been late to school? No.

I could go on… there is a plethora here to respond to… but I need to go get my kid to bed on time…

I’m sorry Jenn, but until you are willing to back up your sources, we can only assume that what you are saying is hearsay and perhaps even a bit fabricated. If you have a source that says her kids were late more than 7 times then you need to provide a link. If you are going to spread around that she has had children taken away and has lost multiple jobs because of tardiness, then there needs to be a solid source to back it up. Otherwise it’s just what you say and not based on factual sources, much like you claim this poor woman claimed. (If her blog is really that public that you could so easily find it, then a link wouldn’t be harmful.) Just my opinion.

there is self confident and there is self righteous. you come off as the second. i did not say that there were those making compaints against you i said there were those who don’t think your god’s gift to teaching. nor was i blaming the teacher who took the roll. i was disagreeing about the fact you thought it was a good thing. big difference. i don’t know how much actual hands on experiance you have with cps. there are good ones BUT they are few and far between. there average one wants to make their quota[whether not they admit on the record there is one] and do any way they can. as i said their default is to pull the child out and then you must prove your innocence[ in other words guilty til proven otherwise] and nobody is ever totally innocent in their eyes. so to say call cps is not the unharmful action you seem to think it is. as to your hours being more then most professionals prove it. i interact with quite a few teachers[and as i noted most are good caring people] but they always seem to have the free time to take on extra projects or take off to take care of personal business[not emergencies. i’m not saying this is a bad thing but keep it in perspective.

Christi — OK, you’re a teacher. Read 1984.Or Brave New World. Or Animal Farm.Or, if you don’t like classic dystopia, read The Hunger Games. Educate yourself.

When you start to squirell the question and add all sorts of poor behaviours and bad judgement calls to the definition of criminal activity, you create a police state.

There is absolutely NO justification for arresting ANYONE for ANYTHING that is not criminal behaviour. Full , complete, absolute stop. Didn’t all you people fight the British for freedom, while we Canadians took the more deferential tactic and talked our way into it?? What, are you now going to hand it over meekly while we hold onto it?

I too have 4 kids and one with ADHD that are rarely late for school. But being late for school is not listed in the Criminal Code in Canada, and it is none of the police’s business.If it became a criminal code offence, I would seriously consider getting arrested on purpose to fight a gross violation of my freedom.

It may be very disruptive to deal with late students. It always annoyed the heck out of me as a student. But disrupting a classroom is not a criminal activity in a free country. Perhaps the solution is families who have constant tardiness should be encouraged to look into alternative schooling (they have that here in BC right to the early grades, it’s awesome), etc. There are solutions — JAIL is not a solution.

OK, this libertarian is stepping off her soapbox.

@Christi I understand your complain that you are hold to ridiculous standards, and reading this discussion (and some others) I tend to agree with it. But demanding that parents are hold to ridiculous standards too solves nothing, it only adds fuel to the fire.

You only end up with too groups hating each other more and willing to cooperate less. You are making unnecessary enemies for no reason.

Anybody know the outcome of the court date?

Cin- I understand that your stance is based on a very rudimentary understanding of the US’s current education system. She was arrested for criminal behavior because what she did, by the letter of the law, was criminal. This was also the 3rd year consecutively that she was pulled in for meetings with the truancy officer… the first two years I believe she paid fines.

If you decided that civil disobedience was the route to take, then at least it would be a conscious act and your reporting of the situation would probably be more factual. In responding to this as a teacher, part of my ire IS directed at the fact that this is another parent who is just trying to f*** around with the system and people’s perspectives of her. Yes, I know that comment is going to make people angry. No, I don’t care. Teachers, like everyone else is society, deal with these self aggrandizing citizens every day. They broadcast their problems, twist the facts to suit their own purpose and manipulate those around them. If this woman had been systematically dropping her older children off 1 minute late every day for a year and documenting how successful her children were anyway to protest a ridiculous law and explained her actions as such, my feelings would be very different.

For a family to look into alternative schooling here in the US is usually cost prohibitive.

@Jenny Islander – can you read? You say the woman was arrested for a crime she did not commit. The law was x number of tardies can result in court action. If you read the woman’s own blog, she has been charged several times by the courts with truancy but this is the first time she was arrested. Her kids have an issue with being late. Not just a seven times thing, but as I can see from her own blog and admission, it’s an ongoing issue where her eldest two children would be hours late regularly. I reckon that she was arrested this time, rather than served papers to appear in court and pay a fine, was that maybe she was hostile or even aggressive towards the police. She does have a past where she has been abusive (not sure if it resulted in charges) and perhaps the police arrested because she was abusive towards them and knew she had priors and decided to handcuff.

@SKL and LRH – you two are some pieces of work. Doing a little search on various comment threads here and you both come off as judgemental, uneducated, and ignorant. You hold bureaucracy to a standard that is unattainable but ask the average person (or victim in your eyes) to be treated sympathetically. Just because you had your own issues with bureaucracy, schools, and CPS, doesn’t mean that those organizations are out to get people. You condemn people who belong to bureaucracy merely by association and you over-generalize. Perhaps if you attended school regularly, you would have refined or polished how to present effectively an issue without having to attack a person. You both come across as intelligent but obviously you were so close minded to your teachers that you did not allow them to help you realize your potential.

Many of you say that you can choose a career or job where punctuality is not a problem. Most people don’t get to choose their job or career, especially in today’s market. Most people can’t choose their job because their own education is limited or they have limited skills or travel is an issue for them (for personal, financial or medical reasons). Few people in society get to CHOOSE their career. Those who do are often those who were very successful in school (and punctual) and have the right opportunities. For most people, what it comes down to, you need to arrive at work on time to keep your job. Your employer may give you some flexibility and say arrive between 8-9 but if you keep showing up at 9:30, 10, or later, they aren’t going to be so flexible later on. Our society today values time and if you say you don’t, I challenge you to think of the time you had to wait to see a medical specialist for 6 months and then say in his office for three hours, or when the repair guy said he’d arrive at 10 but didn’t come until 2.

TJR, what exactly is the age of the older children? (Because I don’t really want to go through all the stuff to find this.)

If they are teens, well, why is she being charged and not them? The trend in serious crimes is to charge children as adults. But, we won’t charge them as adults for minor crimes?

At 5, 6, 7 and maybe 8, yes, the parent should be that parent. But at some point the kids need to be the ones who are charged, not the parent as the kids are old enough to get them selves out of bed.

If the child is older, and they don’t want to go to school, the issue is not tardiness usually, it is because the child does not WANT to be there. They do not see how school is going to help them in the future. If they wanted to be to a job on time (baring any mental illnesses or disabilities,) people will usually do what it takes to be there on time.

Because these kids have IEPs, I will take the stance that no matter their age, they have been lead to believe that they are dumb and lazy and no matter what they do they will never amount to anything. I wouldn’t want to go to a place like that either.

TJR, thanks for doing exactly what you accuse me of. I did not insult anyone here except in reaction to nasty things that others said. Apparently you agree with Christi and are happy to overlook the nasty things she said. Last night I was very tempted to cut and paste her many nasty quotes (against parents and kids in general and against people here) to show why other commenters (including myself) are reacting less than kindly to her and her supporters. Then I thought, nah, let it go; what’s said is said. But your implication that my comments here are the most antagonizing is quite ridiculous.

Yes, I am a person who found school very frustrating because it was made up of relatively undereducated people making arbitrary rules for everyone else. Not that I need to prove anything to you, but I happen to have a high IQ, an MBA, a CPA, and a JD / Attorney license and I’ve been successfully employed without a one-day gap since I was in grad school (with years of prior temp jobs under my belt during high school and college). If there is one recurrent theme in my comments, it is that I cannot stand institutionalized arbitrariness. I really don’t care if that offends you. I’m sure you have some strongly-held opinions that I disagree with as well.

As for “holding bureaucracy to a standard” – that is a funny way of putting it, since I would really rather bureaucracy step back and stay out of my life as much as possible. In recent decades, schools have been overstepping more and more into family life. School should focus on what happens during school hours. They should not be assigning mandatory homework review, home reading logs, etc. to be signed by parents. They should not be requiring anything that they can’t facilitate / enforce during school hours and on school premises. Otherwise the schools encroach on other experiences that are just as important, if not more so. This has been proven by research many times over. BUT since the school does insist on dissolving the boundary surrounding the school day, the school cannot expect parents to view school time as out of their realm of control. The “bureaucracy” can’t have it both ways.

Bureaucracy breeds all kinds of corruption and incompetence. Just look at how countries with relatively big bureaucracies fare. You have to bribe someone to get any normal everyday thing done, or wait for months or years for a service that you could get the same day in the USA. Look at the big bureaucracies in the USA – including the schools. They are failing their clients in so many ways – and constantly throwing good [tax] money after bad. So yes, I have a bad attitude about bureaucratic overreach. I wish more people did.

As a parent, I have two 5yos who are accelerated in school and doing very well. My youngest has a high IQ, has been reading fluently since shortly after she turned 4, and is well advanced in every area. It is unbelievable how unhelpful the school systems have been about getting her into school a little early (her birthday is in early January). “We don’t do that. We don’t do that.” I heard it dozens of times over the course of months before I finally found a person who might listen (talk about wasted time!). I offered to pay or take her myself to be tested – just tell me what evidence you need. Nope. We don’t do that. I explained that it would be a disaster for all involved if she had to wait another year to start KG. Too bad. We don’t do that. Bureaucracy at its finest! They were willing to make my kid wait a whole year to start KG, but if my kid shows up to class a couple minutes late, I’m ruining her life. Because the bureaucracy always knows best.

@Cheryl W, the oldest children are now older teens and have not been in her custody for a number of years because she allowed her second husband to abuse them. The tardiness she had with them was when they were in elementary school, about ten years ago.

Mother also never states that the children have an IEP just that she and her children have a disability. From what I can see on her blog, it is one of her children that has ADHD, just like her, but a diagnosis of ADHD is sometimes not enough for an IEP (and many individuals with ADHD do not need an IEP).

@LRH and @SKL – Did I say you insult people? But now that @LRH just called me stupid (how childish is that?) that puts things in a different light. Let’s go around calling people names just because we don’t agree with or they have a different point of view than us. Sounds like you are bigoted, prejudiced and once again, judgemental. You accuse Christy of acting superior but really – naming off all your `credentials’ just makes me laugh. What two bit junior college that accepts any body with a couple of bucks did you go to? Do you walk around with your IQ pasted to your forehead so you can intimidate people with your `superiority.? What about your parent of the year award because you child is a `genius’? You’ve been here for four days posting at all hours so sounds like you have a fulfilling life where you don’t need to immerse yourself in a career, volunteer, home life or family at all. Maybe that’s one of the reasons why CPS has been in your life.

Yikes! Anyone remember Thumper’s mother’s advice?

“If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.”

🙂

Maybe TJR is Christi’s husband or something.

Assumptions assumptions. I don’t have a husband 🙂

In the midst of all of this sometimes juvenile-toned discussion this thread has taken on, Betsy Maloney reminds me of exactly what this blog is all about–fear based on no basis in reality, and parents being punished for merely being imperfect.

If I hadn’t been keeping up with things of this nature lately, and then found out some of what is going on these days that passes for a society, I would go “what in the hell happened” myself. It is BEYOND ridiculous.

Part of it is something that Christi and other teachers have probably alluded to, and I certainly think myself–parents blaming teachers for their child’s misbehavior rather than holding their child accountable for it. 40-50 years ago, if a child got in trouble at school, said child got in trouble at home as well. As John Rosemond (a parenting pundit whom I really like) said in a lecture, if he had gotten in trouble at school, his mother didn’t even want to hear his side of the story at all. No excuses for misbehavior, period.

But yes, now we have ADD this and ADHC that and gifted-this and special-needs that (and I mean no disrespect towards anyone who has struggled with whatever & tried to do what’s right, really I mean no disrespect), and frankly, if you ask me, much of it is all about absolving the child of any accountability for their behavior and putting it off on an adult whom we can punish more strongly. Hence, the parent blames the teacher for their child’s bratty behavior in class, and the school system blames parents for kids being late when maybe it was largely the CHILD’S doing.

And yes, the safety thing, good Lord has it gotten crazy. As George carlin observed way back in 1999, (approximate quote), “adults have taken all the joy out of being a chlid just to save a few lives.” Most certainly, and if you are a parent that lets your child learn by doing, why that’s lazy, you were supposed to protect that child. So the truly negligent child that lets their children play in a room full of rat poison and loaded guns is lumped in as being the same as a parent that lets their children play on a slide without 3 different OSHA-approved helmets covering everything from their head to their ankles.

You are right Betsy, it IS “kinda nuts.”

LRH

I’d like to inject a little more sanity. Here we go.

@TJR:

Thanks for saying that while bit about most people not being able to pick and choose their careers. I gave up arguing with SKL because I can’t find a way to productively argue with somebody whose views (that most employers/most jobs, or even most SALARIED jobs don’t positively view punctuality and penalise for tardiness) are, according to every other source of every type I’ve ever heard from, not moored in reality. Don’t get me wrong, SKL, I’m not accusing you of lying about your job, or some other jobs, not placing value on punctuality – but I am still pretty damn sure that MOST jobs, salaried and waged, require punctuality and, the employee risks a pay dock or firing, or simply being passed over for raises and promotions, if they’re late often. The sort of jobs where lateness is not an issue (or “late” simply does not exist) are either rare, or a fair way down a career chain (where the worker is senior and works independently, rather than as part of a team. When you are a junior or a team member, you need to tow the line in order to be successful.

@ LRH, Cheryl W, others:

Both of you have stated that you feel that at some point, the child must directly be held responsible for their own latenesses to school, and that the parent should not be held legally responsible for this. I will base my counter argument on the following premise:

Primary and secondary education are a basic right that ALL children in your country have, on par with nutrition, shelter, medical care and safety.

Point #1: Cheryl W has stipulated that above ~8 years old, a child should be held responsible for their own tardiness. LRH has been more vague, but seems to be saying that if the child is capable of getting to school on time, s/he should be held responsible for doing so (I’ll approximate this at ~8 too, for simplicity).

The thing is, your children are just that: children. There is a reason that the “age of majority” exists, there is a reason that your children are “minors”, and there is a reason that you are their legal guardians and considered responsible for, and in control of, many of their actions. A large part of this reasoning is that children below the age of 16-18 cannot reasonably or sanely be expected to make good, informed choices about their lives. You are talking about expecting ~8-year-olds to be able to understand why it is important for them to be at school on time – because it affects their grades and their attendance/discipline record, which affects their academic progression, which affects their tertiary education and/or job progression, which will affect them for the rest of their lives. Any child of that age IS NOT CAPABLE of the foresight, general knowledge, life knowledge, wisdom and long-term investment to make a sensible, informed decision about that sort of thing. This is where YOU come in – to use YOUR foresight and knowledge to make INFORMED decisions about your child’s future. THIS IS WHAT A PARENT IS FOR. This is WHY, in most cases, an adult guardian is held legally responsible for the actions of, and ensuring the rights of, children under 16-18.

Point #2: Please see my previous post about “why being late is not as acceptable as people think”. Specifically, points #1 and #2.

It is incredibly difficult to arbitrate at what level of lateness a child can be considered to not be “getting an education” (and hence being denied a basic human right). Somewhere, there needs to exist a line between 1min late once, and not present at school ever. That is why the line exists. Again, refer to my previous post as to why the line being set AT the deadline (when school starts) is the most sane choice. On top of that there is a number of times that lateness is acceptable per semester. This is a line in the sand that needs to exist at a pre-stated point, and respected, or otherwise people would have grounds for their children being late to any extent, up to and including complete absence.

This is why the parents of a child are held legally responsible for ensuring that a child goes to school, on time, daily. The parent must ensure that the child’s rights (basic education) are met, even if the child does not understand this and is resistant. This is due to the fact that the child lacks the mental tools to make a rational decision about their choices, and future implications of their choices (outlined in point #1).

Disclaimer, to fend off strawman arguments: I am talking exclusively about tardiness due to poor time management. Lateness or absence due to emergencies, illnesses, funerals, or unexpected disasters do not fall under this category. I am not advocating that parents be dragged away in handcuffs for tardy children, or any other specific punishment – I am simply stating the reasons why they are held legally responsible. I am not arguing that the rules that exist do no need adjusting – I am pointing out the reasons WHY the rules exist at all.

Thank you for your time.

I have been told that I have to apologize for my last post and to explain who I am. My mother has told me that if I do not do this then I will not be allowed to use technology for the rest of the weekend. Because I don’t like this consequence, I am going to do what my mother says. She is an authority figure and although I may not agree with her, I do what she says because I don’t want a further consequence nor a harsher consequence. The mother didn’t seem to learn this lesson which is why she got arrested. She already had truancy fine her for the lateness (a rule that she knew about) yet she continued to be late. Then she cries poor me to the media. When my school banned sliding on the ice patches in our yard, instead of breaking the rules repetitively or crying to my mommy, I started a petition with my classmates and wrote a persuasive argument to our teachers asking that this rule be reconsidered. We live in a democratic society (if you don’t think that Canada, US, England and Australia are democratic try living in some republic states in Africa) so I worked within the system to make myself heard and had results. I know that asking to slide on ice is not the same as arresting for lateness but what is this mother teaching her children with her actions (being late, going to the media, and other)?

So I apologize for my earlier post. I am not Christi’s husband but a 12 year old middle school student. I laugh at LRH being proud for being able to spell ludicrous correctly thanks to her junior college because most kids in my class can spell it but since when is spelling a sign that you’re smart. As to my earlier post, I should have said this, “Just because you have a high IQ, does not make you smart. Many people with high IQ’s act very stupidly.” Which is exactly what I’ve seen on these comments (and admittedly my own actions).

I joined this debate because I am against lateness. I have a sibling with Down’s and because of that, I would sometimes be late for school. The school was always very accommodating (because my parents worked with the school not against) but it was really embarrassing to me. Kids would tease me about it. My teachers would, at a convenient time, help me catch up and I didn’t like the attention despite how discreet they were about it. It’s not really fair for the other kids (like my friend Melissa who is really smart but gets stuck in History) who really need my teacher’s help. Now that I’m in middle school, I get myself to school and I really resent the kids who come in late because they are infringing on MY time to learn. The teacher has to give up time to help them catch up which means that I don’t get the time with the teacher. The teacher can’t just ignore that kid and say, “well, you were late so too bad, figure out the lesson yourself.” That would be bad teaching. But it isn’t fair to those of us who are on time and wanting to learn.

So there you go, a 12 year old can read between the lines and figure out that sometimes people in authority do what initially looks like an injustice, but when you look into it, find out that there is another side to the story. I really feel bad for this mother’s kids to have a mother that can’t get her act together and be a better parent.

I said, “I wish my kids could be in your classroom.” I do, just that they would be my future kids. I passed that gifted test but chose not to go to a gifted class placement. The kids in there were crazy (I mean really badly behaved) and the others walked around with this self-importance attitude of “I’m gifted so I’m smarter than you so that means I’m right and you’re wrong! I’m better than you!” Kind of like the people on here who claim to have a high IQ. I figure that the real world doesn’t separate people based on giftedness, LD or otherwise, so why should I do that at school. People need to learn how to work with all people, regardless of their abilities or disabilities. Some of those behaviour kids maybe belong in that classroom (keep them away from me and ruining the learning that I want to do) and may learn some social skills. Hope they aren’t late! HA HA!

I doubt several people on here are who they say they are…..
Some of the stories and excuses that pop up are just way too convenient. For instance a certain teacher on here has been posting all hours of the day. Someone called her on it, so she claimed she was on maternity leave. Then someone mentioned maternity leave disrupting the teaching process so suddenly she was on maternity leave for a whole school year – so it wouldn’t disrupt the learning process. Then someone suggested TJR was her husband. She responds she has no husband. So we have a single mother, who is a public school teacher, taking a whole year of maternity leave. Hmmmmmm….. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but it IS a little unusual. She certainly couldn’t prove it either way any more than I could prove who I am. But it does make a good point that we can’t believe the experiences of anyone on here as absolutely factual. We can only hope they are telling the truth, but we need to be our own judges and be careful not to judge others based on what others “supposedly” read or even on what we read ourselves online. It’s a big mask where anyone can claim to be anyone.

We have private school teacher who has also worked in the public school system who is NOT a single mother and who had the luxury to take a full year maternity leave because she and her female partner have put aside enough money to fall back on during the 5 months she is not being paid.

Just a convenient truth.

I’m not saying for sure that she is lying. I’m just saying I’ve been following this thread silently for a few days now and I just notice that it stuck out to me that every time something negative was said she had a very convienent answer, (like I stated in my previous statement). It just seemed a little funny. Honestly, we are online. We can’t see each other. Christi could be a 65 year old man. You and Christi could be the same person trying to increase your arguments by siding with each other even though in reality you are the same person. I’m not claiming any of this is true. I’m just saying it’s completely possible for ANYONE on here. I personally think long maternity leaves are great and I wish our country offered them. I think it’s very important for young babies/children to be with their mothers in the early years. Many studies support this. I myself am lucky to have a loving husband who supports me in being able to be at home full time with our children and home school them. I realize not everyone is so lucky. I just know I used to be a teacher and I know it would not be a “run of the mill” situation to be able to afford to take a years maternity leave as a single mom. Christi may very well have a live in boyfriend. Or she could live with her parents. Or she could have a large trust fund. Or maybe she worked two jobs for a while so she could afford to do this. Or she had a rich husband who is now paying her a large alimony/child support. Who knows? It just seemed a bit convenient. That’s all I said. Not that it was true. 😉

If you look back over my two posts and read them thoroughly, I believe you’ll find that I never said we should trust the Loudoun, VA woman. 🙂

public servents [such as teacher police etc] are supposed to work for the taxpayers who fund the government,not the other way around. too often they feel that the rest of use not only work for them,but unelected ,are ruled by them. yes there are laws and rules and yes they need [most of the time] to be enforced for the common good,but when the public servents feel they don’t need to earn respect but should be given regardless the citizen fight back. it seems to me common courtesy and an attempt to understand each other is an old fashioned idea. bring them back.

@TJR, whether you’re an adult or a child, I don’t care. You’ve said what I’ve wanted to say for over a year. Thanks! And even though I am currently attending my local community college, I’ll overlook your cooment because it clearly got Larry’s goat. 🙂

SKL, “Yes, I am a person who found school very frustrating because it was made up of relatively undereducated people making arbitrary rules for everyone else.”

Exactly. Both my husband and I, and all of our siblings felt the same way. And the experience you had with your daughter was the same I had with mine, December birthday. Had she started when I felt she was ready, we probably would not be homeschooling now. She learned to read that year she was home, and was way ahead by the time she got to school, then she was bored. Yes, one teacher helped her, one did not. I was not encouraged to think that the advanced work would be given each year.

And I have seen how kids who have a disability (even, yes, ADHD) are told to “buckle down, try harder, don’t be lazy” and lots of other comments and how it destroys their confidence in themselves because they are doing their best work. So, they think they are stupid and don’t want to go to school. At a young age. It is so sad. And yes, to a certain point, mom/dad can physically get them out of bed and down the road. But that doesn’t last forever – the motivation has to come from within, and often these kids have that motivation squashed out of them by the people who are supposed to encourage them.

Doo-wee-oooh….

Well T Dawg I would suggest what you think of me is IRRELEVANT to this discussion & I sure don’t care what you think of me OR my opinions. I most assuredly don’t care what a 12 year-old BOY thinks. I don’t waste my time concerning myself with approval from someone who at any time can have his MOMMY revoke his posting privileges.

I’m sure he’s probably off somewhere sucking on a candy pacifier & listening to Justin Bieber tunes on his Fisher Price MP3 player. Maybe in 6 more years he’ll be grown enough to have an opinion that’s relevant. Meanwhile he hasn’t experienced jack snot compared to us ADULTS in here & is in no position to offer us any useful advice & he would be well advised to stick to matters on which he is qualified to address. I’m sure there are some Veggie Tales sites his MOMMY would let him post in.

LRH

Beat by a kid, oh please. I could flick you like a bugger. Now go play with kids your own age.

LRH

By all means Anonymous. Personally, my thing is, if you have something to share that’s pertinent to the conversation, cite it if you have it. If you remember seeing it but can’t recall the specifics, I would say it’s okay to bring it up in that context, but to know where it is & not share this & tell someone “you know how to look it up,” sorry, that doesn’t count.

LRH

I think this thread is becoming a study in made-up online personalities.

For the record, my real name isn’t SKL either . . . .

Speaking of which, where is our usual resident troll these days? I go offline for a few weeks while moving and she disappears.

Just a funny. I was looking back at something I wrote the other day (I know, get a life). I mentioned sarcastically that I should probably buy an enema kit so my 5yo, who is very slow in the bathroom, doesn’t hold up the learning process every time she does #2 at school.

Well, the other day she came home with an extra page in the “homework” part of her KG folder. (I know it’s extra because her sister, who is in the same class, brought the same paper home in the “keep” part of her folder.) I asked her why she had more homework than her sister. She said it was because she’d had to go #2 while the class was working on that paper, so she had to bring it home for homework, LOL.

No child left behind indeed.

I think she is who she says she is. She also enjoys stirring things up and writes things that she knows will do so. Whether she truly believes them or not, who knows. For the sake of society, I hope she doesn’t but I know a few who think that way so…

By the way, how did you get them to take your younger kid into kindergarten early? I need to start dealing with the school over the complete lack of challenging work being given to my child. I gave it a few weeks to see if they’d adjust but she is way ahead of the work I see coming home. They tested her at a 1st grade reading level but don’t seem to be giving her work at that level (so what was the point of the test?). Nobody else in her kindergarten half of the class can even read according to her. First grade is in the same freakin classroom so you wouldn’t think this wouldn’t be an issue but apparently it is. I’m fine with them leaving her in kindergarten if they can give her more advanced work since doing half a year in kindergarten and half a year in first grade would probably lead to things being missed. I wish they went by the usual school year for this part of the world so we would have gotten here during summer break and she could have jumped in at the beginning of 1st grade next month.

Correction… http://msafire.diaryland.com/

Turns out Loudoun is a county, not a town.

Guess it did exist.

Know this is off the original topic, but Donna, you echo the frustration of so many parents, and I don’t have an answer for you, which is embarassing as I’m a teacher! There’s no earthly reason I can think of, providing the school actually has books at each grade level (which I hope American Samoan schools do), that the teacher can’t be providing books at your daughter’s level. All she would need to do is to test to determine what that level is (and I know tests aren’t 100% accurate, but they give a reasonable indication, or at least a starting point) and then take the results to the book room and pick books at that level. Not exactly rocket science. She might be the only kid at that level in the class, but so what? I have had years where I’ve had 6 or 7 reading groups because the disparity between young readers is too wide to group them all together.

Doesn’t just go for reading etc. I feel constantly frustrated down here because I keep hearing about kids (also meeting some of them) getting held up in maths etc because they are ready in primary school to tackle high school maths, and they can’t possibly do that because then the high school won’t know what to do with them. Oh, I don’t know, maybe let them take ‘varsity stuff’? Just madness……or laziness.

Good luck with getting something done.

TJR, am starting a gifted and talented group at the primary school I work with this year and wish you could join it – you sound inspirational!

@Donna -another reason they may not be giving work at your daughter’s reading level is that she may test for her decoding skills to be at grade one but that her comprehension skills may be a tad bit lower so she may need some extra instruction (or books at a lower level) to help fill that gap. I’ve found many kids who were pushed ahead because their strong decoding skills were later to be far behind with comprehension, inferencing, and analytical skills down the road. Strong decoders often appear on top of things when they’re young but because they didn’t have to `work for it’ they sometimes miss some skills that help them with more complex texts. I tend not to worry too much if decoding is a little behind because sometimes those kids have really strong comprehension skills which are harder to learn and harder to accommodate for. Maybe ask the teacher if that’s the case?

Maybe let your daughter know that even though it looks like some kids can’t read, they may be learning information in a different manner. My son is a reluctant reader and it was hard to get him to look at a book (and he’s always been behind with his reading level). We never pushed him and hoped that it would come around later. I figure that forcing him to read would not give him a love of reading. He put me in my place this summer when we went to the summer reading club at the library and he hadn’t read his books. He told the librarian that he couldn’t tell her about the books he borrowed as he didn’t read them. That surprised me as I saw him with the book that morning. He claimed that he wasn’t reading but looking at the pictures. The librarian then asked him what the pictures were about and he gave a long and detailed summary of the water transportation system. Through pictures (not the captions) he was able to infer the meaning of the text which is also a very useful reading strategy. Good news, he tested above grade level this year for reading so it has come together for him but we still can’t get him to read! My husband and I are huge bookworms so it’s hard to see but so far our patience is paying off.

Donna-

Did the school give you a “Lexile” or DRA level? (If you don’t know one, ask your daughter if they have her look for a certain “letter” or “number” when she chooses a book… teacher often don’t use the terms with kids and parents).

If you have one of those numbers or letters there are certain relatively simple steps you can take to administer a home version of the test and see if there is a decoding/comprehension gap to rule that out first. I’ve also seen kids with really strong aural comprehension and high decoding who get so caught up in the puzzle of the letters that the meaning of the text passes by.

Would an online charter school be a possibility for your daughter, Donna? I don’t have any personal experience, but I’v heard from a few friends who use them that they test your child and put them at the exact level they need to be in each subject and that they can move through as fast or slow as they need to. I’m not sure your situation during day or your work schedule, but I know of a couple of working parents, who with the help of sitters and doing projects/hands on lessons in the evenings and on weekends still make it work and their children blossom. Just something to consider. I hope you can work it out. It’s a shame all kids can’t get the individualized learning opportunities in our schools that they need. It’s not the teacher’s fault. It’s just the way the system is set up. 🙁

Thank you Rebecca for recognizing that despite one’s age, that they can be worthy contributors. LRH, since you’re `old’, perhaps many people here will decide that your ideas are outdated and thus irrelevant to the conversation. If we’re going to filter people out based on age, then why not filter you out for immaturity? I have a lot learned from my adults, particularly the ones I respect, which is why I took responsibility for my words and apologized, something that you have yet to do. Who deserves respect now? I follow this blog because I do find the comments interesting and I have learned a lot from the posters. Some people have even changed my mind. Just because I do not share the same opinion as you, does not make me an unworthy adversary. In fact, despite differing views, I often respect my opponents more so than those who sit back and blindly accept information. I listened to what you had to say and disagreed. My views are valid as a student who has been late for school and as a student whose learning is impacted by those in my class who are late. I also did some research (something you are unwilling to do) to find out a little more before I made a judgement. I would think of that as being responsible for one’s learning. Would you rather me go back to watch You Tube videos of surprised cats? I would think that as an adult and parent, you’d rather see a child participating in an intellectually stimulating discussion than mindless tube viewing. Telling me to go play with kids my own age? Really? Maturity at it’s finest…

Hineata – Don’t even get me started on math. It’s no wonder the (for lack of a better way to say it) “white world” is falling way behind in math. Teachers seem afraid to teach it.

Books are an issue in American Samoa. There has only been written language for less than 100 years and it was written by missionaries not Samoans. Books are not part of the Samoan culture at all and their access extremely limited on the island. Her school, a private “Americanized” school, does a good job of acquiring them through donations and Amazon but it is certainly not what we could get at home. They also get ruined fairly quickly in the heat and humidity. I said I’d never do it but I’ve ordered a Kindle. Her teacher is pushing for the school to get some for each grade too.

Books, however, are not the problem. The school definitely has some at her level. It is her very sweet, but unwilling to think outside the box teacher who doesn’t really seem to be as able to teach to many different level kids as her previous one. Or maybe it’s just that there are really only two levels – my daughter and all the other kids – (as opposed to her other school which had several kids at each different ability level) so the teacher doesn’t want to make special lessons for one child. It is particularly frustrating because the classroom is kindergarten and 1st grade combined so there is learning going on at my child’s level IN THE EXACT SAME CLASSROOM that my child can’t join in because she’s not in 1st grade (and I don’t want her bumped up to 1st grade because she would have missed half of it now). But that is back to the not being able to think outside the box thing.

@ Elizabeth – I have absolutely, positively no desire whatsoever to homeschool so we are going to have to work within what we have. I do work with her some on my own but we will never be a homeschooling family.

Well the teacher (school system) here said that the woman was to be arrested so we can apply your reasoning of;, “I don’t care if she tells you to stand on your head and sing “O Christmas Tree” backwards, you better darn well do it. Period. No excuses.”

Jenn No, not at all. That’s different. Teacher to parent is adult to adult. Teacher to child is adult to child. Adult = adult, but adult > child. The child is to be subject to the teacher’s authority not only because they’re the teacher, but also because they are an adult, and thus OVER them. That dynamic does not exist teacher to parent. They’re to be EQUALS in the child’s eyes in terms of that whatever the teacher tells the child to do at school, they will be in as much trouble upon returning home as if they had disobeyed their very parents.

Larry, let me remind you of something you seem to have overlooked about the original posting.

The pecking order of the legal system is this:
Law>citizen.
The woman in the article broke the law, and her arrest was a consequence of such.

I can understand that you are teaching your children to respect authority, but it seems that you fail to understand that adults have authority that they must respect, too. That authority is the law and the people who uphold it.

Larry, I would like to add to T-Dawg’s commemt:
BAM!

Larry,

You may believe the way you do about kids being below you and knowing their place, but many of us here don’t and don’t appreciate you speaking to a child who has joined the fold, and is actually for the most part being respectful, in the manner in which you have simply because she is a child. This has nothing to do with free range but does have to do with the pleasantness of the blog.

You raise your children in a far different fashion than me and many others here do. That’s your perogative and I’ll leave you to it. You can talk to your children in your own life any way you want. You can disregard any opinion on here that you choose for whatever reason you choose. But I certainly hope that disrespectful, condescending, insulting and dismissive behavior towards children for no reason other than they are children is not considered acceptable on this blog.

Personally, I’m skeptical that TJB is who she says she is but whatever. Whether it’s a child or an adult pretending to be a child, I’d like to see children treated with respect here. We can learn things from kids if we open our minds and listen. I don’t expect you to ever do that but some of the rest of us might want to. If you can’t talk to young people on the blog in anything other than a condescending and dismissive fashion, just don’t engage them in a dialogue.

By the way, “she started it” shouldn’t be in your vocabulary as an adult. If you’re going to act like a kid, TJB as a right to take you on as one.

I don’t think many people on here believe TJR is a child, but there isn’t a way to prove it either way. Both TJR and LRH said things that were disrespectful of others. Both were in the wrong. However, in LRH’s defense, I do believe kids should show a certain amount of respect towards adults. I think most helicopter parents I know tend to have the philosophy that we should baby kids to the point that we allow them to have tantrums and talk to whomever, however they please so that they are not “inhibited”. They coddle and allow them to say what they want, when they want. However, in my experience most free range parents insist their kids show respect for adults as was common in previous generations. It only makes sense because if they don’t show respect, there’s going to be trouble as they are out roaming the neighborhoods. I came across an image today one of my friends posted on facebook that sums it up pretty good. It won’t let me post the image here, but here’s the link to it:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/384029_336004159762377_205344452828349_1258945_1057176552_n.jpg

I personally think it’s good that kids are respectful. Adults should also be respectful – unless the kid gets out of line, and then the child should be corrected. If you go back and read TJR’s first post on this issue, you will find that she was speaking in what I consider to be a disrespectful way for a 12 year old to speak to a group of adults. (calling people “idiots”) Then a few more comments down she REALLY starts being disrespectful before anyone here has said anything back to her. Back in the “free range” days if a kid smart mouthed an adult they would have their mouth washed out with soap. Nowadays if a kid smart mouths an adult, not only are we not supposed to do anything, but we are to smile sweetly and pat them on the head and brush it off as “just being a child.” And then we should actually applaud them for having their own thoughts and expressing them so eloquently? sigh……. Seems a bit like coddling to me and a good way to be raising a very rude generation of selfish people who put “me” first. I don’t condone everything LRH said and I realize there are some folks on here who don’t like his opinions, but, in my opinion, if this really is a child, then, yeah – she should be in her place. Maybe even (gasp) get yelled at by the adult she offended. And I really hope more free rangers believe this, or I fear for this coming generation….

I’ve read every one of TJR’s posts and he/she never calls anyone an idiot. Some swearing was involved but other from that one incident, I would say TJR spoke very respectfully and with restraint after numerous attempts by LRH to insult him/her. TJR came back and apologized, something LRH has not expressed in anyway, but continues to insult. The website is called, “Free Range Kids” so perhaps TJR assumed that there would be other kids on here too and insulted someone perceived to be acting at a similar maturity level.

PS Like the link. I posted a similar comic a couple of months ago (during report card time).

PS, Jenn I guess you didn’t read the part about “what two-bit junior college did you go to.” I think most of us understand TJR was out-of-line with that, but again they’ve apologized and it’s done and over with. My insults were meant to put them in their place as a child, but again I owned up that MAYBE that was wrong, and I think we’ve moved on from all that, if not, I would say I think it’s time we did so.

LRH

“I owned up that MAYBE that was wrong”

If you admit that you were wrong, I think you should apologise. If you don’t think you were wrong, then don’t. This “maybe I’m sorry, maybe I’m not” is really getting on my nerves.

Larry, I think you would benefit from an article called “Argumentation in a Culture of Discord” by Frank L. Cioffi.
Here’s a link to the article, so you can’t get after for me for not citing sources to your liking.

http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/paleopsych/2005-May/003240.html

I agree with David. I also feel that certain of TJR’s comments were inappropriate regardles if his/her age. If one wants one’s opinion to be heard, one states it in a manner that people on both sides of the issue will be open to hearing. That said, TJR is not the only person here who fails to do that at times.

Jenn, I’m surprised that you consider TJR’s comments to be respectful. Perhaps it’s because s/he agrees with you on this particular issue. After all, his first post started with “Well said Jenn. Wish my kids could be in your classroom. … Don’t let these idiots get you, because you are one of the only sane voices I have heard here.” Obviously anything he said after that must have been correct. (“Can you read?” / [paraphrasing]: you are a piece of work / you come off as uneducated, ignorant / your brain is up your ass / etc, etc. . . .])

I did start to believe s/he might be a kid once s/he started saying “would you rather I go back to watching YouTube?” Like it’s any skin off our rear if someone we don’t know decides to do something that might not be good for him/her. So who knows, and who cares? Far as I’m concerned TJR is a troll, but Jenn, I was starting to think you had some credibility.

@SKL and David, I am changing my mind. Kids, even internet kids who may or may not be actual kids, shouldn’t say mean things to adults, regardless of whether they’re really funny and I agree with them. Thank you for using logic and a reasonable tone to get your point across.

Also, I wish I had an alter-ego.

jenn if you think that example is always the best wayto teach children do you folow it 24/7? after all you are a teacher and a parent,that makes you a role model. so i assume you never, anywhere or any time, drink, smoke gossip, bad mouth, talk or text while driving, obey all traffic laws and speed limits to the letter, follow all dress codes to the max with out complaint[and if your school has a uniform do you wear one?], keep your weight with in healthy government guideline, get exercise everyday etc? if you’re that perfect throw stones at others at will, but if you’re not why not try SOME tolerance and understanding of others’ view points. no body is perfect, we all make mistakes[except maybe you] and we learn from them[i hope]

Jenn, I don’t agree that we have to act the way we want our kids to act if they are to grow up well. Rather, I attempt to act like the adults I hope my kids grow up into. For example, I have enough maturity and experience to know how to question a teacher’s actions / words / plans without appearing to question her value, dignity, or authority over my kids during school. My kids are not ready for that yet, but someday they will be, and at that time they will have my model to guide them (up to a point).

Kids are very capable of understanding “do as I say, not as I do.” That is, assuming the adult follows basic principles that most humans agree on. For example, I was spanked occasionally as a child, but I never had any trouble understanding that I was not allowed to strike any person or animal (except if I was officially in the role of disciplinarian myself). My kids also have no problem understanding child/adult boundaries. It’s the way things have been from time immemorial; even in the animal kingdom. It’s instinctive and logical.

I did not say anything about the volume of TJR’s rude comments (admittedly David and I were not as meticulous as Sera at picking out every one), but his/her entire tone is not something to be proud of in my opinion. You are free to disagree, but something tells me that if s/he were attacking you in that tone instead of supporting you, you would not be so impressed. It really does call into question your objectivity.

Never said I was perfect; I’ve been called on the carpet myself a couple of times here, for comments that were taken differently from what I intended. Bottom line, we’re all entitled to our opinions, but if we are nasty about it, we should expect to be told off.

Just to make your search easier, here are a few comments made AFTER the apology, when you claim she stopped being disrespectful.

“You’re just sore that you got bested by a kid and other people have recognized it. You call me a child (which I am!) and comment on how juvenile I am but yet you use the argument of “it’s a free country”. I mean six year old use that argument!!! Using that phrase in your argument makes you sound even more unintelligent. ”

” Telling me to go play with kids my own age? Really? Maturity at it’s finest…”

“As for Mommy revoking my privileges, that’s what good parenting is. Something you obviously know nothing about.”

“No wonder you’re so out of touch with society that you haven’t had the rich experiences that I (and most of my cohorts) have had. And I don’t need to list them because unlike you, I don’t have to yammer on about how `superior` I am because I have pre-schoolers that are accelerated, etc, etc, etc,. Sucks to be beat by a kid, doesn’t it?”

Again, what we are looking at and discussing here at the moment is whether or not it is acceptable for a child to speak to and adult in such a manner. Not whether some adults on here have been equally rude – they certainly have.

This is a warning to you, and I mean it in all sincerity:

Watch your back.

I have seen schools misuse the legal system to harass people whom they want to force out of a public school. I saw it several times across the river from you in Montgomery County.

In the elementary school that my daughters were zoned for, I saw the school invent problems to report either to law enforcement or Child Protective Services (which, basically, is another form of law enforcement) to scare parents into pulling their kids out of the school.

I saw this happen in two ways: either a fake accusation of child abuse against the parents, or a fake accusation of sexual misconduct against the child.

This tactic is effective despite the accusations being false and ridiculous, and I suspect that this is the real story behind a lot of the “school accuses little kid of sexual battery for game of tag” type stories that you see in the news every now and then.

In the cases I saw, the school mainly used these tactics to get rid of some of the few poor minority kids that were zoned for the school (while well-connected white families that were zoned for the “black” school were allowed to attend with no problem). I also saw them use it against a “tom boy” (a girl who looked and acted like a boy). Then, when I complained about a teacher misusing some school regulations to cheat on her class’ test scores, they used it on me too.

It worked every single time. Plus it keeps their test scores high, and the school environment more “comfortable” for the people left there.

Being late a couple of times in a full school year because someone was sick or you got a flat tire or the cat got out or Junior slipped and needed a Band-Aid are not the issue. The issue is a person got her children to school (or the children got themselves to school) late enough times in a short period of time that an authority figure spoke to them about correcting it and they did not correct it.

No one is going to arrest you for getting your kids late to school three times over the course of nine months because extenuating circumstances popped up. No one is even suggesting that. Most of the people here are in agreement that the mother in this particular case should not have been arrested either.

This story has finally surfaced in the press with some factual details about the circumstances of the case:

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/waterford_parents_go_to_court_for_kids_constant_tardiness123/

I don’t know if this is the same family or not. We do know that the law has been applied like this at least once before. Is this the beginning of a trend? The comments here and at the Loudon Times shows the pettiness is widespread. My reading of the mob is that there are plenty happy to sharpen pitchforks and make the trend their friend.

85 tardies for three children totaling 3 hours is LESS than one absence for ONE child the entire year. The reading comprehension displayed, at least over at Loudon Times, makes me guess most that complain are a product of public school.

The reality is that zero tolerance in schools teaches children that the law is something to be feared, not RESPECTED. It is a good life lesson, I suppose, since in many ways it is no longer deserving of respect.

Yup, public schools as an institution are in trouble. This pushes me further away from public schooling for my son. He is only 7 weeks old, so there is still time for the trend to reverse. But I’ll be making other plans. We want to avoid anyone that sees these SUCCESSFUL parents and sees the glass one two hundredths empty.

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/01/20121318318540671.html
The US has the highest prison population in the world.
How can anyone justify this as criminal behavior?
Unless the father is abusive and created these disorders, I don’t see how it is justifiable to clog the court system with this nonsense.
All the parents doing whatever it takes to get their kids to school deserve awards and the critics need a lesson in humanity.

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook and I thought I would share it here. This is an article for LRH on why I feel that just because you are old, you don’t deserve respect. I think this author makes a very valid point as to why this has been a carryover from generations past and how it just doesn’t apply to society today.

http://www.thestar.com/living/article/1125971–do-the-elderly-deserve-respect-for-being-old-gallinger

Why is this an outrage? This disrespectful self-entitled breeder is disrupting the schools with her tardiness. Millions of parents get their kids to school on time- why is she special?

Instead she is teaching her children disrespect and contempt for others. Of course, that’s the modus operandi of the modern parent- the world owes them something for breeding.

She deserved to be held accountable, and thankfully, she was convicted today.

Shame on this mommy blog for defending her.

Great idea, Amy. Let’s close all the schools to the breeders, and then no one will ever disrupt class again. Problem solved.

@Lovelyone, Your comment was a breath of fresh air. I think we should all avoid Virginia when we can, although I do like Richmond.

I feel bad for this parent. At least it is a fine, and not jail. (Does the money go to the courts or the school? Hmm)

Loudoun County schools need to be privatized so they can become accountable to the families. Student to teacher ratio is 18 students to 1 teacher. Cost per pupil is $14,883. Total per teacher cost is $267,894 per year. The teachers only get about $70,000 of that. I bet the school is only paid for on time students, and hence the enforcement. Anyone want to guess if Virginia Tech ever had one of their students arrested for tardiness? Or did Middleburg Academy (a Loudoun private school) ever have a parent arrested for tardiness?

http://www.loudountaxpayer.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5:what-loudoun-really-spends-on-public-schools-&catid=3:loudoun&Itemid=4

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Loudoun-County-Public-Schools-Salaries-E144195.htm

All that and they only rate 7 out of 10 http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/ashburn/Loudoun-County-Public-Schools/

Private schools do look more expensive than public in Loudoun County. But the student to teacher ratio is 8 to 1. Even doubling that ratio is better than public schools. (Thus lowering per pupil cost somewhat) http://www.privateschoolreview.com/school_ov/school_id/28324

Thank you all for the healthy discourse, no matter which side or perspective you take on this issue, I do however want to thank all those who

1. Understood the real issue at hand is the question of whether being late should be criminal behavior worthy of a criminal charge ( regardless of your response to that question) OR;

2. Raised discussion of disabilities. Although that topic is really not gemaine to the question of legality of criminalizing lateness, many have been very expressive, supportive, understanding and took time effort and thought to discuss the topic of ADHD in particular and disabled functioning in general which I appreciate.

What surprised me most in the reading of the responses to my situation was the plethora of discussion regarding disabilities. That tells me we have a huge need to address that and this forum met that need even if that was not the central topic raised.

And although ancillary to the question of criminalization ( I mean my perspective is that WHY one is late is irrelevant and shouldn’t even factor into the question of being late being a misdemenor or not); I did appreciate the conversation of whether and how a school district should (or should not) made what are equivalent to accommodations to those arriving late who are impacted by a disability.

I appreciate the perspective that there are some crimes that one is automatically guilty of just by virtue of facts of either doing something or failing to do something and that there are no excuses to be heard which could change that.
In this case the question is whether or not the act of being late falls within the specific statutory language as it was carefully drafted by legislators who believe me choose their words carefully. The VA General Assembly in fact has in the past debated the issue of whether the statutory language should be amended to include lateness and chose not to do so-which is further evidence that they thoughtfully and carefully crafted language which DID NOT include lateness in the part of the statute I was charged and in fact CONVICTED under.

I WAS FOUND GUILTY by Judge Pam Brooks of the Loudoun Juvenile and Domestic Court of failure to have my children in school the required hours per day which “offends the dignity of the Commonwealth of Virginia”.

I was fined $1000 per child which Pam Brooks indicated she would waive , (and she was VERY CLEAR about this), If my children ARE ON TIME ALL THE TIME, and we ARE NOT late between now and a return to court next Fall.

Unfortunately the girls were late the very next day,
My friend who has started to drive them came back from the run and walked in and said “I failed you.”

I said “YOU DID NOT FAIL ME and in fact if they are late today that means that some intervening factor contributed to them being late despite your wonderful assistance to us all today. Any consequences are not due to you in any way but are mine only and have nothing to do with this one day and in no way are you to feel at all bad or responsible in any way about how some third party that really has nothing to do with you, me or this moment decides to arbitrarily judge it.”

That is the SAME EXACT Thing I told the wonderful 19 year old driver I hired who didn’t show up one morning due to some intervening event.

STUFF HAPPENS

She did have the consequence of not being my driver further. A small part time job for her was lost.

This recent lateness was due to an 18 Wheeler that just happened to be blocking the road in front of Browning Equipment in Purcellville, on the narrow side street where he was apparently unloading a delivery of some equipment (tractors I think).

I think my friend was surprised that I LAUGHED and said ” THat is OK I am GLAD you are late as now I have NO STRESS and don’t have to worry about the gun to my head as the trigger was already pulled.”

WHEW! One less stressor ! So glad to have that one checked off the list. I mean when I heard her say IF NEVER LATE AGAIN I did control myself and not laugh in the court, but KNEW that is just NOT POSSIBLE.

Regardless…

THANK YOU to Lovelyone in particular for sharing your success.

I am really proud to be an outstanding Mom. I KNOW that to be true. I am really proud to have been an outstanding manager of a group home at PEOPLE INC in Williamsville,NY for five years where I managed a staff of 25 and 11 disabled adults and assisted in navigation and facilitation and mentoring at the helm of a tight ship where all DID run on time like clockwork. I am really proud that 18 years ago in that position I taught my first Time Management Training class for my staff which was so well received that I then was asked to present it at additional sites in the company. I am really proud that in the Fortune 100 company where I work in the legal department with my JD that I was asked to present a Time Management “Lunch and Learn” Session for a Professional Development Series for the Success of Disabled Professionals. The target audience is anyone who is challenged by a disability in their professional work either of them-self or others they work with. Think about it-whether talked about or not, thAt is likely ALL OF US.

I am really proud that even though I have a JD and it may be hard to receive BAR Certification — I AM PROUD at my tenacious persistence and dedication and unyielding belief in myself and my talents and abilities that YES I AM PROUD I failed the BAR exam in VA four times . Proud because I did not give up after one or two attempts. Proud to know that like Hershey who had six failed companys before his successful seventh we all heard of-that I KNEW someday I would succeed in a big way and there is no worry in how long it takes to get there, and no fear in the opportunities for growth along the way.

Every challenge can be looked at as either a failure and a roadblock or as a stepping stone and a building block.

I am really proud that I am happy to embrace yet another opportunity to learn more about VA procedure which I have been challenged by in attempting to learn from a lecture or a book. I am a kinetic hands on learner.

I have no shame in being late.
I have no fear or insecurity in not being perfect.
I am one with literally nothing to lose in making my best effort to be as strong of an advocate for a cause I believe in and one who has no fear of the long haul and persistent ethical sparring that affecting change often requires.

I am never happier than when engaged in a healthy debate which may make the world a better place.

So armed with my JD, as a former Moot Court Board member of my Alma Mater SUNY at Buffalo School of Law where I won the International Law Jessup Moot Court competition as a single mom then raising two kids; a former intern of the Board of Immigration Appeals where I was thrilled to work as I complete my last 12 credits at Georgetown Law, and a current member of an in house counsel transaction team in the corporate enterprise world as a contract manager ( where I incidentally am often the first in my group into the office)- I have no question that there is little need for anyone to either feel sorry for me, judge me as not capable as a parent ( Some dared to suggest I was selfish to have children on some forums!), or in fact even worry one moment about me.

It is in fact MY CHILDREN whom people rightfully should have concern for.

Yet trust me from experience that it is not lateness which will have a harmful impact! My oldest was late 52 TIMES in 2nd grade! WHOO HOO “I have come a long way baby!” as my current 2nd grader was only late 13 times this year! How has my oldest fared? One full scholarship offer from Allegheny College in PA, and a second almost full Trustee Scholarship she accepted to the college she attends (unnamed for her privacy-but it was for a time the most expensive private liberal arts college with more than a few renowned famous graduates). So the lateness really did not negatively impacted her education and success. She also is a first violinist in the orchestra in the community her college is in.

Nor did lateness on my account negatively impact my son who at 15 was the youngest member ever of a professional theater company he is a member of. Since then he has preformed with two other professional companys and is not merely working toward the goal of being a professional actor, at age 16 HE IS a professional actor. He has preformed in over 40 productions, received accolades for a short film he directed, worked as a columnist for a newspaper, and in one the the things I am most proud of-May be the voice singing “Heads, Shoulders, Knees and Toes” on your infant toy, or the voice reading your toddler a story he is listening to on “Reading Rainbow”. My son is blessed to have recently been encouraged and received a mentor in a famous actor he was thrilled responded to his e-mail who wrote “You are poised to be an example of success and excellence in a flawed system… It can be a long and lonely road but the rewards are real and great. Stay the course, young one.”

It is in fact OUR SCHOOLS and OUR LEGAL SYSTEM that people rightfully should have concern and worry over. I hope that the concern is strong enough to actually instill HEALTHY FEAR and HEALTHY ANGER where due. For in fact we clearly have two VERY FLAWED SYSTEMS.

I am ready for the appeal of the decision and look forward to the DE NOVO Case before Loudoun Circuit Court.

I went to law school with the dream of using gifts I felt I uniquely have to help others. I felt not only could I be a good lawyer, but as one professor who wrote a recommendation letter expressed, may have the potential to make unique outstanding contributions in whatever field I choose to pursue.

I have never once questioned that belief in me. I never once questioned that I would be successful.

Some of us just take a little longer to get there.

When that happens, one has to just persevere and continue to do the best one can. So I am pleased there is a national debate which has been sparked about issues that we have a need to discuss as there is clearly a flawed system in need of tweaking. Someone has to be the one to call attention to the Elephant in the Room despite the fact it is rather common that the initial reaction is to attack the messenger of an uncomfortable message that calls for questioning the status quo and calls for change. Change requires growth and growth is always painful.

I am willing to grow- in fact can’t imagine NOT embracing every opportunity to do so. Improving my limitations and learning all I can to be more successful at being on time is the wonderful opportunity I am offered at this stepping stone.

Learning all I can about VA procedure as I naviage the process as a defendant, will perhaps help me prepare for the next BAR Exam I sit for. As a kinetic learer perhaps this hands on experience is the last piece I need to get the big picture of the legal puzzle of the BAR EXAM which I have been shy of completing.

It rather invigorating to me to have this motivation and opportunity for the learning of such an inteactive environment as REAL LIFE and a REAL Case as I work toward the actualization of my dreams of working as a lawyer to help others. Furthermore this is an opportunity to make an impactful difference as the case I will argue before Loudoun Circuit will be a precedent setting one as the courts have not yet addressed the questions that the Virginia General Assembly has been discussing. Although Judge Pam Brooks articulated “Court do not set policy” I beg to differ as if the legislature has not yet addressed an issue and the issue is raised in a court of record who will have a precedent setting decision- that court in fact WILL SET POLICY. I am therefore PROUD to embrace this opportunity which I now have to argue before a judge who shall make a precedent setting decision that will shape Virginia policy on the issue of whether being tardy to school will be considered the equivalent of being absent to school in the state of Virginia.

So as for me, even if late I know it is still the right choice to show up and do the best I can. Even if it takes longer and even if there are diversions and I get lost along the way. I know that my contributions will be valuable when I finally arrive.

It can be a long and lonely road but the rewards are real and great.

Stay the course.

Thanks for posting this. I have a similar, though different, problem. My daughter’s school sent us to the truant board and we got a letter from the DA, demanding we meet at a specific time or risk punishment. On average my daughter is late to school by 1-3 minutes, if that. Normally we are on time. However, I have an older child with many serious mental issues (OCD, anxiety, bipolar, Tourette’s syndrome) which delays us much of the time. He often refuses to get dressed of begins a project at the last minute. Any ideas on how to deal with my daughter’s school? My son is homeschooled through a charter school since his disability made normal school impossible (he’d spend his days in the office, teachers threatened him, etc.)

My daughter is 9 and a wonderful student! I’m, frankly, disgusted by the school’s approach.

I would say that you may want to contact some kind of Americans With Disabliities group, the ACLU, the press or all of the above. Think about your situation:

All American children, by constitutional and court right, have the inalienable right to a publicly funded education. This right is irrespective of any physical, mental or emotional disability. It is also one heckuva liability threat to most Public School districts.

In this case your situation looks to me like this: you have one child who is disabled and because of the school district’s stance toward you, you have been forced to remove him from the public school and enroll him through your own effort in a charter “school” where YOU, an untrained and nonprofessional person, are attempting to educate at home a disabled child. A child who could greatly benefit from professional attention (keep in mind that I myself was homeschooled as I mentioned in an earlier quote, so i think homeschooling is excellent, but homeschooling a disabled child is a whole other ball of wax for a lot of reasons! Still do-able but not always optimal). Not only are you attempting to homeschool him but this child is missing out on the benefits of having learning assistance from highly trained professional assistance, and access to educational facilities and their benefits that your own tax dollars pay for. And you are missing out on getting the daily physical and emotional break from dealing with him, which would probably improve your family’s quality of life.

But really here, the point is that he has been denied his constitutional rights due to the school district’s inability or lack of desire to work with you and your child. The Americans With Disabilities Act is paid very close attention to by most school districts, or at least any school district with a lawyer worth his pay who wants to keep the school out of litigation.

Now, they are hassling you and your other child because of what is a very real problem from your first child with disabilities. Honestly, I would contact a lawyer who specializes in cases to do with disability discrimination, and I would contact any organization who works with rights for the disabled. My bet would be that this will be all it takes to get the flexibility you need from the school district.

Furthermore, it would be nice to see if added litigation pressure can make them realize that they have denied your son an education and have discriminated against you and your daughter in the arena of tardies. It may be interesting if some kind of partial tutoring, partial home help or home educational visits or partial school may be available to you. They may find some way of helping you further once they see you are serious and have a lawyer.

You will be surprised at the individualized attention a school district will give to one child when an empowered family is dealing with them. I once worked for a school that had a child with sever physical and some mental disabilities. This child had both a nurse and a classroom aide specifically assigned to them and employed full time to assist their physical and intellectual needs. The school also repurposed an entire closet and refurbished it for use by this child and their nurse so that the nurse could care for this child’s physical needs in privacy with the proper medical equipment. The family did not have to send their child away to a special school. They did not have to homeschool. And their child had the benefit of real help and did not have to be isolated from his peers. He got to interact with healthy and non disabled children every day. This was good for the non disabled children as well. I am sure that this situation is exceptional on a number of levels. But don’t settle for second best for your children, get informed, get empowered, and contact other people in your state who have successfully lobbied for their children.

While you are at it, make sure you have not only been dealing with the school principal. Go directly over their head and speak with the district supervisor. The disctrict supervisor is an elected official, and very conscious of such things as litigation. He can often put pressure on the principal to make this right. You want to think like a chain of command. If this person does not have the power or the interest to make this situation right, the person above him may. Keep going up until you get the right person, if you have to go all the way to your state education board and whoever chairs that. Go to your state legislature’s district representative.

Also, go to your congressman or woman and your senator. These people hold purse strings for funding for the schools in your district and will want to know that it is being handled in a fair manner. They are elected officials and will want to make sure that their constituents are fairly represented in the institutions that are funded by taxpayer dollars.

Also, if this is being dealt with by law enforcement now, due to truant officers being notified, you will want to take this with the Americans With Disabilities Act approach through them as well. Do NOT attend any of these meetings without a lawyer present. A lawyer is expensive, yes, but look how much money the other family from this thread ended up shelling out in court costs etc.

I do not feel that the best approach is a complete adversarial approach. Not every public school all the time has an ulterior motive every time they are doing something. It is also helpful to remember that public schools are usually made up of people who have dedicated their lives to children, and these people are bound by very difficult laws that require them to do certain things. And yes, stupidity can abound. I, as a former public school teacher, have seen it. But public schools when functioning at their best can and have done amazing things

I DO feel that having a lawyer involved as an adviser in all of this and to be a litigation threatening presence will serve you well in dealing with this school district. Depending on what you feel, you may find that keeping a low press presence during this process will be helpful to you for diplomatic reasons. But if they do not work with you, you may want to contact both local AND national news outlets. This is the kind of stuff that makes big news headlines all the time. A disabled child and their family pitted against a local school district that has both denied their child an education and is now trying to criminalize them and their other child for the difficulties they are experiencing with tardies? Puh-leeze! Call Oprah!

If you end up on one of these news outlets you will want to look elegant, poised, the yard mowed, etc. Remember, you are just a decent, middle class family beleaguered by soul less bureaucrats. This is like a scene from the movie “Brazil”. If you do have a dented car, a less attractive home etc, make sure that part of the point is the deep personal setbacks you have had financially in dealing with a child with disabilities. And this school district has only contributed to your problems with this. You do not want to appear to have a paycheck in mind for any potential litigation. You just want what’s best for your son and daughter.

Keep in mind that school districts are usually more soulless bureaucracies than vicious child harmers. You want to make people in that bureaucratic chain feel keenly enough that their personal well-being (job, reputation etc) are on the line in order to put the pressure on them to do what needs doing correctly. As institutions, there are many rules that the employees have to follow. And there are many loopholes and exceptions to the rules that they are allowed to use should the right situation arise. You are putting pressure on them to go ahead and find the loopholes necessary to make this situation right. So honestly, actually suing the school district or calling Oprah or some such will probably not be necessary. You will probably just need the threat.

I missed this post last year (how? I read everything!).

My sister was threatened with similar action a couple of years ago due to my niece having several tardies. Here’s the great part – my niece rode the school bus. My sister wrote to the school and asked what possible action they suggest she take other than getting my niece to the bus on time every day, which she did. Amazingly, they stopped sending her letters threatening legal action….