Remember the case of Zach Anderson, the young man whose case made national headlines (but you yysebnaezr
read here first) after a Michigan judge sentenced him to 25 years on the Sex Offender Registry? Here’s the latest, from Fox 28 yesterday:
A Niles Judge has agreed to reconsider the sentencing of Elkhart teen Zach Anderson, whose case made national headlines when he was convicted as a sex offender. The judge did not make an immediate decision, but deferred a decision to a later date.
Anderson met a girl on Facebook dating app. He says she told him she was 17. The first time they met, he picked her up and drove to a playground, where they had sex. It turns out she was only 14.
Anderson, who’s 19, wound up serving three months in jail, facing a strict five-year probation, and the next 25 years on Indiana’s sex offender registry. For the next five years, Anderson can’t go online, can’t be around anyone under 17, and has to be home by 8 p.m.
His other restrictions are these, as I wrote in the Downtown Express, after meeting up with his parents last week when they came to New York for a TV talk show:
Three weeks ago, when Zach got out of jail, he could not go home. As a sex offender, he cannot reside with anyone under 17, and that includes his younger brother..The Andersons broke into their savings and bought Zach a small house far from any school or playground (another registry requirement). Each night, he must be home by 8. The police can come at any time to do a search, and already have. What were they looking for?.Movies. Not dirty ones — clean ones. Zach can’t have any G-rated movies like “Home Alone,” on the assumption that watching kids will trigger his urge to rape them..Zach also cannot have a smartphone..“We got him a flip phone and we had to bust the camera with a screwdriver to break it,” said his dad. Zach can’t have any access to the internet, either, which means he has to change his college major: Computer science..And he’s not allowed into a library, skate park, or mall, because there are kids around.
131 Comments
I do hope he gets reprieve. The whole thing is senseless.
On a completely unrelated note, why are the parents of a 19- year-old buying him all these things? Surely there is some sort of work option with the justice system to get him an income for rent.
Wait, he took her on a date to a playground and had sex with her there? Is anyone else confused/disturbed by that?
Could we not hang Free Range Parenting on this guy who, if not a child rapist, has the worst judgement ever?
Adoreandu,
That is what you take from all this. He admitted he found her on a hook up site. The whole idea of these sites is to have quick no strings sex. So no it is not surprising or disturbing.
What is disturbing is that a little tramp lies, causing someone to possibly lose everything and she walks away. That is not right, not in any way, shape or form is that acceptable.
And I don’t think there is a way to legally prosecute the girl. She’s legally the victim. She can make bad adult decisions but because of double standards we are not allowed to call her a tramp. Sigh.
No internet. No smartphone.
Let’s see, before the internet existed, were sex offenders (or any offenders) forbidden to use the mail? Phones? Pen and ink?
Didn’t the girl AND her parents admit to the judge that she LIED to him? So the judge is sort of handing these kinds of convictions out like Pez. Definitely not right, and it ruins the lives of those caught up in something not of their own making. It’s not like he prowled around looking for this girl, so it doesn’t seem like a correct judgement to me.
When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
To restate that, I generally don’t call girls tramps and I understand teens participate in sex. But I do expect teens, like any other sexual person, to conduct sexual behaviors in a mature, responsible, and honest manner. Being 14 is hardly justification.
I would love to get a hand on that pre-sentencing report. Curious to see what the probation had determined.
Hi Lenore,
I agree with you. Equating horny/consensual sex and rape for teens (or early twenties for a typical college student) is disgusting. Actually, it’s normal. And this situation is pathetic. And what about the girl who lied and said she was 17(valid point here)?
Steve
Adoreandu,
No, not really. When I was in HS I made out with a girl at a local park/playground because it was the closest place at the time, and we were walking through it and talking about teenaged BS at 3 am and we were bored. You know, normal teenage philosophical nothings like “What if god was really dog…..” and what not. The location is irrelevant, unless he was at a daycare or elementary school or something- and even then, they have parks/play areas that are open to the public. You might get a tresspassing citation if you are there at night but its not unusual to find neighborhood kids in places like that at all hours.
Emily Morris,
He acted like any other hormonal teenager, and she lied about her age. What was he supposed to do, take a fingerprint and check her ID? *smh*
Emily, what do you mean, “why are the parents of a 19-year-old buying him all these things?”
Have you ever tried to get a job as a sex offender? Neither have I, but my understanding is that it is incredibly hard. You can’t do anything that requires you to be around kids, and even most places that aren’t kid-related won’t hire you if you are a registered sex offender. It’s hard enough to get a job if you have a criminal record, but even worse if you are a “sex offender.”
Plus, his skills are apparently in computer science, and now he’s not allowed to have computers, so can’t maintain those skills, and probably can’t get a job that requires him to work with computers, either.
Just, wow, what a tough spot to be in. All for having normal sex as a teen.
I think we can all be dismayed at the “hook-up” culture that both kids were participating in. I think we can all see, regardless of one’s views of whether or not teenagers should be having sex, that there was really bad judgement on both sides.
However, to put someone on the sex offender registry for 25 years? And put the extreme restrictions on him? That is so wrong on so many levels it should make everyone outraged.
(And, sorry, but I can’t help but think of how that Duggar kid who actually sexually molested girls many years younger than him in no way that could possibly be considered consensual, isn’t on the sexual offenders registry and in fact, many are defending him because he’s asked God for forgiveness, and it was “in the past.” This kid, unless the judgment gets over-turned, will be in the registry for the next 25 years!!!!)
Kid’s framed by an underage girl into having sex with her, and as a result will end up homeless and incapable of ever getting a job.
His training’s in IT, he can’t keep up that training or perform his chosen profession. And as most any job training now (and any job execution) requires the use of computers he can’t retrain into or perform another job either.
I’ve done some thinking about the scenario, because it could hit almost anyone…
What contains computers now and will be off limits to someone like this boy?
– your car
– your microwave
– your television
– your DVD drive
– your smartphone (ok, he’s explicitly disallowed those as well)
– your tablet
– your ebook reader
– the ticket machine at the railroad station or bus station
– the ATM at the bank
– the payment terminal at the supermarket
the list goes on and on. Effectively then he’s not allowed to do almost anything at all, except sit on the couch with an old paper book all day.
He’s not even allowed to get groceries at the corner store because he can’t pay for them (he can’t withdraw money because the ATM is a computer and he can’t use his ATM or credit cards at the store because the payment terminal is a computer also, and of course there may be children in or near the store…).
And we’re all eager to watch those bought-and-paid-for politicians, lying to us on the Presidential debates.
What we have here is a fascist government, that occasionally picks some “lucky winner” out of the population, to remind the rest of us to “know our place.”
I’m sure everyone has an opinion. Of course, 90% of the Baby Boomers commenting (the same ones who made these laws) did the same thing Zach did. It doesn’t bother them much, apparently, to perform human rights violations on random victims to recharge their denial.
If any one of us stands for this without speaking up, we are just as guilty as the Mussolini wannabes who are slinging this crap at us, every day.
Why not do something new for a change? When the the two obsequious little snots who will eff you over appear on that next presidential ballot, why don’t you write in somebody who stands for something. Do you really think you win, if one or the other loses? The same thing goes for all the rigged elections you “vote” in right there in your own city.
Why don’t we just say no? It took years, until somebody did to McCarthy. It’s been even longer, with these witch-hunting Puritans. Miley Cyrus proves I’m right. Sex is for rich people. Guys like Zach can go to jail.
What about the other 2 teen boys/young men this same judge also sent to jail and mandated 25 years as a public Registered Sex Offender? If the judge’s bias against young men who have “online-hook up’s is a reason for Zach Anderson to have a new trial the other young men should too. Whether their families have the financial means or not, the ACLU or some other Legal Aid group needs to step up and challenge those cases too. Zach’s story and what happened with his legal case from the prosecutor, to the plea deal to the judge over sentencing is just ONE example of what is happening to young men all over America and if he gets removed from the Registry the public will think all innocent young men who were lied to by a female claiming and looking old enough aren’t populating 50 states worth of Sex Offender Registries fro 10, 20, 25 years or as most are for life.
I hope Zach’s case is reheard and he does NOT have to register as a Sex Offender for the next 25 years but what about all the other young men who have faced the same consequences and there has been no public outrage?
Whether Zach Anderson is successfully removed or not from the public Registry, these case and the problems with out legislative systems, judicial systems and our desire as citizens to name-and-shame those who have been convicted of a sex crime does not end. Until public outrage is directed at the issues within the system, not just an individual case there will be more Zach Anderson’s whose lives are destroyed in the future.
Zach Anderson isn’t the exception, he’s the standard and that’s where the public outrage should be directed, reforming 50 states worth of sex crime statutes and registries.
It’s really rotten what’s happened to this young man. Even if he changes his major in college, he’ll have to write papers and that requires doing research online. It’s very difficult to find sources for college papers without going online, either on the Internet or through a database. Also, many instructors now require their students to submit papers online through services such as Turnitin or something similar and contribute in online discussions.
But of course, that’s a triviality compared to the rest of the consequences of enforcing Draconian sentences on people (children, really) who make mistakes based on lies told to them by others. I hope he gets a second chance and that the judge does reverse the sentencing.
I have a son, not even a teenager yet, and I worry about these kind of laws and how he’ll be affected by him if someday he makes a similar mistake.
Does his sentence really prohibit him form having a movie with children in it? Why can’t he live with his brother? He was never charged or convicted of anything related to pedophilia. For these reasons and others, the people attempting to destroy his life have violated the public trust, are not serving the public, and desperately need to be removed from their positions.
True, Mary, though try convincing someone of that that ‘lives in Mayberry” as it were and acts/assumes that things like this only happen to other people’s kids, or those that deserve it. I live in a college town and I ride a bike, as I live near by, and I see things on Thurs/Fri/Sat night that would qualify as some jurisdictions as public lewdness, and I can guarantee that some of them are in the age spread to make laws like this applicable. Johnny Quarterback or Janie Volleyball player come back home from college and hit the bars with their girlfriend or boyfriend in tow (stamped as under 21 in NE) and then go ‘wherever’ to continue the festivities. Drinking, drunk, or not, the age difference alone in many of their cases would put them firmly in Zach’s situation in other states. But, here in the Midwest, for now, its ‘kids being kids’ or worse, ‘small town mentality’, in the cases of something bad happening. It always happens somewhere else or there must have been ‘something’ that justifies it. The police/judges couldn’t be WRONG, could they? *fans myself*
TIm- because that is the way he was sentenced. The Judge can issue prohibitions for the public good and the laws are so vague that almost anything can be construed as dangerous to little kids or an inciting effect on Zach. ‘Reason’ doesn’t enter into it, nor facts of the case, either.
Let’s also keep in mind, these convictions play a bigger role for the prosecutor and the judge. These convictions are just more notches on their bedpost. No once cares who got convicted or why, all they care about is the number of convictions they successfully have on paper. Helps with the promotions, and any type of advancements. That’s fact. That’s why you have lawyers defending real scum bags and criminals. They know they are guilty, but because they are getting paid very well, they find ways around the system to get them off.
Truly the justice system is broken. Has been for a very long time. What’s also funny, is that whenever a bad conviction is over turned, people celebrate that the system is actually “working”. lol Never taking into account, there are more wrongful convictions than over turned ones.
I hope this young man gets a reprieve from this unjust law. Unfortunately, there are hundreds if not thousands in his and his families situation. I live in California, and while there are laws that restrict those whose age difference is only three years apart, the age of consent is 18, So if the girl is 17 (but looks 25, and has a fake ID) , and the male is 20/21 he is considered a sex offender. It doesn’t even have to involve sex, a touch (hug/kiss) is considered lewd conduct. Yes, our friends son spent time in prison for this! His life is over.
Our registry is life time. Forever. Most go to prison, not jail. We have over 100,000 on our registry. So, there is no way to know who is possibly a danger because it is saturated, and some pictures may look like it was a dirty old man, but the offense may have been committed 3040 years ago when the old looking man was 19 or 20.
The worst part is our tax dollars are being used to support these laws. No one can even tell us how much this is costing the tax payer, while our education system, infrastructure, water systems, etc. decay.
They can’t find housing (no one will rent to them), they can’t get jobs (no one will hire them), they are shunned by society. It’s become the best way for politicians to get votes, by using them as pawns.
The general public has no idea what is happening, nor do they care if it happens to be someone who committed a sexual offense, but they ought to be concerned because someday it might be their son and their family torn apart over what a few decades ago was considered normal behavior. ( I was just 16 when I met my husband of 21) Today, he would be considered a sex offender. I wonder what would have become of us if we had these laws back then. We have been successful, happily married for well over 40 years with children and grand-children. My grandfather is in a Hall of Fame, yet he married my grandmother while she was just 15, he being 20! People say, “Well that was different back then”. Really? I don’t believe that human behavior changes just because we are in a different century.
Yes, we need to protect the innocent, but let’s do that by ensuring only those that truly are a risk to our safety are prosecuted. This has become the biggest cash cow of our century.
Jill, Well said!
@Warren……but, but, but Warren, that “little tramp” is just a tender little child who was sexually abused by an adult. Since she was a little child who was coerced into sex by an adult (Don’tcha realize that ALL kids under 18 who have sex with an adult are coerced?). So now she is a victim who is now scarred for life and will need years and years and years of therapy and counseling just to enable her to lead a normal life!
Yes, of course I’m being extremely sarcastic. But this seems to be the general assumption by the American legal system. I think there have been cases of 14-year-olds being tried as an adult when they’ve committed murder or assault but yet when it involves sex, we always assume they’re the victims and NEVER hold them responsible for their actions. I sort of fault this mentality to the counseling industry here in the United States that seems to be infatuated with child sexual abuse and Judges always seem to side with counselors.
Now I have not seen a picture of this girl but I think I can reasonably assume that she was well-endowed for being only 14 as many 14-year-old girls are nowadays. Was this the same prudish Judge who originally sentenced him? Obviously a 138,000 signature petition made him reconsider BUT it NEVER should have come down to that. The law needs some major tweaking and kids need to be held responsible for their actions even if it involves sex. It’s not always the adult’s fault!
I had sexual contact with “men” who were more than three years my senior starting at age 16. I went to university when I was 16, but even before I left, I was doing some heavy petting with a 21-year-old uni student.
I found boys my own age rather goofy, truth be told. I wanted emotional connection as well as physical connection… not always possible with teen boys. I never lied about my age, none of the young men I was involved with were concerned about my age, and there was no chance anything was ever going to be reported because my parents knew all about what I was doing. I brought some of these guys home from uni to meet them.
And I did some pretty graphic things with a boyfriend of mine in broad daylight in a cemetery once. How’s that for twisted? To us, it was a beautiful park, on a beautiful day, and trying not to be seen just added to the excitement. I laugh about it now, though.
It is easy to see how terrible the registry is for someone like Zach but let’s not forget the other 850,000 registered citizens. ..and their families! If Zach were 40 years old (or 60 or 25 or ANY age) the restrictions are just as much a burden. If the 40yo Zach had a family, think what life would be like for his kids under those restrictions. They wouldn’t be allowed to live with him and if he were allowed to spend supervised time with them, they couldn’t go to the movie theater or a park and he couldn’t watch their ballgames and dance recitals.
Would the 40yo Zach deserve the registry? Remember, he would have already served his sentence, whether it was probation or prison. If Zach had a neighbor who did time for assault and battery, that guy could move to your neighborhood and you would never, ever know what his crime was. Victims of assault and battery, victims of car theft…why are you not up in arms because the laws treat your injuries as so much less than the “injuries” inflicted by guys who do years in prison for talking dirty online to a cop pretending to be a 14yo girl?
Sex offenders have an exceptionally low rate of reoffense, around or below 5%. Those who committed car theft have a reoffense rate above 75%! Assault and battery? Above 50%. Those numbers are consistent with the reoffense rates before registries.
The registry protects no one. No family deserves to live on the registry.
Occasionally someone on our neighborhood listserv will tout the website (or whatever it is) that will email you if a “sex offender” moves into your radius. Occasionally they will share this info with the whole list. I never replay (because I’m not interested in striking up a debate) but I will say that some people have crafted reasoned replies.
I always want to reply that I’d rather have a list of people who’ve been arrested for drug dealing and/or car break ins.
This punishment certainly seems absurd and punitive.
As far as the parents helping their kid? How else would the kid find a place to live? He couldn’t live in an apt because there must be kids living there, so that’s out. What 19 yo can buy a home on his own?
A few weeks ago, I read an article about a young inmate (late teens) suing the state because was was brutally beaten and raped while in prison for armed robbery. A number of the comments after said that it was all his fault for committing a crime in the first place. Many in American society seem to have this view that you deserve whatever you get if you commit a crime – and the more the better. We seem to have somewhere lost our repulsion for cruel and unusual punishment that was so important to the founding fathers that they put it in the Bill of Rights.
Luckily I have been blessed with two wonderful ladies for daughters. Good heads on their shoulders, and strong principles.
For example, my oldest when she was this age had a friend that got pregnant. Her mom and her chose to keep the child. The mom even held a baby shower for her. My daughter respectfully declined to attend the shower, stating that her attendance would be a form of approval for this behaviour. She slowly distanced herself from her friend, preferring a different group of peers.
Made a Dad very proud.
So for all those out there in the world that think 14 yr old girls don’t know what they are doing………………..YOU’RE WRONG, my daughter is living, breathing proof to the contrary.
Warren, you and I often agree here but this time I am going another direction. While i think sex before graduating high school (or beyond) is not the best choice, I do not think it is evidence of a major character failing. That young mother has chosen a difficult path and it is easy for us to say she should have made an adoption plan for her baby…which would ALSO be an extremely difficult path. Giving up a baby is a lifelong commitment, jus as keeping the baby is a lifelong commitment.
I hope that she becomes an wonderful mother like other mothers who started too young have become. Some will fail miserably but there are 35yo parents who fail miserably, too.
My kids would not only go to the shower bearing gifts, they would continue being her friends to the best of their ability, supporting their friend in her choice.
Would i worry that my kids are headed toward the same choices their friend made? You bet I would. I would still be proud of them for making their own kind of principled choice.That isn’t BETTER than what your daughter did; it is just different.
marie,
I hear what you are saying. But I am proud of my daughter for sticking to her principles.
I understand that my daughter was not going to give her approval to a 14 yr old mom. Like my girl said, there is a big difference between helping a friend in a jam, and celebrating bad choices.
@Warren, I can completely understand a teenager feeling very awkward about attending another teen’s baby shower. And I would totally support their decision to pass on the invite. I also can understand that a non-pregnant teen being in a different clique than a pregnant one.
I think you should be proud that your daughter didn’t put herself at risk for becoming pregnant as a teen, whether that’s due to abstinence or birth control, but I’m not sure what declining an already pregnant teen’s shower invite does. Babies need stuff, showers are for helping expectant Moms acquire it.
Cedric, did you bother to read my post?
Legalmist, it sucks, but jobs aren’t impossible. He might have to get a less than stellar job for awhile. I’ve a friend on the registry who has a great job.
My opinion is less about his status and more about my lack of comprehension of parents just buying their adult offspring stuff. If that’s what they feel they want to do in this case, fine, but I know very few 19 – year-olds who require their parents to buy everything for them.
I simply think there had to be some way for him to generate income. They have programs just for these situations.
My cousin (now late thirties) was 14 when she met her boyfriend, who was 19 at the time. I don’t know how long they waited with sex, but I do know they’re now married and have two little girls.
Warren – A baby shower is about celebrating a new baby, not about celebrating a choice, bad or otherwise. The baby deserves to be celebrated as any other baby would be celebrated. If my child had the stance that her friend’s baby deserved something less than due to the mother’s circumstance, it would be a huge embarrassment to me and not something I would take pride in.
I would fully understand her not wanting to attend any baby shower (I hate them ). Or being uncomfortable at a peers at that age. I would also fully understand moving away from the friend as their lives are now diverging in a serious way.
In many societies girls marry at fourteen, boys at sixteen. They are not lesser beings. They are merely different.
“I can’t help but think of how that Duggar kid who actually sexually molested girls many years younger than him in no way that could possibly be considered consensual, isn’t on the sexual offenders registry ”
Because, while he was actually a child molester, he is not a CONVICTED child molester.
“(Don’tcha realize that ALL kids under 18 who have sex with an adult are coerced?). So now she is a victim who is now scarred for life and will need years and years and years of therapy and counseling just to enable her to lead a normal life! Yes, of course I’m being extremely sarcastic. But this seems to be the general assumption by the American legal system.”
This is, in fact, the assumption of the American legal system… any underage person who has sex with an adult was unduly influenced.
Now, everyone involved in the legal system knows full well that some people who are below the age of consent are fully capable of giving consent. They even know that some people who are over it, are not. But rather than have every case hinge on whether or not the prosecution can prove influence or not, or have every prosecution probing the actual capacity of the underaged person, they use age instead, because AGE IS EASY TO PROVE. A person who is 15 may or may not be able to make a well-reasoned decision of whether or not to have sex, taking into account all the potential ramifications. But 12 jurors looking at the EXACT SAME 15-year-old may reach 12 different conclusions. On the other hand, a person either is 16, or isn’t (or 18. Or 13. Whatever age the legislators have selected)
Has anyone noticed a connection between corruption in State Legislative bodies and which legislators in the State sponsor the ever-harsher sex-offender laws? I live in a State where corruption has run wild since forever. Where little gets done. And where, recently some top lawMAKERS have been brought up on corruption charges. Indicted. Trial to begin in November. And, guess what? These are the very ones whose names have been on all the sex offender laws since 1995. There is a fascinating connection. These pols are top vote getters. Who in their right mind would vote against someone who is a top dog in the field of saving our vulnerable children from predators and abductors and rapists and 19 year old teens looking for a new experience?
Even after the indictment, their constituents stood solidly behind their man! Maybe other states lack politicians who milk the panic of parents for wealth, fame and glory. But where I live, fear and hate and anger can be aroused by the mere suggestion of a strange man speaking to a child. And it has nothing to do with reality or statistics or logic or common sense or the interest of the growing child.
It is to keep the politicians rich, famous and in office. No questions asked.
The issue takes on the aura of a religious crusade, a war of good verses evil. When what it really is happens to be is a problem of ignorance. If little harm came to the girl in the Zachary Anderson case, then the penalty should be minimal. The punishment should fit the crime.
Going back all the way to 1994, the original Jacob Wetterling Act of 1994 was passed with the intent of making information sharing seamless across all state so that missing children could be found more quickly. And wrong doers brought to justice. It was not public, or punitive. It was a policing tool.
But the following year, the money issue took over, and the cash cow was born, and it now a monster. Babe the Blue Ox of all Laws to grow into monstrous untended smothering stupidities, totally unhinged from realities, with over 800,000 registered citizens, most posing no threat to society. But the benefit to State LawMAKERS is humongous. And to state and local police forces. Child Protective Services. Right down to the medical professionals treating all those over- weight kids whose terrified mommies and daddies won’t let them go out and play.
Maybe my State is unique. Maybe your legislators don’t tell you lies to keep you angry, fearful and ignorant.
I don’t live in Michigan, by the way. So that’s two states, mine and Michigan that do that, to benefit mean-spirited judges like His Honor the August Judge Wiley. And Senate Majority Leaders. And former sportscasters now sponsoring draconian residential restrictions against registered citizens.
How is it in your state? Do your public officials tell you the truth about the the kind of laws they have voted for that ruin the lives of young people like Zach?
Or look at it this way, in cost and benefit terms. The FRK essay above reminds us of that Zach will not be doing for twenty five years. If, on the other hand, he and others like him were not on the registry, what would be the POSITIVE gain to society? He would be just like us. You pay taxes, I pay taxes. Everyone except corrupt politicians pay taxes. ZACH WOULD GET A JOB AND PAY TAXES ALL HIS LIFE LONG. HE WOULD BUY STUFF AND DO HIS PART TO GET OUR CAPITALISTIC WHEELS TURNING.
And if we could get our fool state legislatures to roll the registry back to its appropriate 1994 design, WE MIGHT VERY WELL HAVE 700,000 MORE PEOPLE GETTING JOBS AND PAYING TAXES AND STRENGTHENING OUR ECONOMY.
We might have to look mighty hard to find the honest public servants who would be willing to go to our state capitols and do the jobs we elected them to do. But it’s worth a try.
Donna,
That’s a different way of looking at it. Not our way. Baby showers are for the mom, like bridal showers are for the bride. If baby showers were for the baby it would be a celebration by all, not just the women close to the mom to be. Sorry not buying it. That would be like saying my bachelor party was just as much for my bride. No, it was all about me. Yes that is egotistical. Because my bachelor party was the absolute last time I would ever be the center of attention. And don’t say, hahaha, at my funeral I will be the center of attention, because I have made it clear I don’t want a funeral, I don’t want a grave, headstone or anything.
Now I did have the best bachelor party ever thrown. I took my two daughters away for a fishing weekend. Just the three of us. No phones, no outside anything. Just the three of us for three days in Northern Ontario.
The traditional myth is that good girls have no sexual desire, only boys and bad girls do. So if a girl has sex (or even sex play) she has been “corrupted” and ruined forever. What nonsense! Normal little girls enjoy sex play as much as boys – maybe more. Desire should not be equated with deviance. Only after childhood when girls have been mentally castrated do they become passive and dysfunctional sexual objects rather than sexual agents.
Emily
“To restate that, I generally don’t call girls tramps and I understand teens participate in sex. But I do expect teens, like any other sexual person, to conduct sexual behaviors in a mature, responsible, and honest manner. Being 14 is hardly justification.”
I read that as her being 14 was hardly justification for her not being mature and responsible+- she and he are hormonal teenagers. She threw herself at him, he accepted. Mature and responsible doesn’t enter into the equation much in matters of biology.
Was your daughter 14 at the time of the shower? If so, I would consider questioning whether it was her choice not to go based on her values or your values. Had she not been worrying about approval from you (being the child, its normal and natural to not want to disappoint) she may have acted differently.
Are any of these sex offender cases in the pipeline for the Supreme Court? Doesn’t this sound like cruel and unusual punishment?
@James: age of consent laws are not entirely bad. The overwhelming majority of cases where someone was emotionally abused by an older partner to have sex has no witness and no traces.
It is already extremely difficult for jurors, judge and else to ascertain the facts where consent was clearly not given between adults, in rapes that didn’t involve a direct physical fight with injuries as a result, or that was not witnessed by anyone else. Now imagine that difficulty compounded by 100 when you have people trying to get into people’s minds to determine whether the flirtation of the older partner was “grooming” and whether the consent of the younger partner was not “fully informed”. How can that be determined in any acceptable way, other than having a standard that is way too low (“anyone before physical puberty can’t consent, everybody else can”)?
So, in principle, having age of consent is a positive thing, what is necessary is to have some safeguards and defenses available.
Will he get a reprieve? Almost certainly. If only to save the State of Indiana 25 years worth of paying him Welfare benefits– because he is unemployed, and unemployable, and not trainable, and untouchable. He will be expected to a job search, of course, but the futility of that will soon be apparent to the Welfare examiners, and he will be given a “free ride”, for 25 years.
Why? Because the voting public supports laws that keep him in isolation from every person under 18 years of age. And because he is, by law, prevented from rising to his full potential as a citizen of this country.
He and 800,000 others. Wasted talent.
Who is more employable?
A. A “sex offender” on the registry.
B. An “illegal immigrant” with a phony work permit and a fake social security number.
Who pays employment taxes and social security taxes as part of the withholding system?
A. A person on the registry who wants but can’t get a job.
B. A person with passable but counterfeit documents who is employed–until he is caught and deported.
Zach Anderson will be kept out of the appeals process that might lead to a Supreme Court review of these laws against petty offenders. Because the lawMAKERS, the judges and the Governors and the State Senators and the Speakers of the Legislative bodies are protecting their cushy offices by being TOUGH ON CRIME, and by protecting the children of their constituents.
You can bet on it. A reprieve.
@Emily — i don’t know why you are fixated on the help his parents are giving him. Lenore’s post mentions the impact on his college degree. If he’s still in college, it would be next to impossible to go to school and pay for a place to live, PARTICULARLY if there were specific limitations that made that difficult (like an apt due to proximity to children/playgrounds).
I highly doubt the “flip phone” was a huge expense, but I’m guessing the use of “we” was just that the family was working together to be compliant with the law.
This kid has been dealt a really bad hand, and his family is helping him. There is nothing suspect about that.
We are supporting our college aged kid in a similar manner despite the fact that he’s not facing this kind of life changing challenge. He is fortunate that we can afford to do that. Today it is nearly impossible for college kids to pay for their own education unless they get help from family, go into student loan debt, or are on scholarship (or a combo of the above).
Cedric,
Nice try but no. My kids have always been encouraged to speak their mind. They have always had my support when it comes to making a choice based on their principles and or morals. Her friend that got pregnant is probably a lot like the girl in this case. Had she the means to join a hook up app should most likely would have. My girl tried to help her at times, and simply was not going to show her approval. Not once did I ever even mention my views, as it is not my place.
Cedric, if you read the first post, you would realize I’m simply arguing the girl is deserving of legal punishment if these stupid courts see teens having sex as illegal. In no way do I blame Zach for not checking her age. The courts should not use “poor innocent girl” to ignore her contribution to the problem. And I do criticize the girl for lying–it proves she wasn’t ready for sex.
There is no point in creating ANOTHER legal situation, this time for a 14 year old, because of a stupid mistake.
It seems sometimes when unjust or punitive punishments are discussed here, people react with “sue the one who reported” or “charge the other person for [fill in the blank]”. I find it really confusing that people who are concerned about misuses and overuse of existing laws or bad laws reach the conclusion that MORE lives should be dragged down by a unfortunate series of events.
Keep the focus on the issue that’s already been identified, not create more murky stupid laws that do nothing to protect anyone.
If Warren ‘ s daughter was incapable of making such an ethical choice at age 14, I’d say he had raised her wrong. I knew and know plenty of teens that age perfectly capable and thoughtful of the same decision and consider it a rather normal level of maturity. She was 14, not an infant, and should be able to consider many a moral decision for herself. Isn’t part of FRK letting our kids do what they can? I don’t know hee exact thought process and suppose there are great reasons for attending the shower and not attending the shower. Warren ‘ s girl came to a moral conclusion and that’s that.
E. You are absolutely right. I would be disgusted if they went after the girl. I was merely expressing disappointment at the chaotic views the courts have of teen sex.
Emily Morris,
Thank you. I am very proud of all my kids. They all have the inner strength, and routinely stand their ground for what they believe in or take a stand against something they believe is wrong. Qualities I feel are severely lacking in today’s world of just accepting and not making waves.
E,
If this guy does not get a reprieve, and has his life ruined, then no she should not be able to walk away free and clear.
The big difference here is motive and method. She intentionally set out to commit this act. And she willfully lied to obtain her goal. The result is a man whose life will never be the same.
Let’s put it this way. Had she stolen the keys to moms car and went for a joyride. During which she hits this same guy and for the sake of argument paralyzes him. Would you let her walk away from that?
Listen, I am a firm believer that mistakes are mistakes, and in such no harm, no foul. But in this case there is very real and very serious harm.
I wouldn’t be disgusted if they went after the girl. After all, she chose to lie to the boy and not consider the consequences (or not care about them). There should be punishment and a grounding/paddling just wouldn’t do.
I’m not a biological parent, but I helped my last GF raise her three (for 10 years) so I’m not completely out of touch. I hope the mother took her privileges away, at least. I’d contemplate at least denying her FB, smartphone usage, and limit her to guarded internet usage for as long as feasible. I’m not completely naive, I know it would be nigh to impossible to do this unless the girl was kept home as much as can be. But, I would try.
The 19yo man has served time for this, and his punishment should end there. I’d wager he’d learned his lesson. He’ll probably require age proof in triplicate going forward. Denying him a future goes way further than necessary for what 30 years ago wouldn’t have made police blink.
David
“Listen, I am a firm believer that mistakes are mistakes, and in such no harm, no foul. But in this case there is very real and very serious harm.”
The harm comes from a law that criminalizes ordinary behavior. Instead of arguing about WHICH ONE should be crushed under the weight of the justice system, we should be clamoring to change the law so that consensual sex doesn’t land either of them in court.
@Warren, Marie and Donna are right. A baby shower is to make sure the new mom has the stuff she needs to raise a baby. It’s not about condoning teen pregnancy or other questionable choices.
Perhaps your daughter could have gotten her friend a car seat for the new baby. After all, you know how important it is that children are buckled up when they’re riding in a vehicle.
marie,
Yes the law is bad. And he is the victim of the law. He is also the victim of another person. He had no intention of doing anything illegal or wrong.
She did. This was not an accident on her part. She had motive, and intent. It was her intent to lie. It was her intent to dupe an older man. The problem I have with her walking away free and clear of punishment is the intent. This was not spur of the moment. Her lies and fraud played out over time. I don’t believe her life should be over, but she does not deserve a pass on this.
As for the baby shower. I firmly stand behind my daughter’s choice and reasons. A shower is not a stock up the new mom deal. It is a party and celebration. Dropping a bag of diapers off, a case of formula or whatever is stocking up the new mom.
Cake, music, games, gifts, and the lot…..hmmm sounds like a party to me.
If you cannot understand standing behind and being proud of your daughter for sticking to her principles and supporting her decision to not celebrate what she believes is inappropriate behaviour, then I feel sorry for your kids.
Of course. How could I forget? Only the births of “legitimate” babies to “correct” parents can be happy occasions. So for good measure, let’s boycott the kid’s future birthday parties, too!
After all, if it’s immoral to joyfully prepare for the birth of an “illegitimate” child by showing support for the mom and helping her out with baby items, it should also be immoral to celebrate the anniversary of its awful birth each year as well.
Sorry, kid. No presents for you.
I would be sad if my children had “principles” such as those.
JR,
Okay, so you have no morals. You have made that clear.
If you think it is acceptable for a 14 yr old to be proud she is pregnant and to be bragging about it, then you are a fool. If you think it is acceptable for a 14 yr old to continually dump their baby on Grandma so she can live her life like she has no kid, then you are a huge fool.
You were not there. You have no idea. And I am not going to write a fifty page bio to satisfy an arrogant ass like you.
I can’t believe I’m saying this (j.k.), but I agree with Warren on this. You can give the girl baby supplies without going to a party. There are, surely, ways to celebrate that newborn’s life without rewarding the girl with a party.
You know, I was going to comment on the distancing from the pregnant friend bit, but as Warren says, I wasn’t there. It could be his daughter saw the potential for ending up in a bad place for herself and was keeping herself on a good path. If so, I would be proud as well.
My sister ended up pregnant during her senior year in high school. Only two friends showed up for the shower. It appeared to me that she was hurt that more didn’t come to support her, and she ended up marrying the father. Btw, I don’t remember how many she invited. It could be she didn’t have any more than two friends and that was what made her seem that way.
The point is this. As the father, Warren, you see the POV from your daughter and you should. However, some people can see that 14yo’s POV. That’s why some of us have a problem with your daughter’s distancing herself from the friend. My sister could have used some good solid friends of undoubted moral strength those first few years. (Her brother doesn’t count to an older sister, go figure.)
Again, you and your daughter were there. You know the girl in question and your daughter undoubtedly saw trouble in staying her friend. So, kudos. However, it doesn’t take a lack of morals to wonder about the effect it had on the 14yo friend.
My sister was 18, btw.
@Marie – am a wee bit confused. If you mean that a 40 year old man who’s been on the registry since he was 19 for an ‘offence’ with a 14 year old is being treated unjustly, amen to that. If you mean a 40 year old who has sex with a 14 year old, then no, he is not being treated unjustly. Good grief, by that age a man should be mature enough to keep it zipped, surely?!
I am a little jaded on that sort of thing, to be sure. When I was 12 a classmate lost her mother in a particularly dreadful horse-riding accident. 2 years later, her sister, by then 12, had ‘consensual’ sex with a neighbour of their’s who was a bit over 40. It was quite shocking to me even in those days (pre sexual harassment laws etc) that many of the adults in town, including my own mother, felt the man had been unfairly treated when he was jailed. …
Sorry, but when did this become a thread about Warren’s daughter?
I’m shocked and saddened by some of the comments on today’s blog post. I don’t read it every day, but until now I had thought the commenters were, in general, progressive and enlightened. And most of them are. But it disturbs me to read comments calling the girl in this affair a “little tramp” as a defense of the boy. When did it become okay to defend the rights of the young man, no matter how wrongfully he was punished, by reviling the female in what is, after all, a two person act. The few commenters who said that sex is a natural and well-nigh universal connection between young men and women, boys and girls, are absolutely right. And the rest of you know it. So is lying and that happens all the time between sex partners for every reason under the sun.
Jill’s comment was a breath of fresh air and was, indeed, “well said.” Full disclosure, I am the product of one of those illegal alliances inasmuch as my mother married my father when she was not quite 16 and he was 28. They were happily married for nearly 60 years. Yes, human behavior is the same in a different century, but human laws are not. Our laws have made such a confusing patchwork of human rights that it’s a wonder anyone knows what’s right or wrong as they cross jurisdictions or enter a new political era. In some instances we bend over backward to correct past wrongs. At other times, we’re all too ready to get out the scarlet letter or even fire up the torches and chase the “monster.”
I feel so sorry for Warren’s daughters and I hope they never stray from the strict behavioral laws he has established for them. What a shame it is that they have been taught to revile a young contemporary who became pregnant, when they likely do not even know the circumstances surrounding her situation. In any case, she doesn’t deserve their indignant superiority.
I am all for changing our sex offender laws to exempt sex between consenting young people. But I would never use the defense that the girl in the case was the tramp who trapped the young man into it. And I wish I had not read comments here that explicitly accused this particular girl of that as well as other comments that tacitly agreed with such an unfair viewpoint.
Meg,
You should try reading more and talking less. Had you read all the comments and not just skimmed them, before picking a fight with me, you would have seen it was my daughter’s decision, not mine. And I supported her call. So you judgmental bitch, you can take you holierthanthou crap and shove it.
We, the People< have condemned an innocent man to 25 years of total loss of civil rights for a minor crime.
Zachary Anderson is not a threat to anyone. His crime was minor, and he got three months in jail–which he served.
He now presents no danger to society in any way, shape or form. The likelihood of his "reoffending" is low.
What kind of people are we that we must condemn our young ones to a life as Outcasts? Does it make us all feel big to create a huge underclass of Pariahs?
This is what we have been doing since 1995 in our creation of a public registry of mostly minor offenders–a registry that we enhance every year. It is now a monster, with 800.000 untouchables on it. they are all unemployable. So most are on Welfare. If they have addresses. Which some don't. They live on the streets, under bridges, wherever.
But these are the ones we need, because we need people we are better than. They are our moral examples, the ones we point our fingers at, and we can say, "Don't be like him!' Living examples in real time to ridicule and mock and shun and hate. It makes us look so good by comparison!
The only benefit to society in our–I say "our" because we are all guilty of condemning Zach– vile treatment of those who have already paid for their offenses is that we have been able to create a huge underclass of low-life cast-offs, a new caste system, of people who have committed the worst of all possible crimes: SEX, the mother of all sins, the original sin, the unforgivable and unforgiven.
We hate sex, it is evil, a crime, a sin. We hate the sinner even more!. But we love being able to point him out as an example of of the worst in our community. We have a living example of how moral we are because we can can point them out as "wrong", "evil", "sinners", ""miscreants", "lawbreakers".
So we can say in our Congress and and Legislatures, and Courts and Jails,
"Look what we have done!. We have criminalized 800,000 bogeymen and deprived them of all their civil-rights! We have done all in our power to deprive them of their manhood. We would castrate them if we could! Maybe that is the next new round of sex-offender laws! We'll get that on the table during your next legislative session! Another option is prison for life without parole! Or the death penalty!
ENOUGH.
FREE ZACH ANDERSON AND THE 800,000.
.
We detest sex. Not because it is harmful. It rarely is.
We detest sex because it is a sin. It rarely isn’t.
People rash-juge the mother of the young woman and condemn the young woman herself.
Did anyone notice that the mom was concerned about her daughter missing a medical treatment? What is worse? Risking a seizure? Or having sex at 14?
Death or shame?
Shame. Obviously. We must keep up appearances, at all times. It is what keeps the country strong.
We detest sex because it is a sin. It rarely isn’t.”
Maybe. Didn’t make the top seven, though.
Well said Meg.
We have no idea what led this 14 year old to make the choice to have sex and to lie about it. She clearly has things to learn from this situation (and I’m guessing she did since she became part of the legal process and had to testify). Was it female examples she’s seen somewhere in her family, examples of male treatment towards women, on TV, on some website…just part of her DNA?
My sister taught HS and at some point taught health classes. The stories she could tell about kids’ misinformation about many things sex related (pregnancy, STDs) was astounding. Not everyone knows everything when they are 14 unfortunately.
It is RIDICULOUS to use a tit for tat mentality in regard to what this girl could be held responsible for. The point is to get rid of the issues facing Zach and kids like him, not suck more people into the legal system.
And Warren, baby showers are not the same as bachelor parties. They are called “showers” because friends/family “shower” the mother/baby with gifts. The shower given to me when I had my first child had no games or alcohol, it was a gathering of friends who pooled their money and got me some big ticket items , some small items, and yes, even diapers. I didn’t have a shower when I had a 2nd child because I had all the items that I needed.
I fully support a 14 yo’s decision to skip a shower of a classmate/friend. But that baby is coming into the world with or without anyone’s approval. You could be proud of your daughter’s concern, confusion, disappointment for her friend’s decision to have casual unprotected sex. But if the former friend was told that her no-shows were some sort of punishment because of her mistake, well, that just feels punitive.
Should a parent, who no doubt was devastated to learn their 14 yo was pregnant, also skip the shower and any other event leading up to the birth, just to make sure the 14 yo knows they made a mistake and that they did not approve of sex at 14?
Wow, Warren, insults that rely on using somebody else’s gender as a putdown are such an articulate argument for your position.
I get the impression that people are reacting negatively to your story because babies are not culpable for their parents’ choices, or their bad luck for that matter. Baby showers are a ritual of transition to motherhood for the mother and a sign that the community in which the mother lives is willing to welcome a new person. A traditional U.S. baby shower includes mainly the things that new parents tend to underbuy, such as small-sized diapers. plus things that can really mess up your life if you lose the only one you have under the couch, such as infant thermometers, and a few nice things on top of all that, such as a picture dress. Once you strip out the recent “No, really, register for this huge expensive thing” salesmanship of the baby industry, that’s all it is. It isn’t an awards ceremony, and declining to attend on the grounds that the new mother is a [gendered insult related to having had sex here] doesn’t actually do anything useful.
E,
You are another one that can shove it. She was not concerned, confused or disappointed. My daughter has her sense of right and wrong, acceptable and not acceptable just like anyone else.
Jenny,
Had it been James being so insulting towards me and my daughters it would have been prick instead of bitch. Guess what I even call people he and she. Oh my god there are two genders of humans.
As my daughter said, helping is one thing and fine. Celebrating bad life decisions is another.
None of you were there, to see my daughter offer to babysit, take her over supplies and such. Again help is one thing and celebration and approval is another. So go take a long look in the mirror and judge that person, because both my daughters are twice the lady you’ll ever be.
@Warren, I have no idea why you resort to rude name calling when someone dares to offer another perspective.
I have never insulted you or your daughter in any way. I just read the story and had a different reaction to what a shower is all about (based on the ones I have attended) and how this young pregnant girl might feel. That’s it. My sister was an unwed mother (in her 20s not teens) and a nephew was an unwed father (in his 20s also). Those are stressful times for families even when people are adults and/or have college degrees, so I can think of the experience from that perspective.
That’s what discussion boards/forums/website are for, an exchange of ideas. There are certainly facts, stats, perspective that I’ve learned or reflected on from this website that I’ve shared with (ironically enough) my own Mother who raise a large brood of FR kids but now is silly about minor things with her grandchildren/great grandchildren.
I have no idea why you are insulting people in this manner. It seems as if anyone that even offers an different perspective must be called out and slammed by you. That’s always puzzled me.
“Warren, I have no idea why you resort to rude name calling when someone dares to offer another perspective.”
It’s just one of those things that happens, like mold growing on bread or milk getting chunky with age.
Do what I do… just don’t read anything he writes.
@James, I agree.
Some folks think that raising their voice is an appropriate substitute for strengthening their argument.
He reminds me of all those liberal types who screech about being “offended” whenever someone says something that challenges their point of view.
It usually just means that they can’t think of anything constructive to say in response, and so go all *ad hominem* in an attempt to shut down the speaker instead.
“He reminds me of all those liberal types who screech about being “offended” whenever someone says something that challenges their point of view.”
I agree, except that this behavior is in no way limited to “liberal types”. Partisans of either end are capable of falling into this.
So if, say, you point out that the lady who left her kid in the car might not have been making the best decision, and at the same time you point out that the dude who followed her into the store, making a video, was rather more than a little bit of a dick about it… you get flak from both sides.
If you point out that here you have a case of a girl who lied about her age so she could get some sex, which isn’t particularly noble or honest, but the guy also decided to have sex with someone he didn’t know well enough to know her true age, which is ALSO not particularly noble… you get flak from both sides.
If you have (to drag in a totally unrelated issue from recent headlines, a dude who shoots down a drone that wanders over his property, you have a guy who’s trespassing on the land of another, and a guy who’s idea of a proper solution was the destruction of the property of another. BOTH of these guys need to have more respect for property that belongs to other people.
But to partisans, everything done by anyone who’s on “our” side is good and noble and bursting with wonderfulness, and everything done by anyone who’s on “their” side is bad and evil and they probably kick puppies, too. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Warren is on a site that decries the punishment meted out to a young man who had sex with a girl a few years younger. But his empathy is entirely for the boy, whom he exempts completely from criticism, while he calls the girl ” a little tramp.” Warren is proud of his daughters who, unlike these other bad girls, are “ladies,” so presumably he was involved in forming their values. He approves of his daughter’s refusal to attend a shower for one of her “friends” who had the misfortune to become pregnant. The daughter, of course, has the right to attend or not. But Warren claims that the pregnant girl “would have used a hook up app to have sex if she had the means.” He later calls another commenter a “fool” and an “arrogant ass” and, not having previously brought this accusation into the story, suggests that his daughter’s “friend” is “proud [to be] pregnant [and is] bragging about it.” Not only that, she is “dumping” her yet to be born baby on Grandma “so she can live her life like [sic] she has no kid.” We don’t hear about any proof of any of his accusations. His much later turnaround assertion that his daughter offered to babysit (this unborn child) and took supplies to the pregnant girl does not have the ring of truth, especially since Warren later reiterates his approval of his daughter’s boycott of her former “friend,” calling down a curse on the unborn child by suggesting the inappropriateness of celebrating the child’s “awful birth” each year. When I have the gall to call him out on his misogyny, Warren puts a ribbon on it by calling me a “judgmental bitch” and suggesting I “shove it.”
In his steadfast support for the boy, Warren again and again uses the “little tramp” defense, maintaining that if “this guy” does not get a reprieve and has his life ruined, “she” — the afore mentioned “little tramp” should not “walk away free and clear.” Why? Because obviously, to Warren, she “intentionally” set out to commit this act to obtain her “goal.” By implication, then, the boy must have innocently stumbled into the web of lies and deceit constructed by this 14 year old seductress.
My support for more rational sex offender laws is firm, and I have much empathy for the then 19 year old boy, but I also have empathy for the girls—both the girl in the case and the young pregnant girl. We all have human frailties and this site is a useful one for pointing out the difference between rational and irrational laws and attitudes. But defense of one type of behavior shouldn’t involve vilifying others when both are more or less innocent of real crimes. I still don’t know why a person like Warren is tolerated on a site like this. Perhaps because he is more about bluster and bluff than about logical discussion, the other commenters give him the tolerance he refuses to give to them.
@Meg – I also came back after reading the discussion to post some defense of the girl involved. While I think that the prosecution of the boy is utterly ridiculous (both the initial arrest/sentence and the registry/probation) I find it extremely unlikely that the girl lied about her age to “entrap” the boy. She probably didn’t even lie about it trick him. I’m willing to guess she lied to look cool and to keep up with whatever age she had to give to utilize the hook-up app.
Someone used the analogy of her stealing a car – I think a better analogy would be a parent that had a lapse in judgement and there was a tragic outcome. How many times do we hear folks on this site arguing for parents to have the right to make a mistake (minor error in judgement) and if tragedy strikes chock it up to bad luck (because we’ve all made thousands of mistakes without tragedy) and still support the family. To this girl this was a minor sin – just enough to get her on the app and connected with the people she wants – like an adult claiming to having a better paying job and or to be a true blond. And unfortunately tragedy struck. And the boy was caught up in it too. But both the girl and her mom have done what they could to support the boy, asking the judge and prosecutor to dismiss that case. I’m sure this girl wishes a million times over that she didn’t meet up with him that night and set this chain in motion. But that doesn’t make her a slut or a bitch or any of these names that keep getting thrown about. It makes her human.
and @Emily Morris “And I do criticize the girl for lying—it proves she wasn’t ready for sex.” Really? Seriously? Then probably a good number of the adults in the US (I’d venture to guess the majority) are also not ready for sex because some type of exaggerated self-promotion (which to a young teen is all that presenting oneself as older is) is pretty routine for the dating/hook-up circuit.
And if lying in order to have sex proves the lack of readiness, how many very grown adults that are married would fall into that category when they don’t admit it to their hookup and/or decieve their spouses while doing it.
Given how shocked the adults here are at the way this has played out for Zach, it seems impossible to think that the 14 yo girl could ever have known the legal ramifications to him for having sex w/another teen.
Thanks, Jennifer and E for your comments. Unlike several people in this discussion, I knew nothing about the background in this case. To me, it wasn’t important. Anyway, I suspected that a lot of it was speculation. I only wanted to point out two things: first, that there were two participants and although one of them got a rough deal from the courts, that didn’t mean that the other one was a slut or a tramp. Secondly, I found Warren’s comments to be shockingly mysogynistic and inappropriate and I thought somebody should say so.
Meg,
Where to begin.
First and foremost all three of my kids have more respect and integrity than you could ever hope for.
Whenever someone uses misogyny in an argument I usually dismiss them as the kook they are and leave it alone. Unfortunately for you, you have called my daughter’s integrity and principles into question.
Nice try, but an epic fail. You use words such as misfortune, curse and awful birth to try and illicit a response that will support your unfounded accusation of misogyny. Misfortune, curse and awful birth are your words, which makes me wonder just what your morals are.
You basically can call me whatever you want, you can lie about me all you want, you can label me all you want, that is fine. I really do not care. You start in on my kids, and you and I have a problem.
Now your use of misogyny combined with your view of this girl as just making a mistake and not having intent to do wrong, says a great deal about you. It says that you see all women as weak and victims.
Yes she was a little tramp, and for lack of a better term he is a dog. Now this is where the similarities end.
He was looking to hook up with women around his age. He did not lie, nor misrepresent himself.
She was looking to hook up with men older than her, by means of misrepresentation and lies.
He had no intent of doing anything wrong. She did.
He was honest. She lied.
His life hangs in the balance.
Hers is just fine other than some bad press.
20 years from now she can have a career, family, and a wonderful life.
20 years from now he will be lucky to be flipping burgers in some roadside grill.
So yes she needs to be held accountable for her actions.
Oh and by the way, calling someone a bitch does not make them a misogynist. If it did, there are a lot of women out there that hate women. I have never hated a single group of people for any reason. I only hate and dislike individuals such as yourself.
to enter the fray, baby showers started out as a way to “shower” the expectant parents with things they would have trouble affording because they were just starting out in life and marriage and probably had few to no savings. they have however turned into a “look at me i’m pregnant and you’re not” money and gift grab just try bringing simply gifts like diapers or a cute bib set and see how it’s recieved. as for values and approval and 14 year olds not making decisions, try listening to a bunch of girls that age. i have and alot of talk, especially if their parents are trying to set limits on them, is about how “i’m gonna have a baby and then i can get my own apartment and not have to listen to them”. that’s right folks, this is what they are taught in health class that the state will take care of you and set you up independent of parents. not to wait not to listen to parents because according to school they can’t stop you. we either need to accept that parents have authiority over children or the state does, either way if they can live on their own at 14 mybe this should be the age of consent.
Hineata, you asked about my “what if Zach were 40” scenario. When I wrote that, I was thinking about people suffering on the registry. Public shaming that is used to support a refusal to hire or a refusal to house–or that gives people license to torment strangers–is a civil rights violation. Those who have served their sentence (as 19yo Zach did and as the hypothetical 40yo Zach did) ought to have their civil rights returned to them.
I think it was Diana Greene who pointed out that we are talking about sex here. Just plain old garden-variety sex. How did we come to the point where sex in so many instances is considered a crime? Even if it is sex between wildly inappropriate partners, it is still just plain old sex. If there is coercion, then it is no longer plain old sex and a decision needs to be made as to whether a crime was committed. The fact that the girl is 14 or that he is x years older seems such an odd way to decide if the sex is legal or not. Arguing about whether a 14yo shows good judgment or good morals when deciding to have sex is very different from making that sex a crime. We could have the same argument about people having sex at any age.
Lay off Warren, people. He is defending his daughters, the same as any of us would do. Free range parents surely know that the world is full of all kinds of parents and all kinds of family expectations. His expectations for his daughters do not fall outside the norm AT ALL. You can disagree with him (I did) but this discussion has gone way beyond disagreement. Nasty stuff on both sides. Agree to disagree and move on.
@James – You’re right. People of all stripes are capable of using poor argumentation and ad hominem attacks.
At least in terms of public, mass-media-movement “outrage” and “offense,” however, I’ve noticed that Left-leaning voices and views dominate those conversations. I’m sure folks on the Right are plenty outraged and offended about various things, too, but it’s rare to see right-wing outrage as a mass-media movement or a dominant theme in a news cycle.
I can see Warren’s point that IF one of the two should get in trouble for having consensual sex, it should be the girl: she misrepresented herself.
But I agree with Marie that, of course, what they did should not get either of them in legal trouble.
“[a 14-year-old] who had the misfortune to become pregnant”
‘Misfortune’? These days getting pregnant is for like 99% a decision.
Re baby shower: how can you welcome a baby into this world if s/he’s still in the womb??
“I’m sure folks on the Right are plenty outraged and offended about various things, too, but it’s rare to see right-wing outrage as a mass-media movement or a dominant theme in a news cycle.”
Rush Limbaugh has made a fairly substantial income from being professionally outraged. Fox news trades heavily in outrage-of-the-day, as well. If you’re not seeing it, it’s because you’re not looking very hard. To claim that conservatives don’t seem to have mastered outrage-of-the-day is to be unaware of talk-radio for the past 30 years.
“I can see Warren’s point that IF one of the two should get in trouble for having consensual sex, it should be the girl: she misrepresented herself.”
Neither one should be “in trouble” with the law (with parents, different story) but he’s the one who is an adult. “You’re older. You should know better”, as my mama used to say.
“‘[a 14-year-old] who had the misfortune to become pregnant’
‘Misfortune’? These days getting pregnant is for like 99% a decision. ”
Misinformation about preventing pregnancy remains rampant, even in our Internet age. “Abstinence-only” sex-ed certainly didn’t help any.
“Re baby shower: how can you welcome a baby into this world if s/he’s still in the womb??”
You can welcome a new family to the neighborhood even before they move into their new house by leaving a gift on the doorstep.
Let’s be clear. In a perfect world neither party should be in any sort of trouble. I am not saying the girl should be punished for the lie, for the hook up site or even for the hook up itself. What I am saying is that her actions have severely harmed this young guy. That is what I believe she needs to be held accountable for.
For people like Meg,
My daughter is now 24, a teacher and wonderful lady. She is currently travelling in Thailand. Just today I had a woman ask me “How could you let her travel to such a dangerous place?”
My answer, “She’s an adult. I don’t LET her do anything. She does what she wants.”
And this woman, a customer of ours, obviously didn’t like my answer.
In the Netherlands there’s now a somewhat similar case running.
Guy goes to a pimp to hire a prostitute for the night. Guy hooks him up with one of his girls, they have sex (of course, he paid for it).
Months later the pimp gets arrested for trafficking in underage girls, the guy’s name comes up on his cellphone.
Turns out the prostitute was 14 years old, made up to look like an adult.
Guy had no intention of having sex with a minor, was under the impression the girl was an adult, prostitution is legal in the Netherlands so that was no crime either.
But he’s in for possibly years in prison, a lifetime on the sex offenders’ registry, his career and social life are shattered.
And what’s our ministry of justice say when questioned about why they’re prosecuting this victim? “he should have asked her for ID”, as if a pimp that careful to make a minor appear like an adult wouldn’t ensure the girl had a fake passport showing her to be over 18.
marie,
Thank you, and thank you for reminding me of the nasty stuff. My apology for any and all comments that may have or did offend you. You took the high road, admirable.
@JT Wenting: That girl was 16, not 14.
I don’t think they’re going away for years, since the demands were more like 6-12 months, but they do get this on their record, so if they have/wanted a career as a school teacher or something, they’re screwed. Still nothing compared to being on the American SOR for 25+ years though…
“Guy had no intention of having sex with a minor, was under the impression the girl was an adult, prostitution is legal in the Netherlands so that was no crime either.”
How do you know the guy had no intention of having sex with a minor? Because he said so?
(Also, while prostitution is legal, pimping is not. So… why is he dealing with a pimp to obtain the services he desires?)
For someone that says he is not a lawyer, James is now versed in the laws of the Netherlands.
@Marie – OK, 40 year old Zach should certainly have his rights returned to him. 40 year Olds knowingly sleeping with 14 year olds…not so much.
@Warren – Thailand. …how exciting! I found that place one of the prettiest and also the saddest places I’ve been. So beautiful….and so damn exploitative. The young girls in the hotel behind a glass wall that men could come and choose from were all 14 or 15….and they were old for Hatyai, the place we were.
Anyway I hope SHE has a great time. And even for America surely 24 is a bit late to be asking permission from parents to do something. Hard to believe a Canadian woman would ask something like that!
hineata,
Yeah, she is one of those moms. I have met her daughter, and put her around 28-30 yrs old. Still lives at home. Very shy, quiet and what seems like nervous. I have seen this with daughters of immigrant parents before. Dad is a plumber, has his own company. She didn’t go to college, but straight into doing the books and reception for dad’s business. You know the type, when you meet them you can see there is a whole different person under the surface.
Immigrant – yeah, often a different kettle of fish. That’s sad.
If she’s Chinese though, got a nephew she could have, LOL! Can’t understand him, 29, well-spoken, friendly, just bought a house, job that pays well….and no girlfriend! Which wouldn’t matter at all except he’s looking for love 🙂
“this is what they are taught in health class that the state will take care of you and set you up independent of parents”
Do you have a link to any curriculums that show this?
@Buffy…
Sigh… I think you mean “curricula.” Nothing personal; I just wish that Latinate plurals were still en vogue these days.
And as a former teacher, I can tell you that sex-ed curricula, by and large, are vague by nature and may not even be taught by a teacher from the school. It’s possible that an outside educator fills in the gaps. In addition, the outside educator may editorialize on whatever topics s/he sees fit to discuss.
While, in my experience, it’s not explicitly taught in Sex-Ed that the State will provide for you in case of a stupid choice, the kids know it first-hand through life experience. They know that if you are too poor to support yourself, the gub’mint will help you out through Section 8 housing, food stamps, Obama-phones, and other handouts. It’s understood that you don’t have to pull your own weight unless you really want to, and that there’s no penalty for having a boat-load of children. It’s your “choice,” after all.
As a parent of a student in public school and most private schools, you have a right to review the sex-ed curriculum in your child’s class, pull your student out for a day if you don’t agree with what’s being taught, or sit in the classroom with your student to hear first-hand what is going on. I encourage you to make this choice and be involved in your child’s education.
“the kids know it first-hand through life experience”……..which is completely different from it being taught in school. We are about the facts here, right? Then please show me a link from a reputable source that proves that this is what’s taught in school.
“while prostitution is legal, pimping is not”
“For someone that says he is not a lawyer, James is now versed in the laws of the Netherlands.”
And as usual, he’s wrong!
Sigh…
@Buffy, I’ve been there. I’ve been a middle-school teacher and sat in to supervise a middle school classroom while the students were being taught about sex-ed from an outside “expert” contracted by the school.
They learned about how to put a condom on a banana or on their heads; and what an STD was; and where one can go to get an abortion, if necessary. In my experience, the written “curriculum” for these classes is incredibly vague, and I believe it’s done on purpose by those with an agenda.
For example, the lesson plan might state, “The student will be able to (SWBAT, for those with an education background) identify different STDs, the modes of transmission for different STDs, the symptoms of those STDs, and the treatment or prevention for each STD.” You can imagine for that type of objective, there are many different avenues an outside sex-ed educator might take to address it.
Now, imagine if we replaced “STD” with “pregnancy,” and how many different factual directions a pro-choice (or for that matter, pro-life) sex-ed educator might take that conversation.
Sex-ed begins at home. And it’s not just about the birds and the bees, but about the very human feelings and physical and emotional responses and consequences we have regarding physical intimacy with another person.
“”while prostitution is legal, pimping is not”
“For someone that says he is not a lawyer, James is now versed in the laws of the Netherlands.”
And as usual, he’s wrong!”
Assuming by “he’s wrong”, you mean “he’s reported the facts accurately”, sure.
Human trafficking is still illegal in the Netherlands, though prostitution is legal.
“For someone that says he is not a lawyer, James is now versed in the laws of the Netherlands.”
For someone who says he IS an I.T. administrator, it shouldn’t be surprising that he’s heard of Google.
hineata,
Not even Asian of any type. 100% Greek. LOL, their last name has ever letter in the alphabet except for F. Good people, and the perfect customers. Dad will come in with a family car, or one of their company vans, and just say he wants new tires, and that’s it. The very first time he came in, I tried to explain the differences in tires, and the price brackets, and he wanted none of it. “I know nothing of tires. I am a plumber. You do what needs to be done.”
was his answer give or take some. Really heavy accent.
@JR, The commenter said the following:
this is what they are taught in health class that the state will take care of you and set you up independent of parents. not to wait not to listen to parents because according to school they can’t stop you.
Yes, I find this statement very hard to believe and asked for proof. Sorry that makes you sigh. Maybe just don’t read my posts?
I have known several girls, peers of my kids, who got pregnant in high school. Not a single one was “set up” by the government independent of their parents. I’m pretty sure the government, whoever that is, would be in some trouble for setting up a 14-year-old in her own apartment and allowing her to live alone because she was pregnant and didn’t like her parents.
Oh yeah, and sorry for not knowing Latin. I’m dumb.
Just heard that a well-known (at least over here) sexuologist from Belgium, Goedele Liekens, went to Britain to give their teens some sex ed like they’d never seen before…
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-08-06/why-britain-needs-to-ramp-up-its-sex-education
Since pretty much the same goes for the USA…
(Haven’t found the actual documentary online yet though 🙁 )
James, you mentioned the john should have known the girl was underaged or that at least something was illegal, because he was dealing with a pimp. But being a pimp in and of itself is not illegal. I repeat: NOT ILLEGAL.
Like several of the johns in this case said, he could be just there to protect the girl from violent ‘customers’.
It only becomes illegal when the woman is forced (in whatever way) and/or younger than 18.
So, yes, you are wrong.
I don’t know what source of information you thought you found, but it’s a bad one.
“James, you mentioned the john should have known the girl was underaged or that at least something was illegal, because he was dealing with a pimp.”
No, I did not.
“I don’t know what source of information you thought you found, but it’s a bad one.”
It was THIS SITE.
https://www.freerangekids.com/19-y-o-on-sex-offender-list-for-consensual-teen-sex-may-or-may-not-get-reprieve/#comment-380224
“Months later the pimp gets arrested ”
If the tradeoff for legal prostitution is that they can arrest you for things that aren’t illegal, then no thanks.
what they do, ms. buffy, is tell their social worker[and if they’re pregnant and in high school cps gets involved fast] is that their parents don’t approve and they feel fearful of them. which opens the doors to said apartment ,food stamps,heath care etc. what REALLY hurts is when the state [ny in this case] turns around and bills the parents for all this, since it can’t come out of their bottom line. eeven though said parents have no say whatsoever in this and may be barred by cps from seeing the grandchild[because if their daughter did’t feel safe around them how can they be trusted around a newborn]. i’m glad your friends parents were there for them, how long ago was this?
“what they do, ms. buffy, is tell their social worker[and if they’re pregnant and in high school cps gets involved fast] is that their parents don’t approve and they feel fearful of them. which opens the doors to said apartment ,food stamps,heath care etc.”
In the sense that they do not get their own apartment, they are not freed from adult supervision, and they do not get set up for a nice, easy life.
Pregnant teens who are separated from their parents (by either’s choice) land in group homes. Which suck. A lot.
@James – the pimp was arrested for trafficking UNDERAGE girls. Which says nothing at all per say about whether pimping is against the law….only the pimping of, in this case termed trafficking of, girls under whatever age is legal for prostitution in the Netherlands.
Do you have to be so rude?
And what you said is far from “the government will set you up and take care of you” being taught in health class in school.
Thank you, Hineata.
@James: Another incorrect conclusion. Didn’t I say somewhere that pimping is only illegal if the woman is forced or younger than 18, and wasn’t it clear to you that the girl in this case was a minor?
“It was THIS SITE.”
You mean the comment that incorrectly stated the girl’s age as 14 instead of 16, which I then corrected? Yeah, very reliable source.
“No, I did not.”
Right, James, I summarized your (first) incorrect conclusion from memory so you’d know what I was talking about before I went on to explain to you why you were wrong.
I’m curious about why judgment has fallen so harshly on the young woman in this case. Opinions seem to differ on what her offense was, or which of her offenses was more serious.
Was it telling a lie? To a computer? At her age, wouldn’t that be considered a prank? My friends and I were only about twelve when we phoned boys we admired, who were, of course, older, and we pretended to be older ourselves, and we flirted. It was practice.
Teeny boppers at concerts pretend to be older. Some get to meet their idols. And sometimes it gets out of hand. Is that the worst crime of the century? It wasn’t in 1964 when the Beatles were wowing prepubescent and barely post pubescent girls. It was accepted. Girls fainting at Elvis concerts. Normal behavior. Doesn’t this still go on? It is largely a way for the girls to act grown up, and pretend. So why all the excitement about lying to a machine?
Perhaps the machine should be charged with a crime for egging her on?
Diane Green,
Really, lying to a machine? She lied to him, and in all reality there could be many others out there. Really what are the chances that he was the only one.
She intentionally did something wrong causing another person great harm. Sorry it all comes down to her intent. Now I am fairly sure she did not set out to hurt him, but then again a con artist isn’t out to hurt someone, they are out for the money. In both situations the harm to the victims life is usually not seen by or considered by the person committing the act.
so using a title of respect[ms.] is rude? asking a question about your childrens friends is rude? perhaps not agreeing with you totally is rude? give me a clue. and to answer the question, where do you think they learn what to say to cps?
“: Another incorrect conclusion. Didn’t I say somewhere that pimping is only illegal if the woman is forced or younger than 18, and wasn’t it clear to you that the girl in this case was a minor?”
Saying “pimping is legal unless coercion is involved” is akin to saying “bank robbery is legal, unless you take somebody else’s money by using or threatening to use force.”
“Right, James, I summarized your (first) incorrect conclusion from memory so you’d know what I was talking about before I went on to explain to you why you were wrong.”
You made up something, attributed it to me, and then… I don’t care.
@James: Saying ‘I was wrong’ really is too hard for you, isn’t it?
I’ll let you know when it happens.
… if it ever does.
Give up, Papillio – those of us able to read and comprehend English fully know what you’re saying :-). Leave the ‘copy and paster’ to his own devices….
By the way your English is always excellent. The European education system is marvelous when it comes to languages, isn’t it? I wish we had better ‘other’ language teaching…..it’s so useful.
Hey I AMA guy just looking for a big tit girls number
yes I am