7 Reasons to Say YES to Sleepovers!

My daughter had a sleepover just last night. The girls (age 11) played Minecraft for a while, then pretend games with 1000 stuffed animals in my living room. They obediently turned out the lights at 10:15, and giggled loudly for 90 more minutes. There was no junk food (well, cinnamon rolls for breakfast), soda, bad TV/violent video games (they aren’t allowed to do PPV and they know it), laciviousness, alcohol, or drugs.

I’m thankful she has friends whose parents will allow this sort of thing – being able to spend more than 2 hours with your close friends teaches you a lot ….
.

It is perfectly acceptable for adults to occassionally get together with friends, eat too much, drink too much, get loud, and act stupid. With the resulting hangover the next day. A self inflicted wound to which sympathy is not required, nor should be expected.

I am not going to deprive kids of their right to do the same thing. And to an 8 yr old, a junk food and pop hangover can be just as bad.

The rape / molestation thing does worry me sometimes- since we know that most abuse is committed by relatives or friends of the family.

lol because you might have to say no sometimes you should say no all the time? Um ok, so you can’t have another yogurt right now, ergo I should never let you have one, because it’s awkward when I have to say no?

Erm yeah.

(Ha seriously, can you imagine this person’s reaction to sleep-away camps)

LisaS, I’m laughing, because hours of playing Minecraft is exactly what happened at the sleepover for my daughter’s 11th birthday party. All the kids brought their iPods or iPads, and they played Minecraft much of the night. They stopped for a little while to do each others’ hair and to put on a play – some things don’t change. It being a birthday party, I didn’t give them a time to go to sleep, just a time that they had to be quiet enough to not wake my other kids.

Loved the comments you highlighted: the first was sensible; the second very funny.

My favorite part of the “Sleepovers Are Bad” story was the aside about the possible danger of letting your child sleep at a house where a teenager (GASP!) might actually live. You know, as the older brother or sister of the child’s friend and part of someone’s family.

I can’t stand this demonizing of teens in our culture: as if they are all lepers who should be shunned, or at the very least, kept far away from their contaminating effect on other people’s precious little ones.

Rather than expose your child to these nasty beasts (some of whom, I seem to recall, babysit), just don’t let them enter a house where one might lurk.

Here is a good one. I am taking my two girls camping this weekend. Ages 12 & 8. One night. Guess what I found another family who will let their 12 year old daughter come with. BTW, I am a man. OMG I will 1.5 hours away at a campground with someone else’s daughter. Well, I guess this family trusts me. My wife won’t be going, OMG.

And BTW, the kids will have a ton of fun. We always do. Who doesn’t like to be away from Mom for a night. Sure we will snack a little, but we will burn off tons.

I assumed the anti -sleepover list was satire until I got to the molestation line. We have the same philosophy as our parents. We trade off kids for sleepovers as soon as the visiting kid can effectively wipe his/herself. Mostly because I have no desire to mess with someone else’s kid’s poop myself.

They must have deleted their ridiculous article because I can’t even find it on search on their website.

I love the “7 Reasons to Say Yes” because that sort of response is exactly how we need to react to fear mongering. Sleep overs are fun, and fun is an essential part of a healthy childhood.

All of these things are good things, and all of them can be accomplished without sleeping with fifteen peers in someone’s basement.

@ Holly and Gina (the anti-sleepover version and not the evil gas guzzling version) –

Yes but they’re a whole lot more fun to do at sleepovers.

It would appear that the original “sleepovers are bad” article has been taken down…unless I’m mistaken?

Yay us?

Yes, it appears that article has been removed. Sounds like FRK impact!

Kids can do #1-7 without having a sleepover.

They can also get into all the trouble you are trying to prevent…without going to a sleepover.

@Jenna K

So you were a stuck up prude that ratted out her friends, and then is upset because they wanted nothing to do with you after. I wonder why…………..

Calling boys at night? OMG you tramps!

Mooning cars? OMG call homeland security!

Checking out the playboy channel, oh lessoned learned.

Ratting out your friends was probably the most inexcusable thing you did that night.

I am glad to see you think so little of your child and their friends, that a sleepover is going to turn into some orgy of the undead.

Warren, must you always talk in such extreme terms? It’s tiresome.

Maybe, SKL, but replying to the last two posts with “well, but they still don’t have to” seems… I don’t know, pointless.

Obviously no two of us share the exact same opinions (and god, how creepy would that be?), but I read those comments as “all the things you said don’t matter, nobody should do sleepovers because they’re not necessary”. It is possible they meant “sleepovers don’t work for our family, and I don’t think my kid is deprived”, but that’s not how it looked to me.

@Jenna–
Not one of the sleepovers I had was anything like that. Maybe my friends and I were just boring, but I think the worst thing that we ever did was one afternoon, when left alone a few hours, we… jumped on the bed and slid down the stairs in our sleeping bags. The rest of our time was just spent playing. Seemingly endless hours of time to play– often accompanied by junk food (specially selected for the occasion), perhaps a movie rental, and chatter about life and stuff. It was just extended time playing, really. And trying, in vain, to stay up until midnight (or as late as we could without getting in trouble for being too noisy or giggly.)

Clearly, I have fond memories of sleep-overs. And it’s not just the same otherwise. I had plenty of play time with my friends, but sleepovers (both planned and last-minute calls home with “Can I stay the night”) are something I look back on fondly.

I could never pre-emptive deny my kid(s) of a chance for their own positive experiences. Why not let the kid decide if they want to go, or not?

I think that the reason people are upset about this is that by saying no sleepovers is saying ” I don’t trust you, you are a bad parent, you will hurt/kill/molest my precious helpless darling” it is judgemental. It is condemning/accusing someone without any proof, crime or evidence. But it is their child so they can choose, what gets me mad is telling me how to raise my child.

@Jenna K That story says more about your friends and you when you were kids then about sleepovers themselves.

Where I live, there is nothing like a sleepover. It is simply not done.

However, 15-16 years old go for vacancies together without adults with them and we never watch porn, egged houses or called other kids in the middle of the nigh. I’m not saying we have been saints, but the misbehavior definitely does not have to rise to the level you describe.

Also, being shunned for the rest of the school year by all the girls is real bullying. That it happened says more about atmosphere in that school then about sleepovers. Teachers should have intervene at that moment.

@Jenna K – wow, your sleepovers do sound at the extreme end of things. I’m with others here, never had anything near that kind of experience, at any age…..even as a fifteen year old walking uptown at 1am, all we did was sit on the dairy fence and chat (‘uptown’ ain’t that cool, in a town with maybe ten shops!). If I had had your experiences on a regular basis, maybe I would think differently about sleepovers, but in my experience they’re genuine basic fun….and my kids seem to have had the same fun, fortunately.

@Warren – really, how old is a third grader? Eight or nine? In what part of the Western world would an eight or nine year old be a prude if they were uncomfortable viewing porn?

Jenna K, I’m sorry you were exposed to that. That wasn’t right and I see nothing of the “stuck-up prude” about an 8 or 9 year old girl being uncomfortable with pornography and even if there was? YOU HAVE AN ASSERTIVE RIGHT TO FEEL THE WAY YOU FEEL.

No person, child, teen or adult should be subjected to anything sexual against their wishes. There’s no shame in what you did or how you felt.

@hineata
Careful. You’ll get the sheep in trouble again.

Warren talks big but in real life, I doubt he would have yelled at his own third-grade daughter for calling home in the porn channel situation. And as a parent, if Warren thinks it’s terrible to inform another parent that a group of primary-school girls are watching porn while visiting, well, he might just be on his own island there.

Don’t know the law in Canada, but in the USA it’s illegal to expose children to porn. I’d want to know if kids had hacked into a porn channel in my house.

I’m anti-sleepover. It’s pretty easy to see it’s a situation that tires out kids.

But I”m a boy. Sleepovers are girl things. I’ve never been to one and none of my friends growing up had any.

Based on my sister’s experience hosting one or two, the girls stay up talking and talking, then a little scheming, lay around with makeup and gossip. The next day’s shot for everyone. This includes parents who inevitably stay up later than they believed they would.

@Warren It is not wrong for 8-9 years old to tell the truth to her parents. It is ok for 9 years old to call parents to get her out of situation she is so much uncomfortable in.

Damm, it is ok for 17 years old to call parents when 17 years old feels the party is going out of control. That is something most of us is raising kids to do.

Plus, what she wrote does not sound like accidentally seeing the channel for 5 minutes and then turning it off.

If it was as innocent as you say, then it is the adults that made big deal of it to be blamed. Maybe dad who left channel available for kids and then compensated by giving them trouble after they watched it?

Shunning 8-9 years old from all peers in school for a year is bullying. That sort of thing can happen only if someone makes a campaign against her and I have guess who that might be. That sort of thing never happens by itself.

Uninvolved kids normally forget much sooner (as in days/weeks). They do not care about somebody elses grudges for that long, unless someone is working on that.

If they would get angry on her, that would be normal. If only those girls would not talk to her, that would be normal. When it is whole school for a year, then it is bullying.

@matthew
We also played Risk. If you like that kind of game, but dislike how it (never) ends, with 2 colors battling over the world, try History of the World. Everyone gets 7 turns. So it has a defined ending.

I have to agree with Warren.

Jenna K was NOT bullied. She was ostracised by her peers after telling on them for some rather dubious behaviour, not picked on because of her personality, appearance or any of the other of the usual motivations for bullying. They were angry with her over a specific incident and there was nothing the teachers could have done about it anyway.

Nor was she abused. She found herself in a situation she was uncomfortable with but had enough self confidence to walk away from it. The way some of you are blowing this out of proportion I’m surprised no one has suggested her classmates should have been put on the SOR.

‘Free range’ or not, many of the people posting on this site are just as irrational and hysterical as society in general

Quick definition:

Bullying: Use of superior strength or influence to intimidate someone, typically to force him or her to do what one wants.

I think that using ostracizing as a form of punishment falls under that definition.

I’m not Jenna, so I’m not entirely sure how the “Playboy channel” incident at the sleepover went down, but I was an eight-year-old girl once too, so I have a feeling that it went something like this:

HOST CHILD: “My daddy has the Playboy Channel, but he says it’s just for grown-ups. Oh, my parents are asleep now, so let’s watch it.”

Host Child turns to the Playboy Channel, and the other kids go along with it, because it’s her sleepover, and her house, and they don’t feel they have a choice. Some are shocked, some are intrigued, but none of them speak up.

JENNA: “Aww, I don’t want to watch that. Let’s watch E.T. instead.”

HOST CHILD: “No! It’s my sleepover, and my house, and we’re watching Playboy.”

Jenna attempts to leave the room.

HOST CHILD: “You’re just being a chicken!!! Bawk, bawk, bawk, CHICKEN!!!!”

At this point, the other kids join in. Jenna calls her parents, tells them she wants to come home because she feels uncomfortable, and, upon returning home, they ask her why. Jenna, being eight, assumes that this is to be a private conversation, but then the next day, Jenna’s mother calls Host Child’s mother, who calls the parents of all the sleepover guests. Mass punishment ensues. Jenna feels guilty for “causing” this, and dreads returning to school on Monday.

By lunchtime that day, the rumour has spread like wildfire (probably revised quite a bit, to paint Jenna as a “stuck-up prude,” as Warren would say), and Jenna is miserable. Her parents tell her she did the right thing, and to just ride it out, but all the girls continue to shun her for the rest of the school year, which feels like an eternity to an eight-year-old. Meanwhile, the whole thing feels like a lose-lose, in which the only option that would have prevented the shunning would have been to be quiet and watch the Playboy Channel with the others; some of whom might have felt uncomfortable as well, but weren’t brave enough to speak up.

Now, I know that the Playboy Channel isn’t akin to rape or anything, and I don’t think the other girls at the sleepover should be put on the sexual offender registry, but early experiences like that give kids the message that their feelings don’t matter, and that speaking up if they feel uncomfortable will cost them all their friends. Obviously, that’s not a good thing for kids to learn.

Anyway, Jenna, like I said, I’m not you, but is that a reasonably accurate representation of what happened? I hope you’re not offended, but I was just trying to get people to understand how things can be from the viewpoint of the “rat” (air quotes, because I don’t believe you really were a rat).

But I agree with your point about activities being the culprit vs. the friends/environment.

Natalie I agree that “being tired” can come into play at parents’ discretion. If my son has showne the past two weekends that he is cranky and badly-behaved and homework wasn’t getting done and he was generally being a pain in the neck way more than usual after sleep overs then yes he can’t have one this time. Honestly, why aren’t we allowed to make our own convenience part of our parenting decisions?

Hmmm… fiction.
Emily is filling in blanks.
Warren, instead of apologizing for calling Jenna’s 8-9 yr old self a stuck-up prude, is changing details he doesn’t like.

I do think that some people “decide” that their kids will never do abc based on what they know at a point in time (their own experience, etc.), but then when it comes up for real, they will decide based on what makes sense in the immediate circumstance.

There is a wide range of “sleepover” definition and experience. There’s two best girlfriends hanging out and asking their moms if the visiting friend can stay until morning. And there’s pre-planned “pajama parties” involving various kids who have various degrees of closeness with the host girl/family. And everything in-between. I don’t know what any individual above is picturing when she says “no sleepovers for us” or whatever.

I have no problem saying “no” to my kids on a case-by-case basis. Maybe I know and trust Jenny and her parents, but I have reason to distrust (or simply don’t know) Junie or her parents (or the rest of the sleepover group). I don’t personally feel that I need a blanket rule one way or the other. Maybe my kids will convince me otherwise at some point.

Warren, unless you were there in the room with those girls, you do not know what they were watching or why or how it made each girl feel.

I am 46 and I still can’t stand to watch physical “romantic” contact on TV / movies. And I’m not even talking about porn. I don’t know what I would have done in Jenna’s place in 3rd grade, but had I stayed, it would only have been because I was afraid. Afraid of being found out and blamed, and afraid of being ostracised and bullied (I had a neighbor “friend” who would regularly punch me if I disagreed with her). Leaving was the right thing to do. If it led to the other kids being found out, well, wasn’t risk-taking the whole point? They got their thrill, and then they got the natural consequence. I fail to see how Jenna is the problem here. I don’t know if what ensued was bullying or not; I think we overuse that term, but I wasn’t there. I spent much of my school career being marginalized and bullied, so that probably would not have fazed me.

. . . I’m not all that invested in the whole “warren” business here.

But I’ll point out that I’m saddened and surprised and appalled that our country keeps letting low-end, quasi-ponr on the public channels.

And the Current Administration wants soft-core on prime time!

Go figure! ($$$$)

Where’s the common good and just general public decency toward each other?

@Warren–Unless every girl in grade three was at the sleepover where the Playboy channel incident happened, then yeah, I think there was some bullying happening. If it was just the sleepover guests who’d shunned Jenna, that would have been bad enough, but they obviously told others, and coerced THEM into shunning Jenna as well. Not all bullying is physical, and often, girls hurl vicious insults and rumours, rather than fists or stones.

As for the “sticks and stones” argument, whoever came up with that never got shunned by everyone in grade three for not wanting to watch porn, or by everyone in grade six for being a “lesbian” (actually happened to me; I just happened to spend most of my recess times with my best friend; another outcast, who was pretty much the only person who wasn’t completely horrible to me). That person has probably also never had to deal with “friends” alternately insulting, excluding, extorting, and straight-up STEALING from them, and acting friendly, in order to manipulate them into doing what they want (also actually happened, and it took my parents, the teacher, and the principal at least a month to rectify things).

, I know you’ll probably say something about how I’m the only one to experience this (or, alternatively, that I’m NOT the only one, and I should “get over it”), or that I must have done something to bring it on, or whatever. Well, I am over it, because I’m an adult, but that doesn’t mean I’ve forgotten about it. Even if this was somehow my fault, that’s not the point–the point is, that it’s entirely possible to hurt or bully someone, without laying a finger on them.

P.S., I forgot to mention, about the Playboy channel incident itself, one shortcoming of eight-year-olds is the fact that they’re still in what Jean Piaget refers to as the “concrete-operational” stage, where they think in very literal, black-and-white terms. So, their interpretation of Jenna leaving the sleepover, and then the host child (and possibly the other guests) getting in trouble would have likely been, “Jenna ratted us out.” However, as I’ve tried to explain, the truth could have been more complicated. For all we know, Jenna could have been gently (or not-so-gently) prodded into telling by her parents. Maybe Jenna actually requested that her parents not contact the host parents about this, but they did anyway. In fact, maybe the host parents even up to see what was happening, and caught the kids in the act, not because of Jenna expressing a wish not to watch porn, but because they were awakened by the teasing that ensued (if it ensued). However, most young kids don’t register all that. Instead, they think, “Jenna didn’t want to watch Playboy, Jenna called her parents and asked to be picked up from the sleepover, and I got in trouble. Therefore, Jenna ratted me out, and she’s not my friend.” So, I’m not saying that everyone in the “Jenna deserved what she got” camp is definitely wrong, because for all anyone knows, Jenna might come back and say that yes, she did tell on her friends and try to get them in trouble, but what I am saying is, I think the reason why so many people are so quick to judge her is because they’re thinking only in absolutes; as in, if Jenna felt uncomfortable watching pornography, then she MUST have maliciously told on the ones who were watching it, and therefore, she deserved to be hung without a trial (or, the eight-year-old girl equivalent thereof; i.e. mass shunning).

I take issue to some degree with the “sleepovers aren’t necessary” mentality. Of course, they’re not necessary in the literal sense like food and water, but they are an important rite of passage and opportunity to build independence and gain experience while not under the watchful eyes of one’s parents. . . . Plus they’re lots of fun. If kids don’t have sleepovers, when do they get to experience being away from home alone? Camp? I would think that might be unnecessarily difficult for a kid who’s never had a sleepover. . . . College?

I was the kid who was afraid to spend the night at my friends’ houses until I was probably 10 or 11 years old and it embarrassed the heck out of me. Overcoming that fear was a big deal, and I hate to think of the fun I’d have missed out on if I hadn’t.

My younger daughter (now 10) struggled a bit in the same way (although not as much as I did), as did one of her best buds, who bailed out a couple of times at our house. We’ve had a revolving door this summer with extra kids at our house and ours at their friends’ places. Feels right to me.

“If my son has showne the past two weekends that he is cranky and badly-behaved and homework wasn’t getting done and he was generally being a pain in the neck way more than usual after sleep overs then yes he can’t have one this time.”

But that is absolutely no what we are talking about. These children have never been on a sleepover so there is no “shown to be tired” about any of it.

And, while I am generally in favor of considering convenience in parenting decisions, it seems wrong to ban a desired activity from ever happening for no reason other than my own convenience. If my kid was difficult after sleepovers, we wouldn’t have done them nearly as often as we did. However, she still would have been allowed to go occasionally because it isn’t all about me either. For example, we wouldn’t have done sleepovers every weekend, but I wouldn’t have said no to her BFFs birthday parties for no reason other than it would have inconvenienced me the next day.

I disagree that parents should feel obligated to give their kids every experience possible no matter how inconvenient.

I say that as a mom who is very into giving my kids experiences. There aren’t many things my kids haven’t done or will not eventually do.

But. Let’s take friend birthday parties for example. I don’t do them. Never have, never want to. (Possibly they will talk me into it someday, but it isn’t in my plans.) I could give you a long list of reasons why I don’t want to. All of them relating to my personal comfort, convenience, and interests. But, “I don’t want to” is good enough. It’s my choice.

Interesting conversation. I didn’t have any “wild” sleepovers until I was a teen, but somehow I survived.

As far as my one and only child, he’s 9 and refuses to sleep in a house unless I am with him, so that pretty much puts an end to all sleepovers. However, parent-child sleepovers are fairly common in my community and child-only sleepovers don’t happen much, although as the kids get older, that might change.

My son had a sleepover for his 8th birthday. All the kids (there were five of them) were between the ages of 6 and 9. And, “gasp,” it was co-ed. I slept downstairs with the kids (because of my son’s inability to sleep in a room without a parent present) and the only problem I had was with two girls who decided to write in their journals in the middle of the night and were being noisy.

Captain America raises a great point. Soft-core porn during primetime is an outrage. We should only allow hardcore during primetime; anything else is sissy half-way thinking.

Anyway, a friend whose father was away for the weekend on business prevailed upon his mother to order Playboy for the night and have a bunch of us over. One friend came to the door, said “I feel like this is wrong,” and left. We didn’t have any problem with him. Meanwhile, the rest of us watched Playboy with my friend’s mom all night, which meant that we couldn’t make vulgar comments, etc. It was great.

“But. Let’s take friend birthday parties for example. I don’t do them. Never have, never want to. (Possibly they will talk me into it someday, but it isn’t in my plans.) I could give you a long list of reasons why I don’t want to. All of them relating to my personal comfort, convenience, and interests. But, “I don’t want to” is good enough. It’s my choice.”

If one accepts the notion (and I don’t know whether SKL, whose comment I’ve lifted, does) that sleepovers are beneficial–kids gain independence, learn to interact with other families, build relationships with their friends, etc.–how does this differ from a parent who won’t let her kid cross the street because it’s her choice and she has her reasons “relating to [her] personal comfort, convenience, and interests”?

Parental convenience seems to me a perfectly valid consideration on an event by event basis but I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where it’s sufficient to justify depriving a kid entirely of an important formative experience.

@Natalie
I realize that. I interpreted SKL’s comment as acknowledging at least some benefit to the experience, although my post didn’t express that very well . . . I shouldn’t try to do 6 things at once.

Puzzled…how old were you and your friends when his mom ordered Playboy for the night?

You have no idea how furious I would be if I learned that a parent rented porn for my son and his friends. Now, if someone would explain to me what Playboy porn entails, that could be helpful. I don’t know if it shows the real nitty-gritty or if it is a bunch of airbrushed girls talking about how they like popsicles and world peace. Jenna only referred to “the porn channel that the host girl’s dad subscribed to.” That could be soft porn or it could be hard core.

Either way, other adults have no business introducing my kids to porn. Period. Even if the kids will be “okay.” Even if the kids enjoyed it. Even if the kids asked for it. Even if the other parents said it was okay. Some things are simply wrong. That’s a big one.

If my kid encountered porn at another house (found a magazine, looked it up online), that is one thing. A adult showing it to kids?? Uh…NO.

Porn is so easily available–anytime of day or night–and can be viewed so privately, nobody needs to encourage that. Porn can be harmless and it can be dangerous. Just like some kids can handle an hour of videogames a day and some can’t stop until they need to go to school tomorrow…porn can have that effect. Who in their right mind would deliberately mess with kids like that?

Free Range does not mean nothing matters.

I’m sure there are good things about birthday parties, too, but that doesn’t mean I have to host one.

I can easily think of a long list of things that are good for kids, but lots of parents (doubtless many of you) choose not to do them, even though you know they are good for kids.

– Taking them weekly to a house of worship that reflects your beliefs
– Taking them to a house of worship that doesn’t reflect your beliefs
– Taking them on an international trip (as often as possible)
– Having them learn foreign languages from a native speaker
– Music lessons
– Girl/Boy Scouts (I don’t do this either)
– Giving them one or more siblings
– Letting them take care of animals and younger children
– Bla bla bla! Obviously this could go on all day.

Each parent has to pick and choose, because even if we wanted to do it all, we couldn’t. And our kids would (will) still be OK.

P.S., Warren, you say you don’t like worst-first thinking, but when you automatically jump to the conclusion of “Jenna deliberately and maliciously ratted out her friends so they’d get in trouble for watching Playboy,” then that falls under the definition of “worst-first” as well.

@SKL
Are you really that stupid? I thought you were somewhat educated. Equating reporting of molestation to ratting on friends for watching TV they are not supposed to? What planet are you from? Moron does not even come close.

@Natalie
I am not sick of the word bullying. It is a fine word. Your definition of it is beyond sickening. Because of what you consider to be bullying, only insults those who have been actually bullied. What you are doing is akin to saying those with a common cold are the same as those with cancer.

@Emily
“Jenna deliberately and maliciously ratted out her friends so they’d get in trouble for watching Playboy” Check my posts little lady, I never once said that. Others may have, but I did not. I never once spoke to Jenna’s motives for ratting out the others, just that she did. As a result the others decided to shun, not be friends with or whatever you want to call it. That in response to being informed on, it is a reasonable reaction.
If you informed on coworkers, that resulted in suspension or whatever, I promise you that you would not be the most popular person at work. AND THAT IS NOT BULLYING.

You show me someone that has never relied on another to keep something quiet, and I will show you a liar.

I don’t agree that “just about every person they will ever meet” has had sleepovers (depending on the definition) and friend birthday parties. (When I say friend birthday parties, I mean a scheduled party where you invite the kid’s friends.)

I do not agree that there’s a hole left by not having a friend birthday party. Nobody in my family ever had one, and I don’t feel any holes, never have, and I’ve never heard that any of my siblings did. My mom’s family didn’t celebrate birthdays at all (Jehovah’s Witnesses) and neither do a lot of people.

What I do is get my kids excited about what I am willing to do – take them somewhere fun as a family, buy presents, have a cake, let them choose a restaurant for dinner, etc.

They know that they have lots of experiences that other kids don’t. It evens out. Learning that is also important as kids grow up.

It’s like I tell them (and you probably do similar), that all families are built differently. Some kids have a dad, they don’t; they have a sister, many of their friends don’t; and so on.

I really hate to hear the word “selfish” used in connection with these sorts of parenting decisions. We’re not talking about things that kids “need,” we’re talking about ways our kids can be indulged. I indulge my kids all sorts of ways, but they are not entitled to every indulgence they see around them.

I would never say you were selfish for not providing your daughter with a sibling, even though having a sibling would be good for her in all kinds of ways. Selfish is reserved for things like not making sure a kid has enough calories or goes to school because the parent is too busy getting drunk, high, or laid.

Marie – hard to remember, but I’m going to say 16. Also, in those days, porn wasn’t so available. This was before the internet. Playboy is pretty soft-core. I remember interviews with actresses, a movie (with a plot) in which sex featured prominently – but interestingly enough, the actors and actresses just happened to have their arms blocking the ‘sensitive’ area all the time, game shows where a guy has to answer questions while getting a lap dance, etc. In retrospect (and when I briefly subscribed to the channel last year) it’s all pretty innocent, but it seems different as a teenager.

Not saying I’d do the same, and certainly not today, but you can look at who attended and you’d be pretty hard-pressed to say that some sort of damage was done to us. Compared to our other sleepovers, we probably saved our eyesight since we weren’t squinting and trying to see scrambled pictures.

@Warren:

1. Please don’t call me “little lady.” It’s disrespectful.

2. Just because you didn’t use the same words I did (“Jenna maliciously told on her friends, because she wanted to get them in trouble”), doesn’t mean that you don’t agree with the “Jenna deserved what she got” sentiment. You said as much, just not in the same words, so don’t split hairs.

3. We don’t even know that Jenna meant to “inform” on her friends. All we know is that she called her parents to ask for a ride home from the sleepover, because she wanted to leave. That might have been all she told them of her own volition. How the rest of the truth came out, and how her parents reacted, is something that only Jenna knows. The “nuclear reaction” might not have even been from Jenna’s parents; but rather, from the host parents, possibly out of embarrassment from another family finding out that they even HAD the Playboy channel in the first place. So, if that was the case, I don’t think it’s fair to pin all the blame on an eight-year-old girl for wanting to leave a situation where she felt uncomfortable because the other kids were watching porn. It seems pretty unfair to me–Jenna was the only one who was behaving appropriately at the sleepover, and yet, she got “punished” by losing all of her friends for an entire school year.

4. Warren, what if it was one of your kids, who asked to be picked up from a sleepover because the other kids were watching porn, or raiding the liquor cabinet, or being mean to another party guest, and speaking up against this behaviour didn’t work? You’d probably ask why they wanted to be picked up, right? Well, if they told you, would you brand them as a “tattletale,” or be proud of them for not participating in behaviour that was wrong, or felt wrong to them? Or, what if the sleepover was at your house, and some of the guests started, say, playing soccer in the house, your kids told them to stop, and then told you when they wouldn’t? Again–would you condone the other kids shunning yours, or would you be proud of them for speaking up?

5. Just so we’re clear, I’m very pro-sleepover; however, I think parents should make a deal with their kids that they’ll pick them up if they feel uncomfortable. Usually, when kids take their parents up on that, it’s for homesickness, etc., and they usually need it less and less as they get older, and attend more sleepovers. Sometimes, even knowing that they can come home at any time, gives kids the security they need to go to a sleepover in the first place. It also sets a good precedent for when the teenage parties start.

Emily,
I called you little lady, because of your little bubble you wish live in.

I never once spoke to Jenna’s motives for ratting on her friends. I stated that she told on the other girls, they got in trouble, and because of that shunned the rat. It is not bullying, it is a perfectly normal reaction.

And again watching sex on a dang TV, is not a health risk like 8 yr olds drinking booze, or smoking, or someone getting injured. You are comparing apples to turnips. You are comparing a relatively minor rule break with actual risky behaviour. It is not the same, not even close.

All of you need to set aside your own prudish sexual hangups, and stop transfering them onto 8yr olds. 8 yr olds were not tryin to watch porn, so they could get their sexual urges satisfied. Turning that channel on, was no different than doing anything else they were told not to do.

As for my kids Emily, they have a helluvalot more integrity than Jenna or most of you. They would have left the room, done their own thing, and not ratted out the group, for a minor rule infraction like that. Of course if there were risks involved they would seek adult help, but they were not raised to be squeelers.
Emily there is a huge difference between not participating in activities you find uncomfortable, or questionable and ratting out the group.

Everybody at some point relies on someone to remain loyal, and keep confidence. From you having someone tell someone else you are not there, to having a coworker cover for you to whatever.

I have reread Jenna’s original post over again. And she strikes me as someone that wasn’t in the inner circle of the group to begin with. And her crying victim of being shunned, and all tells me she was a tattletale type of kid from the start.

If people don’t want to allow sleepovers who care, their kids their choice, for whatever reason I don’t care, BUT don’t tell me that I am wrong and try and voice ur choices on me, and be prepared that if you act judgemental and accuse me and my family of offences that you think might happen even though you have no proof or reason, to deal with the fact that I will tell you to go and,well, f yourself….

@Warren–For the last time, we don’t know that Jenna intended to “rat out” the other kids. We know that she called her parents because she wanted to leave the sleepover, because she felt uncomfortable. Since it was late at night, they probably asked why, which is reasonable. I’m sure you’d do the same thing in that situation, right? You’d probably pick up your kid from the sleepover, and ask what precipitated that call–not to raise a ruckus to the other parent, but to figure out what’s wrong in order to comfort your own kid. For all we know, Jenna never knew that the conversation would go further than that, but it did. As for my “prudish sexual hangups,” I was just re-iterating what Jenna said–that the other sleepover guests wanted to watch the Playboy channel, which is pornography; just like I’d use the terms “ESPN” and “sports” interchangeably, because the ESPN channel features sports. As for “leaving the room,” maybe the “sleepover area” was just that one room, with the TV in it, and leaving wasn’t an option; at least not without waking someone up, or breaking another rule. Maybe the other girls tried to stop Jenna from leaving, either with words, or by actually barricading her in the room. We don’t know for sure, but it could happen–in fact, only Jenna knows why she didn’t/couldn’t leave the room, so I’m going to wait until she fills us in. I’ve been in similar situations before, at school and at summer camp, and walked away from the group to do my own thing, only to be followed by the other kids, or reprimanded by adults for not being with the group. Even in more “understanding” situations like summer camp, often, something would happen (everything from casual teasing, up to and including property damage and sexual harassment), one of my counsellors would ask what was wrong, I’d say I didn’t want to talk about it, but then they’d gently get me to tell them, because otherwise, they “couldn’t make it better.” Sometimes they could, but other times, they’d talk to the group, and I’d get labelled a “rat” or a “suck-up” for being justifiably upset about being mocked, or mooned, or screamed at, or having the mustard bottle whipped at my head in the dining hall, or being forced to watch my cabin mates stick my clarinet inside very rude parts of their bodies, and then photograph the evidence using MY disposable camera.

I guess what I’m saying is, often, these situations are lose-lose. If the target doesn’t speak up, then everything stays the same, but if he or she DOES speak up, then the well-meaning adults talk to the perpetrators, who say all the right things to the adult, but then act even worse towards the target when the adult is out of range.

Emily,

For the last time, and I will go slow to allow you to follow along.
I do not care about Jenna’s motives for ratting out the girls, or her sensitivities or if cheese gives her the runs. I do not care if she freely ratted them out, or only did it under torture, it does not matter. The other girls got in trouble as a result of Jenna’s squeeling on them. The girls have the right to be pissed off and have the right to shun her.
Emily, have you been able to follow along so far?

Being mad at someone for informing on you is valid. Not wanting to be their friend, and avoiding them is valid. NOT BULLYING.

You still with me so far?

As for your clarinet, mustard bottle and all the other oh so horrible things that happened to you……….grow up, get over it and stop whining.

@Uly
Got something civil for you, but that needs to be done in person.

Sorry about the long off topic

Brooke,
Your words were very supportive, so I’ve been trying to figure out why it bothers me that you objected to my saying that “I made only a small mistake.” I know this standard objection is well intentioned.

The answer hit me as my husband was reading Little Red Riding Hood to our daughter. Red was warned about the wolf. Yet she was in the bad situation of being lost, and her only offer of help was the wolf. She took a chance on him. Other versions have other variations of making a little mistake she was warned about. But none of the current versions seem to imply fault in that mistake. Red did some little thing, her danger sensor didn’t trigger and she was deceived by a cunning predator. Frustratingly even when she begins to see something is wrong, she doesn’t figure out how bad it is fast enough. But seemingly to make it clear that Red isn’t to blame, grandma doesn’t fare any better, and often much worse. They were both simply lucky the woodsman came. And I think that is a pretty standard interpretation.

My story isn’t so different. I was under firm instructions not to tell ANY caller that I was home alone, for my safety. So I didn’t tell my uncle on the numerous occasions when he called. That is until one day I heard a suspicious and frightening noise, and told him, begging him to call 911 if I didn’t come right back or if he heard anything. It was just one small mistake, a chance many others might have taken. Hearing what he wanted to know, he used his key and walked right in. I was actually relieved to see him. The shock and relief cycle, overwhelmed the tickling sense that something was seriously wrong. Just as it took Red until “all the better to eat you with” to know she was in trouble, it wasn’t until his intentions were open that I recognized my uncle as a predator. That thought came with a drive to resist. Resistance was nothing school even brushed on in the “bad touch” lecture. That instinct was pure little red riding hood. And why not? That allegory of victimization and what may come of it/ what to do, seem to have always been the point of Little Red Riding Hood. Some old versions involve her tricked into bed, and even out of her clothing!

I grew up largely in a cut from the wolf’s belly world, and that is a fitting allegory for my mental plunge into darkness and frightening but worth-wild extrication.

Interestingly the story seems to vary with attitudes toward victims. Wikipedia discusses a 17th century version which paints Red as outright blame worthy, ends with her death, and is followed by a 17th century lecture on stranger danger!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Riding_Hood

I love that some versions had Red cunningly escaping with no help, a worthy tale of Resistance. I’d love to bring that back and to give the last R, report, a well deserved flourish with a slightly injured Red seeking out the wood cutter and bringing him back to cut granny free.

@Warren–I am over what happened at camp, and I wasn’t whining, I was just recounting an incident where either telling OR not telling would have resulted in more bullying, but telling would at least alert someone to the problem, who could MAYBE help me. I went to that camp for seven years, but the bullying that happened that year was (pretty much) a one-off thing. That was my second-last year there (L.I.T., age fifteen, and I thought long and hard before returning the following year for C.I.T., when things were mostly much better). I’m just saying that blaming the victim isn’t always the way to go–I didn’t want to get anyone in trouble; I just wanted the bullying to stop, and I tried repeatedly to resolve it myself, without success. I’m also over the bullying that happened in school, and I’m Facebook friends with several of my former tormentors.

As for Jenna, again, we don’t even know her. We don’t know what happened that night, and even if she was a “tattletale” kind of kid at the age of eight, she might not be now. It’s her choice not to allow her kids to have sleepovers, and we don’t have to agree with it, and honestly, we’ve had some much worse people on here. Remember the woman who wouldn’t let her kids swim without lifejackets, or even bathe alone? Compared to that, not allowing sleepovers is pretty minor.

Emily,
Honestly, I don’t understand what you think you’re going to accomplish here.

@Natalie
LMAO at your overuse of the bullying card. The sign of a weak person, who thinks because someone is strong willed, and outspoken that they are bullies.

Calling a spade a spade, or in this case an idiot an idiot, is not bullying.

Take a deep breath, get off your high horse and try to understand simple english and logic.

Not liking someone and shunning them because they have wronged you is not bullying. Friends choosing to be loyal to one over another is not bullying. If they had no cause to shun Jenna then yes you could make a case for bullying. But they did have cause to shun her……..she ratted them out. Whether she did it on purpose or not does not matter to kids that age. You are label natural behaviour as bullying.
You may enjoy playing victim because your feelings were hurt or whatever, but that is a horrible lesson to teach.

As for your last paragraph, again why do you bother, your personal opinion of me is meaningless, sort of like that white stuff that collects at the corner of your mouth when you are hot and thirsty. Yes your opinion of me means nothing to me. I only value the opinions of people I respect, and you are nowhere near being on that list.

Natalie, I’m sure I’ve done both. But it seems the conversation is more productive if we say “I do __ because __ (positive reason)” vs. “you are selfish (or other judgmental term) if you ___.”

Natalie, I don’t think parents need to be put on the defensive in order to reconsider parenting choices. New information goes a long way for someone who actually cares about her kids.

>>Not liking someone and shunning them because they have wronged you is not bullying. Friends choosing to be loyal to one over another is not bullying. If they had no cause to shun Jenna then yes you could make a case for bullying.<<

The sleepover guests shunned Jenna over the Playboy channel incident. That's sort of understandable, although for an entire school year seems excessive. However, the line where it crosses into bullying, is when they recruited ALL THE GIRLS IN GRADE THREE to join in the shunning, so that Jenna had no friends at all, for an entire school year. I think that's pretty disgusting. There really should have been at least one or two "renegade" decent kids in the bunch, who might have said something like, "So what? Jenna didn't do anything to ME, and I wasn't even there, so this should be between you and her. Hey, Jenna, let's go play four-square." I know life isn't an after-school special, but that's probably how I would have reacted at that age.

Skl
Yeah, defend implies attack. Parents shouldn’t be attacked. Let’s try this. When I have to explain why I do what I do, I better understand myself, my motivations, and the effect of the parenting choice in question. It could cause me to reconsider things, all of which I think is good.
Take walking home from the bus stop. I really want my daughter to be ready to do that (she’ll be in first grade). She’s eager to be a latch key kid, and I’m eager for her to be the same. i wont have to abandon things mid-experiment to rush to the bus stop. She’ll be home alone for 10-15 min tops.
We’ve been practicing street crossing for a while. My husband isn’t thrilled about this, and wants to wait. Not about being home alone, but walking home alone. She’s got her head in the clouds. She still impulsively darts out into the street, and taking into consideration the time of day and route she walks, we might have to delay it. We’ve been discussing it on and off and I realized that he was right. And it’s not the end of the world to try it 6 weeks or 6 months later.

Hah.
We’re having hair issues. My daughter can’t get all the tangles out yet. But she does some, and she can do a ponytail. We’re getting there!

The Warrens of the world are too busy beating their chests on a hilltop to dispense parental advice. Throw him a banana.

@Warren–That’s a pretty big assumption. I wouldn’t automatically make the leap from “left a sleepover where pornography was being watched,” to “not likeable.”

>>Either Jenna is way over exxagerating the whole event, or one 8 yr old has the powers of persuassion the likes of Martin Luther King, or Jim Jones.<<

Not one single eight-year-old girl, but a "core group" of popular, mean girls? Yeah, I'd believe it.

But the important question is: What motivates adults to argue for days over what might have happened decades ago among a group of third-graders whom they don’t even know?

@Warren–I’m not basing my thoughts on one thing that happened at summer camp; but rather, from many years in the public school system, either as a target of bullying, or as a witness. Maybe Jenna was a snitch–maybe she had a pattern of hostile behaviour that brought on the shunning. However, we don’t know for sure. I don’t know for sure that the sleepover guests organized the entire grade three class in shunning Jenna, but it can still happen. I remember that the girls in my class were already quite well-versed in gossip, rumour spreading, and other forms of relational aggression by grade five, so grade three really doesn’t seem like much of a stretch–I’m sure it had started by then; I just wasn’t privy to it.

And the reason I was unpopular had nothing to do with ratting people out etc. I stood out in the Lutheran school because I was the youngest, “four-eyes,” introverted, the acer, working-class, and the only one with a working mom and a houseful of siblings. My classmates and I basically had nothing in common. I didn’t care much because I didn’t have a big need for school friends. But yeah, it stung sometimes. So did a lot of things that I got over.

I know a couple who have a passel of boys. Once a year they have the boys invite some friends over, and deliberately overdose them on junk food, games, and PG/PG13 movies, with the challenge to stay up all night. (When they inevitably don’t make it through the night they crash in heaps of blankets on the living room floor.) That’s once a year. The boys are great kids with well-balanced lives, and their parents are awesome parents.

@really bad mum
I don’t think she’s responding because she’s got something better to do. (And what does that say about the rest of us?)
Here’s the deal. If she was ostracized by all the girls in the grade as a result of getting a few girls (intentionally or not) in trouble, yes. That’s bullying. If you look up the definition of bullying (I copy/pasted the first one that came up when googling in an earlier post, you’re welcome to find another that suits you), you’ll find that it includes intimidation of the non-physical kind. Bullying isnt just some cliche of, “give me your lunch money or I’ll punch you,” which Warren is either incapable of, or just doesn’t want to understand.
Now, if your argument is that all that happened is she told on her friends and they stopped speaking to her, therefore, not bullying, then I agree. That’s not bullying.
In which case, we’re not arguing on the definition of bullying but on what happened to Jenna 25 yrs ago, based on whether or not we want to take what she’s written at face value.
I’m taking what she wrote at face value. You’re not. But that doesn’t mean we disagree on what bullying is, it means we disagree on what happened to her.

Did Jenna say she was bullied? That would seem pertinent.

To me, bullying implies that you’re trying to get someone to do something they don’t want to do. Ignoring, avoiding, or talking behind a person’s back would not be bullying in my opinion. Now if they intimidated other kids into avoiding her, those other kids might have been bullied. But again, I wasn’t there. I don’t know.

The fact is that sometimes doing the right thing is uncomfortable and has long-term consequences. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t the right thing to do.

Hopefully Jenna’s mom sat her down for a talk about what a “real friend” is, which most of her classmates obviously weren’t before or after the porn incident. My mom always used to say that you can count your true friends on the fingers of one hand. Useful to know in cases like Jenna’s.

As for Warren, you have no standing when it comes to other people over-using labels and name-calling. Ahem.

@Natalie I agree with what you are saying, and after going back and reading the post about 3 times seeing if I missed something I still am confused. As to saying she might be too busy to reply I was trying to convey that there are many reasons she hasn’t replied or posted again, but thought typing 2 would get the point across. It doesn’t say anything about the rest of us I can got weeks without coming in this site or even the computer, but then get drawn into a conversation and well let’s just say weet-bix and vegemite toast end up being considered suitable dinner choices…
As to the bulling I was pointing out that there was some confusion over things it was only the girls in her grade according to the post, not the whole grade if boys and girls, and I was trying to say that things seem so miuch more terrible then they are to an 8/9 year old, and that all the reactions in her story seem to be normal to the actions. They where kids so they acted like kids, to ban sleep overs of one friend is ridiculous I can understand her banning group sleepovers but she needs to teach her kids that if these things happen there are many ways to deal with it instead of waiting till 2am then dobbing…
P.s where shall I send 9 year old( he driving me nuts lol)

@Natalie
Thank you for proving that you do not have anything of value to add, and are just trying to provoke responses. Your most recent post is proof of this.

You know as fun as it can be at times, it can be really disappointing playing with your wee little mind. I always seem to over estimate you intellect.

‘Over estimate you intellect.’

Really shouldn’t, but please, Warren, if you’re going to throw around ridiculous insults, at least try to get the spelling and grammar right. That would be,

‘Overestimate your intellect’.

Thank you, once again, for the comedic relief.

“wee little . . .” – anyone get the feeling Warren is overcompensating for some . . . shortcoming? I dunno.

RBM, it gets difficult to take the high road after a certain number of crude insults. We all know that no matter how politely we say something, if it doesn’t agree with Warren’s views, he’s going to go on one of his foul and personal rants. We have to think twice before we state our opinion because we might not always have an appetite to be verbally attacked. And if we respond to his attacks, at times he even pushes it to the point of threats. Personally I’m sick of it. I want to be able to say what I think about a topic without being verbally abused by some guy on a site he doesn’t even own.

Well OK, fair enough, he called me stupid, moron, hypocrite, and a few other things in this very thread. I proceeded to politely side with his substantive points about bullying. But I can certainly understand why people are responding as they are. He does this every day. He’s trying to intimidate people to keep quiet when they disagree with him. Nobody else is doing that. Everyone here would happily welcome any post by him that was polite.

I understand what you are saying.. But we are adults and we are trying to get people to take us seriously which they won’t if all we do on the site is abuse each other maybe if when he does it people say ok that’s ur opinion on that but I agree with this and I it continues ignore him completely, as he should if someone does it to him which I have seen here many times, he won’t keep doing it. Although sometimes I’m glad he does, because it was what I was thinking but didn’t post. Lol

Hmm, looks like my previous response didn’t actually get lost, it just cut in line…. weird. Looks like I enjoy repeating myself over and over again LOLOLOL,

I really didn’t mean to call Natalie anything. Her previous post seem to indicate she missed being called out, and I just didn’t want to disappoint her. Just trying to be nice.

@SKL
One person’s insult is another’s observations.

I’m only somewhat free range, but I intentionally sought out one of the older posts on sleepovers a couple weeks ago because my oldest had been invited to go camping with his best friend for a week. Not quite a sleepover, but I figured it would be close enough. What a mistake! I think the comments on that post were more alarming than anything I’d imagined!

But, then I reminded myself that this was my child in the company of One other friend, who he has known for Years and several trusted adults we have also known for years. I worried and obsessed for almost 24 hours, but I managed to let him go, and he had a Wonderful time!

I had a rotten time at several sleepovers (horror movies that frightened me; pranks that made me uncomfortable; gossip that got out of hand), and a great time at many others.

I think the key is to ask questions, know what kind of supervision will be going on, and make sure that your child has an, “Easy out,” if he/she wants to come home-eg call and ask how kitty is doing and we’ll know that means you need an excuse to come home,and we’ll come right up with one.

Maybe it was the lack of the internet, but I know my parents never would have dreamed up half the shenanigans that went on at some of the sleepovers I went. to.
On the other hand, I also know that such things would be extremely unlikely in my own circle where the parenting tilts toward the hyper involved (not always a bad thing)! My pals typically fb half the sleep over-EG “Five girls settled in to watch Princess Bride. Just got done with makeovers!”

Seriously-am I the only one who gets fb sleepover play by play? You definitely know what they’re up to!