Arrested for Trusting The World & Their 9-Year-Old

I think it’s going to be on the cops to explain exactly what the “endangerment” was. Had there been a rash of kidnappings in the area? Was there a specific known person on the prowl? Is there some published law for minimum age children can be left alone?

The parents can come armed with the statistics. The cops are going to have to prove their case.

While I understand Kenny’s sentiment, I really do, and agree with it too, I also have a friend who is having to go through a court case and DCF investigation for a similar incident (except that she was still nearby her car even!) and I can tell you that the fear and powerlessness she is feeling right now is awful. Right now, no matter the actual outcome of the investigations, it feels like the system has won, because her fear won’t go away any time soon.

9 year olds are completely capable of sitting in the car with a sleeping 6 yr old! people are ridiculous now days. unless the kids were starving and sweating profusely-whoever called th cops should have stayed the heck out of it. that is not neglect. plus the kid had a cell phone to use and probably could have handled rolling up the windows if needed. i see nothing wrong with it. this country is falling apart- what happened to all of us?!
there are kids that are truly getting abused but the cops are too busy wasting their energy and resources on crap like this.

Andrea,

You wrote: “With any luck, a law will be established so that parents have a clear understanding of what they can and can not do.”

I disagree completely with this. I understand where you’re coming from, but I respectfully disagree.

What we need is for parents to gauge intelligently what their children are and are not capable of, and make wise choices based on their intimate knowledge of their own children. You know… to be parents. If, as you desire, a law were passed that made it hard-and-fast that a child under xx years of age could not be left alone in a car, then in a country this large with so many idiot parents, it would only be a matter of a short time before some child one month older than the law suffocated or kill someone driving off in the car. The parents would consider the law to be a bright line and once their kid passed that birthday all caution would be thrown to the winds.

No… sorry. I disagree. What we should do is encourage parents to be parents. Not pass more and more laws abdicating responsibility for our children to the state. That’s how we’re getting further INTO this mess.

Ann- How is there anything wrong with that scenario? A busy parking lot- lots of safe, normal adults to hear a child scream that a stranger is hurting her. Windows down- but probably easy to roll right back up in case of danger and definitely the way to avoid suffocation. They didn’t leave them for 750,000 years or even long enough to get overheated. How is that negligent? What do you propose CPS do? Put them under regular observation for a 30 minute perceived lapse in judgment, while sniffing around for more ‘mistakes’? I know! Take their kids away and put them into an already over-crowded foster care system, tearing apart their family and traumatizing the kids for life. Let’s keep future psychologists in business!

Personally, I (obviously) see nothing wrong with the picture here, and I have NO desire to have that much government interference in my or anyone else’s family life.

This is ridiculous. I’m not worried about child molesters, I’m worried about people like Ann and those cops, people who are so paranoid that they end up teaching their children to be totally dependent on them and to utterly lack self-reliance. It’s because of people like them that college students have their parents talk to their professors for them. It’s twisted. They’re trying to criminalize the qualities which make someone a good parent. It makes you want to move to some other, saner country.

We both went in to the pharmacy because the prescription was in my name but my partner was paying for it. I suppose I could have written him a note, or called to say my partner would be picking it up for me, but we didn’t think of that before we left.

I’m not sure exactly why it was just my partner arrested. Maybe they went by whose car it was? Or who was driving? I have a non-driver’s ID and don’t drive, and it wasn’t legally my car.

Just yesterday, I left my 9- and 5-year-old boys in the car, windows rolled down, in their wet bathing suits so I could run into the library and pick up some manga for the 9-year-old… I am frankly scared to do it again after reading this post, and not because I worry that the boys will be kidnapped.
I agree with Corey about letting parents be the judge of how well-prepared their kids are to be left alone, and I think that the last thing we need is a law dictating an appropriate age.
At 8 years old, Ben Franklin was wandering the streets of Boston – at his father’s order – to try and figure out what he would do with his life; good thing nobody called the fuzz on him!

I’m just wondering what day this happened. That area of NY State recently had a fairly long ultra-hot-heat wave – temps were in the upper 90’s. The internal car temperature, even with windows cracked, can easily climb well into the 100’s. A dark colored car will get even hotter. Is it possible that this happened during the heat wave and that’s what the cop was really responding too? Even a responsible 9 year old might not realize how dangerous the heat could be to the sleeping 6 year old (in fact, she probably would think it would be more responsible to let the 6 year old continue sleeping). Just another take on the issue. If the weather is nice and cool, I can’t see anything wrong with letting the kids wait in the car. But during the hot summer, not so much.

Maybe it’s just the years of living in Phoenix but my first thought to this was “What were the temperatures outside?”. That’s a real endangerment issue and one that even most well meaning parents can miss. In Phoenix during the summer if you leave your child a car with no AC going (windows down or not) you should hope that someone alerts the authorities quickly because death really can happen fast in that situation from overheating. In places where it doesn’t reach 110+ during the summer it can still get hot enough (yes even with the windows down) to cause damage or death just depending on the outside temperature.

This is my prime fear, if you will, of implementing free range with my kids. That some over zealous person doesn’t see a 9 year old as capable enough to open a car door and exit if need be, or use the phone in case of emergency, or otherwise form a complete thought.

I’m very sorry this happened to them. What a nightmare

(shakes head)(bangs head on table)

Is there no other crime that police could be investigating?

Wendy,

Maybe you can answer something I’ve been wondering about for a while.

I recently read a great Gene Weingarten piece about babies who die of hypertermia because their parents had accidentally forgotten them in a hot car. It is a horrible way to die and the guilt these parents will suffer for the rest of their lives is unimaginable. I looked up the statistics on such cases and, thankfully, children dying from hypertermia in cars is still very rare. But one study did a break-down by age and I was stumped by the fact that a sizable percentage (something like 8 or 10 percent) were over the age of 6. Surely most children that age know when they are too hot and are capable of unbuckling their seatbelt, exiting the car and finding help? Or is it really possible for a school-age child, or even an adult, to just suffer heatstroke in their sleep and die without ever waking up?

One thing that I find galling is that cases such as this lead me to feel fear of government and of fellow citizens. I don’t really care about the particulars of this or any similar case, I don’t think that I, a reasonable and responsible adult, should have to make my decisions based on fear of government authorities rather than the risks inherent in the situation.

@Ender – Thank you for the LOL of the day!

@kcab – Exactly.

@Jen – absolutely, and I hope the woman who posted this reads your response.

To the woman who posted the story: You did nothing wrong. As far as your rights vs. CPS fears, I am told it takes a LOT for a child to be taken away. Please know you are a normal parent who knows what’s best for your child. I hope you gain the the confidence to stop second-guessing yourself (although were I in your shoes I would probably be very rattled). Your children were not in danger, and you made a choice in judgment that was, in my view (a parent of a 5 and 7 year old), a perfectly reasonable choice. Except maybe, shopping at Walmart, which I tend to avoid! ;-P (hee hee)

Me, I’m thinking more of us parents who love our children very much – and yes, who exhibit both common sense, and who can weigh each situation with regard to risk and likelihood, and who aren’t paranoid by default – need to stand up and support one another, and proceed with confidence.

I’d love an update as to how this “case” goes. My best wishes to you and your family.

I have for sure been known to leave my kids in the car while shopping – but only at their own request. Like The Parent said – her older kid wanted to read. I can understand that. And, at 9, in my book, that kid is old enough to take on some care for the younger sibling.

My kids are 12 and 9, and I’ve been having them co-baby-sit one another (so they need to work things out, not one pulling rank on the other) for years. I started almost four years ago, half an hour at a time, always minutes away, with phone contact. Rules. Lock the doors, don’t open them for anyone but me. If anyone calls, tell them I’m in the bathroom, etc. No eating of choke-able foods.

So, my kids were 9 and 6 at the time.

Also, I let me kids run amok. We have a big lane across the way, blackberries, and the neighbors have horses. My little one, now 9, loves to go talk to the horses through the fence.

Man, if things were back-when the way they are now, a whole generation of latch-key kids would have been in foster homes, and a whole generation of single, working moms would have been locked away!

Besides, I was raised in the outback – no running water, a pony to get around on. My radius of ramble by the time I was 7 or so was eight miles on pony-back, or three walking.

God, I don’t know who I would have become without those lawless days. (Okay, not all of it was good. But those part I just mentioned? Awesome!)

Best of luck in getting through this, The Parent. I hope the law of the land and the judgment of those in power falls on the right side of commonsense.

Of course your kids were safe. Don’t let anyone doubt you. Really.

peace, and gratitude,
-LaSara

Wow. Just wow. I don’t know WHY I am surprised, as I have been known to get dirty looks from “helpful” strangers when I leave my 9yo in the car (locked, with windows half down) to run into the coffee shop in my neighborhood – with friends sitting outside, and the car within sight the whole three minutes I have rto un in to pick up my coffee.

I think you did what you felt was best; whether any of us feel that, doesn’t matter. No harm, no foul. You were not careless or abusive. It was a judgment call. I agree with whoever said, Are you saying the cops don’t have anything better to do? Best of luck.

So if the kids are left alone inside the car, that’s endangerment, because of the risk of hyperthermia. If the kids are left alone outside the car, that’s endangerment, because of the risk of abduction.

The moral of the story: no kids should be left alone. Ever. Anywhere. For any reason. Even a 9-year-old. Even a 16-year-old. (Still a minor!)

@krolik Its actually pretty easy to get heatstroke without realizing it, especially for the young, the old, and the drunk. It does not sound like this was a huge risk on the day in question however.

@Ann A 9 year old is not a small child, she is a preteen. 6 is a schoolaged child, but it is at least within the realms of sanity to call a 6 year old a small child.

Michele S., at least for my state, that’s a RUNNING vehicle. “Knowing your laws” is a good idea. If the parent posted in this example was in my state, she would not have fallen under the “Not Even A Minute” site’s legal stipulations.

Oh and P.S. sometimes we have stupid laws. Still good to know them – because maybe we can work together to change them to make sense!

Things like this continue to disturb me. People will pass you on the street and never say hello or acknowledge your existence, but let your child get out of arms length and panic comes over their face and the look for the adult who should be monitoring this child. People want to act responsibly for other people’s children but the first response is always to call the police.as if arresting the parent will make the life of this child they are so concerned about better.

We need to work on society in general. If we were more communal we would be less likely to turn immediately to the police in these situations and we would have a safer environment in which to raise our children.

I am retired but once worked for CPS in another state. I would offer some advise and observations::
1. Lawyer up whenever an arrest is made or a petition is filed. You will be on an equal footing, feel less fearful, and have better access to poiice and cps reports/records.
2. I don’t know why the father was arrested and the mother not. Possible the police did not arrest the mother so they wouldn’t have to remove the kids. Not logical perhaps but avoids unnecessary and traumatic foster placements.
3. The children would most likely have been removed at the scene if the police felt both parents were unable to safely parent them. Much less likely to happen later..
4. I don’t know how specific or vague NY child endangerment laws are, This varies widely around the country but it is possible the police aren’t allowed much descretion when they see certain situations.

We elect people and then we and others lobby them to pass laws to protect children among other things.. Unfortunately as a society there is often not a lot of agreement on where the lines should be drawn and how tightly defined. Police and CPS are charged with enforcing laws that are passed even when there are alot of folks that disagree with those laws.

We are a nation of 300 million opinionated individuals each with our own deeply held values and ideas how the system should work. All laws are compromizes trying to find a middle and hopefully sensible ground. There is by it’s very nature a somewhat one size fits all.system. Especially after a couple decades of voters being uncomfortable with allowing judges and LEA very much descretion.

If you think the discussion is animated and sometimes arguementative here at Free Range Kids, you should hear the conversations in the cps junch rooms, on the cops coffee breaks, and when the judges get together for a drink after work. I promise you they don’t all agree either and at times discussions are intense. Mostly I found a lot of deeply caring but imperfect human beings doing these jobs as best they can under the laws enacted.in their state.

When I was 10, my mom had twins…they had issues & had to stay longer in the hospital than she did. I remember going with her to retrieve one of them–I sat in the car for what must’ve been close to an hour, in August…windows down, nothing for entertainment except the car owner’s manual in the glove box. And I rode home in the front seat, holding the new baby in my arms.

We’d have all been toast back in the 70’s, wouldn’t we.

To anyone wondering whether there was nothing better for the police to be doing: Yes, undoubtedly there was SOMETHING. They don’t necessarily get to make the call on whether or not they go to a call, though. If they get the call and are told to go, they go- and I suspect they’re especially likely to be sent out to investigate if a situation involves children.

If a child really was in danger, we’d be pretty pissed off if the cops didn’t show up because something “more important” came up.

Last summer I visited the L.A. area with my family. One afternoon I decided to take my kids (age 1 and 4) to the beach while my husband went to a business meeting. I loaded kids up in the car but then remembered I’d left the stroller at the front desk of our hotel. I parked as close to the front door as possible, noticed a police officer parked in the spot behind me (which made me feel secure enough to leave my kids for all of 60 seconds), locked the doors but cracked the windows and ran to fetch the stroller. Big mistake! I received the lecture of my life (I was endangering the lives of my children, negligent, on and on). I think he wanted to give me a ticket, but didn’t when I told him I thought my kids would be safe 10 feet from his patrol car. Needless to say, I never leave my kids in the car! Except yesterday when I had to run in the the gas station and pay…

Here’s a question for those who believe this was endangerment:

At the ages of 6 and 9 (school aged children) can, and in many cases do, walk to school or to the bus stop on a daily basis with little or no supervision. At the age of 6, I was in charge of getting myself from the back door of my house to the bus stop, unsupervised.

How is leaving the same kids in the car any more dangerous than letting them walk to scheel or to the bus stop?

“If they get the call and are told to go, they go- and I suspect they’re especially likely to be sent out to investigate if a situation involves children.”

Often it is not what happens that defines who we are, but how we react to it. Yes, the police have to respond to the calls they get. But they do not have to take action just because someone makes a phone call. See the City of Cambridge vs. Prof. Gates bruhaha…

@The Parent

I feel for you here and even though it’s not worth an ounce of practical good I have to tell you that I do not believe that you and your partner have done anything to endanger your children.

Personally, I think you need to ignore the comments you see or hear that criticize you for the decision, because all it will do is make you doubt yourself. You are experiencing enough doubt already and you don’t need more. You need to feel confident about yourself, your children, your decision, and your knowledge of your children and their capabilities in order to fight this and see it through. You love your kids. You take good care of them. You don’t make baseless decisions. Remember that. Now, as for the law…

According to the link provided by another commenter:
http://www.harrisonshope.org/legislation.html

you can access NY States Laws:
http://www.harrisonshope.org/m_images/Individual%20State%20Laws/Proposed%20Laws/New%20York.pdf

A quick read shows the part that is relevant to your case:
“Being a parent, guardian or other person legally charged
with the care or custody of a child less than seven years old, he or she leaves such child inside a motor vehicle without the supervision of a person who is at least twelve years of age, under conditions which knowingly or recklessly present a significant risk to the health or safety of such child.”

Ok, so, you may know this already, but I think it’s worth repeating for everyone to read. In short there wasn’t anything “legally wrong” with leaving your 9 year old in the car alone. She’s older than 7 and doesn’t need a guardian in the car according to NY state law.

Now, the problem for you is that according to the law the 6 year old needed to have someone aged 12 or over in order for it to be legal.

Essentially, according to the law, the 9 year old is deemed responsible enough to look after herself but NOT deemed responsible enough to look after herself AND another child who is under the age of 7.

The really sticky part is the phrase: “under conditions which knowingly or recklessly present a significant risk to the health or safety of such child”

While the theory of our judicial system is that you are innocent until proven guilty, that tends not to be how it works in real life. While the police officer should have to prove that the conditions were a significant risk to the health and safety of the child it is more likely that you will have to prove that the circumstances were NOT a risk.

I wish you nothing but luck with this case. Please come back to the site and update us on what’s going on.

God bless you.

Legislators need to learn the difference between a tragedy (a child dies when left in a car with the windows rolled up for 8 hours on a 90 degree day) and a threat to public safety. Get a grip please! If we legislate every possible danger, risk, or questionable decision a person could make we’ll be living in a Big Brother State. Let’s see the big picture here people!

@ACarLessFamily,

“One the one hand as free range parenst we presume that the public will (by and large) protect our kids…but when someone is concerned in a situation like this you all click your tongues and shake your heads.
You can’t have it both ways.”

This isn’t about having it both ways. Because calling the police isn’t “help”.

Concern, I have no problem with. Let me break it down for you. Let’s say you’re a grownup who personally wouldn’t leave your 6 and 9 year old in the car alone. First, hooray for you – but that doesn’t make you any kind of parenting authority on what everyone else should do (with their different children, different circumstances, etc). If you’re concerned and actually want to look out for the kids in question then hey waiting by the car, sure. If you’re paranoid or worried or if something doesn’t feel right (remember intuition? It works), coming into the store to check things out, sure. Asking Walmart to page the owner of a such-and-such car. Heck yeah, help out or show concern. Do it with humility and kindness if you’re going to do it.

Calling the authorities when there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER of anything bad happening? No.

We don’t have enough information in this article to know what happened but it sounds like the cops were called without any investigation. In any case I know this happens – it’s that “well-wisher”

@RayD

“Half an hour is a long time, I would say 15 minutes is ok, longer than that and the kids are likely to get bored and start messing about – 15 mins is a long time to a 6 year old”

I’m glad we have your sophisticated algorithms for time, weather conditions, ages, temperament of individual children. It sounds like you are the authority on what is the “OK” thing to do – and after all these considerations that you as a stranger can make in this scenario, you support that if it goes on a minute longer, and the police should be called. Do you have a number so we can call you to consult? I often have trouble knowing exactly how many minutes I can leave my kids in the car alone.

[/ sarcasm off]

I mean we COULD just leave this to parents to decide, being as they likely know their own childrens capabilities and what the circumstances dictate.

I am all for other parents being concerned if they see something they personally wouldn’t do, or if they are just paranoid ninnies. But calling the cops without confronting the parents or doing some investigation is what I call an over-reaction, it can be upsetting for all involved, it is a waste of the police’s time, and it creates a “police state” of fear – as we see in example above of the woman who got the big lecture after stroller-fetching and now claims she will NEVER let her kid sit in the car, even for a minute.

@ACarLessFamily

In responding to your comment I did not belittle you whatsoever. I used logic, because I am definitely going to deconstruct the “You can’t have it both ways” argument when I hear it.

“As we DON’T have the full story all we can do is comment on how WE would react”

Exactly, and I’m suggesting for those who think “something should be done” they might try any of my suggestions. Not calling the cops by rote.

@AWB – More succinct and better said than my long-winded above post.

So I’m tippy-toeing across the middle of this one.

I think leaving the kids for ten or fifteen minutes in the parking lot at my local convenience store, or the library, or anywhere I could have gotten back to them quickly if I needed to, would be fine. my rule of thumb about that is: if the kids get scared or need something, can they walk into the store and find me fairly quickly? If it’s yes, then great; stay in the car and read.

I think that half-hour in the Wal-Mart parking lot is something I would not have done. After it was clear that the errand was not happeining quickly, I would have elected for one of us (because there were 2 adults), to go back and hang with the kids. That’s just a long time to leave kids in the car alone, whether it’s hot or cold out. After the first ten minutes or so, it’s not a “quick errand” — it’s a shopping trip. And if they have to have you paged to find you, you’re probably too far away.

This isn’t the same as having kids walk home from the bus stop, where they are in familiar territory. This is the parking lot at Wal-Mart. Not the same thing.

Why exactly, would you trust the world with your kids? Leaving them in the car in a Walmart parking lot no less, what planet did you just fly in from or what prescription med did you run out of to lose your personal responsibility of providing a safe environment for your children? Apparently, you felt compelled to test the CPS again; or maybe, your 9 year old is an old soul who would rather sit in a car then be seen with you in Walmart? Common sense, sound judgment and personal responsibility is lacking in this couple’s life.

@Youngadultinmexico

You are belaboring your point over and over re: we can’t decide Free Range is “Right”, and then decide everyone else has to think the same.

As a Free Range parent, I live with this reality every day. Lots of people don’t agree with my mindset. Which is why I’m happy to suggest some alternatives to calling the police – as you quoted in your most recent post.

FYI, in Illinois it’s child endangerment to leave a kid alone for 10 minutes in the car without someone 14 or older. 10 minutes, explicitly. 5 is legal, 10 is not.

I have a 2 month old daughter, and honestly I’m terrified to tell people about how we parent her, lest I get CPS called on me. I’m glad we’re the only people who’ve noticed that my baby has a tan (as she LOVES being outside), because I’m certain someone will have a serious problem with my child not having a vitamin d deficiency.

It’s seriously little things like that. I’m scared someone will notice my daughter enjoys the sunlight.

@Kelly

And sorry for saying exactly the same for the third time now, but I don’t think you really are understanding my point or ACarLessFamily’s. To elaborate a fourth time, on simpler words, suggesting ways for people to act differently is not enough to go on about ACarLessFamily’s algorithms in your brilliant sarcastic way, or to satanize the people who acted in this case for what they acted. I guess we can both do better on our writing/reading skills.

@Elizabeth, @Lenore

“I think it would be great to have a forum for people to post these experiences and access the helpful responses that have been given in the past. And also have a forum so we can keep up with the families and find out how things are going as their cases progress.”

I think this would be a great idea, too. I have been reading these stories for some time now, and whenever there is a “so-and-so got into legal trouble for such-and-such”, I often find myself curious as to what happened.

MaeMae – Yes, as you can see by my recent comment, I am definitely moving on.

In reference to your “old souls” – I have one child this way, and the other who’d probably take an opportunity to get out of the car and hitch a ride to Seattle. Of course he’d probably do it safely, but he IS five. 🙂

@Uly, I was going to copy and paste and ask the same questions but you did it for me. 🙂

What, exactly, was the danger? The temps weren’t hot that day, from what The Parent has shared with us. My nine year old is capable of getting out of a car if needed, and knows to hold a younger child’s hand if necessary. She can also dial a cell phone. What was the danger lurking for this particular nine year old?

Fifteen minutes turned into thirty. It happens a lot. I might call out to the car, but you know, I’ve left my kids in the car for years now and my oldest tends to call me to whine that we’ve been in there too long. 🙂 I can’t help it if someone managed to pick up every item in the store that had no tag on it and endless price checks are happening. The risks of kidnapping STILL HAVE NOT INCREASED IN THAT EXTRA FIFTEEN MINUTES. 750,000 years, remember.

Babe, I don’t necessarily disagree with you. However, where was the danger? WHAT was the danger?

And no. It is not always wise or even acceptable to leave your kids alone somewhere.

Fair enough, however the converse – that it is never wise or acceptable to leave your kids somewhere – is also not true.

Again I ask, what, specifically, is so bad about wal-mart parking lots? People keep stating it like this is some specially bad place to leave your kid, but I don’t see it.

@ Bungalow Babe

Letting a 9 year old stay in a parked car with the windows rolled down and read her book while the parents run an errand is not the same thing as abandoning “stewardship of your kids”.

Even NY state law (where this happened) says it’s ok to leave a 9 year old in the car unattended.

My parents were the LEAST free-range one could imagine when I was growing up in the ’70s and ’80s. But it was ubiquitous for my mother to leave us in the car when she ran into the grocery store to pick up dinner. No, I wasn’t 4 when she did it, but by the time I was 9 it happened a lot.

Please don’t confuse free-range with negligence. It takes a great deal of time, energy, care, concern, and yes, vigilance and stewardship to raise a free-range kid. Teaching the skills necessary to become self-sufficient is harder than it sounds and requires constant attention and awareness of your child and his/her skills. No one who is truly committed to free-range style parenting is lax about child-rearing.

It’s not “ranting and aging at the machine” to recognize that additional and more specific of legislation don’t actually make anyone safer it just makes us more limited. Any educated civil libertarian would agree; free-range or not. Remember, the people who are actually dangerous threats to our children are criminal, so adding a few more laws isn’t going to thwart them. The additional laws only limit parents and genuine good Samaritans who have a child’s best interest at heart.

Val, in California leaving the kids (age 1 and 4) as you did is illegal. And you did it right in front of a cop! No wonder you got a lecture. When that law first took effect they made sure that all parents knew it meant never leave your kids in the car EVER. Even if you loaded them into your car and then had to run back in the house to get something. Now I don’t know anyone that wouldn’t just run back in the house, but it is illegal to leave them in the car in the situation you describe.

in defense of the parent, when you go to the WalMart pharmacy you never know how long it will take. sometimes it’s 5 minutes, sometimes it’s an hour. that’s one of the reasons i use my independent local pharmacist.

but the greater point … i think by the time a kid is 9 s/he can figure out if they are too hot & take reasonable action. we have not had a/c for the entire history of the world. that said, i don’t do it at walmart or similar big box stores b/c the one time my husband let our son sit on the hood on a beautiful cool sunny day, with his father sitting in the car while I ran in to grab a few things, we received a warning for child endangerment. that’s just not worth the risk.

I wasn’t going to say anymore, but I must. No one seems to remember that there was a 6 year old asleep in the car with the 9 year old.
Yes a 9 year old can be trusted in the car, but there is a big difference between 9 and 6.

@The parent I am not wagging my finger at you, I am not saying you did a bad thing. What I am saying is as parents (yes even the saintly free range kind :P) we all make mistakes, we all make errors of judgment, we all have moments when we look back and think “WOW, lucky I got away with that!” I have a million in my belt.
As posted, free range shouldn;t mean neglected. (again I am NOT accusing you of neglect) but it has to be remembered that the person who reported you (and NO to call the police wasn’t a good thing either) may have had tragedy in their life..may have left THEIR kid in the car and had something bad happen. I don;t for one minute think anyone would call the police if they were not genuinely concerned (in their opinion) for the childrens welfare.

In fact a 9 year old on her own would be fine…but she was in effect babysitting her 6 year old brother.
In the UK that would be seen as neglect.
A babysitter should 14 or over in the uk.

I have been told off by the police, I left a buggy outside a friends house (I stepped in pulled the door to to stop her dog escaping while I put my elder childs coat on.
I got a lecture from a policeman about putting my baby in danger.
I wonder what tragedies the police see everyday that makes them so quick to pull you up for something so seemingly small.

Hey cagey, et. al.,

I am genuinely curious about how you feel about parents who decide not to vaccinate their children for various reasons, and then claims they are hurting everyone’s herd immunity, and moves to make more vaccinations mandatory.

I am genuinely curious about how you feel regarding stories of CPS and the courts called on parents that won’t vaccinate their kids.

I didn’t have time to read everyone’s comments, so I apologize if this has been said.

Just by comparison, below is the law in TX (quoted from CPS). Hot weather is a major issue here so the law is more explicit about cars than homes:

“We do not recommend leaving a child in a motor vehicle for any length of time… it can result in heat exhaustion or heat stroke, leading to permanent disability or death in a matter of minutes….

Leaving a child in a vehicle is punishable under the Texas Penal Code, Title 5, Chapter 22, Section 10 LEAVING A CHILD IN A VEHICLE. A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly leaves a child in a motor vehicle for longer than five minutes, knowing that the child is:

1. younger than seven years of age; and

2. not attended by an individual in the vehicle

who is 14 years of age or older. An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor. If the child is injured, the charge is then elevated to child endangerment, which is a felony. The penalties are six months to two years in jail and a fine up to $10,000…”

For the record, I have kids the same age and one younger. I have made those 5-10 minute grocery trips (in mild weather). Happily, no one has ever called the cops. Maybe our tinted van windows with screens help.

Oy.

I wish there was a more relaxed attitude towards points of view that challenge the absolutist position on kids, parents and their ability to do whatever they please wherever they please.

Please read what I wrote. Nowhere in my post am I stating that the act of leaving a 6 and 9 year old in a car for half an hour in a Walmart parking lot is tantamount to child abuse or even neglect.

Having raised THREE incredibly independent kids, two of whom are grown, ALL of whom are self-sufficient and world travelers, to boot, I neverthless would have to characterize something like this as NOT A GREAT IDEA.

Can ya live with that? Someone who successfully raised independent kids thinks it is not the world’s best idea to leave a 6 and 9 year old for half an hour in a Walmart parking lot.

This is not a negation of Free Range Parenting.

It’s a judgment call based on my subjective assessment of the variables of the situation.

Again, there tends to be a shrill, up-in-arms tone to some of the comments which reminds me not of mature adults trying to figure out how to create a better world for their kids but of sulky adolescents stuck in detention. trying to figure out how to get back at the school administration.

I’m the other parent, the one who was arrested.

I’d like to add that 6 year olds who live within a quarter mile from school are expected to walk to school in this county without adult supervision. They get dropped off at movies alone at this age and picked up an hour and a half later. They even run around the state fair and the mall without an adult hovering. None of these things I would allow for fear of what might happen, but in a parking lot far from a bar or any other danger with 21 security cameras watching every inch of the place, where my children know exactly where we are 100 yards away and have the ability to get out of the car and come to us if they need to, yes, I thought they were safe.

I’d never leave a child in a running car. Also, it’s a small point, but it was the officer who said 30 minutes; I looked at the time and corrected him that it was in fact 22 minutes; but he said that didn’t matter and later said 30 minutes again. Plus, it was not one small child alone; it was two big kids (6 3/4 and 9) together, practicing “The Buddy System” which my eldest son (23) and I were taught about by the School Safe Kids program when he was 6.

Children need to be safe, but they also need to gradually learn
independence over a period of time rather than clicking from one age to another and being unleashed on the world. Using the buddy system in broad daylight watched by 21 security cameras . . . I thought was a safe time and place.

Question of “The Parent”,

Would you consider explaining why you were charged and arrested and not, well, the both of you?

Thank you and best wishes to your whole family

Nine year old in a car? Playing a block away from the house? This is what gets the Child Stealing Agency on alarm these days? You have got to be kidding me! I was staying at home, watching two younger brothers when I was nine. I was riding my bike all over town when I was nine. I certainly stayed in the car many, many times during shopping trips when I was younger than that.

What about kids walking home from school? Is that negligent, and if so, of the parents or of the school district? It is time to say enough is enough with these monsters, and the paranoid busybodies who are aiding and abetting them.

Even if we accept the false premise that their paranoia is founded, to what end? Save children from being kidnapped randomly by abusive psychopaths so that the state can kidnap them and pay abusive psychopaths to keep them? A child under care of state programs is much more likely to be abused and violated than one standing on the street alone, that’s something to think about right there.

I don’t know much about this site — but I do know how easy it would be to have a simple PayPal (or something) button people could use to contribute to a legal fund for exactly these situations. Is there something like that — here or elsewhere?

@Kelly I apologize if you took my opinion as prescriptive advice for you to follow. I think half an hour is a long time to leave a 6-year-old in a car (a 9-year-old reading a book no, but the 6 y/o yes). I did not say the police should be called after 15 mins, I said I, personally, would have popped out of the store to check on the kids. Is that really such an offensive suggestion?

I just read the Harrison’s Hope story – I had never heard of this before reading these comments – and I have to say I think the zero seconds thing is ridiculous. But what I do find interesting is that the mother says the woman who left her toddlers in the van had previously been warned, by a concerned member of the public, not to leave them alone in a running vehicle. She did it again (probably more than once) and the little boy was, sadly, killed.

I don’t know what to make of that as I still think Harrison’s death was a sad, tragic, but ultimately rare and unlucky accident. However it does make me wonder at what point should an authority figure step in? Those kids were 2 and 3 and left in a RUNNING vehicle – a lot different to 6 & 9 year olds in a parked vehicle. I, for sure, would be concerned if I saw that but I’m not sure what I’d actually do about it, if anything. Interested to hear what other people think they would do/if you would be concerned at all?

I have a 4,5 year old and I can’t think of a single free range thing I do with him, because he’s a small child.

It could mean they are parenting now with the intention of adding freedom at a reasonable rate when the kid gets older.

It could also mean they let their kid do things with an amount of supervision that other people don’t – my older niece at 5 flipped pancakes and broke eggs (she totally messed it up the first few times, and was surprised when we said we KNEW she’d get egg all over herself, we only let her do it because we had extra eggs!), and by six we were letting her chop vegetables unaided so long as somebody else is in the room.

Addendum to my comment above. Here is another way of thinking about this whole kid-left-the-car mess, and that is that compared to even just 20 years ago, kids are spending a MUCH more time in cars today than in the past, as we all are. Compared to 30-40 years ago, well, there is little comparison.

When I was growing up in the ‘burbs in the dark ages 40 years ago, many mothers didn’t even drive! I was rarely driven ANY place, and by the time my mom had gotten her license most of us were old enough to be left in a car safely. Since she didn’t drive, we walked all over the place, sometimes when it was late in the day, or alone, or for distances that would raise all kinds of alarm bells today. And kids DID sometimes get in to trouble, or be victimized. But for the most part, we were fine.

But my point is that because so much child care today involves driving kids a awful lot, often with siblings in tow, that how, when, and where one can or should leave kids ‘unattended’ in a car is a matter open to a lot of disagreement, and relatively recent legislation. As has been said often before on this blog, the irony is that the most pressing danger to kids is being driven, period. But as no one is willing to give up that luxury, we can, and will, instead obsess over how to make our kids as safe as humanly possible while we schlep them all over town.

@Lindlau_Lou

If the risk is that other cars hit the car the children are in, in which way is that less of risk when the parents are around?

Are cars with kids more likely to be hit or to explode on impact?

Or is it really very likely that children who may have been hurt in such in impact will not get medical treatment if their parents aren’t near them?

Uly,
Thanks for answering. No one else really did. I guess I see things like cooking with supervision to be a normal, everyday part of childhood. My 4.5 year old loves to help in the kitchen. He loves to fold towels. He loves to dust with his very own swiffer duster.

But seriously, I always cringe when I people post about their very young children being out and about in the neighborhood unsupervised and such. I sincerely don’t get why people think this is okay in any way. I think it sort of makes all us free rangers look a bit crazy! I don’t want to be identified with someone who lets their toddlers or preschoolers out to play alone on the sidewalk. I have as little in common with those people as I do with the parents who hover around their 10 year olds on the playground. I like moderation and common sense, I suppose.

A 9-year-old in the situation as described should be fine for that duration. Ridiculous charges!

@Jim: as you are a police officer, I know you see a lot of horrible things. In my short time working for a police department (not as an officer) I saw just a fraction of that and I understand there are terrible people out there in the world. The point of “free-ranging” is that we do not spend our lives dwelling on those horrible things and people. If we let ourselves guide every action based on what could happen in the incredibly rare circumstance that someone or something horrible randomly comes along to harm us or our children, those people, those monsters, win. They ruin our lives by proxy, without even taking any effort.

Child abductions by strangers in the middle of the day surrounded by people at a busy store happen to people with the same frequency as shark attacks and lighting strikes. We can’t let that dictate our lives. There are reasonable precautions to take based on your circumstances. If it’s a bad neighborhood, sure take the kids with you. If you have a relative or ex-SO who you fear may be looking to take your kids, absolutely – don’t take your eyes off them.

As far as the law goes, I hope you can agree that there are some ridiculous laws that are a waste of your time to enforce and take you away from doing your real job – intervening in crime and when that’s not possible pursuing suspects. You may not agree with me on which laws those are, but you do have discretionary power to decide how your time is spent (at least within the bounds set by the chain of command). My suggestion would be – don’t waste your time putting loving parents in jail who’s only crime is trusting their children to take care of themselves without constant supervision, or not bowing to the hysterical fear that we’re expected to be haunted by as parents. We have to decide for ourselves, as individuals, what risks are reasonable and what are not – and live with the consequences.

I’m always amazed at these stories, but not because you think.

Moms are, given their legal privilege as women, allowed to parent their kids in a “free range” fashion. Dads are not – as from the above case – they are held responsible for their actions in the eyes of the law, unlike mothers.

This movement is all well and good, but it hinges on he reality that mothers can get away with anything they want, generally, where their kids are concerned. Dads don’t have that option – they only have responsibilities in the eyes of the law.

Thank you to TressaRay and Justin for answering. I guess I just consider a lot of those types of things normal (especially after 3 kids.)

We hear so often how wonderful women and mothers are.But the job I have has permitted me to observe just how often scattered ditzy moms leave their kids alone in parked cars while they run into the store,often for 30 minutes or more.And yet we are supposed to believe that children are in better hands with mom than dad.

@Justen: Thank you for your sound and rational response. I agree with you on what you have said. As a parent, you can not raise your child under the fear that there is something terrible lurking around every corner and in the shadows for them. As you said, with that mentality, the bad guys have won. However, we do need to consider these “possibilites” when we make some decisions and then weigh the pros and cons and make a better, more thought out decision. Because of what I see through my job, this is second nature to me and admittedly, I do it mcuh more than the avarage parent not exposed to such experiences.

As for “some ridiculous laws that are a waste of your time to enforce and take you away from doing your real job — ” I couldnt agree with you more. I also agree that although we may agree on some, we will not agree on all. But whether I personally agree with the law or not, I am required to uphold and enforce the laws that we have. Every police offier has discretionary powers when we are working. That is why you may only get a warning verses a ticket in many situations. However, when called to a situation by a citizen, those “discretionary powers ” are severly restricted and we will adhere to what the law states, and requires, much more closely. Could this situation have turned out differently if the officer observed the children on his/her own while making a routine patrol through the lot verses being called by a concerened citizen? All I can say is, possibly.

As for your comment “…….same frequency as shark attacks ” I would beg to differ, somewhat, being that I am a shark attack survivor.

I had read in someone’s comment about “20 security camera’s watching the parking lot”. Please, PLEASE do not think for an instant that your child, your car or your packages are any safer in a parking lot with these cameras than in one without. These cameras do NO GOOD while the crime is being commited unless they are being carefully monitored by store security personnel, accompanied by a swift and successful response. Many stores no longer have, or have greatly reduced their Loss Prevention departments and have policy in regards to such a response for personal safety. These camera are good for simply documenting what happened, when it happened and possibly, how many were involed. Very rarely do you get a clear enhancement of the person(s) commiting the crime or a license plate number.

Finally, please do not let yourselves think that just because an area is busy, that it is safer. Society in general pays less attention to things in a busy area than in a slow, less fluid environment. Just think of the phrase “hiding in plain sight.”

I have read all the messages….and I am scratching my head…I am 66…was raised on a farm in Indiana….I learned how to drive a tractor when I was 9…to help my father farm…..I and my sister also…when we were 9…baby sitted….when we were 9…we took a bus into the big town of Ft Wayne…to go to the eye docter…we were given just so much money…we knew what buses to take..we had to make a few transfers…and we knew when to get off and walk a few blocks to the eye doctor…all without our parents beings with us….we were also allowed to walk around in our area….to our friends house…who just might live 5 miles from us…or to ride our bikes there…without a helmet or pads…and we are still alive today….and just sometimes we would be gone all day…playing and having fun….one rule as long as we were home before dark….we had no cell phones then….it seems that kids cannot do that anymore today…with out the government and busybodies…(which are good at times)….we..the parents now..would all be in jail…hung up out to dry….and you also have to take into account…how responsible that 9 year old is…..there are some 21 year olds…that would not trust any further then I could throw them…..one more then one occasion all of us kids..and there were 9 of us….left in a car…anywhere from 5 minutes to 1 hour or longer…and sometimes just a few of us….I personally find its the signs and times of this generation that is the cause of all this….the government thinks it knows what is best for the parents or children…on any given thing…and it is brain washing and dumbing down further generations…to think and follow them…..I could go on…but I won’t…I think you get the drift of how I think…

wellcrtaftedtoo, thank you for such a well-written response. And it is great to see that lawyers such as yourself are reading this blog. What do you think about the merits of FreeRangeKids putting parents in touch with lawyers willing to defend such cases? Do you know any such lawyers or are you perhaps one yourself, now that you are no longer working as a prosecutor?

I have never commented before but feel the need to. First of all, I wish we had all the information. Was it really only 30 minutes? How hot/cold was it outside? Was the 6 year old crying? What drew the outsider’s attention? I have a 9 year old…I have no problem leaving her in the car while I run in the store for coffee etc…I let her stay in the waiting room when I go to the MD (differnet situation though i guess). I think the issue here is the “time factor”. 30 minutes would seem to be a long time. For some reason I think this situation is different than being home alone for 30 minutes etc…you are in a public parking lot with strangers. Again most strangers do not want to get involved. Why didn’t one of the parents step out for a moment to check on the kids if they knew they were going to be delayed? Should CPS be involved? I have no idea. Probably not. In my opinon it was poor judgement that is all, I realize others may disagree. What is confusing to me is that they had a prior CPS report, that is not the norm, so as someone mentioned…maybe it was someone that know this couple.

That’s actually a fairly easy issue, elise. Sometimes, cell phones just don’t work. They might be set too low, might have turned off due to a low battery, never turned on to begin with, the signal is bad, or the calls are just dropped (I’ve encountered this a lot). I’d have to hear from the parents on whether this was true, but I suspect they told the girl the number to the store in the event of being unable to reach their cell phones. Then, being paged in a store, the parents would make the assumption that the child tried to get hold of them via cell, but couldn’t, so she called the store and had them paged.

That’s at least something I would do (and actually encourage). That way, the child has a backup way to reach the parents to tell them something important, like “It’s getting really hot in the car, so we had to get out.”

Krolik,
I like your idea of writing letters to the local papers and those who are so inclined should certainly do that, but i think there is a force at work in this blog that is so powerful it affects the world even if people do no more than read it and its comments. I think the discourse here at Free Range Kids is helping to change the zeitgeist. Through this blog and its comments like-minded people unite and those who have felt disempowered by our fear culture are able to acquire confidence. I think all parents who follow this site leave each time with a nugget of confidence and dignity that they can keep and carry with them and pass on to other parents in private daily conversations.

in regards to someone who commented that neither a 9 year old, nor a 16 year old, for that matter, should be left alone in this situation : what is this country going to be like if all children are continuously chaparoned until they are legal adults? Does that mean an adult need be with each young adult even, at all times while out? Some amount of trust and space needs to be given well before reaching maturity in order to develope a sense of responsibility. Sending a prayer.

I grew up in the 70s. I did a lot; I was free range—we’ve read a ton of stories of what kids “used to” do on here. I thought the 70s and 80s were great. My parents pitied my life as it wasn’t the wonderful 50s they grew up in. There’s a lot of pity for our world and the world our kids are growing up in, but, you know what? I really hated that pity. And, in part, I blamed my parents and their generation for any of the issues with my time. I didn’t create the world I lived in after all; I simply lived in it. If there was something wrong with it, they—not I—had the ability to work to fix it–until I was an adult, at least.

Sure we’d love to allow our kids to run the streets, stay out all day and come home when the sun goes down, etc. What I find interesting here is that folks are either angry or sad that they can’t allow their kids to do the exact same things they themselves did 30 years ago. It simply is a different world. HOWEVER, it’s not because there are more pedophiles in WalMart parking lots. We all know that we are exposed to more information than before. Good or bad, news is on ALL THE TIME. And, news and websites that get attention and traffic are those that have an interesting story. And, like it or not, humans are perversely attracted to the tragic. This means that every tragic story that appears anywhere in the world is always top of the news and top of mind. And, on top of that, this event took place in a country where people are not only litigious; it seems you’re _expected_ to sue if anything ever happens to you.

Because of that, I’d say there’s an awfully high probability that the person who called the cops in this case probably worked for WalMart. They saw the kids out there, didn’t want a law suit if the kids got out, got hurt, whatever so they called the law—not necessarily protecting the kids or being busy bodies, but, essentially, protecting themselves.

All I can think about in this case in particular is that I don’t like car accidents. Any possible accidents I’ve avoided, I’ve done so usually not out of fear of death (fender benders, side-swipes, etc.), but, to avoid annoyance. Sure, if someone runs the red light and it’s actually my green, I could go ahead because it’s my RIGHT to drive how I want to when it’s my turn to go, but, it sure would be stupid to do so when I know I’ll get hit. Not because I’d die or even get terribly injured, but, I’ll have to deal with filing a police report, insurance, I’ll have to get my car fixed, I’ll have to rent a car while mine is getting fixed…or I could just wait 2 seconds and then go through the light without incident.

In this case, sure, the parents know and trust their kids and were only going to be 5 minutes and it _is_ inconvenient to waken a sleeping child. But, they also must be aware of the world we live in (even more so than most of us if folks had called on them just for letting kids play a block away!) and like it or not, that’s what it i — until/unless we do something. So, kids can read books in stores too—where it appears there are no laws against them hanging out on their own. Most WalMarts have a restaurant up front with benche — even a 6 year old could lay down there—under the watchful eyes of the entire Walmart village and in the comfort of air conditioning. It’s inconvenient and it’s not how you want to raise your kids and your child wanted to sit in the car and read, I know. But, unless it was your plan to get arrested and bring attention to the “issue” of being allowed to leave kids in cars if parents feel like it, there was always another easier option. Much like a car accidents I try to avoid, I imagine dealing with CPS and legal fee — not to mention the stress of an incident like this on your family—is far more inconvenient than letting your kids sit in the Walmart or having one parent stay in the car.

And, as for what to do that everyone is asking about…you’re not going to stop legislation in this country. For us all harkening back to our “good old days,” we’ve neglected our history. That is: if something bad happens anywhere and to anyone in this country, the typical reactionary someone else says “There outta be a law.” Then, poof, out comes a law. So, what can we do? Well, how about contacting news agencies? Sure, we can’t expect them to not report on an abducting or something tragic, but, well, ‘there outta be a law’ where any news report about a tragic incident—be it abduction, bear attack, rape, shark attack, lightning strike, hit and run, butterball incident, etc. be followed by an up-to-date statistic on crimes such as the one reported and even on the likelihood of such a thing occurring again/in that area, etc. If they’re going to peddle fear for ratings, they can at least be responsible to tack on a fact or two as an accompaniment.

But, now that I’ve said all this, I have a question—when we all are deciding about situations such as leaving kids in cars, riding buses or subways alone… are there any of you out there who do consider these “rights” worth getting arrested for on purpose? How might a group even stage “protests” to the loss of these rights? I just don’t know for myself and I’m inclined to say no. I do a lot of “free ranging” with my kids, but, I’m also aware and make them aware of the fact that there are things that are out of our control and we must follow what rules or norms apply—depending on the situation. Curious though.

Nicky – One of the stores I frequent just posted a sign on their door that says “No child under 18 permitted in store without an adult.” What?! You can get your license at 17 but mommy still has to go in the store with you. I almost died laughing. However, I sent my 9yo in yesterday while I waited in the car and they didn’t say anything to him. I think maybe they posted it so they could throw out the troublemakers. 18, really? How’s that 18 that never shopped alone gonna go away to college and provide for himself? I don’t get it.

Apologies if this has already been answered, but (1) why couldn’t the partner have given the mother cash, or his debit card and PIN number, so she could pay for the prescription, and he could wait in the car with the kids; and/or (2) why couldn’t the 9 y.o. have read his/her book in a chair in the waiting area near the pharmacy? Is the car the only place a child can read? Seems like more of a case of the parents wanting to do what they wanted to do (go in the store together and not wake the sleeping child) than the parents following some free range philosophy…

Also, the 9 y.o. was instructed to call 911. Is that what the child did, ergo why the police were called out? Or was the child given the Wal-Mart phone number, which is how the parents were paged?? Something doesn’t entirely compute here, at least not in my mind…

@LindaLou, I also have a 2.5-year-old that I am attempting to raise with a free-range mindset. In addition to the things others have mentioned, for us this means preparing her to be independent in situations in which we may not necessarily CHOOSE to have her be independent. So we drill into her not to go past a certain point in the driveway, how to check for cars before crossing the street, to stop running and check for Mama or Daddy periodically when at the farmers’ market or downtown, to ride her bike on the very edge of the street (no sidewalks in our neighborhood), to “go to the grass” when a car is coming… Not only do these things make her generally more capable and serve as building blocks for future free-range competence, but they’re safety checks – so that she is able to function as well as possible on her own if (when) she wanders off.

@TressaRay – I liked your comment about free-ranging allowing your kids to be more involved in their own lives.

@Lenore, I think this would be an interesting positive topic for a blog post sometime – starting a conversation about what we do with our kids that we consider “free-range” at different ages, from toddlers to high-schoolers (and beyond in both directions, I suppose).

Gloxie:

Nothing worth doing is every easy. I don’t think that people should go doing things with the intent of getting themselves arrested, since likely that would actually endanger a kid from time to time. But rather we should all hold true to our convictions. We shouldn’t care what other people think if what we think makes sense to us and is not illegal. If it is illegal, yet seems unjust, then we should work within the system to right the wrong. If it’s not illegal, then we should stand up for our rights as citizens and as parents.

Are there any updates to this story? I leave my 4y/o in the car when running to the ATM at times, but now I think I won’t…

I can understand why there would be concern for the children. But unless there is evidence of physical or sexual abuse should Child Services be involved?