Man on Plane Must Change Seats — He’s Next to 2 Boys. Australians Outraged!

For Pete’s sake. As if a potential pedofile has a choice : isle, window, or near unaccompanied minors. Moronic.

I wish I had a choice. Isle, window, or next to a fireman. If in the teeny, tiny chance there was an emergency, that is exactly where I would want my kids. Duh!

I was on a flight from Belgium where a Hassidic Jew asked to change seats because he would be sitting next to a young woman. He said it was considered impure for him to sit next to her. While Jewish myself I do not honor requests for bigoted behavior. I refused to change on grounds that they would not do so if someone was refusing to sit next to a Black person. Eventually the woman ended up next to me. I felt really bad for her because it was almost like she had done something wrong.

You can’t even change seats on a plane for 1000 legit reasons (BO, perfume, fat people, talkers, etc.). But if someone else wants to move YOU due to THEIR prejudice the airline will move YOU. Not even just allow the bigot to move. They will move the person that the bigot is targeting.

Hey, I’m a fan of the proposed policy- I love ending up with empty seats next to me.

@Brian, I have offered to move my seat on a plane to make a religious man or woman more comfortable. On a flight back from England I was placed directly on the end of a row next to two religious men (one middle-aged the other teenaged.) My seat was not appropriate and I looked across the plane at a young single man next to a religious woman and suggested we switch.
He readily agreed and both religious parties visibly seemed relieved to be away from an awkward situation that they were clearly uncomfortable with as it is related to rules of modesty (not the the woman herself was impure but that it would not be modest for him or her to share such close quarters as they are not married or related.)

For further info look up “Shomer Negiyah” to understand the rules/customs of this practice.

The very nice thank you that we both received was unnecessary as neither of us were really “put out” by the switch and instead of two people being comfortable five people were comfortable.

On ElAl there are actually sections of the flight for just men or just women to make it easier for the religious folk to feel comfortable.

I’m wondering if the woman was upset about being forced to sit next to a couple kids. Never be afraid to challenge this ridiculous “policy” on any airline. And if they tell you “This plane will not take off unless you change your seat.” Tell them, “This plane will not take off.”

@ Brian. Moving away from fat people is a legitimate non-prejudiced reason? …right.

I’m a HAM. Hetero Anglo Male. All the @#$% in the World is my fault. Racism, sexism, pedophilia, religious persecution, homophobia, yep, I get blamed. Hell, I bet I’m behind alien abductions, too.

@Ben, what kind of idiot parents put themselves in a row 3 rows away from their 6 year old? I would have put myself and the kid in one row, and sent my husband back to sit with you…It’s crucial for a responsible parent to be close to a minor child on an airplane, in case of emergency evacuation, etc. You are very kind to be so agreeable with the child.

@Pastiche: I guess you’d be OK with priests on planes being separated from kids, seeing as they are over-represented in the paedophile ranks. Oh, and then there’s those pesky Muslims, best not let them fly at all – could be terrorists!

Best keep any black men off the plane all together too – with such high rates of incarceration any of them could be violent criminals.

Oh, and lets not forgot: most child sexual abuse is perpetrated by relatives or family friends, so we’d best make sure that parents can’t sit with their kids.

One last, little point: there’re on a goddamn PLANE, surrounded by people. Even on the vary rare chance that the random strange man seated next to the minors *was* a paedophile, how on earth could he act on his impulses?

Pure lunacy.

Insist your kid is seated next to a gay man. Statistically it will be much safer.

The quicker we stop humoring people about the laws and rules they have made up based on belief – the faster we move on to a hopefully more enlightened place as a species. Half the world is male and the other half female (roughly). At some point we will need to deal with that in an adult manner.

As for all men being pedos – When I was 12 I spent 6 weeks in Italy with a host family. I flew by myself which was an amazing adventure for me as I remember. It was 1983. On the return trip I started talking to a gentleman in his 40s who was wearing a cowboy hat. He was a scrap metal dealer from Texas. He said he had a daughter my age and a son about 15, and we talked for a long time in the 1st class lounge for American Airlines about soccer and comic books and music – all the things I loved as a kid. He knew rather a lot about this stuff which led me to think he must actually have kids of his own. I was in the 1st class lounge because I was an unaccompanied minor and he was there because he was a rich business guy. When we started boarding I headed to my coach seat, and he to his spot upstairs in the 1st class section of the 747. I thanked him and said how nice it was to meet him, and all the polite things my Mother taught me to say to people who are kind to you. A few minutes later he came back to coach with an attendant and took me to 1st class. He apparently traveled a lot and was well known to the crew so they did him a favor, and I got to go into one of the coolest areas of a plane ever!

I recall the strange looks directed at us when people found out he was not my father. I am not sure what they thought was going to happen even if the cowboy hat wearing man was a pedophile. We were on a plane! There were 2 sections (the super cool upstairs bar and the seating down below) and 2 bathrooms we could go to if he forced me, but there were tons of people around and Flight Attendants as well (back when there were rather a lot more of them, and they were known as “Stewardesses”). He slept for a lot of the flight, but we talked during dinner again for an while and played chess. When we landed and headed for the baggage claim, he had a red cap get my bags. And when my Mom and Grandma met me at JFK he introduced himself and told them what a great kid I was. He was headed back to his family in Houston the next day. We invited him to join us for dinner, but he had 2 meetings to attend that day, and we parted ways.

Today – this would be frowned upon at best and probably against policy on most major carriers, which is so unfortunate as it is one of my most pleasant memories of traveling and of the kindness of strangers, and it gives the trip I took at that young age such a pleasant ending. It is traumatic for kids to travel on their own, and I have always gone out of my way to say a kind word or pass on a deck of playing cards (which I used to always carry with me when I traveled – although I now just use my iPad…) to kids on their own on planes. But people do stare and furrow their brows and assume you are a predator – when I am on my own. When I am with my wife and 4 year old son – not so much. Although pedo predators can certainly be Fathers and Husbands. If all men on their own are statutory rapists in waiting, we are simply giving ourselves over to irrational fear, and potentially ruining any instances of help or future kindness by men who have been branded without cause.

“The fact is 99% of paedophiles are male.”

But 99% of men are not pedophiles. It really is important to understand statistics, and you have failed.

Not only are a small percentage of men pedophiles, but the vast majority of those men will molest children they know, not embrace crimes of opportunity. Seriously, how many men can get away with raping or molesting a child on a plane full of people?

Don’t be ridiculous. You’re part of the problem.

I agree with the policy. It is too bad that the airline did not arrange the seating ahead of time to avoid an embarrassing moment but as a mother I would not want my child seating next to a strange man on a plane.

Then travel with your child. If you don’t want your child sitting next to males/blacks/atheists/evangelicals/muslims/smelly people/mexicans then your only option is to purchase a window seat for your child and make sure you’re always in the middle seat.

Those of us in the land of the sane will be much happier at not having to cater to your total illogic.

The crucial number is not how much more likely a child molestor (not all pedophiles act on their impulses, fortunately) is to be male than female. Instead, it’s how likely that any random male is a child molestor in the first place. And THOSE odds aren’t all that great.

I guess the concern here is that a paedophile (more likely to be male) would use the opportunity of the flight to forge a trust with these unprotected children, possibly gaining access to contact information, schedules, whereabouts, schools, etc., that could aid in an assault.

Sure, that’s a hundred times more likely than your random pedophile simply looking up the location of schools CLOSE TO HOME and picking up a kid with no connection to him whatsoever.

It’s not like schools, playgrounds, kids are hard to locate, so hard that you have to resort to hoping you sit next to an unattended child on a plane.

Pastiche – you are the reason Free Range Kids exists.

@Pastiche While it may true that 99% of all pedophiles are men, what percentage of all men are pedophiles? What percentage of all child abusers are mothers?

Just because I am a man does not make me a monster. It is because of such reactions as yours that I cannot enjoy reading a book in the park. Not because of anything I have done, but because people like you are so afraid that I always get harassed by the cops. All for enjoying a park and a book.

And for being male.

If you are participating on this forum to merely hear your own opinion on the matter you obviously don’t understand what healthy debate is about.

Insulting me indicates that you are uneducated and feeble in mental faculties. Especially as you jump to generalizations that are ludicrous.

Obviously my opinion is not so ridiculous if airlines chose to enact these policies. I have the right to agree with them.

@Pastiche

Airlines have many ridiculous policies. This is one of them. That you agree with them shows that you are truly “uneducated and feeble in mental faculties.”

@Pastiche – Is your father still alive? Would you allow him to be alone with your child? You realize that he is more likely to commit offenses to your children then any stranger on the airplane, right? Do you drive in cars? Do you realize how high the odds are that you will get into an accident?

This is discrimination based on gender and it’s illegal, not just in specific countries but even under the UN.

@dmd

Perhaps my experience does play a role here as maybe the other participants on this forum who have maybe been fortunate to not have had bad experiences colors their perspectives.

I personally think that this is not such a shocking revelation. We know that airports racial profile as do the police (which is wrong) so I am not shocked that airlines have their own means of discrimination. In this case though, I don’t think it is such a big deal. Are men really dying to sit beside unaccompanied children? If so, why?

Maybe only stewards should sit beside unaccompanied children. Maybe that’s the answer.

I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind on the matter, but when I was about 7, my parents dropped me and my brother, 14, off at the movie theater. It was the first time I got to go to the movies without my parents and it was a big deal to me. While my brother was engrossed in a video game, a man came up to me and offered to give me quarters to play games. I refused. He then offered me candy. I also refused that. I didn’t scream or go for help (this was 1980, before “stranger danger” was a common theme), but I just told him no. He asked me what movie I was going to see and who I was with (which I answered, not knowing better) and he continued to ask me if I was sure I didn’t want some candy. At some point, my brother came to get me and the man left (I think employees at the theater may have escorted him out). I never told my parents, which is good because they were probably already nervous about leaving me alone with my brother for the first time, but not because I didn’t want them to know, I just didn’t realize what had happened until a few year later when McGruff came to my school and taught us all about stranger danger.

But here is what is important. I am a Free Range parent, and I intend to stay that way. I am convinced that pedophiles are rare, pedophiles that act on their impulses are even more rare, and rarest of all are pedophiles who act on their impulses to kidnap or molest children in public places. But even if it is one in a million, chances are, at some point in your child’s life, they will come across a pedophile. As a matter of fact, they probably already have. They may have even talked to one. I believe that when I was 7 years old, I did (unless someone has a better explanation about what happened). But even without having been taught how to respond, I avoided a bad situation completely on my own. Imagine how your child might deal with such a situation if you actually teach them some common sense? Not “strangers are bad” but “strangers are good” and, if you ever feel like you are in an unsafe situation, ask a stranger for help. Teach your children what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior for adults and for your child interacting with them and they will know when something is out of place. And even if they don’t, the chances of that random pedophile your child encounters actually being able to do something is so astronomically rare that your attention is best spent on preventing problems that have an actual chance of occurring (like your child being sheltered, afraid and unable to form healthy relationships).

And another thing. If you don’t think it is sexist and teaching your child the wrong message, but rather just using statistics to practice safety, then consider that the vast majority of men who are incarcerated for sexual crimes are black. If it makes you uncomfortable to tell your child to avoid black people (and I hope that it would, because that’s pure racism), then it should make you just as uncomfortable to have them avoiding men. And, if anything, it makes them LESS safe, because it provides a false sense of security by focusing on the wrong thing. The best approach, the free range approach, is to teach your children how to be safe, then TRUST them to be safe on their own. That is the best way to put the statistics in your favor without harming society (and your child) in the process.

I also wanted to add: We assume this “don’t trust men” thing is only a matter of “better safe than sorry.” Consider that men are more likely than women to be fire fighters and police — the exact people you want your child to go to when they are in mortal danger. Do we really want children getting themselves into dangerous situations because they won’t trust the people who are supposed to help them?

When I was a kid, I got lost all the time. I had a terrible sense of direction. I soon learned that it was OK to ask anyone who looked like they might be able to help me. This meant I talked to countless strange men. Not one of them ever tried to molest me or kidnap me.

“Are men really dying to sit beside unaccompanied children? If so, why?”

Not really. Maybe not any more so than a black woman who wants to sit at the front of a bus. I mean, the back seat is just as comfortable as the front seat.

Look, I don’t mean to try to equate this at the same level as civil rights, and it is certainly the case that men have historically enjoyed many privileges that women have not, but I don’t think you can be in favor of equal rights of any kind (race, sex, orientation, etc.) without seeing what is wrong with this policy.

Wait a minute — Sarge – are you abducting aliens???

love it pentamom! I can’t stand all of these stories that most helicopter mom’s tell about how they (or their kids) were approached by someone and handled it properly and protected themselves as cautionary tales. This is an airplane for goodness sake. If a man started touching my kids in a bad way and they didn’t cause a ruckas then I sure didn’t do my job as a parent.

@pentamom

The man was sitting in the back seat with the door open. He said: “Want some candy little girl.” His accomplice was driving.

Does that sound like a normal event to you? I was a FreeRange raised kid. Hence, why I was outside playing unsupervised.

Fortunately, I was smart enough to protect myself. Let’s hope your kid is if the same event were to occur.

In conclusion, I think that it should be to the parents of the unaccompanied child travelling to decide who they are comfortable with sitting beside their children. Not a policy.

Then, let’s hope that all of your children are safe. Regardless, of your decision.

Pastiche — I didn’t say that it was a normal event or that I don’t think the guy was up to no good.

I’m saying someone saying something to you, you responding appropriately and running away, and him leaving without any further action, are not “almost kidnapping.” “Almost kidnapped” is grabbed or at least an attempt at grabbing.

By that standard, we “almost” have crimes committed against us every day — when the car thief notices our doors are locked and moves on, the car is “almost stolen.” When the mugger scopes the area with ill intent, notices that there are twenty other people walking down the street and doesn’t even consider attacking us, we’re “almost mugged.” And when the possible molester says one thing and drives off when it clearly becomes infeasible to pursue you, you’re “almost kidnapped.”

I think the concept of “almost had a crime committed against me” needs a higher standard than “made one verbal attempt at a distance to involve me and immediately gave up when it became a bigger risk for him than for me.”

The fact that someone made a wholly failed attempt at harming you that didn’t actual place you in danger for any amount of time, and at the tender age of four you reacted properly and completely escaped harm before even being physically accosted, should make you LESS inclined to think that children are defenseless against overwhelming numbers of powerful predators, rather than the opposite.

“In conclusion, I think that it should be to the parents of the unaccompanied child travelling to decide who they are comfortable with sitting beside their children. Not a policy. ”

Why? Why should passengers have control over airline seat assignments in preference to other PAYING passengers, when there is NO DANGER on an airplane? Even if your highly unfortunate experience were properly characterized as “almost kidnapping,” it could not have happened on an airplane full of people.

I can only shake my head at this story… It’s tragic. I’m a guy, with a beautiful wife and adorable (grown) kids, and a former volunteer firefighter. Back in 1988 I had a flight to Kansas where I was seated next to a wonderful nine-year-old girl. She and I talked the entire trip from NYC, and her parents, sitting across the aisle, were only concerned that she was bothering me. Far from it. She was engaging and brilliant (and made the flight go by so quickly), and an inspiration to me for when I had my own daughter. I even traded seats so she could have the window (by far my favorite seat). There was nothing but friendship and an appreciation for her parents not thinking that I was “dangerous”. Most of us guys want nothing more than to make life better and more fun for kids. I know I enjoyed my childhood, and have a little sister (who was very fond of snakes when she was four… go figure…) and three brothers. I know what family is, and I’d protect these little monkeys with my life. And read to them from Calvin and Hobbes. I feel for this guy.

I only recalled my experience as a child to illustrate that even as a FreeRange child in what was supposedly the golden age of FreeRange parenting there were real persistent dangers.

I have been asked to move seats on airplanes by parents and have done so willingly. Who cares where you sit you’re stuck anyway. If my moving made a parent more comfortable then great.

I think many people on this forum are underestimating the danger of paedophilia. Sadly, it may take having their children harmed or the children of people close to them before they realize this is no laughing matter.

As a female teacher, I am required to follow certain protocols with all my students male or female such as: never being alone with students in a closed room, not exchanging personal emails, text messages, etc. As well as going through police checks every few years.

These kinds of precautionary measures do not apply to the stranger sitting on the plane with your child. If unaccompanied the child may seek solace in that person. If they happen to be a bad person they could use that moment of unaccompanied vulnerability to their advantage. If you want to take that risk knock yourself out. I would not.

@ Pastiche – I replied already but I wanted to add something else, as I was getting ready to take my son to Jujitsu where he is learning to defend himself, I thought about something .. Half of the grown men I know lost their virginity to their babysitters, actually more than half.. My stepfather lost his virginity when he was 9 years old, that’s the same age as my son. A lot of times those don’t get reported because we teach our girls that men are perpetrators, but not that women are. I have read far more and experienced far more horrific stories that men have experienced with the women incharge of them as young adolescent males.
In another story I had a friend that would allow her lesbian friend to solicit her daughter because she thought it was amusing but got thoroughly offended when her male friend said the exact same thing to her daughter. I don’t find that fair, at all.

@Pastiche

So the policy should apply to all adults, right? No adult shoud be permitted to sit next to an unaccompanied child because of the danger.

“As a female teacher, I am required to follow certain protocols. . .” it all makes sense now. Many of the teachers I know feel the same way you do. It is because the school administrators and law enforcement continually “educate” teachers on the dangers and continually reinforce the fear through over-protective policies. It is hard to think objectively about the situation when you are constantly being told about the dangers and what to look out for. But you know what? There is no correlation between the increased paranoia and imposed restrictions and an actual decrease in child abductions or molestation. The crime statistics don’t support it. But there is a definite affect on our children (for the worse).

Gosh who realized that airplanes are so dangerous. I flew unaccompanied several times a year every single year from the age of 8 (divorced parents in different states and grandparents in 2 other different states). Never once over all those flights was a rapedby my aisle mates. I must have been the most unappealing child ever. Now my self-esteem is completely destroyed.

“I have been asked to move seats on airplanes by parents and have done so willingly. Who cares where you sit you’re stuck anyway. If my moving made a parent more comfortable then great.”

I have absolutely no problem moving my seat when asked by a parent so that a family can sit together. I have a problem with people being asked to change seats for no reason regardless of who is asking. The ONLY way a parent should be able to dictate who sits next to their child is to buy the ticket next to their child. If you don’t want to accept the risk of a man – you know those people who comprise HALF the population – sitting next to your child without your presence, don’t send your child on a plane unaccompanied. End of story. You can have whatever irrational prejudices you want. They rest of the world need to not cater to them.

It matters where you sit because some people have definite preferences as to where they sit on a plane and specifically request those seats, often paying more for the option of doing so in these days of paying for every little thing on a plane. I always sit in an aisle seat. I’m not going to change to a middle or window seat and be uncomfortable to suit somebody’s irrational prejudice. To allow a family to travel together? Absolutely. To allow someone to continue to exhibit an irrational prejudice? Absolutely not.

Actually, I change that. I will give up my aisle seat for first class. So I think that any parent who wants a male to move away from their child should be required to buy that male a first class ticket. I bet the objections stop right away under that rule.

The mammogram example doesn’t make any sense. There’s no actual harm in women under 50 getting mammograms. There IS harm in treating all men like sexual predators.

It’s not just “on the surface” sexist. It’s sexist. The end result of your story is that….you got some weird hang-up calls? It’s possible your hang-up calls were completely unrelated, but even if they weren’t, this guy didn’t come to your house or try to contact your son face to face. It’s also possible that someone sitting near your son overheard the information and that this man had nothing to do with it.

It seems like the solution to this is teaching kids not to give out private information, not to treat all men like predators.

Thanks for the correction, pdw. It sounds like if it’s a sort of traditional greeting in that season, the aggressive young males were just a little put off at being ignored so they tried again. (And who knows, maybe they were a little lit up and over-enthusiastic? It’s still a bit much to perceive a real threat there.) The original poster over there was certainly a piece of work.

@Cheryl

That is the kind of experience I’m talking about. Thank god your son is safe.

Unfortunately, sociopaths are often very charming and are considered nice guys.

Pastiche is a teacher? Great. Now along with teaching her own children that all males are pedophiles, she is passing along her distorted world view to other people’s children, including their sons. I hope she is a troll, because this is just nauseating to think about.

Pastiche, unfortunately, MY sons will never be safe. My sons are considered predators and will always be under suspicion with never a shred of evidence. Why? Why? Sure, they are only 7 and 10 “now” but at some magic point, they will cross the line and always be thought evilly of. Not because of something that they, or even someone that they know did. No, because of stupid mothers who can’t actually think for themselves. They are subject to having mothers call police if they smile at a baby or little child. Not because they are harboring evil thoughts, no, they only want to do what has helped our species survive – being friendly to others.

Oh, and the only convicted child molester that I personally know, is female. She molested the 10/11 year old boy next door. And went to jail, leaving her own two little boys with their dad. Thank goodness he is a good man. I felt so bad for those boys and their dad. And horrified at her actions.

A rule like this isn’t just sexist, it lacks so much common sense. Goodness, even if Jerry Sandusky was sitting next to a boy on a plane it’s highly doubtful that even he is going to molest the kid right in front of the other passengers, the flight attendant and everybody walking down the aisle. Yes, I know, people are going to ask me, “So would you want YOUR son sitting next to Jerry Sandusky”? My answer would be that Jerry Sandusky is a creep and I would not want him hanging around my kid but there is NOTHING he can do to him on an airplane in front of everybody!

Hmm… does this make Virgin the go-to airline for female pedophiles?

Amazing how people view the world, or men that is, these days! In the 80’s when I was about 9 or 10, I flew from Nebraska to Michigan to visit my grandparents alone for the first time ever. You’ll never believe who I sat in between. That’s right, a father was on my left and a young man (I’d say in his 20’s at the time). Then there was me in the middle. I remember the young man wearing a leather jacket, longer hair and and earring. Kid of looked a little rough. The father seemed like your typical loving father who took his kids to see the captain (I don’t know if you can still do that these days). Then there was me, this shy little girl who kept to herself at that age, so I just sat there playing quietly with my Barbie. We were in the front row, so when the meal came, our trays were in the arms since there was no seat in front of us. Get this, it wasn’t the father, or the stewardess who helped me, but this young man on the right, who helped to get my tray out of the arm of the seat and get my meal ready so I could eat. Needless to say, I made it to Michigan in one piece and absolutely no harm was done! So I say “YAY for men!!!” If my kids ever fly alone on a plane, I’m pretty sure not only the stewardess would help them, but whoever they’re sitting next to would too, regardless of sex! I hope that one day these helicopter parents, businesses, insurance gurus, media, government, and whoever else will soon realize that the human race will de-evolve if they don’t stop feeding off this fear that everybody is out to get all the children!

I am pretty much a free-ranger and flight attendant. My airline has no such policy, but on board we often help customers change seats for various reasons as long as it is a reasonable request. Some reasons are a bit questionable if you’re trying to be strictly pc: religious observance by men not wanting to be seated next to a non-related female, away from someone who is extremely odorous or obese, etc.. In such cases we try to be discreet and are often quite creative in handling these situations without drawing attention to the “non-pc” issue, though of course some in our industry would do well with some sensitivity training. We are in the business of customer service, and if seating someone away from the “offending” passenger, even if it is not totally pc, helps them reduce the misery of sitting in a 19 inch seat for hours and hours, then we do the best we can to accommodate them if it can be done discreetly. On another note, you would be surprised the how often passengers do sneaky things under a blanket or coat regardless how much we walk up and down the isles. Some aren’t even sneaky about it.

That is why I am somewhat torn on this particular issue. Although we have no policy in place, we tend to err on the side of caution with unaccompanied minors. Unaccompanied minors getting lost or sent to the wrong destination made the news and we have become more vigilant. We live in a litigation-happy society and not a few men are fearful of being accused of something unsavory toward a child. And in this scenario the airline would more than likely also be named as defendant in legal case.

As an employee I would voice my opposition to such a policy if it were in place. However, consider the fact that this practice ,if not policy, is probably as much for the man’s and the airline’s protection as the child’s. Until our society no longer lives in pedophile paranoia, sadly this is the reality we face. I will, however, challenge any of my co-workers who wish to change a man’s seat for this particular reason. Our duty is to check the unaccompanied child’s well-being throughout the flight, regardless of who is sitting next to them.

Being a free-range parent is even harder if you are employed working around children. You sometimes have to follow guidelines you disagree with. I can’t imagine being a free-range school teacher.

No one on this site denies that pedophilia exists, nor the statistics on child molestation. What we point out are the very rare statistics about “stranger molestation” and the fact that we are doing more harm to our children and society by keeping our children under constant watch and, in this case, treating men as criminals. A MUCH better approach is to teach our children how to recognize and react to threats and teach adults how to listen and respond to children when they alert us to threats. We’ve all heard about the children who won’t say anything when something bad happens or the adults that don’t believe them when they do. Therein lies the problem. Let’s focus on fixing that.

Me thinks brooke and Pastiche are one in the same.

No, I’m not the same person. Come on people. That’s like me saying that everyone who disagrees with me is the same person. Perhaps Axl and Sara are the same person.

Please, don’t undermine my experiences either. It’s very painful for us. It’s painful that, again, people are saying, “I’m doubtful of those stories.” Everything my daughter has suffered through and everything this little girl who is trapped in her father’s house has to go through should be enough to alarm anyone.

Molestation is a silent epidemic. I don’t think most people know about. It’s shameful and embarrassing because of the way people are treated. For instance, I’m basically being called a liar by Axl and Sara. Wow. Someone who has been verbally belittled on top of sexually abused might shy away from a board like this. No one wants to be called a liar, especially when they aren’t lying, but sharing experiences. And especially if they have been belittled all their lives.

But please, please don’t undermined what I’ve been through. Just because it hasn’t ever happened to you, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.

Axl and Sara, honestly, those comments should have been kept to yourself.

1 out of 3 children will be molested. Most people aren’t TALKING about it. So to assert sarcastically that many families go generations without being molested is a blanketed, personal view. you don’t have any evidence of that, while I have evidence to refute what you are saying.

I am very passionate about the cause. If you do have an experience you’d like to share please email me. The more people who come forward with their stories, the less people will question their validity. No one should have to be ashamed and embarrassed about being sexually violated. The more we start talking about it, the more change can come. Right now too many people are living in silence.

bbb283821@hotmail.com

Also, Brooke, you talk about a “silent epidemic.” I am interested in understanding that better. Did something happen in the last decade to suddenly create an outbreak of pedophiles? Maybe they’ve been around all along and no one reported it? Maybe there is so much talk about it now and urging people to “be on the lookout” and “report suspicious behavior” that otherwise innocent things like a man reading a book in a park or a father hugging his daughter are getting reported and inflating the numbers? Maybe that old man really was just offering that kid a lollipop. I honestly don’t know, but what I do know is that I want to raise strong, confident children who know how to handle themselves in the face of all kinds of dangers of which, pedophilia is just one.

As Lenore so eloquently stated, “You can’t childproof the world, so worldproof your child.”

Brooke, 1 in 3 children will not be molested. That figure is incorrect. The high end estimates are roughly 1 in 5 for females, and 1 in 12 for males (in North America). The low end is 1 in 7 for females, 1 in 20 for males. Of those, 30%+ are family members, and 60% are friends of the family.

So, even assuming the high end figures, the chances of “random guy on airplane” being the stranger who is capable of child molestation would be about 1 in 50 for females, and 1 in 120 for males.

Incidentally, all of this information is easily available and sourced correctly from the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

This sort of baseless fear-mongering is -exactly- why this site is so important.

In response to the link that Brooke posted, I’ll first say that I wasn’t going to respond at all. It is off-topic for one thing. We were talking about whether men should or should not be allowed to sit next to child on an airplane and the link is referring to human trafficking and child-pornography on the Internet. It is also one of the worst examples of overreaction I have seen in a long time, and I thought perhaps it was just posted to bait a response. But, okay, I took the bait and, after thoroughly reading the website and watching the video, I have a few things to say.

First, I was completely appalled by what I saw. No, not the human trafficking or child pornography. I’ve seen those statistics before. It was the fact that Elizabeth Smart was a spokesperson for what I can only describe as the most extremist response imaginable to what is, admittedly, one of the most terrible crimes around. And the numbers are indeed high, but even this website alludes to the fact that most of these girls are immigrants caught up in human trafficking rings and most of the others are endangered runaways (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-11-18/justice/domestic.child.trafficking_1_human-trafficking-abuse-prostitution?_s=PM:CRIME) and these children often come from broken homes. The Elizabeth Smart case, in which a middle-class, white girl was kidnapped from her suburban home, is the rarest of the rare, and yet she has become the spokesperson because middle-class white people see her and get scared and angry and then overreact with statements like “not one more child.”

What this organization is promoting is declaring a national state of emergency (involving FEMA, no less) to gather all of the law enforcement and other available officials to conduct raids on homes where these exploited children are believed to be in order to rescue them. A map is provided by the Wyoming DA’s office showing where these children are believed to be located, based on something only referred to as a computer “serial number” (there really is no such thing, though they may be referring to MAC addresses – more on that in a minute). The information is dubious at best, and is put together by the DA of one state, using information that isn’t clear. I am going to say that the state of Wisconsin does NOT have the same technical resources that the FBI does, and the information on this website does not come from the FBI, that actual federal agency charged with tracking down child pornographers on the Internet. The fact is, it is very difficult to tell with certainty where something is sent from on the Internet. IP addresses are dynamic. MAC addresses (the “serial number” of the network device – usually a router in the home) can be spoofed. These simple tracking methods can be used to find the consumers of child pornography, but not the ones creating it. Those people are much smarter, and do things like upload images to Russian (or other foreign) servers for distribution where the U.S. not only has no jurisdiction, but doesn’t have access to the same tracking tools they might have in the U.S. To find these children, the FBI has to rely on much more sophisticated means than computer IP addresses and serial numbers, they have to perform forensic analysis on photos, they have to pose as traffickers themselves to infiltrate groups that do this stuff. And when the FBI does finally get good information about the whereabouts of a child, they absolutely take immediate action (http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-08/justice/justice_child-porn-raid_1_child-nationwide-sweep-operation-orion?_s=PM:JUSTICE). Sadly, in the overzealous attempt at locking up the consumers of child pornography, DAs miss an opportunity to make deals with those consumers in order to help track the producers, much like law enforcement does with drug users to catch drug dealers.

So doing what this organization wants, declaring a national emergency and conducting raids on homes to rescue children based on bad information can’t result an anything good. First of all, we aren’t likely to find these children and, if anything, law enforcement would tip their hat to the real criminals who will go further into hiding, completely destroying years of investigative work. But beyond that, such an action would surely violate the 4th amendment. And since this website likes to show maps, I have a map of my own. Here is a map showing all of the “wrong door raids” that have occurred, many of which have resulted in the death of innocent people (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/).

Is this what we want? To live in a police state in the hopes that not one more child will be exploited? This is the same kind of fear and anger that results in laws named after children, which don’t work and usually hurt children even more (http://mommyish.com/childrearing/laws-named-after-children-hurt-children/) (http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/24/dead-kids-make-bad-laws).

But then I come back to thinking about Elizabeth Smart and why it bothers me so much, and why I was inspired to write such a long post. I feel like most of the advocacy for laws named after children and the protect.org propsals come from middle-class, suburban white mothers. And this select group of people would be very happy if they could live in their safe, sanitized and gated communities, free of all non-white people, all poor people and all men (since these are the perpetrators of most crimes) and thus be free of all anxiety knowing their children are safe. Of course, this is not the world we live in, nor the world I want to live in. Being a free range parent is about understanding all of the dangers that exist in the world and, despite that, still allowing my children to grow up into healthy, independent adults. When you are not anxious, you are not likely to overreact to bad things happening around you. When you don’t overreact, you can think about practical solutions to real-world problems without declaring states of emergency.

I’m not super religious, but it does help me to remember this prayer:

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.”

Sometimes people focus too much on that second line, and forget the last.

Ben–Those police gave me those numbers. It was actually 1 out of 4 children. I was adding the 1 out of 3 because many people don’t say anything after they are assaulted and based on this website and it’s comments I wouldn’t want to say anything either if I was molested.

Also, statistics can be manipulated. Is it mode or the average? I just looked at two websites that give different stats. Anyone who had to take statistics in colleges knows that the data can be manipulated to suit a certain need. Anyone who has also recently taken a college course know not to cite wikipedia.

I’m just sharing my experiences with you. I’m not trying to put any “fear” into anyone. Even though BOTH my parents had been molested I still placed my daughter in the care of a man. I wish I had not done this. I did this because of people like you telling me that I was overreacting to the threat of pedophilia. In retrospect, I wasn’t over reacting.

http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/tell_others_the_facts.html

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/childabuse/a/05_abuse_stats.htm

http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/child-abuse-and-neglect-statistics.html

“The question of how many children are abused and neglected each year in the United States is seemingly simple, but it does not have an easy answer. Because several national and state agencies collect and analyze different data using different methods, the statistics vary. In addition, not every suspicion or situation of abuse or neglect is reported to child protection services (CPS) agencies. As a result, the number of reports likely underrepresents the number of children who actually suffer from abuse or neglect.”

Brooke, a friendly piece of advice from someone who was in the minority of kids who are molested: stop. For the sake of your child, just stop.

Terrible things happen, and they happen to children. But you know what’s wonderful about kids? They -heal-. I barely remember what happened to me, because my parents treated it like any other childhood injury — they gave me lots of love, made sure nothing was permanently broken, and then sent me on my way.

Am I traumatized? No. Do I have flashbacks, even though what I experienced was violent? No. Do I wander the internet, afraid of “trigger words” and all that? No.

Terrible things happen, and we get over it…if the wounds are allowed to heal. If they’re not picked at, and picked at, and picked at…by people who refuse to let it go.

You’re not doing yourself or your child any favor by focusing so much of your time, attention and passion on this subject. There are a lot of people whose sole focus in life is the protection of children. Sexual abuse against children is waning in our society, and has been for over thirty years.

Don’t let you or your child’s life be defined by the assault, because that’s letting life be defined by the assaulter. It’s letting the bad guy win. Rape is an act of power — don’t give it to them.

My two cents, for what they’re worth.

It is also very inspiring to see that a lot of us have experienced our own childhood traumas, and have moved past it and not let it negatively influence how we raise our own children.

@brooke, what ARE the stats then for how many children are molested on planes? The stats will also have to take into how many kids fly each year (or whatever the time frame of your stats is), so a percentage can be determined.

“A cursory search in Lexis Nexis, a news search engine, turns up 10 instances of child molestation cases aboard airplanes from the past couple of decades, though there have almost certainly been more. It’s likely that many other cases did not make the news, or were never reported by the children.”

“In a majority of the instances, a man switched seats to be next to a child traveling alone. Also, a significant number of the reported molestations occurred on evening flights, when the victim and any potential witnesses were asleep. Several children reported that when the touching began, it seemed accidental or even well intentioned, and only later crossed the line.”

http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-07-15/news/predators-are-free-to-move-about-the-cabin/1/

Pastiche is a troll and is full of s**t. There are plenty of us who have actually been molested and lived to cheerfully greet another day.
As a mother of boys I cry bulls**t on Pastiche. I am perfectly happy to have men sit next to my boys. It’s an effing plane. Kinda public, dontcha think? As someone who was molested, I am well-aware of the scenarios to avoid, and a plane is not one of them. We are all strangers until we meet and greet. My boys are smart. I trust them to leave a situation that makes them uncomfortable. And it effing pisses me off that I will have to one day inform them that their maleness will make them suspect for no good reason at all.

@brooke/pastiche – pedophiles are actually a verifiable and rather stably small portion of the general population. So silent epidemic is so bogus it pisses me off. I would never wish it on my boys – I know full well the impact. But honestly, it’s not the end of the world. If it ever happens to my boys, I will be justifiably homicidal. But I will be damned if I will allow it to define my boys’ existence. That, to me, is by far the greater sin. And I know whereof I speak.

I’ll add a little more for those using statistics to say how common sexual assault of children on a plane could be…

The incident that started this discussion occurred in Australia. Australia isn’t the US, and especially in terms of air-travel. Flying from one city to another isn’t as cheap or readily available as it is in the US, so any US statistics of possible assaults on children would be many-fold higher than they would be here… there just isn’t as many people flying, especially unaccompanied children.

The Virgin policy has no logical or statistical basis, they would be better off banning overweight people as they could fall and crush a child. Another non-logical policy, but at least there are statistically more clumsy overweight people flying than there is peadophiles.

I was an elementary school teacher for 3 years. I know all about the suspicion folks have about being a male teacher.
I’m not a teacher any longer. Why?
After 3 years of being mindful of not being alone with the kids, no touching them, etc., I worked for a principal who threatened to report me for innappropriate behavior if I did not resign. She and I had had disagreements over classroom discipline strategies, recess policies,etc. When hired, she gleefully reported to me that she’s never had to fire a male teacher. I thought that was an odd thing to say, but I then understood why.
I went to some one of the parents and talked to them. They asked me to stay and fight her and the false accusations. (The principal was very unpopular with the families.) After some thought, I decided to resign and leave teaching. I told the parents that even if I win, the taint of being an accused predator was something, I believe, would always be with me. They were sad, but understood.
The day I left, my students gathered around me, trying to give me a group hug. Many of them were crying. Hell, it was hard for me not weep myself.
So, would I recommend any man go into teaching at this time? Not suprisingly, my answer is an emphatic NO. Not until this climate of fear changes.And that really is sad. Many of these kids were desperate for postive male role-models. It was my joyful duty to try to be that kind of teacher. One of the best days of my life was when one of my students volunteered the following:
“Mr. M, do you know why we like you?”
“Thanks! That’s a very nice thing for you to say. Ok, why?”
“Because you talk to us like we’re people.”
My reply was, “Well, you are people! Small people, but still people.”
How could you not miss this job?

I was just certified by my state to be an elementary school teacher. I am male and most elementary schools are in need of males. One of my female classmates told me that the teacher for whom she student taught said that it was “weird” for guys to want to teach elementary school.
Virgin’s attempt to play the odds to avoid messy lawsuits involving a molestation indicate that, like most businesses, they cut corners so they can say something about having “made every attempt to prevent such incidents” instead of actually working on a plan to prevent such incidents.

One of the local national papers ran a fairly sane (especially for them) look at the issue.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/male-presumed-dangerous-20120817-24dtz.html

Interestingly, I was just on a plane with two adorable little girls. One was about 9 and the other was about 7; I’m 45. They were very self-assured, well-behaved, chatty, and interesting. Not only did the airline “allow” us to sit next to each other, but they also allowed us to actually talk! As it happens I’m a composer, and I’d just gotten through with a studio session for some music related to one of their favorite brands. I got out my laptop and gave them a supersecret sneak preview — they loved it!

I also gave them my card and an invitation to get a special deal on the children’s entertainment product when it comes out. Their father wrote, wondering why on earth his kids were bouncing off the walls with excitement. I wrote back, explaining the whole thing, and complimenting him on raising such intelligent, independent-minded, curious kids who can interact so well with adults.

THAT guy is a free-range parent whether he knows it or not. I actually feel a little better about our society after this. (And I’ll be sure to give my little girls plenty of freedom when they’re old enough to fly by themselves.)

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