Uh, Girl Scouts, Isn’t This Form a Little Harsh?

Wow! I’m a GS leader of a pretty tight knit group. I have never handed out a form like that! But, then again, a parent has never been late that I have noticed. Perhaps the form is in response to an ongoing problem with parent pickup?

My mom was almost always late picking me and/or my sister up from anywhere. Often she flat forgot us. I wonder in this day and age how many times I would have been reported as abandoned and what would have come of it all. I certainly hated being persistently forgotten like that. If it would have taught my mom to actually pay attention it would have been better than being forgotten somewhere every few months, and her being late most weeks. But I don’t think multiple trips through CPS would have been less traumatic than sitting on the curb for a long time and having to work up the courage to ask to use the phone for the zillion time to call my dad at work and have him tracked down to come get me two hours later. But the most compassionate solutions were the parents who arranged car pools including me, and the director who asked my mom to just let her send me home with whoever was available.

I get that they want to do something about late pickups. Nobody wants to be stuck waiting for an hour after their job is supposed to be done for the day, and that’s what happens when a parent is late. But holy overreaction batman! There are other ways to incentivize the parents to make every effort to come on time besides threatening to get their kids taken away! My kids’ daycare had a policy of fining parents a dollar a minute starting from 15 minutes past closing time. Now, occasionally, circumstances beyond my control meant I had to pay up. Sucks, but that’s fair, I was forcing someone to stay late after work. But you better believe i was not having daily or even weekly emergencies, because I didn’t want to pay that fine! It was a win-win, because it was enough incentive for parents to do as much as possible to get there on time, but understanding that life happens sometimes and leaving some flexibility for those times, but keeping it annoying enough to think of it only as an absolute last resort, not as an alternate option to arriving on time.

yikes! Sounds like some girl scout troop leader was having a bad day :/ I am the co-troop leader of my daughter’s Daisy troop and I would never send a letter out like that. But if I had mom’s who were habitually late I would probably have a face to face chat. It’s about communicating, people

While the wording is harsh and likely a little over the top I do have some sympathy. I’m a Girl Guide leader and while it doesn’t happen often having a child not picked up can put the leaders in a bad situation.

Our meetings end at 8:30, we have to be out of the meeting place by 9. It is cold in the winter. If a parent hasn’t come to pick up their daughter by the time we’re leaving, you can be sure we are calling the parents and the emergency contacts. We’ve never had to go so far as to call the police but if we were unable to contact the parents I can see how we might be put in that situation. People forget to update their contact information when it changes. Without the parents permission we can’t drive the girl home, or take her to one of our homes to wait. Standing outside in the cold is only a viable solution for so long.

I’m a new Scout leader and I was taken aback at all of the rules that the Girl Scouts have now – can’t meet in people’s homes, transportation releases, and heaven forbid a girl be alone with an unrelated male. I bet if this troop leader had been able to say “if your child isn’t picked up within 20 minutes of the end of the activity, please collect her from my house” there would be no issue. yes, the parents should be respectful of the troop leader’s time but the girl scout rules prevent the implementation of a perfectly reasonable solution.

Reported as abandoned. That means child services and that means an investigation. Because you know…. Every abandonement case has to be reported and investigated , rules are rules!! Families with problems other then child abuse ( changing sheduels at work, poverty, parent with mental issues) would take their kid out of the Girl Scout group while these kids probably need that group the hardest.

I almost always agree with you but in this case I must disagree. This isn’t too harsh for parents who refuse to pick kids up on time. If a parent calls, it’s one thing and when they are consistantly extremely late it becomes another. In the area I live in, this is a real problem.

Ugh! I am a Girl Scout Leader and school coordinator for Girl Scouts and I want to be sure to specify this is ANOTHER CASE of a leader who is wildly out of control. None of this out of control, hysterical stuff is from Girl Scout Council, at least in no documentation I have ever seen! I hope potential leaders and scouts aren’t turned off to all of scouting by these reports of rogue leaders and their nutty “safety precautions.”

My gosh there is so much pressure put on parents. I know it seems like picking your kid up on time might not seem like a lot but things happen. Flat tire. Emergency with another kid. Doctors appointment runs an hour late. Signal problems on the train. Presidential motorcade shuts highway down for an hour. All these things have made me late once in the past. That is where community is supposed to come in–such as your child goes home with another kid until you can get there. But with the added complexity of “pre authorization” you are SOL. So every mundane pick up becomes practically a life or death situation. Get out of the dentist on time or your kid goes to the cops! Oh no, flat tire–your kids are going to the cops! No wonder parents are so stressed out all the time.

There is no reason for it to “get to this point” where you are calling the cops. I maybe can see kicking the kid out of scouts after repeated problems with the parent picking the kid up. BUT I can NEVER see a reason to call the police and say the kid was abandoned.

HOWEVER, in reality, kids with parents who are habitually over 30- minutes late probably have other issues at home. It might be a great opportunity for a scouting leader to step up and help fill that void for a young person. After all, that is really the spirit of how these organizations are supposed to help kids and build community.

Scouting is not supposed to be an excuse to have the government examine your life and take away your parental rights. No matter how much you inconvenience another parent who happens to be wearing a vest with badges on it.

The thing that I object to is the “call the police” mentality.

I think the policy would be totally fine if you replaced “report child as abandoned” with “child will not be allowed to continue participating in the Troop”… perhaps some laddered layer of offenses… first offense of 30+ minutes late pickup, child cannot come to the next event, second offense – the next month, third offense – permanent ban.

This will get the message across to parents, won’t overly penalize a kid for a single time when parents get sidetracked or way-laid on the way to pickup and most importantly won’t involve the POLICE and the GOVERNMENT in a simple matter of people being inconsiderate or inconvenienced.

Girl Scouts should not be held prisoner. Any that are should be released into their own custody.

Isn’t one thing the scouts are supposed to teach self-reliance?
And isn’t a key part of that being able to find your own way home?

My parents made me wait to be picked up most of the time. The idea was that my parents’ time was more important than mine and I should wait for them. If walking home is too far, kids could walk to the nearest grocery store, church, park, wherever and wait for the parents there.

Reading the comments, there seems to be an expectation that children should not have to wait very long for parents because something might happen or maybe that it is wrong to make kids wait. That is silly. Instead of telling parents that kids not picked up “in time” will be turned over the cops, tell the parents that if the kid isn’t waiting on the curb here, to check the library a block over.

“After 30 minutes, the police will be called and the child will be reported as abandoned.”

Way to look out for the best interests of the child.

I’ve coached youth sports and volunteered for school clubs for years and have dealt with late pickups. I have a roster with emergency contacts. I text the parent, ask what to do or for an ETA knowing traffic can be horrible. I can kick around a soccer ball for a few more minutes or play kids vs. coach. I love the kids I coach, that’s why we have our kids involved in community sports- friendship, fun, and fitness. I would NEVER call the police on a child. If I had a repeat late pick up, I would work out a carpool or alternative arrangement with the parent. Most people want to come up with solutions for their kids extracurricular activities that don’t involve POLICE or CPS.

To send a notice out to ALL parents in the troop sets such a negative tone for what should be a positive experience. If the troop is having a problem with a specific parent, talk to THAT parent. Don’t send out nasty, overly controlling messages to parents who are just trying to get their kids involved with the community. This is how your loose scouts.

Even if a parent is chronically late do any of you ACTUALLY think warrants a CHILD ABANDONMENT REPORT or even the threat thereof? Are people’s lives THAT busy and important that they’d rather contact the police than be put out for 30 minutes or an hour? It may be a scare tactic and they may never put it into effect, but I would be outraged as a parent to be threatened with that. Really? There is no possible step between calling an emergency contact and police reports? If a parent is late so frequently that it’s disruptive, kick their kid out of the troop. Scouting is not an inalienable right. It may suck for the kid to be punished for the parent, but better punished by losing some badges and field trips than involving the police.

I’m going to go ahead and hope that someone is just pulling our leg with this story.

@lulu64, I would be very surprised if people make up stories to send to Lenore.

My kids’ late room monitor said she’d call the cops if a kid was left much past the pick-up time. I believe her.

I’m usually pretty good about picking up my kids on time (more or less), but today I forgot I was supposed to go get them from horse camp at 12:00. I realized it at 12:15 and it’s a 15 minute drive. Oh well. They gave my kids a couple extra stalls to clean out and called it good. They did smell rather poopy afterwards (as did my car). I guess I deserved that.

With the scout issue, I wonder if the problem is that people are afraid / not allowed to give kids rides home or wherever? Or it’s impractical because they have to have specific age-appropriate seats in their car etc.? I mean, I could see not being keen on waiting an hour for another parent when you probably have to go put your own baby to bed or something. It would be nice if leaving a note on the door “Janie’s mom, call ___, I took her to my house” would be an option.

No it isn’t harsh …it is a reflection of the many hoops volunteer groups must jump to avoid liabilities and personal civil suits against their volunteers.

As a coach our insurance covered “all authorized activities and functions” we even added a personal vehicle rider b/c of the number of coaches asked & expected to car pool to games …after a local group got hit because one of their coaches was broadsided by a drunk driver while doing a favor and dropping a kid off.

The 30 minute rule may seem controlling and harsh w/o considering the issues and limitations organizational volunteers face. The majority of issues revolve around parents who enroll their children in activities with unrealistic expectations about the role and services the groups volunteer participants ought to be providing beyond the agreed organizational purpose.

My all time favorite …we don’t understand or appreciate the difficulties of family time management because…fill in with your favorite excuse, justification or rationale.

Volunteer groups can’t charge overtime like a daycare facility and are expected to begin/end program meetings per pre-defined meeting times. Volunteer organizations are esteemed as a low cost alternative to expensive private alternatives while their volunteers are denigrated as lowly unprofessional menials placed on this earth for the sole purpose of meeting whatever demands self-entitled budget conscious folks throw at them.

My first year coaching included lengthly delays after 10/16 practices. The next year the 30 minute rule was added to squad policies. Most parents were on time and a few took advantage post-practice clean up to squeeze in an extra errand etc. Communicated exceptions to the rule were routinely accommodated with only one parent forcing me to actually call the local sheriff to report their child abandoned.

This parent ignored post practice p/u reminder calls on a regular basis until the day my child broke her wrist and patiently waited till the end of practice and 40 minutes more before I called 911. With the other coach absent that day our groups insurance became a huge factor….I’d have needed to get a certified coach from another squad if my child’s (or anyone else’s) needs were urgent enough to leave before practice ended…so she waited. Dragging the other kid along to the ER wasn’t an option since it would not meet the criteria of group related activity.

So I make no apologies for defending the 30 minute rule or refusing to accept personal liability for anyone else’s child as a condition of choosing to volunteer in my community.

No I don’t think it is harsh. I also don’t think it is directed at the parent that is late one time. IT is directed at people that are always late not 5 minutes late by 1/2 an hour to 3 1/2 hours.

The school I worked at got out at 2:30. We had parents that didn’t pick up their kids till 6:00 pm. There was after care, with a sliding scale but they didn’t want to use that. It took the principal calling the cops to pick up the kids and their parents dealing with the fall out to solve the problem.

We had the same problem with kids in various after school clubs. The parents wouldn’t pick up until hours after the club was over. Which meant two teachers were stuck sitting with the kid. They couldn’t even go do work in their rooms because they had no way of having the parents get in touch with them, because front office staff was gone. We had to fight to get 3 strikes rule. 3 late pickups and you were out.

Something is wrong when the assumption behind all of these rules and insurance policy requirements is that children simply cannot be left alone to wait. Because children CAN wait. They CAN entertain themselves. They CAN interact safely with strangers.

When I waited (and waited) after school for my parents to pick me up, there were no teachers sitting with me. I was expected to wait. And I was expected to know how to make a phone call if I needed to call my parents.

P.S., If there needs to be a way to enforce pick-up times, then I think the fine system is a good option, OR the parent could be voluntold to do a mundane task, like say, stuffing flyers for an upcoming event (for example, a Girl Scout jamboree), if they aren’t able to pay the fine. Also, I think that ultimately, the parents’ wishes should be honoured, even if that’s “Let my kid walk,” or “If I’m running late, send my kid home with whoever’s available.” I know it sounds radical, but is it really that sinister, the idea of a child going home with *gasp* the parents of a friend from Girl Scouts or ballet class? That happened to me once in grade one–my mom was late picking me up from school (during a snowstorm, to add to the drama), so my friend and I walked to her house, I called my mom from there, life moved on as normal, and I grew just a little more resilient that day. It turned out that my mom hadn’t forgotten about me; she’d just gotten stuck at some volunteer meeting, but the school didn’t make a federal case of it–in fact, they didn’t even know, so my friend and I solved the problem ourselves, at six years old. Of course, this was before all the crazy pick-up and drop-off policies, when the school didn’t take an interest in how we came and went, or with whom, except for the question of “School bus, or not?” Those in the “not” group were assumed to be walking.

Marie, how long did you wait? How frequently? How many times did you have to watch the place you knew and feel safe get locked up. How many times were you still waiting at 10pm at night? How many times did you wait more than 2 hours, how about 3 or more?

How much hell did you pay if you weren’t waiting in the designated spot exactly when mom/dad pulled up even if they were 3 hours late?

I guess that’s another advantage of living in a bike culture: much fewer kids require picking up, as they can come and go by themselves…

Perhaps there should be a penalty of some sort for parents who are regularly late, but involving the police is waaay too much for something that could be bad luck for one time.
And of course they could encourage carpooling and have the never-on-time parent do, eh, something other than driving the kids.

The police are not mediators. They are enforcers of law, which they do through arresting people. The fact that this Scout leader is threatening to have parents put in jail for being 30 minutes late is beyond the pale and shows gross disregard for the child (how is having their parent arrested good for anyone)?

Why not just threaten to kick them out of scouts if they are late? Because if they call the cops on them they can be fairly certain the family won’t be returning anyway, or not in any form where the leader would want them in his/her troop.

While I agree that the first choice should be to simply kick the kids with offending parents out of the troup, does anyone know if this is even possible? Girl Scouts is a national organization dedicated to inclusiveness with specific rules as to enrollment to follow. I assume that there are valid reasons for removing specific kids from the organization, but I don’t know if the repeated failure of the parents to pick their children up on time is actually one of them. It should be, but that doesn’t mean that it is. If it isn’t, should the entire troup be shut down because a handful of parents can’t manage to pick their kids up reasonably on time?

Re marie: The fault lies closer to ever increasing litigation with huge awards for the smallest fault prompting the rules and purposeful avoidance of insurance policy exclusion clauses. As a volunteer what I allow and how I choose to raise my own kids is irrelevant to organizational policies or participant demands. CYA is the first rule of volunteering and CYA doesn’t stand for Civic Youth Association. The second rule is ‘reason’ takes a second seat to retaliatory Discrimination Lawsuits for refusing outrageous demands with participant parents pushing claims of ‘reasonable’ accommodation.

Re Emily: many people are assuming “As the parent/guardian of the minor noted below, you are responsible for her transportation to and from her Girl Scout activities or the bus when a trip is involved.” is limited to parent/guardian door to door chauffeuring which isn’t the case. The quoted policy doesn’t define ‘transportation’ thus respecting parental rights to define the method of transportation on any given day; with flexibility when a flat tire or popped chain forces a pedal power kid to use the shoe leather express or grab a ride with a peer etc. It allows for ‘courtesy notes’ from helicopter parents while accommodating much more laid back parenting styles.

The sports league board approved the 30 minute rule after their attorney reworded it as an acceptable squad policy for any coach wishing to utilize it. The rule was never intended as a ‘threat’ or punishment for misbehaving parents. Its purpose was to define a relevant and directly related method to meet our obligation to participant safety when parents ignored their ‘transportation’ obligation.

Through 11 years the policy resulted in one CPS investigation and proved to be an invaluable resource on more than one occasion…the most memorable was the time a coaches routine p/u reminder call was answered by an official asking for information about the parent killed in an auto accident. The policy allowed the coach to hand off the child to folks with training vs the basket case emergency contact.

Andrea, yes!!!!

It is bizarre to involve the police in such a matter and I think it should be treated like a false burglar alarm–with a $100 fine. Of course where I live in Philadelphia you’d never get the police to respond to such a frivolous call because they are too busy serving and protecting against crime so I guess I don’t have to worry about it.

What kind of culture volleys all of their inconveniences to the police force? This is all tied together with competitive parenting (good parents are never late and bad parents need the police to get involved) and the self righteous culture of “if you can’t be on time to pick up your kids from activities that you shouldn’t have had kids in the first place.”

I have to admit that some of the stories I’ve read here opened my eyes to how bad late pick ups can be. But if this troop’s policy is the result of one or two bad actors then kick those bad actors out of the organization. And if it’s not permitted by the Girl Scouts to kick someone out of the organization for such egregious behavior then the problem is the organization. It seems that the organization or the particular leaders here want to make a grand gesture to highlight their righteous indignation.

These policies also are related as someone else said to CYA. They don’t want to be sued because guarantee if the parent is late and the leader leaves and little Suzy goes missing or gets hurt, the leader will be the one sued. But they also don’t want to sit there waiting on the parent for an hour either.

I think most leaders would be fine with the parent calling and saying the car broke down can they wait on them? That is not what this is for. This is for the habitually always late parents and I approve it being used on those parents if kicking out the kid is not an option. They may not be allowed to kick kids out.

I think letting kids old enough that can do so walk home is fine if that is previously arranged. I am okay with sending the kid home with another friend if that is previously arranged. But they can’t just do that without getting parent’s permission. Because if something happens, again the leader gets sued.

Some parents use stuff like this as free babysitting and will take advantage if you let them. So putting that policy in place just CYAs and that way if the parent is taking advantage over and over-you are not wrong to follow the policy and call police. I doubt they strictly enforce it, but the policy is signed off on and there if they need to use it. I have no problem with that.

No excuse for not picking your kid up on time short of “I was in a traffic accident and knocked unconscious” or “i was in the ER while my other kid bled out”. Even then, emergency numbers are there for a reason, and maybe people should put a little more thought into it. I don’t buy the whole “things just happen” bs. Do you get to work on time every day? If something is keeping you from that, do you move heaven and earth to notify them? So why can’t the same sense of urgency apply when it comes to picking up your children?

I have been on both sides of this, as parent and as group leader. The excuses you hear will make your head explode, you can talk to them individually to no avail, and then you have the parents who actually do believe their time is more important than yours. The doctors appt ran late excuse is ridiculous…everyone in the free world knows this is pretty common, so plan for it! Have a plan B! Your kids are your #1 responsibility!

I’ve had parents show up hours late to pick up their kid from a play date and offer no apology, just “oh you know how it is”. Well, no, actually I don’t. I’m on time and if it looks like I won’t be I will make arrangements, and you can be damned sure the emergency contacts are current and reachable in case I am knocked unconscious in an accident.

For habitually late parents, what about requiring them to stay the whole time with their sweetums, if they really wanted to be in the club? That way, when it was time to go, the parent would be there. Maybe require it for 3 meetings and then do a trial to see if they would show up on time.

If handed a form like the one above, I would go to every parent in the troop and have them sign on as an emergency contact. That way, if I got a flat tire or rear ended like I did the other day, I could call someone and tell them to take my kid home. Or, if out of cell service, the last parent there could take my kid.

I’m a leader of a 2nd grade troop and a co-leader of a 3rd grade troop. You would be absolutely astonished at how many parents think that scouts = free babysitting. I have had a child sent home from school (without my prior authorization or consent!) at 3:15 for a meeting that didn’t start until 4:30. I’ve had parents show up more than 30 minutes late to pick up their kids. And while it hasn’t come to the point where I need to send home a note like this, I can see how the one seriously problem parent in my troop might lead me to do something along these same lines if she doesn’t get her shit together.

There are people in the world who appreciate volunteers, and there are people in this world who look at a volunteer like me and say to themselves, “How can I take advantage of her in every possible way?” Unfortunately, notes like this are for the second type, who often ruin leaders like me for everyone else, because we get sick of the endless B.S. that those parents send our way and quit.

I was advised in training that if a parent is chronically late, bringing the police into it may be a necessary step. Because of those second type of parent. Sad but true.

(Other comments, TL;dr)

>>For habitually late parents, what about requiring them to stay the whole time with their sweetums, if they really wanted to be in the club? That way, when it was time to go, the parent would be there. Maybe require it for 3 meetings and then do a trial to see if they would show up on time.<<

That might work, if the parent was willing, and was given a specific job to do during the meetings they were there but I can see three unfortunate outcomes:

1. Parent refuses to bring Child to Girl Scouts at all during those meetings, either because it's not feasible with the family's schedule, or because the parent just isn't willing. Some parents might turn it around on the child and say, "YOU got suspended from Girl Scouts for the next three meetings, because YOU were bad."

2. Parent tries to help, but doesn't know all the ins and outs of Girl Scouts, and ends up being more of a hindrance.

3. Child is embarrassed to have Parent there (whether or not Parent tries to intervene and micromanage Child), and perceives it as a punishment for her.

Erica: not me. Not when I know I have to be somewhere on time. I am an over the top punctual person and if I can pull it off with special needs kids probably anyone can. I have good time management and I air on the side of being too early and therefore even if something runs longer, I still have time built in.

Those people that try to plan everything out to the minute are always going to end up being late. If you have one hour before you have to pick her up from Girl Scouts then do something that takes 20 minutes and 20 minutes. That gives you some extra time built in if something runs over. But don’t think you can pull off a 40 minute and a 20 minute errand and still be on time. Won’t happen most likely and that would be your error.

My parents were sometimes late to pick me up from these things. When I was about 10, I waited over an hour for my mom to pick me up outside a high school gym after one of my basketball games. I don’t remember exactly, but the coach probably left with his son as soon the equipment was packed, and he wouldn’t have thought twice about leaving a 10yo to wait. And why would he think twice about that? It wasn’t a favorite childhood experience sitting there in the cold night, realizing my mom forgot about me, and being disappointed every time a pair of headlights didn’t turn into the high school parking lot. But it certainly wasn’t scary at all.

This makes me wonder – maybe we’re starting to see the first wave of parents raised in our ‘modern,’ paranoid fashion? This would explain why we’re seeing such entitlement to assume “I’ll just let that volunteer keep watching my kid for an hour,” given that they’ve spent their life being catered to, having their parents step in when they have trouble in school or work, etc. Maybe these are precisely the adults we’re worried about helicopter parenting producing? This, in turn, leads to an extreme response.

My question is – maybe there really is no way out. If we have helicoptered kids raising helicoptered kids, think of how self-perpetuating the whole thing is. While the response here is extreme and illustrates the mentality of ‘the police are useful for everything’ – a mentality I expect also grew out of a childhood where nothing could go wrong, so that anything going wrong is a catastrophe requiring 911 – consider also the background assumptions. Begin with “parents are responsible for transportion.” Are they? Maybe at age 5, but there needs to be a certain age where children are responsible for getting home – or, at the very least, where it’s not the volunteer’s problem who is responsible for arranging transportation.

Then we have the assumption that, if the parents don’t show up, that responsibility transfers to the Girl Scouts. Again, reasonable at age 5, but at age 10, let the volunteer go home – but our society has decided that, until age 40 or so, someone has to bear responsibility for you.

@Puzzled–You may be on to something there. Helicoptered kids grow up to be helicopter parents/helicoptering adults working with kids, because they’ve never experienced anything different, so they think it’s normal. As for the “responsible for transportation” thing, though, I’d say that age is only one factor. Others include distance, location, availability of public transportation, time of day or night, and weather. I mean, I’m an adult, and my steel band teacher still gives me rides home, because I don’t have a car, the steel band meets in a sketchy part of downtown that’d be a fair walk from my home, it’s usually dark when rehearsal lets out, and public transit only runs once an hour in the evenings and on Sundays–and the steel band rehearses on Thursday evenings, and Sunday afternoons, because it’s the only time the church is available. However, that doesn’t mean it’s not safe for a ten-year-old to walk a few blocks home from school in broad daylight, or, as you said, half a block to a Girl Scout meeting/event when the meeting location is visible from the house. In fact, come to think of it, when my friend and I walked to her house after school in grade one when my mom didn’t pick me up, we were six, so that’d be Daisy age (or Spark age in Canada), and her house wasn’t far (maybe three blocks away from the school), but you definitely couldn’t see it from there…..AND it was snowing. So, it blows my mind that your daughter is (I think) ten years old, and her Girl Scout leader thinks it’s “too dangerous” for her to walk half a block alone in good weather. I mean, wasn’t the original purpose of Girl Scouts to foster independence, by teaching skills like making campfires, hiking, swimming, boating, wilderness first aid, and things of that nature? How can that happen if the new M.O. is “constant adult supervision from Daisy to eighteen?”

I am the one who gave the form to Lenore. The form is used as far as I know in all of New Jersey. The form is given out as part of the new member package.

The troop my daughter is in meets right after school. They do allow children to go to aftercare after the meeting. There is a different form that parents can have their children released on their own.

Emily, I think you have me confused with someone else; I don’t have a daughter, 10 or otherwise. Anyway, of course we all have trouble with transportation – but when your steel band teacher drives you home, is that an arrangement you made, or one your parents made? I’m not saying we have to do everything by ourselves, I’m questioning just where the responsibility lies – but more so, being told by the Girl Scouts where the responsibility lies, rather than deciding it within the family. I’m also challenging the assumption that the troop leader needs to assume responsibility if the parents fail – it’s nice, but it’s also symptomatic of a social trend where people need someone ‘responsible for them’ at all times and can never be asked “so, how are you going to get home?”

My main point, though, is that the entitled parents everyone’s talking about could very well be previously helicoptered children, now irresponsible adults.

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@Puzzled

” I’m questioning just where the responsibility lies — but more so, being told by the Girl Scouts where the responsibility lies, rather than deciding it within the family. I’m also challenging the assumption that the troop leader needs to assume responsibility if the parents fail — it’s nice, but it’s also symptomatic of a social trend where people need someone ‘responsible for them’ at all times and can never be asked “so, how are you going to get home?””

That’s the nut…parents are lawfully obligated to shelter, feed, clothe and educate their offspring. They are free to choose how they meet those lawful obligations including if, when and how’ they share ‘care and control’ of the child.

The 30 minute rule is intended to define the boundary of where the the group begins and ends their commitment to ‘care and control’ the child. This form makes it clear that the decision regarding method of transportation is absolutely a family vs organizational decision. It’s ironic that parents opting to supplement their lawful obligation with religious, civic, sport etc. activities consider the 30 minute rule to be some sort of intrusive infringement on their rights.

As a troop leader who is taken advantage of by a few lazy, inconsiderate parents, so many of these comments really offend me. Why would anyone suggest that it’s perfectly acceptable for me, the troop leader, take the child to my own home if she’s not picked-up within 30 mins of meeting end? (AND can’t get a hold of anyone via phone.) After the troop meeting, I must get home, feed my family, and get my other kids to their own activities and practices. I don’t have those extra 30 minutes to spare. So, I guess the question is: do you prefer I disband the troop completely and take scouting away from all the girls…or can you hold to your commitment to pick your child up on time? This has nothing to do “free range” parenting…nor “penalizing” the late parent. My family and I have things to do and I simply don’t have time to babysit your child.

As for the comment about “filling the void” for a child whose family may not have it together?? Actually, I think I’m already doing that (to some extent) by simply establishing this troop and giving your daughter a unique opportunity to explore the world of scouting, and encouraging them to become thinkers and leaders. But I am NOT a social worker, nor am I qualified to get involved with any family’s problems.

My time with your child ends at meeting end. Period. I do not expect to be paid, or even thanked. Leading a troop is a way I give back to my community. However, I do expect to be treated with respect. The children respect me…so why shouldn’t the handful of chronically late, forgetful parents? (Seriously…WHO forgets about their own 8 year old child???) Do emergencies happen now and again? Of course…but be considerate and call me, so we can discuss how to handle the situation. For the most part, I’m happy to help you in a pinch.

Finally, if I drop your child off at your home with no one home and leave a note, *I* can be prosecuted for child abandonment.

Scouting is not day care nor a babysitting service.

“Begin with “parents are responsible for transportion.” Are they?”

Absolutely! Until my child is no longer my legal responsibility, I am responsible for transportation. How I choose to exercise that responsibility will vary based on situation. I may choose to say “yes, you can do X, but you have to find your own way there.” Or I may dictate how my child will get to am from X. It will depend on what, where and when X is. Either way, I still expect to be a part of the discussion as to whether X is a place Jr. should go and how Jr. is going to get there if so. Even once Jr. is driving, I control the keys and where and when that car goes so I am still responsible for transportation; it is now just a supervisory role.

“if that’s the intent of the 30 minute rule, the form should just say ‘after 30 minutes, it’s not our problem’ rather than ‘after 30 minutes, we decide you’re an unfit parent and call the police.'”

Calling the police in this situation is NOT a decision that the parents are unfit – that decision is for the police and/or CPS. It is a decision that I am not going to be responsible for this situation any more. It is no different than if I call animal control for a dog that is loose in my yard. I don’t actually think you are a bad pet owner because your dog got out, but I am also not willing to take responsibility for your dog in your absence so I am handing it over to an authority who will.

These are NOT parents who have made a decision that it is okay for their children to be unattended until they get there. In fact, they fully expect someone to cater to them and mind their child. And since these people have huge entitlement complexes, they WILL be screaming a million different ways if you leave their child alone and you will spend hours dealing with them and the Girl Scout organization over their complaints. Ultimately, you may win the battle, but at the cost of hours of your time. Sorry, I see no reason to deal with this either.

Donna, that implied liability is exactly what I’m opposing. I can recognize that the law exists and still oppose it – that’s why I said that this whole conflict arises from larger social issues. And I completely agree that leaving your kids and expecting the scout leader to watch them is part of an entitlement mentality and unacceptable – and I think it should be impossible, in that the law shouldn’t let you throw your responsibility onto other people.

“She took the responsibility by agreeing to be a scout leader with the understanding that said responsibility ends only when someone arrives to take over the responsibility, not when the clock strikes 7pm.”

That should really say “that said responsibility only ends when it safe for that responsibility to end, not when the clock strikes 7pm.” There are certainly situations where it is safe to allow a child to find her own way home or wait until a parent arrives. However, in situations where it is not, the onus is on the person who currently has responsibility for the child to wait until someone else responsible takes over – be that by waiting for the parents or calling the police.

And it isn’t an implied liability. It is expressly written right into the laws – at least in any state laws I’ve ever read. There is no legal ability to leave a child in a dangerous situation just because the allotted time for you to be responsible has ended.

Oh, and it still strikes me that not too long ago, this didn’t arise at all. Why is that? I don’t mean that parents showed up on time – I mean that scoutmasters didn’t even wonder where the kids went, a lot walked or biked home…

Again I am okay with having that on the form because like I said it might scare parents into not taking advantage of the situation and thinking they can show up whenever they feel like it.

In practice it should only be used when no emergency contact can be reached and the parents are really really really late. After that happening once, depending on the parent’s reason for not answering the phone and none of the other emergency contacts not answering and the reason why they were late-I may or may not ask them to leave the troop or tell them from then on they have to stay during the meeting.

That seems more than reasonable to me and probably would to anyone that is not the type to be the offender in question.

“The issue, though, is that the liability isn’t limited to cases where it would be dangerous, due to age or circumstances, to leave the child. The liability will be just as high if leaving them is perfectly safe.”

Which is simply the same societal argument for why parents should not be held liable for leaving them home alone or in a car when doing so is perfectly safe. Scout leaders are simply being held to the same ridiculous over-protective standards as parents today. But I can’t blame them for living up to it. It is one thing to say “I am going to parent as I want to and nothing is going to stop me, even the law.” It is completely another to expect a volunteer scout leader to risk their freedom and their right to raise their own children for some ideal that isn’t even what the parents of said children want. It is the same reason that I am often more helicopter with other people’s children than I am my own. Their parents expect it and how those children turn out in life just isn’t a big enough concern of mine to risk my family.

“That said, I still don’t agree that calling the police and reporting a child as abandoned is a) not judgmental and b) an acceptable thing to do when the child is not, in fact, abandoned.”

First, how do you definitely know that the child has not been abandoned if you haven’t spoken to anyone who has said they are on their way to get the child? By abandoned, I don’t necessarily mean the choice to be abandoned; this “abandonment” could be a result of an accident. If I am in a serious car accident on the way to pick-up, it is very possible that nobody will be looking for my child for days or weeks. I’m single and self-employed so nobody is going to be hunting me down as missing immediately. The closest hospital has my emergency contact (my mother) on file through previous visits and they will hopefully eventually call, but my mother is not kept abreast of our daily activities so would not know where to go get my child (and she is out of state much of the time anyway). I’ve never stepped foot in the other hospital in town and, if I was taken there, they would have zero information on me to contact anyone. My child is effectively abandoned and I’d much prefer her with the police than sitting on a street corner downtown.

Second, I don’t know why they are not choosing to simply throw kids out. Probably because they don’t want to keep a child even the first time this happens due to their own family commitments. Their only other options are to never take responsibility (ie parents all have to stay) or to find someone else to take responsibility. It sounds like they try to find someone less dire than the police first, but ultimately that is the default. I am having real problems feeling any sympathy whatsoever for the parents here. If you don’t want the police called, pick up your kid within a half an hour of time or pickup your cellphone and call. This is not an onerous or unreasonable parenting requirement. I do feel sympathy for the kids, but my sympathy is really that they are stuck with totally crappy parents.

“Oh, and it still strikes me that not too long ago, this didn’t arise at all. Why is that?”

Parent pickup wasn’t as common because it was unusual for kids to be involved in many activities and even rarer for those activities to be outside of walking distance and at night. Today activities are more spread out and often take place in the evening because everyone works. My daughter can walk/bike to swim team (and nobody would stop her from doing so), but all her other activities are not walkable due to location and/or time. I can’t think of a single kid in her Girl Scout troup who lives within reasonable solo walking distance for their age, especially considering it is dark by the end for much of the year. We’ve built our societies around cars and that includes children activities.

That said, I can’t recall a single activity I was in where parents who did pick up (I lived in a very rural area where walking wasn’t feasible for many for several years) were regularly more than 30 minutes late. My parents were usually last and they were never that late. I think the very recent entitlement complex is pushing pick up times later and later.

Discussions like this get a little weird because we each have our own children in mind. Some of us are picturing kindergartners or preschoolers and some of us are picturing fifth graders. When a parent hears the suggestion that the child simply wait outside the building, and they imagine their four-year-old waiting outside stripclubs, well, no wonder the suggestion seems crazy.

Donna, you said, My child is effectively abandoned and I’d much prefer her with the police than sitting on a street corner downtown.

Sure, I suppose. But your daughter surely knows who else she can call for a ride because I assume you aren’t raising her to be helpless.

And yes, of course if the rules demand pickup within 30 minutes, the kids should be picked up on time. I agree that “making” other adults wait with your kids just because you can’t keep an eye on the time, that is rude.

Letting your kids wait for 30 minutes or even longer is not unreasonable, though. Raising kids to believe THEY should never be inconvenienced by parents who have lives of their own…THAT is the snowflake thing.

Making sure your kids have an alternate plan (call Aunt Kate, walk to the library, sit down on the curb and do homework, call the cops because I must surely be dead) if you are late…that is the Free Range thing.

When the world agrees that adults should never let children wait and that children should never be expected to sort out their own difficulties, I think that is a sign that we have snowflakes raising snowflakes.

If there is a problem with a parent who is habitually late, then it is time to figure out how to deal with that parent, that child. That’s not the time to threaten to call the cops on the rest of the parents. Talk to the parent (or, better: ALL the parents) and tell them “if you arrive to pick up your kid and no one is here, call this number to find out who took your kid home.” Calling the cops is a way to teach the problem parent a lesson; it isn’t a way to make sure the child gets home safely.

P.S., I forgot to mention, nobody was inconvenienced by either of the scenarios I described, because, since I was a (young) volunteer at the YMCA beginning at twelve, and looked after younger children, nobody thought I needed constant supervision when not volunteering. When my friend got forgotten after band practice, that was during high school, so again, not a huge deal, although our senior band rehearsed in the evenings, and therefore let out after dark for most of the school year (junior band met right after school). The Middlest Sister story I linked in my previous post, probably happened sometime in the 80’s, before people started treating children under some arbitrary (but gradually increasing) age like checked baggage.

Emily – HUGE difference between high school and kindergarten, which is the age Girl Scouts starts. If this letter had been handed out to high school, or even middle school, band kids, I’d think it was ridiculous, but it isn’t ridiculous when you are dealing young kids. Since we weren’t told the age of girls in this particular troup, it is as possible that it is a troup of Daisies (age 5-7) as it is that it is a troup of Cadettes (age 11-14). We have no idea.

@Donna–I know that Girl Scouts starts with Daisies (age 5-7), because Girl Guides in Canada operates the same way, except the first level is called Sparks (also for 5-7’s). However, I was objecting to the idea of having that same blanket rule of “30 minutes, or we call the cops” for kids of all ages, any time of day, regardless of the weather, proximity of the meeting location to the Scout’s home, et cetera. I live in a safe neighbourhood, right around the corner from a church (as in, you can see the church from the backyard), and just up the street from two more. Sparks/Daisies starts at age five, and I think it’d be perfectly safe for a five-year-old to walk to any of those churches (or at least the around-the-corner one), at least during daylight hours, barring extreme weather conditions (thunderstorm, blizzard, etc).

Donna, I’m not saying the scoutmaster should take the legal liability on – I’m saying the expectations and law need to change. I absolutely agree that they’re reacting to the same stupid laws that see parents arrested for doing perfectly safe things, with the exception that the scoutmaster is probably in greater danger, not less, because the same parent who doesn’t show up on time is probably going to scream bloody murder if the scoutmaster isn’t there. I’m complaining about the situation, not saying the scoutmaster should take off – and I’m also complaining about the social scenario that led to the laws and interpretations thereof.

On abandonment – I hadn’t thought of a scenario like that, and it’s a good point. I also understand not feeling sympathy for parents who do inconsiderate things, but there is a difference between not feeling sympathy in a general sense, and wanting them arrested and/or their kids taken away – see above mentioned idiotic laws and idiotic enforcement mechanisms. I can think someone is a jackass and still think exposing them to DCF is a bit much.

Marie – I agree with Donna and think you look my point a bit too far. While we’re not entitled to other people’s time, we can most certainly agree with each other to do something that entails time. If you tell a child “yes, you may participate in this activity, and I will drive you there and pick you up” you’ve created a bit of an entitlement – an entitlement you have not created with the scoutmaster (although you’ve created an entitlement to their time of a different sort – certainly no one would find it acceptable for the scoutmaster to just take off halfway through the agreed upon meeting time.) You can’t just assume the scoutmaster will keep your kid for 1 or 2 hours beyond what they agreed to – but your kid can, I think, assume you’ll come when you said you would. Now, if you tell them “yes, you can, but just realize you’ll need to wait outside for half an hour until I get off work” and communicate that to to the scoutmaster, fine – they’ll probably want a signature, though, which is also fine.

My whole philosophy is not to, where it is avoidable, deny children rights and responsibilities we give to adults. Any adult has a right to expect you to show up within half an hour of your agreed upon time – try making a date wait half an hour without a really good reason and see what happens – and so a child does also.

Also, there seems to be a universal agreement that the area outside a strip club is more dangerous than average. I expect the opposite is true – most areas are not patrolled by very large men who will physically remove you from the premises if you don’t behave yourself.

@Donna–I agree that it’s irresponsible to just leave a five-year-old to fend for him-or-herself after dark, and I also disagree with the attitude of “I don’t need to be on time; my child needs to learn to wait, because my time is more important.” However, that’s different from either accidentally forgetting your child, or mutually deciding in advance that the child will walk/bike/take public transit home from the activity, or get a ride with someone else. Also, since accidentally forgetting to pick up a child is, indeed, an accident, it’s impossible to set a minimum age at which it’s safe, because it’s not as if you’re trying to forget. Maybe it’s worse to forget to pick up your Daisy Scout than your Cadette Scout, but I still don’t think it’s criminal, as long as it’s not a regular thing.

@Donna–A lot of the people in my high school band would simply stay after school until band practice (there were enough people who stayed that it wasn’t lonely or boring), or go somewhere other than home (like the YMCA up the street, the mall, etc.), so it’d be entirely possible for their parents to forget their kids after band, because they hadn’t seen them all day, and might just think they were quietly reading or studying or watching TV in their bedrooms, when they were actually sitting outside the high school auditorium, waiting to be picked up. However, I agree, “forgetting” your child at Girl Scouts, when you just dropped her off an hour ago, seems less plausible. In that case, I don’t think the Scout leader should “keep the child indefinitely” if the parent doesn’t arrive for pick-up, and the leader can’t reach any of the child’s contacts, but maybe the leader could drive the child home, just to see if anyone’s there, and THEN call the police. There might be an older sibling home, or the other parent, or the child might have her own house key, if she routinely stays home alone after school. If this isn’t the case, THEN call the police, but I’d try the house first, because it could be a simple miscommunication (each parent thought the other was supposed to pick Kiddo up), or maybe the family doesn’t have a land line, and the cell phone is turned off, or the battery is dead, or it was accidentally left on vibrate, and nobody can hear it.

@Marie–It’s not encouraging snowflake behaviour, to pick someone up when you said you would. One thing I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned, is that Girl Scouts (and Girl Guides) have to learn a Promise when they join. In fact, it’s probably the first thing they teach the kids, as Daisies/Sparks/Rainbows/Gumnuts/Pippins/whatever. They make a big deal of it, they have a Promise ceremony for those joining for the first time (and a re-affirmation for those returning), and the child receives a Promise badge, or the centre of the daisy to put on her spiffy new blue vest, or whatever……because she’s just made a PROMISE to her new group. Now, how seriously is that child going to take her Promise, if she’s experiencing her parents routinely not arriving to pick her up from Scouts/Guides when they said they would? If the arrangement was for the child to walk home/bike home/get a ride with someone else/take public transit, or wait at a safe location, like a public library (not unreasonable, since there’s a combined Spark and Brownie unit in my city that actually meets AT the public library), then yeah, it’s fine to stick to that, but if you said you were going to pick up your child when the meeting ends, “I have a life of my own” isn’t a good enough reason not to. Besides, kids live what they learn–how would you like it if your child promised to do a chore at a certain time, and then used “I have a life of my own” as an excuse for not following through? Probably not very much.

“maybe the leader could drive the child home, just to see if anyone’s there, and THEN call the police.”

Sure, if this is a one-off bizarre thing and if the child’s house is on the way to your house or you just want to be extremely nice, but it really seems like some are insisting that people must take a lot of their own time and go pretty far out of their own way to accommodate someone who has absolutely no respect for anyone else’s (the scoutleader’s or their own child’s) time. Since uber-accommodation is how I think we got into this whole elevated sense of entitlement mess to start with, I’m not sure that I have much interest in encouraging more accommodation. A person who truly just forgot her child, would likely be embarrassed and never do this again. The parent who thinks only her time has any value has simply just learned that you will drive her child home if she doesn’t show up and I can pretty much promise that she will never show up on time again.

Emily –

“but I was trying to think in terms of what would be in the best interests of the child,”

I guess this goes back to my first comment – how much do we have to put ourselves out to protect the best interest of children whose own parents don’t have their best interest at heart or they would just pick them up on time? I am all for helping others, but there is a limit to my willingness to protecting everyone else to the detriment of my own time, schedule, resources and sanity.

As for my daughter’s troup, the scout meeting is only 2 miles from my house. It is too far for elementary age kids to walk in the dark in my opinion, but it only takes about 5 minutes to drive. And, while the immediate streets are empty by the time the troup meets due to it being an office area (banks, law offices, water company, post office/federal court, city hall), it is right downtown and only a 3-4 block walk from lots of bars and restaurants (and the beginnings of the state flagship university campus). It is also 2-3 blocks in the other direction from the most crime-ridden housing project in the city. There are certainly resources where my daughter could find help if she was abandoned at her scout meeting (and went in the right direction), but seeking help at a college bar seems a bit outside normal expectations for a 3rd grader and not a position I am interested in putting her in at this age – and, frankly, if the scoutleader couldn’t reach me, neither is anyone at the bar going to be able to, so their only option is to call the police and we are right back where we started originally but now with a lot more stress on my child.

The troup meets where it meets because our scout troup is sponsored by a church. The meeting place (right across the street from the church) is provided by the church and so is a substantial amount of money, allowing our girls to do things that they might not be able to do otherwise (it is basically a free troup – dues, membership fees, and the cost of most activities are paid 100% by funds received from the church and fundraising opportunities provided by the church).

The time is what it is. It is what is convenient for the scoutleaders. The vast majority of the parents – including all the scoutleaders – work and can’t get their kids to activities outside of school before 5:30-6. Such is life in 2014 when the vast majority of children are raised in houses with 2 working parents. I refuse to enroll my child in any extracurriculars on the weekends so she would not be a member if Girl Scouts met then. Weekends are my time to relax, not shuttle a kid around.

All in all, I love my daughter’s scout troup. I have no complaints. I’ve never heard anyone else voice any complaints either. In fact, a number of kids from outside the area choose to join our troup rather than a closer one.

I was a daisy in like 2nd or 3rd grade in the suburbs and no the meeting area was not walkable to anything. I lived on top of a ridge where there were subdivisions and no sidewalks and huge hills and blind corners etc. The meetings were at night because I remember it being dark often when I went in so I am guessing about 6. Parents dropped off and came back an hour later. I think driving distance from my house was maybe 12 minutes. So my mom had plenty of time to go back home but would have to be back to get me.

No way me or any of the other girls would be walking home and it be safe. That was just the area we lived in. And that was the little church that let us have the meeting there.

It was close to all our houses but not really a walking thing. It was not a walking area period. Many areas around here are not designed with walkers in mind.

What is wrong with parents bringing a dang book and sitting in the car and waiting? I do that all the time. My son has an activity 45 minutes away from our house and I just bring a book and sit in the lobby and wait on him since its too far to go home. Or I go run errands nearby. I don’t see why other parents have some extreme issue with dropping their kid off and being back on time to get them.

Oh yeah I mean Brownie. whichever is the one before you walk the bridge to girl scouts. I never stayed with it long enough to do that.