The Gorilla, The Boy, The Mom and the Shamers

I have to disagree. This wasn’t a toddler- this was a four year old. If he had been following the rules- or had a mother paying attention enough to ensure he was following the rules, none if this would have happened.

This is not a case of bad parenting because she turned her back for a second. We’ve all been there. This is a case of bad parenting because her child was not taught how to behave at a zoo. It’s not like she turned around and he ran, tripped over a rock, and fell into the gorilla enclosure. I’ve been to this zoo and this exhibit. There is a large fence he had to have climbed, wire he had to have gotten under, and a large set of bushes to crawl through. It had to have taken him nearly a minute.

This enclosure has been set up this way for close to 40 years and this is the first time something like this has ever happened. This is not a situation that could happen to anyone. This is a situation that happened because rules were not followed and she wasn’t paying attention. Unfortunately, the blame is on the mother here.

I agree with pretty much everything you said – I’d only add that our choices also include not putting wild animals in places where they are likely to get agitated from human contact (i.e. an enclosure like a zoo). The fact that everyone is outraged that the gorilla was killed tells me that people don’t really understand the point of zoos in the first place, which is to use wild animals for entertainment. But yes, blaming this mother or saying that the child should have been better behaved is completely silly.

I blame the zoo. They give the appearance that it is a safe place for children, when this real world test shows that it is not. If you are crossing a highway with a 4 year old, you hold his hand because he doesn’t understand the risks yet, and he is harder to see or predict than an adult. But at the zoo, it feels like a safe place, so you let your guard down. The zoo needs to make it safer, or make it obvious to the harried that things can quickly get dangerous.

Frankly, where it regards the gorilla, I have to say “who cares?” Really. It’s a GORILLA. I think we in this country have gotten really crazy with how we are about animals. A human being’s life should ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS be ranked above an animal’s, PERIOD, even if the human is a stranger and the animal is one of our beloved pets. No matter.

As for the mother, assuming she had taught her child proper behavior in the zoo, she wasn’t negligent. There is only so much you can do when a child is determined to explore, short of leashing the child–and even then people will STILL scold you for doing that. No matter what she does, she’s judged.

I think this is a blameless situation, but at the same time I am tempted somewhat to “blame” the child. From what I’ve read he had been firmly told and instructed that the area in question was off-limits, and the SECOND she turns her back, off to the races he goes. If my child did a thing like that, I’d burn his tail up so good he’d be unable to sit down for a week. Where I come from, you do what your parents tell you to to whether you like it or not. You get to do what you want when you’re 18, no sooner.

In fact, while obviously the child’s life had to be spared, and if you’re the parent seeing your child heading in that direction you do whatever you have to to stop it, all of that being said if he was traumatized a bit by what happened, I say GOOD, he OUGHT to be. It serves him right for going against his parents’ directives. He was four, I can tell you from my own experiences that age is PLENTY old enough to know better than to go against your parents’ directives regardless of how you (the child) feels in terms of curiosity etc.

I wonder why people automatically blame the mother rather than the child? One of the commenters here said it was “poor parenting” because the child should have been taught how to behave. Which just makes me shake my head because seriously? What 4 year old behaves all the time? My ELEVEN year old doesn’t behave all the time! Children misbehave, no matter how perfect your parenting skills. I’m so glad this child was saved. And chances are, after a scare like this, he will be very, very well behaved the next time he visits a zoo.

Thanks LRH, couldn’t have said it better. The world seems to have gone nuts regarding animal rights. I do feel sorry for the gorilla, and if it hadn’t been spooked it possibly would have remained not a threat to the child, but it is still not worth a human life.

And the poor mum! My children are known for being reasonably compliant, but each of them has done some pretty dumb things when my back was turned, even after direct instructions to the contrary. One tried to turn up the gascock for a whole street and on a separate occasion managed to disable an escalator in one of the busiest areas in a major city, another chose to direct traffic (thank God for an attentive motorist ), the third took off on a bus ride without telling anyone. And that’s only a few of the dumb things they’ve done, each requiring a maximum of ten seconds of inattention. Poor, poor mum. Even parents of onlys can’t keep their eye on them every second….

Stories like these make me think I should just never leave the house with my preschooler until he’s 18. Even if the mother was totally at fault (and she wasn’t), the kid’s life is more important than the gorilla’s. Sorry. I said it. Guess I wish they could have used a tranquilizer instead but oh well. My child is a smart, compassionate, sweet child who knows how to “behave” and I think we’re good parents, and I could totally see how something like this would happen. The self-righteousness on this topic is coming from everywhere. My neighbor, who repeatedly loses her toddler (in that she has on more than one occasion left the house and wandered over to our place when the adults in the house turn their backs) had the nerve to tell me she thought the family at the zoo should have to “suffer consequences.” Really??? Pot – kettle. Come on people.

In my experience, even the best behaved 4 year old kids do random unpredictable things regardless of what we tell them to do or threaten them with – and everybody takes photos at the zoo. The scene in question would probably happen hundreds of times a day in zoos all over the world, but this was the one time the kid made it over the edge instead of running to the ice cream stand.

There’s no need to blame anybody.

I can understand the anguish at the shooting of the gorilla, but under the circumstances that was the only reasonable course of action. Imagine the headline – “Zoo staff with guns watch on while 400 pound gorilla kills 4 year old child”. They did the right thing, and it’s unfortunate and sad.

Lastly, punishment – for either the mother or the kid. That’s just laughable.

I wonder if this four-year-old had ever had contact with any kind of real animal before – a pet like a dog or cat, or a bigger animal like a horse or cow. If this child had never seen anything but cartoon animals on screens, no surprise that he was unaware of any danger.

Interesting perspective, Lenore. Not what I would have expected from you, but it made me think. Thanks.

Some of the comments on this post are just as bad as the comments I’ve seen elsewhere. I don’t understand the mentality of always having to blame somebody for an accident. Sometimes they just happen. When you blame the “negligent parent” it “bratty child” (particularly reprehensible) you are are attempting to protect yourself from the thought that something terrible could ever happen to you or your child.

I heard an interview with a zoo expert. His take on the parental responsibility was thus: Zoos advertise themselves as family friendly places to visit. They tell families “come here with your family for a safe and fun day.” And zoos know perfectly well that children are not 100% directly supervised every minute of every day. The parents may have have several children, they can be distracted and children are naturally curious. This is not on the Mom, this in on the zoo. It was the zoo’s responsibility to make sure that a place that they advertised to families was actually safe for families.

That seems logical to me.

When the child tells the mother repeatedly that he is going to go in with the gorilla, perhaps that’s when the mother should hold his hand at all times or move along to a new exhibit. He TOLD her he was going in, and she didn’t listen or watch him closely enough.

I do not agree she should be called a bitch, like in the meme above. She should have made SURE he was with her at all times when he told her he was going in there to swim with the gorilla.

“There is a woman giving a first-hand account of what happened and not finding the mother to be negligent. How is that not enough for some people?”

Because keyboard warriors like Katie, our first commenter, obviously know the situation better than the people who were there, and should be allowed to pass judgment on things they have no understanding of.

What amazes me is that the comments (not so much here, but on all the news stories) and Facebook outrage indicate that there are SO MANY perfect parents out there who never ever turn their back on any of their children, never take their eyes off them for one second, and never take photos on outings (apparently this mom was taking a photo or selfie when it happened and this makes her eleventy-nine million times more horrible). This is a direct quote from a commenter: “I have 3 kids, and you can bet I never ever turned by back on any of them.” Well honey, I can bet that you’re totally lying.

Let’s get this straight. This is not a case of an animal being used as a test subject for drugs or cosmetics or any other life enriching purpose. This was a 400 pound beast that was a clear and present danger. So all the animal rights go out the window.

I love all animals except snakes. We need to rid the planet of those suckers. I eat all sorts of meat as nature intended our species to do. I hunt and fish, not for trophies but for meat. Now while I am out in the woods, should I be attacked, even killed by a bear, moose or any other animal out there, I nor my family will see it as anything other than what it is. Nature. My family and I would fight any attempts to kill the animal for attacking me.

Humans are not the only species to place the life of their own over all others. And if you doubt that statement, put yourself between a mama bear and her cubs and if you survive let us know how that worked out for you.

“And it’s particularly smug to believe that you as a parent can control the personality of your child. Don’t have a runner? Good for you. It’s probably because you’re luck, not because of anything you’ve done. Have a kid who dares to be “mischievous”? Once again, that’s probably just who he is.”

Reading comprehension. I clearly stated that personality is not something parents control. The manifestations of that personality are. If you have a runner, you secure him from running until he has enough sense to protect himself. You don’t just say “oh well, that is just Timmy’s personality and I don’t need to do anything to protect him from himself.” You watch your runner like a hawk. You hold his hand. You put him on a leash if you have to. You DO something to keep him from making impulsive decisions that put himself at serious risk of injury. Especially when the child is reported to have said repeatedly that he was going into the enclosure before he went (according to several eyewitness reports).

And this is not a normal runner. MILLIONS of 4 year olds each year go to zoos across the world. This has been going on for generations. I am sure that many of the millions over the years have been “runners.” All except this one have managed to stay out of the gorilla enclosures. It can’t be that hard to avoid.

As a parent, my response to this would have been extremely apologetic that my child would do something like this and as a result a living creature was needlessly killed (needless in that it did not need to die but for the actions of the child; the zoo 100% did the right thing in response to the child’s actions). The blame would rightfully belong on the shoulders of my family. This wasn’t an accident. This wasn’t cute childish antics. This wasn’t typical childhood behavior that you just need to accept if you are going to be in a place frequented by children. The kid wasn’t climbing on something that unbeknownst to him led to the gorillas. This kid intentionally scaled several barriers to get to someplace he knew he wasn’t supposed to go. He may be too young to understand fully the consequences if he went, but he is well old enough to understand that he was not supposed to go there. I don’t know whether the parents are bad parents or just have an exceedingly difficult child that they way underestimated. I would guess that it is more likely the latter. Either way, the gorilla is dead due solely to this boy completely disregarding an extremely basic rule that almost every other 4 year old who has ever visited a zoo is able to follow. The family deserves some blame for that.

I wonder how you’ll all feel when this boy grows up and becomes a leech on society like his parents.

Hissyfit
How will you feel when he grows up to be a veterinarian and saves the lives of animals?

I totally agree with Donna. She’s not being smug, she’s simply laying out her argument in an articulate, intelligent manner.

This is mostly unrelated to this but I wanted to bring it to your attention Lenore. You don’t normally get rational arguments on Scary Mommy. http://www.scarymommy.com/want-kids-talk-to-strangers/

Now that I think about it, it does connect to this. If everyone isn’t immediately considered a stranger and therefore dangerous, would one of the bystanders have felt more empowered to reach down and grab that little boy before he fell?

@Niki Buchan

” Why do we feel we need to blame somebody, something, anything? Why not see it as a tragic accident with tragic consequences.”

I’ve pondered this a lot over the past few years. I think that if there is someONE to blame, people feel safer. It it was someone’s fault, people can say “Well I would never do that, so it will not ever happen to me.” If no one is to blame, it could happen again to anyone at any time. And that uncertainty is scary to most people.

Many conflicting thoughts on this. I can all too easily see one of my nephews trying to pull this. Yeah, I’d hope they’d have better sense, but come on, I caught the one nephew about to climb up on a stool wearing oversize roller blades and a helmet with no strap. And of course, look at all the toddlers who’ve been shooting themselves/others lately. At the same age, I got it in my head to drive the car (my SO has told me that by the time he was four, he had already attempted the same half a dozen times). Kids that age are DUMB. All the people claiming they never take their eyes off their own kids, kids never got themselves in trouble- well, they can stuff it. I don’t believe them, for one thing. Literally watching the kids every second would not only be impossible, it would drive both you and the kid insane.

As Donna said, though, parents are still responsible for any mess the kid creates, and I don’t see the parents taking any such responsibility in this case. The mother has not so much as apologized for the fact her kid, innocent as his motives may have been, caused the death of a beautiful and rare animal. It’s hard to say just how inattentive the parents were (I’m not going to take one exclamation inundated Facebook post as fact), but even if it was just a momentary lapse on their part, you still have to take responsibility.

I have my doubts that the animal that pulled the naughty boy out of the water wanted to hurt him. As for zoo being prisons where should they live? We have taken much of their homes for us. And let not forget about the lovely poachers.

Soooooo tired of parents who think it’s everyone else’s job to watch their kids. I see it in restaurants all the time. Kids running around while their parents are eating or checking their phones. My wife and I had the recent pleasure of having forks and steak knives dropped on us by some unsupervised children who were on the upper tier dining room of the restaurant. The parents were aghast when we had the gall to tell the restaurant manager to please make them stop.

Please don’t have kids You really suck at it.

Paul – Yes, and I am horrified so much of this group echoes the mother’s statement of oh well, shit happens and it is all good because my kid is fine.

If my kid had done this, I would have been horrified at my child’s actions and the result. My response would have been much less ” oh well, accidents happen” and something much more along the lines of “While I greatly appreciate the actions of the zoo workers in saving my child, I am sorry beyond words that his actions caused the gorilla to need to be killed. I underestimated the full extent of his desire to play with the gorillas and the great lengths that he would go to get there and for this I apologize.”

Thanks Lenore. I posted this on FB, along with an interview of a primatologist from the University of Southern California on this incident. I agree with those below who ask why we always have to blame someone.

This seems to be a well thought out and rational telling of the awful event. I find the people needing to find fault and place blame so sad and yet so common. I wish there was more empathy and less anger!

Donna

Assume much?

How can you compare the mothers response with one you authored while not under duress and completely removed from the situation?

A proper barrier mainly for the safety of the captive animals would be a tall, plexiglass barrier around all exhibits in addition to whatever measures currently exist. However that would of course help reinforce the idea that the zoo is simply a prison for exotic creatures, something zoos have been trying to get away from with their more natural exhibit spaces.

As another commenter stated: Provide a rational reason for your evaluation of human life over a gorilla’s. Humanity has found no good answer to that question – the best we have are akin to children’s fairy tales.

@Larry (15th post down)

Larry you said it so eloquently! Niki, who posted one below Larry, also said it very well. Allow me to just add that if we start criminalizing parental mistakes (which everybody wants to do to this mother) then ALL parents would be in prison!

Quote:

“First, you’ll need to figure out how to rationally justify how a four-year old human is more important than a 17-year old gorilla.” Not saying the gorilla is more important, simply that the human is not.”

@Eman

That is probably the dumbest and most ignorant statement I’ve ever read on the internet.

It must be done without religion because you are discussing the ending of a life. Religion is founded on faith, and by nature is unprovable. It is barbaric to take another’s life based on irrational justifications. No one is saying you cannot believe what you like, but part of living in a modern society means you do not get to use irrational beliefs to justify taking a life (of course we often fail miserably at this).

Dropped into a completely alien (not green men, just radically different to your own) culture, not knowing the language, customs, etc, you would find that you may react in similar ways to this gorilla, even with all that intelligence to sort out “right” and “wrong” actions. Would you be so supportive of putting down the dangerous creature then? Or would you perhaps want more leeway provided, more potential danger to others exist, to hopefully get you through alive?

Can one blow away a man to protect an animal? Or is it your-species specific? If species-specific, why?

The child should have been shot, then the mother, then the father.

Security is a funny thing. We can only create precautions against things we can visualize can happen. Sure, hindsight is great, but the truth is that unless there’s a hidden report where some whistleblower tried to tell the zoo this was an immanent danger and the zoo did nothing, it is simply a case of “we didn’t think of this.”

Kinda like how many security officials didn’t think terrorists would try to take over four passenger jets with box cutters and fly the plane into buildings.

While it is sad, and there will no doubt be much blame laid, the people who choose to vilify either the mother or the zoo are wrong. The lesson will be learned, and no doubt the zoo will make changes to their security protocols. But I was at a zoo last month, and if I wanted to I could have jumped into the cheetah pen. I could have jumped onto the back of a giraffe. I was within six feet of several alligators.

And if my son had gone over the railing, I would have been the one shooting the animal.

I was a very curious and energetic child. My parents fully acknowledge that it is ONLY by the grace of God that they always managed to be there in time to stop me from drowning or electrocuting or impaling myself. My younger brother was, and still is, even worse than I was. Alertness only takes you so far.

Parents can be imperfect and kids can do things that are mind-boggling in their stupidity and unpredictability. In this case, the two combined into a perfect storm of tragedy. Mourn for the gorilla, but don’t demand an eye for an eye.

San Diego zoo was a big favorite of our family while we lived there. On more than one occasion, I was barely able to stop my 3-yr old from climbing a barricade and entering an exhibit. And yeah, repetition is the name of the game. You can tell them not to pass the barricade by the lemurs, and they’ll gun for it with the lorises. I guess I should be thankful there were no bushes for my kids to hide in on their way to “meet” the animals, or this could be my story. And I think it’s safe to say that the parents of this kid are beating themselves up more than anyone else over what they could have done differently. We don’t need to fan the flames.

People who say they mother was not negligent are applying the wrong legal standard.

Children are a product of their parents.
Product liability is strict liability.

Michael
I’m against any animal testing but have no problem killing in defense or for food. Then again a lot of other species will kill for those reasons as well.

It is only human arrogance that puts us above other species. Guarantee you nature sees it different.

For those who think vegans are “wackos” who value an “animal’s” life over a human’s, please educate yourselves about specieism. Tom Regan’s book, In the Case for Animal Rights, is a good place to begin. Vegans value all sentient life, including human animal’s lives. And I haven’t heard anyone say that the kid should have been sacrificed to save the gorilla’s life but that the zoo and mother and father bear responsibility in the death of this beautiful creature, who had just as much right to life as the child (not more, not less). Humans are animals, just in case you’ve forgotten about biology and evolution. This zoo (and I believe all zoos should be abolished — we can learn about animals better by studying them in their natural habitats or in conservatories that protect them), needs to do a better job protecting animals from onlookers. At the L.A. Zoo, there is a very high wall of Plexiglas surrounding the gorilla enclosure. I haven’t been there for years, but the last time I was there, I could see it would be impossible for anyone to climb over that wall without a very tall ladder. The gorilla in this particular incident was probably already agitated by having to live in a prison-like compound and being gawked at by strange creatures day after day. I don’t see this as a free range issue but more as a responsible parenting issue.

There IS a difference between free range parenting and not parenting at all. If you take children to a zoo, your one and only job is to watch them. If you can’t do that, don’t take them.

Also, teach your children beforehand just how dangerous these animals are. At four they can understand the difference between something dangerous and something safe. Explaining beforehand what not to do would have saved this innocent creature.

Oh for pete’s sake. Nobody wanted the gorilla to die. Nobody wanted the kid to die.

So what are people “disagreeing” about? How harshly they should judge a stranger they’ve never met. Umm….for what purpose? What will calling her a bad mom accomplish? What will calling the kid a bad kid accomplish? Why do any of us have to have an opinion about the mom, or the kid, or the zoo?

I feel like the world would be a much better place if more people said more often: “I have no opinion about that.” The next time some local story becomes international news for some sensational reason, and all of the Internets are gossiping about what should or shouldn’t have happened, based upon the laughably incomplete details available through the media, just try saying this: “I have no opinion about that. How could I? I’ve don’t even know these people.” Trust me, you’ll like it! And it’s fun to watch the utter bewilderment of others, who for some reason don’t realize that they have the option of declining to form half-baked yet inexplicably white-hot opinions about things they know almost nothing about.

Sometimes the appropriate reaction to news of a tragedy is just to be sad. There’s nothing else to be “done.” Please, let’s not have some misguided souls now try to pass “Harambe’s Law.”

This isnt the first time something like this has happened, and it wont be the last. Preschoolers are unpredictable. As for vegans, biology should explain why that isnt a viable dietary option. Look at a diagram, do research. If we werent meant to eat meat, our digestive tract would reject it before digestion even began.

Forewarning: he’s not crazy about the current “animal rights” movement.

I’m absolutely shocked this is being circulated around. I found it on Facebook …. posted by a friend of mine. I have no words for this.

https://www.change.org/p/denise-driehaus-support-harambe-s-law-for-the-gorilla-killed-in-cincinnati

……

So we start punishing parents? Do you not think they’ve been punished enough?

Andrea, while your linked post was interesting, the author certainly does seem to erect a lot of strawmen to tear down and relies on some pretty outrageous examples to garner sympathy.

One can certainly argue that some individuals have gone too far, but this overshoot is made more likely because of the callous way in which a vast majority of us view and treat (or accept treatment of) animals. These crazy animal rights people would seem far crazier if factory farms did not exist. If we did not keep animals in cages, whether for testing or entertainment. If we did not just dispose of millions of dogs and cats in the US like they were extra, unwanted fries in the warmer at the end of the shift.

Warren, in our society, most people do some job unrelated to food production, and then use trinkets to exchange for food products in order to survive. Since killing to eat is perfectly OK, I could instead, sit at home, practice with my weapons, and then just kill my neighbor once he traded his trinkets for food. I’m doing it to eat so its automatically OK?

Non-human animals do this all the time (usually minus the trinket intermediary though). So good enough for them, good enough for me, right? It certainly would be easier if one felt that their moral bar was equal to that of a lion, but I do not.

So many people are way to quick to judge others UNTIL All the Facts are known. This is one prime example!!

Library Momma

Vegans go against nature. Our species was and always will be a predator.

Like I have always said, if lions, sharks, bears or any other animal could figure out how to domesticate their prey they would.

You want that lifestyle choice, go for it. Unfortunately too many vegans are like JW’s and feel the need to convert.

Just as I can end up food for a bear, it can end up food for our family.

Warren, you seem to fall into the typical trap of the technology-dominated culture. That just because you can do something means you should.

Lions very well may, if given the opportunity, domesticate gazelles and farm. Perhaps they might settle down, build more permanent shelters, and maybe even start to eat a few specific kinds of plants, just a few of them at first of course. Then maybe those plants make those lion offspring stronger, more likely to reproduce. Maybe then some genetic copying glitch results in some more complex cognition, leading to better hunting tactics. Soon more of those individuals are part of the lion pride. Maybe thousands of generations later, in the shade of a tree, members of a species descended from those lions are sitting in a complex nest, discussing whether or not a dolphin would farm a tuna if it could and whether it was morally right to hunt gazelles.

If it is human nature to eat meat, then it must also be human nature to question the morality of doing so, it must also be human nature to not eat meat. Because humans do all these things. So human nature is not a rational argument, it is simply invoking a different kind of faith or embracing one’s ignorance as a virtue.

“And I haven’t heard anyone say that the kid should have been sacrificed to save the gorilla’s life”

I’m pretty sure that’s what most of the internet shamers ARE saying. It’s very clear to them that the gorilla shouldn’t have been sacrificed to save the child, and there aren’t too many other alternatives.

This is a situation where I think the parents were too busy doing THEIR thing, rather than keeping an eye on their kid(s). In another news article, the mother of the child said that her boy was wanting to go down to see the gorilla. We all know how kids get, at that age, when they want to do something but are either told “no”, or they are ignored. They go on and do it anyway, by themselves. This seems to me a clear ignorance on the parents part. It’s not like a park where the kid could just run off to play with other kids, it’s a place where a small child can easily get into places we would never expect. And place where there are potentially dangerous animals. The Facebook post, clearly illustrates the complete ignorance of the mother. She’s too busy taking pictures, instead of acknowledging her “begging” son. And it’s not like there was only ONE parent, taking care of many children. It was 2 taking care of 2 kids. But again, when people are to consumed with their personal wants, and their mobile activity (taking pics to show off to their “friends”), bad things tend to happen. It’s fact, when people are distracted with their mobiles, they get into all sorts of trouble. In this case, the parents were too distracted to make sure their kid doesn’t run off, and fall into a gorilla habitat.

Two other things I take from that Facebook post, the parents (mostly the mother), seemed to be completely unphased when she heard of a boy down there. “Oh, who’s kid is that”. But when she found out it was HER kid, she was in hysterics. The selfish mentality of, “If it’s not my problem, I don’t care. If it becomes my problem, everyone better put what they’re doing down and help me!” The other, according to other articles, this woman didn’t even have the slightest remorse for what happened to the gorilla.

Selfish attitude. And her kid and the gorilla paid for it. Certain things do happen out of our control. But I don’t believe this is one of those times. The signs were there. From the boys attitude, to the environment they were in. It was a very evident chain of events. The parents just didn’t bother to heed them. And could have prevented this very potential incident. Common sense was not used here. I picture these parents to be the ones you see at Walmart letting their children run amok, while they ignorantly chat on their mobiles.

“I’m pretty sure that’s what most of the internet shamers ARE saying.”
It’s not even close. The shamers are saying “if you’d been watching your kid, he wouldn’t have gotten into the gorilla habitat in the first place, and nobody would have had to shoot anything.”

“It’s very clear to them that the gorilla shouldn’t have been sacrificed to save the child, and there aren’t too many other alternatives.”
No. Just, no.

ManorGorilla

You completely miss the point. Nature is all about survival of the fittest. Pure and simple. Humans as a species in order to survive have used our mental fitness to domesticate and dominate.

You need to understand, those that can not accept that, don’t belong. If truly humans fell into survival of the fittest, the population of humans would be a small fraction of what it is.

@James Pollack: I don’t normally agree with your comments. But your entitled to them. But I do agree with your last post. I’m old school when it comes to raising mine. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s. And I raise mine as I was, with a few needed modifications to get with the times. But for the most part, old school (aka Free-Range). But in a situation like this, knowing that kids can easily fall or get into certain places most people can’t. My common sense and logic, would dictate me to be extra vigilant with my kids. ESPECIALLY, when they are being very “are we there yet, are we there yet?”. Because at some point, they’re going to want to be a kid and take off. If I were the father of that boy, I would have carried him and let him look over. Then explain that he can’t be down there. I would also tell my wife, to put down the phone, and pay attention to the other kids. Once we are in an area where I know I can let my kids explore, without getting into very real, and very potential trouble, I say enjoy. If you lose us, this is where will be. Come back here. Of course, mine was raised proper since they were kids. And they both intellectually smart, as well as street smart. None of them would have put themselves in that position.

Dang! The long one. lol

@tdr
But it’s not, maybe at this exihbit, in this zoo. But it’s not Haily’s comet rare for a person to get into an animal enclosure or for an animal to get out. It happens.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/harambe-gorillas-zoos-safety-incidents-animals/

Is it likely on any given day? No way. But maybe just maybe we should be using our collective outrage to look at the actual safety of these places, the potentially dangerous combination of wild and aggressive animals and wild, willful, and quick children and reevaluate? Maybe?

Instead of collective rolling over this mother like army ants and leaving destructive in our wake?

What do you mean, no? Read any selection of internet comments on any of these news stories and they all express profound regret, sadness, and anger that the the gorilla was killed. There is very little of any empathy or even basic human kindness toward the child.

My son has survived to be almost 8 now. Throughout his pre-school years I pulled him off of any number of gates, fences, and barriers – especially if there was (or he thought there was) an animal on the other side. No amount of “talking to him about it” made a difference. He was actually part of a social services investigation at his day-care because he and a friend managed to break out of the day care and take a walk to see the horses down the road. They made it to the main road where a cop happened to spot them and brought them back.
It is all but for the grace of the Divine that this was never our story. He was quick, and he was good at it. A determined and willful 4 year old is a force most people will never understand. Do I wish the mom had been able to keep him out of trouble, of course I do. I do not however believe she needs to be further punished and blamed for it, and the amount of hate out there scares me. I have been there, I know just how quick it can happen.
I am also concerned about the bystanders. My understanding, from the first hand description, is that there was an area before the drop where the kid was noticed – and nobody else reached out to grab him. Now of course it isn’t their fault either, but when did we become so concerned with kids that when we see a small kid heading towards danger we ask who the kid belongs to before taking action? No blame, just a sad commentary.

So, your child was just involved in a serious incident, where he could have been killed, regardless of “why”. Is your first reaction going to be to go to your child and comfort him, make sure he is ok, and just be with him OR are you going to waste time apologizing to people who don’t matter in your life, over an incident where your child’s could have been lost?

I guarantee every parent would be with their child first, and then deal with everything else afterwards.

Give this family some time to react. To heal. To recover. Only then with her head on straight can any mom make a public statement about such a tragedy.

As I tell my children when accidents or mistakes happen, what’s done is done. Placing blame doesn’t fix anything. Make the proper response and move on. The people so focused on blame, finding the fault, pointing the finger… You must live miserable lives, always trying to dodge the bullet has to be tiring.

“Make that your second last comment. ”

Now you know why I quote people before I write my response. The little blue poundsign next to the timestamp for each comment has a link to that specific comment. It can be cut and pasted into a comment, if you want to insert a link to the original comment. I like my system better. YMMV.

“So, your child was just involved in a serious incident, where he could have been killed, regardless of “why”. Is your first reaction going to be to go to your child and comfort him, make sure he is ok, and just be with him OR are you going to waste time apologizing to people who don’t matter in your life, over an incident where your child’s could have been lost?”

Just out of curiosity, where you do you see anybody claiming otherwise?

Thank you for writing this. It is terrible what people are writing. The fact that millions of people probably go trough that place and this is the first incident, sadly accidents happen. I do believe most parents do the best they can. I have one guy who is age 4. Watching him 12 hours a day is exhausting. Yes we go on heightened alert but as long as we are together there is almost a bit of “alertness.” IWe can all analyze what happened but there will never be 100% full-proof safety on kids.

I have traveled to the big parks in South Africa. Where everything is a warning of not getting out of the car. And people there do stupid things. A zoo is so vastly different. Thousands of kids running around. Not a care in the world. And, this is not like the hunters that kill endangered species. Just a family out to the zoo and a tragedy.

And yeah “zoos” can do a lot better. Most don’t have the space, or realty the space is for human use. I live in DC area. They recently redid it, but mostly for the public use, not to really enlarge most enclosures. And yes the apes have plexiglass, but they could probably expand it by several acres at least. But that would disrupt the people. And we cannot have that.

James, EXACTLY!

Donna and James pretty much agreeing….I may keep an eye out for Ragnarok.

The other absurdity as lightly touched on is that opinions on this aren’t binary.

Between “This was a random event no one could possibly see happening” and “The parents are evil villains that deserve to be shot” is a vast swath of reasonableness.

Is she a horrible mother? The full range of facts isn’t in evidence.

Is she responsible for the actions of her kid? Almost definitely. In this case, her only possible defense is if the kid had a strong record of respecting boundaries and following rules. As an example, my 3.5 year old has a year and a half of understanding crosswalk lights and traffic at intersections and has hundreds of instances without a mistake, and her and her 6 year old brother also explain to be in tedious detail why they did not chase a ball into the street. Because of that, I have relaxed my vigilance in those situations. I have reason to believe that is warranted by past actions. In contrast, I’m like a hawk around the ocean. The 6 year old is getting to be a strong swimmer and a bit cocky, so he still has to have an adult buddy (even in a group, and with a lifeguard present) and not sticking to the buddy, or going back into the water without one is swift and immediate punishment in the form of sitting out and a tedious, painful lecture (appropriate punishment for getting excited and losing focus, as opposed to meanness or defiance). I don’t take pictures without verifying his mother is on the case.

In this case, the kid stating he was going to climb in removes that defense from her.

As far as the zoo goes, maybe legally there’s a requirement to protect normally developed people from their own stupidity, but morally? Any reasonable, functional, person knows a fence with animals in it, including domesticated ones, means a boundary not to be crossed, and being the guardian for someone that doesn’t get that means responsibility for keeping them out. If I have a high porch, I need to put up a railing high enough to prevent people accidentally falling, not high enough to prevent jumping.

She had at least a moment of being irresponsible. It happens. As James said though, that doesn’t absolve one of responsibility. My opinion of her hinges less on a moment of inattention, and more on if she learned her lesson. Her comments around God protecting the kid leave that very questionable, and absolution of their (I see no reason to absolve the father either) negligence makes it less likely she will. As do the aggressive, violent statements sent her way. That just makes people tune out. Hopefully people learn something from this and adjust their own behavior as opposed to “other people need to protect my kid from himself.” The zoo is responsible for keeping the animals in, people are responsible for keeping themselves and their kid out.

Someone above also said they hope the kid doesn’t remember the horrible, traumatic event for him. That’s also not a good viewpoint. I hope the kid has nightmares, feels guilt over causing the death of the gorilla, and generally is miserable about the whole thing. If he forgets, what’s to prevent him from being a reckless idiot all his life?

“The fact that millions of people probably go trough that place and this is the first incident, sadly accidents happen. I do believe most parents do the best they can. I have one guy who is age 4. Watching him 12 hours a day is exhausting. Yes we go on heightened alert but as long as we are together there is almost a bit of “alertness.” IWe can all analyze what happened but there will never be 100% full-proof safety on kids.”

All that is 100% true. And all that doesn’t change the fact that you are still responsible if your child damages something in ypur natural momentary lack of attention. Even indirectly as was done here.

I am not opposed to the outrage over the people who are commenting that they never lose track of their children for a moment and she is bad mother for doing so. Of course they do and one incident a bad mother doesn’t make. I am opposed to the idea expressed here that this should be blown off as accidents happen and that the family bears no responsibility for the death of the gorilla.

” No way. But maybe just maybe we should be using our collective outrage to look at the actual safety of these places, the potentially dangerous combination of wild and aggressive animals and wild, willful, and quick children and reevaluate? Maybe?”

Meh, I don’t think it’s common enough that we have to get rid of zoos entirely. Most things in life carry some degree of risk, and statistically it’s way more likely a kid would be killed or injured in the car ride on the way to the zoo than injured by an animal at the zoo itself. We don’t just advise parents not to drive their kids unless the drive is for something absolutely necessary like school or a doctor visit.

Now I do think that zoos shouldn’t exist unless they are primarily for the benefit for the animals; that is, they have spacious enclosures with lots of things to stimulate them and allow them to engage in natural behaviors, they are with other animals of their own kind (if social animals), and the main objective of the zoo is to benefit the animal species exhibited via breeding, rehabilitation, public education, etc. Zoos that are meant just to entertain humans with insufficient thought given to the animals’ welfare have no place in modern society.

As long as standard safety precautions are taken and compliance enforced, I don’t think the occasional mishap, tragic though it may be, is reason enough to end zoos as we know it.

@James Pollack: “The shamers are saying ‘if you’d been watching your kid, he wouldn’t have gotten into the gorilla habitat in the first place, and nobody would have had to shoot anything.'”

Sure, yeah, but so what? It’s not like the mom took to TV and announced, “What’s the problem? I don’t mind that my kid fell 15 feet. I don’t care that an endangered gorilla is dead. If I could replay that entire day, I wouldn’t do anything differently!” She’s probably miserable, and probably blames herself.

All of us, including the mom, wish the kid hadn’t climbed over the barricade. And I bet all of us, including the mom, speculate that if she’d been holding the kid’s hand during that split second, or hadn’t looked away during that split second, she could’ve stopped the kid from climbing over the barricade. It’s terrible that the kid fell. It’s terrible that he was dragged like a rag doll. It’s terrible that the crowd’s reaction made things worse. When given a choice between certain likelihood of animal death and uncertain-but-real-danger of 4-year-old human death, the zoo chose rightly in saving the human life. But we wish the gorilla were still alive.

I assume we all agree on all of the above. So, why the merciless judgment of this random woman? Why call the mom a “bitch”? Why launch some campaign for “justice” for an already-dead gorilla?

The mom-shamers all sound to me like the Anti Kitten-Burning Coalition.

(see supra)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2014/12/21/the-anti-kitten-burning-coalition-again/

“Remember that one time Mary lost kid Jesus?”

Jesus had his other parent looking out for him.

Am I naive? I have always thought that zoos were 100% safe — especially for children. I have heard of instances where people have intentionally breached the cages, but thought that was an example of idiocy (and/or drunkeness), not danger.

I am shocked that a 4 year old could get into a gorilla cage. That is the problem.

Alan Lewis you are right. A child dies in a gun accident everyday in this country and we don’t see even a fraction of the outrage at the (in these cases nearly always) negligent adults involved.

“A child dies in a gun accident everyday in this country”

A quick Google search suggests the number was around 265 for 2015, or one for every weekday.

Any idea how many kids were accidentally killed by motor vehicles?

James I know that, overall, guns kill about as many people as motor vehicle accidents do in the US. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/17/guns-are-now-killing-as-many-people-as-cars-in-the-u-s/

I agree with Katie; this wasn’t a toddler, he hadn’t been taught how to behave and as a result a family leader of a highly endangered species is now dead.

It’s not a case of whose fault this is (sometimes it’s no one’s fault, but a combination of circumstances) but, if parents today do not take responsibility when appropriate I really fear for the next generation and the lessons they are learning. Obviously her first concern is for her son, but unless I missed it, where is any public statement about the permanent loss to the world that this shooting represents?

Everyone makes mistakes. I guess that the people vilifying the mom much have children with 100% compliant personalities and not an ounce of strong-willed tendencies or curiosity. Lucky them. It certainly makes their parenting easier and harder to fall off the perfect pedestal.

Lenore, I think that this is just a REALLY bad example of a free-range parenting. This was not even a free-range parenting at all…
Olympia, Donna & James Pollock, I completely agree with you! Both my kids were energetic (especially the girl), so I knew that in environment which could be potentially dangerous for them I had to watch them all the time. If I did not feel like it, I stayed at home. If anything happened, I would not say “it was just an accident”. When I was a kid, a little girl climbed over to the lion’s cage in the zoo and lost her hand. My father told me so in front of the very same cage reminding me how to behave. I’ve remembered it since… Nowadays some parents believe that it is someone else’s job to bring up their children, and when something bad happens, well, “it was just an accident”!

“James I know that, overall, guns kill about as many people as motor vehicle accidents do in the US. ”

Gun accidents killed around 265 people (under 18) in 2015.
Car accidents killed about 870 people (under 13) in 2014.

I guess that’s “about as many”, if you ignore the fact that one number is three times higher than the other one.

“When I was a kid, a little girl climbed over to the lion’s cage in the zoo and lost her hand. My father told me so in front of the very same cage reminding me how to behave. I’ve remembered it since… ”

When I was a kid, a 2 or 3 year old kid tunneled out of the enclosed back yard by going under the house, crawling the length of the building, and escaping through the inspection hatch. He got a couple of miles away, walking down a busy highway, before being spotted by the police. When questioned by police, he refused to give his home address, although he claimed he knew it. Fortunately for the police officer, a passing motorist recognized the child and provided the home address.

It was the mother’s fault. And she doesn’t like it when I tell this story, to this day.

I love how everybody thinks there such perfect parents and can put down everyone else! I am a parent of 3 children and my kids have wondered off from me in 1sec and and ended up clear on the other end of the mall (yes In that amount of time) and yes it is horrifying!! But it does happen and it’s NOT from neglect like some of u think!! This mother is going through enough, something bad happened to her son and they will live w this for the rest of their lives, and now they have hate mail and death threats!! Really peoples, damn maybe the zoo should of waited and let the gorilla kill the boy then your precious monkey would of been saved!! Would that have made u happy??? Cause that’s what alot of u make it sound like should of happened!! Leave the family alone, theyve been through enough!! NOBODY IS PERFECT, WHERE ONLY HUMAN AND WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES!!

EricS@, very, very nice!

If you expect accidents like it to never happen, then the only way to achieve that is to hover constantly and closely over kids. I have seen young kids impulsively run away when parent was not looking for a moment, but fortunately nothing bad happened.

This time it had bad consequences and I haven’t read mothers facebook to make judgement on whether she was appropriate or not. I assume she wrote something she hoped wont make abuse worst. If she assumed apology would make them target of bigger harassment, I am find with her being neutral instead of doing apology.

This was not a case of a child being allowed to run around zoo freely. It was parent loosing control for a moment. Parents think it is their duty to helicopter and be scared when they do not see child for 30 seconds, because whenever something happen parents are deemed irresponsible for loosing control for those 30 seconds.

Those who joined in to complain that some kids in other case run around without being supervised closely, well, you are the reason why parents helicopter and dont give them freedom. Because you succeeded and parents were convinced by people like you it is their duty to control children all the time.

At the “good old times” when kids used to be allowed to run around freely four-five years old (I personally find it too soon but anyway), those kids caused troubles and damage occasionally. That is just how it was and unfortunately, we can not have it both ways.

“If you expect accidents like it to never happen, then the only way to achieve that is to hover constantly and closely over kids.”

Unless you count the other ways.
If you can’t be sufficiently attentive to your child to keep them out of trouble, recruit others to help you. Don’t take your children to places where their particular personalities are likely to create problems for other people. Physically restrain the child if necessary to keep them away from trouble.

And of course, never having kids is also an effective method to achieve the stated goal.

“Blaming the mom for this momentary lapse is outrageous, since 4 year olds are autonomous beings. But so is shooting the gorilla, who is a critically endangered and beautiful creature and shares 98% of our DNA.”

Sharing 98% of our DNA does not make the gorilla 98% human, any more than sharing 60% of our DNA makes a chicken 60% human or sharing 35% makes a daffodil 35% human. The gorilla was not human or even nearly human; it was an animal. That it had to be killed to protect this child is not outrageous, just an unfortunate necessity.

U r a fucking piece of shit if u think that dam gorilla is worth more than that kids life

David,

Can you not recognize that you are making an arbitrary distinction based on no real facts? Or at least none were presented in your comment. Why can you eat deer but not Davids? What makes one meat and the other an equal deserving of respect? Is it something you would be able to show me or is it some sort of puzzle I must figure out or perhaps a spark of insight or emotion I must feel?

I am not trying to be sarcastic or attack you. I have likely believed many of the same things you do and that we now disagree on. I can’t say I had any rational reason for it though. The dominant culture can be quite persuasive and hide some true horrors in plain sight.

It’s reasonable for a mother to lose sight of her child for a moment…….if the mother and child are in a location where the child is unlikely to do something in that moment that would endanger its life. This wasn’t the case in Cincinnati. Because of the proximity to the gorilla and the open nature of the zoo, the mother should have been more vigilant than “normal”, especially when the kid had just stated that he wanted to climb into the exhibit.

Whether or not the zoo should have shot the gorilla is a SEPARATE issue – shame on you Ms Skenazy for attempting to conflate the two – and the zoo was correct in shooting the ANIMAL to save the HUMAN even if the chances were remote that the gorilla would have seriously harmed the child. The magnitude of the consequences of what the gorilla might have done make “drastic” actions by the zoo acceptable even if the odds of the gorilla acting was small.

Value of human life >>>>>>>>>>> value of animal life.

Also, i did NOT “read it on facebook”. Im not gullible like that. I QUESTION EVERYTHING. IT IS A PERSONALITY TRAIT. I READ AND READ AND READ ON BOTH SIDES AND DETERMINE FOR MYSELF WHAT I KNOW TO BE FATUALLY ACCURATE. IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE BIOLOGICALLY FOR HUMANS TO LIVE WITHOUT ANY MEAT PRODUCTS WHATSOEVER.

We would do well to remember that the lens through which we view the world is only one type of lens, there are many different ones that exist, some completely unlike the lens we are familiar with. If I give you a lens that doesn’t allow you to see yellow, if most everyone has those lenses, you will never know yellow exists. You may even find someone to be crazy if they told you about it, for you had never seen it or know anyone serious who claims to believe in yellow.

What biases are you not even aware of? What concepts have you not been given or thought of yourself? What concepts HAVE you been given or thought of that then influence others? Is there some information, some experience, you lack?

We are limited by the constructs we possess at the time. This applies to everyone so you must question the fundamentals of your ideology periodically. As a social animal, we are also limited by the way the majority of the culture thinks, especially if the majority culture is overtly hostile towards the ideas (animals being in any way equal to humans being a prominent example).

“So if you synthesize those components, using either artificial or simply using the natural processes of non-complex lifeforms, you then get to not die and not kill complex life in order to do so.”

Lol dont make me laugh. Since when is artificial supplumentation better than getting it straight from the source? Btw, vegans wont eat anything made from animals, not even suppluments, so your argument is invalid regardless.

“It was an accident” is being written over and over so I have a question. It is undisputed that the kid intentionally flipped over a railing, intentionally crawled under bushes for several feet and then intentionally went over a 15 foot retaining wall. All specially to get up close and personal with the gorillas. How exactly do the people who insist that this incident was an accident define the word “accident?”

Donna, you raise an excellent point about how the language we choose (whether consciously or unconsciously) can be used to manipulate how others view a situation/idea/whatever. Throughout the thread, blame and shaming is discussed, but the word “accident” is connected to blame as well, specifically deflecting and minimizing it.

The child may have been ignorant, but he was not innocent in this story. Sometimes ignorance costs you your life. Sometimes it costs someone else’s. The dispute here is in the conscious choice to make this situation, that the gorilla did not initiate, cost him his life. That too, was not a tragic accident, or a tragic necessity.

“What is the law in Ohio? Many states limit the liability of parents in these circumstances.”

Ohio has a statute, 3109.09, that establishes damages of not more than $10,000 plus costs, for offenses of willful theft or property destruction.

Neither one would be applicable here… the kid didn’t steal anything, and didn’t destroy anything.

Parents in Ohio May Still Be Liable Under Common Law

Parents may find themselves on the financial hook for their children’s actions even when Ohio’s parental responsibility laws do not apply. Typically, these statutes focus on providing specific remedies for specific actions. But under the non-statutory “common law” rules — which are derived mostly from court decisions handed down over the years — parents and guardians can be deemed negligent for failing to adequately supervise minor children.

Essentially, parents who know their child has a propensity to act in a dangerous or reckless manner may be expected to take reasonable steps to prevent the child from causing foreseeable harm to others. For more information on general fault principles,
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ohio-parental-responsibility-laws.html

James, what exactly is it made of, then? If not made of natural ingredients, then i certainly do NOT want it in my body. There is only one way to get it without putting who knows what into your system. You know it.

ManOrGorilla, same thing: What is it made of if it doesnt come from animals? You cant synthesize animal protein, and plants severely lack the nutrients only found in animal protein that we need. I am NEVER EVER taking suppluments for the needs that plants cannot meet because it is either made from the natural source, defeating the supposed “cruelty free” purpose, or it is made of something that just shouldnt be in our bodies, much like how typical margarine (a supposedly healthy dairy alternative) is one molecule away from either plastic or diesel fuel, depending on whether you remove or add a molecule. I hate margarine for that reason, although i sometimes have to eat it because it is cheaper. Furthermore, there are very few unbiased studies that find evidence for veganism, and many that find evidence against it. It is undeniable, and we are on the high end of the food chain. Even monkeys and apes eat meat and meat-like foods occasionally, from insects to other mammals. The people who make the vegetarian or fruititarian claims can go bother someone who is gullible enough to believe it. I have eaten deer, freshly killed. Yet i love fawns. I eat beef, but i think calves are cute. I eat pigs, but the sight of piglets make me squeal with delight (no pun intended). I eat chickens, but chicks make me awww really loudly. See, we are all hypocrites regarding food. Vegans can claim their lifestyle is cruelty free, but animals still die for it, even if unintentionally. Field mice, insects, rabbits, raccoons, coyotes, etc are killed by farmers every day to protect crops and the farm animals, as well as unintentionally during harvesting (in the case of field mice). You can pretend not everyone kills something, but youre living a lie. Im an advocate for natural food sources, and sustainably raised livestock. Im not now, nor will i ever be, an advocate for going against nature in any way, and that includes trading healthy options for synthetic crap.

“James, what exactly is it made of, then? If not made of natural ingredients, then i certainly do NOT want it in my body. There is only one way to get it without putting who knows what into your system. You know it.”

You seem badly confused.

First off, chemicals don’t care where they come from. They just are. Calcium is an element, there’s no difference between the calcium you find in minerals, in plants, or in animal tissues (now, there IS a considerable difference between the calcium COMPOUNDS between sources, but that’s a different topic.

Second, you seem to have switched from “dead animals” to “natural ingredients”. Pick one or the other; they are not interchangeable.

When you consume animal flesh, you are actually MORE LIKELY to get contaminants such as heavy metals or neurotoxins than the same compounds obtained from plants, and you won’t get heavy metals or neurotoxins at all in supplements that are synthesized in a factory.

I heard the story on CBS about a witness said ” the mother and child were arguing. The boy said I’m going in there and the mother stated No you’re not! Why isn’t this talked about!

“I think c) is debatable, but otherwise I have no problem with this interpretation of “accident”.”

I don’t think anyone’s arguing that the kid set out to get a gorilla killed, or that the family’s outing for the day was chosen with that outcome in mind.

There’s “accidents” that are accidents, there’s “accidents” that are the fault of many different people who each contributed, making ultimate assignation of blame a wasted endeavor (who caused the Apollo 13 accident? We’ll never know.). There are “accidents” where the blame is absolutely clear, but the person who suffered just had bad luck (if a car owner doesn’t do maintenance, until one day the brakes fail and a fatal accident results.)

There are “accidents” that fall under the clear legal definition of negligence (duty, breach, injury, proximate cause)… which you probably have here, although the gorilla’s heirs won’t be able to pursue a wrongful death suit because they don’t have standing to sue.

There are “accidents” that are just accidents waiting to happen.

But I think Donna is correct, that people are saying “this was an accident” in the sense of “there’s nobody to blame here”, and they’re incorrect, possibly but not necessarily intentionally. The blame is clear, and it doesn’t lie with the gorilla, who was just minding his own business and gorillaing at home when this kid made an unauthorized entry.

Try this… yes, mom and dad are to blame for not property securing and or monitoring their offspring unit. Yes, it is a terrible waste that this chain of events forced the zoo to put down the animal to ensure the child’s safety. And… that’s the end of it. No outrage, no death threats, no, well, anything more is needed. The end.

“And I’m not sure what massive amounts of synthetic crap a non-animal based diet requires, I would be very interested to hear what they are, I might learn something in the process.”

I believe you have correctly noted that we are arguing with someone who treats this as an article of faith, rather than of rationality.

Well, as someone who only eats “natural” things, surely she avoids beef cattle, sheep, pigs, and goats, all of which have been rather thoroughly domesticated for a good number of millennia, and thus are no longer “natural”.

Disclosures:
I am not a vegetarian. I’m fully aware of the effects of factory-farming. I supplement vitamin D.

@Victoria, it’s being talked about all over the place – did you read any other comments? Supposedly the boy repeatedly told his mom that he was going in the gorilla pen, though I have no idea if any of these “repeatedly” reports came from anyone who was ACTUALLY THERE. Then, mom took a photo, making her officially the worst mom ever because only neglectful parents would take a photo at a family outing.

“Furthermore, there are very few unbiased studies that find evidence for veganism”

There are people who live long, healthy lives on a vegan diet. This rules out the argument that it is impossible to survive on a vegan diet.

Human biology has evolved to take in and use whatever nutritional source is available. You can get nutritional disease by lacking specific compounds that the human body will not manufacture on it’s own. Rickets, beri-beri, pellagra, scurvy. But the human body has absolutely no preference where the vitamin-C came from, as long as enough of it is present in the diet.

“Try this… yes, mom and dad are to blame for not property securing and or monitoring their offspring unit. Yes, it is a terrible waste that this chain of events forced the zoo to put down the animal to ensure the child’s safety. And… that’s the end of it. No outrage, no death threats, no, well, anything more is needed. The end.”

Some of the outrage stems from the final bit about forcing something. A certain belief system may have compelled you to act, in some way the societal pressure being the force you could argue, but this was still a choice. A valuation of one over another without any rational justification. That it is seen as something that should be done automatically and presented as the obvious choice, the child over the gorilla, that is outrage-worthy to some.

That idea is also quite silly to some. Slavery was once the natural order of things. Women were once nothing but baby-factories in much of the west. At one time animals and their cries of pain were deemed similar to the sounds of a machine. Can you folks not imagine how history might judge us all?

They should plant the mean, sticky shrubs that are around the gorilla exhibit at Audubon zoo in New Orleans. No one, not even a super curious 4 yr old would be crawling through that without emerging bloodied. Those things are tough!

Here’s a question I have, if the gorilla would have killed the boy, would they have killed the gorilla after because he did that?

Donna- For sure, the 4-year-old knows more than the 1-year-old. I still don’t think they have the ability to fully realize just how dumb some of the things they’re doing are. It was at 4 that I decided to drive the family car, and while I had a vague idea it wasn’t the best thing I could be doing, it was simply an offer I couldn’t refuse. And, as I said, it was also at 4 my sister decided to teach the chickens to fly- another idea with awesome results. 4-year-olds often believe in Santa Claus and in my nephew’s case, that clowns are born looking the way they are (he is terrified of clowns and the thought of giving birth to a clown now has me terrified, too).

“Donna- For sure, the 4-year-old knows more than the 1-year-old. I still don’t think they have the ability to fully realize just how dumb some of the things they’re doing are.”

If not realizing just how dumb what you’re about to do really is meant that you weren’t responsible for your following actions, we wouldn’t need NEARLY as many prisons as we have.

Children are equipped with parents for specifically this reason. (Not being able to understand the ramifications of actions, not prison-building, I mean.)

James- But do many of the people in prisons really have the intellect of a 4-year-old? For an adult, that’s pretty profoundly disabled. I know they’re are a lot of intellectually disabled people in prisons, including (especially?) on death row. But from what I’ve read they’re functioning on the level of 12-year-olds, not 4-year-olds. Not that executing someone with the intellect of a 12-year-old isn’t obscene.

One more thing…i dont have to provide any evidence. It isnt my fault you arent willing to look it up. Then again, you guys are better trolls than you are researchers. There. Now im done talking. Bye.

“do many of the people in prisons really have the intellect of a 4-year-old?”

You’re moving the goalpoasts.

I said: “If not realizing just how dumb what you’re about to do really is meant that you weren’t responsible for your following actions, we wouldn’t need NEARLY as many prisons as we have.”

This is a trait not limited to 4-year-olds. A good number of people get well into adulthood. We get 60-year-old politicians dismissing the extramarital affairs they had in their 40’s as “youthful indiscretions”.

4-year-olds get issued parents specifically to assist them with the “not aware of the ramifications of their actions” problem.

The first I heard about this was a Facebook post where the picture was all red text except the parts in parenthesis below that said:
My kid would never
(fall into a gorilla pit)
Because I’m am attentive parent….
(And other lies we tell ourselves)

Not knowing what had happened, I actually laughed out loud. It reminded me of the time a student, with great self assurance, had cause and effect mixed up. After much debate, the professor grabbed a paper off the student’s desk, crumpled it up, and tossed it over his shoulder. The stunned student asked why and the professor calmly asserted. “It keeps the elephants away.” And pressed on with that absurd line of reasoning.

That is how our society treats anything and everything that happens with kids. Just because an event is incredibly rare, doesn’t mean that something you are doing had made it so. And just because some rare thing happened to someone else, doesn’t mean that person was failing to take the ordinary precautions that others take. My kid is a complaint one, I was a complaint kid. But we both loved Curious George when we were 4 because even compliant kids around that age get hair brained ideas and try to do things without understanding where those choices will lead. This was an unusual and spectacular failure in that category. I have seen video of such incidents before, where kerpers managed to separate the animals from the child. Where it all ended as a blip on the radar of the public. As I understand it, the keepers tried, they really did, and the efforts failed. I can’t imagine how hard this has been for the zoo keepers.

In this age of internet, usually i look things up for myself when someone argues with me to try to prove something. I dont wait for them to send me a link or quote or whatever. As for your sarcasm, it proves both that your ego is undeniably large, and that you are indeed a troll. Plenty of information is available on the internet. I usually do not provide links for trolls, but here you go.

http://paleoleap.com/vegetarianism-bad-environment/

http://nypost.com/2015/11/01/bacon-causes-cancer-when-pigs-fly/

https://authoritynutrition.com/7-evidence-based-health-reasons-to-eat-meat/

Going back to 2013.

I suppose you can make an argument connecting this tragic event to the ‘Scapegoat’ archetype and Girard’s project, but I find the latter more complex, subtle, and with a deeper foundation along the lines to cleanse the community of some identified evil or threat to the stability of the community, than just assigning blame on this incident. There are countless single tragic incidents, or less tragic, that trigger a blame or fault finding human mental process, but if we elevate each of these to the Scapegoat, then it is lost forever in applying too often, too much.

It is a fine line between parent bashing (e.g. That abhorrent meme), and judging a situation with respect to your own children.

I 100% agree with what Lenore said, and yet I also agree with Donna and Katie (somewhat)… How is that possible?

I think it is because I don’t judge the woman for a second, I read the article with little thought directed toward her, I am trying to look for clues to reassure myself that this won’t happen to me. Not so we can judge the mother, but so that we can decide if we are overlooking something that we should be worrying about (….humourously in this case it is the chance that a 400lb gorrilla takes a liking to my 4yo).

I let my 4yo and 6yo run loose at the zoo. I let my guard down. I (smugly) trust in their good judgement and ability to follow the few rules that I dictate. Could this happen to me is the question – and parents judge the story (not the mother) in an attempt to figure that out.

(The people posting those memes and having a go at the mother are just dickheads – really. It is a great conversation to have within a small social circle, but not online).

“I did read all the way to the bottom of the articles. I never saw anything like what you claim is there. I never deem an article as viable or not viable until i read ALL of it”

Item number 7 of the “7 evidence based health reason to eat meat”, at the link you provided.

https://authoritynutrition.com/7-evidence-based-health-reasons-to-eat-meat/

“7. Anything Else?

Meat is no dietary devil.

However, there is no actual need for it in the diet either.”

Manor gorilla

First I have no obligation to eat substitutes just to satisfy bleeding hearts. When I can go moose hunting, kill a great source of very lean and healthy meat. Enough meat to feed a few families and have a vacation at the same time.

I have no moral dilemma about it. I thoroughly enjoyed our pork roast wrapped in bacon tonight, the steaks on the weekend. I am going to have a great time with the annual fish fry this Saturday of all the fish caught this winter. We plan on doing a whole lamb over a pit at the first corn roast and so on.

Can I do all this? Yes. Should I? Hell ya cause it all tastes so damn good. I have no problem killing for food. And to answer something you asked earlier, if it meant the difference between my kids eating or starving to death I would would have no problem killing to get someone’s food supply.

So you enjoy your protein shake and I will enjoy my steak.

I think the kid should have been forfeit and left in the exihbt to grow up as a modern Tarzan. That’s what Jesus what have done anyway. Abort everyone and hail Satan!

I am upset with this. The more I look at the video, the more I see a gorilla who wants to protect the child. He even touched the childs hand twice and his arm once in a delicate manner. Furthermore, the zookeeper in charge of him said even females have a tendency to quickly pull on their young to protect them. So, I truly don’t think the gorilla would have harmed him. Also, why did they not try to give him bananas as opposed to killing him. Shame on them!

“why did they not try to give him bananas as opposed to killing him. Shame on them!”

Well, gorillas aren’t that fond of bananas, for one thing.

Keep in mind that the people who decided to shoot him were the trainers who knew the most about him, about gorillas in general, and who were on the scene.

Tranquilizers work OK for a gorilla, or a bear, in a tree. You can shoot him with the tranquilizer, and wait for it to take effect. Ditto with big cats that are walking around. But if it’s mailing someone, you don’t have time for the tranquilizer to take affect. And there’s some CYA. Imagine if they shoot the animal with a tranquilizer, and in between the time it gets hit and the time the drug takes effect, the child is seriously injured or killed? How long will your zoo have a gorilla exhibit if that happens?

Yes, I also feel sorry for the gorilla. Where is the blame to be put? It is hard to know to put the blame on. We know one thing and that it was an accident. It could be the parents for not watching the child and failing to give specific instructions of how to behave in animal park. It could be the child as his curiosity took the best of him or as a child of 4, exploring is what they do. How do many 4 year olds listen anyway? It could have been the park and how it was arranged for the best security which they did not consider this can possibly happen. Even the patrons at the park by their loudness which freaked out the gorilla. This is the senario. The boy fell over the railing and had to go through another fence and some bushes. The gorilla saw this and it appears that this large animal was protecting the boy. The visitors are the park became loud and boisterous most likely scaring the gorilla and he became agitated. He picked up the boy which was some kind of protection for the boy. It looked like the gorilla was taking the boy and to run away. This produced more chaos and made something that even got worse. Was the boy in jeapordy and would the gorilla harm him? I think not. Some zoo person personnel thought that the boy would be harmed and shot and killed the gorilla. According to interviews, tranquilizers couldn’t be used as being the gorilla was in acting in more distressful ways and know what he would have done next. I felt the gorilla should never been shot and unfortunately killed. That was the most extream thing that was done. Me looking at the gorilla in videos and photo’s the gorilla had a pleasant face and looked like he would not harm the child. Personally I believe this whole senario could have been handled differently with a much better outcome. Thankfully the boy wasn’t hurt severely and he would be alright. The gorilla met his fate. I would think that this will go for further investigation. By the way I am not an animal rights activist but I care for them.

Warren,

I am going to assume you live in the first world, probably the US or Canada based on the site we’re on. As a first world individual, you eat meat, not to survive, but because you like it. Unless you get lost on your moose hunt and are hunting food until you’re rescued, meat is a luxury, not a necessity.

You use survival it seems as a way to legitimize what might otherwise be a troubling act. But be honest and recognize it is a conscious choice, to choose the luxury food item which cost a feeling, emotive creature its life so you could feel a momentary surge of happy chemicals in your brain from the oh so tasty meat (and yes, it IS very tasty, we agree here).

You can certainly make that choice, put happiness over others, but can’t hide behind survival of you and your family to do it. There are certainly some who, for various environmental or societal reasons, essentially have to eat meat or they’ll die, I’m just betting you’re not in that camp.

And while your last line was likely just meant in a lighthearted fashion, it does highlight something interesting. You enjoy your consensual intercourse, I’ll just keep using the force. You go ahead and not beat bags of puppies to death, I’ll be getting my happiness from doing so and then maybe I’ll BBQ them after. You go ahead with paying your workers, I’m gonna keep mine as property, its easier that way. You go ahead with killing your livestock before butchering, I like to watch mine squirm and it makes the meat taste better. These don’t seem like acceptable compromises in our society, what makes yours different?

Hineata,

“Wow, this particular story has generated a lot of interest. I just wanted to back Pentamom up….haven’t managed to read all the comments. …but of course one doesn’t need to justify the death of the gorilla over the child on grounds other than religion. Plenty of people believe in religions. So-called rationality is also merely another belief system, as is deciding not to believe in God.”

Plenty of people can believe small aliens have a control room in their head that dictates everything the body does and it doesn’t change the accuracy of the statement. Of course all belief systems humans have created are imperfect, so they will all have an element of irrationality. But when a system embraces irrationality, the false virtue of faith is invoked.

Faith was born out of our ignorance, as a result of of curiosity and desire to have a story to explain things, science is slowly taking its place, but of course being imperfect constructs, science can be affected by much of the same biases, preferences, and desires for power that we see have shaped what we call religions. So irrationality and faith can reside here too.

Last bit there highlights your cultural biases (we all got ’em). Why did you choose to believe there are no dragons on the moon? Just because Aldrin didn’t get set on fire isn’t sufficient evidence, I’m sorry, the dragon must have been sleeping. Why can’t we just find it with a telescope from earth? Well, umm, it actually only lives on the dark side of the moon. Oh, then how come the probe didn’t photograph it? Oh, well it must live underground, yep thats it. Hey, so we tunneled in and couldn’t find it, what’d we do wrong? Oh you silly fool, the great dragon exists on its own plane, it would only allow you to see it if he wants you to, live a good life and he may appear, or when you die you go to the great treasure hoard in the sky.

You can believe whatever you want personally, but the line must stop at your body when harms are concerned. You wanna beat a living creature as punishment for sins? Beat yourself but you don’t get to touch another. This is what is referred to when demanding that you provide justification that is at least more rational than faith. Because if you are familiar with history, you are aware of the numerous horrors committed in the name of irrational justifications, and faith in particular.

And while you agree with Warren, you also fail to provide any argument as to why you have no problem eating meat. We must ignore the for survival bit because that argument does not apply to the vast majority of situations in which humans consume meat in the first world.

Using your logic, I can eat you, if you fail to defend yourself adequately. Now you may protest and state that eating humans is wrong. Why is that though? Why pork but not people? There must be some characteristic, some ability, some trait, you had to have chosen something as a defining difference, what is it? Or is it simply going with the flow and if people were an acceptable menu item in society you’d order some Pedro Parmesan with a Little Timmy meat sauce?

Olympia – I guess that I confused by changing the ages. The determination between intent and accident is absolutely no whether you understood how stupid your actions were. That has never been how you distinguish an accident from intent. If it was, as James points out, there would be a whole lot less people in prison.

The difference between the two examples is whether the child was able to form a plan and/or comprehend that he was going into the gorilla enclosure, not whether he understood all the possible outcomes of that act. The reason that I changed the ages is that it would be very hard to convince me that a 4 year old is just casually wandering along, not intending to get into the enclosure, but suddenly ended up there without meaning to. There are too many barriers that a 4 year old has enough life experience to realize are barriers to cross and too many opportunities to see what is going on and, frankly, a bunch of people yelling at him to stop.

A one year old on the other hand could easily do exactly what this child did without having any plan or knowledge that what he was doing would lead to the gorillas. He just wants to get to the red ball he sees at the bottom of the enclosure. Or is simply going where his feet take him.

But leave the ages the same. There is a completely oblivious 4 year old who wanders off from his parents with no destination in mind, and certainly not into the gorilla cage. In fact, he dislikes gorillas and doesn’t even want to look at them anymore which is why he wandered off. He crosses the railing to get to a frog he sees hopping along and follows the frog to the retaining wall where he trips and falls into the gorilla enclosure. THAT is an accident. Completely different than a 4 year old who says “I’m going into the gorilla enclosure,” who then crosses several barriers aimed at keeping him out knowing that he is crossing barriers he shouldn’t cross and if he keep going he will end up in the gorilla enclosure. He intentionally ignores all the adults screaming at him to stop and throws himself over the retaining wall.

Nobody is saying that the boy should be legally culpable for the death of the gorilla. That was something that no 4 year old could foresee. But this wasn’t an accident. He didn’t accidentally end up in the gorilla enclosure. He wanted to be there and did everything in his power to make it so despite knowing that he was not wanted in the gorilla enclosure. The death of the gorilla was an unintended consequence of his intentional act, not the result of an accident.

We should teach our children to respect the nature. Without nature, the human race lost the balance.

As a pure hypothetical, let’s say you have a kid with you and you are on a jungle trek. You just happen to have a gun on you, a tranquilizer, and a bunch of bananas. The kid slips and falls down a slope, rolling into a silver-back’s territory. The gorilla grabs his foot and postures aggressively. Your experience in primatology tells you that the beast is about to use your kid as a battering ram on the nearest tree to scare you off.

Do you use the gun, the tranquilizer or toss some bananas at it?

The answer should be pretty obvious. Of course, the parents had no say in what the zoo keepers did, but there is still no one to blame for this horrible accident.

the second I read thiS comment:

Frankly, where it regards the gorilla, I have to say “who cares?” Really. It’s a GORILLA. I think we in this country have gotten really crazy with how we are about animals. A human being’s life should ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS be ranked above an animal’s, PERIOD, even if the human is a stranger and the animal is one of our beloved pets. No matter.

I had to stop. This person is everything that is wrong with this planet.

Great Blog thanks for sharing. Really
Too bad on the last line… do You know how many Gorillas are slaughtered around the world.
Do only humans matter?

“Completely different than a 4 year old who says “I’m going into the gorilla enclosure,” who then crosses several barriers aimed at keeping him out knowing that he is crossing barriers he shouldn’t cross and if he keep going he will end up in the gorilla enclosure.”

So by your reasoning, if my 4 year-old tells me “I’m going to swim in the deep end of the pool” and you say absoultely not but said child slips out of crowded shallow end and goes into the deep water without permission and drowns, is this also not an accident? Should we start charging all parents and caregivers for drownings? What about fires where kids play with matches?
This is truly a slippery slope.

I have a bigger problem with a 3 foot wall and bushes as the only barrier between families and wild animals.
This family will forever be know as the a$$holes who let their kid get into the gorilla enclosure. Is that not enough?

@lollipoplover All example kids are guilty of not listening to adults at that moment and of underestimating danger. In one case, kid pays too much price, in another the gorilla. All kids do that once in a while, but their parents are usually lucky and no big disaster happen.

The only way how to prevent all such events is not just hover constantly, but also to keep all 4 years old on leash. Hovering can minimize the risk, but wont remove it entirely since all humans have slips of attention no matter how hard they try. When they expect that amount of grave kid related accidents drops to zero lest parents are guilty, they demand exactly that.

In case of gorilla event, only leash would help.

ManorGorilla’s problem is morals? So by whose morals are we supposed to live our lives? His?
Ain’t gonna happen! What he seems to forget is that we have the ability and right to set our own moral compass. He may not like it but mine is just fine as is.

Now off to pick up lunch for the crew. Couple of xl meat lovers pizza with extra cheese.

As we consider this incident, let’s be clear. Most zoo enclosures are designed to keep animals in and not as much to keep people out. The gorilla did not escape. The child using faulty 4 year old logic, managed to find a way in (ever seen a determined child) and went for it full steam. After he got past the first barrier he was seen but moving too quickly for anyone on the outside to do anything about it. That probably took 10-15 seconds if he was in with the gorilla in less than a minute. From that point on all the parents and crowd could do was wait for help. Going in after him probably would have made the gorilla feel threatened and caused him to hurt the boy either on purpose or incidentally. The zoo staff did their best but were also worried that Harambe would cause incidental harm to the child even if not intentional. And for Eman, yes the child’s life was worth more than the gorilla’s. The difference is sentience. The child has it. Who knows? This child may grow up to cure cancer or create a ship that could take us to the moon and back repeatedly. The gorilla while a majestic, beautiful, magnificent, creature could do neither of those things.

“So by your reasoning, if my 4 year-old tells me “I’m going to swim in the deep end of the pool” and you say absoultely not but said child slips out of crowded shallow end and goes into the deep water without permission and drowns, is this also not an accident?”

Can’t say. Drowning is not a direct consequence of going to the deep end of the pool without your mother’s permission. Many things could intervene to make this happen that have nothing to do with being in the deep end.

But ultimately this is an apple and oranges comparison. A more apt comparison would be if your 4 year old says that he is going to throw a ball through my window. He goes and gets a baseball, walks to my house, someplace he is not allowed to go under any circumstances, climbs over my fence, hides in the bushes in front of my house so that I don’t see him, throws his ball through my window and the glass from the window cuts my arm. Are you going to tell me that this was all just an accident? The boy might not have intended to cut my arm or even understood that he could, but this sure as hell was no accident. Unlike in the swimming example, it would be criminal behavior – possibly even a felony – if the child was the legal age of reason for the state (usually in the 7-10 range) rather than 4.

Same with the gorilla. But for this child’s young age, his behavior would be criminal. He could also be civilly liable for the value of the gorilla. The only thing saving this boy from these outcomes is his young age.

“Should we start charging all parents and caregivers for drownings? What about fires where kids play with matches?”

This is the thing that annoys me the most about people on this board. This idea that things are black and white. It is either an accident or someone needs to be arrested. The family is either 100% blame free or they are evil incarnate and should be forever compared to Hitler when we are discussing evil.

Life just ain’t that simple folks. There are a million of points on the line between those to contrasting ends. There are many instances where things are both accidental and criminally prosecuted (car accidents for one). And many instances where things are not accidental, but should not criminal either. This gorilla situation should be one. It was not remotely accidental, but nobody should be arrested for it. The boy did engage in criminal behavior but is too young to be criminally liable. The parents did nothing wrong other than underestimate their child. But excusing the death of the gorilla as a mere accident in this situation where the very calculated acts of a single individual are the sole cause of his death is wrong.

“This is the thing that annoys me the most about people on this board. This idea that things are black and white. It is either an accident or someone needs to be arrested. The family is either 100% blame free or they are evil incarnate and should be forever compared to Hitler when we are discussing evil.”

But you are the one saying this is not an accident, not me. Apparently you are have superhero lawyer powers to decide this. There is more than enough blame to go around- parents, child, zoo, bystanders. It still won’t bring the gorilla back. Being smug and angry doesn’t serve any purpose.

“Let’s not burn any witches as we mourn the gorilla.”
Yup. Count me out for the witch burning…

Alexander,

“Are you really going to compare eating meat to slavery? Eating meat to BBQ live puppies?

That my friend is called a straw man argument. Try again.

Self righteous vegetarians like you make everyone else look like a lunatic by association.”

You haven’t articulated a difference. You’ve simply acted as if the difference is obvious. If it is so obvious, would you care to point it out? At one time the inferiority of the african race was seen as the obvious order of things, you probably disagree and have reasons for doing so.

I’m simply seeking an explanation, in no way am I self righteous, though if you would care to point out instances of that I would be happy to reevaluate. I have not forced you to hear my views, standing outside your place of work or play, shouting. You chose to read them, simply ideas, questions, and criticisms. Perhaps the lack of concrete answers is simply because you lack them, and your negative opinion of me is because these shortcomings have been highlighted in your own mind? We are all ignorant of much, we would be wise to remember this.

“But you are the one saying this is not an accident, not me.”
Because it is not an accident. That doesn’t mean we immediately jump to the other end of the scale, and start planning the prison sentences we’ll impose. The kid’s 4. I don’t think we’ll be remanding him to court to be tried as an adult. Nobody’s suggested he should be. Because there’s a whole long of ground between “it was an accident” and “death threats seem in order here.”
The fact that it was not an accident, does not mean anyone’s out to get this nice family and their little dog too. Stop acting like this is either one, or the other, because it is not.

Warren,

“ManorGorilla’s problem is morals? So by whose morals are we supposed to live our lives? His?
Ain’t gonna happen! What he seems to forget is that we have the ability and right to set our own moral compass. He may not like it but mine is just fine as is.”

I would like us all to honestly develop and continuously refine our moral compass as new information becomes available to us. We can do this both together and apart. But we must be honest and not accept answers which simply make us feel good and allow us to get through the day.

The same urges and ideologies which otherize the gorilla to another category of being are the ones which have the potential to hurt you and your family.

“But you are the one saying this is not an accident, not me.”

But you (and several others) are the one(s) insisting that there are only two options in life (1) an accident and (2) and act that requires criminal prosecution. And that they are mutually exclusive options. Believing that something is not an accident mandates that you also believe that it should be criminally prosecuted.

“Apparently you are have superhero lawyer powers to decide this.”

It takes superhero lawyer powers to read a eyewitness accounts in which every one states that the child intentionally went into the gorilla pit to come to the conclusion that this intentional act does not meet the definition of an accident which is to quote Merriam Webster “an event that is not planned or intended : an event that occurs by chance?”

“There is more than enough blame to go around- parents, child, zoo, bystanders.”

Not sure why anyone would blame the bystanders. The zoo is also blameless unless you just really want to ignore the fact that an agitated adult gorilla could kill a 4 year old boy in a matter of seconds.

“It still won’t bring the gorilla back.”

So we should only blame people if blame can bring dead things back? As a criminal defense attorney, I love the idea. It would certainly make my summer more fun if I didn’t have to spend it all prepping for a murder trial. As a human being, I may have more of a problem with it.

I am not sure why so many here have decided that being blamed for the consequences of your actions equals evil person who must be punished. Again, life is not that simple. You can be to blame for something and still be a fine upstanding citizen and good parent. Even if you are to blame for something tragic. If you take your eyes of the road for a second because your child screamed and in that second you hit someone in the crosswalk killing them, you are to blame for that person’s death. But for you being distracted in that second, the person you struck would still be alive. You are not a bad person. You are not going to be arrested for murder. You will likely be sued, but your insurance will cover that.

I accept the blame readily for the things that I do or don’t do when doing is required. Saying “it was my fault” or “I messed up” when it is your fault and you did mess up is not tantamount to agreeing that you are the world’s worst person. It is simply admitting that you are human and sometimes mess up and unfortunately sometimes people or gorillas get hurt when you mess up.

I also sometimes take the blame when I did nothing wrong but my kid messed up and her mess up caused damage to someone else. It is what parents do. You don’t just ignore the messes your children make because you did nothing wrong personally. In the case of your children, it is your circus and those are your monkeys.

“Being smug and angry doesn’t serve any purpose.”

I agree. However, a determination that the family holds the blame here requires neither smugness nor anger. Insisting that it could never happen to you requires smugness. Calling the mother a bitch and issuing death threats requires anger. Demanding that some legal action occur takes anger. Nobody here is doing any of that.

But you (and several others) are the one(s) insisting that there are only two options in life (1) an accident and (2) and act that requires criminal prosecution. And that they are mutually exclusive options. Believing that something is not an accident mandates that you also believe that it should be criminally prosecuted.

This is a good point. I think some people get hung up on the word “accident” and believe that it means the person was blameless and innocent, when there are plenty of accidents that involve negligent or stupid behavior.

It may be better to look at this on some kind of continuum, with some event that was completely out of a person’s control to one that was the result of considered thought and planning. While I can see that the child did what he said he would do, I also don’t believe he fully or even partially understood the risk or could even guess that it would have ended the way it did.

Great aritcle “the Cincinnati zoo mother deserves empathy, not blame.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/courtney-perry/the-cincinnati-zoo-mother-deserves-empathy_b_10220956.html

An excerpt:

Are all you parents out there completely free from mistakes when it comes to the safety and health of your children? Have none of you ever left your young child watching cartoons while you are showering, in desperate need of a 5-minute break? Because you see, most of the time, it’s fine. Your child, glued to the TV, is right where you left him when you return from the shower. But what if one time, he decided to venture outside. And crossing the street, he got hit by a car. And instead of other humans showing a morsel of empathy for a situation that is tragic and awful, millions of people instead chimed in with, “How could a mom leave her son alone while she showered? She should be killed.”

Mistakes happen.

Amen.

(Lenore, this might make a good separate post, just an idea.)

The problem with all of the comments of people who weren’t there, is they based their opinions on s 30 second snip of video on TV, with no context to put it in. That’s the underlying problem of many perceptions today.

Warren,

“All your arguments are based on your morals. Sucks to be you.

My morals are different and you do not have the power to tell me what is moral and what is not.

I walk up and put a .22 into the head of a lamb. You see a morally corrupt act. I see charcoal roasted leg of lamb. I don’t have to justify or rationalize this for any reason. I find it morally acceptable.

There are species that eat and ones that get eaten. Welcome to life.”

I was more interested in finding out the underpinnings of your morals than forcing mine on you. After all, text would be a very poor medium to do so, in fact I’m not even quite sure how I might go about it.

It is likely that you directly or by proxy, force your moral views on others quite often. If one were to hurt your family, I imagine you would either take matters into your hands or expect the “authorities” to do so for you. But what if the pepetrator does not see it as a wrong act? Is it because you live in a country that allows you to vote and influence your laws, the “public morals?” What if we voted that it was OK to hurt you, is that still a valid forcing of morals when they involve harm to another?

It makes me quite sad to see someone so willing to settle for such non-answers. And to use them to justify such harm. History will judge us all harshly. I think we owe it to your kids and everyone else’s to do better.

Remember, much of the foundations of what we believe, what we accept, how we view the world and our place in it, were laid by individuals who were often far more ignorant than even the average individual today. It would be good, both for your fellow humans, as well as the non-human animals, to question the validity of those foundations.

Warren,

And why do you wish to have anyone’s children grow up in a world where such unnecessary (for survival) and widespread violence and death is normalized in your society? Countless massacres of innocent humans have been carried out by reducing them to the label of “animals.” We help that continue to exist.

@LRH, that HuffPo article was great. But did you read the comments? I read about the first 300, and nearly all of them were what your quoted paragraph referred to: parents who insist that they are completely mistake-free when it comes to their children.

Warren,

And don’t take the above to mean I was out to make a fool of you. Just another one of my hypotheticals for us all to consider. Just trying to become less ignorant, day by day, and if I can maybe help someone else, well thats good too.

It is certainly sad as to what happened
I am sure no one wantsď it this way. However, how would we feel if the gorilla slammed the child against the wall? Should that chance. have been taken? I feel that it should NOT have been! The 400 pound animal was getting agitated. The right decision wad made. Now we need to live with it.

Tell them again, Miss!! Thank you.

Child safety expert Kimberlee Mitchell, who runs a childproofing business in southern California called Boo Boo Busters, said attractions need to be made as safe as possible because many people drop their guard at an amusement park or zoo.

But even an attentive parent can be distracted, she said.

“It’s unthinkable that a zoo exhibit would be created in such a way that a little 3-old-boy could climb in,” she said. “He shouldn’t be able to get in there even with his mom’s head turned.”

I disagree.

This is not Free-Range. This is gross negligence.
They may be mitigating circumstances but you are ultimately responsible for your child.

The zoo did its job.
It kept THEIR investment from escaping.
The gorilla’s housing met codes with regards to public viewing.

He willfully with intent did this and his parent did not stop him. He did not slip and fall.

Obviously, she does not appreciate the seriousness of this and in future what can we
expect in regards to this child’s safety? This was a rare and endangered species.
I find it disturbing that she works in a day care.

It doesn’t matter what this witness says, she should not have been put in her situation to
begin with.

When you visit an art museum and let your child run amuck you will be asked to leave.
They protect their investment. She should never be allowed back into any zoo, she’s a liability.

You know I like you Lenora but you’re wrong. This has nothing to do with judgment.
And if you insist on 100% absolute safety in a zoo, it may not be possible. Maybe we should shut them down because you know what, animals deserve protection too.

The boy was 3 or 4 (depending on what story is accurate). The age of reason is 7. This has nothing to do with rules. Many preschoolers break rules regardless of how well they have been taught said rules.

I used to take my kids to the zoo often at that age. I expected it to be child-friendly. I think that’s reasonable. I didn’t expect it to be easy for a 4yo to get into a large animal’s enclosure. No, I didn’t “allow” reckless behavior, but I didn’t consider the zoo to be a place where I needed to be on high alert, holding my kids’ hands in a death grip or keeping them on a leash.

Not sure if the zoo should have had better barriers. I will leave that up to zoo experts to figure out.

The main lesson here, in my opinion, is that accidents are simply accidents. Everyone wants to talk about whose fault it is. “It wasn’t the gorilla’s fault. Arrest the parents.” Why does it have to be anyone’s fault? Why is it an outrage at all, instead of a “let’s learn from this” and a relief that the child is OK? Would they be calling for the mom’s arrest if it had been some unpopular, non-endangered species that had to be killed to save the boy? (Like, say, a pit bull in the neighbor’s kennel?) All this holier-than-thou like these armchair zookeepers would have been so thoughtful if a bigass gorilla was throwing them around ….

I wouldn’t even want to go to the zoo, as a parent or a child, if I had to be chained to my kids / parents the entire time. I supposed the post-Harambe zoo outings will be like that thought, thanks to all this self-righteous outrage.

I don’t have time to read all the comments, but I have to say I’m surprised at Donna – if it’s our regular Donna, the attorney. No, in general parents are NOT responsible for damages caused in cases like this, when their little kid has dome something dumb and someone got hurt.

We might want to make it right if we can. How is this couple going to make it right? Raise Harambe from the dead or pay for a new Harambe or a new and better gorilla enclosure? Really? She just watched her little boy get bashed around by King Kong and you’re mad because she didn’t apologize?

She has said that she refuses any donations from those sympathizing with her, and that they can give the donations to the zoo instead. Is that good enough for you?

Another thing you know as an attorney – you can’t publicly admit guilt when the stakes are high. She is wise to say little or nothing.

As for your wise parenting advice – I was an intelligent, disciplined, and level-headed kid, but I have a number of memories of doing just like this kid – running of into danger after my parents explicitly told me not to. You make it sound like that is a rare occurance or it only happens to parents who have notoriously horrible children who clearly need to be leashed. That only shows your lack of experience with different kids.

ManorGorilla

I have it figured out. You struggle with morals all the time. You actually lack moral conviction and strength. I see people like you all the time. Weak people like you cannot understand how people like me can be so strong and certain. You believe because you struggle that everyone struggles. Not the case, as I have yet to find myself with a moral dilemma. Strength of character……you should try it.

A lot of it is confidence and not giving a rat’s ass what you or anyone thinks of me.

As for my kids, they all love animals and they all love to hunt, fish and eat what was killed. Wouldn’t have it any other way.

You also the word violence like it is a bad thing. Why?

Has anyone mentioned yet that THE FATHER WAS THERE AS WELL? But gosh, blame the mum because misogyny.

Yes, I think it was a terrible accident. ‘How could he have got so far without anyone noticing?’ – well, he could have slipped away in a moment of inattention and the last direction anyone thought to look was for him heading into the enclosure? Or Mum thought he was with Dad and Dad thought he was with Mum? That’s a really common reason for losing a child for a few minutes and it happens very easily.

Of course there are now lots of uniformed idiots throwing around child protection language (especially ‘Negligence’) because they think it shows the world how concerned they are for the welfare of the child, never minding that they are making a serious and hurtful allegation about a parent on the basis of once incident and actually implying that their children would be better off going through the trauma of separation of their parents than staying with them because one accident occurred.

You don’t consider a zoo to be a place to be on high alert?!

Its not your backyard! There are signs posted. If you want to ignore them, well…

And have you stopped to consider that maybe all of this vitriol towards this mother
is because she isn’t accepting responsibility.

You want 100% safety with viewing capabilities and child friendly and blah, blah, blah…
These are wild beasts! Not housecats.

Well, you couldn’t be more wrong!

Okay, you say this can happen to any mother and child on any day?

Then lets harness all children who go to the zoo and put trackers on them and patrol you and question you and make all of you pay and pay and pay to keep your child safe if the situation is that unpredictable.

I pointed you at the exact statute, you twit. If you find that to be “a questionable source of legal information”… well, you’re a twit, but I already covered that.

Covered it? Where? The majority of the legal information you provide is either incorrect or incomplete. I know that you don’t work in the legal field, but legal research often includes more than doing a brief search under the subject name. You have been caught in the past with giving incorrect advice and will just deny you said what you said. Don’t get me wrong. I am not suggesting that only lawyers are capable of understanding laws. There are plenty of lay people that have an excellent understanding, but you don’t appear to be one of them.

You have little credibility, which is why I was hoping that someone that actually lived in Ohio would comment.

300 messages in, I think I finally understand why so many keep calling this an “accident”. They mean “mistake”.

“But I think Donna is correct, that people are saying “this was an accident” in the sense of “there’s nobody to blame here”, and they’re incorrect, possibly but not necessarily intentionally.”

Not with me. Since the boy was too young to fully understand the consequences of his actions, I look to the parents. This was an accident on their part – one child running off during a moment of inattention/while tending to other children. Also as a direct response to those who are saying that the parents, and even the boy, should have been shot instead of the gorilla. To those people who insist there needs to be a CPS investigation and the parents belong sterilized or jailed and the boy in a group home. You might not jump to such conclusions, but many people are and those are the attitudes to which I insist, “It was an accident.”

No Betsy, we wouldn’t consider a zoo to be a place on high alert. We don’t live our lives thinking pretty much the entire planet is under apololiptic attack.

Go back to playing Farmville or Candy Crush already.

“No matter how much verbiage you spew, it doesn’t mean your repeated invocation of this particular opinion is any more correct.”

You have cause and effect backwards. It gets repeated BECAUSE IT IS correct, not TO MAKE IT SO.

“And yet here you are, three days later, 300 comments in, still offering opinions when it is none of your business.”

Lapses in parental judgment and/or attention become other peoples’ business when those lapses affect other people.

Quote:

“A properly supervised 4 year old does not end up in a gorilla enclosure. Full stop”

That’s like saying “a properly raised child NEVER misbehaves”. Only in a perfect world!

As for the question of whether a human life is above an animal’s life – this question has always fascinated me, so I will dive in.

I am an avowed omnivore. I love my meat as much as I love my asparagus, however, I also love animals and for a time the question about whether it was OK to kill and eat them bothered me. Then I learned about how plants communicate – send chemical messages through the air via leaves and through the soil via roots. I once read how some plants, when being eaten by an animal, will send messages to the plants around it and those other plants will create or exude foul tasting substances which makes the animal less likely to eat it. So, if eating animals is wrong because ‘they have feelings,’ how does that argument not extend to eating plants? Just because someone can’t imagine how plants feel pain and emotion doesn’t mean that they don’t.

I think it comes down to the tribe/clan idea someone pointed out earlier. Humans relate most easily to those they have the most in common with, and ability (or willingness) to tolerate ‘otherness’ varies greatly. Some people will exclude all those not part of their immediate family, some may extend that to nation or race, and others extend it to any creature with eyes that see, ears that hear and hearts that pump red blood through their bodies. My path has been taking me to even further extremes – all life, anything that consumes energy to live and grow and perpetuates their genetics through reproduction, is of equal inherent importance.

This leaves quite a conundrum. How can I justify perpetuating my life at the expense of another’s? By realizing that the will to survive is part and parcel with life and my death by starvation would be no more or less a tragedy than the deaths of those I consume.

Anyway, there’s a bit of my crazy. Hope it was entertaining, if nothing else.

The death of this animal is an unfortunate tragedy, but the rescue of the child is a job well-done and an example of a well-designed and executed system, one better than the gorilla exhibit itself; both man-made.

I concur with Lenore: “What is easier than all of these is to sink into the sewer of self-righteousness and pretend that if only someone had been doing what we believe WE would have done in that unpredictable situation, everything would be peachy. That way we get to feel smug AND angry — a heady combination, and the perfect kindling for a witch burning.”

Lets not burn the witch. Hasn’t this family been through enough?

Betsy

No gorillas in my backyard either. Though moose, deer, bear, coyotes and the occasional wolf are quite common. So what’s your point?

Sorry I don’t agree. you going to blame the zoo?

Betsy

Simply put you are just self-righteous and blame others to feel superior.

How does it feel to be perfect?

Alexander,

“Are you really going to compare eating meat to slavery? Eating meat to BBQ live puppies?

That my friend is called a straw man argument. Try again.

Self righteous vegetarians like you make everyone else look like a lunatic by association.”

You haven’t articulated a difference. You’ve simply acted as if the difference is obvious. If it is so obvious, would you care to point it out? At one time the inferiority of the african race was seen as the obvious order of things, you probably disagree and have reasons for doing so.

I’m simply seeking an explanation, in no way am I self righteous, though if you would care to point out instances of that I would be happy to reevaluate. I have not forced you to hear my views, standing outside your place of work or play, shouting. You chose to read them, simply ideas, questions, and criticisms. Perhaps the lack of concrete answers is simply because you lack them, and your negative opinion of me is because these shortcomings have been highlighted in your own mind? We are all ignorant of much, we would be wise to remember this.
——

I am not obligated to educate you. The obvious difference is, if I eat meat in the park it’s called a picnic. If I BBQ a puppy in the park I would be arrested, reviled, or possibly lynched. This is called reality.

The reason you are a self righteous lunatic is exactly because you compare normal behavior to psychotic behavior as though there is no difference.

If you’re a seeker of truth as you claim, you’d do well to avoid insulting everyone around you by drawing such ridiculous analogies. But that’s the thing with self righteous people who think they know better. You are patently incapable of understanding that reality is integral to philosophy.

Alexander,

“I am not obligated to educate you. The obvious difference is, if I eat meat in the park it’s called a picnic. If I BBQ a puppy in the park I would be arrested, reviled, or possibly lynched. This is called reality.

The reason you are a self righteous lunatic is exactly because you compare normal behavior to psychotic behavior as though there is no difference.

If you’re a seeker of truth as you claim, you’d do well to avoid insulting everyone around you by drawing such ridiculous analogies. But that’s the thing with self righteous people who think they know better. You are patently incapable of understanding that reality is integral to philosophy.”

Who creates this reality? You act as if want my human arms to allow me to achieve flight unaided, and I am simply a fool because I refuse to acknowledge gravity. But much of what you are likely calling reality is simply something a hairless member of the great ape family decided, at some point in the past.

Who defines psychotic behavior? The majority? That would seem to retroactively legitimize quite a few horrors in history.

If one were to have stolen you from the hospital shortly after birth, one could theoretically mold you into the leader of some extremist vegan terrori organization. Your mind craves stories, especially at a young age, and your society just feeds them to you in order to perpetuate itself. Just like how most US citizens are perfectly fine with their government engaging in genocide from its inception, because of course they would not call it genocide, it was manifest destiny.

Your society is powered by exploitation and abuse, without it, your “civilization” comes crashing down.

Again with the false analogies. If you acted like your arms alone allowed you to achieve flight, I would call you a fool as well. I would even invite you to jump off a cliff and fly to help reduce pollution in the gene pool. Because you would then, also be a fool. As much of a fool that thinks BBQ’ing children is the same thing as eating a chicken.

Society developed this way for a reason. Humans are naturally hunters and predators. Over time they built up a system of laws and rules that keep them from slaughtering each other over a piece of bread. These laws rightly consider actions that are damaging to society as a whole to be vile. Things like rape, murder and slavery. Other actions are not considered as vile or even at all vile, like eating meat, driving on a sunday, and line dancing.

The process of figuring out what is and is not permissible is constantly evolving and is by no means perfect. You have no idea what would happen if you try to impose the moral supremacy of one imbecile on an entire population. The moral ramifications of doing that by the way far outclass the rights of a chicken not to be eaten. So, if you think you know better than 6000 years of evolution I will leave you to that delusion.

“As I said in my post, originally they were NOT going to pursue charges against the parents.”
Yes, I read that the first time.
Am I to understand that you prefer it when law enforcement agencies decide whether or not to charge someone with a crime BEFORE they bother to investigate?

“Now, all of a sudden, they’re investigating the matter and you’re naïve to believe that has nothing to do with the public outcry.”
Please stick to the things I say, and don’t insert things I didn’t. For example, here you have imagined me to be naive because I believe that this has nothing to do with the public outcry, and you’ve entirely skipped over the fact that I never suggested the investigation arose for any reason other than public outcry. You’re entitled to hold whatever stupid opinions you’d like; all I ask that you only ascribe to me those stupid opinions I happen to express, and this wasn’t one of them.

“So ANYTIME children get separated from their parents or group at an amusement park, sporting event or zoo, etc. should we investigate the parents or adults for child neglect?”
Here’s another one. At some point, will you be addressing any of the things that I DID say?

“The bottom line is that these parents will NOT be charged with anything because there is nothing there to charge them with.”
I see. Have you offered your prescient abilities to the authorities? I’m thinking of all the money we could save on wasted investigations if they just asked you which cases to pursue, instead of doing all that investigation. We could shut down the entire FBI, and just have the federal bureau of you.

The hypothetical nation of tree hugging, vegan, pacifists unfortunately did not survive history. This was not an accident. If they ever existed, they were eaten by the reality that is this world.

What it comes down to is this. If I had to kill 1000 cows to save my son’s life, I would do it in a second. How about you?

I feel sorry for your children if you don’t think they are automatically more important than an animal.

This quote regarding the dominant human culture (note: NOT human nature, they are not interchangeable) comes to mind:

“We are angry, petty, selfish gods. Quake in fear should our wrath become focused on you.”

Clarification to my last post – a case of a child accidentally falling *in public.* Where there were many witnesses to the fact that it was an accident, and no allegations by witnesses that it wasn’t.

Whatever Warren.

These are wild animal habitats that must be respected.

They are not fortresses.

Don’t want to take extra precautions then don’t.

This is exactly why juveniles are commiting violent crimes at a young age..because they can..and the ones blamed are government, society, child psychologist, sometimes teachers and schools and most always is due to lack of discipline etc no boundaries limits etc . both of my sons have adhd and one has bipolar it’s hereditary in my family I used the tough love technique as they got older.
I put them In hospitals for treatment got them both therapy, worked with therapists and schools to keep them safe in the community etc.they didn’t run amock unsupervised bcuz I was aware of their behavior and impulsive thinking..I has to be I high alert at beaches, zoos , carnivals, restaurants anywhere actually but for certain I didn’t go blame anyone for their actions which at those times when they acted out, disobeyedetc I apologized and fixed it .. my point is it starts at home and although they had issues they never ran off and ended up in a lion pen because in public places such as this I was always on alert..no one is perfect kids mess up and so do parents but parents need to take responsibility and own up to mistakes of their children land or mistakes of themselves as a parent ..instead of placing blame on everyone else.. ..mine turned out pretty well bcuz I was diligent in seeking help and removing them from the situation and distraction and not denying or thinking they weren’t capable of such things

For those that asked the question of why onlookers didn’t try and save the boy..

I think society allows us to be afraid of helping others due to scrutiny and fear of confrontation from other parent let’s ave it parents are protective of their kids even I’m situatons where help.is needed and or required..let me tell you a story..

Once upon a time umpteen years ago I was grocery shopping with my little ones who I kept I’m the shopping cart facing me at all times..we were loaded up with groceries and proceeding to unload at the checkout..I’m front of me was a mother standing behind her Cart unloading groceries as we all do we unload from the back end first..in the front seat of the carriage was a little one oh about 2 ish little adorable boy..as I’m watching her she’s not once looking.over to check her child but rather rummaging through her grocery cart and shmoozing with the cashier about the latest fashions , hairstyles naiksnetc..albeit forget to.g her child was there in the front..as I’m trying to interact with mine who by now we’re ripping open cookie packages screaming bout wanting snacks and grabbing for every thing..preoccupied with my own I happen to glance over and the tooddler now taking a hissyfit for gum and screaming to high heaven to mother I want gummy..gum gum momma gummmm !!! Waaaaah kicking thecarriage causing a scene etc…as if the mother just wanted to shut the kid up she angrily eached over to the candy shelf and grabbed one of those small jugs of powerered gum and and abruptly opened it …. the kind that is powder and as soon as it hits saliva turns to a hunk of gum!!! ! I was appalled and couldent believe it..I was thinking to myself is she actually giving that baby powered gum ?? ..I just stood there tending to my own and minding my my own business as I was taught..my own kids asking rather screaming and upset hey that’s not fair why can’t we have powdered gum ?? I said rather loudly because it’s choke candy and you can die if you choke on it ! My 5 year old states and says yup that’s why we don’t eat lollipops and marshmallows right mom ?? I said yes that’s right and my 7 year old days well you are meamest mother because that little one younger than us gets to have gum and it’s it fair !! I said well sometimes life isnt fair and we just have to live with it and I’d rather have a kid mad than a kid dead ! Meanwhile the mother ( gum lady ) rolled her eyes and snickered at me like I was some kind of mean monster regarding my comments to my childrren I’m guessing then she made this pfft noise and went about her business snickering and glancing at me..anyway all the while mind you this is all of maybe 7 minutes I realize the little toddler now has his head tilted all the way back is pouring the powder Into his mouth I say nothing and just watch in horror and minding my own as I was taught l..all of 30.seconds later the baby gasping for air and trying to hack up the gum he inadvertently swallowed..my kids are frantic screaming he’s choking !! I panic and go into mommy mode and yank the baby out of the cart and begin pounding his back..my kids are frantic I’m frantic but I kept hiting his back ! Them by some miracle out flies the the hugest wad of gu I’ve ever seen !! It flies out onto the floor making a noise as if a rock hit the floor..now baby almost blue is breathing but crying due to shock or so I hope and pray its just that..I cradle him and hug hiim lie his little head on my shoulder and begin rubbing his back saying shhhh it’s okay we got the mean gum out your all better I’m in complete tears now full cry mode and now my kids are stll I’m shock as to what just happened and believe me it took all of about 3.minutes but felt like a dreaded eternity ! After soothing baby and calming him.down the mother says don’t know why he had to go and put that much gum in his mouth and I hope you didn’t hurt him you hit him real hard and now I may have to take him to the hospital she then asked for my name addreess and phone number screaming you better hope my kid ain’t injured ! I calmly kissed baby’s cheek and gave her baby back..took a pen fans old paier from my purse wrote my info and quietly took my children and moved to another register still shaking while I unloaded groceries paid for them and pushed my carriage out of the stor..My kids and me in complete silence for a few hours afterwards still reeling from the after math of what had just happened..

Not one thank you for saving my baby just threats of suing me for potentially causing bodily harm to her baby while trying to save his life from choking..

We never forgot that ordeal and I have made a habit of garnering my motherly instincts with regard to even touching someone else’s kid ! That ordeal made me angry on all levels and it took a long time to get over it and I prayed to God every day that I hadnt hurt that child and always paranoid about getting a letter in the mail suing me for damages etc..from that day on I vowed to just walk away and mind my own like I was taught.

I know this was long but I wanted people to understand why many do not help in situations such as the gorilla incident..scrutiny from others, onlookers, police the bits parents etc….parents are their own worst enemy sometimes..I fully understand the anger with regard to this specific situations..

I am 100% sure none of my kids would run into an animal exhibit and jump down a 15 foot wall. If my child was like that, he would either be strapped into a stroller, being held by an adult, or on a leash. For this kid, I vote for a leash.

“So the question is — does one kill an endangered gorilla because there is a X percent chance (10%?) that he may harm the child? That is a more complex question.”

Work it through. Four possibilities: If there’s a 1/10 chance that he’ll harm the child, there’s a 9/10 chance that he won’t (and this is ignoring side issues, such as “what if the child took injuries to the fall that will kill him?”)

If you play the 90% side, and it comes up right, you saved a gorilla. On the other hand, if it comes up wrong, you’re the jackass who just stood there while a gorilla killed a child. At BEST you are fired, the gorilla is never on public display again. At WORST, you are fired AND sued AND charged with a crime, the gorilla is put down..

If you play the 10% side, and the gorilla kills the child anyway, well, you did your best to save the child, and nobody blames you (except for a few crackpots who complain that you weren’t ready to shoot the gorilla at any moment.) If you shoot the gorilla and save the child, you saved the child, yay!

I’m not suggesting that you can do this risk-reward calculation in real-time as the gorilla is playing ragdoll with a child, but it turns out that the right play is the one they jumped to.

So the only thing that was preventative was the bullet. Okay.

“I said rather loudly because it’s choke candy and you can die if you choke on it ! My 5 year old states and says yup that’s why we don’t eat lollipops and marshmallows right mom ??”

What exactly is choke candy?
Maybe your children can’t eat lollipops at age 5 because of your parenting, but mine ate them happily at young ages without *you can die if you choke on it!*. There are many very real dangers to my children, but a lollipop or a marshmallow didn’t make the list- they learned how to eat them slowly and enjoy them without mom’s candy death patrol rants.

I have a hard time reading your example not because of the typos, but the overall sanctimonious tone that you are a better parent and save lives of kids eating choke candy and the terrible gum moms of the world. I suggest this site for you(on Facebook):

https://www.facebook.com/sanctimommy/

The Dr. Seuss meme: “If I Ran The Zoo” By Everyone On The Internet is brilliant.

“Let’s not burn any witches as we mourn the gorilla. — L.”

Of course YOU would say that 😉

It’s danger and when danger is near hold on to your kid dear and don’t play with there lives.

@Esther. You saved that baby’s life! Great story and kudos! I love it. It is so wonderful that you were there that day to clear his airways. Saving a child’s life is a wonderful, heroic act, whether or not you get a thank you from some random ingrates. I hope someday you’ll feel pride rather than hurt feelings over the incident.

Disclaimer, I’m not saying it’s ok to bust out the Windows when you see happy kids waiting in the car. I don’t think calling cps on a 3rd grader walking down the street is heroic. But performing an emergency Heimlich on a baby at the market? Awesome.

The statement was meant to be pondered and not answered. The silence is well worth it.

@grant ponder huh? Really? but yet you answer apublic blog sure grant sure! and as far as silence you have not done that either. God bless.

@manorgorilla You commune with gorilla god huh? Good for you how is that going by the way? Smh

John D. are there any Zoos near ‘Langley’ where i presume you are from?
Maybe try and get out of your cubicle more often?…but i guess ‘they’ must pay well for your character count keep typing!!…career bloggers always seem to have diarrhea of the fingers!

@ grant first of all I don’t live near a Langley. For you ” there is no peace saith the Lord unto the wicked” get thee behind me Satan. You are all hot and bothered because the truth hurts does it not? Please do everyone a favor go join Harambe please! He waiting on you. “He that comes in with vanity shall go out in darkness and his name shall be covered in darkness and he shall never ever see the son.”

John D,

It’s OK, thanks for asking. I’m new to this but it seems like its going to be good. The gorilla god, praise be upon him and his silverest of silver backs, is almost like a parental figure for me as an adult. He keeps me safe, he forgives me and still loves me when I’ve done wrong (provided I confess to him of course!), and he’s starting to teach me what right and wrong are and where I belong in the world.

Its such a refreshing feeling: safety, contentment, certainty. I’ve also begun to feel a certain superiority over those that do not follow him, but he says thats natural, because of course as a follower of the one true religion, I AM superior.

In L’s experience she was shamed for her view. The shame was not real.

If you look at the poster in the article, which is not about eating meat, gun rights,or anything like that you may be outraged, or agree but at least its real.

I conserve on a very small scale it doesn’t make me an misanthrope.
My neighbor lets her cat run around and destroy property and I rescue him trapped in a garage and keep him from getting hit by cars and keep him from getting hypothermia on cold nights and rescue cardinals out of his mouth. I could sit back and let cardinals expire around me but I happen to love them and cats.

When I leave her a note (Free Speech) about keeping her cat inside or maybe looking into ways to control him better, she called the police on me because I invaded her safe space. I guess I don’t have a right to be angry.

Warren,

Sorry, I wasn’t clear, I can see how that might make what I did distressing. I don’t subscribe to the particular ideologies of kidnapping, murder, etc when it comes to the humans. So you enjoy your steaks and I’ll enjoy my…well I didn’t bother to ask their names.

ManorGorilla

The only thing I find distressing is what you choose as your counter point. You compare the act of harvesting food to the torture and murder of people’s children.

When you stoop to those levels you go from being an advocate for your cause to nothing more than a raving lunatic.

Had a BBQ with friends last night and we enjoyed the t-bones, the London broils, burgers, baked taters with sour cream and bacon, homemade Asian slaw, the cheeses, beer and wine. Nothing beats farm to BBQ to table beef.

Oh and the dogs thoroughly enjoyed the bones and leftovers.

The essential element in the cause of every avoidable accident (note to the crazies who want to ban the phrase “automobile accident”: in normal, non-legalistic language, accidents come with varying degrees of avoidability, and it’s useful to be able to discuss that) is that one or more people failed to perceive a situation as hazardous.

I hope nobody thinks this mother would have let go of her child’s hand for an instant if they had been standing near a cliff edge. But she, and I’m sure most zoo visitors, thought the gorilla enclosure was reasonably child-proof. The fact that the enclosure’s designers and the zoo officials who retained them apparently did too shows that the mother was not unreasonable in her misperception. A classic, if tragic, accident: avoidable, but with no indication of gross negligence.

Lesson for zoo-enclosure designers: There’s a saying that nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious. It’s also easy to underestimate the ingenuity of a toddler.

ManorGorilla
How do I know my beliefs are correct?

Two ways. First don’t have to give crackpot comparisons to make my point. Second and most importantly, humans like other species are designed by nature to be omnivores. Not supplement eaters.

And in your honor we did a leg of lamb on the rotisserie tonight. Mmmmmmmmmm

I do not think the zoo had any choice. I regret the gorilla had to be sacrificed. Bad things happen to good people and animals.
If the zoo had kept the exhibit area in top shap, none of this would have happened.

Warren,

“How do I know my beliefs are correct?

Two ways. First don’t have to give crackpot comparisons to make my point. Second and most importantly, humans like other species are designed by nature to be omnivores. Not supplement eaters.

And in your honor we did a leg of lamb on the rotisserie tonight. Mmmmmmmmmm”

So your first example is really quite poor. And humans are “designed” to survive on certain nutrients, your body doesn’t care where it comes from.

Its OK though, I understand the difficulty. Your society doesn’t encourage you to examine your own beliefs very deeply or at all. And it definitely doesn’t provide any constructs for allowing you to see non-human animals as anything other than resources to exploit.

Your stories make you so certain of your specialness, your superiority. Can’t you see them for what they are? You read (or have read) similar stories to your children as they fall asleep.

Puzzled,

And it is interesting that your refer to me as regurgitating a book. I suspect that is what many others are doing as I seem to recall at least one which preaches man’s dominion over animals and all that…of course it should come as no surprise that the species writing the book is the same species the book considers super-special and unique.

ManorGorilla
Don’t worry about my kids. They have all caught and cleaned fish. Two have kills while deer hunting. And all three have taken part in the skinning and cleaning of moose, deer and bear. My youngest is better at skinning than any of us, she’s a natural.

Never once said we are superior. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite. And like I have always said, when an animal makes a meal of a person, it is just nature. Bear eats me, good do the bear.

I would eat my steak raw if i could, btw. Im pretty carnivorous. I love my fruits and veggies, but with proper exercise and a good moderation of healthy and unhealthy foods, i would thrive best on a high protein diet (meat protein).

ManOrGorilla – see you’re still going on. I find it interesting that you allude to the Bible when talking about regurgitating books in one of your responses to Puzzled. Has it occurred to you that Mankind is the only group of ‘animals’ on the planet to produce the written word?

So I will carry on eating meat from animals that my country has raised for the purposes of eating, and the occasional game beast if I’m lucky enough to be given one by a friend. Personally I don’t go hunting anymore because I am not a terribly good shot, and hate to see animals suffer unnecessarily, which they don’t when dropped quickly. I have no intention, however, of eating my fellow human beings, because every human being in existence is superior to any animal. Whether you in your ‘infinite wisdom’ agree or not.

A post came through on my Facebook feed the other day talking about militant secularism being the new religion. I hadn’t thought about it like that before, but after reading your comments here I can see the sense in the idea. People such as yourself are desperate to believe that there is no God, or indeed no superiority of humanity over the rest of the world, and you are so desperate you’ve turned it into what amounts to a personal crusade. Well, you can peddle your religion if you want….me, I’m perfectly happy with my own thanks. Have a great day.

Elizabeth,

You are describing culture, something humans choose to do.

And I feel we are now arguing a point I did not make: eating meat is unhealthy. I have continued to ask what it is that differentiates the ones we label human from the ones we label animal, what differences make one able to be eaten and the other not. Since you seemed to do somewhat well with the car example perhaps you could take a stab at this one.

@ManOrGorilla
“The transmission of information through other methods are not unique, so why does this particular way of information transmission matter so much?”

So tell us about the conversations you have with gorillas and other animals. What did they think of this incident?

BL,

“So tell us about the conversations you have with gorillas and other animals. What did they think of this incident?”

There are groups of humans whose language I do not speak, is this an argument for the morality of killing and eating them?

And JP makes an excellent point:

“Maybe there’s all kinds of writing on the wall, but since you can’t read it, you don’t even see it.”

Perhaps the dogs are writing and editing their version of the bible, their code for how to live, with each frothy stream projected onto the neighborhood fire hydrant.

If i need to explain the differences between us and animals to you, then you have the problem, not me. To be so naive that you cant see…eating meat is perfectly healthy and necessary. Ive been eating meat my whole life. A combination of genetics and lifestyle have contributed to my current state of health. Up until then, i was one of the healthiest people you would meet. Skinny as a rod, with alot of energy, and an iron clad immune system (still disease resistent). If, as you say, eating meat was unhealthy, then i would have suffered the “ill effects” a long time ago due to the amount i used to consume a week. Think about that. I was healthier during my childhood and i ate more meat back then than i do now. According to your logic, it should be the other way around, or even not possible at all. If i cant convince you, then maybe you should go back to your cave and think some more.

“If i need to explain the differences between us and animals to you, then you have the problem, not me. To be so naive that you cant see…eating meat is perfectly healthy and necessary. Ive been eating meat my whole life”

There have been places and times in human history when people ate other people… it seemed perfectly healthy and necessary to them. If you can’t see that the only difference between then-and-there and here-and-now is a different point of view, then the problem is with you.

“If, as you say, eating meat was unhealthy, then i would have suffered the “ill effects” a long time ago due to the amount i used to consume a week.”
Unless, of course, it takes a long time for the unhealthy effects to accumulate. Eating lead paint won’t kill you right away, either. There’s LOTS of things where the unhealthy aspects are slow-acting and cumulative.

“James, ive been eating meat for as long as i could properly chew and swallow it. Again, it would have affected me a long time ago.”

Maybe it has. In any case, you sound like the folks who insist that smoking can’t POSSIBLY be bad for the health, because grandpas smoked 8 packs a day for 60 years.

“The difference between the “people used to eat other people” and us eating animals is morality.”
Yeah, you have a different point of view than did the people who were cannibal. This is probably as good a time as any to point out the ritual cannibalism of Catholic communion.

“A lion thinks nothing of killing an antelope, but eating a lioness is unthinkable.”
When a new lion takes over from an old lion, the first thing it does is kill all the old lion’s kits. So, you’re argument is that the lion doesn’t think about it?

” Our intelligence is far greater than even the smartest gorilla or monkey and it always will be.”
Didn’t see “Planet of the Apes”?

“God told Adam to tend to the earth, and that he could eat anything except from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Now, if he didnt want us to eat animals, he wouldve restricted Adam to the plants.”
Well, first off, if you read a little bit farther into the book (spoiler alert!) you’ll find that He laid down a few more dietary restrictions. Secondly, if God told Adam to eat anything, I guess it’s a good thing Adam got talked into eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge rather than, say, belladonna or water hemlock plants.

“Now THAT would be wrong, if there were animals out there with human level intelligence like that, but there arent.”
If you’re going to bring fictional characters into it, may I suggest reading “The Restaurant at the End of the Universe”? I believe Douglas Adams imagined a solution suitable for all sides of this debate. If you don’t want to read the whole book (although it is excellent), you can skip to the important part by going to this Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_characters and scrolling down to “Dish of the Day.”

“Therefore, by religious standards, we will always be superior to the animals we live with.”
There are other religions. For example, the religion of the Aztecs. To them, the only suitable sacrifice was human beings, captured enemies.

“either way, you would be stubbornly stuck in your beliefs, so here you go.”
Oh, the irony. Say, before you lecture me any further on being “stuck in my beliefs”, can you identify the beliefs that I am stuck in?

I only brought the Chronicles of Narnia into it to prove how ridiculous the assumption that animals are at the same level of sentience as us is.

The key word in the case of the Aztecs: Were. They WERE real people. They no longer exist. The book reference was to point out how ridiculous it is to claim animals have the same level of sentience as we do. Yes, God set dietary restrictions, but i doubt he cared what Adam did as long as the forbidden tree wasnt touched and Adam was being a good boy. Remember, he gave Adam dominion over the plants and animals. Adam was allowed to do as he pleased with them. You are not proving anything except that you cant take a loss.

Elizabeth,

“You could have just said “no, I can’t conceive of that.” and been done.”

‘I don’t know,’ ‘I’m not sure,’ ‘I’m ignorant about that’ or some variation would be good phrases to not fear as well. Making up answers doesn’t do anyone any good.

You seem to be very focused on being right/correct/whatever and also seem to assume others will be too. These issues aren’t hard facts like who won the 1919 world series, you’ve actually got to think about them, not just accept what a book says. The bible’s explanations of things should be wholly unsatisfying given the centuries that have passed since it’s writing. Hell, even many of the popular stories in it were written much earlier, by other religious belief systems and simply culturally appropriated by the religion it seems you follow.

And since we’re talking about Adam and his produce selection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_(novel)#Fall_of_Man

Warren,

“For the same reason the pride will rip you apart should you attack their cubs, or any other number of species will attack and kill you for going after the young. Pure animal instinct to protect the species ensuring it’s future.”

I wold imagine you would attempt to stop me from eating a strangers’ (to you) kids. The members of other lion prides doing that? Is it cool if I go DeerHunter hunting?

Can a mother eat her babies cause some animals do it? Can I eat some competitor’s babies so the mother more likely to take care of my offspring after I force her to have intercourse with me cause some animals do it?

Continuing to miss the point, either willfully or due to your culture-induced blindness, I can’t tell which it is.

ManorGorilla
You are the one missing the point and more than a few brain cells.

The animals that do kill the young do so for the future of their species. Strength and fitness of the gene pool. Learn before you speak. You are also picking and choosing only those animals that work for your argument, as many more species do not behave in the manner you use as proof. Therefore by your logic those animals that behave like that are inferior to those that don’t. Can you say hypocrite?

As for your forced intercourse comparison you are forgetting that you must prevail over the alpha or dominant male first.

I also would not advise hunting hunters as you would lose.

*sigh* @ Katie . . . the child is four. As in four years old. As in lucky not to remember he’s not supposed to poop in his pants. Following this, I’m sure you believe the child was one of James Bonds’ illegitimate spawn to have made his way through the zoo security. Maybe you’re upset because the mother in question didn’t realize her child was Jason Borne incarnate? At any rate, the world is a better place because you’re around to judge others put into a difficult situation. That surely makes you feel better about your crappy life.

Amusing, Manorgorilla, to accuse me of not providing evidence, when nothing you’ve written so far has been anything but philosophical rants and rambles. No evidence of anything. However, if you want evidence of the existence of God, try going outside and having a look at nature. There hasn’t been time enough in even the most generous estimates of the age of the universe to account for the diversity that exists on just our one little planet.

Or just take a look in the mirror at your own eyes. They’re miraculous organs just on their own. And you have a working body full of other miraculous orhans into which they’re integrated. Never mind the other species on our planet. So, that’s my evidence for you. See if you can do any better.

Cheers.

Suppose this was a daycare field trip, and this same boy did this while a teacher looked away, and the child was severely hurt. Now suppose the teacher said, “Oh, gosh, I’m so sorry but mistakes happen. Kids can scamper off so quickly, you know?” Ms Gregg would rightly find that unacceptable, and the daycare would be sued and the teacher perhaps even prosecuted.

And to the folks who suggest that toddlers can dart off anywhere, well that’s kinda the point, isn’t it? It’s important to note the outcome here could’ve been far worse, and not just for her son: Other well-intentioned adults considered risking their lives to save him. Thankfully they were persuaded against it.

But her statement reads so breezily and exhibits not a shred of humility or even a candid acknowledgement that she didn’t keep due vigilance. For me, this is where I’m most bothered, because I do recognize that we are each capable of making dumb mistakes. At the very least, an acknowledgment and simple apology was necessary but not offered.

Now I understand the kid wants to return to the zoo. How adorable.