Outrage of the Week: Don’t You DARE Throw This Woman in Jail!

But Casey Anthony walks free? I guess I’m confused? So you can be jailed for an accident — but not something you did on purpose, then lied to the police, covered up and then lied again about?

Lenore I feel you anger. We must blaming parents who suffer a tragic loss and start standing beside them offering comfort. Life is dangerous and things happen. We need to be supportive and understanding. Punishing the suffering only brings a feeling of superiority to those who have been lucky enough not to have had anything bad happen to them.

Toddlers run off when no one is looking. Things happen. Sometimes bad things happen. A compassionate society seeks to understand and support. Where are we headed as a society when we charge the innocent when a tragedy takes place?

I would like to know what “A significant period of time when the child was not supervised” means. Does it mean the aunt was working in a room with the door open keeping an ear out for problems and getting up the check on the kids every few minutes, or does it mean the aunt closed herself in a room and came out three hours later to find the younger child was gone?

The aunt may have latched the front door. Is it outside the realm of possibility that the 3-year-old unlatched it? How then is the aunt guilty of anything?
Hard cases make bad law. I think the aunt has suffered, and will continue to suffer, enough without jail time.

I wonder whether (thanks to the gendered structure of most infant and toddler care) any of these judges and prosecutors have ever even had extended responsibility for taking care of a small child. Or have their spouses or nannies done it all?

Jail is for people who intentionally harm others. Everyone makes mistakes and no one watches their kids all of the time. Just because there is a tragedy does not mean “someone” has to be punished. America would be a better place with better people if we rallied around our neighbors who face such a tragedy and lend them support. Instead, we find someone to blame and and hurt and degrade the very person who is facing the tragedy. People die; children die, and sometimes it is because of an accident. That is just part of life. Let’s play our part better and criticize,derail, and criminalize during a tragedy.

As someone whose 24 month old suddenly learned to unlock and open the front door (he’s tall enough to reach the deadbolt if he stands on his toes; my husband has already bought a chain to install out of his reach) I’m inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that this little boy could have unlatched the door.

That being said I too would like to know what a “significant period of time” means. I definitely don’t think you have to watch kids every minute at home but you do have to check on them. For example I routinely leave my 2 year old son downstairs in the gated and (relatively) toddler safe basement playroom while I’m upstairs doing to other things. However, I always have an ear out for him (right now I can tell from the sounds that he’s playing with his mega bloks) and if it’s been too quiet for more than a few minutes I pop downstairs and check on him “just in case”. If she really was just letting a 2.5 and a 4 year old wander around the house without checking on them frequently then I can see how that would fall under the legal definition of negligent.

All prosecuting this poor woman is likely to do is to teach parents to hide when their kids have gone missing or had a fatal accident – in short, make more Casey Anthony’s.

Kind of like beating the kid for punishment only teaches the kid to conceal, have alibis and to lie, isn’t it?

One more thing – folks that get outraged about the prosecution of lethal accidents that happen to children need to check out Radley Balko’s work at the Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko and Reason Magazine http://reason.com/people/radley-balko/blogs

My Grandson is a typical Houdini.. Always unbolting doors and slipping out,since he was 3.He is now 5, and no matter what his mother does he still manages to escape. A good ole butt whipping worked for me when i was his age. .

I’m still visited by guilt over the mistakes I’ve made raising my sons over the past 12 years and have been extremely grateful for my family and friends compassion and comfort. Let’s get off the soapbox and send this woman our prayers and support.

@Katy – That’s exactly the mentality. I’ve quit following parenting forums because that mentality is so pervasive. It can be really bad with things like AAP recommendations. I literally saw a person say “I don’t know if I’d be able to live with myself if my child died and I hadn’t followed the AAP recommendation,” and when I asked what they’d do if their child died despite having followed them, they said they wouldn’t feel so bad.

As someone who’s lost a child, despite doing everything right, I call bullshit, but until you’re actually in that position (and thankfully, most people in our society aren’t, these days; I wouldn’t wish the loss of a child on my worst enemy), there is no understanding how that actually feels and even if you did do everything “right,” there’s still the guilt and feeling of “if only I’d done [insert alternate behavior here]…”

Prosecutor’s spokesman Bernie Weisenfeld said a factor in the case was the finding of a “significant period of time when the child was not supervised.”

This is what makes the case.. what the heck was she doing? Although it’s not mentioned.. the time period that she wasn’t actively supervising the children must have been significant. And that defines negligence in this case

“This is what makes the case.. what the heck was she doing? Although it’s not mentioned.. the time period that she wasn’t actively supervising the children must have been significant. And that defines negligence in this case.”

Remember it’s the PROSECUTOR – you know, that person who is trying justify the arrest and send her to prison – who said this. It is not an unbiased assessment. A “significant period of time” could be anything from 5 seconds to a couple hours, depending on who is defining it. I find it telling that they used the term “significant period of time” rather than the exact amount of time. Again, this was said by the person who wants people to believe that this woman needs to be in prison. He wants to spin things as negatively toward her as he can. “Significant period of time” is more damning than 10 minutes, however, an hour is much more damning than the very vague “significant period of time.” I’m guessing that it wasn’t that long of a time period at all.

And the 2.5 year old need not to have instantly learned to unlatch the door (although that is certainly possible). There was a 4 year old in the house too and 4 year old’s can unlatch doors. I wonder why the 4 year old didn’t tell her mother than the younger child left the house. 4 year olds generally LOVE to tattle.

We know that this child was black. Odds are that his aunt is as well. They also may be lower income as the two sisters and all their children live in one house. Both quite possibly single mothers, again due to the living arrangement. I wonder if the same can be said for the other parents who were not prosecuted after the drowning deaths of their children.

Donna, on August 13, 2011 at 01:50 said:
“This is what makes the case.. what the heck was she doing? Although it’s not mentioned.. the time period that she wasn’t actively supervising the children must have been significant. And that defines negligence in this case.”

Remember it’s the PROSECUTOR — you know, that person who is trying justify the arrest and send her to prison — who said this. It is not an unbiased assessment.

________________

I agree, He could also be including the time after she discovered the child missing. He could also be including the entire time until the child’s body was found (an hour after the police were called according to the article). An hour is certainly – all by itself – a “significant” amount of time.

This leaves me torn. Had it been a daycare facility where a 2 1/2 year old autistic child was left unattended for a “significant amount of time”, it seems that they would be held responsible for this sort of accident. They’re held to certain legal and licensing regulations. But, when it’s a family member, or even a friend, it doesn’t matter what happens to a child as long as it’s an accident? That logic isn’t quite right.

I certainly don’t think it’s a criminal case for the courts but I don’t know… Maybe some sort of community service?

What a tragedy. No punishment meted by the courts will ever compare to the grief this woman will live with the rest of her life (made worse, I’m sure by the blame from society.)

I used to think that the criminal justice system was intended (more or less) to do two things: 1) provide a deterrent to crime and 2) lock people up for the safety of all. Who is going to be safer when this woman is locked up?

To add to the skepticism about the “significant” quantity of time– what is significant to one person may not be to another. In the time it takes me to get something from the fridge and put it on the counter, my son can be up the stairs and gone. Is that amount of time significant? If he got hurt, would that be enough time for me to be charged with negligence?

And determined young children cannot be underestimated. My friend had a scare once– his oldest went biking down the road to a friends. The second-to-youngest (~2years at the time) must have seen him leave… she opened the door while mom was changing the baby (she thought the door opening was her oldest). By the time mom got the diaper on and went looking, the toddler had scurried down their long driveway and out onto the road after the oldest, who could just barely be seen biking away. She had never seen a toddler move that fast.

@Dolly: How close is “close” enough to water to warrant an alarm. We have a lake about a quarter mile away, through heavy brush and such. Does your criteria mean I need to have an alarm on my doors? This story doesn’t say how close the “nearby” lake was.

Lenore, absent more information I really can’t say if the woman charged should be prosecuted or not. While if found guilty she’s eligible for jail, they’re not at that point yet, so to say she shouldn’t face jail (your post’s “hook”) strikes me as somewhat misleading. And really, without more information about why the kids were left unattended in the house, for how long, or under what circumstances — or why the caregiver searched for well over an hour before calling police once she realized he was missing — I don’t think I can judge whether she might or might not be guilty of negligence. I do think that such a thing (negligence) exists and that it should be a crime.

“I do think that such a thing (negligence) exists and that it should be a crime.” Obviously losing her child isn’t punishment enough, then. When did our culture lose its sympathy and compassion? Or did we never have it in the first place?

Socalledauthor: I would say if a body of water or pool is close enough that your child could get to it alone before you would notice them missing and find them, then you need to take precautions. My mother has a shallow lake outside in her backyard and my boys stay there a lot. We don’t have alarms on the doors but only because my boys have never gone outside on their own and are old enough now to listen and obey us when we say “Stay away from the lake.”

However when they were babies we kept them in baby pens and always had the doors locked and did not leave them outside unattended because of the lake. You just have to use your judgment on it and I would err on the side of caution lest you end up like the family the post is about.

You can use your best judgment and err on the side of caution and STILL end up like the family in this post. That’s kinda one of the main themes of free range kids. As a matter of fact, it does sound like this family used it’s best judgment and erred on the side of caution (draining the kiddie pool) and ARE the family in this post.

Yes, once something tragic happens, you can probably always think of something that you could have done different or better. Hindsight is 20/20. Once you know exactly what is going to happen, it’s extremely easy to identify what you could have done different to prevent it from happening. It is ridiculous to hold someone to the standard of “what those of us who know the EXACT result would have done to prevent it before it happened.”

Off-topic, because I don’t even want to think about the topic:

http://notalwaysright.com/harry-potter-and-the-deathly-embarrassments/13072

Loopyloo: See you are doing the right thing though. You put on locks and alarms on the doors. If this mother had done this that child might still be alive right now. I really think childproofing works with free range kids personally because you can feel secure letting your kids wander about the house or yard, etc and know they are safe without you. Or you can not childproof and hover over them constantly. Or you can not childproof and not watch them constantly and then something like this happens. Personally, I choose childproofing so I can poop alone or shower or goof off on the internet or even have sex with my hubby knowing my kids are not in danger. But that is just me.

I prefer to look at history to help determine if society is being stupid or not. If a 2.5yr old ran out of the yard and drowned in a nearby pond while mom’s attention was distracted by gatherng eggs 100 years ago would the police have gotten involved? No? How about 500 years? No? How about 1,000 years ago? No? 50 years ago? No? Yep, it’s a tragic accident and the prosecution is being stupid. Being the 21st century doesn’t make kids any less kids or parents any less human. For some reason though it makes society infinitely more foolish when it comes to what is ‘normal’.

OMG that Harry Potter story link is hilarious! What was that woman’s problem?! I think that had more to do with that she just didn’t want to have to sit near anyone else and less to do with molestation, but that is just my 2 cents. I don’t like sitting right next to strangers either but when I go to popular new movies I accept it is probably going to happen. So either wait to see the movie after it has been out a couple weeks and go at an unbusy time or accept that you are sitting next to a stranger and get over it. She probably just used the molestation thing because she thought it would work and they would leave it alone. You know, sometimes throwing something outrageous out there is enough to make people back down just because of shock.

Criminalizing accidents will not make them less apt to happen. Feeling responsible for the accidental death of a child is punishment enough. Save the court’s time and the jail space for those who intentionally inflict harm on children and others. Kids are curious, and quick. One day, they don’t know how to do something and the next they do. Every parent has experienced how quickly kids can get into things. Most just get lucky in that it doesn’t harm them, or they catch them in time to prevent any serious consequences. A few aren’t so lucky. That doesn’t make them criminals. It makes them human.

Anyone can sit here and say what they think should have been done differently, or why they think it wouldn’t have happened on their watch. But no one knows if it would have or not. Ever forget to lock a door even when it is something you normally do every day by habit? Or forget to turn off the stove? Get distracted for a few minutes? I would bet that every loving caring parent or caregiver who has had an accident happen on their watch never thought anything like this could ever happen to them. But accidents do happen, even when we do all we can to make things as safe as possible.

Question: Would the woman still be prosecuted if the child stuck his head in the toilet and drowned?

Too bad more of these comments weren’t on the article post itself.

Well the “action” of the accused left much to be desired in my opinion. Again – where was she all this time when the child wandered out of the house??

As a former foster parent, I can tell you that some states require toilet locks in all foster homes (I still want to see the statistics on toilet drownings – although I know it is possible, I do not believe every possibility requires a regulation). I can also tell you that if you put a lock on a childs bedroom door, you’d likely be accused of imprisonment (certain types of door exterior door locks could also pose a problem, in case of fire). If you think I’m kidding, I’m not.

In other countries and cultures a 4yo might actually be left in charge of younger siblings, or sent out to herd animals. Thankfully in this country these children were in a home with doors, with an adult, and toys to play with.

It seems as if we have lost all common sense in our society. This is a tragic accident. Nothing more.

Can we at least see more facts of the case before concluding this is a tragic accident and an Outrage?

Must be nice to be a free ranger.. everything is determined to be an accident! Everytime!

Dolly: I fully agree with you about child-proofing enabling free-range, especially when we’re talking about toddlers and pre-schoolers. Free-range for me is more of a plan for when my children are older; for now, they need protection.

But as far as this case goes, the caregiver wasn’t the child’s mother, she was the aunt, and the child wasn’t at his own home. I wouldn’t expect a babysitter to install the expensive and extensive alarm/lock system that we have — but I would expect her to watch my autistic child more closely than she might an NT child (and I would make that *very* clear.) I really need to know how long she left him unsupervised to decide if this was negligence or not but I hate the idea that if you have a child with special needs, NO amount of unsupervised time is acceptable. Because that’s just not humanly possible. :/ Awful things can happen in a split second if you’re unlucky. Not every tragedy is preventable and treating victims of tragedy as criminals won’t stop accidents from happening — if anything, I think people are *more* likely to make mistakes if they’re told they have no margin for error and never a moment to let down their guard.

I have a dear friends who lost their 6-year-old son in a drowning accident a couple of months ago. Instead of blaming the parents, the city provided a police motorcade on the day of the funeral. (The father is a city attorney.) In their grief and sorrow they felt so supported and uplifted. THIS is how we should react to tragedy.

@Dolly– I take greater risks with my child by driving in the car. I’m not going to put alarms on every door (and window?) to prevent a much less likely occurrence. It’s called the illusion of control– since you (generic ‘you’) can’t control the risks of, say, driving, you focus on controlling smaller risks and thus still feel in control, instead of actually accepting and coping with the fact that life is fraught with danger, and yet, most of live through it.

Of course, such an alarm only works when one has central air conditioning. I have to open doors and windows during the day to keep things from getting stifling hot in here during the summer. Not all of them have screens, though if my son was determined enough, he could go through the screen anyway. So, I guess I’ll be negligent if my son got out of a alarmed screen door… or negligent if he suffered heat stroke in a miserable hot house…

PS (sorry)–my post was long enough, but there was yet something else I wanted to say.

Regarding inflated expectations: I remember hearing some years ago hearing about a young boy of about age 11 or so who committed suicide with his parents’ handgun. As I recall, the parent stored the gun in their bedroom AND it was unloaded AND the bullets and gun were stored in a locked drawer AND the bedroom doors were locked AND the windows were even locked. What more could they possibly have done?

Nonetheless–again, as I understand it–the child busted the window and crawled in, busted open the locked drawers etc, loaded the gun–and shot himself dead. And–surprise surprise–there were TONS of people calling for the parents to be prosecuted because they were “negligent.”

Such people like that are morons, frankly, and disturbed individuals with serious issues beyond the scope of this site or any normal site. They need mental help, and it’s not my job to justify my parenting style to such schizophrenics.

LRH

There was a story recently about a small child that drowned in the dog’s water bowl. Can we prosecute the dog for not taking precautions? This has got to stop. No one can predict a child’s behavior before it happens. I’m glad all of those calling for her prosecution are perfect and never ever make mistakes. And this may not even have been a mistake. Kids learn new things all the time that’s part of life.Maybe he didn’t know how to unlock the door the day before, but that day he figured it out. We don’t know all the facts, but until someone points out actual negligence, I’d rather give the mom the benefit of the doubt.

1. We don’t know how long a “significant” amount of time is.
2. We don’t know how far away the lake is from the home.
3. We don’t know for sure whether or not the toddler truly was autistic.

Depending on how long the “significant” amount of time was, this may or may not have been negligence. Depending on how far away the lake was, this may or may not have been negligence. Depending on whether the toddler had special needs, this may or may not have been negligence.

I mean, really, the person who discovered the child missing was someone else who came home and found the door ajar, NOT the woman in the house who was meant to be watching the kids – we don’t know how long the child had been missing without her knowing. It may have been just a few minutes. It may have been hours.

We don’t know how long it took the kid to get from the house to the lake – was there ample time for her to have found the toddler before he got to the lake if shew was keeping a reasonable checking-on-the-kids schedule? (What I mean is, if the kid could have gotten out and gotten to the lake and drowned within 5min, and she was checking every 10min, not her fault. However, if it took the toddler half an hour to get to the lake, and she didn’t even realise he was missing during that time, yeah, negligence.)

Just because there are some things that can hurt or even kill kids while an adult is in the same room – even looking at them or holding them at the time – does not mean that it is not the adults’ responsibility to keep kids safe from the things that adults CAN reasonably prevent. Just because “oh, X can happen to my kid in seconds and I can’t do anything about it” is true, does NOT mean that “Y can happen to my kid if I leave him alone for the half an hour it takes for him to cause Y to happen, that’s not my fault either” is true.

To my mind, whether or not the woman was negligent or simply very unlucky is still in the air until there is more information about the case.

The comments on this new piece are much more rational. Maybe because the first comment is by a rational woman.

http://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/index.ssf/2011/08/aunt_of_autistic_child_who_dro.html

And a more detailed description of the evening’s events… though still with no full timeline:

http://beta.courierpostonline.com/article/20110807/NEWS01/108070335/0/www.courierpostonline.com/Tragic-summer–Glouco-community-copes-with-3-child-drownings

At the risk of being disrespectful Nora, I have to say I am not sure if YOU get it.

“This world is not like when she [your mother] was growing up in the 40’s in Scandinavia.” On what do you base that? I think that’s just your PERCEPTION, and quite possibly a media-driven one, specifically Adam Walsh & Nancy Grace. It sounds as if you’re perpretuating the notion that the world is a scary place and that it wasn’t that way 30-40 odd years ago, a notion that Lenore has blown to bits with FACTS backing this up numerous times.

And you wonder how long the toddler was missing before she called police? What does that matter, and since when do we think we need to call the police about everything? I have noticed that in this country the past 10-odd years or so and it’s irritating. People think they need to call the police about EVERYTHING, when often-times many such things can be handled by the person themselves. Heck, our son was missing awhile back on our own property, took us 10-15 minutes to find him, turns out he was on the road. He wasn’t harmed, and we were more vigilant and it hasn’t repeated itself.

We didn’t need the police for that, and I’m glad we didn’t call. Do you think they would’ve just excused themselves once we told them “never mind officer we found him, false alarm.” No, they would want to press & nag about every little thing unnecessarily, and frankly I could do without it. I dare say Nora you’re letting the Casey Anthony lunacy affect your rational thinking much like way too many other people have done.

Heck in Arizona when I lived there, you would get people who wanted to call the police every-time a couple would verbally fight in their own house. Now I can understand calling if it sounds like someone is killing the other one, sure, or if it’s going on for a long time and creating a disturbance of the peace–but over a 5 minute shouting match people think they ought to call the police? That’s silly. In the same way since when do people, even in the rural areas, feel the need to nag animal control if they have a stray animal in their yard? Have they never heard of just shooting it, or setting a trap and releasing it far away or taking the trapped animal to a local place? No they think they HAVE to nag animal control about it even in the rural areas. Not me, I handle it my own self my own way, just as when we couldn’t find our son for 10-15 minutes–and more people need to do the same. Quit looking to the police for every petty thing.

LRH

LRH, the reason I asked that is because I do know that the police could have helped in the search. that is why I said that. I think we should be able to call the police if a child is missing and they should help us find them. The police have resources they can use to help children that we should be able to use without the fear of being judged for it. I fear that part of the reason the aunt may have waited to call them, was out of fear of being judged, but I wonder if she did call them to help her search the moment they found the door unlocked at 7 pm(instead of 823pm) I do wonder if the child could have been saved? We should be able to call for help in finding our children without worrying that we might be charged with neglect. I did not at any time say the aunt should have been charged, just that we do not have the full story.

I am trying to make the concrete jungle that I now live in a village for my children, and part of that to me means being able to ask for help from my community for help if needed. If we are fearful that we may be charged for asking for help when needed it may delay us from using those resources in a timely manner.

I am perhaps one of the most free range parents I know, but I know my mother, she was negligent in her part on that occasion and many more. I had to learn the hard way growing up. And her time started 70 years ago, in a much different time and place. She even took me hitch hiking as a 5 yr old in Finland and I had to do that myself at 8 yrs old on one of our visits there WHEN SHE LEFT ME IN A DIFFERENT TOWN ALONE. I would never even consider doing that with my children where I grew up in the city. She is constantly telling my children the opposite of what I am trying to teach them and she acts as if I am being unreasonable.

Like last week when I wanted my son to take us home on the subway (part of our how to travel lessons I am giving him). My mother was trying to get us all to go to the far end of the platform, but I wanted my son to learn about the designated waiting area and to have him read me all the safety suggestions they have. She acted like I was being unreasonable and made a comment of how we will have to walk so far when we get off, I guess she forgot of when I was molested at age 9 on the subway on in the last subway car when I was making my first solo flight. I want to let my children fly, but I do know that how she grew up on a farm raising reindeer in the 40’s and 50’s is MUCH different then how I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s in a major metropolitan city in North America, and I do know that when I grew up it is MUCH different (notice I do not say “safe”, the dangers are just different now) then my children are in this day and age. It is my responsibility to teach my children to be safe, something my mother has very little regard of. I know what happened to me on the subway is the minority(it was a stranger, first solo flight etc) but I do know it still happens, and it is my duty to teach my children the safe way, I do not think my children should have go through what I did as a child.

What my mother learned growing up helped us when we were camping in Algonquin park and I found myself face to face with a baby moose at age 7 in the woods, the momma moose was in the forest looking for her young(so was mine;) I got out of that situation thanks to what my mother taught me, now it is up to me to teach my children about the dangers I had to learn about on my own in the city.

A child missing is not a petty thing, and we should be able to call the police to help without fear of being judged. Timing can often mean everything with small children and water. I hope the aunt did not delay her call because she was worried about what the police would do to her.

@ Nora – But that fact is that we shouldn’t HAVE to call the police in order to find our children lost in our own yard to avoid prosecution. I MAY (and that depends on the situation) call the police if I lost my child on a subway. It is a public area and the kid could literally be anywhere in the city. You may need more resources than one family. However, I’m not going to call the police immediately because my child slipped out the door at home. I’m gonna check the yard and neighborhood BEFORE I waste the time of the police force. Unless you happen to live right next door to the police station, it’s going to take time for the police to get there, get information and begin a search. TIme that your child is getting farther away. It makes much more sense to head out immediately to look for the child when you are likely to find him close by.

That sounds like what this woman did. She and her family looked around their own yard and neighborhood. Once they couldn’t find him close by, they called the police. That is what SHOULD be done. It is not the police’s job to solve every minor problem for us. Yes, this ended up being far more than a minor problem but generally a toddler missing for a short time at home is a minor problem. There are usually only a few of them and many of us. We have to try to solve some of our problems on our own. Note that it was the FAMILY that found the child in the lake, not the police. I’m not sure that the police presence added anything.

Since the child was still alive when he was found, he drowned literally moments before he was found. Maybe if they had not stopped looking to call the cops, inform them of what is going on, bring them up to date on the search, answer their questions etc., the child would still be alive. Maybe involving the police is what caused the delay in finding him and ultimately his death. We will never know. It sounds to me that the child was simply a step ahead of them while they were looking. This case should hinge on how responsible she was being at the time that the boy escaped from the house, not on the very reasonable delay in calling the police who ultimately didn’t even find the child.

@ Donna- “It is ridiculous to hold someone to the standard of “what those of us who know the EXACT result would have done to prevent it before it happened.”

I agree with this and everyone who’s said something similar. It reminds me of the character “Captain Hindsight” on Southpark, who swoops in after an accident/fire/whatever and tells everyone what they should have done so that it wouldn’t have happened. And that’s all he does. It doesn’t change anything or save anyone, but boy, are people glad to have that guy around!

I don’t know enough about this particular case to comment on it, but I agree with whoever said that negligence should not be determined by outcomes- an act is negligent whether there are negative consequences or not. I hadn’t thought about it that way before, but it makes so much sense.

It is not a case of Captain Hindsight when you have kids of your own who you have kept safe from similar things by being proactive and taking good precautions when it comes to childproofing and supervising them well. You can call it smug and I happily admit I can and am smug sometimes about the fact that my kids play as much as any other kid but they also have never been seriously injured. We were willing and able to put in the time and money to childproof our home well and our kids as well as our nice things are undamaged. I have a right to be proud of ourselves for that.

I also have a right to try to give others advice on what we did and how well it worked out so they might consider doing the same for their kids. If they don’t, that is their choice but if something bad happens when they did not heed our advice they have no one to blame but themselves.

Yes, Dolly it IS Captain Hindsight. ANYTHING said about this case is said with the advantage of hindsight. We now know that whatever this family did may not have been sufficient. You are looking for things done wrong knowing that something clearly went awry and what the ultimate result was. That is hindsight. It actually doesn’t even arise to the level of Captain Hindsight since you know NOTHING about the situation in this house except for the end result and are deciding what you would have done better knowing that end result.

“We were willing and able to put in the time and money to childproof our home well and our kids as well as our nice things are undamaged.”

I did absolutely NO baby proofing. Actually, I do think I used a gate at one point because it’s still sitting broken in the carport so I must have used it for something. My child and things are also completely unharmed. I could sit here and insist that you completely wasted your time and money and handicapped your children but I won’t because I don’t know your children or your situation. Unlike you, I don’t assume that my way is the only way and everyone else who does things other ways is wrong.

“I also have a right to try to give others advice on what we did and how well it worked out so they might consider doing the same for their kids.”

You don’t have a right to give anyone advice who doesn’t ask you for it.

“If they don’t, that is their choice but if something bad happens when they did not heed our advice they have no one to blame but themselves.”

Wow … just wow. That is really all I can muster about this comment this early in the morning.

“I also have a right to try to give others advice on what we did and how well it worked out so they might consider doing the same for their kids.”

If I remember correctly, Dolly, your kids are not yet school aged. Which means by definition that you don’t KNOW how well your advice has worked out, because it hasn’t worked out yet!

If you mean “they haven’t drowned yet,” that’s a pretty low standard. There are probably crack mothers who can say the same thing. That’s not meant to compare you to such a mother, just to say that it’s not really a firm basis on which to say your advice is the best way to go. There are other considerations beyond “they haven’t drowned yet” to take into mind, and some of them don’t play out while the kid is still a preschooler.

Absolutely disgusting!! Goes back to Nanci’s point last week: bad things happen to kids, as horrible as that is. Even when we try our best. No need to blame a grieving parent. We should be holding her in our arms and offering condolences and peace. Our reaction to a story like this says alot about who we are, and who we are ain’t pretty if this woman is prosecuted. Shame shame shame on everyone who does not offer their support to this woman!

“”Nora: “growing up in this technical world we are living in, and the possibilities of the internet. “”

Nora – the “internet” has no other “possibilities” than can be turned off and on by a simple siwtch.

No boogie man reaches out through a computer screen – it is simply not possible.

It’s unpopular to admit this simple truth – but if we teach our children self respect and self preservation they won’t be meeting up with stranger for sexual encounters.

Things like that don’t happen by accident, and like I said before – no one can reach through a computer screen nd grab them.

Just sayin’…

Dolly – I raised three kids to adulthood without so much as a broken bone, stitches or poisoning of any kind.

Anyone out there interested what I did?

Nothing.

I was simply lucky.

And so are you -so far.

If it is meant to be – it will be. You are not God, although you seem to think you have the power of life and death in your own hands.

You don’t.

Things have gotten more outrageous in my 12 years outside the U.S. Must—brace—myself—for—reverse—culture—shock.

“You can’t have a community when this is what happens when people help each other out.

I don’t get who decided that whenever anything bad happens to a child it is automatically criminal negligence.”

correct. It’s got to the point where people are afraid to even look at each other for fear of it being misinterpreted and them being sued or arrested.

Significant period of time would be important to me also. Things can happen very quickly.

My aunt has very bad arthritis in her hands, so she can’t open the child proof lids on medications. The pharmacist put her medication in a container with a snap lid. My aunt put her medication on the top shelf of some very tall cabinets. I’m 5′ 11″ and I need a small step ladder to get to the cupboard.

She was watching her young (less than 3 yo) grandson. She left him watching a TV show to go to the bathroom less than 5 minutes. In that time he pulled a chair over to the cupboards, climbed from the floor to the chair seat, from the chair seat to the counter. Then as near as we can figure he opened the top cupboard – and used the the shelves as a ladder to get to the top shelf. Got back down opened up the medication. He was found with some pill spread all around him and refused to answer if he had eaten any.

Because of the nature of the medication it would have harmed him before it could be found by blood tests. So the docs pumped his stomach. Turned out he hadn’t eaten any.

The parents and grandmother were questioned in the ER about what happened. The in house social worker’s comment – I don’t know what else you could have done, you have quiet a little monkey on your hands.

My aunt found a lock box that she could open with a key, and started keeping her medication in that. Thankfully the imp was old enough to know better than to take other people’s meds by the time he learned to pick a lock. (He can take anything mechanical apart and put it back together again.)

Why do Americans insist on criminalizing EVERYTHING. It’s an accident people, it happens!

So what if you let you kids play in your OWN HOME alone? First, you aren’t allowed to leave them at the park, then you cant let them outdoors alone, now you have to be helicoptering inside the home too? WTH? If I cannot leave my kid to play alone in our home, there is no hope in this world.

Is nowhere safe enough? I guess “nowhere” is the only safe place, since it doesn’t exist.

To those who are calling for punishment- this mom drained her pool and took every reasonable precaution. I’m sure her home was childproofed. Let me guess- you never thought your kid couldn’t do something, but found out later they could? amazing! Good for you! leave this mom alone- and don’t be so smug, it can happen to YOU TOO.

Karin: I doubt you would have hated me in high school since I was the quiet nerd who all the other girls made fun of. So if you are insinuating I was a stuck up bitch in high school, you would be so so wrong. I won’t expect an apology though.

I take my eyes off my kids 100 times a day. That is not what anyone is arguing. What I am arguing is if you are going to take your eyes off them, which you should and you have to eventually, it is a very very very good idea to have things taken care of so your child won’t be hurt when you are busy. Especially if you have pools or a lake or a pond near your house.

Hmmm, one is now judgmental for pointing out that someone is being judgmental. Only you Dolly. Only you.

Dolly – the fact that you think I was talking about you says more about you than me. Also, the fact that you feel I owe you an apology.

People like you feel that a parent is responsible if a child gets out of the house and gets hit by a car. You only need turn your back on a child for 3 minutes for them to get out of the house. Once they are out it’s too late….the time it takes to search the house is another 3-5 minutes – maybe more. That is up to 10 minutes of no parental supervision already…and they are in the street. So – seeing as people like you hold a parent responsible for anything bad that happens while in the street, a parent should be held responsible for not looking at them for those initial 3 minutes. That means – you are recklessly endangering your child every time you pee, blowdry your hair, talk on the phone…etc…

Bad luck is pretty rare…so most kids are alive not because their parents are so freaking special…but because good luck is much more prevalent.

Does anyone have an actual measurement on how far away the lake/pond is from the house? When my son was that age, he could run a quarter mile in less than 10 minutes, barefoot. How far away does one have to be from water to be “safe enough” to not have to have door locks? I am betting that this family thought they were far enough away.

And what about if there is a fire after they put the door locks on? Would the parents be charged with homicide for preventing their kids from getting out? Which is more likely to happen? What would the police say? What would the lawyers say? Do I have to go before a judge to figure out if I need to keep my kids in or out in order to keep them safe? Is this what is happening in the apartment fires where families of 4 kids or more die? Because the locks are so hard to use that they can’t get them open? Hey, I have a new product that I can sell: Door locks with sound activation – if it hears a smoke detector it opens easily, otherwise it keeps the kids in. I think maybe there is a magazine that would sell that….but you better keep your batteries up to date in your smoke detector!

When I was in college, I worked at a daycare. One of the women who worked there had a fish pond in her front yard (like many others in that neighborhood.) In the middle of winter, with 2 inches of snow on the ground, a two year old let himself out of his house when he was supposed to be napping. Approximately 1/2 hour passed from the time the mom checked on him again. It was another 10 minutes before she was able to figure out he was outside and track him down. He was face down in the pond. He was fortunate – it was cold and he was little. He was revived, but did have some disabilities. The mom was NOT charged (although people did wonder aloud how the boy could be gone for so long – people who didn’t have kids of their own.) The town council made a law saying that the ponds had to have fences around them. The kicker was, like so many knee jerk reactionary laws, it did not apply to existing ponds because so many people came in and protested. This woman did fill in her pond, but only because she loved kids and couldn’t stand the thought that it might happen again.

This boy had traveled about 4 blocks to get to the pond in the middle of winter. Was that too close? Should the mother had known that he would be attracted to the water and had locks to keep him in?

I just laugh when people criticize others for being judgmental because there is no way to do that without in turn judging them.

Yeah, but Dolly, you started it. You always start it. It’s not like sometimes it’s Donna who starts it and sometimes it’s SKL and sometimes it’s LRH and sometimes it’s me and, oh, yeah, sometimes it’s you. Since you’ve started posting, it’s ALWAYS you.

They are predominantly used for children thought to have been abducted.

Their original purpose was only for children who were KNOWN to have been abducted and to be in danger when the abductor or his/her vehicle could be identified. Using it for other purposes starts to water it down to the point where, if they’re frequent enough, people start to ignore them.

On the other hand, now that I’ve taken a deep breath, I can see how this might be a “everybody is misreading Dolly” situation. I’m not saying it necessarily *is* – only she knows what she’s really thinking, none of us are mindreaders – but she started off on such the wrong foot that I know I certainly tend to see the worst in her comments, and I really doubt I’m the only one.

@ Cheryl W –

How often and for how long are toddlers left unattended in a doctor’s office?

Karin: My kids have never gotten outside on their own. Ever. Because the doors are blocked off by nice gates. So, it is not all luck. Some of it is that I was proactive about it.

You are so special Dolly. You should give yourself a big pat on the back for being so perfect and so much better than everyone else. Nothing bad will ever happen to you or your children due to your absolute perfection. You most certainly deserve a medal.

Enjoy your gloating and smug satisfaction sweetheart, life shits on everybody eventually.

Sera: yeah with doctor’s offices it is not like toddlers are left alone. In the home they will be though.

People are misreading me again. It is not ALWAYS the parent’s faults. Sometimes it was a very horrible accident and nothing could have prevented it or it was so out there that no one would have thought that would have EVER happened. That can happen to anyone, even me.

But some kid’s deaths are easily prevented and that is all I am saying. I don’t think the parents need to go to jail in those circumstances, but yes, I am going to sigh and shake my head because that child should be still alive if they had just taken some precautions. I am saddened by a child’s death and all the horror the family has to go through and if it can be prevented in any way, it should.

I will point out potential dangers to my other mom friends if I see them. Because I care about them and their kids. Moms ask me about childproofing stuff because they see how well I have done with my house. When my friend’s little boy was electrocuted on the high voltage socket and almost died, she was an anti-childproofing person. Like some of you. And then her son almost died. I told her where to look for a socket protector for a high voltage outlet. I actually suggested One Step Ahead since they have more rare child proofing stuff and I suggested Lowes or Home Depot. That is what I meant by advice. Since her son almost died, maybe she changed her beliefs about childproofing.

.

I feel for you Dolly, I think some people may be misreading many things. I have started and stopped many posts, because I know someone is just going to miss-read it and tear into it, even in the cases that they agree with me! haha

It is very hard to get what I think out in words. I am trying and I hope I can continue to do so here. I hope you do too Dolly, we are all here to learn from one another:)
I understand your children are quite young, I hope as they get older you give them many opportunities to prove themselves responsible so they can fly to their full potential!

I think we have to find a balance of what works for us in our own situation. What works for one might not work for the other.

Quote from the Courier Post article linked above:

“After a frenzied search of the home and neighborhood, the police were notified around 8:23 p.m. and officers began setting up for a coordinated search of the area. Frustrated the search hadn’t reached the lake, Tucker donned a swimsuit and bathrobe and headed down with a friend shortly after 9 p.m.”

It puzzles me that they wouldn’t check the lake first. If I child I had anything to do with came up missing, one of the first places I’d check would be any nearby water. I’d figure that if the child got to the water, that would be the situation in which a fast rescue would be the most critical, so I’d want to rule that out first. If they are elsewhere in the neighborhood, a few minutes delay in finding them probably won’t matter much, but at the lake minutes could be the difference between life and death.

oh no What a tragedy. Anyone who has a child get out like that and drown is going to wonder whether or not they’re at fault,

I’ve only learned what childproofing stuff I’ve needed when a child of mine surprised me by doing something I didn’t expect. One sleepwalks, and I do live near water, so I do have doors to the outside secured, but only so she doesn’t sleepwalk outside. If she hadn’t gotten out once, I don’t think it would have occurred to me.

I think it’s wrong to assume everyone needs the child proofing your children need, just as it’s wrong to assume no one needs child proofing your children don’t need. I do think people should wait to see if they need any particular child proofing items instead of just assuming they need everything. A lot of child proofing stuff is just a big marketing scheme. But, then, some I’ve found useful. My two children are very, very different. The older one is fairly cautious, and was highly verbal at a very young age, so she didn’t do crazy things and I could talk to her about what she should and shouldn’t do when she was young. The little one is fearless, very physical, and wasn’t verbal for quite a while longer than the other one. I couldn’t explain stuff to her because she didn’t have the command of language the other one had. And she was climbing, jumping, escaping, running, etc., all the time. The house needed more child proofing with her.

The key is to know your kids and do the best you can for those specific kids in whatever way works for them. But even if you childproof or teach them, you can have accidents. You can’t possibly predict every potential dangererous situation that could happen – there are too many – so any of our children could die in some unexpected accident. It’s hard to face the truth of that potential, and we can try to fool ourselves by thinking we’ve taught our children too well for it to happen to them, or that we’ve childproofed to well for it to happen to them, but the fact is it can happen to any child.

I hate posting this in the open, but there is no way to PM you all. Dolly is a troll plain an simple. If we ignore her she will become even more outrageous and then fade away. If we continue to engage her and her paranoid ways she will keep being annoying. Most boards would have banned her by now.

I am not a troll, but you do have one thing right Kherbert, if people stop arguing with me and insulting there will be no reason for me to respond back to defend myself.

Dolly, childproofing isn’t perfect. Kids get around it. My two year old climbs over baby gates. If I relied on baby gates to keep her in, it wouldn’t be enough. These days I only use them is I want to slow her down or make her rethink climbing the stairs. As you say, a break. But they don’t keep her completely safe and I know it. She’s a wanderer and I know it.

socalledauthor: Get air conditioning! That is the most logical and probably something that would benefit everyone. Another option is if you have young kids to install window guards or buy a child pen or child gates that will confine the child safely away from the open doors and windows. I think you figured you would stump me on that one, but you didn’t. http://www.ecrater.com/p/8148799/child-proof-your-home-w-guardian

I’ve had people look down on me because I don’t drive a $40,000 tank, but rather a 14 year old 2 door convertible Geo Tracker with (gasp) no AC and no power windows, power locks or anything else. Yes, I (gasp!) ride around, with my kids, with the top half down. Have since they were little. Sometimes, I even take the top completely off.

So, am I a bad mom? I mean, if we get in a car accident, we’re probably all toast, even with car seats, seat belts, and a roll bar. But you know, I could either get the kids home (international adoption – free kids, $20K each for shipping and handling) or I could buy the Stupidly large Utility Vehicle. Which would be better for my kids?

We could either get a newer home with central air in a town 90 minutes from work with a crappy school district, or we could get an older house with no central air and lead paint to keep covereed up in a town with a great school system and an easy 25 minute commuter rail ride to work. Which is better for my kids? Do I sacrifice their education and family togetherness or do I sacrifice central air? Not sure what world some folks live in, but the one I’m in has some real, and not particularly easy choices.

It really is that simple, isn’t it, Dolly? Just spend money! Sure, EVERYONE has an extra 4k to spend on central air (when opening the windows really does work just fine.) And yes, we got quotes on central air because we were kind of interested in it. But instead, we had to replace the roof, tear up the downstairs and are still saving money for a radon-abatement system (which is another 2-3k, and you cannot install central air without it.) Yeah, we all have an extra 6-7k ready for LUXURY items.

But, I guess I’m just a bad mother, for not finding away to spend gobs of money on the illusion of safety. Since you have extra money, Dolly, I’d love a donation towards making my child safer.

Our house is an open floor plan. There is no place to put gates. And honestly, I can’t see how a gate would even work in an open door or doorwall (and I tried– either our gates are defective, or they just don’t stay put well in doorways.)

We have a saying in our house. Usually applies to corporate-style think, but individuals can exemplify it as well. “What’s the solution to World Hunger? Just feed the people. It’s so simple, it’s amazing no one else thought of it!” Dolly, you strike me as this sort of person. The solution is really just that simple. You KNOW the best solution for EVERYONE’s situation… except, you don’t.

And, Dolly, you clearly live a life of luxury that I, and many other hard-working, lower-income people, sort of envy (aside from the part where the haves always see the solution as “just” spend money, “just” get a better job, etc.) I would love to have the money to solve every less-than-perfect thing in my life.

(For the record, I have a Master’s Degree, my husband a Bachelor’s. We both work middle-income jobs, but alternate shifts to save money on child care. The only debt we have is our mortgage as we either buy cash or do without.)

Sera, how long are children left alone in a doctor’s office? Probably not at all. Just like they are not supposed to be alone (except bathroom) in a daycare or school. Which someone had posted about a kid with an electrical socket at what sounded like a daycare or school.

But, when I go in with my 3 kids, and I am trying to talk to the doctor, I try to pay more attention to the doctor than I do to what the kids are doing (who are SUPPOSED to be sitting and reading, playing on a Leapster or coloring.) And the doctor is paying attention to me. Even with one of my kids as a toddler, it still meant that I had a kid picking up stuff and moving stuff, and getting in drawers and such. And before anyone says he needs rules, I have rules, but he is special needs and while the other two do just fine, he needs a bit extra.

Duh, socalledauthor, get air conditioning! Aren’t you happy that you have Dolly in your cyber-life to give you that wonderful bit of information. I’m sure you’ve been sitting at home and thinking “Wow, it really is hot. I wish someone would invent a device that could pump cool air into our house so that we are not so damn hot all summer.” Well, now you know that someone has.

Can’t afford air conditioning? I guess you have to put the kids up for adoption because someone who can’t afford air conditioning should not be allowed to raise children in such an unsafe and hot environment. My daughter has been asking for a sibling but I don’t really want to do babyhood again. Do you have a child between 3-6 or so that needs to go to a cooler house? I have air conditioning.

Coming late to the party…what an odd conversation. Much of it I skipped. Maybe if everybody quit jumping on Dolly, and Dolly quit defending herself, this would seem like a useful discussion.

As it is — as usual, there’s just not enough information. I can’t buy the argument that in other countries 4 year olds look after toddlers. That’s true, but it’s not because it’s a good thing, it’s because there’s no other choice. Was she negligent or not? NO IDEA. I have to assume the police had some reason to suspect she might be (apart from being black — I’m learning that racism is alive and well in the US in ways I’m sheltered from here). It amazes me how many of us seem to just know that this was an accident based on what the media has reported. Because North American media are renowned for presenting the whole story, indeed.

Ok — AC or no AC, do you people not have screen doors in the US? “I can’t keep track of the kids because it’s hot outside” is just ridiculous. Free range or not.

Okay FrancesfromCanada, let me tell you–kids will roam, and SHOULD roam, within reason, and I think how other people parent with a more laid-back and less regulatory and “thinking like lawyers” manner is revealing–not for its supposed desperation due to alleged lack of choice, but for how well it works despite the criticisms, and how maybe we could learn from them.

Maybe people don’t have screen doors, and your point is? I don’t have screen doors, does that make me a horrible parent? My kids are sleeping in the same room vs their own room because the cooler in our room broke and we took one of their rooms so we won’t burn up while we deal with replacing the cooler in our room. Should our kids be adopted by better parents who would never have to do such a thing?

Do you want to be the one to erect said screen door to my premises besides tracking down the right size & purchasing it, or replacing the air conditioner in our room which broke? Do you wish to elect to be financially responsible for my kids, for disciplining them, for feeding them, for loving them emotionally?

If not, then your opinion on my parenting, based on that I let them free-range and don’t (among other things) have a screen door–is IRRELEVANT to me, and not your concern.

LRH

Screen doors are really not going to keep a determined child inside. Push on a screen really hard and see if it stays in the frame… didn’t when my friends son (just a few months older than mine) leaned on it to see better outside. So, if I have just screen doors and my child gets out through them, people like Dolly will still blame me for not having central air and a bunch of alarms on it… which is the issue here. When is “enough” precaution enough and when is it “blameworthy.” No (well, few) parents want harm to come to their child, and many of us, including free-rangers, balance the need for a child to grow in skill and independence with the need to protect them and the realistic chances of something happening and the need for parents to take care of running the household. I’d say it’s enough to periodically check on the child while keeping an ear on them, while also being aware of possible leaps in skills (such as opening doors or climbing, etc.)

I have screen doors, I think they’re sufficient to at least slow the baby, but like a baby gate, I know it’s only a temporary measure as a determined or curious child will circumvent any type of child-proofing. I’m not going to cage my child like a misbehaving dog, restricting his ability to explore or his ability to visit me while we both work. That’s NOT free range, to lock a child in a small space for fear of the unthinkable. This decision is influenced by the fact that, unlike some self-righteous parents– I don’t have handfuls of money to spend on a luxury like central air (or $500 strollers or $300 car seats that aren’t rated any safer by independent testing than the $150 models or other such things.)

I also don’t think this woman should be found guilty of negligence because the child drowned. (If she left him alone for an hour, that’s another story.)

Latches and alarms and baby-gates are all wonderful things, but nothing is fool-proof. Heck, when my husband was a toddler, his parents locked him in his room for a time-out. They came back to find that he’d taken two of the three hinges off the door and was trying to figure out how to get up to the top one!

“Ok — AC or no AC, do you people not have screen doors in the US? “I can’t keep track of the kids because it’s hot outside”

The argument was not “I can’t keep track of my kids because it’s hot outside.” The argument was “my house is not suited to being hermetically sealed up like a minimum-security correctional facility, even if I wanted to do that. I keep track of my kids using common sense and training.”

“Nor is an injury-free kid a determination of how great a parent you are.”

Bingo. My point exactly. By no means was I saying that it’s not good to keep your kids safe from serious injury or death, or that doing so is not better than not doing so. But “my kids haven’t been hurt yet” isn’t qualification for your advice being sound, as Dolly was holding it out to be. It’s not a BAD thing, but it’s not really a credential.

And FWIW, my five kids, ages 10-20, have been to the ER or urgent care center for an injury a total of two times — once for a 2nd degree hot soup burn, once for a bead up the nose. 😉 And I wish I’d been MORE free range! I consider my track record a good credential on how to keep kids safe, but NOT necessarily on how to raise them as well as I might have.

Keisha– while I think your parents did fine, there are quite a few parents today that DON’T let their children ride their bikes alone even into high school. (I have some students who live in town, but they’re not allowed to ride or walk to school because our middle- to upper-class suburban town is apparently too dangerous. Our biggest crimes are theft [from unlocked places] and drug use, usually by young people who’s parents think that they got away from that by leaving Detroit.)

Remember, the best way to prevent anything bad from happening is to make sure you guard against everything. Or so the theory goes. Wanna bet which of my kids are the most helpless, even to the point they don’t even know how to ASK for help?

@ Robin – But it’s clear. Every parent is supposed to live in a house with more security features than a maximum security prison just in case.

“there are quite a few parents today that DON’T let their children ride their bikes alone even into high school.”

This is really annoying me about school. My kid just started kindergarten and the school is in the dead center of a residential neighborhood. Many of the kids have to walk no more than a couple blocks. Kids from one side only have to navigate residential streets. The others have a busier street to cross but there’s a crossing guard. I have yet to see a single kid get to school on his own. Many walk or ride bikes and scooters. There is even a walk/ride to school day every month. They all just have parents who walk or ride with them. I’m not even sure that walking to (well more home from) school by yourself is allowed since I have to sign my child out every day.

And the crossing guard thing is subsequently annoying. If no kid walks or rides a bike to school without an adult, why exactly are my tax dollars paying for crossing guards? We’re cutting parapros and teachers, but we’re paying to employ a crossing guard for ADULTS.

@Donna, I know you have a demanding job; how are you able to sign your child out of school every day at dismissal time? How can they seriously expect parents to be able to do this? Do they hold her at school until you arrive?

I’m not trying to be confrontational; I just marvel at how things have changed in one generation. My kids (24 and 19 now) took the bus when we lived in our first home, then biked or walked when we moved closer. They left school when the bell rang, without being monitored, and I knew they were home when they walked in the door. I wasn’t required to sign them out, meet them, walk them, bike them, or even meet the bus at the stop that was two blocks from home. I work nights so had the luxury of being home after school, but no WAY would I have been happy to drag myself to school every day to sign them out.

Good Golly Miss Dolly! Does it ever end?

(Note to Lenore: If you feel compelled to contact me & tell me you had to disprove this comment because of its tone, I understand & please accept my apology in advance. If this post has the effect of “you’re bringing yourself down to their level & you’re better than that,” again, please accept my apology.)

I try & not judge other person’s parenting, or at least offer the advice in a way that isn’t hateful or mean-spirited, and is instead respectful. However, you seem unable to do likewise, and so let’s really tell it like it is, shall we?

Let me tell YOU what I think of YOUR parenting, based on your last post.

Frankly, if you parent the way you say you do, you are insulting yourselves & your husband, and raising your children to be spoiled-rotten brats. To be blunt, you’re a sorry excuse of a role model if this is what your’e doing. You & your husband don’t get any Christmas gifts while the children get toys? You take no vacations together to bond as husband & wife without the distractions of kids on occasion? What in the hell kind of parenting is THAT? You are the head of the house, and you let your kids see the two of you get nothing while they get everything? That’s called SPOILING, sweetie. You exist as nothing more than unpaid slaves to serve your every child’s whim–not NEEDS, but WHIM. You’re treating your husband as nothing more than a sperm donor who fertilized your eggs & now exists to serve the whims of every one of your two children’s nagging and pleading for everything they think they’re entitled to, while he is treated like a second-class citizen.

The way I was raised–which wasn’t perfect, mind you–the ADULTS got the best gifts. It was called SENIORITY. They were the ones busting their ass mopping the floors and cooking the food we gobbled up like hogs in a trough. They were the ones toiling in the heat working to pay for the food and the electricity and the rent and on & on. Why in the HELL should we, the kids, get all of the goodies when THEY are the ones busting their ass on our behalf?

Every year at christmas, yes we grandchildren received gifts at our granddaddy’s house, but the kids (his grown children) got better gifts, and he, the grand-dad, got the best gift of ALL. We all understood that this was because he was granddaddy, the one who had raised 8 kids to adult-hood & was opening up his home to 20-odd grand-children every Sunday, providing us with free soda pop & a free-range yard to explore, and a place that all of us could meet as one and spend time together. He was doing this at a time when he was now a single bachelor who could’ve easily viewed all of us as nuisances to keep away while he enjoyed his solitude, and was instead the most giving person of every single person that ever set foot in that house. Why in the HELL should he get NOTHING for Christmas while we get EVERY freaking thing?

That was called teaching us children some RESPECT, to learn that you get to watch what you want on television when either your parents are NICE ENOUGH to LET you pick, or when you save up your allowance and buy your OWN damned television. Contrast that the kids I see today, barking at their paretns with a disrespectful tone DEMANDING what they think they’re ENTITLED to, and idiots like you are more than happy to give them all they want while treating your life-long partner and yourself like shit by comparision. That isn’t parenting, that’s SPOILING a child damn rotten, and you can take that sort of parenting & shove it where the sun doesn’t shine.

Now–how does THAT feel to have been so judged?

The time for restraint where it regards you is OVER, sweetie pie.

LRH

Sorry that comment should have been to Beth, not Robin, since she asked.

Honest to God, the car seat came with an expiration date! I don’t know if it blows up or disintegrates on that date…or what!

Plastic, despite lasting forever, disintegrates fairly quickly and loses structural integrity.

If you use an expired carseat, you’re running the risk that instead of restraining your child in an accident, it may simply break, leaving your child totally unprotected.

Obviously it’s not as specific as “If you use it after this date, it blows up”, but neither is the expiration date on milk. When the expiration date comes around, if you haven’t already switched to a new car seat, you should start looking around. Because it really is pointless to have your kid in a useless carseat.

With that said, I would never ever get a crib or playpen from a garage sale. Bedbugs aren’t a myth, and they aren’t a rare risk either. Just this past month, two families on my block had to throw out their mattresses and carpets, and although I didn’t ask, I’m pretty sure that’s the reason why. And once you have bedbugs they are a major hassle to get rid of.

So you know, you can apologize for the environmental crack, but I don’t see that happening.

Nobody’s going to apologize because carbon offsets are, at best, not going to work for everybody – which is pretty much what you suggested.

“carbon offsets are, at best, not going to work for everybody”

And at worst, a joke. The fact that your mother chooses not to consume more than she does, does not create some kind of “offset” for you to consume, it simply means that her consumption is X instead of X + Y. It’s roughly the equivalent of saying that not stealing the other kid’s lunch money is actually doing the whole class a favor and making them all richer. The whole theory behind offsets is horribly flawed from an economic (meaning not just money, but the counting of how resources are used and distributed) perspective.

Being free-range is about giving children the room to grow. For some parents, but not me, this may include bars on windows, alarms on doors, and central air. For me, this philosophy is about taking small risks in exchange for the development and growth of the child.

And the question is always– what is a reasonable safety measure? Too many judges think that alarms and locked doors and otherwise a prison environment IS necessary, and are ruling against parents, like myself, who ask not to be treated as such (or that I be forced to treat my child like a prisoner.) THAT’S the part that worries me most– being found guilty of the “Crime” of not being as paranoid or overprotective as another parent, for not having alarms, gates, etc in my home.

But there are always parents, like Dolly, who have ALL the solutions for everyone, even people they’ve never met and know little about. Instead of judging other people for choices they’ve made, perhaps you could try some compassoin and tolerance of diversity. I would never presume to tell you how to raise your children, but you think it necesary to tell others how they should raise (and childproof) theirs. Why? What do you gain from this? Are you really helping anyone by passing judgement and making broad claims on the “only” acceptable child rearing? Are you not able to understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat– and that yours may not be as perfect as you think?

Parenting has everything to do with the parental philosophy of the parents. While you may judge parents for being more free-range than you, you don’t seem to understand how unhappy a parent would be defying their natural inclinations (ie, what that parent thinks is the best way for THEM to raise THEIR kids) and how that unhappiness would affect the child and the home in general. I would be unable to live in a prison environment with bars on the window– this would make me crabby and I would not be much fun for my son to be around. To me, parental happiness and comfort is crucial in the happiness and welfare of the children. The most anxious kids tend to come from the most anxious parents.

Ok, irony clearly doesn’t read on this site. I will withdraw my screen door crack, which was meant to point up the ridiculousness of the AC-as-a-measure-of-parenting skirmish…after I point out that even if said door doesn’t stop a determined toddler (though the one on the cottage my grandfather built, which I’m pretty sure he rescued from a dump lo these many moons ago, sure stopped us…and it’s held together with twist-ties), they SLAM. Excellent low-tech warning system, used by many generations of frugal free-range moms up here in mosquito country, where hardly anybody has AC but everybody has screens. Including people in less expensive housing, which here tends to be older and come equipped with such practical solutions as screen doors and clotheslines.

BTW you can block many windows from opening further than you want them to with a piece of dowel, or a stick for that matter. No bars necessary. No money either.

I will stand by my premise that despite the need to keep our houses warm or cold or ventilated or whatever, if our kids are young enough that we have to worry when they wander away, we should still be able to keep track of them. Which is not a comment in any way shape or form on anybody’s parenting style or skills or qualifications (especially not yours, LRH, no way would I go there). Nor does it imply “hermetically sealing” your house, or imprisoning your kids.

We are talking about toddlers, aren’t we? Is it really ok for them to “roam” without a parent at least knowing where they are?

Is that directed at me BMS? Most of your previous post seams to be directed at my post about my own personal experience, but none of you post actually applies to anything I said.

I guess if I should have made it clear my post was directed towards Dollys unsafe and possibly illegal suggestion to low income familys on child proofing, I just assumed anyone reading this far into the thread would have realized that was what it was about.

I’m getting used to everything I type being taken out of context, I am trying to work on it, I never have been good with words. I do still feel I have something to contribute here so I will not stop posting.

No, it’s not directed at you personally, although I have heard the same argument from a zillion people, in real life and on line.

For me, it just feeds into the whole mentality of ‘There is one right way to raise a child, and that way is the most expensive, and if you’re not doing it that way you don’t deserve to be a parent.’ Over and over again I’ve had to challenge people’s perceptions of what you can and can’t get away with in terms of raising kids (which is a lot of what this blog is about). There are parents who go to my kids’ school, who are 100% convinced that you can never buy anything used for an infant, that used clothes and shoes are somehow harmful to kids, that no responsible parent would ever let their kid ride in a convertible, that taking the communter rail twenty minutes and then riding the subway is too dangerous and impossible to do with children, etc. And (per the original post) if the attitude is now one of “Any mishap or accident could have been prevented, so if it didn’t it is obviously the fault of the parent” coupled with the attitude of some that “If you spend enough money on safety gear and home alterations then your child will never get injured, thus if your child gets injured it is your fault and thus you don’t deserve to be a parent”, I just can’t keep silent. A lot of the dangers supposedly facing kids today are really dangers to the insurance companies’ bottom line.

Much of it just depends on where you live.

When I lived in southern California, I never met a single person who would dream of putting their children in anything used – clothes, baby gear, etc. While the cribs and other big furniture items may get reused for subsequent kids, many never even used hand-me-downs from their own older children. Each child got all his own brand new clothes, toys, strollers, etc.

Where I live now, in a more earthy location, used is perfectly acceptable. We have several kid’s consignment stores. There are two large kid’s consignment sales twice a year. They sell car seats, playpens, big toys, little toys, shoes, tons of clothes. I can usually make over $150 selling the clothes and toys my kid has outgrown – more if I have large items. And you can always check out the thrift stores, although that is hit-or-miss depending on what has been turned in. My child wore almost no new clothes as an infant and toddler. (I find decent used clothes more difficult now. The selection sucks because kids tend to wear clothes for longer at 5 than they did at 2 so the clothes look worn).

I suppose whether or not using handmedowns is acceptable depends on who you associate with too. I’m in southern California, and unlike Donna’s experience, my sisters, my friends and I all do handmedowns, lots of them. I had to buy school clothes for the first time ever this year due to a need for school uniforms, which none of the cousins or friends have had to do.

My crib is a drop side, and now that my youngest has outgrown it I’m trying to decide whether to order the fix for it so I can sell it, since drop side cribs were all recalled and you can’t legally sell them unrepaired.

Honestly, I don’t get the reluctance to use handmedowns that some people have, especially for baby clothes. Babies don’t care what they wear, where they sleep, or if they have a new or old toy. So much the better for the budget to go used as much as possible.

I’m totally with Stephanie. I don’t get the reluctance for second-hand items for kids anyway. As Stephanie said, babies don’t care–and once they get the age to where they DO, they tend to have inflated expectations like wanting the latest designer label to impress their school friends. Besides, why should it not be okay for my kids to wear garage sale clothes etc when my wife & I wear them ourselves?

Garage sale doesn’t HAVE to meet tattered & “ghetto,” and what’s the big idea of thinking my kids’ needs are more important than mine? Where is that written? Either all people are created equal & all of our needs are equally important, or we’re categorizing some as more/less important than others, and it won’t limit itself just to kids vs adults. Old people are less important because they’re going to die in 5-10 years anyway, a father who has kids is more important since kids depend on him, the penalties for murdering a doctor should be more than the penalties for murdering a garage mechanic–to that end, I actually disagree with the penalty for killing a cop being more than the penalty for “other” people. I’m not comfortable with the idea of playing God that way with categorizing the importance of different humans & how important their life is.

LRH

to weigh in on the used baby and kids items: I actually ran an consignment sale. Basically because of the lead paint scare a couple years ago, now you are required to make sure the used item is not recalled before selling it. At our sale, we tried to keep an eye out for things that were recalled that we knew about. I tried to go ahead and get them to stop selling drop side cribs even the not yet recalled one because I knew it was a matter of time before they recalled all of them and I didn’t think we needed the liability.

There are some things I would not buy used and many things I would. Cribs are fine as long as they are newish and not drop sides. The problem with drop side cribs is over time the hardware gets worn down and then it breaks and kids get trapped and strangled in them. So I would personally avoid those. It sucks because drop side cribs are way easier on your back.

I would not buy a used car seat because you have no way of really knowing if it was in a wreck or not. We were not allowed to sell car seats over three years old. We also had them sign an affidavit saying the car seat was accident free and the purchasers also had to sign a wavier saying they don’t hold us liable.

Toys are fine to buy used and most of my kids toys were used. They were in great condition and I made sure they were not recalled. Then I turn around and sell it again when they outgrow them. Sometimes I made a profit off of owning a toy or at least broke even. Equipment like high chairs, exersaucers, etc are fine to buy used as well just again, check the recall list.

I actually wish I had known how awesome consignment sales were because at first we bought a lot of the baby gear brand new and we could have saved money. I did sell everything and got some of the money back. I found selling clothes to be more hassle than it is worth because it takes forever to tag them and I never made too much off of them.

I do however buy used clothing if it is really cheap for playclothes or if there are nicer name brand clothing in good condition and for a good price, I will buy it.

Nothing wrong with consignment sales. They are a great thing if done properly.

The death of a child is tragic. The death of ANY life is tragic. Unfortunately bad things happen to good people. What upsets me the most about this story, (and so many others like it) is that we are so quick to judge and deem this woman as negligent when there are far worse parents and guardians out there. I am sickened when I hear stories on GMA or the Today show about moms who are injecting their 5yr old daughters with Botox, forcing them to strut around as if they are in their 20’s, so they can win pageants. I am infuriated when I see magazine covers and print ads depicting 10yr old girls in “lingerie for children”. How absurd these prosecutors and police are to think this woman caused the death of her nephew! We need to start shifting the focus where it should be and not persecuting parents/guardians/caregivers for tragic ACCIDENTS.