Free-Range Kid, 11, Attends a Wake…on His Own

I hope that (in addition for some conversation about rule-breaking) this child earned the pride and respect of his parents.

Off topic, but I want to thank you for this blog as it has helped keep my sane and provides a very nice contrast to my mother in law’s paranoia. I mentioned to her today that daddy did school drop off and she asked if he walked 7yo DS into the school. I told her no that Daddy went through the drop off line like I do daily. She went off on a rampage about how someone could snatch him. Like that is going to happen. They get out of the vehicle next to a crossing guard, they walk 30 foot down a sidewalk under the watchful eyes of a teacher who is guarding the door. Personally I would like to drop them off a few blocks away and I think in the spring we might start doing that.

I just love this story. I live in Worcester, MA and the whole city is just so proud of this boy. The fire department was so touched that they let him walk in the procession and ride in a fire engine. I only hope I raise my boy to be this thoughtful.

I strongly believe that learning when and how to disobey rules is an important part of growing up. (http://tinygrainofrice.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/on-freethinking-choice-religion-and-parenting/) While breaking rules does have consequences, I hope his parents take into account the reason why he broke the rules, and the responsible and respectful way in which he did so. I’m proud of this kid; I can only hope that, by age 11, my own child will be aware enough to find something important that he/she considers worth (safely) breaking my rules for!

I have a hard time being pleased with a kid for disobeying his father’s explicit orders. Maybe that’s just because I have one kid who has a “good reason” (in her mind) to disobey just about anything you tell her. Oh, I didn’t think you wanted me to fold *these* clothes because… I thought it would be ok to put the good knives in the dishwasher because… I had to get on the computer even though I’m grounded because… Because of that constant battle, my first instinct is that kids should be expected to obey their parents, even if they think they have a good reason not to.

Of course, the other side of that coin is that the rules need to be reasonable. If something is up to the kid’s judgement, it doesn’t need to be a rule. And, of course, rules are up for discussion (as long as it’s not AFTER the disobedience.) IMHO, forbidding an 11yo to leave the house alone does not fall within the parameters of “reasonable.” At least, not in most cases.

I live in Worcester and read about this story in our local news, and I immediately thought of free-range kids. I’m so impressed by this young man. He’s a small ray of sunshine during the dark days since Jon Davies passed. Thank you for sharing this story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/annmarie-kellyharbaugh/up-side-of-the-down-slide_b_1098640.html?ref=parents

lenore, I thought this was you for a min….

I’m guessing the shared parent was the mother. If tha father made the rukes like that….

My free-range daughter delivered her first eulogy at the ripe old age of five. This was entirely her idea, and she formulated and executed it perfectly without guidance or input from any adult, including me.

At the time, there was a disagreement between myself and her biological father who, on the advice of a so-called child psychologist, insisted that my daughter not be allowed to participate in the death and subsequent memorialization of a woman who was like a second mother to her (the woman was the closest possible family friend, and she died a gruesome death caused by breast cancer). It would be “too traumatic” for a child of such a young age to be exposed to all that, they both declared.

My daughter had other ideas, and I let her run with them. It was extremely important for her emotional and spiritual development that she be allowed to participate in this event. Death is a natural part of life and to be denied the opportunity to honor and grieve is not natural. This is true regardless of age.

“Blowing a big raspberry on this helicopter parenting nonsense” is something I will try to use in a sentence today.

I don’t see why he could not have just asked his parents if he could go and then they would let him go? Why is this news?

I remember when my babysitter died when I was six. By the age of six, this was not even close to the first funeral I had attended and I knew how to behave. I had been to other church funerals because my mother was in the choir and I would usually sit with another church member or even in the church parlor and keep my own company until the service was over.

When my babysitter died it was different. I was very sad, but I knew what a funeral was for and I was not afraid. For a long time, my mother would tell me how I introduced her to the lady who lived across the street from my babysitter – I saw her practically every day, but she had never met my mother. And with my best company manners, the way I had been taught by my mother, grandmother and babysitter.

“Mama, this is Mrs. Anderson, she lives across the street from Mrs. Hawkins. Mrs. Anderson, this is my mother Mrs. Smith.”

They were both stunned a little but they smiled and praised me for being “a little lady”. I was only doing what I had been taught and I knew my babysitter would have been proud of me.

I was not particularly precocious – we just expect far too little of our kids these days. As for a child not being able to attend a wake or funeral alone at age 11, it’s simply absurd.

And that may be fine for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN, Dolly. I, on the other hand, believe that PARENTS should decide what their children are capable of and not the person paying for the funeral. A funeral isn’t a wedding where guest lists are made and invitations are sent out. Unless you are a celebrity, funerals are generally open to anyone who wants to pay respects to the deceased or the family – child or adult; friend, family or stranger. Children who cause a ruckus should not be there. Children who act respectful and want to attend should be welcome. And who cares about infants if they remain quiet? They don’t even understand what’s going on.

As for funerals, I would never put an age restriction on them. Parents of course should be responsible for much of their children’s behavior, but everyone, kids included, grieve in their own way and you can’t always predict what a kid will do.

Wow, Dolly. Just wow.

Sorry, Dolly, but I’m with Donna. While you’re right it’s best to check with the one in charge of the funeral, in itself there is nothing wrong with kids attending a funeral. And don’t even try to tell me it causes some multiple personality disorder.

I don’t even think it’s always necessary to check with the person on charge of the funeral. The funeral isn’t about that person. It’s about paying respects to the deceased person. ANYONE who wants to pay respects to the deceased should be welcome. I may not like my some of mother’s friends, but I certainly have no business telling them that they cannot attend her funeral, regardless of their age or my views of their jerkness.

I would check with the person throwing a funeral if I need to bring an infant or small child with no connection to the deceased. I do not feel it necessary to check with the family to bring a child who has a connection with the deceased and wants to pay his/her respects.

I doubt a 3 year old ever wants to attend a funeral or pay their respects. For one thing 3 year olds only want to go anywhere if there is going to be toys or a playground there. Secondly, 3 year olds don’t know that pay your respects means.

Be honest and tell me what young child has ever asked to attend a funeral? None that I know and I know A LOT of kids.

This does not have to be a big debate. I was just throwing in against what Jessica said that I don’t agree funerals are always a good thing for kids especially small kids. I stand by that.

Donna: If you want to allow your mother’s friends you didn’t like to pay their respects, that is your choice. You could also not allow them if you are the one planning and paying for said funeral. That is just the facts of it. It is still essentially a private event since someone has to pay for it. There are very good reasons to not allow someone at a funeral. If my husband died tomorrow his family would not be invited to the memorial service I held. I hate his family. They have never done anything for me but hurt me. The last thing I would need is more hurt when I am already grieving my husband. So if they want to pay their respects they would need to host their own memorial service because they are not attending mine.

And, once again, Dolly has hijacked the comments and it’s become all about her trauma/drama.

As for the boy in the article, I think there are a lot of things going on there with age, rules, grieving, and loss which his Dad might want to talk about with his son. But overall – no harm, no foul from my pov.

Honestly, I would not even tell my inlaws if he died tomorrow. I don’t speak to them and they don’t speak to me and just because my husband died is not going to change that fact. If they wanted to be told and included in such things they probably should have been nicer to me.

Dolly, I do know a small child who asked to attend a funeral. My cousin’s 5-year-old daughter asked to attend her great-grandmother’s funeral (my grandmother). Another great-grandmother of hers had died a few months earlier and her parents didn’t take her to that thinking she was too little. She told them she was sad she never got to say good-bye and wanted to say good-bye this time. She behaved herself at the funeral home, at the mass, and later when the family went out for dinner to toast a great lady’s passing. She’s a teenager now and was not emotionally scarred for life for attending a funeral or seeing a dead body.

An 11yo that can’t ride/walk down the street to a funeral…that’s just so wrong.

As for the debate about funerals. In my family (on both my mom and dad’s sidea) and in my husband’s families it would be considered the height of rude to NOT bring the children. It’s expected that ALL family be there if they can. If there’s a legit reason why a kid couldn’t come (super emotional or something) they understand but otherwise kids are expected to be at the funeral to support their family. I went to my first around 8.

My oldest daughter’s first funeral was at 10 weeks old. My mom had died and there was no way I wasn’t bringing her only granddaughter to the funeral. She wasn’t the only kid there. She wasn’t even the only infant there. My cousin’s son was a week and a half older and cried through most of the memorial. It didn’t bother me at all. It was a reminder that in death there is also life. Of course, my mom’s sisters were sitting behind me cracking jokes the entire time (stuff that would have made my mom laugh). They had everyone laughing by the end.

The next funeral my kids went to was when my husband’s grandmother died. They were 2 1/2, 17 months and 4 months. We actually missed the church service (we were traveling across 2 states) but made it to the graveside in the middle of March. A month later my father in law died and my kids attended that funeral, too. They sat up front with the family and behaved perfectly through the entire thing. They weren’t upset about my husband crying or their gramma or any of the other adults. They understood something sad had happened and their family was sad. They tried to comfort us. They were a great comfort to everyone.

I refused to go to the wake, though. The whole thing brought back memories of my mom dying and it was just too hard. I decided to stay home for it and keep the kids with me. My sister in law went ballistic and insisted I come so that the kids could come (they needed me to keep an eye on them so they could visit with family and friends).

I can’t imagine not bringing my kids to a funeral of a family member or close friend and if I was ever told me kids weren’t welcome I’d just not go and I’d be offended if people didn’t bring their kids to one I was “hosting” simply because they were kids, especially if those kids were close to the person that died. And when I die I expect every kid in my life to be there.

bdh and Donna: Maybe you should seek professional help since you think anyone that does not think exactly like you or conform to your standards needs professional help.

Dolly, I couldn’t care less about your views. You do, however, insist on bringing up numerous dramas, damaging events, childhood grudges, hatred of relatives, etc in just about every thread. We’re not your therapists and really aren’t that interested in your life.

@Dolly
Funny you say that because all your other opinions on this topic is that what you want will stand. As in you don’t want kids at funerals you pay for and it doesn’t matter what the parents of the kids want. Interesting.

Then again, you’d probably have a heart attack at one of the funerals in my mom’s family. We had a memorial service for her when she died. Then after we all went to my aunt’s house and had the hugest, loudest PARTY the family had seen in years. We had a tent out back, a keg, mixed drinks, music and lots of laughing. And crying. We remembered the life she lived, not her death. It was a lot of fun and I can’t imagine not having all of my family around for it. I’m pretty sure the only ones dressed in the traditional black attire were my cousins and aunt on my dad’s side (which was tradition in their family). My mom’s family were all in their regular clothes and it wasn’t overly somber with people wailing and carrying on.

There was a lot of laughter and good memories. We started the tradition years ago. I remember when one of my mom’s older sisters died. All of her grandchildren (between the ages of infant to 6) were sitting on the floor in the front of the funeral home. They even got up and told stories about their gramma. It would have been an entirely different affair without all the kids there. That was 12 or so kids under 6 and all of them handled it just fine because death was never hidden from them and they weren’t taught it was something to avoid or be afraid of. It was just a part of life and they were able to share their grief with their parents and cousins. And then we went back to the same aunt’s house and had a huge party with lots of singing and laughing and some crying as we remembered her life.

But I guess I forget that most people treat funerals like something awful to be avoided and censored. I’m glad none of my family is really like that. Everyone is welcome to come no matter how old they are and black attire is not required. And there’s usually a pretty damn good party after.

Dolly I agree that making a 6 year old spend 6 hours at a viewing is going to be hard on a 6 year old. I wouldn’t do that to mine. But that’s different from taking a child to a funeral, which I consider to be entirely appropriate if the child had a relationship with the person.

Death of elderly people is a part of normal life. Death of a child or sudden accidental death is not normal or a part of the cycle of life. I would be more inclined to include children in a funeral for an elderly relative who lived their life and died at their time compared to say a 14 year old who died when they slipped and fell down the stairs breaking their neck. Or a 10 year old who committed suicide like that little girl did a couple weeks ago. Or a stillbirth baby.

Very good examples of funerals and body viewings that would horribly upset children and might not be such a good place to bring them. My kids are so close to my mother that if she died tomorrow, no way in hell would I ever let them see her body. That is just not right. They would have to deal with her death either way because she in not here anymore, but that is way different than watching their mother who they see as their strength falling into pieces in sobs while their beloved Mimi lies cold and unmoving in a casket. No way.

I have been to several funerals and while I dislike them, I don’t avoid them or sweep it under the rug. There are just some things kids don’t need to see or deal with. When someone is grieving the last thing they need is a crying baby or a toddler running up and down the aisles spilling OJ on everyone and dropping cracker crumbs. Well behaved kids might not be a problem. The above examples would and the problem is you never know how a young child is going to react in certain and especially new situations such as a funeral and that is why it is better to maybe not bring them. Like I said before, if they are too young to really get what is going on, then why have them there in the first place?

And that is fine for your family, Dolly. The outrage wasn’t over you making that choice for your child but insisting that you should make that choice for ALL children because you are paying for the funeral.

I have a very different stance. If my mother died tomorrow, my child would be at the funeral. She would be given the opportunity to say “good bye” and join in the ritual of mourning for her loved one. Personally, I think it’s wrong to have the loved one simply disappear and to be excluded from the formal mourning process based on age. You can disagree but your writing of the check should not over ride my beliefs as to what is best for my child.

Wow, this just shows how different cultures celebrate the end of a life. Wakes with sitting for 6 hours is something I have never experienced.

When my boss died of cancer, his funeral was the most rocking one I have ever been too. He was in a Do-wop band in the 50s, and the surviving members came and sang, with electric guitars. There was lots of gospel music. It was very much a celebration of a life well lived despite being cut short. There were lots of kids there – and toddlers and babies. They joined in with everyone else singing. It was the least sad funeral I have ever been to. Not all funerals are about crying.

Other funerals I have been to have been more traditional I suppose. When I was working at a daycare, a mother driving her daughter in the rain slid on the wet road into a pole. The mother ended up in a coma. Her 3 year old died. Some kids from the preschool did come with their parents. Mostly we were all sad that the mother did not have a chance to say goodby to her daughter because she was still in the hospital in a coma. No one remarked that kids were there. They were her classmates after all. They had every right to know what had happened and that she was not coming back.

I suspect that the young man who is the subject of the story did not feel that he had the closure that he needed after his brother died. As his brother was killed while in service, chances are the funeral was closed casket, and over a week or more from the actual time of death. While this one was probably also closed casket, I suspect that while he felt he was helping the family, it was probably also very helpful for him to get the closure that he probably needs, by honoring another hero, one like his brother.

@Dolly– I am speechless. I am without speech.

OK, I’ve regained my ability to communicate in order to tell you that when my father died my niece (age 7) asked to see the body (we are Jewish, there is no scheduled viewing) and touched his arm and said goodbye. My sister (her mother) was crying very emotionally. My niece felt that she had closure; she understood that her mom was grieving and sad and that is part of life. All of the grandchildren (ages 4 & up) were at the funeral and every one of them understood that death is the end of life, something to acknowledge and that sad feelings are ok for everyone, including adults.

In a respectful way, I suggest you get some help.

And Cheryl, the ‘do-wap’ funeral sounds wonderful! What a great clebration of a life! Cheers…

Kevin, I think what set people off is Dolly’s insistence that if she’s paying for the funeral, she gets to dictate who can come (is she going to post bouncers at a funeral?) She refuses to acknowledge that funerals and calling hours are public events regardless of who’s paying for them, provided they’re publicly announced. She doesn’t want it to be that way, so in her mind, it’s not.

I strongly disagree with her on the appropriateness of any and all children at any and all funerals, but I wouldn’t find that as objectionable if she didn’t take such an extreme attitude on her own rights to dictate what every one else does at someone else’s funeral. She seems to forget that when someone close to her dies, the funeral is not FOR HER but FOR THE DECEASED and *everyone who wants to pay respects to the deceased* provided they aren’t disturbing the peace or otherwise causing a problem larger than “I don’t like you and I don’t want to look at you because it’s all about me.”

Also, it gets annoying when someone starts explaining why a perfectly well behaved eight year old shouldn’t attend any funeral ever because a spoiled 3 year old with less than stellar parents spills orange juice and cracker crumbs at the funeral home. The point should at least be argued logically.

Sorry if that bugs you, but yes, I can plan a private funeral if I pay for it. End of story. I won’t let them print an obit till after the service is already over with. Only people who will know day and time is people we tell. If anyone else shows up we don’t want there they will be asked to leave. If they don’t leave, we will call the cops. Sorry if that bugs you, but it is what it is. Private property means you cannot come without permission or you are trespassing. That is what the obit is. It is like permission to attend by publishing it in the newspaper. If there is no obit, then there is no permission.

You do not have to be a celebrity to have a private funeral. It is not commonly done, but it is absolutely something you can do.

The funeral is not about you if you are not the one planning it. The immediate family are the ones who lost the most thus why they are the ones who plan it. They are the ones that get the say. If they don’t want you there, then you should not be there. If someone told me not to come to a funeral, I wouldn’t. I can pay respects to someone many ways besides attending a funeral. Such as donate to charity in their name.

Thank you Kevin. The voice of reason.

I am not narcissistic enough to think everyone has to think like me. I know they don’t. That is okay. I may think they are wrong, but its their life. I think the only ones that need counseling are the ones that think everyone must think exactly like they do or that person MUST be broken.

@backroadsem It would have never occurred to me in a million years to make a call to the “one in charge of the funeral” to see if it was OK for me, or anyone else, to come. I’m not even convinced I would know who exactly was paying for the funeral – the surviving spouse? one of the deceased’s children? All of his/her children splitting the bill? what if the deceased had a funeral trust and there’s really no one in charge or paying for it?

“Hineata: Do your children never have nightmares? I sure did when I was a kid. Just about every kid I know has nightmares. Seeing a dead child could probably cause some creepy nightmares.”

There are worse things in life than nightmares. One of them is growing up never being able to cope with death when it comes into your life. And they can be caused by lots of perfectly good things, so “it might cause nightmares” ought to come pretty far down on the list of why not to do something, if there are other good reasons to do it.

I’m not saying every child should go to every funeral of every person they know in every situation, or that nightmares aren’t an unpleasant thing that should never give a person pause to consider whether a decision is a good one. But “it might cause nightmares” isn’t the be-all and end-all of decision-making for your kids, when there’s a stark reality going on in your, and their, lives. Hineata described a generally good, and healthy situation, and to respond to that with “It might have caused nightmares!” is to really miss the point. It’s almost like talking about what could have happened if you’d turned your back on your kid for two seconds or let him go outside to play.

Donna: But that is the point….it is about what the deceased wanted. My mom does not want my inlaws to try to come to her funeral so they would not be allowed to come. It would be my job to keep them out. Sometimes it is the deceased who doesn’t want the excluded people there. I have my will made out and I actually made my wishes known about a private funeral and who is not allowed to be there. So if you are excluded you may never know if the deceased wanted it that way or the immediate family. Either way, respect their wishes.

Donna: I will take my chances with my future DILs. I plan on kissing their butts from moment one so it will probably work out. My inlaws did not practice such butt kissing and instead decided to backstab me and insult me at every chance. So you know, big difference. If I did to my DILS what they did to me, I freaking would expect and deserve to be excluded from not just a funeral but everything in their lives.

@justanotherjen: Those sound like the funerals on my dad’s side of the family. Everyone gets the sadness and grief out at the service, and then we all meet up at a relative’s house to share stories, laugh, drink, and of course, toast the deceased with a shot of Irish whiskey!

At 8, a child is old enough to know what’s going on, understand their friend died, and want to grieve. I think the question is, when are kids old enough to understand and BENEFIT from a funeral? If you keep a 2 year old from great aunt Lisa’s funeral, is it a bad thing, since they really won’t understand what’s going on and they will likely get bored and perhaps create disturbances? Is that sealing it away from them or just using common sense? If you have a very sensitive 6 year old, should you make them stay for hours at a funeral home simply because the family all wants to be together even though it is upsetting the child? It’s an individual choice and one that we should all respect each other that, as parents, we will try to make the right ones for our children. I grew up and was fortunate enough not to have anyone close to me die before I reached college age. So I never went to a funeral until then and yet I could deal with it fine. So the argument some are making that we must expose our children to death or else they won’t know how to handle it as adults seems a bit unfounded – at least in my situation. People are resilient and if they don’t learn to deal with death as kids, they’ll pick it up later. 😉

Cheryl…how true, “death exposes itself to a child.” The sad fact is that there is no real such thing as “natural” and “unnatural” times to die. Throughout human history, people of all ages have succumbed to freak diseases and random accidents and injuries. I don’t think there’s a point in keeping them from children. And as I pointed out in another thread, the thing about death is that it really is a mystery to everyone this side of the veil. No one knows for sure what happens (although many people have strong beliefs), other than the person goes away and never comes back, which is pretty much how you’d explain what’s happening to a little kid.

Kevin, there is a HUGE difference beween not exposing children to death because the situation doesn’t arise and excluding them from the mourning process due to age. I don’t think you need to hunt up funerals for dead strangers to attend with your children. An adult who was never exposed to death as a child because it simply never occurred to someone they knew well can learn to process death in a healthy way when finally faced with it. They are not going to have to overcome baggage surrounding death. I am more skeptical of the abilities of an adult who had several loved ones die during childhood but was excluded from the mourning process to be able to deal with death in a healthy way as an adult. They’ve already learned that death and grief is a scary thing that should be hidden.

“There are all sorts of thoughtful and thought-provoking films out there, some of which raise unsettling questions. Clearly parents need to pay attention to what’s developmentally appropriate, but should we really be sheltering our kids from movies (or books, for that matter) that might disturb them? “‘

Throwing books in there changes the question entirely, since once can learn all sorts of things from books without ever turning on a movie. My personal view is that I watch movies entirely for entertainment, and if I never see another movie again, I will be no intellectually or morally worse off — just like all the well-educated people who lived prior to about 1920. That’s not to say I never learn anything from them, but no, I don’t regard them as an indispensable growing experience for a child OR an adult. That doesn’t mean I think a child *should* be sheltered from all movies with anything disturbing, but that if they are, they haven’t lost anything — provided they experience that growth through other means.

@Dolly – Thanks for your question. I’ve found everyone’s ideas really interesting. Regarding nightmares, no – the kids have nightmares at times, but have never reported nightmares regarding bodies they’ve seen. The kind of wakes (we call them tangi usually) that I talked about above are fairly relaxed affairs, and you get to sit and chat to the person if you want to, or hop away and talk to someone else, and the occasions are usually fairly social. There are also, by-the-by, usually other kids around too. Not sure if wakes are like that. I see that you might have had a problem as a six-year-old if you were forced to sit and do nothing but stare at your grandfather for 6 hours straight.

Kevin, I think it’s wonderful that you went until you were college-age until anyone significant in your life died – I see your point about the fact that you were still fine. For a variety of reasons, including the size of our extended family and significant differences in health outcomes for different ethnic groups that they variously belong to – gosh, I still sound like a teacher, even during the holidays! – we seem some years to be surrounded by death! Just want to raise the kids to see it as a normal part of life. But no, if it wasn’t happening around them at times, I certainly wouldn’t hunt down dead people to show them, LOL!

BTW, my fifteen year old son read this over my shoulder, and wanted me to tell you all that he has indeed been severely traumatised by the things I’ve exposed him to, and that teen suicide and homicide went up following the televising of Sir Ed Hillary’s funeral (the mountaineer, aged in his 80’s when he did pass away ), but seeing he has now run off outside to play basketball and tease the heck out of his sisters, I can only assume he’s talking through the proverbial hole in his head :-). And we’re only in the first couple of weeks of holidays, sigh….

@Cheryl – I think I know what you mean, though my son was being facetious. I’ve read some of those studies too. It’s hard to know what to do, isn’t it? I’ve talked to the kids over the past few years about suicide (my own kids, not the ones I teach, as I teach real littlies). We have had some horrible rashes of suicides here at times, and some do seem to be copycats – but the funerals, as you say, don’t seem to be the cause of the copycatting. The tiny handful of funerals of ‘suicides’ I’ve been to have tended to emphasise the anger of those left behind, and the futility of the act. The talking in the community like you say seems, anecdotally, to be the problem.

I don’t think you’ll ever, sadly, completely eliminate suicide 🙁 . I wish we could……

I am going to add that after I made the point of getting a babysitter for my kids (my mom drove an hour to watch them and she wanted to attend the funeral but gave up on attending to watch the kids because we thought that was more important), I would have been pissed if someone else brought young kids to his funeral and then they acted the fool. I was trying to pray and reflect on my grandfather’s life and a kid acting the fool would have disturbed that. That is why I didn’t bring my own kids. I would have been just dealing with them the whole time and would not have been able to reflect on my grandfather’s life. I might as well stay home if I had to bring them. Sometimes it is about the parent thinking about what THEY need.

Just because they didn’t attend the funeral does not mean the death was not dealt with.I sat them down and tried to talk to them about it. As much as a 3 year old can understand. No one needs to see a dead body to know someone is gone. My faith is strong enough I know where they are, I know where their soul has gone. I don’t need a body to know that. I was grateful his casket was closed. I don’t like seeing people that way. I would rather remember them alive.

We went out to eat with the family afterwards and shared good memories of him. That was more important than any funeral.

My dad is the youngest of 13 kids and my mom is the middle of eight, so there have been plenty of funerals in my life. When I was a kid, I went to every single one. I didn’t misbehave, because my parents had taught me to sit still. Also, the majority of funeral homes tend to have lounge areas where you can escape for a bit and recharge. During calling hours, the kids would tend to migrate to the lounge to talk or goof around, so they’d be out of the earshot of the adults.
If my parents had ever left me at home during a funeral, they would have certainly felt judgment from my family. It was important that as many members of the family be at a funeral to show their respect for the deceased. Leaving a kid behind would have been seen as incredibly disrepectful, like that kid didn’t love the deceased family member or something.

Donna: As the immediate family, I do have a right to be pissed and upset if someone brings a kid to my grandfather’s funeral and let’s said kid act the fool. I absolutely would have said something to them along the lines of “Either control your child or leave.” If the kid is seen and not heard and not bothering anyone, I would not care. If it was fussing, running around, knocking stuff over, I would have been livid.

Funerals are no different than bringing a kid to an R rated movie or a fancy restaurant and letting them act up. You don’t have to be there. You can miss a funeral just like my mother missed my grandfather’s in order to watch the children (it was her ex FIL so while she knew him she was not immediate family and I was). The world won’t end if you don’t go. So regarding that I find it really rude to show up with kids and let them bother others. If they can behave, fine. If they bother others you better skedaddle right on out of there.

That is actually a pretty free range old school ideal that kids should behave or not be there period. That is how my grandparents did it with their kids. This idea of kids having to be everywhere and having to be indulged pisses me off.

“No one needs to see a dead body to know someone’s gone” – @Dolly, I agree that some people don’t need to. Myself, I always find that it helps in the whole process. It’s not a ‘need’ exactly, just helpful.It’s just upbringing, culture, ethnicity, whatever.

Out of interest, are you and yours just one ‘ethnic group’? I also have a strong faith, but because of the fact that I am bi-racial, and my kids at least tri- (I have suspicions about my husband, who claims to be a full-blooded ethnic Chinese but whose hair is curlier than mine, LOL!), except for what is written as absolute in the Bible, and surprisingly few things are, my kids navigate a world where everyone does things very differently from everyone else. They have learnt not to make many absolute statements, because such statements simply don’t often hold true. As a small example sort-of relevant to this topic, my mother would consider it an insult were we not to visit our relatives’ graves – my MIL (Buddhist) considers it actually dangerous to visit graves. The children simply do what is relevant to the occasion, and to whoever they’re with. Similarly my MIL has learnt not to offer them food she’s sacrificed to idols. With my Maori Nana’s last remaining sister, now well into her 90’s, built like a Sherman tank and having a similar personality, LOL, the kids just do whatever they’re darn well told!

The point of the above? Just that kids fit into the world around them – the world wasn’t made to fit them. And that very little is absolute…..

I’m curious as to why children shouldn’t see their parents cry or be overcome with grief. I don’t think kids are going to lose respect for their parents if they see them being emotional. On the contrary, I think it teaches kids that everyone has emotions and there are times in life when you just need to let things out. Seeing mom cry at her father’s funeral lets you know that it’s okay to cry when you’re sad. Seeing dad in the hospital after a heart attack lets you know that everyone is mortal and everyone is suspectible to health issues. That’s life. It’s a little scary sure, but when you’re part of a family, that’s the stuff everyone in the family has to deal with.

Very good point and idea Cheryl. If helps when you have lots of family who can take turns taking the kids outside to walk around and stuff, but not everyone has that (me included) so I don’t feel okay taking them to a long viewing that goes on for hours with nothing fun for them to do.

I am talking about small children here. 0 to 5 ish. If a 2 year old sees their parents hysterically sobbing, that might frighten them. They see their parents as their rock and their strength and to see their parents very upset, could disturb them. My kids at 4 get very upset if they see me the least bit upset. It is good to not always hide your emotions in front of your kids, but totally losing it in front of your kids is probably not a great idea. If you are not sure if you can reign in the hysterical sobbing in front of your kids at a funeral or cannot be sure no one else at the funeral might start hysterically sobbing, you might want to not bring them. That can even disturb adults sometimes, so you know it might disturb children.

I would lose it at some funerals and those would be ones my kids would definitely not attend. I have a hard time controlling the boo hooing sometimes.

For the record, hineata, we are all white with similar upbringings.

“If you are not sure if you can reign in the hysterical sobbing in front of your kids at a funeral or cannot be sure no one else at the funeral might start hysterically sobbing, you might want to not bring them. That can even disturb adults sometimes, so you know it might disturb children. ”

And again, it’s not a given that “being disturbed” is the worst thing that can ever happen to a child, let alone an adult. Your kids, your call, of course, but just understand that not everyone believes that “being disturbed” is the worst thing that can happen to a child, and that some “disturbance” might be a legitimate price to pay if you believe that having the kids there is overall positive.

In some cultures (probably most, if you did a count) it’s positively normal to be extremely demonstrative in grief, and no one believes it hurts the kids. So again, if that’s your concern for your kids, fine, but you’re not going to get very far arguing that no kid of a certain age should ever be at a funeral (not his own grandparents? Parents? Siblings?) because of YOUR feelings about what’s disturbing, how important it is to protect them from that, and so forth.

I have very early memories. When I was four my great-grandmother died. Recently-ish I was speaking with my grandmother, and she was surprised about just how much I could recall about my great-grandmother. I also stated that I was saddened by the fact I never got that opportunity to say goodbye (to me our death rites are very important, but most important of all is the opportunity to say good-bye). It was deemed, so I discovered, the funeral would be unsuitable for us due to our age. Perhaps we would have required a “sitter” (having an adult not in the immediate family to look after a child during a funeral, taking them out if needed etc is recommended in many books about death/funerals and children), perhaps not. We cannot ever know.

Maybe I am just weird, but I would rather “Say good bye” when the person is still alive rather than at a funeral. I know when I knew my grandfather was very close to death, I drove 2 hours at night alone to the hospice facility to say my goodbyes while he was still alive. He died a couple hours after I left. That was my goodbye. Not the funeral.

“Throwing books in there” doesn’t change the question at all. One could learn all sorts of things from films without ever opening a book; or, for that matter, from life, as people did before Gutenberg made literacy possible for most of us”

Not really. They learned from the people who had read books.

Anyway, my larger point is that I *personally* view movies strictly as a medium of pleasurable entertainment. I never watch a movie because someone tells me it will be uplifting or thought-provoking — that usually turns me off, because that’s just not the space they fill in my life. I in no way criticize those who view it differently; I’m just saying that I think it’s possible, and legitimate, to view movies that way. It is not because I want to shield myself, or any children, from all negative experiences; it’s just because I don’t think it important to get them from movies. It’s fine to do that; I just don’t think it’s necessary, and so I tend to avoid exposing my younger children to stuff in movies that I think will disturb them. I don’t find that parallel, though, to shielding them from *everything* in life that could be disturbing.

Hope that helps.

“Maybe I am just weird, but I would rather “Say good bye” when the person is still alive rather than at a funeral. ”

That is not weird, but it is just YOU. It is not everybody. You can’t judge other people by that standard, or expect them to conform to it,because it’s something that people can be different on without being right or wrong, better or worse.

Pentamom: I have to say I do think it is wrong to be one of those people that won’t go visit someone when they are sick and in the hospital and dying or someone who does not call or visit or have a thing to do with someone when they are alive, but once they are dead they are ALL about attending the funeral and putting on a big show. That kind of behavior is wrong and it makes me pissed off. My stepfather’s kids are a good example of that. For years they hardly ever called, did not visit at all, never sent birthday cards, etc. But I have a feeling they are going to show up when he dies and make a big production out of it. They did similarly when he had a bad accident and was in the hospital.

Completely agree Jinnellys. I think it has something to do with helping them with their guilt for not being there for them when they were alive. All the more reason while I won’t kiss their butt and let them show up at the funeral and act like they cared when they most certainly did not. My husband’s siblings have not called or spoken to him but like once a year. So the heck if I would let them show up and sit up front with family if my husband passed. His best friend sees him several times a week and has always been there for him. He deserves to sit up front way more than siblings do.

“Well everyone was jumping on me for saying I would hold private funerals and not tell everyone about it and exclude people. Well, what if that was at the request of the deceased?”

Because the reason you gave was that you, personally, don’t like them. If that wasn’t the reason, if really was actually the wishes expressed by the person whose funeral you’re talking about, fine.

Sometimes we do not have the opportunity to say goodbye prior to the funeral. Not everyone conveniently let’s us know they are dying. People can be snatched away through accidents and other unexpected events. One of my friends dropped dead in the middle of a sentence with no warning, an exceptionally fit and healthy 35year old. That memorial service was important, and the wake afterwards (we toasted his memory in every pub in the city, it was an apt memorial). Okay, that memorial wasn’t child friendly, but the service held back in his hometown was – his three year old nephew read some sort of eulogy out (Im not sure what he said, as I cannot speak Scandanavian toddler!). Everyone spoke how the funeral was important, because no one expected him to suddenly die.

My aunt doesn’t have a computer and is illiterate. I send Christmas cards. I do see her if I go home at the holidays, but I typically go home for a three-day weekend and see my parents and grandmother and friends in a neighboring city. Don’t always have time to see her unless she happens to be at my parents’ house.

Dolly, that is a whole lot of judgement from someone who said they wouldn’t invite their in-laws to their own son’s funeral. Why don’t you give your high horse a break already. Get over yourself and grow up.

Dolly, given how absolutely judgmental you are of anyone who’s life doesn’t fit into your black and white ideas of how things should be I can absolutely see why you have such issues with so many people. If you have half as selfish and ugly an attitude about things as you show here I would easily believe that every problem you have, especially with your in-laws, is of your own making. I hope for the sake of your children they don’t suffer when you reap what you sew.

My elder daughter is upset she can’t get to the wake of a friend of ours. Basically, I’m going to be away from home for 3 days and 2 nights and my host doesn’t have enough room for a kid after giving couch space to 3 adults. We want her there, we just don’t have the room for her to sleep. I’m not about to let her sleep on the “other couch” in the same room with a man I do not trust (for my own personal reasons, not just cause he’s a man). That would be the only place for her to stay. I’m going to be on a small cot and will be lucky if I can get sleep. Simply put, there is no room for her.

Then there’s the latest fun I’ve had. My girls and I were visiting a friend’s place when her dogs needed to be walked. The kids volunteered and her husband, pretty much a complete stranger to the kids, offered to walk (was told to walk by his wife/my friend) with the girls for safety, since it was 8pm at night. My friend turned to me after the trio and dogs had left and pretty much said “how can you be sure about this? Aren’t you worried?” I looked at her and said that if even though I was scared, I had to trust them, and him with the girls, or else they’d live a life of fear.

This same friend was very concerned for my safety just a week earlier when I said I’d walk home from her place, in the dark, about 9pm at night. My safety? I’m a grown woman that has taken walks in the dark all my life. My walk was about 8 city blocks, downhill, on a lit sidewalk other than the half a block from her driveway. She was having fits over the thought of me being alone and made me promise to phone her the second I walked through the door. She had wanted me to be driven home by her husband (who had just had a stroke) or picked up by mine, forcing all my kids out of their beds for no good reason. I told her “if I am afraid of the dark, I am a prisoner in my own home.” She hemmed and hawed for a moment and then said that she saw my point.

Since that walk in the dark, I’ve taken to taking one walk a week in the dark/after 8. If I don’t, I show my girls that they should be afraid. My elder daughter has wanted to come with me a few times. The dark is scary and thrilling at the same time. I love it and has always loved it. I used to take walks at 1 or 2 in the morning, when the city is all but shut down, just for the thinking time when I had insomnia and it is some of my favorite memories.

Kiesha: So if funerals are not for the dead, but for the living, then I guess I would be totally justified in not allowing people I didn’t like to come? Since they might upset me?

Dolly, you can but it still makes you an awful human being to ban parents from their own child’s funeral. Decent people don’t do that.

Like Hineata; I am Maori and my children have been to many many funerals. They know the difference between a tangi where there is obvious grief and lots of family around to play with, and the european funerals, where we dress up and sit quietly, and the whole funeral is over in a day. They have seen their baby cousin’s body and grieved for him and they have seen their dead grandfather. My children are taught when to be respectful and up till they age of 3 there tends to be a great deal of tolerance for the noises any child makes while sitting for a time. If I was asked not to bring my children then I would make other arrangements but that would be frowned upon in New Zealand whether you were Maori or Pakeha (european). My Daughter however is with me as is her duty as the eldest daughter of the eldest daughter of the eldest daughter……..it is how it is done in my family