A Walmart Abduction Attempt — And What the Video Means

This little girl did exactly what she was supposed to do – kick and scream. I hope that people heard that message and not that it’s never safe to leave your child unattended. Even when you’re a couple aisles away. I certainly remember my parents letting me wander around Target or wherever when I was a kid. I even did it at Home Depot. It was much more exciting to me looking at model kitchens than sticking by my dad while he was grabbing paint or manure or whatever else he was doing there.

I hope that people apply some perspective to this situation and realize how ill-fated it was to begin with – the would-be kidnapper had to have been out to win the 2012 Darwin award for trying to snatch someone in a store with cameras, monitored exit ways, and dozens of by-standers and employees. You can’t even get away with shoplifting a pack of gum there much less a 60 pound girl. Stoopid.

My mother-in-law lambasted the mother for leaving the girl alone, and also the media for supposedly not noticing that the girl was alone in the first place. I didn’t tell her that I completely plan on leaving her grandsons in the toy aisle for a few minutes when they’re old enough, just like my parents did with me.

I don’t have a blog, but if I did, I’d post this story as “Child Not Abducted at Walmart.” Might I suggest that FRKers who do have blogs that discuss this kind of topic, do that? A dozen or so of that headline, and Google might even notice it.

And I agree that I feel only sympathy for the Mom being afraid to let go of her child right now. We can just hope that in time, she’ll gain better perspective. But she wouldn’t be quite human if she didn’t have a sort of flight (as in flight from all possibility of such a thing happening again) reaction to something like that.

The reaction I’ve seen has been mixed. The child was seven, not three. I think most finger-pointers were more concerned about whether that particular store was the best place to let the child exercise independence. (People do love to hate Walmart).

Personally I let my kids putz around in certain stores, and have since they were around 4. I am guided by instinct and common sense. There are places where I would not feel comfortable doing that. I notice things like whether there are multiple public exits, whether I can hear my kids from where I am, whether there are enough people around to notice if anything weird happened, etc. My kids are also developing their own sense of what feels safe in a public place (though mine doesn’t always agree with theirs).

One thing to remember is that while stranger abduction is rare, it is more common for people to do nasty things to girls without physically removing them to another place. So I don’t think people are crazy for keeping their girls (or boys) in sight when a place doesn’t feel all that safe.

But yes, this girl’s action is a great reminder to parents to teach kids how to react in the unlikely event they are ever grabbed. One commenter on another site said it well: there are 2 crime scenes in an abduction: (a) the abduction spot and (b) the place they take the victim to do . . . whatever. The goal is to not get to crime scene (b). Whatever it takes.

Good job, Brittney, and whoever taught her what to do.

P.S. The video will not be playing over and over again in my mind. I haven’t watched it. When I read the location after the headline I stopped reading after that. That’s another problem that we have in this society. Yes, it’s a horrific news-worthy story. But not living in that area, it has no direct effect on my life. If there were a known kidnapper on the loose within 3 or 5 towns of me I’d like to know and be vigilant. But if it’s not in my local geographic area I don’t want 5 minutes devoted to it on my local news.

My youngest daughter will sometimes practice being abducted. She has to do it outside because her scream is soooooo loud.
I think there’s a little part of her that almost wants someone to try, just so she can really let loose. I don’t worry about her.
When she was four she disappeared at a park. Completely disappeared. I knew that as a “good mother” I should be worried sick, but I hadn’t heard her scream so I knew she was okay. I got her big sister and we started looking, and listening. Sure enough, she was just fine. She was hiding under a picnic table in the shade, taking a break from the sun.
After that I let her know she needed to tell me if she was going to go somewhere other than where she was supposed to be.
Now days I send them to the park together without me. And I still don’t worry because my youngest practiced once, and I know I can hear her scream from my house. (And she now knows the story of the boy who cried wolf, so… no more unannounced practicing lest I fail to come running when it matters.)
I’m proud of this girl for being brave and bold and smart in that situation. I hope all kids are so well prepared. I’ve had a conversation going on my facebook page and the consensus among my friends is that prepared kids are protected kids.

A little off topic but my local news has a story about an apparent “rash” of deaths caused by TVs falling into kids. The solution? Never ever take your eyes off your kids for even one minute, even at home. And oh yeah, don’t put TVs on top of dressers.

I heard about this but haven’t watched the video and don’t intend to. It hasn’t affected my parenting at all. In fact we were at Wal-mart (in SW Washington State) the other day with our 1yo and 5yo. I was using the bathroom and my husband said he was going to go look at the books while they waited. As I was leaving the stall I found my 5yo daughter walking in. All I did was ask where Daddy was. He was still in the book section so she had walked herself over (about 30 feet). I waited outside in case she didn’t know how to get back to the books (it’s not an area of the store we hang around usually). She gave me a look like, “why are you waiting?”

In fact she just left the house to go play with her friend. She lives down the street. Not worried at all. She does it all the time.

Yesterday we were at Red Robin with the 1yo and our oldest (11 1/2). The older one forgot her book in the car and was bored so I told her to quit whining and go get it. She was like, “all by myself”. I just kind of stared at her. If she can’t handle walking across an almost empty restaurant and out to the car at almost 12 years old then I have failed as a parent. Finally she went and came back all proud. I just shook my head because the 5yo could have handled that (except maybe opening the door because it’s heavy). But the oldest has all sorts of anxiety issues.

That little girl in Georgia did everything right and should be praised and feel awfully proud of herself. But what’s really going to happen is the mom will be vilified and become a social pariah who never lets her daughter have an ounce of freedom again. Poor kid.

This is off-topic, but I can bet there will be parents who will never let their kids ride a school bus again. You just never know when one will burst into flames. That’s what happens when we take our eyes off of our kids and let them ride a school bus without us. (that was sarcastic)
http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/n-c-school-bus-driver-saves-students-burning-171022146–abc-news.html

Ask the victims of people like Jerry Sanduski if they don’t wish their parents had watched them a little more closely and not put blind faith in strangers. It’s not as rare as you may think. The potential harm a child may suffer hugely outweighs the extra effort it takes as a parent to keep an eye on your child. The world has changed since we were children.

My local news station ran a story about this on facebook. The first comment went on and on about how kids aren’t safe anywhere and how you should never take your eyes off of your children and watch them constantly. I was lucky enough to get the second comment in. I pointed out that if you teach your children what to look out and how to protect themselves you WILL be able to take your eyes off of them.
Apparently folks in NW Ohio aren’t as free-ranging as I had hoped.
7? Children are much too young to be left alone at 7! Maybe…15? Yeah, I actually read comments that said they would not think about leaving their kids alone until they are least 15! And there were many more comments blaming the mother for this!!!!

Growing up we had lots of freedom as kids, most everyone did. I made it ok. Some kids didn’t – that was the way it was. Everyone knew someone whose brother sister or cousin died or was seriously injured due to some mishap. It’s what happened. People had lots of kids and not all of them made it into adulthood. Darwin’s survival theory in motion. The kids who were unfortunate or tried something dumb didn’t survive until adulthood.
While I fully agree that children need to learn responsibility and that danger isn’t lurking around every corner, the world is not completely safe to just let kids run free. It’s worth the extra trouble and inconvenience to be careful and watchful.

It’s worth the extra trouble and inconvenience to be careful and watchful.

HOW MUCH extra trouble and inconvenience? And if the extra trouble and inconvenience start to have negative effects on the children, at what point is it no longer worth it?

I heard that there were a lot of negative comments directed at the mother as a result of this video, which is sad, because the first thing that occurred to me was “that girl’s mother taught her right!” Fact: this adorable little girl was NOT abducted, in part because she was empowered to help herself. Anyone brings this up to me as a reason to helicopter is going to find themselves disappointed. Kudos to that little girl, and kudos to her parents.

BTW, @ Ross – thank you for the Darwin Awards reference!

A nonsensational, helpful guide to teach your child how to protect him/herself is Gavin DeBecker’s book, Protecting the Gift. A survivor of childhood abuse, DeBecker approaches the issue in a practical manner. Every caregiver needs a copy!

A helpful guide to teach your child how to protect him/herself is Gavin DeBecker’s book, Protecting the Gift. A survivor of childhood abuse, DeBecker approaches the issue in a practical manner. Every caregiver needs a copy!

1 out of 5 children experience sexual abuse, 53 children are sexually abused each day in the UK – those are just the reported ones. To me that does not qualify as rare.
It is our responsibility as parents to protect our children and to teach them how to be responsible in an age appropriate way. I applaud the mother of the girl in Walmart for teaching her daughter do well what to do if approached inappropriately by someone. I feel sorry for her that she went through such a scare. But I am not surprised that she is now saying she won’t let her daughter out of her sight. Walmart is how many square feet? Probably not the kind of place to let your small child run freely. Places like Walmart, amusement parks, and other public places are where child predators look for unattended unwatched children. Why exposé our kids to this threat at such an early age just to prove a point or to give ourselves a more relaxing shopping experience by letting the toy aisle do the babysitting?
How many parents leave your houses unlocked at night? How many leave expensive items out unattended? Why not give the same care and attention to our children. What’s worse – making them a little too cautious ( true not great) or just letting them run free and hope they beat the odds. We don’t do that with our valuable possessions – why do that with our kids?

Jolene-jenn, if you had done your homework, you will have realized that most incidents of sexual abuse are perpetrated by someone the victim already knows, NOT a stranger! It’s very rare that an incident like this happens

Hi Maggie! Actually I am very aware that most child abuse is not done by strangers. Most abuse on kids is by known people – friends or family members, sadly even parents – people who you would expect would be devoted to caring for and protecting them instead. If 1 out of every 5 children experiences sexual abuse and most is perpetrated by family members and friends it makes a sad statement on our society – it’s not always the safest place for kids!

Anyway as someone said it is good everything turned out okay in this situation and that the girl knew what to do and the mom is okay and relieved her daughter is ok. I certainly wouldn’t blame anyone – we all make mistakes, look away or get distracted.

Jolene-jenn – See the problem is that most of the people here absolutely don’t consider this a “mistake” on the part of the mother. The mother made a conscious choice to let her child roam a short distance from her. The child was FINE. Scared, I’m sure, but FINE. In fact, she proved that she is 100% worthy of being allowed to roam a short distance away from her mother. A scary situation came up and she handled it like a pro.

I certainly don’t want my child abducted but I don’t think me being with her 24/7 lest a scary event occurs is the right answer. She needs to be able to handle scary situations and know what to do in the case of an emergency because I am not always going to be present. She goes to school and other activities where scary things can happen. She goes to friends house where scary things can happen. She will eventually go to college where many scary things can happen.

And I’m with Ross. You have to be a complete idiot to try anything at Walmart, let alone stealing a kid. Walmart is equipped with hundreds of cameras. From the moment you enter the parking lot, you are on video.

“Ask the victims of people like Jerry Sanduski if they don’t wish their parents had watched them a little more closely and not put blind faith in strangers. ”

And ask the parents of this little girl whether they trained their little girl not to put blind faith in strangers and to react properly when a stranger tries to hurt them, instead of being afraid of everyone and everything.

Lenore (do you mind my being ‘familiar’ in my address, it is meant as a compliment) you are a remarkable woman; as a 66 year old Oma, whose kids were pretty much Free Range (my parenting style was similar to my approach to caring for my plants, benign neglect, actually a couple of years ago my baby, 24 at the time, and working at the same small company as I, overheard me talking with a colleague about my older, 42 at the time, son and his wife’s ‘helicopter’ parenting. He stepped in and remarked, ‘Don’t listen to her, Laurie, her parenting style was ‘Are you bleeding, do you need to go to the emergency room? If not, go play and come back when you can play bridge or talk politics.’ I started to get defensive, then laughed when I realized he was right. The exception was they were always welcome on my lap while I was reading, especially if they brought their own book to read, too!) you’ve put words to the changes in parenting that worried me for my grandkids (your site is now one of my older son and his wife’s favorites, sometimes it takes a person outside the family to make the point) and our culture in a larger sense. So, kudos, thanks, and my great respect for your willingness to ‘push against the tide.’

What really prompted my stopping to comment though is your last sentence. AMEN! Because it seems to me that in a real way, they are stealing our souls. It’s good to be reminded what’s at stake, which is being freely and fully human.

@Donna, well yes you are right that we can’t control other people’s driving. But still on an individual (not statistical) basis, we do have more options in a car. And if you’re the passenger, you can assume that the driver has those options you would have if you were driving. I’m sorry you were in so many accidents, not even moving…that seems like a lot. I’m just pointing out that people FEEL safer in a car because they feel that they are more likely to be able to do something to help themselves in a car situation than in a plane situation. I don’t have a scientific study to prove this, it’s just my impression, that’s all. It’s why I am less comfortable in a plane than in a car, whether passenger or driver. Maybe for others there’s another reason but the statistics of the probability of an accident are not helpful when trying to know why people feel that way.

@Jolene-Jenn, I would also be a little sceptical about the 1 in 5 children being sexually abused thing. As a young person involved with looking after kids I used to believe that stat, until I found out that they count kids having been flashed by the dirty old man at the park as sexual abuse. Which, IMHO, is nonsense. If that is considered sexual abuse, then almost every child who ever walked down certain streets in Wellington was sexually abused.We had a harmless mentally ill man who sat on the street wearing a blanket and, often, no underwear. He would often lift his blanket up and down at inopportune times, and many people, kids included, copped an eyeful. Annoying, at times. Sexual abuse, no.

Apparently, you’d have to include all my child’s classmates as sexually abused as well. My daughter hates wearing underwear and she accidentally went to school last week without it while wearing a dress (the rule is she has to wear it unless wearing pants or tights). While inappropriate, I don’t think my daughter’s classmates are going to need therapy because my daughter didn’t wear panties under her dress one day in kindergarten.

@Donna – hilarious! Did the teacher have any spares? We always have some on hand in case of ‘accidents’.

Jolene-jenn – It’s not a group where we all have to think the same we. It is a blog that supports free range parenting and most regular readers are, in fact, free range parents. You are welcome to express any opinion you want, just don’t be surprised when many here disagree, just as I would expect that most would disagree with me if I posted on a helicopter parenting blog.

“I am just coming from a place where I think the role of a parent is to protect & guide and prepare our children for lIfe as future responsible adults.”

We are coming from that place too. Our job is to guide our children and PREPARE them for lives as future adults. That means that we slowly teach them the skills that they need to get by in life all by themselves by 18. We don’t baby them until 18 and then allow them to go out into the world with no life skills or sense of independence. Allowing a 7 year old, who has obviously been taught how to react if a stranger approaches her, to wander an aisle or two away in Walmart is a good small step to total independence at 18. Heck, my 6 year old does it all the time — or did when we lived within 1,000 miles of a Walmart.

And the 7 year was NOT alone at Walmart. She was with her mother who was a short distance away. Children need not be velcroed to their parents to be considered accompanied. A 7 year old who walked to Walmart by herself is alone at Walmart.

Donna As usual, what an excellent response to Jolene-jenn, I could not have done it better myself. Kudos.

By the way, just today, we were at a WalMart, and I let my girl, who will be 5 years old in May, go into the ladies’ bathroom by herself. My mother-in-law was around but I had our girl go in without her. Yes I was near the door but no one, not even my mother-in-law (her grandmother), went in there with her.

About 2 months ago we were at shoe store, a small one, and there’s a section for kids to play in. It’s not supervised, it’s just where shoppers can see it. I let them play in there while I shopped for shoes a couple of aisles away. This included our son who will be 3 in a month. I must say, it was refreshing–the store clerks acted like it was the most normal thing in the world to do. Thankfully not everyone subscribes to the paranoia.

LRH

I’m glad little Brittney (sp?) is fine; I’m glad it turned out okay. That being said, I wouldn’t leave my under-teenage child in a store without me being in the same aisle for a couple of reasons; both of them retail related.

I worked 4 years in Toys R Us (I have the twitch to prove it) and watched so many parents leave little Johnny and Jen in the action figure or Barbie aisle while they went to the video game department (or even worse next door for a coffee) while the toy store employees were their babysitters. Trouble is that little J & J took the toys out of the packages and either walked out of the store with them or left them, damaged in the aisles.

2nd reason is that, even when we teach our kids to be safe and smart, the criminals are smarter and if mom & dad aren’t within a few aisles, it’s far too easy for them to walk out the door to see the puppy or the kitten (7 year olds love pets and balloons and…) Retailers (grocers, etc.) should not be spending their time picking up after the children or making sure children are with their intended adults.

Brittney did what she should have done, but mom / dad should not have left a 7 year old alone in any area of the store without adult supervision.

Again, the mother did nothing wrong. Paige if you’re taking up for store-clerks being overburdened with babysitting services while trying to work, you may have a point. Where it regards a parent having to be RIGHT THERE because “anything can happen,” though, sorry, not buying that. To expect a parent to supervise that hardcore to where their kids are velcroed to their hips 24/7 is absolutely ridiculous and way overboard.

LRH

“Retailers (grocers, etc.) should not be spending their time picking up after the children or making sure children are with their intended adults.”

I agree. So, if your child doesn’t know not to open packages, by all means, you should not allow your child away from you at a store. However, the fact that you have not taught your child that opening packages in a store is inappropriate behavior should not prevent ALL children – those that know that opening packages in a store is inappropriate – from wandering off from their parents. If your child isn’t capable of understanding that concept well before the teens, he or she is seriously developmentally delayed and probably should not be allowed to wander anywhere alone. And if a parent leaves a child who has not mastered this skill unaccompanied in the toy aisle, the store should be perfectly secure in handing the opened packages to the parents and charging them for them.

Nor should the store be concerned with making sure children are with their intended adults. I know where my child is. If she is not with me, it is because I have given her permission to not be with me. I’d prefer you not interfere, thank you.

I should actually rephrase that last line. A child who looks lost, is crying, is upset, or says that he is lost, needs assistance. But a child walking around the store confidently and/or with purpose, is just fine. He or she is not looking for your help to get back to a parent. A child who is browsing the toy section quietly, is not in need of assistance. Kids are very good at making their presence known, especially in a store where the “I wants” are prevalent, so parents walking around happily while their children are someplace else in the store are not looking for your assistance to be reunited with them. They know their children are not with them.

Society needs to stop jumping to this conclusion that ALL children who are unaccompanied at that immediate second are in need of assistance to get back to an adult.

But I’m getting tired of that car v. airplane argument. It’s not about the statistics. It’s about control.

Exactly. And when it comes to watching your child all day, every day, it’s about control.

In both cases, the control isn’t really there. People like to think they’re “doing something”, but that’s not the case.

Flying from NY to CA is safer than driving that distance. Letting your child walk to school is safer than driving her to school. You have to give up this idea that you can control things.

“Unless they’re actively misbehaving, but be honest, plenty of adults engage in casual package-opening as well.”

That’s called shoplifting which is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law at Walmart. I’ve represented hundreds so charged. Under Paige’s rationale, because some adults shoplift, no adults should be allowed in stores.

And why the heck are teens okay to be alone? If we are insisting that all preteens stay with their parents because some cause trouble, why shouldn’t the teens have to stay with their parents since we know some of them cause trouble?

Yes, if I were a liberal, I’d be screaming age discrimination because of the standards we hold kids to. Think of all the things we ban kids from lest they annoy, when adults have been known to do worse things and not get banned. It always gets my goat when people say that young kids should not be in restaurants, because they might make a peep, while every time you go out, there is at least one loud, obnoxious adult in the vicinity. Adults disorganize merchandise and sometimes damage and open it. It’s annoying, but it’s part of the deal if you’re a retailer.

“You rarely hear of a child being kidnapped in the presence of a parent.”

Actually, I’d like to see statistics on that. Most of the stranger abductions I recall hearing of occurred while the child was within the home or sight of the parent.

Fact is, stranger abduction from a public place is so extremely rare, I’m not sure there are reliable statistics. I think in this case, the dude who did this has to be mental, because who doesn’t know that there are cameras all around Wal-Mart and that little girls have vocal chords? No, I don’t think this was a case of a smart kidnapper.

And as others have mentioned, the term “alone” is relative. Mom was nearby. They were in a public place full of shoppers and employees. The child was seven. I don’t call that “alone” and even if it is, that degree of “alone” is age-appropriate (unless that particular location is a known creep-magnet or something).

Jolene-jenn, please stop using the words “run free” to describe free range parenting. Running free doesn’t assume any readiness or preparedness, and as has been explained several times by posters more eloquent than me, free range is all about readiness, preparedness, and education BEFORE the activity (such as walking 20 feet away from Mom in a store – hardly running free) is allowed.

Jolene-Jenn, yeah, going across the street for a coffee clatch while your 5yo babysits your 6mo is not what we advocate here. There are extremes in every demographic. But kids (and environments) are all so different, it would be very counterproductive to set an age at which it is OK to stop visually monitoring all children or whatever. On the positive side, most parents care enough about their kids that the thought of losing them motivates the vast majority to make appropriate decisions when it comes to serious safety issues.

People need to stop judging others based on what “they” would have done with “their” child. My child is not your child. If you treat my kid like she was less mature and capable than she is, that’s insulting and unfair to my kid, and undermines me as a parent. Plus, would you like me to give you the stinkeye every time your parenting choice doesn’t impress me? Personally I think it’s unhealthy and growth-stunting for a child to be in diapers or use a pacifier past a certain age. Do we need a law or judgment council? Or should I mind my own business?

SKL: would you like me to give you the stinkeye every time your parenting choice doesn’t impress me? Personally I think it’s unhealthy and growth-stunting for a child to be in diapers or use a pacifier past a certain age. Do we need a law or judgment council? Or should I mind my own business?

Exactly. I get irritated when I see parents use a pacifier with a freaking 2 year old, when we broke ours of it by 6 months. Our son was potty-trained by the age of 2. I sure prefer that to seeing a 4 year-old still in diapers, and I will admit that if someone asks me what I think I will state my opinion. But sneer at the parent and judge them? No, that is where I’m crossing the line and not minding my own business.

You nailed it right square on the head, SKL. I say “right on” emphatically for your sane perspective. Nathan Hennig, same thing.

LRH

LRH – I am not sure why you are in attack mode. I have just brought up on-topic items for thought & discussion in a very respectful way. This is normally an okay thing to do in most blogs or forums.
I have no idea why you are so defensive and so determined to attack anyone who might think differently than you do?
I have to say though I never expected to come across a place where the majority of people so strongly agree with a 5 and 2 year old babysitting a baby.
Anyway this blog appears to be one where comments that are not strongly in support of “free range parenting” are not wanted, but rather a place people come to reassure each other and reinforce their own practices.
You are actually driving people away from the concept by appearing to be so radical and defensive.

I’m not sure Jolene-jenn, but he may be a bit defensive because of statements like, “I am just coming from a place where I think the role of a parent is to protect & guide and prepare our children for lIfe as future responsible adults. ”
This is a very passive-aggressive, not to mention insulting, way of implying free range parents do not want or do the same thing for their children. This could not be further from the truth! That is EXACTLY what free range parents want! We just go about a different way then you do!

“The thing we need to see is that it was the lack of the mother’s presence that empowered this would-be kidnapper in the first place.”

It is also what empowered the child to fight back. Some posters above said only teenagers shoud be trusted to be alone, not capable children of varying ages. I want to prepare you for what to expect:

My neighbor is a 13 yo girl. She has never been out of her parent’s sight. She went on her first trip to NYC this winter break, and had a miserable time. She wouldn’t let go of her mother’s hand for fear someone in the crowded streets could snatch her at anytime. She left nail marks in her mom’s arm. I ran into them in a Target a month ago (their whole family shops together) and the 13 yo needed the dad to WALK HER back to return a pair of jeans she had decided not to get. She is seeing a doctor for a “sleep disorder” according to mom, because she is afraid someone might break into her window at night. I don’t know what prescription she is on, but suspect that she is being treated for an anxiety disorder. Mom said the medicine makes her sleep so deeply, she has trouble getting her up for school each day.

“…you are arguing from the mistaken assumption that being out of sight of a parent significantly increases a child’s chances of being abducted. That’s like assuming that leaving your house significantly increases your chances of being hit by a tornado.”

I love this analogy, Jenny Islander! Thanks!

After the Xenia tornado in the early 70’s, I was tempted to live my whole life in the basement, and bring my family with me. I was five. My parents had a little more perspective about the laws of probability, but their attempts to bring me into a state of acceptance failed.

I get the sense that it is each individual’s journey to achieve a state of acceptance, to see “control” as a strategy, not a need, and to find peace in a world where things can’t, and won’t, always go the way we think they “should.”

Even on Lenore’s show, those folks self-select to bring themselves into a new paradigm. They might be nudged a little by a teenaged child, but if they weren’t seeing that their own strategy of “control” wasn’t supporting their own health (intense anxiety and stress seems to be a hallmark of these parents), they wouldn’t be up for Lenore’s “challenges” and turning to a new way of being in the world.

If someone is deeply, firmly entrenched in their belief that the only way to have safety is to supervise directly, well, trying to talk them out of that will be like dunking their head under water. They will flail and fight and curse you, because you are threatening their very life… or their child’s life, in the case of supervision. It won’t be rational discussion. When folks are in the grip of fear and can’t witness how their thoughts create their reality, no amount of help from the outside will contribute to peace.

What I do is just beam love at whomever is freaking out on me. Obviously they care deeply about something… safety… well-being… peace… I might guess about that, and tell them how I value those things as well, and that my choices about allowing my children some room for independent decision-making is the best strategy I can come up with to support those very things.

We can disagree without being disagreeable. Verily, I say, we can disagree with love and compassion!

“This is probably my biggest aggravation, and as someone who has had to defend my own family from this sort of thing, whether in terms of judgmental sneering or even visits from social services”

LRH,
This whole discussion seems to be directed more at the right of parents to parent any way they please without interference from concerned neighbors, police, or social services.
People become involved out of concern for the child, not out of a sense of being a busybody.
It’s better to risk possibly offending an innocent party than risk not doing anything for a child in danger.
Sadly, as has been mentioned several times on this thread, statistics show that children are in most danger of being abused, neglected or harmed by people they know – including their parents.
If parents are statistically among the most likely to harm a child why would a responsible society support the idea that all parents should be able to have total free reign in the way they bring up their children?
Children are more at risk from their own family and friends than from strangers – this includes all of us as parents . Its a good thing that people ask question or try to intervene if they are concerned about a child, isn’t it?

I will stop commenting. The purpose of this forum seems to be more about what rights you should have as parents to do whatever you want – and much less about the child.

Jolene-jenn: “It’s better to risk possibly offending an innocent party than risk not doing anything for a child in danger.”

Yes, BUT the key word is DANGER.

A child is not “in danger” just because she’s doing something at an earlier age than you would prefer for her to do it.

A child is “in danger” if she’s being criminally abused, wandering cluelessly around moving vehicles, or crying “help” without a caregiver in sight.

You should understand that I may be actively trying to teach my child a skill when you consider intervening. It’s like if I sent my kid to use the toilet, and a well-meaning mom headed her off and put a diaper on her. Or if I were teaching my kid to swim, and a well-meaning dad handed her a flotation device. No thank you! But if my kid is flailing and sputtering in the pool, or desperately looking for a bathroom while holding herself, by all means give her a hand. Can you tell the difference?

@Jolene-jenn, The purpose of this forum is not about parents doing whatever they want, even if it means neglecting a child. There is a big difference being a free-range parent and a neglectful one.

Free-range parents realize that they are not raising children, they are raising adults (borrowed from Dr. Phil, but it’s fitting). Free-range parenting is about giving your kids age-appropriate responsibility and independence. For example, when my son was 7, he was too young to go skiing without adult supervision. But since last year (he’s almost 13) he has been allowed to go skiing with his friends without an adult. He knows what to do if he or one of his friends gets hurt or otherwise needs assistance. When Lenore let her son ride the subway by himself at age 9, they had discussed it beforehand. They both felt that he was ready to do it because he was familiar with the area and how to get home on the subway. It wasn’t like she abandoned him in the middle of Moscow on their first day there and told him to find his way to their hotel on the Metro.

When a free-range child goes off to college, or gets his first job and apartment, he is equipped to handle life because he has been given increasing amounts of independence and responsibility as he gets older. He does not need to call Mom and Dad about every little thing that comes up. Free range parenting is not, as a lot of people think, throwing your kids out the door and forcing them to fend for themselves.

Neglect is failing to provide for a child’s physical needs. A child who does not have adequate clothing, food, or medical care is a victim of neglect. A child in a different aisle of a store than her mother or who’s walking down the street on his own is not a neglected one.

@Paige

“I worked 4 years in Toys R Us (I have the twitch to prove it) and watched so many parents leave little Johnny and Jen in the action figure or Barbie aisle while they went to the video game department (or even worse next door for a coffee) while the toy store employees were their babysitters. Trouble is that little J & J took the toys out of the packages and either walked out of the store with them or left them, damaged in the aisles.”

I don’t understand how the fact that some children mishandle merchandise in stores has anything to do with whether a child who has been taught not to mishandle merchandise in stores, should be a few feet away from a parent. Can you explain the connection?

People like to say “you attract for flies with honey than vinegar,” my reply—flies spread germs, why would I want to attract them in the first place?

To trap them so they aren’t flying around spreading disease. The fable the moral comes from predates the use of flypaper.

Ironically, though, you actually catch more flies with balsamic vinegar than with honey.

SKL said: “You should understand that I may be actively trying to teach my child a skill when you consider intervening. It’s like if I sent my kid to use the toilet, and a well-meaning mom headed her off and put a diaper on her. Or if I were teaching my kid to swim, and a well-meaning dad handed her a flotation device. No thank you! But if my kid is flailing and sputtering in the pool, or desperately looking for a bathroom while holding herself, by all means give her a hand. Can you tell the difference?”

I really enjoy this series of comparisons you’ve made here. And I guess what comes up for me is that my parents in the 1970s had the space to “teach from a distance” using well-chosen times and places where I could be on my own and learn independent decision-making skills, not to mention just be alone and watch the sky, make a little house out of grass, whatever.

Even by 70s standards, my parents were a bit radical. Once my parents divorced, my life with my mother would very likely be seen as “child endangerment” by today’s standards… even in the 80s, she mentioned a few times that she rued the fact that it wasn’t legal to leave me on my own for a weekend at age 13. I have to say that I was pretty rueful myself, wondering why it was she had children in the first place if she didn’t want the responsibility of seeing them safely into adulthood! She resented having to arrange supervision for me while she went on recreational trips, and by the time I was 14 or 15, left me alone.

At 16, I went to college, and was by far the most “responsible” and self-preserving kid on my dorm floor… that lack of supervision certainly prepared me to understand how to take care of myself. I’ve said many times over the years, while I found my mother’s resentment a burden, and found some of her choices to be lacking in consideration of my needs as a young person—I’m glad I knew how to do certain things that my peers did not. Time and again I was recognized as being “wise beyond my years.” There is a balance to be struck, between indifference and smothering. I think of it as nurturing.

My mom didn’t really nurture me past the age of about 7. I see what that did to our relationship, what it did for my emotional state, the relationships I chose as an adult, how I parent now. While I love the idea of allowing kids to learn through experience, I don’t love the idea of being indifferent to their longing for support, warmth, companionship, family, community, love, and acceptance, and I can’t see that anyone calling themselves a “Free Range Parent” is indifferent to these essential human values, and doing their best to integrate it all, every day, into their parenting.

So where did that “space” go, the space that was there for parents in the 1970s? The space to be nurturing and also give late-elementary-aged kids a chance to run an errand at the store, or watch a younger sibling for an hour, or walk to school alone, or get themselves to sports practice and home again? How has it become fashionable to assume every child is in grave danger as soon as they are “out in the world” without Mom or Dad? Why has it become nearly reflexive to assume any child “alone” is needing intervention?

When my stepson lives with us, he gets himself to school. He walks or bikes, it’s about a mile each way, same distance I went as a kid. He’s on the chunky side, and not particularly obsessed with moving around, so we imagine it’s a good idea to build in self-powered transit into his life. When he’s with his mom, he gets driven, and school is the same or shorter distance from her place. She says she just does it out of habit, to make things easier for her, to avoid arguments in the morning. But she’s clucked her tongue at the fact that my daughter, a year younger, walks to school on her own, saying it’s “not right.” This boy is 9 1/2. He weighs 120 lbs and is 4′ 7″ tall. When he lived with us for two months in the fall, he was 10 lbs leaner.

Again, I say that “Free Range Parenting” is very much about well-being! When “safety” is the only value you’re considering in your parenting decisions, all kinds of other things go by the wayside—things that were taken for granted as humans evolved over thousands of years. Only so recently have we found it acceptable to insist on “safety” while sacrificing learning and growth… joy and self-connection… community and competence.

I’m so, so, SO grateful that Lenore “pop-cultured” this issue and continues to find more ways to hold the mirror up to the way attitudes have transformed in such a short time, and what the consequences of those attitudes might be.

YAY LENORE!!!!!!!

What do you value said: “OK — next time I expect you to leave your purse with him, while you are gone for ‘a couple’ minutes”…

I thought you were thinking a kid is not mature enough not to spend the money from the purse, NOT that you were suggesting parents who give their children some independence value their wallets/purses MORE than their kids….

The would be purse snatchers are not the same people as the would be kidnappers or pedophiles. There are many more people that would steal a purse, cell phone, car, etc than would kidnap a child. Think about the RARE stories when someone steals a car without realizing there is a kid in the back and then panics and abandons the car… there are people who would chose to steal money/objects or monetary value (something that every one can use)…the weirdos out there looking for a kid to kidnap are few and far between…

Also, I don’t need to give my PURSE increasingly more independence. I don’t need my PURSE to learn to function without me someday and make decisions….oh, and I can’t teach my PURSE to scream like hell if someone comes along and tries to grab it….

A purse and cell phone can’t be taught to fight back. I don’t leave my purse lying around in a cart in a store because I know that it won’t kick, scream and bite if being taken like this 7 year old very successfully did. I do leave it in the cart with my 6 year old because I know that my 6 year old will yell if someone tries to take it.

I don’t give my purse or cell phone to my 6 year old to carry because she is likely to lose it. I am not worried about it getting stolen from her (as we already covered, she would scream if that occurred). I’m worried about the very high probability of her putting it down to look at something and not picking it back up. She can’t put herself down somewhere and not pick herself back up so I think she’s good alone.

Further, I am not tasked with the job of teaching my purse and cellphone to grow into adult purses and cellphones able to live independently from me. My purse and cell phone will always be under my care and supervision. They don’t need to be schooled in how to survive without me. They have already reached their full potential in life. My 6 year old, on the other hand, will one day go to college, move into her own apartment, travel, get a job, get married, have her own children. It’s my job to make sure she knows how to take care of herself before any of these things occur.

Okay, let me try again.

Z-girl Yes, I am very passionate about my freedom. You better believe it. Not to get on a soapbox too much, but it’s being attacked constantly in many areas. Sometimes I think people confuse USA with the former USSR, frankly.

That said, this is about free-range parenting, and I don’t intend to bring up the non-parenting issues much.

Regardless, I can assure you, I don’t seek to “drive anyone way” & I hope I am not doing that. Even so, based on my experiences & on the experiences of others, this is a serious issue in my opinion. It’s one thing for someone to argue that children who are being abused should be rescued, & that intervention & looking out for innocent kids who can’t protect themselves from it is a noble & proper pursuit. I think almost all of us here feel that way. It’s quite another for it to be taken way farther than that to where, if you are a parent doing nothing wrong, you feel as if the entire world is just staring at you with eagle-eyes just waiting for the fainest hint that you’re not always Mr or Ms Sunshine, or that sometimes you don’t clutch your children like space aliens are coming to get them–and they immediately start labeling you a neglectful parent & even advocating legal intervention at times.

As Lenore has stated, it’s become a “blame culture.” People want to blame someone everytime an incident like this happens, and 97% of the time it’s the parent who gets blamed. Compare this to past generations where parents were SUPPORTED and uplifted, and given the benefit of the doubt until they did something terrible to prove they weren’t deserving of it.

As a parent, heck as a citizen of the USA, living under a microscope is not something I’m keen on, and I press back against it anytime I feel such looming, or whenever someone advocates for it to be that way.

I can debate things in a less “heated” manner if it’s someone saying “I respect what you guys are trying to do, but I just couldn’t parent my kids that way.” Fine. But when you have someone saying that in essence “I’m letting my child free-range & I’d really appreciate your not interferring with that” and this person (Donna) is saying this in a VERY MATURE sort of manner, only to then have the person take issue with that, well, and advocating a culture that meddles in someone’s business–that’s just plain offensive. Now this person is going beyond just “I don’t think I could parent my kids that way” to actually saying something along the lines of “I don’t advocate just standing by while you parent your kids that way because I think it’s wrong & I don’t agree with it.”

I can make an honest attempt to debate, with calm reason, the pros & cons of free-range parenting vs helicopter & hopefully not demean someone else just because they’re still processing the specifics of the contrasting styles and engaging in reasoned debate about it. But where it regards someone suggesting that we should have this meddling & blaming culture and interfere in people’s business, I think it merits a strong response. A hysterical one that sounds crazy & “polarizing” or nasty? Probably not, but a strong response just the same.

LRH

@Taradlion

Crimes of opportunity.

@ what do you value:

I do not disagree, but many, many more people are looking for the opportunity to take a purse than an opportunity to take a child. MANY, MANY, MANY more.

Also, all joking aside, my purse is an object of value, but not a living person. I value my children far more than my purse. I am concerned for their safety, but I need to balance that with my concern for their learning skills they need in life. I want them to be confident and capable adults. I also try to balance risk with their enjoying life. No mater how hard I try, I can not remove all risk from my children’s lives…but I can remove all joy in trying to do so.

I hope I am not over-posting, but I really wanted to say I absolutely LOVED Donna‘s rational & level-headed rebuttal (yes, that’s a link) to what I was talking about (“I don’t want you interfering” vs “I have a problem with that statement”).

Z-Girl If the point you are making is that the rebuttals need to be more like that, well, I can understand somewhat. I think some of the “strong words” I use on occasion may, just MAY, be justified, that said, I must say, I really REALLY like Donna’s methodical & non-flinching rebuttal, and I really love the examples she gave. I was reading it and thinking “yes!” and “yes!” again and “oh yeah!” etc.

I especially want to highlight the statement: “Those are things [fear, hunger etc] that should be looked for. If you can’t tell the difference between a kid who is going off somewhere alone confidently and happily and a child in need of CPS services, you shouldn’t interfere in any situation.”

That is absolutely right. People seem to think very blasé and casually about interfering, especially in terms of calling family services. They act as if it’s no big deal to call if no harmful acts are being done. That’s not at all true. It can be VERY upsetting to the family, and possibly open a can of worms that does no one, the children included, any good. At the least the family is compelled to leave work early, thus losing wages, to go to court if it goes that far, or even to come home or go wherever to meet the social worker to clarify matters. It’s not a 5-minute “over & done” thing that doesn’t interfere. I can interfere a LOT, and it has the “chilling effect” of scaring some persons into parenting in ways they don’t believe just so as to avoid all of this, & that is wrong. I don’t get the impression that Donna is that sort of person (I sure as heck am not), but some people are–and they don’t need to change on account of people that can’t leave a good parent alone in peace.

So yes, think before you call. You have a responsibility to actually think before you do, and use some sane and rational judgment. If you can’t, the issue is bigger than you have the ability to understand, it’s meddling, and yes–you need to leave it alone.

Period.

LRH

Like Lollipoplover, my 5yo daughters have purses in which they carry cash. I don’t. I mostly deal in plastic.

But more to the point, my wallet does not need to learn to conduct itself in a complex world. My daughters do.

Another point regarding “what do you value.” I would not throw my wallet into a swimming pool. But I would throw my kids into one, after making sure they had the ability to get themselves back out. I think it’s fair to give me the benefit of the doubt that if they weren’t good swimmers, I’d throw them in the shallow end rather than the deep end. After all, I went through a lot to get them to the point they are at. It would kinda suck if they drowned the first time I threw them in the pool.

The easy route would be to just not take my kids to a pool in the first place. Maybe that’s what I should do, though. “Girls, we aren’t going to the pool any more because I value your life. Check back with me in about five years.”

As a former swim instructor, I love pool and water analogies. My kids (now 7 and 10) are strong swimmers. They have been safe deep water swimmers since they were 4. My teaching them to swim and letting them explore the water as babies and toddlers without flotation devices has ultimately made them far safer in the water than kids who have always been held by a parent and/or worn a floatie while swimming. I am all for safety items that reduce risk that do not impede learning actual skills.

Anyway, I was going to say, I bring my kids to baseball games even though there is a SLIGHT chance that they could be hit by a ball and suffer grave injury. It has happened. I would not choose to park my car in foul ball territory at a baseball game. Not because I value my car windshield more that my children, but because, my car windshield does not experience the fun of being “right up close” at a baseball game, it gets nothing positive out of the experience, and because my parked car can not get out of the way. I will teach my children to be aware of their surroundings and let them enjoy the game (even going to get some snacks at the concession stand) or I can say it is all too dangerous.

SKL – I think that helicopter parents view free range children as underparented. If they know us, they don’t truly believe that our children are neglected, are in mortal danger or should be taken away by CPS. They simply believe that we are not providing enough parenting, in terms of being there to take care of the child’s every need. Because that is how parenting is usually defined (keeping in mind that the term didn’t even exist until recently) – taking care of the child’s every need, handling every roadblock and alleviating every discomfort. If you view parenting in that fashion, I do underparent because I actually allow my child to take care of some of her own needs and deal with some discomfort.

If you define parenting in that way, helicopter parents overparent. The parent solves every problem. Parents must always be present. The child doesn’t make a single move without the parent being present to guide. But I guess you could look at it either way. They actually both overparent in their need to always be present and underparent in their refusal to teach their children basic survival skills. Personally, I think parenting is a stupid term. To me, it’s simply life with children.

I also really didn’t find the early years all that taxing. It would have been much more taxing to keep my child glued to me constantly, interact with her constantly, do everything for her and deal with all the safety devices. It is much easier to let a 2 year old dress herself in what she wants to wear than to fight to get her into clothes that you pick. I think helicopters have a warped view of lazy. When dealing with children, it appears that you are lazy unless the task is arduous and you are overwhelmed with work and responsibility. I’m not lazy; I just didn’t care that my 2 year olds’ clothes match enough to get into a battle of wills with her or dress her myself.

A wise woman once told me that just one letter changes “Mothering” to “Smothering”.

No, What you value, I got your point. I don’t agree with your point. A big difference. You can certainly view your child as a vulnerable little creature who cannot be trusted to watch a purse for a few seconds. I choose to realize that I am not always with my child. She is no more vulnerable in Walmart than in school, a place she goes without me 180 days a year (although it’s still very rare, far more kids have been molested by teachers than kidnapped by strangers from Walmart). Rather than view her as some inept, shrinking violet, I choose to empower her and teach her how to defend herself against the very remote possibility that something horrible will happen ANYTIME I’m not right by her side. As a result, I’d leave my purse with my child. I just won’t let my child take the purse anywhere where she would put it down and get distracted.

” Brittany Baxter’s attempted kidnapping in a suburban Atlanta Walmart came just three weeks after another seven year old girl was kidnapped from a playground ten feet from her apartment in a gated community, violently raped and bludgeoned to death with her own roller skate and compacted in a trash dumpster”

Just wanted to encourage everyone to give support to the mother (alsp a Free Range Parent) of this poor child in Atlanta who actually died in her own playground. Mrs. Rivera as a Free Range Parent deserves our support, especially when she is currently being harassed and blamed by the media. Talk about blaming the vicitm!

Little Jorlys Rivera was a Free Range Kid whose mother had a long history of practicing Free range parenting, and shockingly was harassed by social services for suspected “child neglect” months prior to Joelys unfortunate death.

Jorelys was only seven but she had years of practice going out on her own and knew how to navigate the streets in her neighbourhood. She had only been playing in th eplayground with her friends and was coming confidently back home to get some sodas fro her friends when she was quickly assaulted, then killed by a maintenance man in her apartment building.

Just one of the freak things no one could have predicted. He had no prior offences and we certainly can’t be expected to be with our kids constantly!

At least Jorlys lived a happy and unhampered life while she was alive and was given unrealistic restrictions or had her spirit crushed by overparenting!

Please show your support to her poor greiving mother, whose daughter was only going to and from the local playground in her neighbourhood.

Best wishes in your parenting efforts.

I hope my challenge post causes some readers to take pause – as it did in the case of my radical frk parenting mom.

I have been known to send my five-year-old daughter to the bathroom in a small restaurant by herself. (I have two kids, and it becomes a question of which of the two to leave alone–and the five-year-old is the elder.) Thus far, nothing ever happens. (And, yes, I am perfectly aware that the plural of anecdote is not data.)
She’s asked be when she’ll be old enough to go to the store by herself. I told her when she’s six. (The store is around the corner.)

P.S Rita a.k.a Oma, boy I want to have a coffee with you 🙂 ! You are so like the women we all grew up with, who left us to it unless we were actually bleeding (my poor exhausted mum once even left me to fall asleep in the paddling pool – the joys of having 3 under 3and a half!)!

Makes me nostalgic…..

And no, I’m not being sarcastic. My mum can be very proud of hands-off raising three relatively sane individuals who all contribute to society in various ways. Comes from pointing out what might be less than sensible things to do, but leaving us to decide – in many different settings, from preschool onwards.

And getting us/expecting us to do the shopping etc.

@Rita – what a shame! But thought you might live in the US…I’m in Wellington, New Zealand, so that coffee won’t be coming anytime soon!

Never mind, if you ever come down on one of those cruises or something, we’ll take you out. Cheers!

I happened to take my 5-year-olds to WalMart this evening. The winter blizzard navigating had whooshed away my memory of the abduction attempt, so I didn’t make the connection until later. Two separate employees commented at my kids (this never happens), and one or two others seemed to be paying more attention than usual. My kids were putzing around the same area I was in, within earshot, and when one guy saw them he said (gently), “where’s your mother” to get her to walk back in my direction. A little later another employee chided my kid for reaching for a high item. At the time I was a little irritated by the “where’s your mother” and I gave my kid heck for the chiding. But later, I figured, this is probably part of Wal-Mart’s reaction to the attempted abduction video. Send every kid back to his/her mother immediately. Can’t really blame them, but I hope this doesn’t last long.

With three children in tow, we were flying from Australia to Hong Kong to Paris to London and then to TelAviv, a fortnight after 9/11. My wife had a moment of nerves until I pointed out that the reaction to 9/11 will probably make it the safest time to fly (as far as terrorism goes). It was a very straightforward trip. Since then, the security of airports has become banal. Pat downs and chemical sniffers have become common in Australian airports in recent years. I doubt there is any evidence for their introduction although I am sure money is being made.

“A friend and I decided two decades ago that we were in the process of attempting to rear ‘life-boat’ kids, who read real books, knew the classics, spoke and wrote their native language fluently, and maybe a couple of others well enough to survive if stranded in a foreign land, and who valued liberty, and dignity, and integrity, and all those other character traits that have fallen into poor repute, and of course love and compassion, and who would carry those things into the next generation.”

In my community of parents (and it’s not just local parents, but folks all over the place who are especially focused on love and compassion and practical, doable ways to bring that into families, schools, and beyond), there is some disagreement at times about what raising kids with compassion looks like in terms of supervision and intervention. My own philosophy is that kids need to have experiences without us — and then to be able to rely on us to be accessible to them afterwards (and by “accessible” I mean physically and emotionally present) to offer support and empathy — in order to learn certain aspects of these values.

Just like the child who apparently “can’t cross the street” at age 8 because Mom says, “Every time I stand there with him, he’s oblivious to what’s going on around him enough to cross safely, so I have to be there” — the paradox is that kids cannot learn to be aware of their surroundings when there is someone to delegate responsibility to. Hence, if you are always there, you are actively preventing your child’s ability to make safety decisions. Huh. I want them to be safe so I stay by their side, and yet — they are not learning to be safe if I stand by their side.

So. Many in my “crowd” of compassion-lovers hover and intervene with kids and every time there is a sign of a scrap or disagreement about who can be on the slide, they have a big discussion with all the kids about what everyone feels and needs before the kids have had a chance to try at all to work it out for themselves. In my own home, it can be REALLY difficult to watch this kind of “conflict play” because it is often loud, physical, emotional, and frays my every nerve. But I don’t intervene (usually) because I don’t want to retard my kids’ abilities to reach compromise, make amends that are authentic, and learn from these self-concocted conflicts.

Apparently, according to childhood development researchers, conflicts among children are very important “play” during which learning about compromise, cooperation, and compassion takes place. (I’m not talking about assault or molestation by kids who are older and have a physical and mental advantage, I’m talking about kids scrapping where the playing field is relatively equal.)

So my observation is that some parents seem to believe that if their child is with them, or another “trusted” adult all the time, they will learn the skills required to thrive just by watching and imitating. And I suppose that does work in terms of learning by watching. But what about the “learning by doing” piece of it? If we intervene each time, even when kids have been able to observe how it’s done, well, how can they really do it? Do they issue a driver’s license to kids after 16 years of watching their parents drive?

Also, I’ve noticed that kids who have been supervised constantly up until, say, age 13 seem to go through either a phase of paralysis or enormous rebellion once they are given even a tiny bit of space unsupervised. This can be very dangerous indeed, and part of what triggers my need for safety. I want my kids to have experienced small bites of independence at young ages so that during adolescence, they’re not desperate to “prove” how “adult” they are by abusing forbidden substances or engaging in risky sexual behaviour… that sort of truly deadly stuff.

So thanks, Oma / Rita. I enjoy hearing your take on this stuff as someone who is conscious of the long-term goals and aspirations they have for their kids, not just the panic of protecting them from injury or death each day.

Cassandra, I work in the news media and did not see one single story that blamed what happened to Jorelys on her mother. The media treated Ms. Rivera with the respect, dignity and sympathy she deserved. She willingly spoke to us many times before and after her daughter was found and thanked us for our reporting on the extensive search for Jorelys even before the police took it seriously.
The sad part about her story is she worked the overnight shift in a chicken processing plant. She had to sleep during the day so there were ongoing issues with child care, no one meeting her school bus after school, etc, which is how Social Services got involved.
I’m a free range parent who gives my 7 and 5 year old plenty of independence but have seen in my job that the bad guys (known and strangers) prey on easy targets: kids who are not with their parents, whether they are in school, the playground, a store, camp, a park, etc. They have seen the Walmart video and we’ve also discussed what appropriate behavior is from adults they know and trust. I think part of being a free range parent is arming our kids with the knowledge they would need in case of potential harm.

@mollie – I’ve enjoyed reading your posts, striking that balance is no mean feat (although I keep coming back to wondering how we’ve come to see raising kids as such a complicated affair,it’s a relatively recent phenomenon, and since we humans have been on the planet for hundreds of millenia, if it were all that difficult we’d not have survived, I suspect our struggles may be a reflection of just how ‘easy’ in relative terms life has become, can’t help but think that mothers on the prairie a century or more ago were not quite so absorbed in these questions, lol.)

As for compassion, my observation is that there are all too many who confuse it with a sort of ‘sappy sentimentalism’ believing that if they ‘feel’ the right thing they are experiencing compassion. M. Scott Peck, in his book, “The Road Less Traveled” talks about love as a ‘doing’ rather than a feeling. What I understand him to mean is that to love is to do the hard thing even when we don’t much feel like it. I have to admit, in retrospect, that all too often I ‘did’ things for my kids less because it was best for them than because I didn’t want to have to endure the discomfort of watching them try and perhaps fail. That is neither loving, nor compasssionate. If I had it to do over again, I’d ask myself more often, “For whose benefit am I doing this.” I’d like to think that I got it right often enough not to have crippled them, since all three of mine seem to be going about the business of being adults with some grace, but I can see quite clearly that I missed the mark at times.

I urge you all please to rethink all of this.

We as parents are charged with the responsibility to care for & protect our children. Yes the media likes to stir up fear at times and exaggerate risk. But why on earth would anyone choose to expose their precious children to risk for no good reason?

How can anyone (Lenore & others) brush off this incident as a one off event that shouldn’t impact the way any of us lives our lives??

This guy wasn’t just a random “stoooopid” guy, some inept dummy criminal incapable of pulling off any crime – he just got out of prison – where he was for MANSLAUGHTER!

Are you seriously telling me that if this was your little girl who at age 7 had been snatched up and carried off by a criminal like this that it wouldn’t change anything you do? How do you think that child feels ? Why should she have to go through that? Yes kids need to learn to solve problems and learn to cope with disappointments – but they don’t need to be picked up by a criminal to learn this!

Yes the girl fought back and screamed which was great – her actions were probably what saved her life. Why ever do you as a parent put your child in a circumstance where they should have to be responsible for saving their own life??

There is no need for a 7 year old to know how to shop at Walmart – why not? They have you ! Like it or not that is your job – until they are old enough to need to learn to do it themselves.

In the mean time, if you have a need for excitement or you would like to prove to yourself that life is not as risky as the media always tell us ( it probably isn’t! ) test it out on yourself instead of your kids. Walk at night alone in the inner city, leave your car unlocked in a high crime neighborhood, go home with a stranger you meet at a bar – statistically you will probably be ok – or maybe not – but YOU take the risk – don’t make your kids take the risk for you!

Your JOB is to protect and care for your child.

And grow up – it really is “parenting” not “living with children” – yes you are the one who is supposed to be in charge.

Social services On your case? Most people never have any contact with social services. Social services is there to protect children from their biggest enemies – no not strangers – parents! Does this tell you something? If social services is contacting you to the point where you are becoming frustrated – they think YOU might be your own child’s worst enemy – your child’s biggest risk could be you!

Please grow up, take some responsibility, and look after your kids!

Get them swimming lessons , teach them to skateboard, ski, skate, horseback ride, camp , make dinner, bicycle ride etc but watch them for goodness sake!

It is a sad day when a big corporation like Walmart cares for your child’s safety more than you do! There is no value to a small child to be unsupervised in a huge store. People who prey on kids DO look for the easier prey – the young child who appears to be alone is very much more at risk than one who is clearly being watched by someone who cares about their welfare.

Why? Because out of the thousands of Walmarts in America and the millions of customers they serve, this is a very rare occurrence indeed. The odds are much higher every time your child gets in a car (even properly restrained) something bad will happen. You’re not going to keep your child out of cars, are you? And when do you decide they are old enough to be left alone in a store? When they can defend themselves and ask for help? Seems as if this 7 year old did a fine job! Some 40 year olds couldn’t do that.

Most of the “bad guys” for sexual abuse are stepfathers/mom’s boyfriends with biological relatives coming in second.

Most of the “bad guys” for physical abuse are the parents (with stepdad and mom’s boyfriend frequently playing a starring role in this as well).

If a child is going to be molested/abused by someone outside of the parents, it is most likely going to be a vulnerable child. Foster kids, kids with absentee parents, kids with refrigerator parents, children of alcoholics/drug addicts … kids who are craving meaningful attention from adults (or maybe just an adult male or female) like Jerry Sandusky’s victims. While it happens occasionally, a confident kid free ranging around town is a very unlikely victim. And Brittany is why. This kid fought back and won. Few want to get into that battle when there are much easier targets out there and I bet that the failed kidnapper is mentally challenged in some way.

Susan,

Nobody can be with their children all the time. Telling yourself that you’re never going to take your eyes off your child does not make her safe. Because you ARE going to take your eyes off of her. She needs to be equipped with her own sharp instincts and problem-solving abilities, which are learned / refined / kept sharp through practice.

Ever heard of the term “street smarts”? That term has been around a very long time. It is very apt. You get book smarts by reading books, but you get urban survival instincts by being “on the street” (without your mommy!). Street smarts have saved many a kid with both great and not-so-great parents.

People have commented that this fellow in Walmart was probably not very intelligent. Maybe not – but nonetheless he had successfully killed once before – having just been released from prison for manslaughter!

In the video he is large enough to easily scoop up the little girl, cover her mouth and try to carry her away. She fights and he quickly puts her down and leaves the store.

You don’t see any bystanders jumping in to help her. The little girls actions seem to be what causes him to release her.

Almost every parent teaches their children to scream fight and bite if they are ever in this kind of situation. It is not only the parents of free range kids that teach this technique . We all do , and good thing too it can save a life!

A more sophisticated criminal doesn’t even need to touch a child to lure them out of the store, even if you’ve already coached them not to believe the “lost puppy story”.

Kids are not little adults! Their brains, thinking ability and reasoning skills are still developing. A child is no match either physically or mentally for a skilled adult who wants to manipulate them.

Why take the chance? It’s not a big deal to watch your child.

Why take the chance? Because if you don’t, you end up with mollycoddled little wusses who can’t do a thing for themselves.

At what age, Susan, do you think it might be okay for a child to be in a store aisle by themselves?

It strikes me as profoundly irresponsible to keep your child by your side until they are teenagers or beyond. Where do they learn, for instance, basic real life maths, unless you allow them to do things like go and find the cheapest butter without you hovering over them.

In a country of 300 million people, 1 individual chose to target a store that has major security anyway, and attempted unsuccessfully to abduct one child. And you think that somehow justifies tying children even more firmly to their parents’ apron strings?

Sorry Susan, it’s you who needs to grow up. Myself, I will continue to try to raise grown-ups.

Susan, at some point your child has to learn to shop for themselves. At some point, your child has to learn to be alone and unattended. And that point has to happen BEFORE they grow up, BEFORE they “need” to do these things alone.

Children don’t learn to walk by being tied down until they are 10, they learn in stages and steps. The same thing applies to independence. They need practice in being independent so they can be adults.

(And to the commenter who suggests that we leave our kids alone with our purses – been there, done that. Didn’t lose the kid, didn’t lose the money. Of course I trust the nieces to watch a bag for a few minutes! They’re not stupid, after all.)

(I notice, of course, that Susan talks about “many countries” but doesn’t name them, and talks about other abductions but doesn’t mention the children’s names at all. I strongly suspect that if she had actual evidence of such things she would have said them for the emotive impact. Susan, a word to the wise: If you have a good argument, make it. Weak arguments make you look ignorant and foolish, no matter how many of them you have.)

Uly, I really wish it was true that any increase in child abduction cases were due to parent abductions. Check out uk.missingchildren.com . It’s true that there are (only) hundreds reported each year in the UK. In the US it is thousands per year with (only) a hundred or so actually killed each year.
Still if it’s your child …it matters!

Okay Susan, not to put words in your mouth or quote you out of context, but are you suggesting that this mother in WalMart was a negligent mother for not having her child velcroed to her hips? I sure hope not, because I sure don’t think she was negligent at all.

Heck, one time last year, at the lake, I was there with my 2 kids ages 2 & 4 at the time, and had JUST MET this one couple in their 20s. I needed to check & see if the gift shop or whatever had an air pump for inflating the raft. I could’ve taken the kids in with me, but it was quicker not to have to. I actually trusted & asked these people whom I had JUST MET if they could watch my 2 kids for 2 minutes while I went in there to see.

They did so, no problem.

In fact, a few moments later, I felt like going out into the lake some distance without having to tend to them or endanger them in deep water that was also rather far from shore. Granted, the lake wasn’t busy this day, me & my kids and this couple were just about the only ones there, still, I actually asked them if they would keep an eye on my kids & keep them from wandering off or into the water and just let them play in the sand and just intervene if they try & wander off. They agreed & i was probably 50 yards or so from shore, and for 15-20 minutes, while I trusted them to do that.

We all benefited. The 2 adults had a nice experience they weren’t expecting (they seemed to really enjoy doing that), my kids got to meet other people besides just me and to also learn about obeying other adults (in preparation for doing that with teachers later), and I got some much-needed freedom.

I’m not perfect, but I kind of think that type of parenting is a lot better than the “helicopter parenting others like to do. It’s like the character Jonathan Smith said in the 1st ever “Highway to Heaven” episode, when he remarked about how there were locks on the toolshed & that such wasn’t the case in times past, the person he was talking to said “times change, Mr Smith,” his reply: “no, PEOPLE changed–we stopped trusting each other.”

Amen.

LRH

Hi LRH,
No I definitely don’t blame the mom. I really feel badly for her because it was such a close call, and I imagine how she must feel .
Susan

Know what Susan? If we do what you suggest, and never, ever let our children out of our sight, and basically teach our children to live in fear? Then the bad guys win, Susan, even if they don’t
“snatch” our kids. So maybe if everyone would keep an eye out for everyone else, children and adults alike, we would ALL feel a little more comfortable giving our kids the freedom they need to grow and learn. Help our kids learn how to help themselves! If more folks did it, we would all be better off.

I couldn’t find a ‘contact me’ email or link so I’m leaving this here. Sorry if it’s inappropriate. I’m not sure if it’s really on point for the blog but here is an article on a way to help our kids in regards to sexual abuse, not by scaring them away with the whole ‘stranger danger’ foolishness, but by recognizing it usually is someone well known and adjusting how we talk to our kids in light o that. This topic is important to me (btw, it’s not my blog) and I just hope more parents can read and think about this rationally instead of freaking out and getting overprotective, so naturally I thought of this site!
http://www.evolutionaryparenting.com/?p=735

Maggie,
What you say is very true when applied to terrorists or organized crime, those who seek to control us by fear. We do need to act against that in the way you say. If we react by changing what we do they win.
Child molesters and child abducters are not organized. If we react by not protecting ourselves from them, they win. We leave our kids open & vulnerable to abuse by not taking action against them. For whatever reason there are more people with sexual issues, more sexual predators than before.

@LRH – Not to be repetitive (never let it be said I was repetitive, although my kids would try to tell you I am) but you’ve struck on what I think is the central issue, which is our desire to feel in control. My mother was 30 when I was born, a change of life baby (she was) her only sister was 15 years older. My grandmother had five chldren, three of whom died before adulthood, of measles and the inlfuenza epidemic. I’ve no doubt that my grandparents grieved deeply. And no doubt that no one could really say why Mama and her sister Frances survived when their brothers and sister did not. I also know that my grandmother was deeply religious and took comfort from that, accepting the idea that even if she didn’t understand why awful thngs happened, there was some greater meaning and she simply had to ‘soldier on.’ If one looks at child mortality rates over the past two centuries, or even the past fifty years, childhood is safer now than it has ever been, yet we are more apprehensive than my parents or grandparents by far.

As we have become ever more successful in beating back disease and nature’s depradations, at least here in the West, we become ever more convinced that it is our right to be safe and secure, that such is the nature of things, when all the evidence ought warn us that life includes danger, and we must continue to live nonetheless. So we become petulant when events intrude and force us to consider that we may not be as secure as we wish to believe, and then we look for those things that we can try to impose our will on to restore a sense of balance, and lo and behond, our children are the easiest place to do that. Try to impose your will and control on your boss, or your wife/husband, for that matter, or your best friend, and since we are responsible for raising our children we can try to control at least that much.

You say it’s all about odds, which is one way to frame it. In order to calculate odds, it is necessary to have all the data, and of course, that’s the problem, isn’t it, life doesn’t give us all the data on the end where we’re placing our bets.

My elder son and I had an agreement when he wnet to college, he’d live at home and care for his year old sister while I worked part-time, so she’d not have to be in ‘child care.’ and in his junior year he would move onto campus, and I would take financial responsibility for his education. The first semester was fine, but second semester he came home and said it was hard being a commuter, that he found it was a struggle to really participate in campus life, so wanted to move onto campus immediately.

I said of course he could, as long as he was willing to pay for his own education. He said he’d talked with his advisor and his advisor agreed that it was important for him to live on campus. I told him that if his advisor wanted to pay for his education that would be fine with me, too.

He then said, “But it’s not fair, I didn’t have all the information necessary to understand what it would mean when you and I made our agreement.’ I replied, “Welcome to real life.’

We never have all the information necessary to place our bets, and make our decisions, so we do the best we can, and then hope. There are costs to all our choices, I’ve tried to get for myself and for my kids, as they say, “The best bang for the buck.” Anyone who believes it’s possible to completely mitigate risk is, IMHO, playing a fool’s game.

Rita Right on.

Susan Is it worth it? You know what, sometimes it ISN’T worth it. I’m sorry, but besides wanting my child to learn some independence & confidence in themselves, I think my personal convenience matters–yes, even in a safety issue it STILL matters. This is not to say that I’m sloppy with safety, but I draw the line somewhere eventually too.

To wit: I put my kids in a car seat & buckle them up, but when shopping for car seats my priority WAS NOT on which one was the safest. I figure they’re all pretty safe & even when comparing the most safe one to the least safe one the gap was probably rather tiny. However, in terms of difficulty of usage, the most difficult ones to use were WAY more difficult than the easiest ones. Further, I’m going to be putting them in & out of that seat daily, perhaps several times. If it’s too difficult to mess with, I figure, I’m going to end up ditching it or not using it, or even grumpy. An easier-to-use one, no such issues would likely arise.

So yes, I traded in a tiny bit of safety for an awful lot of convenience.

In terms of the Walmart deal, perspective helps. Odds really are VERY VERY low that anything is going to happen to them. VERY low. Meanwhile perhaps it helps you a lot for them to be able to entertain themselves in a toy area or specific play area while you browse the section you need to browse.

To do this, as the mother in the Walmart did–I don’t see it as an unwise choice at all.

Safety is NOT everything, convenience to the parent IS relevant & not selfish for the parent to weigh in to such everyday decisions. That the child learns some independence, even better.

LRH

Uly,

What misquoted me as saying : “I don’t know anybody who took a long time to learn to act like an adult”

What I actually said: “You know something Uly I have never met an adult that was “shopping impaired” as a result of not being taught how to shop early enough by their parent. It’s not rocket science & doesn’t take years or even weeks to learn. Lol
Same as an adult who didn’t know how to be alone or unattended — never met one regardless of the parenting philosophy of their mom & dad.
I don’t think it’s really too likely to happen at all.”

Way different!

Susan, I am not sure in which countries child abduction rates are increasing. If you are referring to human trafficking, which usually originates in less developed nations, then you are referring to a real problem. However, the majority of children who are trafficked are sold by desperate parents or caregivers (at least some of whom probably think they are giving their children a better life), and women who are trafficked are often promised good jobs in foreign countries, then forced into prostitution.

Almost 0 children in any first world country are being abducted by strangers, and bugger-all of them in store aisles. I live in a first world country. Fortunately there is still a measure of sanity here regarding child safety. The last time, months ago, that a child was approached by a stranger (she was on her way to school) police simply asked parents to be sure their children walked to school in groups until they rounded the fellow up.

I take my hat off to Free Rangers in the US. I cannot imagine how you all cope from day to day, having to live among people with this level of paranoia. Kids unsafe in supermarket aisles? Just crazy. Really, really crazy.

“Same as an adult who didn’t know how to be alone or unattended — never met one regardless of the parenting philosophy of their mom & dad.”

Then you haven’t been looking too hard, Susan. I live in a college town for a major state university. I see 6,000 newly minted adults every August. Half of them have NO CLUE how to exist on their own. They have no idea how to do laundry. They don’t know how to cook a meal. And, yes, there are even some who have no clue how to grocery shop.

Those are the ones with minor problems. Not the ones getting their first taste of freedom and end up flunking out of school because those 8am classes are just too difficult to get up for after partying all night. Or the ones who fail their classes because nobody is there to make them do their homework. Or students who fail because they have to deal with college professors who don’t want to talk to mommy and daddy about their problems but want them to handle it themselves and they have no idea how.

And even they are the lucky ones. They’re not the ones who end up dead after a night of binge drinking. Or the ones who get raped because they didn’t know better than to get into a cab alone while falling down drunk (and, yes, my town has a cab driving rapist who has never been identified because all his coed victims have been too drunk to identify which cab they got in). They’re not the ones gang raped at the frat party. They’re not the ones who have unprotected sex while drunk and end up with an STD or pregnant. They’re not the ones who end up in jail for vehicular homicide after driving home drunk. They’re not the ones who end up dead doing some stupid act while drunk.

Kids are not kidnapped from Walmart every year. These things are happening on every college campus in the US every year (well, the raping cab driver may be unique to my town). They happen because parents believe exactly like you – that they can molly-coddle their kids, give them no responsibility, no independence, no opportunity to deal with the world, thrust them out at 18 and they’ll be okay because, afterall, it doesn’t take much to learn how to be an adult.

Other stats – 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 10 boys are sexually molested before adulthood. (USA )

LoL.

Hey, Donna, that happens here too. I lived in student accommodation three years ago. It is absolutely ridiculous how incredibly immature university students (legal adults) are. I, quite literally, had an evacuation alarm go off on a weekly basis for the entire year I lived there because so many ~18-year-olds had no idea how to cook on a regular basis without burning something so incredibly badly that the fire alarms were set off and couldn’t be cleared of smoke before they auto-called the fire department. They also had loud parties at ridiculous times on weeknights and during exams, etc. When I left at the end of the year, there were numerous reports of units badly damaged, never cleaned, mattresses soiled, etc. No responsibility. No respect for rental property. Very little ability to care for themselves.

A friend of mine still lives there. He tells me that evacuation alarms are down to once per fortnight.

@ Susan:

“ Why ever do you as a parent put your child in a circumstance where they should have to be responsible for saving their own life??

I have been responsible for performing actions to save my own life on a many-times-daily basis since childhood.

Every time I cross the road, my life is in danger. I save my own life by looking both ways and making good judgements about when to cross.

We’re not talking about leaving toddlers alone in supermarkets here. She was 7. You are right in thinking that children do not have the knowledge, experience, logic and mental capacity of an adult, but we’re not talking about the child having to do big, complex actions here. In order for a child to be safe, this basically summarises everything they need to do:

– Don’t leave the place your parent/carer expects you to be (in this case, don’t leave walmart)

– Do not go somewhere isolated, and do not allow anybody to take you to an isolated place. If somebody tries to get you to follow them, refuse as politely as possible, then tell parent or carer.

– If somebody tries to physically interfere with or restrain you, FIGHT. Kick, scream, bite, spit, scratch, punch, claw. Go for the eyes, face, throat and stomach. Go for the crotch if it’s a man. If you can grab an object and hit him, do so. If you’re not somewhere isolated, your abductor is going to have a really hard time explaining to anybody who asks why s/he is holding a savagely fighting and struggling child with their hand over the child’s mouth (if there isn’t a hand over the kid’s mouth, the kid will be screaming things like “HELP!” “KIDNAP!” “ABDUCTION!” “I’M BEING TAKEN!” “THIS ISN’T MY DAD!” etc.)

That’s pretty much all. This isn’t exactly filling out tax forms or negotiating a peace treaty. This isn’t deciding on a career path or college plan. There aren’t many nuances at all. There are a lot of things that young children ARE incapable of, but this is fairly basic and shouldn’t be beyond the abilities of a properly taught, neurotypical primary-schooler.

I’d also like to point out that an adult probably has similar chances of being assaulted, molested, raped, mugged or abducted while in walmart or whatever than a child does. Again, I refuse to submit to the idea that I – or anybody else – am expected to be able to be able to defend myself from attack if I am to be out in public alone (the inference being that children are too small, weak and gullible to defend themselves effectively, but adults can).

You’re saying that the rights and freedoms of both parent and child need to be restricted… because somebody ELSE may commit a criminal act to them. I don’t mind the idea of restricting freedoms to do acts that are inherently dangerous (seat belt laws, for example) – but going shopping is not an inherently dangerous act. Being a child and alone in a supermarket aisle is not an inherently dangerous act. Criminal people committing criminal acts are what make it “dangerous” – why, then is it the “potential victims” who are being punished for OTHER PEOPLE’S criminal behaviour? Make attempted/successful abduction carry the death penalty, or something.

I say this because, as a child I got a lot of that attitude. As an adult woman, I still get some of that attitude – that I’m vulnerable, might be attacked and need protection. It’s interesting that you mentioned walking alone at night – for the last three years I’ve been walking through Brisbane City’s CBD at points between 10pm and… well, dawn, on a fairly frequent basis. I’ve never been assaulted or raped, despite my mother’s and aunt’s assurance that I will be (and worse, that it’s an “open invitation”). I do so because the areas that I walk in are not full of criminals, homeless people, drunken yobbos, graffiti or rapists. It’s not a dangerous or high-crime area, and there are lots of people around. There are suburbs of Sydney that are dangerous to go into if you happen to be of the wrong race. I would not walk alone in them… well, ever. Especially not at night. It’s a judgement call. I’m sure that the mother here made a judgement call relating the the amount of relevant criminal activity in the area. (And no, auntie, the fact that one woman got murdered in a different part of the city fifty years ago is not relevant crime statistics!)

@ Susan _ I clicked on YOUR link here it is:

The U.S. Department of Justice reports

* 797,500 children (younger than 18) were reported missing in a one-year period of time studied resulting in an average of 2,185 children being reported missing each day.
* 203,900 children were the victims of family abductions.
* 58,200 children were the victims of non-family abductions.
* 115 children were the victims of “stereotypical” kidnapping. (These crimes involve someone the child does not know or someone of slight acquaintance, who holds the child overnight, transports the child 50 miles or more, kills the child, demands ransom, or intends to keep the child permanently.)

It does say 58,200 are non family abductions, but it also says 115 are “stereotypical” (ie Walmart attempt)….of course the 115 matter, but using inflated numbers does not make your point….

This also includes children under 18.

“You don’t see any bystanders jumping in to help her. The little girls actions seem to be what causes him to release her.”

They don’t have to jump in to help her. The very fact that the man knows that other people exist and are in range who do not want to harm the child, does the trick. Because as soon as she makes noise, he knows he’s finished. That’s the point.

The point isn’t whether the child can identify the good and bad people. The point is that there’s about a 1 in 10 million chance that any given person in a Walmart wants to harm a child. If there’s even one OTHER person in the Walmart, there are witnesses, hence a measure of safety. And the potential bad guy knows that if there’s any other person there, there’s 9,999,999 in 10 million chance that the person is a threat to him if he’s seen.

Because even most people who aren’t all around great paragons are going to react if they see a kid screaming when a guy grabs them. Whether they rush in and grab the child is immaterial — the guy doesn’t even want to be SEEN doing his nefarious deeds. And even if he’s dumb/mentally challenged enough to do it anyway, human instinct will kick in when he hears the kid scream and sees several pairs of eyes turned his way.

That’s why it’s safe to let your seven year old child (not two year old) go fifty feet from you in the middle of a normal, busy store. It’s probably not so smart to let them wander a hundred yards across a deserted store at an off time of day. The chances of something happening are still pretty low, but at some point the balance tips from “no problem” to “not a very good idea.”

And Susan, please lose the idea that this has anything to do with how “hard” it is to keep your child close. No, it’s not that hard. It’s just *totally unnecessary* and in many ways (as have been pointed out here by several commenters) counter-productive.

And that also includes all the 12-17 year olds who went willingly with some slimeball they met online.

“Abduction” doesn’t only mean “grabbed and dragged.” It refers to any person who removes a child from proper custody without the parent’s consent and against the parent’s will. I’d really like to know the stats on how many children were removed by force from public places, because that’s the ONLY situation that’s relevant here.

Who are the non-family abductors? They are usually people who are already known to the child. Examples could include a neighbor, pool boy, snow removal person, apartment caretaker, bus driver, maintenance man etc etc.

This known person uses the fact that they are known to the child (and thus assumed “safe”) to their advantage. When they find the child unattended in a park , shopping mall, arena or other public place it becomes relatively easy to convince the child to come with them, usually without a fuss.

So it is true that strangers are usually less of a threat statistically. It’s the “known” person who happens across your child unattended in a public place that poses the greater risk.

And yes, they do deliberately watch for opportunities in such places!

LRH
You are right. You will probably not change.

But in the mean time expect to continue to get visits from social services and comments from other concerned parents who worry about the safety of your children even if you don’t.

Soon as in anything else, if people don’t voluntarily do what is best for their child it simply becomes legislated.

Susan, it’s a proven fact that when you drag your child around instead of putting her in charge of her own safety, she is less likely to pay attention to things that develop her survival skills.

Here’s an example from my own life. Usually when I go places with certain people, they drive and I’m the passenger. They know where they are going, and I’m in relaxed sightseer mode. I have been to certain places dozens of times, and then when I have to actually drive there, I am at a loss to remember the way. Being in charge of safely getting from point A to point B is completely different from being along for the ride. That is true of kids as well. My kids knew how to be safe in roads and parking lots by age 4, because I let them go away from my side (but still within earshot in case they acted foolishly). Likewise they are learning to get around safely in many situations.

There are times when any parent – helicopter or not – is going to lose track of their child momentarily. The child needs to have a clue what to do (and what not to do). And simply being told in words is not enough. We tell kids all kinds of things that they ignore. When they are in a real situation where their decisions matter, that’s when they learn how to solve problems.

I am committed to raising my children free-range, I want them to become confident, independent adults and I think that begins in childhood. I used the Walmart video to explain to my two oldest boys how brave that girl was, how she did exactly the right thing and how abductors are so frightened by discovery that they fear any noise or struggle a child will make. We also had a good chat about how an adult or child might try to lure them away. How to trust our instincts and to always look after each other.

However, I’m struggling within myself. I’m in the UK and we’ve had some VERY high-profile cases, I know I know I know they are the exception and I deplore how the media seizes on them with an unsavory glee but the fact remain that they DID happen and the miniscule chance of it happening is cold comfort when it is your child it’s happened to.

So I think over them and try and see the lesson in each case, to see how my child might have handled it differently. But I’m not sure they could, and it scares me. Why are such people out there? Why do we tolerate them in our society? It feels like I’m about to begin walking a minefield of what my head is telling me is the right thing to do (let them have their independence) and my heart is screaming (wrap them up in cotton wool and NEVER let them out of sight! Which I know is unrealistic, which is why I come on here, to give me the confidence and skills to do what is right for them).

Please forgive me for listing these, these are the cases that swim round and round in my head, and I feel I have no-where to put them. You will probably be unfamiliar with them as they are from the UK:

James Bulger – a 2 year old in a shopping centre with his mother walks a few feet away from her while she is paying for goods and is lured away by 2 TEN year old children. Is horrifically murdered.

Sophie Hook – 7 years old. Camping with older cousins in a relative’s garden. Is snatched from the tent, raped and murdered.

Sara Payne – 8 years old. Playing in fields with her 3 older siblings behind her grandparents house. Is separated from them for only moments, snatched and thrown into the back of a van. Raped and murdered.

Soham Murders – Two 10 year old girls go for a walk around their village. They are invited into the house of the school caretaker, whom they know, to stroke his dog. He murders them.

Doncaster Attacks – 9 and 10 year old boys are playing when two boys slightly older than them (10 and 11, brothers) ask if they want to see a dead fox. They go with them and are sexually abused and sadistically tortured. They were left for dead but the younger boy manages to find his way to a house. Thankfully they both survived.

There are more, obviously, but these are the ones which haunt me. I think because in each case, the children are doing what I would allow my child to do; to play, to camp in a garden, to be away from me in a shop (though not when they’re 2). I keep telling myself that the world is safer now, I love reading your site and having this confirmed, and then these stories pop up and whisper in my mind ‘but it happens, it happens, it could happen to your children’.

What can I do about this voice? How can I stop those stories, and more, from rattling around in my head? I’ve just realised how long this comment is – I’m sorry! – I’ll stop now!

Susan: But in the mean time expect to continue to get visits from social services and comments from other concerned parents who worry about the safety of your children even if you don’t.

I figure I will, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. All of them should mind their own business–in fact, dare I say it, if there is a legal means by which to do so, they should be made to mind their own business. People who can’t butt out of someone’s business and can’t resist meddling, frankly I think there should even be jail penalties for doing so.

LRH

S.Hall – my best advice is to step away from the media.

I didn’t hear about this Walmart thing until I read it here on Free Range Kids, and I have no intention of looking at the video. I didn’t hear about Whitney Houston’s death until someone mentioned it at work this morning. I actually don’t currently know who is the front runner for the Republican nomination. Somehow, I am still alive.

I deliberately make a point of not watching the news on tv, or reading national news, or listening to news radio. Once a week I take a look at my local news paper. If car thefts have been on the rise, I remind my husband to lock the damn car door for once. If an override is being voted on that affects my town and quality of life, I study up on it. Otherwise, I truly don’t see the need to know what goes on in every little town in the US and around the world 24/7. I’ll get caught up on the presidential election right before I vote (not that I suspect it will change my vote at all). If a major event happens, I’ll hear about it. But even the free range stuff that irritates me – I don’t need to go looking for reasons to be irritated.

The media is trying to manipulate me to feel a certain way, worry about certain things, and usually to spend my money on certain things. I refuse to play their game.

I’m going to respond by not ever watching the video.

Who, are these children if not the children of Free Range Parents?

The children were out in public locations away from their parents, with permission from their parents in almost all cases! They were almost all Free Range Kids. Very few were kids from “mollycoddling” parents.

You do realize that most abductions occur to teens and pre-teens, yes? Are you seriously suggesting that you will never, ever allow your child to do anything alone until he or she heads off to college?

I’d also like to know how Susan is so certain that those who were abducted from public places were free-range kids. Not that it matters much, if we’re talking about teens. Even a helicoptered teen gets to go out once in a while.

But, even if she’s right about them being FRK, that’s like saying the only smart approach to water safety is to stay far away from water, since obviously all drownings occur in water.

What she doesn’t mention is the statistics for how many FRK have gone their whole life without getting seriously hurt by strangers.

Also, Susan, what sort of children are you raising that you cannot trust your school aged child to be alone in a store aisle not far from you? Have you not taught your child to kick, yell, bite, go for the eyes etc And have you not taught them good store behaviours?

I would personally be embarassed if my seven year old could not be trusted to remain in a store aisle by herself – if her behaviour was that poor that I had to supervise her constantly (not including special needs children in this, of course).

Once again, bugger-all children are being abducted from store aisles. And under your ‘logic’ of fear, I should have supervised closely my 10 year old when we went blackberry picking yesterday afternon. Shock, horror, we were in the bush. Outside. And there were a few strangers biking past. And smiling and waving. And, because I was up to my neck in brambles, I could not always see my ‘baby’, who was up to her neck in her own brambles. Never mind Shorty, who nobody can ever see once she goes behind a bush, and who has to shout to let us know where she is.

Guess what? They DID NOT get abducted. Just like, in hundreds of shopping trips in which they have trotted off to get various grocery items, they have , shock horror, NOT been abducted.

Not sure why I am getting so hot under the collar about this particular post. Maybe it is because it is profoundly embarassing that we as a race are at a point in history where we are accusing parnts of neglect when they allow a child to do a simple activity, like stand in a jolly STORE AISLE.

Maybe it’s because I’m supposed to be reading about structural and cultural Marxism, as it relates to the classroom (which it doesn’t, in any practical way) and this is so much more interesting 🙂

North of 49 – good on you! And, statistics being what they are, I bet you never do have anyone try to take your kids.

An American friend was horrified at the way I let my kids, aged between 5 and 10 at the time, go on long walks together with friends in a group without any adult supervision. “But what if they get kidnapped?”

To begin with, what is so special (love them as I do) about my children that some practically non’existant kidnapper would want to target them? And also, as I would add, again to her horror, any kidnapper/pedophile yada yada who wants to try to abduct 5 or 6 kids at once is welcome to them! And, as a teacher used to dealing with groups of unruly kids, I bet he never makes that same mistake again!

Hineata: “Not sure why I am getting so hot under the collar about this particular post. Maybe it is because it is profoundly embarassing that we as a race are at a point in history where we are accusing parnts of neglect when they allow a child to do a simple activity, like stand in a jolly STORE AISLE.

Maybe it’s because I’m supposed to be reading about structural and cultural Marxism, as it relates to the classroom (which it doesn’t, in any practical way) and this is so much more interesting.”

I am so with you on all of this. Except for the Marx thing. Mine is more on the capitalistic side.

How insulting to our second-graders, seriously.

This makes me wonder … how many of the helicopter parent horror stories make it seem easy to grab a kid from WalMart? Did the urban legends encourage this guy?

The recent Walmart abduction attempt would not fall into the “stereotypical kidnapping” number of 115 because it did not involve removing the child from the scene 50 miles or more, being taken overnight, held for random or killed.

Please excuse my spelling – I have an auto correct gone wild and I am missing some of the typos.

And also, as I was probably not making clear above, I am sure the bulk of the one hour ‘abductions’ had nothing to do with molestation and everything to do with miscommunication and/or wilful behaviour. In other words, they were not abductions at all.

Anecdotally, very very few people are molested by strangers. They are molested, as I believe you have said yourself somewhere above, by people they know. Who have usually not ‘abducted’ them at the time of molestation.

@susan said, Why ever do you as a parent put your child in a circumstance where they should have to be responsible for saving their own life? (snip) “Your JOB is to protect and care for your child. “ No. Your JOB is to teach your child how to survive the risks of their environment. Encourage them to learn how to evaluate risks. Learn their limits by crashing into them when they are small and the damage is less.

I roamed, with a pack of other semi-feral children, over a large area of farms, creek bottoms, and wilderness. Before I was allowed to join the pack my dad made sure I knew how to tell bulls from cows, what to do if I saw a bear, what was safe to eat, how to survive for a short time on my own, how to not start a forest fire, how to treat the expected injuries, and how to find my way home from anywhere I might find myself.

(We had no traffic awareness … my mom put us on leashes when we went to the closest “city” to shop because we saw so little traffic that we would be dead before we learned anything)

Walk at night alone in the inner city, leave your car unlocked in a high crime neighborhood, go home with a stranger you meet at a bar No thanks. You see, learning to evaluate risks and to avoid ludicrously high risk situations is what free-range personhood is about.

“This guy wasn’t just a random “stoooopid” guy, some inept dummy criminal incapable of pulling off any crime — he just got out of prison — where he was for MANSLAUGHTER!” He was jailed for it, so obviously he didn’t pull it off very well. Manslaughter can be anything from a drunken bar brawl to a gunshot in an argument.

“Are you seriously telling me that if this was your little girl who at age 7 had been snatched up and carried off by a criminal like this that it wouldn’t change anything you do? How do you think that child feels ? ” I saw her interview. She feels pretty proud of taking care of herself. She says she was scared but she learned that fear is not fatal.

In the early 80s when my eldest niece was about 4 or 5 she was playing “fashion show” in the suburban SoCal front yard with a younger friend. A stereotypical abduction attempt happened: man stopped his car, grabbed the younger girl and tried to carry her back to his car.

This was post Adam Walsh: Her parents had had a few chats with her about the remote possibility that someone might try to take her away, and told her that an all-out defense was the thing to do.

My niece went Viking berserker on him, getting between him and his car, screaming and beating him on the legs with the nail-studded scrap of construction debris they had been using for the runway. She was yelling at her friend to “kick him, bite him, scratch him, poke his eyes out” (and the girl was doing her best to do all that).

Hearing the commotion, anyone who was within earshot came running – my sister said her daughter was “swinging a 2×4 at his legs like Hank Aaron going for a home run” and screaming like a banshee. The other girl was screaming, hammering with her heels, clawing at his face and biting any body part within reach.

The would-be abductor dropped his target and managed to get into his car while the two girls bolted for the adults who were running towards them … the adults got a partial license plate and a decent description. He was picked up a while later when he went to have the wounds treated.

My niece’s regrets when talking to the cops were that the 2×4 didn’t have “better nails” (more or longer or both?) and that she was too short to hit him in the head.

************
Which sort of child would you want to raise … one that can’t make it without you or one that can?

@susan said In the video he is large enough to easily scoop up the little girl, cover her mouth and try to carry her away. She fights and he quickly puts her down and leaves the store.
You don’t see any bystanders jumping in to help her. The little girls actions seem to be what causes him to release her.

Not in that camera’s range … for all we know, there was a mob of enraged 5 year olds roaring at him from all over the toy department, ready to chew him off at the knees. Or one or more “concerned citizens”. I know I would have blocked his exit with whatever it took, even if it meant taking some damage. I’ve intervened in assaults before and I’ll do it again, even if I have to whap them with my cane and beat them into submission with my walker.

@susan also saidThere are about 58,000 child abductions cases in the USA every year where the perpetrator is not a family member. Who, are these children if not the children of Free Range Parents? Well, if you had read the docs linked from your link: http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_nonfamily.pdf it defines “nonfamily
abduction” to include all nonfamily perpetrators (friends and acquaintances as well as strangers) and crimes involving lesser amounts of forced movement or detention of minors in addition to the more serious crimes.

A 17 year old guy grabbing his 16 year old ex-girlfriend and shoving her into his car to force her to talk to him is an “abduction”.

hineata … Scr*w the kidnappers!!! I’d worry about bears. We always kept a sharp eye out for bears and especially cubs, because every cub had a momma bear nearby.

Tso Dhu Nimh or is it Pseudomyn lol

About the video – someone commented that it’s probably safe to leave your child unattended in any store due to the presence of so many other shoppers who could protect your child if you are not there.

My point is that in this case, it was entirely the little 7 year old girls actions that saved her. Although there were many other shoppers they actually did nothing to intervene. ( although they acted as witnesses later). The fellow who has killed before, easily left the store with no one trying to stop him. There were no big heroes there that day except the little girl.

He was found later due to surveillance cameras both within and outside the store which allowed police to ID car & license plates.

My point was dont count on other people to help keep your child safe. Other people aren’t really all that keen on looking after your child for you – especially when you won’t even do it yourself!

“The fellow who has killed before, easily left the store with no one trying to stop him.” Because he was a young man running out of the store with NO CHILD, no shopping cart, no boxes … he’s just a guy in a hurry.

@Susan

What? I don’t think any free range parents have said “this guy did nothing wrong”…I think they have said the little girl did everything right and HER PARENTS did nothing wrong.

Glad we agree on that, Susan.

@Tsu Do Nimh – fortunately, though boringly, we have no bears to worry about….There was a lion once who escaped from the Wellington Zoo, before I was born, but that’s it for dangerous beasts.

Except cows with calves, of course. But none of them there yesterday, either. We live boring lives, LOL!

Embarrassed to say I have never heard of Adam Walsh. I’ll have to google it as I am not sure what you r all talking about when u mention him.

“Well, that, plus the fact that it wasn’t an abduction and nobody was hurt at all.
Yep, you’re right, a non-incident doesn’t make the statistics of incidents.”

I didn’t say he did nothing wrong. I said he didn’t abduct the child. That’s why it’s called an “ATTEMPTED” abduction. Therefore, it doesn’t make the abduction stats.

“Forced movement” does not in anyway indicate a gun or other weapon. Nor need it even be physical force. Coercion is force under the law. Further, the “force” can be inferred from other facts. He’s an adult; she’s a child; must be coercion even if adult means 18 and child means 16. And the statistics are based on law enforcement who are more likely to believe mama when she says that her baby would never break the rules and go with boyfriend even though girl says she went willingly. Or girl lies because she doesn’t want to get in trouble without thinking of boy who is now royally screwed.

The intent of such statistics is usually to make the numbers as high as possible. So this may well include arrests never validated. It may include people like my client who was charged with kidnapping a child (and mother) at gunpoint only to very quickly be proven completely innocent by recorded phone call.

I’ve yet to have a single stranger abduction case in court. I’ve had lots of older boyfriend/younger girlfriend cases. A few lesbian cases where religious mama claims her precious baby must have been kidnapped because she is not gay. A few kids lured by men on the Internet. Some domestic violence cases involving abduction elements (yes happens to teens). And many oddball cases that don’t fit any category but do involve some kind of abduction/false imprisonment. Either I work in the safest place in the US or these 58,000 cases are something else. I’ll default to my own experiences rather than some number that I have no idea where it came from.

Embarrassed to say I have never heard of Adam Walsh. I’ll have to google it as I am not sure what you r all talking about when u mention him.

Oh, god, Adam Walsh. He was this kid who was abducted from a mall 30 years ago at the age of 6 or 7, and subsequently murdered.

He’s a statistical anomaly in all ways – rarer age range for abductions, rarer gender, and murdered by a stranger. It doesn’t happen very often.

Still, every single time something like this happens (or, more frequently, doesn’t happen even though a kid was left alone) people go “Remember Adam Walsh???” to which I have to say “No. I don’t. Poor kid died before I was even born.”

Which kinda proves the point, if you ask me. If they can’t even come up with a more recent case (I actually can, and I’m on the other side!) to bolster their argument, how good an argument can it POSSIBLY be?

Although most Free Range Parents have stated they feel this guy did nothing wrong, the police disagree and charged him with attempted kidnapping.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Do you not realize that this is a recorded conversation? WE CAN READ THE PREVIOUS COMMENTS! What, exactly, can you gain by lying about what we’ve actually said? Let’s just scroll back up and check – oh, hey, either you’re lying or you’re absolutely delusional.

Well Uly, I suppose it was actually the sense I got from reading the comments which minimize the event and the danger that the man posed that gave me that feeling.

Comments scoffing at the fact that the guy was a killer already – oh well he could have got that in a bar room brawl, oh he can’t be that dangerous cause he was caught and jailed for the killing, oh he is so dumb to think you can even take a child from Walmart , he deserves a Darwin award.

And comments saying it wasn’t really an abduction , it was a Non abduction. It was a non event .

It’s those sorts of comments that made me feel most posters didn’t see the act as being a big deal, the man as doing much of anything wrong etc.

But it’s true it’s just my impression

Yeah, just from person experience here, it seems like the free range type parents are usually a lot more a long the lines of ‘where’s a bat, I’ll kill ’em’ when someone does do something bad to a kid, then helicopter parents. What this guy did was BAD. He deserves to be used as a pinata. That it’s ‘wrong’ for someone to take advantage of a kid is such an automatic that I expect most on here felt it was about as needed to mention as two scientists would pause in a discussion on the corona to remind each other the sun is the closest star to earth.

Oh for pete’s sake Susan, let it go. You parent your kids the way you want to, and let us parent the way we want to. But we’d certainly appreciate you NOT calling CPS “for the safety of the children” if you see a child one aisle over from his/her parents at the Walmart.

You need to make it clear , or the blog owner should, that only comments in support of Free Range Parenting are encouraged.

Thank you, Jespren. I almost said previously that it takes a pretty low opinion of people to assume that they literally mean that an attempted abduction is no big deal, but I held back. But you’re right. It’s a given that normal people *don’t* mean that.

Speaking of ‘safe activities’…I was riding my pony when I was about 6 or 7, I was a profiecent rider and it was a small shetland, no problems right? Bratty little pony decided he wanted to slip under a wire fence and run into a separate field. Clothes-lined me right at the neck, swept me off his back. Hit so hard wrapped around my neck twice and my ankle and wrist once each. When my mom saw the horse come around without me she rushed back and found me hanging (litterally) a couple feet off the ground. Had scars around my neck for years. And was back on the pony the next day. And still love riding horses.

Donna, seriously I am not sure where you get off lumping parents into categories. Why cant we not discuss the topic of free range parenting without making it so personal, and forcing people into one category or another.

My kids play sports, ski, bicycle, snowboard, fish, and sail. They have traveled all over the world. My oldest (14) travels alone by plane to visit friends & cousins more than 3000 miles away. And yes my kids know the difference between a cow and a bull too!

There have been 2 home invasions ony street within 2 blocks of our house. They were both drug related invasions of 2 different drug house on our street. In only one were there serious injuries. Five blocks away from my children’s school a man was murdered last month. He was involved in helping people on drugs. He was killed at home by confused drug addicts. His house is 5 blocks away from my kids school on a strip where prostitutes work, and sometimes people are dealing drugs.

I drive my kids to school and pick them up. Most parents do. Parents whose kids walk to school walk with them.

We don’t worry about our kids because we are with them.

While it is true that home invasions and murders in our area involving drug trafficking and prostitution do not DIRECTLY endanger my kids, I prefer to accompany them to school and back and even to local parks in the area until they are older ( my teen walks). So does almost every other parent. (possibly all of them)

I don’t think I am being paranoid. I wouldn’t characterize myself as either a helicopter or free range parent.

You speak as though anyone who doesn’t frequently post on this blog or call themselves a free range parent is automatically someone whose children are never allowed out of the house.

Susan, if someone is inside their home, high on drugs, shooting people, one of their bullets could TOTALLY go through a house window and right into your car, wounding or killing you or your children.

You should probably invest in bullet-proof jackets for everyone to wear when outside of your home.

I actually haven’t seen the video, but enjoyed the post. My family is actually one of those rarities that got on a plane within a week following 9/11. But I have to be honest, we debated and thought hard. But you are so right that you can’t live your life in fear of the slight chance that something bad might happen. Enjoyed reading!

Did anyone actually read my whole post? With the exception of one person it seems like everyone just latched onto one small detail.

By your sarcastic comments I am getting the impression that you think it’s wrong for me to drive.

Are you all saying if you lived exactly where I do (please read above for description) that you would definitely have your kids walk? Then say so. I’m interested in hearing what you would do.

Are you all saying if you lived exactly where I do (please read above for description) that you would definitely have your kids walk ALONE. Then say so.

I’m interested in hearing what you would do.

In your situation in your neighborhood, it may well be the best option to drive. You’ve weighed the risks and decided that the safest thing for you and your family is to drive your kids to and from school.

And that’s fine.

But the mother of the girl in Wal-Mart also weighed the risks and decided that her child being in the toy aisle of a store without her was not a big deal. A rare situation happened and there was an attempted abduction. But I think most of us here would agree that she didn’t take some big, crazy risk assuming that her 7-year-old would be fine for a little while looking at toys while she went to another part of the store.

If there was a shooting in your neighborhood and one of your kids got hit while driving, how would you like it if someone said to you, “Susan, you mean you didn’t put those kids in bullet proof jackets when you KNEW how dangerous your neighborhood was? That seems like a foolish risk you took.” ? You would probably retort that a stray bullet going through your car was a one-in-a-million risk that you didn’t think would ever happen. And you’d be right. It is a longshot.

Just like a kid being abducted from Wal-Mart is a longshot.

Yep, Susan,it’s a big leap from drive-by (or in situ) shootings to danger in the aisles at a store. A big, big leap.

Unless, of course, your neighbourhood Walmart is one that crims and druggies regularly drive their cars through. In the Antipodes car danger in stores tends to be the province of elderly people who forget to put the handbrake on, but maybe things are more advanced in your neighbourhood.

Maybe I would drive my kids to school in your neighbourhood, maybe not. Given the height at which bullets fired by a human being standing on the ground shooting, or firing from a car, would be expected to travel, I would have thought a bus would be the safer option. They’re higher off the ground. And if you’ve got thousands living in your neighbourhood, you must have some kind of bus system.

Susan,
You have ventured out onto the fringe of the internet! Come back girl, these ppl are nuttier than fruitcakes.
Although I must say having just stumbled upon this, I find it a total hoot.
Especially the one where the the little kid climbs too far up a tree and the mom makes them stay up there all day to learn a lesson! Hah I wouldn’t do that to a cat!
You can’t make this kind of stuff up.
If they are that way to their own kids do you expect they will be welcoming or friendly?
Walk away there’s still time to get out.
LMFAO

I never knew my parents were “fringe.” Can’t wait to tell them.

I wouldn’t do that to a cat!

You’d chase your cat up a tree? Seriously? I hope you don’t injure yourself going someplace that can’t support your weight.

Had a kitten end up on my roof just a month ago. Still have NO earthly idea how she did that. Hell, no, I didn’t chase her down from there. I don’t really want to die for my cats.

And yes, if my niece climbed up in a tree and wasn’t sure how to get down, I wouldn’t go up after her. She weighs less than I do. Branches that support her weight will not support mine. If she got up there, there must be a path down. She can damn well find it on her own, or else she can stop climbing so high. (Since implementing this policy, the nieces have stopped climbing higher than they feel safe. This is MUCH safer than having them think somebody will always rescue them.)

Did anyone actually read my whole post? With the exception of one person it seems like everyone just latched onto one small detail.

At least none of us made anything up and attributed it to you.

By your sarcastic comments I am getting the impression that you think it’s wrong for me to drive.

I do actually think it’s wrong for you to drive! ^.^

I certainly think it’s hypocritical of you to act as though this makes you a good parent when driving is less safe than most other activities.

Are you all saying if you lived exactly where I do (please read above for description) that you would definitely have your kids walk? Then say so. I’m interested in hearing what you would do.

As I can’t drive, and don’t have the money for a car – yes, yes I would.

However, here’s the thing. You and I and everybody here knows that you live in a less-than-average neighborhood when it comes to safety. For you to insist that we should all follow YOUR safety precautions, which are appropriate for YOUR neighborhood and family, with OUR neighborhoods and families – well, that’s just silly.

People in California run earthquake drills. Why? Because earthquakes are common there. People in the midwest have tornado drills, because they get tornadoes instead. People in NYC don’t do either, because that’d be an absolute waste of time and money. We don’t have earthquakes, and tornadoes are a real rarity.

That doesn’t mean it’s wrong for people elsewhere to practice for the problems that are likely to affect them, but it does mean it’s wrong for them to judge us for NOT doing these things.

Are you all saying if you lived exactly where I do (please read above for description) that you would definitely have your kids walk ALONE. Then say so.

Is your presence really going to help in the instance of a sudden drive-by shooting? Is it really going to make a difference if some addled addicts break into your home while the family is inside? Are hardened criminals really more reluctant to try something when a random mom shows up?

I mean, here’s the thing I don’t get. I really don’t get, that is. You can help prevent some tragedies. Sure, that’s the truth. But is just being there really such a heal-all?

Boohiney = behind?

I was a tree climber until my advancing maturity made it a somewhat risky enterprise, my kids all are/were, too. My daughter especially was constantly scaling most anything that didn’t move faster than she and was taller, so I’ve been following the comment thread about climbing with a smile. I have, on my fridge, one of my two favorite photos of her (the other is with her younger brother at the ages of 6 and 3, covered from head to toe in mud) she is 7 years old at the time, and is in a tree in our yard, perhaps 30 feet from the ground, give or take a bit. She had no trouble at all getting herself back down, nor in exercising good judgment as to when she’d reached the point that the branches weren’t really safe to support her weight. The limit was that she wasn’t tall enough to reach the bottom branch to start the climb. We solved that by putting a ladder next to the tree (only when parents were present.)

I put all three of my kids on Crawligators:

http://daddytypes.com/2007/05/18/i_have_one_word_for_you_crawligators.php

at two months. all crawled free by five, daugther walked at 7 months, sons around 7.5 – 8, so they were all mobile and able to explore their worlds early, I’d guess that increased their sense of mastery and willingness to climb. We moved into a new home when my daughter was 11 months. One could walk from the kitchen through the office into the living room into the dining room and back into the kitchen. I was unpacking, she playing in the living room, I took something into the office when I came back into the l.r. she was gone, so I walked around the circuit looking to see what she was up to, two trips, no daughter. Heard a noise, looked up, she had scaled the exterior of the staircase by holding the balusters and stepping with her tiny feet on the outer edge of the steps, until her head hit the ceiling. I was grateful the couch was against that wall, but she came down on her own once she got bored with the view from up there.

Diane S. said

” Better let your kids grow their street-smarts now, before they get taken for a ride (a la mafia with cement shoes)”

Diane, how DARE you wish something like that on my children or anyone elses for that matter!

Susan

Airfare, even overseas with unaccompanied minor status, comes in at under $800 round trip. I just checked prices now from NY to London because that was what Google came up with under autosuggest.

$800 is no small amount of cash, of course – but neither is it enough to move from a cheap apartment to a more expensive one, not for very long. Even poor people deserve to be able to see family or go on school trips (if your school has overseas trips, which some do). Scrimping and saving for a year can net you enough for a cheap ticket overseas and back, even if it can’t get you enough to move.

I’ve met very few people who live in high crime areas – and I know a lot of people who live in high crime areas – who have “travelled all over the world.” Most I know have never been on a plane. And not single one of them skis, snowboards or sails. I suppose Susan could be the rarity, but I’m calling bullshit on a family living in a drug and prostitute infested neighborhood who has money to ski, snowboard, sail and extensively travel overseas. And a school in a drug and prostitute infested neighborhood doesn’t have class trips involving skis or international travel.

Plane ticket, not plant ticket.

SKL,
I have neglected toddlers in my basement??? What? My basement is unfinished and I don’t normally take toddlers down there.

As a break from all the drama, I thought people might be interested in the op-ed on this topic that appeared in my local paper today. I wonder if this guy knows about FRK?

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial-page/from-our-readers/another-voice/article733834.ece

SKL said

“Just the way you twist other people’s words so glibly makes me disbelieve yours.”

Really?? Twisting other peoples words seems to be fairly common on this blog.

I mention there have been home invasions on my street, a murder near my childrens school and drug dealers and prostitutes in my neighborhood —- and suddenly my neighborhood is “drug infested” and there are guns everywhere! Several posters are telling me I should worry about getting shot in my car!

Whether this is twisting my words or just vivid imaginations on the part of other posters or just plain nastiness I don’t really know .

Yes, Susan, if what you say is true, your neighborhood is drug-infested. Sorry to break it to you.

I didn’t mention guns, but you did say something about people breaking into houses and murdering multiple people inside, so naturally people assumed guns were involved. As if there is a drug-infested US neigborhood that is free of guns? Pray tell, if you live in such a place.

Have some compassion. We don’t all live in picture perfect neighborhoods.

People in all types of neighborhoods have guns including affluent neighborhoods and poorer ones.

My neighborhood does have a lot of home invasions, drug addicts, drug dealers and prostitutes. People who are on drugs do things they wouldn’t normally do. Because of that there is some added danger.

I am not trying to make you think I live in a really bad or really good neighborhood.

The only reason i mentioned any details about where i live was a reaction against so many posters about how wrong it is to drive your child to school or not let them walk alone. lBecause I and others in my neighborhood drive our kids or walk with them to parks and schools doesn’t make them overprotected children who have no street smarts and never go outside, and are doomed to be helpless adults.

You mIght be interested in this . It’s a link to another successful escape story by a very brave and quick thinking stranger abducted child. This time in Colorado.

They also include excellent tips to share with kids.
http://m.bing.com/videos/watch?v=5e67b9c2-fc9e-4d9f-87b5-5c8af76345ea&mid=10006

Uly, she said her children have “traveled all over the world.” That is not an $800 plant ticket.

True, but for all I know (and I’m aware I’m being generous, but I spent the LAST week being a total witch, so bear with me in my nice stage) he’s, like, part of a youth orchestra and it’s all subsidized or something.

I’m not saying it’s very probable, but it’s at least not completely implausible.

It’s also possible that various relations are willing to pay for him to come visit, but not for Mom to move to a better neighborhood. That does strike me as probable, actually.

this is wonderfully penned!

@ S Hall I do not about my kids. I am making decisions that are appropriate for the place they live their ages and their own unique set of skills and abilities.
I have never said I am with them every second. I am not.
Why you would ever assume that I or other parents who are not “free range parents” do so is beyond me.
Just because I choose to drive my kids to school or walk with them , and I would not lose sight of them in our particular local Walmart doesn’t really mean anything.

Diane S

And yes your post below IS particularly offensive being directed at my kids. Don’t try to weasel out of it!

Diane S. said

” Better let your kids grow their street-smarts now, before they get taken for a ride (a la mafia with cement shoes)”

Diane, how DARE you wish something like that on my children or anyone elses for that matter!

I’ve never seen this blog before. I too am a Mother who has been concerned that my children should not grow up “under supervision” at all times, and that they would learn the needed small steps towards a childhood full of independence. What I don’t see in the comments here tho is ANY acknowledgement that your child’s INDIVIDUAL personality is an extremely important factor as well.
I found out through several bad experiences with strangers, when my son and daughter were still of elementary school age, that my daughter would always carry through with what she had been taught about how to handle strangers. Although both my children are of completely normal intelligence, my son just never seemed to be able to remember what he had (many times over) been taught.
My daughter was approached twice in a totally inappropriate manner and both times immediately ran for help to an appropriately safe adult. My son was approached by a total stranger, who pulled up in an old car when my son was playing in our front yard. He made no attempt to get away. Luckily I came out to the front just then & the stranger jumped in their car & took off with tires squealing. We thoroughly reviewed, on a regular basis, all our safety procedures. Sure enough, some time later at a large family wedding, my son went off with a total stranger, completely leaving the party. This second time our daughter thankfully came running to say what had happened. We caught up with them. It turned out to be a neighbor of the wedding party, who had told my son he would show him some ducks in a river near by. A couple of years later this neighbor of my cousins was arrested for pedophilia.
It simply is not good enough to just teach your children how to be independent. In doing so you also have to consider the individual personality of your child.

Sofia ,
You bring up such an excellent point!

It reminds me of the documentaries you occasionally see on TV on child abduction.

They first ask parents of children playing in a park if they think an adult could talk their child into leaving the park with them. The parents all say no, they have taught their children not to do that and not to fall for stories a predator might use such as “please come help me find my lost puppy” .

Then you (and the parents from a hidden video camera) as the adult successfully talks almost every single child into leaving the park!

The parents are understandably shocked and dismayed.

Clearly not every neighbour, sports coach, scout leader or stranger that a child meets is a predator. But the actual predators are often masters at manipulation.

And like you said the personality of the child has a big impact on how they will react, even if they have been taught how to keep themselves safe.

Btw both of your children sound like they are cool smart wonderful children 🙂

Susan. YOU ARE NUTS. And do not take this with a grain of salt. I don’t see how you even remotely get “threatening your children” out of it. Keep your paranoia to yourself, don’t drag me into your spider web of weirdness. And if you cannot laugh at life, your life must be pitiful.

@Hinaeta – coyotes here are the ones bringing illegals across the border for money – often just dumping them various places in the desert once they get them across the border. The firefight was between gunmen in two vehicles speeding down 59 in Houston a while back. There was some arguement I guess over who got the illegals and their money. And yes, we have coyotes (the regular kind) here too, I hear them at night.

Because some people are antsy, nay, not just antsy, but downright skeered if everyone doesn’t look like themselves. Or have the same thought processes, or a sense of humor. The other adults with the teenagers were freaking out, why? Because “a teenager might get snatched”. Why the fear? Because the people in that store didn’t look the same. It is stupid reasoning is what it is.

Just as I was talking to an online friend about a promo that our church is going to do for Easter Sunday – we’re getting lots of plastic eggs, putting a jellybean in each, and a rolled up invite to come to church Easter Sunday – and putting eggs out around town in the various neighborhoods. His immediate thought? They’re going to call the police on you guys thinking you are a bunch of pedophiles.

I’m still SMH on that one. Our Sunday School numbers have been low lately, many of the kids are sleeping in on Sundays whereas they used to be at church every Sunday morning on the van. We’re also going to re-start the promos, as in “chili dog Sunday”, pizza, one day we had Sundaes for Sunday – come to sunday school/church, and BEHAVE, and you’d get your choice of an ice cream sundae.

I still say you’re nuts.

Susan, please provide links to the many documentaries showing every single child allowing themselves to be lured away by strangers. Even, say, three would be nice.

And you can drop the self-righteous act too; you’re the one with the assumption that all our kids will be kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and maybe killed, because we allowed them to walk a few aisles over in the Walmart.

Beth – another one

http://m.youtube.com/?rdm=4phc78eyh&reload=3#/profile?user=childluresprevention&view=videos&v=KWeugr1dyi8

These are not documentaries. They are news and/or entertainment clips.

I just shared this story with my office-mate, thinking she, as a parent of two, might share my POV (way to go, little girl!). Instead she blurts out “Why would you ever leave your kid alone in a store?!”

I attempted a brief explanation of Free-Range Parenting (recognize and resist) and she looked at me dubiously and said “I don’t know… it seems like a good way to get your kids hurt or killed.”

*sigh*

Lenore, what a solidly good treatment of a difficult topic!

Everyone else, well, not everyone but…

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m terrified to make a comment on this post right now…!

I am so glad that girl is okay. I honestly laugh to think if that it had been one of my boys. They are *strong* and they would have kicked him in the groin if they had a chance. Which is maybe why I don’t worry about someone abducting my kids in a busy public place. (In the parking lot is another thing, but really how did this guy expect to get the kid out the store? Are some kids really that docile? I know it has happened, but so extraordinarily rare, indeed.)

Diane S,
Maybe people aren’t coming to Sunday school because they don’t want you filling their children’s heads with your superstitions. I hope if you do this project your group gets a giant fine for littering on other people’s property. It is what you deserve.

@ms herbert – was tellign Hineata what coyotes are here in TX also besides the 4-legged variety that you usually hear howling at night. As far as kids being safe, when we’d go to Fry’s off 59, the family would split up – kids go to the dvd section, I’d go to appliances, and hub would be in computers & peripherals.

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