Boys & Strangers in Public Restrooms: Two Stories

I’m glad to hear that the two men in the first story weren’t too scared of being thought of as unsavory to help out the little boy. I know that I–as a woman with a young son–sometimes second guess my friendly impulses toward children because I get tired of the “stranger danger” ridiculousness. Bravo to men who are willing to simply be upstanding adults when our culture makes it clear that only weirdos are interested in kids other than their own.

As for the mom in the second story, I really wonder what she believes she’s doing for her son.

Your photo reminds me of when I was a kid. We lived four houses down from a corner gas station. We had one toilet for a family of 8. My older brothers were instructed to go to the gas station if they needed the restroom urgently when someone younger needed to go. That was when gas station bathrooms were unlocked and accessible from outside. And no, our parents did NOT accompany my brothers for this purpose. Magically, they are still alive.

On another note, yesterday a sweet tot with Down syndrome looked at me, smiled, and reached out as if he thought I was someone he knew. My choices were to ignore him or acknowledge him with some affection. I chose the latter. What I don’t like about this was that it felt like a non-conformist action. The hurtful choice would have been the more “correct” one nowadays, I fear.

When my son was three, he started to refuse to go to the women’s with me. While I was not crazy about it on the NJ Turnpike – he survived (his brothers stayed with him). Now, he is an independent six-year old.

@RichW – I agree. The 2nd mum would be the type to control everything around her. Also, I see why she’s brushing her 8 yo’s teeth. It is more efficient. But life’s not always about efficiency.

My poor little brother … we grew up constantly hearing my mom say that someone was going to “steal him” from the men’s bathroom. She still allowed him to go into the men’s room, but always with a lecture to “be sure to scream loudly if someone tries to steal you.” This was up until about age 12. 🙁

Christina, that’s interesting about that law! We need that where I live — too often there are 8 and 9 years old boys in the women’s bathroom.

raketemensh, I always told my kids (and the ones at the preschool that I worked at) that if they could get up there and go across the monkey bars on their own, they were big enough to do it. If they couldn’t reach to do it, then they weren’t big enough.

I figured if they were big enough to go across, they were also big enough to fall down. I have never felt that some equipment was too high if they could get up on their own. (Even when the last was only 9 months old and climbing everything.) I want my kids strong enough to do the things on their own, otherwise, a nice dad like you helping them up (who might not stick around like you) could lead to my kid getting hurt before they are ready. I really wouldn’t want you helping my kids in this way. (And it doesn’t matter if you were male or female.)

This is all a personal family issue, so tell the kids that you don’t know if their parents want them doing it before they are tall enough to do on their own. If the parents say yes, then it is your back!

Teaching them how to throw the ball, or telling them how to do it (letting them do it on their own- like, “put your foot over here, grab there…”) or something like that? Go for it! I always love having dads at the park.

Crazycatlady- I worked at a prek for three years. One with lots of tall equipment. Our rule was “if you can’t get up you can’t get down”. Staff was not allowed to put kids on equipment. Most figure out a way up on their own. Safer for the kids, encourages independence (nothing like the smile when they do it by themselves) and saved our backs.

I was raised by a widowed mother. I had one set of grandparents because I never knew my late father or his side of the family. I also had a big brother from Big Brother’s Big Sister’s of America. My big brother was a middle aged man and now he is about to retire. I was born in 1984 but was raised more like a kid in the 1960’s. My grandparents are now gone, they passed away in 2008. I got stuck in a bathroom stall onetime when I was about 8 or 9 at a restaurant. My grandfather came looking for me and helped get me out. The stall door was messed up. I was just fine, it was not a busy day or place. I was taught self reliance and fiscal responsibility. Everyone I grew up with made fun of me for my old fashioned and strange ways. Now I am married have a son on the way and we plan to raise our son in a traditional house hold. I work for the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks department keeping our state parks clean. I run an independent ministry all for free called Montana Truth Seekers Ministry. I do not accept a paycheck from the Ministry.

My wife is a housewife and we get along better with old couples than people our age because they are so irresponsible. I have to say I loved this blog. I do follow your blog because it is quite interesting. Women need to let their sons grow up to be self reliant even if they mess up here and there. My mother got cancer when I was 12 and almost died. I was taught to do laundry and everything else I would need to know to survive. I learned to cook on my own. I did burn several food items but never burnt the house down. I would have been well taken care of if my mother had not survived the cancer. I was still taught to be self reliant though. Thank you for your post and I am appalled at women who cannot trust an 8 year old boy to brush their own teeth or drag them into a women’s room. My wife witnessed the same thing the other day at a local pizza place. The boy was standing outside the stall talking to his mother though not brushing his teeth.

I’ve told this story before, but I was at my daughter’s t-ball game and went to the ladies room. A young man aged 9 or so came into the women’s bathroom alone. I asked him why he was in the ladies room. He told me his mom told him to use the women’s room. I told him that unless his mom was with him, that he needed to use the men’s room and that a boy his age really shouldn’t be in the women’s room at all b/c it was uncomfortable for me and many other women. The sad thing is that this was in the safest area you could imagine. Nothing has ever happened in that area as far as I am aware. I felt for the boy too. But, I was not about to let that slide.

The pool I swam at a year ago had signs saying at what age you had to send your kid to the appropriate locker room. I was grateful for the rule, as I’ve seen boys nearly as tall as me in the women’s restroom in some places. Sadly this pool really should never have needed this rule. In addition to the men’s and women’s locker rooms, there is a family locker room. Thus, even toddlers have no need to be in the wrong locker room at that pool.

Yes, I agree that it is not fair to the girls if a big boy of 8 or 9 is in the girls’ restroom. When I was a kid, some boys that age were known to engage in “sexually curious” actions with girls (and I’m sure it still happens). I send my 5yo girls to the restroom alone. The last thing I expect them to encounter in there is a bigger boy who is unaccompanied by his mom. If any mom here does that, please stop it now.

Why on earth would it be ok for a boy of 8 or 9 to go unaccompanied to the ladies room but not the men’s? If he is old enough to go on his own to one than surely he can go to the gender appropriate one? Or ids this more of the “all men are bad” thinking. Sheeseh.

When my boys were younger there was a dad with 7 year old twins (one of each) who were in swimming classes at the same pool we went to, the dad brought his daughter into the boys change room with him, even though there were family rooms, and a sign stating no opposite sex over age 5. My sons pointed out to me that the girl was making comments about what she was seeing, I asked the dad to not bring her in anymore, he refused, It took the pool manager getting involved to make him stop. I mean I understand, he was a single dad, but there were facilities where he could helicopter to his hearts content, and leave my boy’s privacy and dignity intact.

Rest stop bathrooms are the worst, I’ve seen moms bring in POST PUBESCENT TEENAGE sons into the ladies’ room.

Why bother having separate restrooms if you’re going to bring men into the ladies room?

And don’t get me started about 8-year-olds who run in and look under the stalls to see if they’re occupied.

What I don’t get, is for every paranoid mother of a boy, shouldn’t there also be a paranoid mother of a girl who doesn’t want boys in the restroom with HER little darling?

The worst was a couple weeks ago at the changing room at the pool this kid totally checked out my boobs. It was awkward.

“leave my boy’s privacy and dignity intact.” Really? Same for guy at urinal, etc.

Can we please separate these issues? Someone seeing you nude in a place you know there are other people is not a violation. Through the peep hole, yes. In a public rest room, no.

I agree that it is sad that people over parent by bringing kids who are older into the restroom/ locker room. I think its great to teach kids to be independent and would choose to parent my children that way when they are older (currently only 3 and 9mths)

But who cares if someone sees you? In all honesty it is probably much healthier for all involved for kids to see real people naked and not just the pornographic enhancements they will find on the internet. Our progression of personal privacy in the 20th century is simply amazing. We went from tenements with public bath houses down the street or 1 tub in the kitchen for the whole family to raising kids with “their own” bathrooms.

Not to mention, at least 1/10 of the people who are in your own restroom are sexually attracted to your gender. 1/10 of the kids in that swim class are gay so what is the difference if its a girl or a boy looking?

Brian, if that’s how you feel, I’m sure there are places you can go where your kids can get a “healthy” look at the other gender naked. Most of us have been raised with sensitivity toward that and it should be respected. As for the 1/10 are gay comment – that is one reason why gay boys get attacked in the locker room. Young boys do not want to be “looked at” that way, especially when they are in a vulnerable (naked) state.

Craig, thanks for the reminder. I wouldn’t have thought to tell him that and I’m not sure my husband would either (as he isn’t shy in the least). Growing up as a girl and an only child has some disadvantages when it comes to parenting boys.

@Heather welcome.. .and while I am thinking of it… also tell the little ones that if they aren’t tall enough to reach over the lip of a urinal, dont try it. seeing some kid strain on his tippy toes rubbing all over the lip of the urinal is never a happy scene. (also remind them there is usually one that is way lower than the rest – made just for them).

I better shut up now, or even more moms will never send their boys in alone.

@craig we’d better not mention that sinks are usually too high for little ones to wash hands. That’s the only reason I accompany my 5yo into the bathroom (not the stall) so I can help him wash his hands.

Funny aside, I was in a grocery store washroom that had a sign saying you should wash under running water for 30 seconds. But the water auto-stopped after literally 2-3 seconds. I mentioned it to the checkout lady, and she, and the bagger, burst out laughing. Obviously a topic for them.

I think that kids should be encouraged to be independent but getting all hot and bothered about an 8 yo boy perving on you in the bathroom or getting worried about them sexually engaging with your daughter in there seems like over reaction. We’re trying to tach our kids that not all men are perverts but most boys are??

Justthisonce, why don’t we just send our daughters down the street nude, since all our neighbors are not perverts? That’s not the point at all. There’s a reason for separate bathrooms. (Heck, some transgender people won’t even go into the one that matches their anatomy.) Would you be OK with me going into the men’s room and watching while you’re at the urinal, if I assure you that I’m not interested in you sexually?

And, sorry, but I do remember having a 9yo boy’s hands all over me and down my pants (uninvited) when I was 8, and that does not make me a perv or a helicopter parent.

I think some people are in denial regarding how early kids actually get these ideas. Of course they get the ideas from older kids, but they can and do start in elementary school. It does not help our kids if we are blind to this fact.

@Justthisonce – Nobody is worrying about an 8 year old boy “perving” on them. 8 year old boys (and girls), are however, at the age when they are becoming very curious about the bodies of the opposite sex. That is prime “playing doctor” and “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours” age. A boy that age is very likely to sneak a look at a woman or girl in the bathroom. There is nothing sexual about it. It is pure curiosity. But I also don’t have to want me or my daughter to be the object of some boys curiosity when all we want to do is go to the bathroom, get changed or whatever.

Not too long ago, my family and I were out at a busy local pancake restaurant on a Saturday morning — in a town in South Orange County CA commonly rated as one of the safest in the nation.

As it was time to pay the check, my wife took our 2 1/2 yo out to the car to get him in his seat, and my 4 1/2 yo son and I went up towards the register to pay. He needed to use the bathroom (right around the corner from the register, where I had full view of the door), so I sent him in alone. 30 second later, I walked in, he’s pulling his pants up, so I have him wash up and we’re good to go.

Like a proud father I get into the car and ask him “can you tell mommy what you just did like a big boy?” Yeah, that didn’t go over well. Did I mention she’s a bit neurotic and overprotective?

Her entire family still thinks I was being irresponsible. “You don’t know who might be in there!!!”

But I guess growing up with a free-range dad and a helicopter mom is still better than growing up with both parents hovering…

I was probably one of the first generation of “bubble-wrapped kids,” and my parents didn’t trust me to brush my own teeth either–well, okay, they trusted me to brush my own teeth after breakfast and lunch, but not after dinner, because that was right before bed, and it was “important that it be done properly,” so they’d floss and brush my teeth before bed every night until I was…….well, I forget how old exactly, but TOO old–well into school age, and even pushing training-bra age, I kid you not. As for public bathrooms, though, I was allowed to go alone, and shower/change alone at the swimming pool, from a reasonable age–it was my brother in the boys’ change room who they were worried about, so a lot of the time, we just didn’t go to the pool unless my dad was available. My mom was also afraid of the public bathrooms at the beach (especially the mens’), so a lot of the time, when *that* situation came up, we’d just go home. Looking back, we live close enough to the closest (lifeguarded) beach that, if I were a parent, I’d let my kids walk or bike there by the time they were, oh, maybe eight years old. Ditto the pool at the recreation centre up the street.

Emily – just curious – once you were out of your parents grasp, did you totally rebel….. by say – going an ENTIRE day without brushing your teeth or worrying about it?

@Chris–No, I never rebelled by not brushing my teeth. I’ve always shared my parents’ revulsion for dirty teeth and bad breath.

We’re on the cusp of letting our 4.5 year old son alone in the men’s room. He’s very friendly, which is usually not a problem, but I want to instill in him a good boundary for his body and the nerve to scream and yell if needed.

When our kids were younger, my husband used to ask me to take our kids into the ladies’ room when they needed to use the washroom. I thought it was his way of getting out having to help out with the kids. He claimed that it was because the ladies’ room was cleaner than the mens’. When I questioned him as to how he would know that the ladies’ room was cleaner, he assumed that the ladies’ room would be cleaner because women sit (so no pee spray) and that women are more likely to wash their hands. I laughed because women do spray and I’ve seen plenty of women who don’t wash their hands! Plus, we have all those little boys in there who certainly spray more than the average full grown man! Husband was busted and now the kids go in their appropriate gender’s washroom on their own (ages 5 and 7).

P.S., In case anyone is wondering, I did complain at university about school-aged boys in the women’s locker room, only to be told that I was being unreasonable……..to expect a female-only environment, in a female-only locker room, in a purportedly adult-only institution, where you wouldn’t expect to see children of either gender. Well, it turned out that the “safety” of these boys aged 6, 7, 8+ years old (translation: their mothers’ neurosis) trumped the rights of the students for whom the university was intended for in the first place.

By the way, I didn’t hate kids, and I was involved in the “Big Buddies” program my first two years (I quit for reasons that are a story in and of themselves), and I was paired up with a delightful little boy named Anthony, who was eight when I joined. We went swimming quite often, but I always changed in the women’s change room, and Anthony in the men’s. If he needed help tying up his bathing suit (hard to manipulate a drawstring that’s wet), I would find a male lifeguard to do it.

Gee! I had enough trouble dragging my three year old nephew into the female bathroom! (Had to take two year old neice. Couldn’t really trust the three year old not to run off, and had strict instructions from the mum not to let the two year old go by herself -she was independent, but wasnt quite trustworthy enough yet).
He was quite convinced he was a boy and not a girl, so therefore did not belong in the girls bathroom!

I know this is kind of off topic, but I agree CrazyCatLady. I am a great proponent of not helping kids up play equipment or other climbing structures. It was my rule for trees too. “If you cannot get in by yourself, you shouldn’t climb it”. I even left my girl stuck in a tree – according to her – with a “you got in, so you should be able to find a way to get down” a couple of times. And she did of course. My daughter – now 7 – is the best tree (and cliff) climber I have ever seen. 🙂 She can also scale vertical poles like a monkey. She is the monkeybar queen and I have NEVER held her up to use them.

I am actually totally against helping kids in playgrounds. It is supposed to be a space for them to explore – kids’ only domain. With the exception of pushing the swing maybe.

I had a friend who used to always hold her child when she went down the slide. I was quite horrified when I discovered that at the age of 3.5 this child had no idea how to go safely down a slide without falling off the edge. My daughter was walking up the wrong side of the slide soon after she learnt to walk! (Only when there were no other kids wanting to go down – I was a nazi when it came to playground manners, I have to admit) I never held her or helped her.

As for older boys in female bathrooms, I have not seen it here. And I sure hope my daughter’s dad has stopped taking her in with him – I’d better ask now!

To each their own when it comes to playground equipment. I DID help my child on the playground (although never held her hand on the slide) and at 6 she is still the best tree climber of her group, can scale vertical poles like a monkey, can walk up the wall holding the rope, climb any rock wall and do any monkey bars within her wingspan (sadly, not all of them are when you still wear toddler clothes at 6). And she probably got a boost and encouragement the first few times she tried any of those things.

The one thing I HATED doing was pushing on the swings. I’d push for a minute or two but she needed to learn to pump herself at a very young age if she wanted to swing.

This reminds me of a post awhile back on the FB WhattoExpect page asking what ages we would let our kids to into public restrooms alone. I was shocked and disgusted at how many said they would NEVER allow thier child go into a restroom alone…not until 18 yrs old! Even the slightly more sane folks said their kids would not be allowed in a restroom alone until they were 12 or 13 at the oldest. Reason? Because apparently there are pedofiles sitting in bathrooms stalls across America just waiting for unaccompanied kids to enter. Wow.

How on earth do we ever expect children to grow up into functioning adults if they can’t even go to the bathroom alone? Good grief people…argh!

A month ago I was shopping in Nordstoms and went to use the bathroom. There were 5 stalls–one of which was completely unusable as someone had plugged it. A women was in front of me with 2 boys 5 and 7–who used 2 of the stales. When it was my turn the lady and the youngest son came out of one of the stales–with peed all over the seat and the floor so I decided to wait. Now quite a long line has formed and the lady said–that stale is open to me and I said first off your sons should be using the mens room and not contributing to the line up and second you should clean-up the seat after you or your son peed all over it. It’s so bad no one even wants to use it. She soo wanted to leave the bathroom asap–but couldn’t because her older son was still in the stall.

Now I do understand the difficulty of keeping high energy kids close by as my youngest 5–despite the rule that she wait by the sinks for myself and on occasion leave the restroom. Which she did recently on a trip at a rest stop and I searching for her and saw her run but the window outside and what running back and forth on the sidewalk– “exercising”

I was at the grocery store last week, and my 4yo needed the bathroom while we were in the checkout line (just after I put all of the groceries on the belt, of course). Luckily, the restrooms were within visual range so I sent him to the men’s room (he feels very strongly about going there, so I let him unless we’re at a big place like a museum and I have to pee too).

I finished checking out, keeping an eye on the door, and wondering what was taking him so long. Then I took my cart and waited outside the door. To my horror, after a couple of minutes, I heard my son’s blood-curdling, panicked screams. I almost burst in but decided to ask a nice-looking man who was passing by to check instead. He went in and discovered that my son was stuck in the stall – he couldn’t get the latch open and, having never encountered that situation before and being only 4, it didn’t occur to him to crawl under the door. The man tried to get it open from the outside, but couldn’t. Just then a mom passed by with her ~10yo son and, hearing the commotion (the screams had stopped but my son was NOT happy and not calm enough to believe my instructions from outside the bathroom that he could crawl under and out) sent her son in to crawl under and open the door.

Of course, we had a long talk about how to escape if this happens again, but I was really pleased with the freerangeness of this – a) my first though was that he’d fallen while trying to use the sink (since he’s short and monkeys his way up), not that he was being abused/kidnapped, b) that a random man was willing to help and c) that another random mom sent her boy to help too. This is how the world _should_ work!

Still trying to figure out the ‘omg there might be a pedophile in the bathroom’ concern. has anyone ever heard of a child being assaulted by a stranger in a public bathroom??? I can’t imagine even the most brazen pervert being that bold. maybe its happened and I missed the news story – it just seems so far fetched to me.

I understand that a developmentally disabled boy might need his mom’s help in the locker room. However, is it right that my young daughters would be there wondering what “that” is? (And don’t get on me for not making the parenting choice to explain all that yet. That’s my business.) If that is the situation, best to go into the handicapped toilet stall if there is no family changing room. And also, advocate for a family changing room if there aren’t any. (We’re lucky to have a couple at our rec center.)

I’m just so relieved that in both cases the boys emerged from the bathroom “un-harmed”.

As soon as my son was old enough to understand that one room was for ladies and one for men, he resisted going into the ladies’ room. By the time he was 4 1/2, he wasn’t going to be caught dead there. He hasn’t been abducted since, and it’s been a year.

@Linvo – And I don’t think there is any advantage in not helping them have some success when first wanting to learn to do something. You shouldn’t follow them around the playground doing things for them and holding their hand. But I don’t see why you wouldn’t help if they ask for help in learning something new. I didn’t just throw a book in front of my child and say “you’ll figure it out when you’re ready.” I don’t think it really makes much sense to say “I’ll push you on the swings until you can do it yourself but I won’t spot you on the monkey bars until you are confident enough to do it yourself.” Help is help.

@ Craig – It does happen. My best friend was flashed in a women’s bathroom by a man who then tried to feel her up when she was about 8. 9 year old Matthew Cecchi was killed in the men’s room while his aunt waited outside at a campground when I lived in California. But these are rare occurrences. Millions of people use public restrooms every day without being molested or murdered.

Further, while a man will probably not try feel up a kid with a parent (or other adult) present, what does a mom think she is going to do to prevent a schizophrenic being told by “god” to murder from murdering her child? He can slit her throat just as easily as the child’s and she is no physical match for a crazy person on a mission from “god.” Some horrible events are just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not an issue of lack of parents at all but I knew many people who blamed the Checchi family for letting Matthew go into the bathroom alone and this is frequently sited as a reason to never let boys go into men’s rooms alone.

It has also lead the push for family restrooms – a good thing being proposed for a bad reason. I’m all for family restrooms. Honestly, regardless of disabilities, I don’t want your older boy in the restroom with me so family bathrooms make it easier for you. But I still feel that it is completely inappropriate for a mother to physical attend her 9 year old (or 8 or 7 or 6 or 5) son in the restroom. He has to find that embarrassing and emasculating. And we do usually see this discussion in terms of mothers and sons. It seems as a society we more readily accept girls going into the restroom alone at young ages than boys and seem to understand the inappropriateness for everyone of an older girl being in the men’s room.

Donna–I’m not a parent, nor do I play one on television, but I think the difference between pushing a kid on a swing, and spotting him or her on the monkey bars, is that nobody ever got seriously injured from not being able to swing high enough on a swing, whereas falling from too-high monkey bars can lead to broken bones and concussions. Hence the rule of “if you can’t reach on your own, you’re not ready for that piece of equipment.”

@ Emily – Except that is not always a fitting rule. My child was ready for the equipment long before she could reach it. She’s tiny; she still can’t reach some monkey bars now. She can do all monkey bars hand-over-hand if given a boost to them though.

I don’t care whether people put their kids on monkey bars or not. I certainly don’t think that it is something you MUST do as a parent. I took issue with people indicating that it was wrong to do and that you are harming your children in some way by doing it.

I very much agree that you should NEVER put someone else’s kid on the monkey bars (or any other playground equipment) without their permission. They may have a very good reason for not wanting their child there. I used to get extremely annoyed when people would put my child on the swings. She was obsessed with them and would swing all day. If she was not in the swings, it was because she had already swung, done her countdown to swing departure, begged and pleaded for more time and been told no more swinging for the day. I really didn’t want to go through all that again because some “kind” stranger decided to put her in the swing.

skl1 – I didn’t bash you. You’ve explained your our decision-making process which sounds very much like I don’t want to do this and it isn’t important to me that you learn it so learn it whenever you want, particularly when you readily admit to helping your children learn other skills that you admit they were not actually ready to learn on their own, like riding a 2 wheel bike, because them learning those skills early was important to you.

And this is a perfectly acceptable thought-process to me. I do view my daughter’s time at the playground as my time off – time she is supposed to be interacting with other kids or playing by herself and not demanding my attention and it’s a time when I can chat with other parents or read a book (the closest park is too far for her to go alone or she would). Despite agreeing to put her on the monkey bars a time or two or pushing her on the swing for a few minutes(neither needed anymore), she was expected to play on her own. I take her to the playground to play with other kids, get some physical exercise and to get some peace, quiet and time to myself while she does it.

If you were insulted by my comment, rather than simply saying I’m wrong, it is only because you believe that there is something wrong with simply not wanting to push your kid on the swing or place them on the monkey bars because you don’t want to. And since I am very much that person who doesn’t do certain things because I don’t want to, I guess you did, indeed, bash me. I readily admit to regularly taking my child to the playground for no reason whatsoever other than I NEED her to be occupied with something else for 30 minutes or I’ll kill her. No grandiose notions of building her physical and mental health. No not putting her on equipment because I want her to learn independence. It is nothing more than pure self-preservation on my part.

And that was my only point. I think the ability to say that is very much being lost in this country. If we are not actively doing something for our children, we are considered “lazy” and feel the need to justify our behavior with character building reasons for it. I said the same thing in the thread about leaving kids in the car. Everyone was trying to come up with a million reasons for it to be better for kids to be left in the car when the real reason is it’s just plain more convenient and there is nothing wrong with that.

Donna, one of the things that I have taken away from Lenore’s book is that we should learn to let go of the idea that every little thing we do for our kids (or not do) is going to have a major effect on how they turn out. So, it’s all good. 🙂

I think I like talking about the topic because for me those playground visits when my daughter was younger was what mademe realise that I was different from a majority of other ‘modern day parents’ and what later made me identify with the free-range movement. But there are no detailed rules on what makes the best free-range (or other) parent!

I know we will disagree on a number of topics, but just the fact that we are here commenting already shows that we are thinking about the best way to raise our kids and not just letting the media or pseudo experts tell us what kind of parents we should be. 🙂

Until recently I have been wondering at what age I should start sending my kids into the bathroom themselves in public places. My daughter is 4 1/2, my son is 3. Then, last week, my daughter told me quite firmly at a local restaurant that she was going by herself than you very much and could I please leave her alone. I doubt she washed her hands as well as I would have liked, but she was thrilled with her independence. I expect my son will likewise let me know when he is ready. Of course, for the sake of other visitors, I will have to make sure he has learned to focus and not point his penis in every conceivable direction while his mind wanders!!!

As for the tooth brushing, I have a friend whose son still needs assistance with some personal hygiene issues at age 9. But, when they go camping and use public facilities, she lets it go for a day or two just to avoid embarrassing him in public. He isn’t going to get cavities by doing a bad tooth brushing job once. So, I think we CAN safely make some judgments about the Mom in this scenario.

Donna, you said my reasoning was irrational and I was making it up to cover for being uninvolved. Fact is, these are my beliefs and while you are free to disagree, I don’t appreciate being called a liar. I don’t take rest at the playground; it’s one of the few times I get to spend with my kids, and I sit all day at work, so why would I go there to sit? I just don’t want to waste an opportunity for my kids to be active. If my life were different, they might have lots of other opportunities to run and climb, or I might have the whole day to spend with them, but this is our life. A single, working mom has to make the most of every minute with her kids. That is not a comment on anyone else’s life.

My kids spend the work day in KG/daycare, where they are not allowed to take any physical risks beyond what a toddler can safely do. On top of that, most of the time our weather is not conducive to playing on the park equipment. One of my kids needs a lot of exercise or she’ll get fat. And both tend toward being wusses, thanks to the way they are coddled by most adults. So yeah, when we go to the park I have some “goals” in mind for them (though they don’t know it). Does this mean I’m going to get kicked off the FRK Website?

So I had some further thoughts…

I relieve at various stations throughout two states, so I travel alot. In the past two months I have put 20,000kms on my personal car sort of lots of travel.

There is one public bathroom on a major highway I would not let my ten year old brother happily by himself. Not sure why, something just gives me the heebie-jeebies about those restrooms – I dont even use them (although the places truckies breakfast is delicious!).

Now, at ten I reckon he could hold it in for another 40kms until the next possible stop. But if he couldnt? I dont know…

So, I guess there are circumstances I wouldnt feel comfortable letting a child, even a not so small one, go by themselves. Hell, I felt uncomfortable when my ex would use them! (only once, then he agreed with me they didnt feel right!)

Okay, I just gotta say this…

babyparamedic said:

“I relieve at various stations throughout two states,”

In the context of this thread, can you imagine what I initially thought you were talking about when you said, “I relieve at various stations?”

LOL

@Shera–Nine seems like a rather high cutoff for being allowed in the locker room unsupervised, barring a child with a physical or developmental disability, or a proven behaviour problem. But, since I assume you can’t lobby to have that changed, would it be possible to simply have your daughter put on her swimsuit under her clothes before leaving for the pool, and then shower/change at home afterward? It’s not perfect, but it’s probably better than having to miss out on swimming all summer unless you’re with her.

But if you are talking about summer only, then yes, that sounds like a solution. When I was a kid, we used to put on our bathing suits, walk to the public pool, swim to our heart’s content, and walk back. The suits would dry along the way. On a good day, we didn’t even lose or destroy our towels.

@SKL1: You’re right–I’m from Canada, so I understand that wet bathing suits outdoors (even with clothes worn over top of them, after drying off as much as possible) really wouldn’t work. I was just picturing Shera’s community pool as an outdoor pool that gets most of its traffic during the warmer months. As for postponing swimming until kids can negotiate a locker room independently (sometimes at an arbitrary age chosen by the pool facility, like at Shera’s pool where the age is nine), I’m not sure I agree with that–kids should ideally begin getting acclimated to the water at a young age (I started with parent-and-child classes as an infant) so that they have a solid foundation to start learning to swim, which of course includes basic water safety. Swimming isn’t just a fun activity, it’s a very important life skill, because without swimming ability, you’re really not safe in a boat, on a dock, or anywhere near open water.

For example, by the time I was nine or ten, I was swimming lengths of the pool at the YMCA and the rec centre near my house, and I got my Bronze Medallion at 13, and Bronze Cross at 14…….and, the summer I was 14, I saved my brother from drowning in the lake during a family cottage vacation. If I’d lived in Shera’s community, and couldn’t START learning to swim until I was nine (because I wouldn’t have been allowed in the locker room alone until then), I probably wouldn’t have been far along enough to swim out to my drowning brother, pull him back to the dock in a cross-chest carry, and then haul him out of the lake.

I just want to make a comment on the number of people stating that boys of a certain age are “curios” about bodies, as I stated above, my experience in a locker room was with a girl making the comment about boy’s. It works both ways, just because the majority of posters on here are women does not mean that girls are above this type of behavior. Is it not this kind of thinking that can lead to the “all men are pervs” type of thoughts?

skl1, I agree, but there is a trend of more dads being involved in these things, I think that people just need to use more common sense. (asking a lot, I am sure). My ex and I used to worry more about what one of the weasels of death would get up to if they weren’t supervised. That being said, we have to place some trust in our kids to handle situations, even awkward ones, on their own.

@SKL1–I’m glad you agree with me. Maybe it’d be a good idea for parents to do a few “practice runs” with their children at home, and have them independently put on swimsuits, gather towels, etc., for the pool, and have them shower and get dressed for school in the mornings, as a matter of course, in order to prepare for the more challenging and distracting experience of a public locker room. Even then, parents can make it easier for their young children, by dressing them in clothes that are easier to manipulate on swimming/gymnastics/dance days, like elastic-waist pants that can be pulled on and off without zippers or buttons, Velcro shoes, Crocs, or flip-flop sandals instead of lace-up sneakers, T-shirts instead of button-up shirts, etc……and, for little girls, two-piece bathing suits (tankinis, for modesty purposes) and two-piece dance/gymnastics leotards are much easier to remove for bathroom breaks than their one-piece counterparts. I guess what I’m saying is, swimming is a skill, and getting dressed/undressed independently is a skill, so it makes sense to practice both from a young age.

Of course, none of this would make any difference at Shera’s pool, unfortunately, but I have to wonder if other members of the community haven’t complained about it, through letters, etc.–I know that I would be, because it affects everyone. Sure, it affects the parents who can’t go swimming with their “awkward”-aged kids (as in, under nine, but old enough to refuse to go into the opposite-sex locker room) unless a same-sex parent is available (and both parents, if you have kids of both genders), and it affects the kids themselves as well (no riding bikes to the pool in the summer until they’re nine, even with older siblings), but it affects the general population as well, because they’re no longer guaranteed a single-gender environment in a purportedly single-gender locker room at the pool.

I have to wonder, if things are this restrictive now, what will it be like in ten or twenty years? Padded cells for kids at home, and full-face crash helmets and leashes with harnesses in public, until they’re eighteen?

@Linvo – I agree with you 100% that every decision we make for our children is not imperative. In fact, very few are. It doesn’t matter a hill of beans in life whether you put your child on the monkey bars or not. I put my kids on monkey bars because she liked it, not for any other reason and I couldn’t care less what decision you make or why. It’s kinda an idiotic thing to discuss from the get go.

Yet someone on this thread mentioned putting kids on monkey bars and several chimed on with “I never put my kids on anything and if you put your kids on playground equipment you are limiting them in _______ way.” And yet people here apparently get very upset if someone puts their children on monkey bars as if it’s a crime worthy of the death penalty because their child will never be the same again (although I agree that people should not put strange kids places without parental permission, it just seems like a silly thing to get really worked up over). And we seem to go down this path every time playground equipment comes up. It is not even a FRK issue. In fact, the fact that you are letting your kids near monkey bars at all pretty much moves you out of helicopter range. So I’m just not sure why we go down this road so frequently and it annoyed me this particular time – probably because I was in a bad mood already. I shouldn’t have let it annoy me though.

Oh, and Donna, looks like you are posting here too. Sorry I haven’t got back to you further regarding coats, have been head down bum up with an assignment, but will google it this weekend – promise! Hope you really enjoy your time here in July, and make sure you get north of Auckland a bit at last, Auckland being just another big blob of a place, very spread out, and I know you have lots of big cities in the States. That said it is a fairly cosmopolitan place, so you might find it interesting anyway, and most of the people are friendly! And the offer still stands if you get further south another time, just let us know beforehand through here and we’ll take you sightseeing! Cheers

My son has been going into the men’s since he was 4, he’s 6 now and it’s totally not a big deal. His grandparents don’t feel comfortable about it though.
I don’t think 8 years old is too old to ‘check’ that they brushed correctly. I don’t think you should be doing all the brushing though. I’ve heard dentists say you should check their teeth until they are 12, which does seem too old, imo.

Dawn Rachele, I think it really depends on the kid but 12 is probably more than enough to be independent to clean his or her teeth.