Children’s Bible Missing a Certain Key Point

Actually, it’s my understanding that He departed quickly via LearJet to seek treatment from his crucifiction injuries. Probably in Canada.

Wow. I thought the kid’s Bible I once read (entire OT in an hour or so) while babysitting was bad. It completely glossed over why Joseph ended up a servant in Egypt, apparently his brothers selling him into slavery instead of killing him and his subsequent forgiving of them wasn’t important. Actually, I didn’t get through the NT before the parents got home so I don’t know how it dealt with the all important death and resurrection bit.

This cracks me up – My son read a “reader” bible last year and it was funny the “readable” words that were used. Big Man is easier to read than Goliath? Funny. I used to get cranky about it, but – glad that parents are still reading it with their kiddos, no matter the version.

That’s funny. I’m an atheist, though, so I find most things about religion to be silly. My kids, though, actually had an illustrated book of Bible stories and it was quite graphic.
I finally got rid of it because it gave my oldest nightmares. She was like 5 or 6 and came to me really upset and showed me the picture of the story of Abraham and Isaac and wanted to know why the dad was trying to kill his kid (she could read, too, by then). The picture had Abraham standing over a bound child with a huge dagger, ready to plunge it in.
I told her to ignore it and that some people are just crazy and then the book mysteriously disappeared after that. She couldn’t sleep for a week after that and my kids are NOT prone to nightmares.

and on the third day, Jesus rose from the… umm, sunlounger?

I made several comments on the cat-in-the-hat thread about my quest for the Easter Story in kids’ lit, so I won’t repeat it here. Just sad – isn’t that kinda the whole point of the Christian religion? It would be better if they simply skipped the story all together than said “Jesus went away” – went away where, why, and is he coming back? Did he give up? Find something better to do? Who’s gonna finish his work?

I do now have a halfway decent kids’ Bible that actually has the story of Solomon threatening to cut the baby in two, among other things.

Oh, my…

The other point that most people neglect ot tell children is that the JCI (Jewish, Christian, Islamic) religions trace themselves to Abraham. What is Abraham’s claim to fame? Being in the act of killing his own son because he heard God telling him to. There is also his wife who told him to shtup the slave girl to steal the resulting son only to banish them to the desert once she had “her own” son. Oh yeah, these are some righteous people!

Yes, you say, but he did not actually do it. Except that Matthew 5:28 says that thinking equals doing. And whilw you can make the case that filicide and adultery are different, you cannot have it both ways: Either thinking about it and being in the middle of doing it is seen as having done the deed or not.

Either way, the unavlidable truth is that the world’s three major religions trace themselves to someone who was killing his own son. In other words, these religions are built on an act of child abuse.

And of course the Olt Testament is full of commandments and bragging about killing children, plus there is the fact that priests are the single biggest group of molesters.

So yes, I’d say the “children’s” bible leaves out quite a bit indeed. I would also say that the mere exposure to religion by a parent should constitute child abuse and be grounds for removal of the child.

I know this position is extreme and I know it will never happen because people are too stupid and/or compliant and/or brainwashed to connect the very obvious dots but then again, ignorance of the truth is never an excuse. Try telling a cop you didn’t know the speed limit when he pulls you over and see if you get the ticket!

I would never dream of hurting my child or of trying to convince him of the truth of any system built on an act of child abuse. I would also never subject him to any system that would curtail the intellect that God supposedly gave him by filling his head with this violent and demonstrably false tripe.

@ Jen: I respect your atheism, but isn’t telling your child “ignore it and that some people are just crazy…”, then taking the book away the same as disciplining a child, then sending him/her on his way without ever explaining why he/she was disciplined? Like sweeping problems under the rug, and not actually solving them.

Perhaps, she had nightmares because she thought (consciously or subconsciously) her own father might be crazy and will kill her in her sleep. Regardless of your beliefs, the responsibility of educating your child (however way, in whatever way) falls on you. Not a good thing for the child to leave them “dangling” like that. Even if you don’t believe in God, maybe you should explain the story. It’s actually not that bad, and does have a happy ending. And even if you want to raise your child an atheist, she can still use that story to learn the meaning of trust and loyalty. Trust in herself and her parents, and loyalty to her family. This is neither religious or atheist, it’s a human thing.

@Chris, the difference between you and me is that I am open to new interpretations and evidence. So if my reading of the bible is wrong then please show me chapter and verse that says so. It is really easy to bleat about being “bashed” but that says nothing about the merits of the argument.

@Eric S, I am very curious: How the hell do you sugar-coat, explain away, spin, etc. the Isaac story? How do you spin, explain, etc. the many instances of gleeful genocide (which are almost worse for being mostly the kind of fantasies that would land a person in a psych evaluation)? How is the act of being ready to kill your kid because you heard voices “not that bad?”

The floor is yours. Please, explain. I can’t wait to see this one!

@Mr. Shreck, you’re telling me that a child growing up in a goddie family won’t feel pressured to become a goddie her/himself? You’re telling me that his family and community will say, “Little Johnny is an atheist, isn’t that cute?”

Your argument is both unrealistic and ignorant of basic child development.

@Chris, you are a christian, which means you subscribe to a belief set that owes its existence (via tradition and in its own book) to an act of unspeakable child abuse. That is very germane to parental fitness. You have exposed your kid(s) to a belief system that glorifies killing kids, even one’s own blood. What is the difference between that and my telling my son gory tales about how my grandfather wanted to kill my dad and how the two of them used to shoot up orphanages for fun?

@Anthony Hernandez, I told you nothing save that I thought you were going out on a limb to say that sharing religious traditions with children is child abuse. As far as I can tell, you made the rest of that stuff up to confirm your bias.

I will now add my unrealistic and ignorant opinions to those of the others above who have decided not to “debate” you further.

Oh, boy! I’ll bite. So all the children in homes that teach religion should be taken away. Then where will they be placed? Surely Anthony will adopt some of them, but how about the rest?

Oh, and of course we will have the minor question of whether it is more harmful to disrupt these kids’ lives than to tell them Bible stories.

As for the Isaac story – I don’t water it down. You don’t need to. God was testing Abraham to confirm that he would really put God first, even over his son. After all, as much as we love our children, what are they in the big scheme of things? Is my child more important than everything in the whole world? Maybe to me it feels that way, but God doesn’t prioritize my feelings over the whole world. So Abraham shows his complete submission to God and God rewards him richly. This is something that every other human from Adam and Eve onward (excluding Jesus) had failed to do. Submission to God is really a deep topic and I am not sure if Anthony is quite able to grasp it. But I am not afraid to expose my kids to it. (Even though I have my own ideas which are not in line with those of most Christians, Jews, or Muslims.)

I would also be interested in the citation for this book. It’s always good to get the whole story.

Some people would say that slaughtering animals so we can eat is just as bad as what Abraham was prepared to do to Isaac. Yet I think most people here believe in telling their children that eating meat means someone had to kill a cute furry animal.

I just don’t see the problem with the Isaac thing. I was told the story as a kid. It was hard to understand, but it did not make me think my parents were going to murder me in my bed. Somehow I think kids are provided with more intelligence than that.

@kcs: Funny you should mention Herr Big Bad. I was wondering whether reading Grimm’s Tales would constitute child abuse, too.

@SKL: I’ve been through that story with my kids, and as far as I can tell it caused them less upset than I’ve seen them show for losing a Pokemon battle. Of course, my wife was also lectured by a guy in line at Whole Foods about how letting them play Pokemon was encouraging animal cruelty. The older and more serene I get, the more I conclude that some arguments just aren’t worth having. File under: teaching a pig to sing.

@SKL: “Anthony, using extremely disturbed people to prove your point about all of society will not succeed here.”

You can’t blame him for trying, though. It works with the legislature all the time.

@SKL, please elaborate: Why is Abraham a model of righteous submission to God while Deanna Laney (who did the same thing except that she actually carried it out) is disturbed? How can you possibly make that distinction?

@Uly, you’re cute.

Aw, thanks!

I’m also secure and happy in my lack of religion. That might be why I don’t feel the need to attack other people for their beliefs. Maybe they’re silly or ignorant or whatever else you think of them. What of it? Either they’re good people (in which case good for them!) or they’re not (in which case the religion is assuredly not the problem).

All you’re doing is wasting your time, and making yourself look bad as well.

It’s kinda like the difference between the guy who shouts at the ferry terminal that because God loves us we’ll all go to hell if we don’t repent and the girl who – though visibly carrying a Bible and a bunch of tracts – sat down and spoke with me about how cute my nieces were and how nice the day was, and didn’t imply I was evil or push her beliefs on me.

One person is worth going to hell to avoid (assuming such a place exists, which I find extremely doubtful), and the other, had I been in the mood to gain religion, would make me think that her beliefs are the ones to have. Such a nice, happy person!

These folks know they, individually, are not intending to kill or molest their kids (and those who are really aren’t interested in *your* opinions), so all they get from your rampant trolling is that atheism made you a bitter, nasty person. And that you’re a jerk.

This is how I plan to share all literature with my children. I can’t wait to read Little Women. “And Beth…took a nap. For a long time. Then she went away to live on a farm and babysit for a family that really needed her. Everyone cried. Out of joy.”

My mom read my brother and me The Velveteen Rabbit when we were very young. She didn’t really remember the story, and how sad it was. We were sobbing, hysterical wrecks by the end of it, and she felt kind of bad. But we managed to survive.

When I was a wee lad in Sunday school (probably about 7 or 8) they spent a good 15 minutes one Sunday explaining exactly HOW crucifixion killed you.
Times have changed, indeed.

This is how I plan to share all literature with my children. I can’t wait to read Little Women. “And Beth…took a nap. For a long time. Then she went away to live on a farm and babysit for a family that really needed her. Everyone cried. Out of joy.”

LOL : )

Ali, I’ll admit that’s a little odd, but I think the point is that it isn’t “the same people.” What’s weird is that you have someone purporting to publish a book that tells a certain story, and then leaves out the main point of the story. If they called the book “cute stories about Jesus” it would be one thing, but having the word “Bible” on it and then leaving out the little detail that Jesus died makes no sense whatsoever.

I don’t see religion as benign. I see it as neutral.

Do people use religion to justify doing bad things?

Every day, probably since the first religion was invented.

Would they stop doing bad things without religion?

No earthly way. They’d just make up new excuses and keep on as they were from the beginning.

Religion is a human institution, and therefore reflects the humans who are involved in it. Humans can be terrible people, so religion can cover terrible things – but they’d be just as terrible without religion. (And that goes in reverse. Sometimes atheists are horrible, but it’s not because of the atheism, it’s because they’re individually bad people.)

Oh, sure, you can manipulate religion to make people do bad things in bigger groups than they’d manage individually (Spanish Inquisition, anybody?), but then, any time you divide people into groups you can manipulate group membership to the same effect. And people want to join groups. If they don’t identify as Christian and better than those non-Christians they’ll name themselves Americans and better than those non-Americans, or they’ll say they’re capitalists and better than those communists – and any of these groupings can justify atrocities. (Well, they can’t, but they *will*.)

The problem isn’t religion, it’s people.

I mean, you’re constantly bringing up the pedophile scandals in the Catholic Church. And those were bad – but they happened because the Catholic Church was big and involved in a number of charitable enterprises. Without the Catholic Church we wouldn’t see a vacuum in orphanages and boarding schools and mentoring programs – we’d see secular groups filling those gaps… and no doubt many of those secular groups would have the *exact same problems*. Why? Because some proportion of the population are pedophiles or are prepared to take advantage of any institution they can. It’s terrible, but it’s because they’re human, not because they have any particular religious affiliation.

But even if it were religion (and the fact that you’re so meanspirited indicates to everybody here that that’s not the problem), your comments here, aside from being wildly off-topic, are counterproductive. I hate to use a line on every last bingo card, but I’m going to anyway – trolling is not the answer. Your method doesn’t convince people to drop their religion, and it never will. If anything, they’ll cling to it harder to spite you and because you’ve convinced them that atheism = being a troll.

You want to “fight religion”? Well, go for it – but pick a method that *works*.

I would offer my own kid as an example who has never heard this story but no one here would accept that data point (and rightly so!)

And also because we don’t know how he’d react to the story because you have no intention of telling it to him – and on that, I don’t blame you.

@Uly, you make some cogent arguments. if you want to take this conversation offline then I’d be happy to.

As for mean-spirited, if the bible was full of daisies and pink ponies and blueberry cream then my arguments would be quite different. But it isn’t.

If I told the story to an older child, he/she would ask questions and work on understanding the point of the story. Much like youths / adults do when they hear stories from religions in which they were not raised.

Well, anyway, I have my own ideas about the Bible. I don’t treat it as the absolute and only truth. I see it as an attempt to explain something deeper in ways that common people can usually understand, with effort. I see other holy books as the same, and I feel that a study of multiple ones gives a better understanding of each of them – even though some of the “stories” directly contradict each other. In fact, especially because they contradict each other.

Anyhoo. I don’t know why I’m wasting time arguing with someone who has such severe issues with “religion” that he seriously thinks it’s child abuse. Talk about an extremist.

@SKL, I like to think my kid would say, “People believe this stuff? WTF?!” And I’m tempted to buy him a kid’s bible and let him read it to find out.

As for extremism, my kid is a lot less likely to deliberately fly a plane into a building or blow himself up in a crowded place than ANY goddie kid.

When I was teaching in the UK, we read the story of Noahs Ark to the 5 year olds… The illustration was of a big boat with animals and lots of bodies in the water beneath it… What a delightfully uncomfortable moment when little Johnny asked “Why are they all dead?”

Interesting discussion by the way and @Ali – those cookies sound like a horrific thing to do with kids 😀

Some of y’all…the point, you have missed it. How about taking arguments about religion off-line, yes? The point is not religion or lack thereof. The point is whitewashing a key point of a pretty famous book to (over)protect the kiddos.

RIght up there with telling a child that “grandpa just went to sleep…forever” instead of “grandpa died”. Parenting par excellence, that. *eyeroll*

Overprotect? Or lure them in?

@kcs 100% true story: My older brother told me that Bambi’s mom got shot, but not killed, so the hunter took her home to live with him and took care of her.

I never questioned this, for an embarassing period of time. It was much more traumatic finding out the truth later on.

“He died for your sins.” (As I recall.) Makes for a shock when the kids are in church listening to the sermon with mom and dad, doesn’t it? Or do kids who are of an age who can sit still no longer do that?

I don’t understand why this needs to be sanitized. Death is a fact as much as is birth. The Bible, to me, is an interesting read for the historical movements of people and a record of society. Abraham about to sacrifice his only son to God? A lot of other societies did the same thing at the time. To me, “cleaning” up the Bible has about the same effect as taking the “n” word out of Huckleberry Finn. It certainly does not help in understanding the roots of many peoples. People have not always been nice. Part of what we hope for with society is that it gets better, but cleaning it up means we can’t see the progress we have made.

People forget that for hundreds of years one of the ways religion held onto popularity was the fact that it featured exciting and often horrifying stories, many of which appealed to children. Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, an illustrated history of horrid Christian deaths published in the 16th century, was a fantastically popular book for children well into the 19th century. And if the Old Testament didn’t have exciting (and deathy) stories in it, it wouldn’t have lasted so long.

The crucifixion is pretty tame compared to some of the saints’ lives. Or what Bloody Mary did to assorted Protestants.

You know, if they’re going to white-wash the Jesus story, I say-why stop there?

To wit, some examples of the “old” and the “new:”

Old: Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus for 20 pieces of silver, felt remorse, went out & hanged himself.

New: Judas tattle-taled on Jesus to his mother, who proceeded to put him in a 3 day time-out he “resurrected” from.

Old: Paul was leading a life of murdering Christians, one day he was walking on the road to Damascus, was blinded by the light, and then proceeded to become a fiery teacher on God’s behalf.

New: Paul was calling the remaining disciples names like “Jesus Boy” and “Matthew who smells like poo-poo,” when one day the Spirit of Kindness locked him in a Fisher Price playhouse and made him watch sensitivity-training DVDs, and he apologized to all of the disciples for calling them names.

Old: Mary, at age 15, became pregnant via divine intervention, this baby later became Jesus

New: Mary thought Joseph was kind of cute, got “goose pimples,” asked him to dance–and the beauty of the music & the moment so overcame her it magically planted “Jesus Eggs” in her bosom which blossomed into the Jesus we know today

Old: Jesus was born in a manger because there was no room for him in the inn

New: CPS didn’t approve of the arrangements for Jesus, so Mary-Joseph had to give Jesus up for adoption to one of the Pharisees who, having more money, could provide a “much better home” for him

Old: Mary & Joseph couldn’t find Jesus one-time when he was 12 years old, for nearly 3 days, and were shocked when he said “wist ye not that I must be about my father’s business?”

New: Mary & Joseph were negligent in failing to track their 12 year old son’s every move, he became separated from them, CPS became involved, threatened to remove him from their home & charge them with criminal negligence until they agreed to place a GPS tracker on him and give him his own cell phone. Jesus himself was not clarifying the need for him to carry on his father’s business, but was instead crying, he wasn’t used to being more than 3 inches from his mother’s purse strings at any given time.

Old: Jonah didn’t want to prophecy in Ninevah, so God had a whale swallow him for 3 days until he came to his senses.

New: Jonah was scared to prophecy in Ninevah because he didn’t want to be accused of hate-speech and slandered in the press, God sent an angel who assured him that he wasn’t being an intolerant homophobe and Jonah no longer felt guilty “ramming religion down other people’s throats.”

Ha ha ha.

I have to say taking that out of the bible pretty much nullifies the entire book.

The point of Christianity (to my understanding) is that Jesus died to “save” his followers. How can they be saved if he didn’t die??

Removing his death makes the story internally inconsistent. And that makes it a bad story – if you think the bible is literal truth or not!

@Eric S,

I am going to repeat your story verbatim and simply change the names of the characters in it. Here goes:

VERSION A:

Grandpa gave Dad everything. He treated him and his family very well. So to TEST Dad’s loyalty to him, for all his blessings and gifts, he commanded Dad to sacrifice me. Now Grandpa is compassionate and kind, but he also expects loyalty from his children in return. So Grandpa didn’t really want Dad to kill me, he just wanted to see if Dad would obey when he told him to. That’s why, when Dad was about to do it (kill me), Grandpa sent his housekeeper down to tell Dad to stop. That Grandpa has seen that Dad IS loyal to him, and did not need to prove it anymore by really killing me. Because Dad showed his loyalty to Grandpa, Grandpa rewarded him with many more children, and a promise that his name would live forever. I grew up to have a family of my own. My own children grew up to have a family of their own. And they all flourished, some even became President.

VERSION B:

Dad gave me everything. He treated me and my family very well. So to TEST my loyalty to him, for all his blessings and gifts, he commanded me to sacrifice my puppy. Now Dad is compassionate and kind, but he also expects loyalty from his children in return. So Dad didn’t really want me to kill my own puppy, he just wanted to see if I would obey when he told him to. That’s why, when I was about to do it (kill my puppy), Dad sent one of his golfing buddies down to tell me to stop. That Dad has seen that I AM loyal to him, and did not need to prove it anymore by really killing my son. Because I showed my loyalty to Dad, Dad rewarded me with many more children, and a promise that my name would live forever. I grew up to have a family of my own. My children grew up to have a family of their own. And they all flourished, some even became dictator for life.

======================

Pretty f***ing twisted, eh?

make that 2011 years :-).

Also, Chris, I too think your daughter’s response was beautiful! I wonder what kind of authors and intellectuals we will have in 20 years if we assume that children are not capable of understanding basic thought and emotion. A defining moment of my life was when my teacher let me keep reading in class after reading time because tears were streaming down my face after “Kitty” the dog died in my book. I was shaken the rest of the day, but I wouldn’t trade my memory of reading that book for anything!

First of all, on topic: that children’s Bible is pretty nuts. I taught preschoolers at church, and we always told them that Jesus died for their sins and rose again. As many have mentioned, that is the point of Christianity. Of course, there was no need for gory details, but good grief, kids as young as 2 surely know that people do DIE!

Now on to our good friend Anthony:

Before I started going on the Internet, I can honestly say that I never knew any atheists. I know people personally who aren’t very religious, but nobody who openly goes around proclaiming that they don’t believe in God. Therefore, it was always easy for me to just assume that atheists must be horrilbe, evil people. Now in the last 5 or 6 years, I’ve “met” hundreds of atheists on the Internet in various forums. I’ve learned that many of them are very nice people with high morals. Many have been genuinely hurt by Christians and other religious people. And hardest of all for me to admit, some had some very good intellectual reasons for not believing in God. It’s made me challenge some of my own beliefs. I may not be swayed to their side, but I have to conclude that my old attitude toward atheists was bigoted and ignorant.

Then there is you, Anthony.You are so blinded by your own hatred and bigotry. You are no different from Fred Phelps, just substitute gay for religious. Yes, I imagine you’ve had some religious people that were rude and nasty to you, but in your case I think your attitude is the reason. I am a pretty tolerant person but you make me very angry when I read your rants. I really wish that Lenore would ban you instead of issuing pleas for civility that you just ignore.

Oh and by the way, since I’m not a fundamentalist, I don’t have a problem with the story of Abraham. I believe it is a metaphor for God’s sacrifice of Jesus (Isacc = mankind).

@ Anthony: See your still emphasizing the “killing” part. And the “rewards” were based on the story of Abraham and Issac. If your going to translate it in terms of here and now, and your own family. You can tell it as (speaking in the first person as you):

I’ve bought you a lot of toys and games, I’ve taken you to Disney Land, and watched over you when you were sick. So all I ask is that you respect my wishes, when I ask you to clean your room or eat your vegetables. It’s not exactly telling you to kill someone, but it is seeing how obedient you can be when you are told to do something that you should be doing anyway. Life is about compromise, give and take. You are rewarded for your good deeds.

That is the lesson as I interpret it, and how I’ve grown to understand it. The “killing” part is really just an emphasis on the extreme of proving ones loyalty. Of course in this day and age, unless your in the mafia, you don’t prove your loyalty like that. You prove it by doing things that you normally don’t want to do (like clean your room, do the dishes, eat vegetables you don’t like, etc…).

You view it this way, not twisted at all. Only twisted minds can put a twisted spin on any story. Much like what I always say about parents who constantly fear and speak of perverts in every corner, and the atrocities they can inflict on their children. Only a perverted mind will think of such perversions, where there is none. Or at the very least none that can be proven or seen. Their fears play those perverted thoughts in their heads over and over again.

@Karen, call me anything you want and make all the precious little comparisons you please. Nothing you can say or do can change the fact that goddies and their sympathizers are routinely going to great lengths to avoid confronting the truth: that the foundation of the JCI religions is beyond despicable.

@Taylor, you can put lemon icing or vanilla icing or any flavor icing you want on a pile of BS and it will still be BS. Any version of that story is abusive to children either because of the content of the original or because of the flat-out attempt to sweep the ugly bits under the rug by the goddies themselves.

@Eric S, nice try. “Respect my wishes” by cleaning up your room, washing dishes, doing laundry, eating your veggies, getting your homework done, etc. is of a completely different order of magnitude than killing and I am amazed that you can even make the attempt to spin it in this way. There are PLENTY of extreme ways to prove one’s loyalty without killing anyone else.

God could have chosen to tell Abraham to do awful things to himself and the story would have been bad enough without having to drag killing children (which the bible is very fond of!) into it. And isn’t simply following the law the best proof of loyalty? Seems the best way to prove your loyalty to traffic laws is to simply obey them, which not only does not kill people but saves them.

And I have never said that i am atheist.

Of course the kids love the darkest and goriest parts of the Bible best. I intentionally sought out non-sanatized children’s Bibles for that reason. Granted, I don’t want them to hear the story of the concubine who was gang raped all night until she died and whose body was then cut in pieces and sent to the various tribes of Israel just yet. That one requires at least a little sanatizing at this age, I think.

I was sad when the tree got chopped down though. Maybe I should have been protected from that?

Never said you were.

@ Anthony
“I would offer my own kid as an example who has never heard this story but no one here would accept that data point (and rightly so!)”

So, really? Just like that you’d offer up your own kid to be abused by other people: “I would also say that the mere exposure to religion by a parent should constitute child abuse and be grounds for removal of the child”

You are an awesomely righteous parent.

Larry Harrison for the WIN!

I was stunned to read through a copy of some original
“Curious George” stories with my kids and discover at one point George felt such remorse for something that the text actually says “he wished he were dead” (or something remarkably similar). Needless to say, that part was taken out of the updated stories. Fascinating!

Lenore, you didn’t really think your little plea to “kindness” and to sticking to the topic of over protectiveness would prevent Anthony from being a complete ass, did you?

Well different people see God and religion differently than others. Although I believe in God, a higher power which directs us in life, by way of self revelation. ie. an epiphany based on something seen or heard. Or a lucky situation, like forgetting your wallet at home going back for it, only to see the bus that you would’ve have gotten on, had you not forgotten your wallet, be in a collision. I still also believe that we are responsible for the things we do. We can’t use religion to make excuses for ourselves. We have televisions shows now, and internet do get our informations. Eons ago, all they had were stories. It’s these stories they used to control the way people think. As it’s true now, it was back then as well, many religions manipulate the stories to “encourage” followers to do what they wanted. That is one of the flaws and negatives of religion. I view religion as SELF revelation, fulfillment, and improvement. I view not the story (although looking at it as a story and nothing more, is pretty entertaining), but the meaning behind it. So when you see the story of Abraham and Issac as a brutality towards children. I see it as a lesson in loyalty and trust. Just like in life, we may not agree with it all the time, but it is what it is, and I for one instead of shunning it, I take what positive aspect of it as I can. In hopes that it would make me a better person than I am. Then share that positive energy with others. I don’t plan on changing the world. Just me, and if I should influence others in a positive sense along the way, then that’s a bonus. I don’t judge others for their beliefs, and I expect the same in return. In the end, we will all answer for our own actions, however that maybe.

OK – I am a GrandMother, and an avid reader myself. Reading graphic stuff is not bad – no matter what sort it is IF and that is a BIG IF – there is someone a kid can talk to about it if they wish. Is that really what people do when they have sex? (yes).. Oh – that is what dead is (upon seeing a dead bird in the yard) (yes, as you can see, all the life is gone – they aren’t just sleeping – no poking it with a stick won’t hurt it)

Lying to children is foolish, they just don’t trust you and figure everything you say is junk. Protecting children from life is just lying, plain and simple. It isn’t smart, nor cute or helpful. It doesn’t matter if is “cleaning up” a story, or if it is covering their eyes so they won’t see something. It is far better to just talk about it, at the time, as a kid asks questions. You don’t have to volunteer information. In fact, it is better if you don’t. Most kids fit what they see and hear into their own understanding. It is a good idea to ask a couple questions to see what they think. If a child can’t handle it – they usually just deny it happened and are done with it till a later time when they have to think about the subject again. As a kid, I swore my cat would never eat the pet bird – it flew away. Later, after I grew up, I admitted the truth – he ate it. But being told the truth at the time didn’t hurt me. I just didn’t like the idea and so denied it.

Children can handle it – Now, it is up to the parents to grow up and handle it too. Life happens, it is not always nice and some things are terrible, but there is much that is nice. Enjoy the nice and learn to deal with the terrible.

“In fact, just a few minutes ago my son poked his nose into a church and came out chuckling at the silly people inside.”

Good to know that you are raising your son to be as big a prick as you. The world can certainly use more pricks.

I am opposed to religion in any form, however, my child is actually taught to respect and not ridicule others no matter what they believe. You can attack the BELIEFS without calling the people child abusers, stupid and silly. I feel genuinely sorry for your son. Not because you are teaching him about the evils of religion, on that I mostly agree, but because you are teaching him to be a rude, bitter man just like yourself. That, in my mind, is the biggest child abuse there is.

I’m curious to if the book whitewashes Ezekiel 23:20. The chapter likens Judan and Israel to two whores who prostitute themselves to the other nations, who are described as being hung like horses.

14 “But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeans[a] portrayed in red, 15 with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea.[b] 16 As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17 Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. 18 When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her naked body, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. 19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 21 So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

I was given a great big, illustrated children’s bible as a five year old. I loved in, in fact I still have it. Not only does it have totally unwhitewashed versions of bible stories, but it has graphic pictures to match! Lots of blood, gnashing of teeth, wailing and agonised expressions – particularly in the Old Testament.

I wasn’t remotely traumatized.

What I wonder is whether these parents who are so horrified at ‘challenging concepts’ in literature similarly monitor their children’s television and gaming habits.

P.S. What would they make of Hilaire Belloc’s classic poems for children – where JIm keeps running away from his nanny and gets eaten by a lion (slowly and painfully), and Matilda, who keeps telling lies, gets burned to death?

I know I probably shouldn’t feed the troll, but I’m curious.

Anthony – If you’re not atheist, what are you, then? For someone claiming to not be an atheist, you sure sound like one.

Larry Harrison! Thank you!!! So funny and well thought out!!
And why are the rest of you bothering with that Anthony guy? He’s a bully! Shouldn’t you just ignore him?

Lenore, I am sorry your post here turned into a religious debate, and as one of the guests here on your site, I am a little embarrassed to see that your very direct and polite request to cease that line of discussion was mostly ignored. Witnessing bad manners, especially when one’s hostess has asked fellow guests to adjust their behavior, is always a bit awkward and uncomfortable. Religion just happens to be one of those things, I guess, that can cause people to lose sight of common courtesy in social situations.
One of my other “pet subjects/projects” has to do with food and nutrition. Believe it or not, that one can get even more heated. (Heh… so, you might want to keep that in mind, should the subject come up.)

As for the actual topic of over-protecting our kids, it drives me nuts every time I see an example of something like this. Since my daughter was born, I have found myself looking through any book I buy her, making sure it is not some overly white-washed or watered down version. Some of the ones bought by other family members were quietly put (very much) away, because the level of sickeningly-sweet fluff that was used instead of real story-telling (or history) was something I thought would actually do her more harm than good.

I got some shocked and even aghast reactions from people (in-laws, for instance) at the fact that I bought and read to her from books of mythology and fairy-tales that were *not* the post-disney softened versions. Some were horrified that one of my daughter’s favorite periods of history had to do with the Tudor era, and that she could rattle off the fates of old Hank’s wives before she started kindergarten (divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived). Her *absolute* favorite bit of history is Ancient Egypt, and I thought we were going to have to call an ambulance when she informed her grandmother that the pharaohs often married their siblings. She was actually bothered when she came across some of the “kinder, gentler” tellings of Bible stories where they glossed over the issue of slavery. “Things weren’t always so nice back then,” she said. “They should just tell it like it was.”

And I do not even know what the rationale is for this sort of cotton-batting approach to teaching our kids. Most of the “new approaches” to parenting are supposedly to answer something that people feel caused trauma in their generation. This is where we now have the extremes of never-ever letting your child cry, not using even “consequences” (much less punishment) in correcting children, not imposing *any* schedules for feeding or potty training or anything (because our convenience is not as important as Not Pressuring The Children, Ever), and so forth.
So how many people were traumatized so badly by hearing a sad story or a mention of death that they think our children need to be saved from this? (There is a whole side rant here, that I’ll save for another time, about the fact that these people may, indeed, have Issues… but I don’t think their problems really stem from the very normal parts of childhood they are trying to blame them on, though. It is alway cozy to have something to point to when you are unhappy in life, that proves it is not your fault.)

In ever-softening the world we present to children, all we are doing is creating a greater disconnect between what they are prepared to handle and what the real world actually has waiting for them. A couple of months back, I was waiting at the deli counter at the grocery store, and there was a young girl there with a list from her mother. She was easily at least 17 or 18 years old. When she read off what was on the list and the very nice deli lady asked her a question about how she wanted it, it wasn’t just confusion in her reaction… she *panicked*. She looked like she was going to break down and cry. I see this constantly in the young adults around me, when they are faced with anything unexpected or new… they cannot cope, even with the simplest things in life. And when there is an actual crisis or tragedy..? It’s a complete breakdown, and I have heard from some of my younger acquaintances that it is considered pretty normal to worry that someone will actually commit suicide if they wreck their car or fail out of school or lose their job. It doesn’t always happen, but they feel it is just automatic to start watching someone in those situations.

And, you know… while I got disapproving looks for giving my daughter the “too sad” or “too harsh” versions of fairy tales, because it is assumed that kids are not capable of handling real feelings or complex ideas about life and death, everyone else has the news droning on endlessly in the background, until the kids don’t even hear anymore the endless stream of deaths, war, crimes and accidents. So… they are not supposed to learn these concepts in a way they can process and accept and come to really understand, but they can be made numb and oblivious to endless streams of horrors and tragedies.

Sounds like the recipe for a generation of sociopaths, to me.
Bonus that they’ll be sociopaths who were “protected” from ever experiencing the ups, downs and difficulties of life in order to learn any practical problem-solving skills.

well gee, if it can make it all the way into the bible, then why not the Constitution, the yellow pages, and next week’s Pizza menu? um?
I would suspect that the original intention of the post, in keeping with the general flavors of the recipe, was to have a deeper look into this manic and obsessive need to create a Walt Disney world to replace the ah, unfortunately all-too-real world we actually have to live in.
Media exists to be manipulated – that is the human response…talntalizingly tempting to the most moral of realists, I’m afraid.
One suspects that overindulgence produces strange by-products, such as the aching need to air-brush out the blemishes so as to not startle the kiddies. (something in that, I think.)
Just as a playboy centerspread can sort of resemble some weird overbred, thoroughbred, cornfed pouffed and powedered fantasy hardly bordering on the real and true – fantasies spring from the hearts of the stressed and strapped , souffles for the soul…not sure if it’s human or not.
A child’s tear is just something to tissue off and replace with a cookie – it’s salt water, after all – not blood.

My boys (almost 5 and 3) both know that things die, and things live. When you eat meat, you are eating an animal that was once alive. Their father hunts kangaroos for food, and they know, dad kills it, skins it, and we eat it…..
They also know that people die. For various reasons. My grandfather passed away recently and the amount of comments my kids got from others was a bit shocking “he has gone up to the clouds” “he has gone to have a long sleep forever”…… love my kids responses, “no, he died”

For the record, neither are traumatised, or scared of death. It is a fact of life.

Larry- I don’t know what kids would think, but I find your versions terrifying, especially the one with the sensitivity training. Very funny.

Little Red Riding Hood has been altered considerably over time as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Riding_Hood

As I kid, I loved all the stories of the saints, particularly the martyrs. Sure, some of them were pretty gruesome. I mean, who could forget St. Lawrence, who was said to have been slowly roasted over hot coals, and asked to be turned over because he was done on one side! I was particularly fascinated with St. Agnes, who was a 12 year old girl who was beheaded for being a Christian. As a child, this made quite an impression on me. To think that a kid, a little older than me, would defy the laws of Rome for her faith? Woah. Made my complaining about having to get up for Mass on Sunday seem a little petty.

My kids have asked to hear the story of St. Maximillian Kolbe about 50 times. He took the place of another man who was slated to die in a WWII concentration camp. This led to a long discussion about why it is wrong to single people out for their religion, about bravery, about doing the right thing even when it is hard and dangerous. These are lessons they are not going to learn from Barney and Spongebob.

Jerome – The daughters loved their father so much they wanted to spend extra special time with him! Is that where the family bed concept came from? 🙂

I do think that overprotection is only one reason why religion (and other) stories are watered down. The other reason is that there is an agenda to make children think the way the adult writers think. Neither is acceptable.

If the Bible (or any other book) is unacceptable for a specific child at a specific age, wait until the child is ready for it, and focus on other books. It’s not like there aren’t enough good children’s books out there.

You know, after reading the comments here, I suddenly don’t feel so bad using The Lord of the Rings and (to a lesser extent) Eragon as stories to tell him as I put him down for naps or bedtime. It’s all from memory, so I end up leaving out a lot and mixing stuff from the books and the movies, but still.

@Donna – there are times when it is best to not feed the trolls and there are times when it’s appropriate to stand up and shout down the loud mouthed lout who is intentionally trying to start a fight.

Thank You.

@SKL – I think that the problem is that abuse is sometimes like porn – “you know it when you see it.”

A teen who is physically beaten when she doesn’t bring home the cash from her part time job as a waitress so her dad can sit around watching cable and drinking beer is different from a teen who contributes to the cable bill and who, independent of that, got slapped for having an out of control screaming fit at her mom. But it’s hard to put that subtlety into objective law.

Consider the parent who quietly but constantly attacks their kid’s sense of self by calling the kid stupid, saying that the kid will never amount to anything, etc. Now consider the parent who occasionally yells at their kid for not doing their homework, not cleaning up their room, etc. One of those parents might seem abusive to the occasional observer, but probably not the right one.

BrianJ, I see where you are coming from. But the story mentioned that the mom had slapped the child once in the past. I’m not sure whether that was just the mom’s statement or the agreed fact.

It just disturbed me a lot to see authorities labeling as “child abuse” (bad enough to remove the child) the expectation that a teen pay some money into the family pot.

The question we have to ask ourselves is, “Would we accept the behavior demonstrated by religion if it did not bear the mantle of religion?” For example, would we accept inquisitions, persecutions, etc. between groups of scientists who subscribe to different interpretations of quantum mechanics?

If we would not accept such behavior from any other group then simple logic demands that we should not accept if from religion either. Whatever sanctions and labels we would apply to these other groups must apply to religion. And the simple truth is that any secular person who did all of the things that religion routinely does to children would end up with a needle in the arm or a rope around the neck–and with good reason. So why tolerate it from religion?

The question about whether whitewashing bible stories is appropriate or not diverts attention from the real problem, which is indoctrinating children into a system that continues its 3,000+ year global reign of terror unabated, including:

– Molesting children. The Pew Institute’s own research indicates problems at 95% of dioceses.

– Mutilation of children. From circumcision to infibulation, clitoral castration, etc. religion continues to trump the design of the go it claims to worship./

– Being built on a foundation of attempted murder of a child. Spin the Abe story any way you like and you still end up with attempted murder of a child. The historical argument is bull because it would have god stooping to humanity’s level instead of the other way around.

– Extolling and bragging about countless episodes of mass murder of children.

– Repressing children’s natural urges to the point where they blow themselves up in a futile attempt to get laid.

– Stifling children’s natural thirst for knowledge by filling their heads with lies that have been conclusively disproved.

– Aiding and abetting child suffering by refusing to sanction fundamental reproductive rights to women and families including birth control, family planning, abortion, etc. and by allowing AIDS to spread unchecked by claiming that condoms CAUSE AIDS.

– Persecuting children and their parents by sanctioning and actively abetting witchcraft trials in Uganda and elsewhere.

– Telling children that they are fundamentally flawed and doomed to burn for all eternity because some fictional lady ate the wrong f***ing apple.

– Telling children that unless they follow this particular path in the exact way prescribed, they will burn forever–a fate worse than simply winking out of existence.

– Demonstrating that the path consists of hating and persecuting everyone who does not subscribe to their exact flavor of Kool Aid.

The list goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on.
The pattern is both global and consistent and can be traced directly back to the violent totalitarian nonsense contained in the “holy” books. This has nothing to do with “humans and not the institution itself” and everything to do with the institution and what it does to people.

Presenting this ongoing crime against humanity to children as “the Truth” is unconscionable and should constitute child abuse. Anyone who supports, defends, or excuses this is an accessory to the abuse.

And yet I am the “troll,” “prick,” “bully,” “lout,” and other things because I absolutely refuse to do this to my own child or to condone it being done to others?

You all should be ashamed of yourselves.

You’ re right. I should be nice and genteel and kind and warm and fuzzy and respectful and deferential to this bunch of violent criminals. I am so sorry. I was not thinking.

But please, if you think my words are strong, read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Werleman and others and you will quickly grasp that I am being milder than Ivory soap.

So please dear goddies, forgive me, ask your cross-dressing boy buggerer to light a candle for me and go right on brainwashing and mutilating your children over a bunch of fairy tales.

I’m with Jynet. The problem is not the opinions, it is that there is a time and a place for discussions like this… and THIS IS NOT IT.

*Everyone* who has continued to debate religion after being asked to stop needs to take a look at their behavior. I, for one, do not want Lenore to feel she cannot count on her readers to show consideration and courtesy, lest she decide that she cannot share stories with us freely without risking more incidents like this. She should not feel she has to censor herself on her own site, just because there are those who do not possess the good manners to restrain themselves when asked.

Please. Just. Stop.

If you feel this is important enough to discuss further, remove yourselves and the discussion to another avenue. There are forums out there for just this sort of thing, and there is always private email. If you believe it is something that needs wider discussion, start your own forum.

But, please, stop stepping on the wishes of our hostess and subjecting the rest of us to your lack of decorum.

Just so that everyone knows and is up to speed, Jesus is Not In Canada. He did not pass the requirements for immigration and his refugee status was rejected.

Yes, SgtMom, I tell my kids what war is.

As for Disney, I agree with you, at least on the older films. Was pleased to see, in Pinocchio, a clock that, when it “cuckoo’d,” had a mom vigorously spanking a kid, among other things. Snow White has its scary parts too. I’m not a big Disney fan, so haven’t seen many of their movies, but I’ll agree that Disney probably didn’t invent the idea of namby-pambyizing our kids.

Speaking of family films, I recently bought what seems to be a television series of Black Beauty episodes on DVD. I bought it in a Christian bookstore so I figured it would be family-friendly, as in, the 13-year-olds would not be having sex, etc. Well, I was not impressed, nor were my kids. The teen/tween children in the story were irresponsible, disrespectful, impractical, and slow on the uptake. Quite a contrast to what you’d really have seen in those days. I found myself repeatedly telling my kids, “No way would that girl have really gotten away with that in those days. She wouldn’t dare try, knowing she’d be whipped.” I’m kinda glad that my kids have no desire to watch any more episodes. But kinda bummed that I paid money for that.

KLY – Get the old LIttle House on the Prairie TV shows. They’re awesome. The kids are free-range and respectful. My daughter (13) and I are really enjoying them.

I read the Little House books before the TV series came out. (Got the first book while in KG!) I note that in that first book, when Laura was under 5 years old, she got a spanking from her Pa! I don’t mean to sound like spanking is the end-all and be-all of childrearing, but my point is, hey, little kids could handle pain/fear in those days AND could handle reading about it in the days when the books came out. Other things in the books that showed higher expectations among kids – the time when Laura was shamed for crying at age 7; the long walks to school in the cold; the time Laura, about 8 or 9, got in trouble for playing in a dangerous place (possible only because she had free, unsupervised range of a wide open area); chores and responsibilities and making one’s own toys; and many instances of caring to show respect for the parents.

The LHOP TV series was more humanistic than the books, but still a lot better than today’s shows.

I don’t expect my kids to say “yes ma’am,” but we work on respect every day. And also on not wimping out when they have the ability to do something. Anytime I read or hear “you can’t expect that from a child that age,” I expect it to be BS.

I grew up watching LHOP, having read and reread the books many times when I was quite young. I bought some of the real-life biography stuff and “scrapbook” books (with photos of the people and places mentioned) for my daughter and I, as well. (Btw… there have been discussions and complaints about those books being “inappropriate” and not politically correct. I keep my fingers crossed that our generation has a strong enough sense of nostalgia to keep the “helpful” editing at bay, and that eventually common sense will win out.)

As for the series, I have watched them with my daughter and would consider owning the earlier stuff… heh… but to be honest, some of the over-the-top social awareness commentary that took over the plots of much of the later stuff puts me off a bit. I always liked that the show did not flinch from tackling more difficult subjects, but eventually it just got to be a little much. I remember ending up feeling like I was choking on the too-heavy messages (and watching it again as an adult, I felt about the same way). I think I’ll stick to the stuff that is closer to the books’ actual timeline and dodge the drawn-out-too-long stuff at the end.

Oooh. The Waltons. I always loved that. It’s been so long, it would be like watching it for the first time. Heh.

I know that not everyone does the ma’am and sir thing, especially nowadays, though I have raised my daughter that way because I think being raised that way myself was very beneficial. We’re also just very old-school Southern in certain ways. 😉 What drives me nuts is that kids aren’t even taught to use a basic, respectful “yes” and will just yell out “yeah?” or “huh?” When we have other children here (friends and family), I don’t insist on ma’am and sir if their parents don’t, though I do tell them it is my preference (and by the end, it makes me happy to see that most of them choose to use it with me, voluntarily), but I do expect them to at least answer with a clear “yes” or “no” and some attempt at proper English. It is disturbing how many kids find this a completely foreign idea and have never considered that they should have to watch what they say when speaking to anyone. This includes teenagers I know, and I shudder to think how job and school interviews are going to go for them.

You’d think, with all the one on one time that constant hovering allows for, that there would be time to work on some basic, respectful communication skills, but I guess not.

Oh… and yes… I do love those books for showing what kids can be capable of *and* what they are capable of handling in their reading. It tells about the death of her dog, serious illness resulting in blindness, and consequences and punishment for wrong doing; and they show how children can have (and handle) large responsibilities like chores and helping in a crisis or during hard times, as well as Laura’s own sense of personal responsibility to her family and to living up to the values she was taught.
I’ve looked at some of the modern abridged “taken from” type books and children’s biographies, aimed at about the same age as the original books were to start with… and it is just sad. Running across one of those is how I ended up making sure my daughter had her own copy of the originals, plus some of the supplementary stuff (which also talks about the time period she didn’t write about, and her brother who died).

On one hand, this sort of thing makes me want to think about writing children’s books, or (more likely) encouraging some of the writers I know to do so… but on the other hand, I have to wonder if anything not conforming to the kinder, gentler (bubble-wrap) way of thinking would even get published.

I remember the first time I read “Where the Red Fern Grows”. I cried and CRIED. It was just so very sad when Ol’ Dan and Lil’ Ann died. But you may notice I said “the first time”. I read it a second and third, and then we watched the movie, at school no less. And by then, I was able to watch without melting into a puddle of tears and comforted my crying friends instead.