Dear Principal: Please Get Rid of the Cameras

Thank you, Alex Tabarrok! With you all the way. Just so glad I don’t have to deal with this crap! Sympathies to those that do.

Keep on them. All those measures are insane. You have more understanding and patience than I do. I wouldnt go thru all that to pick my kid up early. I would sit in the car and wait for them outside.

A phone call to the office, “Yes, I am outside, yes I am not coming in. Send out my boy. Thank you very much.”

Your kid, they cannot, I repeat cannot deny you.

Where the heck is that school? Over the top security measures for sure.

My high school tried the whole check in at the office security nonsense on me once when I went to the school shortly after I finished my first degree in music, so I could distribute flyers for private clarinet lessons over the summer. However, the music teachers knew me, and basically told me that the next time I want to visit, I should come in the doors by the music department, because if I signed in at the office, I’d have to STAY in the office, and they’d bring the person I wanted to talk to, to me, unless that person was in class/teaching, in which case I’d have to wait. But then, after that exchange, the office people kind of tacitly admitted that they thought it was silly too, because they knew me from my days as a student there, and remembered me from the mural in the cafeteria that I designed and helped paint the year I graduated, and from seeing my name on various awards around the school. I guess what I’m trying to say is, they knew I was a decent person, and acknowledged that graduating from high school didn’t make me a criminal.

@Emily
But what is to say that you didn’t become a criminal, after high school? Just kidding, just playing.

Unfortunately in some schools it sounds like you are actually at risk of facing an armed guard, if you fail to follow procedure, and risk sending the entire school into lockdown.

The stupid thing is, you cannot prove them wrong. […] We will say that there is no way they can prove it was their security that did that, and they will say we cannot prove it didn’t.

Sarcasm works well.

“Why did we waste money on this? I have a rock in my pocket that keeps away child predators and I would be glad to donate it to the school.”

Also get a copy of the Simpson’s episode “Much Apu About Nothing” and show them the scene with Homer and Lisa and her “Tiger-repelling rock.”

First of all, Warren, you’re right. I feel fortunate that my high school was, and is, relatively reasonable when it came to security/safety measures. We never had metal detectors, and the police officers that were phased in when I was in grade twelve or so, basically acted as furniture (and occasionally extra security at school dances), unless someone actually did something CRIMINAL, like physical fighting, weapons, or coming to school stoned. Normal misbehaviour was handled by teachers and/or administration. Nowadays, after that brief blip of insanity I mentioned upthread, well-known alumni are welcomed instead of being cross-examined. Because of this, I never felt like a prisoner when I was a student at that school, but rather, as a member of a community. When I visit now, I feel the same way, because the overall mentality there seems to be that, at a certain point, a line has to be drawn between protecting students from unlikely things that COULD happen, and allowing them to have a happy, healthy, and positive school experience, that naturally includes some element of risk.

Second of all……this is only somewhat related, but when my brother was in grade six or so, he’d just been shuttled to his third school in as many years, because the Gifted program had moved. I was qualified to be in that program as well, but I’d opted out, because of the constant switching of schools it would have required. Anyway, at some point that year, there was a problem with vandalism in the boys’ bathroom, so the vice-principal’s solution was to remove all the doors from the stalls, and then lecture the boys about how “doors were a privilege.” My mom had words with the vice-principal, who then changed his story and said that the doors had just been taken down to be painted (flimsy excuse; it’d be easier to re-paint the doors without removing them), and then, the next day, the stall doors were back up.

@Suzanne

First I am sorry for you kids. That should not happen.

I have to ask, does this mean you are taking the stance, better safe than sorry?

What you are saying about something being a 100% risk doesn’t make any sense.

If there is only a 5% risk of injury, then the odds are 95% in your favour that you won’t be injured.
If there is a 100% chance of injury, who in their right mind would attempt it. Wouldn’t matter if there were cameras or the national guard. One would think, you wouldn’t do whatever it is.

Even in this school with the all the steps and measures will not protect against attacks. All it will mean is the perp will be in the halls with a photo pass. And lots of cameras to film the carnage.

We as parents have a choice to make, either we accept that in life there are risks, and some of them we cannot predict, prepare or protect against.

OR

We can construct schools, with steel re-enforced concrete, at least 36″ thick. No windows, closed secure ventilation systems, inmate/student movement closely restricted. No parents, volunteers, or outsiders allowed in, ever. No exceptions. All entrances monitored with metal detectors, radiation detectors, and explosive sniffing dogs. Regular armed hallway patrols. Teachers to be stripped searched each and every time they enter and exit a building. Regular head counts. Entrances to be barricaded, much like military bases and embassys on foreign lands. School buses will have drive in, secure bays for loading and unloading of students. Cameras will monitor everything, even while using the restrooms and showers. And so on.

But like any security system, if someone really wants around it, they will find a way.

Bad things happen to good people, people are killed, kids die, and it is all horrible. But contrary to what the media and some people would have you believe, they are not all preventable.

What I mean with 100% is that surely my kids will be smacked by teachers at some point in their years at school. And that is ridiculous to me. That is not a ‘risk’ anymore, but a fact. My oldest daughter simply shrugs it off with a ‘that’s how it is’ attitude, and on one hand I’m proud at her for that (that she doesn’t let it get to her), but on the other hand it is sad as well.

I am trying to fight for a change. There is an organization of lawyers in our country supporting the parents in this and they have spoken to the principle on our behalf as well (probably with more force and less emotion than I can manage).
I wish I could move them to another school, but it’s the same at other schools. And homeschooling is illegal here. Not that I could muster up the energy for that!

The principal keeps her stand that nothing like it happens in the school, but all the kids and parents know better. Sadly enough, most parents don’t care.

I have witnessed a smacking with a ruler that just made me sick. Unfortunately, I did not have my phone with me to catch proof, and by the time I had run to my car and back, it was over. That teacher, however, knew that I had seen it, and she left the school two weeks later.

Now, the principal has promised me to install CCTV in the classrooms of the little ones (Pre-school) who cannot speak for themselves. I won’t be surprised, however, if recordings are not made or disappear.

In the mean time, yes, my kids will have to go back to that same school and fight the system with me. And I can only hope that it will make them stronger.

I don’t want my kids to feel like they go to a prison and are guarded by ‘Big Brother’, but I do want the teachers to feel that they are watched at all times. Every coin has two sides.

—

I do agree with your ‘free range kids’ idea, but am not sure where to draw the line at acceptable risk and risk that is not acceptable.

Here, toddlers play next to a busy road without pavement, parents drive with babies on motorbikes, and leave two-year-old kids alone in the sea while they buy lunch.
Of course, they think that I am crazy getted worked up about a teacher handing out a smack. It won’t kill them.
Today I took my kids off a ride on the fair grounds, because I saw that the (open) rails of the rides were powered by 220 V with jumper cables connected to a generator. They were upset, because all the other kids got to go on that ride. Where is my limit?

Not just at schools, but everywhere I wonder about the effectiveness of requiring IDs. I am 100% sure these systems are not linked up to ay official sources that runs any sort of check. I guess if they actually write down the info, if something happens they can use the information to catch someone later, but it still does no good as a preventative measure. The worst are the places that ask for ID, but don’t even write down the info. What good does looking at my ID do? Yep I am a person with an ID, and that does what?

@Suzanne

Your situation is unique. Assaults by teachers in North America are handled quite differently, by the law and by parents.

Personally speaking. A teacher assaults my kid, they best hope the police get to them, before I do.

I to, have let my toddler, around two, play in the sand knee deep in water, while I was getting something from the car, or food truck. I could see them at all times, and also judged the distance I would have to cover as within my range. Again, a judgement call. I know my abilities and my kids capabilities. Really wouldn’t bother me to lose my fries and gravy in the sand, to make that mad dash.

Back to the assault at the school. I would not subject my kid to that. If the principal isn’t doing anything, go to law enforcement. The media. I think you said you were out of country, so get the embassy involved. This is serious.

Thanks Warren,

I’m not from the US, and cannot imagine what it would be like to live in a country where on one hand teenagers are driven to school by parents and watched at all times, while on the other hand kids get killed in mass shootings.

I’m living in Thailand, where people pretty much still take care of their kids as if we were in the ’50s. Kids in the back of a pickup truck, seat belts and helmets are virtually non-existent, kids playing next to busy roads, street dogs, etc. But that combined with the technology and speed of today’s world.

People here think I am crazy with my car seats, never allowing my kids on motorbikes, and joining them in the pool instead of giving them inflatable wings and dunking them in. Sometimes I do think that I am crazy, because to most kids not much happens. However, there is a high rate of freak accidents here involving kids and vehicles or power cables.

My kids (like anyone in the world) do not want to stand out and be different. My main worry is not making them into fearful children, but that they will become like I was as a teenager and do everything that is not allowed anyway, but then behind my back. I survived my childhood, but I do know that I did take unnecessary risks back then.

Sorry Suzanne, spent so long writing the above that I missed your post! Have only been to Thailand once, and then only to the southern part, but seen lots of the ‘babies on bikes’ stuff….Six or seven on a moped when I first was in Malaysia, seems to be down to only 3 or 4 these days, and then just in the back streets, progress maybe! Hope it begins to happen in your country.

You write like a Westerner – did you study overseas? None of my business, of course, just curious :-).

I agree with much of what you wrote about. Security cameras will help identify someone after they have committed a crime, they don’t deter crime or stop a crime that is happening.

Security cameras don’t make anyone more secure, they just make people more identifiable.

Wonderful letter! I will steal the term, “Security theater.”

Also it is good you pointed out the harm such “security” could cause. It is a good reply to the line, “If it saves only one life it is worth it.” That line can snuff the life out of life. Why ban sleds? “If it saves only one life it is worth it.” Why ban baseball bats? “If it saves only one life it is worth it.”

I understand it was deemed a fire hazard to tape crayon pictures on the walls of classrooms. Paper and wax, you know. Dangerous stuff. But when I tried to find an example in official national records a single fire in a school, involving crayon drawings on a wall, I couldn’t find one.

Guess where most school fires start. The science lab? The kitchens? No, the bathrooms.

It is not only due to illegal smoking, but often such bathroom fires are started on purpose. Light the toilet paper, alarms go off, and you get to skip Math Class.

The year I investigated had roughly 5000 bathroom fires in schools across the USA. (Sorry, I can’t recall the year, but it was around 2005.)

Such behavior tends to suggest anger and resentment in our youth. It will not make that anger and resentment less to take their crayon drawing down as a “fire hazard.”

No crayon drawing on a wall has done the damage taking them down has done. We need to point out the that sort of damage, each time we hear the line, “If it saves only one life it is worth it.”

@Warren – please don’t tell me you think all countries enforce every law in their books. I doubt very much that Canada does. We certainly don’t. And a country would be nuts to involve its embassy in a simple thing like a child being slapped. Slapping might be seen as ‘assault’ in parts of the West – in much of the world it’s just good child discipline. I’m sure Donna, for example, has at least heard by now of the multiple uses for the sasa broom…

Not surprised really that you don’t give a damn about race relations, and how the world views North America. Your attitude seems par for the course among a lot of those inhabiting your continent, which is why Westerners are viewed poorly in many places.

Your attitude, as long as you remain in your own country, is absolutely your own business. Once you step outside of there, you become an ambassador of sorts, whether you like it or not. And also whether you like it or not, your actions can impact on way more than just you and your family.

Not that that appears to be something that would bother you. But if you do choose to travel outside of North America, I hope I’m wrong about that.

“Suzanne also stated it is against the law, just not enforced. In that case the embassy is duty bound to help.”

No it’s not. An embassy has absolutely no control over which laws the host country chooses to enforce and how.

When you travel to another country, you are the subject of its rules, customs and laws. Your embassy is absolutely not going to bail you out if you violate those rules, customs and laws and find yourself in deep do-do. In fact, they cannot. It is completely against international law. Your embassy can speak to people and put political, financial or publicity pressure on your behalf (something they will not do for kids being slapped in school) but ultimately you are 100% subject to the rules, laws and customs of the country you are in.

It sounds to me that Thailand culture allows for the smacking of kids in school regardless of any law to the contrary. You can choose to accept that or you can choose to never enroll your children in school in Thailand. You, a Canadian, can’t go into Thailand like a bull in a china shop and demand that Thailand change its culture to fit your wants. And if you do try to do so, you may end up in trouble and your embassy is not going to bail you out. It is really that simple. Thailand doesn’t actually care what Warren or Canada thinks about its culture. Thailand doesn’t actually care what Warren or Canada thinks about smacking school kids. Thailand is not going to change its culture for Warren or Canada. You can think whatever you want about Thailand and its culture but the only thing you can do about it is stay away (Well, you can also get a job with a human rights agency and work towards change in the Thai culture but somehow I don’t think that you are going to do that).

@Warren and Donna–I think Suzanne might have a few options in between “letting her daughter get slapped for the good of race relations,” and “taking it up with the Canadian embassy in Thailand,” or “ending up in a Thai prison for ‘taking care’ of the offending school teacher.” What would she do if this was happening back home in Canada? She’d probably have a talk with the teacher and/or principal, mention the handprint-shaped bruise she saw on her daughter’s thigh, that wasn’t there that morning, but was there after school (bonus points if she photographed it as evidence), and ask to spend a day observing in the classroom. She’d probably also go into that conversation angry, but at least trying to stay composed, and instead of being all “Mama Bear” from the start, she’d probably give alternatives, such as “You can give Junior a time out if she misbehaves, but please don’t hit her.” So, I think it’d be a good idea to at least try that approach here, because it might work. If it doesn’t work, then Suzanne can go above the school’s heads, but that shouldn’t be the first resort.

@Donna–I know that other cultures are different from Canada, but I figured that, if Suzanne could speak to the school officials without sounding angry or judgemental (which would be difficult after seeing that level of bruise inflicted on her child by a teacher), then it might work. I was thinking that it might be best not to phrase it as “hitting is wrong,” but rather, the same way you’d ask for anything else for your child, such as, “Please don’t include my child in sex ed, because I’d prefer to have that conversation with her at home.” In other words, the formula of “I know you usually do X, but for my child, I prefer to do Y,” might work, if Suzanne can maintain her composure throughout the exchange, difficult as that may be.

Also, if there are no other schools that Suzanne can enroll her kids in, where the teachers don’t hit the students, and homeschooling is illegal in Thailand, then wouldn’t the school have to accommodate Suzanne and her kids somewhat, since they don’t have the option to find another school with a different policy? It seems strange that homeschooling would be illegal in Thailand, but hitting children is okay, even for teachers,, because they’re effectively allowing teachers to make a “parenting” decision by hitting kids, but not allowing parents to make a parenting decision to keep them away from the school environment where the hitting happens. I’m all for free range, but I still don’t think that teachers, or Brownie leaders, or Little League coaches, or any third-party adults, should have more say in a child’s life, than that child’s parents or guardians.

@ All of you willing to wait and see, or just accept as part of the culture have lost all my respect, and have no credibility with me anymore. I used to disagree, and yes get passionate, but still had respect for you as people.

But if you are going to tell me, that you feel okay with someone slapping you child? Then you are just as bad as the idiot laying a hand on the child. A god forbid you slap mine, because I am not nearly as tolerant or stupid to allow you to get away with it.

To answer the what if in Canada………… Face to face with the principal demanding the teachers job. If the principal refused in anyway shape or form, I would get the Ontario Provincial Police involved and press charges. This is black and white, no grey area. You do not hit my kid. And anyone that allows other adults to assaualt their child is sick.

If you are in a culture where you cannot do anything about it, then get your kids out of the school immediately.

I cannot believe the people in here that are willing to let their kid be hit. This isn’t falling off a swing or tripping on first base. This is physical assault of a child by an adult. It left a hand print untill after school for crying out loud.

@ Emily – Again, cultures are different. Western society has a very individualistic mentality in which the individual family unit is placed above the collective and the individual person is placed even above that. That is the complete antithesis of many non-western cultures. They view the collective as far more important than the individuals that make it up. There is also great deference expected to elders and people in power such that a parents wants for their children are subservient to the culture, family elders and chiefs.

It is difficult to understand the difference and how it plays out if, as I suspect, your entire experience has been in western cultures. You are trying to view a non-western culture in a very western way. I am not particularly familiar with Thai culture, but it may not have the same ideals, cultural norms, societal structure and family dynamics as you are presupposing all cultures to have. I would never assume that problems in another culture could be addressed in such a very western way. It may be possible and throwing the idea out there is fine but not in such a “this is what you should do” way that assumes all people view the world through the same filter as Canadians.

@Warren – please stay in your little conclave. You obviously are not prepared to accept that people think differently from you. A shame I’ve lost your respect, but then, really, what does it matter at all? At all? Not in my part of the world….

And as for getting the kids out of school immediately, did you read what Suzanne wrote? Homeschooling is not legal in Thailand. But of course Warren, who runs his world, wouldn’t care about things like that. You would remove your child, and then whine when the local police turned up to jail you. After all, your precious Western individual rights have been violated.

Gee I’m sick of your sort of abysmal ignorance. No wonder the world is in such a mess.People like you aren’t prepared to accept that the world doesn’t revolve around you and your petty little vision of the way life should . You’re almost as bad as these Muslims who practice ‘honour’ killings in Western countries. Expecting other countries to bend to your way of life.

@Donna – so true! Yes, I had forgotten the women, LOL!

Thank God that, as a teacher, I was considered almost a goddess when I taught Island kids. Watched some of those mums going up against each other, and it wasn’t pretty…!

Never mind. At least, at 6′ 2″, there would enough left of Warren to provide a decent meal in the umu. Though in Malaysia he would go further. All the little bits he’d be chopped into would fit nicely with vegetables in the wok. The only question left would be, do Canadians go better with noodles or rice?

Ta for lightening the discussion again 🙂

@Emily – First, it would be highly unlikely that a Samoan parent would care about smacking. It is 100% accepted in the culture. Even if a Samoan mother did care, family status will come into play as to whether the parent would talk to the school. A family of low status will never deal with a family of higher status as an equal. A family of high status will never put up with a lower status family questioning them. This will carry over into a school setting. Palagi families would not be limited by this but almost no palagi children attend Samoan schools.

Children in Samoan culture are not viewed the same way as children in western cultures. Samoans have children because birth control is not culturally acceptable and they need workers, not because they have a desire to raise children. In fact, something like 40% of Samoan children live outside their biological homes and the percentage of grandparents raising at least one grandchild is near 100%. It is common for kids to float from house to house within the family, depending on who wants or needs them around at that time.

And control extends well into adulthood. Parents completely control the lives of their adult children. And parents are controlled by many levels of matai (chief). There is a family matai, a talking chief and a head chief. All of whom can tell you to do X with your children and expect you to listen.

Samoan culture is becoming more westernized due to extensive settlement in New Zealand, Australia and the US so this doesn’t hold true for every family but is the traditional Samoan culture.

“and,” not abed.

@Emily – in lots of cultures, parents aren’t actually in charge of their kids. Even here in New Zealand, Maori grandparents up until recently had more say than the parents in, among other things, the name of the child and who raised the child. And the so did the eldest in the generations.My grandmother had more over her sisters’ and brothers’ kids than they did themselves. Her mother took and raised one of her cousin’s kids as soon as it was born, because the child’s grandparents agreed. The mother had no say at all. And while it doesn’t happen so much now, it certainly isn’t unheard of for kids to be passed around the family.

In Samoa, too, teachers and headmasters are often ‘gods’. No one would think of going against them. And Samoans are certainly not cowards. They simply have a culture of respect for elders and authority.

Like much of the world before the 60s, when Westerners suddenly decided that only the self and the rights of the individual trumped the good of the family, community or nation.

It might sound like some of these cultures don’t ‘think’, because it doesn’t occur to them to question the sorts of things we think are wrong. But then, why does it not occur to us to arrange marriages? Many of these marriages appear to last longer than love marriages. Why should parents have all the say over their children? Generally in the West we think they should, but why do we think that way? That idea is certainly not universal.

As for politely talking to the teacher, in Suzanne’s case, that may not be a bad idea, and it sounds like she might have approached the school. If a similar thing had happened in Malaysia, and if I felt that possibly the teacher had overstepped the mark, (eg the issue might be language-based, rather than non-compliance on my child’s part) personally I would not have gone in myself, because as a woman I know that I would not get the same level of respect as my husband. My husband, both as a man and as a native speaker, would have been better at dealing with any issues. As is normal in a Muslim country. In Suzanne’s case, maybe the same thing applies, though I don’t know enough about Thai culture.

@hineata – Yep.

I do find it interesting that such vigor was given against smacking children since it was par for the course in even western societies just a generation or so ago, and is still practiced by many in western cultures, at least in the US anyway. I am not saying that it should still be done. I’ll leave that decision to individual families. I just don’t get the outrage over other cultures still following a practice that had widespread use everywhere just a couple decades ago.

@Donna and Hineata–Okay, fine, I didn’t necessarily say “parents,” but I don’t think that a child’s school, or peewee soccer coach, or ANY adult who hasn’t specifically taken on the responsibility of raising said child, should have more say in his or her life, than the people who have, who could be the parents, grandparents, or whoever’s acting as the child’s main guardian(s). So, in this case, it’s Suzanne. She’s the guardian of her children, she’s chosen to raise them herself instead of farming them off to their grandparents or other relatives, so she should make the parenting decisions, not her kids’ school. Asking the school not to spank her kids isn’t “criticizing parenting skills,” because while the school may be entrusted with the kids’ care during the school day, there are still boundaries, that only the parent/primary caregiver can cross.

Besides, when you go to another country, that doesn’t mean you have to start doing everything the natives do, all the time, or else you’re being “insensitive.” When I lived in Australia, I still spoke and wrote like a Canadian (using Canadian English instead of Australian), I loved body boarding, and I even learned fire twirling, but I was indifferent to cricket or footy, and, try as I might, I couldn’t stand Vegemite, or any similar products. In other words, I lived my life as I saw fit, and nobody minded, as long as I was considerate of others. So, I don’t think Suzanne saying, “I want to raise my own children” is entirely unreasonable, even if she’s a Canadian living in Thailand.

As for the “woodshed” thing, okay, fair point, parents used to spank their kids even in North America until maybe 40 or 50 years ago….although, if the child had already been punished at school, it seems like a moot point. However, the question of “to spank, or not to spank” at home, was still up to the parents, and it was still clear that the parents were raising their kids, and not the schools. I don’t know exactly what caused schools to make the shift, but maybe it was from parents deciding that they didn’t want to spank their kids, and having some straight talk with the school officials, and telling them that they didn’t want them to spank their kids either. In other words, change doesn’t happen unless people speak up. That doesn’t mean going for the nuclear option the first time, but the school isn’t even going to know that Suzanne (or whoever) has any objection to using corporal punishment, if she (or whoever) doesn’t say so.

Also, let’s talk about terminology for a second. A slap that’s hard enough to leave a bruise the shape and size of an adult’s handprint, on a three-year-old’s thigh, is well beyond spanking, and firmly into the category of “child abuse.” When you think of the relative sizes of a toddler and adult, an adult’s hand would cover a good part of the surface area of the child’s thigh, and that really isn’t okay. I can’t help wondering, how do adults in these cultures teach kids to resolve their conflicts peacefully, using their words instead of their hands, feet, and fists, if they themselves hit children for misbehaving? What I wonder most of all is, how do they convey the message of “pick on someone your own size” when they routinely inflict physical pain on people a fraction of their size? Culture or not, all I’m seeing here is a never-ending cycle of violence, that’s propelled by unquestioning acceptance. If enough people question it, and object to it, then it could change.

Warren – All I can sag is LOL.

@ Earth W, we’re not talking about schools in America, where you don’t appear to be able to look at kids the wrong way as a teacher without getting into trouble.

@Emily – I think we might be talking at cross purposes. Kids in Island and, to some extent Maori, cultures, are not ‘farmed out’. They grow up with whoever the elders dictate because this is the way they live, not because parents are irresponsible.

We don’t have to give up our whole culture to live in someone else’s, but depending on where you are, you have to expect to give up varying amounts of it. In Malaysia, for instance, life is easier in the areas I usually frequent if I keep my arms and legs reasonably well covered, and sometimes it is best to wear the baju kurung, the long-sleeved native dress (also cooler, believe it or not). Micro shorts are totally the wrong idea. I don’t consider this an invasion of my rights, but the polite thing to do.

Same with food – we eat whatever the locals eat, mainly because my husband is a local. Very occasionally this has included things like snake. It often involves eating in places with filthy floors, drains running down the middle or the sides, and occasional rats sitting at the edge of the eating area. No point in protesting any of this – no one will listen, and neither do they need to. Their country, their rules. I don’t like it, and if I have a choice I try my very best no to eat in this sort of establishment, but sometimes I have no choice, except to grit my teeth and bear it.

My kids have never had to deal with schools there, being foreign born, but if they did, we would have to do the same with the schools. Politely protest, if we didn’t like something, but then either put up with what was happening or remove our children (and we would be luckier than Suzanne, because in Malaysia homeschooling is vaguely legal). Suzanne probably doesn’t have that choice.

You actually do sometimes have to compromise on your culture to live in someone else’s. Think of the level of compromise First Nations people have to put up with in Canada, Aboriginals in Australia and Maori in New Zealand. Or the Orang Asli in Malaysia. Indigenous people compromise to varying degrees every day of their lives, as do immigrants from non-English speaking backgrounds coming into our countries. And think too of how much most of us don’t like the groups of immigrants who refuse to compromise (various groups of Muslims spring to mind here). We don’t like that too much, do we? Or at least, people here don’t, and from media reports it doesn’t sound like people in other countries are exactly understanding, either.

“Generally,” not genealogy. My auto correct is going crazy today.

@Hineata–I do know about the issues with the First Nations people in Canada–one of my friends from Western told me that her grandmother had been abducted and taken to a residential school, where all the Ojibway-ness was beaten and brainwashed out of her. Also, one of my professors in Australia was an Indigenous Australian, and he actually witnessed the Invasion happening–he saw his cousins being taken away, while he hid in the cornfields, wanting to cry out, but having to stay silent, so he wouldn’t be taken too. However, that was in the past, and it’s 2013. Canada has moved on, and taken steps to reconcile with the First Nations people, and Australia has established a formal Reconciliation Day, and given the Indigenous peoples reparation money for their trauma. It’s not enough, but they’re getting there–in fact, my professor said it wasn’t even about the money, or the day, and he didn’t want a public show of pity; he just wanted to open the lines of communication, so that society doesn’t repeat its mistakes, and that applies to every country that experienced something like the Invasion.

I also know about giving up “some” of your culture in deference to the locals, but I didn’t think it was a “let strangers beat your child” kind of thing; but more of a “no tank tops in the Vatican” kind of thing. The latter is reasonable, but the former is not. As for eating what the locals eat, in my case, that wouldn’t necessarily always be an option, because I’m vegan. So, no, I wouldn’t eat meat to be polite, and I wouldn’t eat in a filthy restaurant with disease-laden rats either. If I was travelling in a developing country, I’d probably pack bottled water (or Diet Coke) and Clif bars for such situations, pretend not to be hungry at the restaurant, and then eat my packed snacks later, the same as I’d do in any situation where I was invited for a meal that I couldn’t eat, with people I didn’t know well.

I haven’t been to a developing country (yet), but I’ve been to Italy (slightly different standards for hotels, etc., than we have in North America, and some of my friends had problems with bugs in their hotel rooms), and New Orleans (we had to walk down Bourbon Street, and I think I just stared at the ground the whole time, to avoid having a panic attack), and of course, I lived in Australia for two years. I’ve also been to California, and I lived in Quebec while I was at Bishop’s (of course), but the only real culture differences there were the “smoking” culture, the fast, slangy “Quebecois” French versus the Parisian French I’d been taught in school, and the proliferation of greasy food, like poutine. Anyway, I managed to cope in these places, by simply embracing the aspects of the culture that worked for me, and not the ones that didn’t. So, if I didn’t want to eat something, I didn’t eat it. If I didn’t want to go inside a building that reeked of cigarette smoke, or was too noisy/crowded, and would set off my anxiety, I didn’t go in–I’d wait outside if I had to. Nobody thought of me as a “rude North American,” because I didn’t make a big to-do about any of these things, and since I didn’t look any different from the “locals” (except in Italy), I got away with it. I don’t even entirely conform to the Canadian culture either–I don’t like hockey, or poutine, or beer, but that’s okay, because Canada is a place of diversity. Most other cultures like Canadians, so I feel lucky in that regard, but it never occurred to me that I’d have to stop being who I am just because I was in another country. I guess the International House experience kind of spoiled me.

@Donna – you’re expressing it do much better than me today.
Am far too emotional about this sort of thing, but it does make me cross the way some of us Westerners refuse to respect other cultures. The number of times, for example, I’ve seen female tourists dressed in short shorts and singlet tops in Malaysia, an Islamic state, is really embarassing. But, of course, it is their ‘right’ (sarcastic sigh), so who are the natives to dare to complain?

Off topic completely, but do fafafine exist in A. Samoa as well as ‘Samoa’ Samoa? An American friend of mine working in a predominantly Island school here had never heard of them, and thought I was joking when I explained why there was a very pretty cousin (I think) with a very deep voice picking up one of her students from school.

Always assumed it was part of the culture across the Samoas, but maybe I’m wrong. So, do you have come across any in your part?

@hineata – Fafas do exist in A. Samoa. They are quite common and fully accepted as part of the culture.

Early in our time here, I took Maya to a fafa pageant. About half way through, one of the contestants ripped off her shirt. Obviously there was nothing there. Maya looked at me and said “is that really girl?”

For those still reading fafafines (fafas) are Samoan men who dress as women. They are kinda a mix between drag queens and transgendered. Other than those who compete in the pageants, they are not outlandish like drag queens. They simply dress like normal Samoan women. But they are not truly transgendered in that they are women trapped in men’s bodies and want a sex change. Openly gay men who are not fafas are extremely rare in Samoan culture. Interestingly, it is my understanding that fafas exclusively have sex with “heterosexual” males (gay men on the down low). They do not form romantic relationships with each other.

@Donna–I’m just saying that I haven’t been to a developing country; not that I planned to go. If I did visit a developing country, it’d probably be to visit friends from International House, who already know that I’m vegan, don’t think I’m rude (otherwise they wouldn’t be my friends), and live in the more “developed” parts of these countries. For example, my friend Martin is from Kenya, but he lives with his family in an apartment in the nicer area, although he’s walked through the slums on many occasions, and he’s been robbed there a few times too, by people who have no choice but to turn to a life of crime, because the Kenyan economy is so bad. Also, getting back to the food issue, I guess that’s another point–I don’t know if it’s a Canadian thing, or just how I was raised, but I’ve always believed that the company and the conversation is more important than the food, and it’s rude to scrutinize what your guests eat. So, complaining or sulking would be rude, but just not eating much/at all, wouldn’t be.

But, anyway, not all people who live in developing countries are poor to the point that buying/making someone a meal would make or break them–in fact, one of my favourite “Martin” moments at International House was when I myself was going through tight times, didn’t have money for much of anything, and the cheap flip-flops I’d bought at the school store had fallen apart, been duct-taped back together, and fallen apart again. A few days later, Martin just happened to come into possession of a pair of black women’s Skechers sandals that were in my size. He told me that another friend didn’t want them anymore, and did I want them? I still have them now, and they’re my favourite summer shoes, not just because they’re sturdy, and they go with everything, but because I know that Martin must have bought them for me, but didn’t want to embarrass me by saying so outright. At the time, I was working as a mentor, and therefore, I didn’t want people to know when something was wrong in my life. Also, it’s kind of funny, because Canada has several “foreign aid” programs, to provide food, education, clothes, shoes, etc., to needy people in deveolping countries like Kenya, but at International House, a Kenyan person turned that right on its head by buying shoes for a Canadian.

As for Suzanne’s issue, I still think she’d be okay if she raised the matter politely, because she’s not telling anyone else how to raise their children; she’s just asking to be allowed to raise her own children in the way that she sees fit. If changing schools would change the situation, I’m sure she’d have done it by now, but that isn’t an option, because all the schools hit kids. If homeschooling was legal in Thailand, I’m sure she’d have looked into that, but it isn’t. So, the only option left seems to be to speak up.

Actually, Warren, just so we’re clear, I wouldn’t force my hypothetical future child to play outside, AND I wouldn’t allow their teachers to hit them.

And, BTW, “refusing” can mean “quietly not eating.” While you’re right that in North America and probably most of Europe, it’s considered rude to overconcern yourself about what your guests are or are not eating, in other places it’s the opposite — it’s the guest’s duty to receive enthusiastically and not to do so is what is rude. That’s not because it’s all about the food rather than the company, but it’s assumed that the act of sharing should be met with the act of receiving gratefully, both in word and action, and that’s part of what it means to be “in company” appropriately. It seems unfair to someone who really can’t eat or can’t stand the food, but adjusting to things like that in other cultures is extremely important.

“As for Suzanne’s issue, I still think she’d be okay if she raised the matter politely, because she’s not telling anyone else how to raise their children; she’s just asking to be allowed to raise her own children in the way that she sees fit.”

What you need to understand, though, is what Donna’s saying: asking your child to be treated exceptionally has no place in many cultures. Further, she’s not just asking to be allowed to raise her own children in the way that she sees fit — she’s asking that the teachers not teach in the way that they see fit. From their perspective, it is no different than insisting that an American teacher DOES slap your child if the child does certain things. It is just as abhorrent NOT to smack a child who gets out of line for some people in this world, as it is for us to slap young children across the face. And this isn’t just some out of line teacher, this is a teacher who is functioning in the context of the values of her culture, her training, and the culture of the institution in which she’s employed.

That doesn’t make it right, or something that should not be protested (it would be far better if no child was ever slapped at that school) but it does mean that it’s not just a simple, reasonable request to ask a teacher to entirely invert her own values about how to deal with children on the ground that Suzanne “just wants to raise her child as she sees fit.” From the school’s perspective it’s not about how Suzanne raises her children, it’s about how the teacher does HER job.

Just to see if I was missing the point, I had three moms, my wife, the nurse down the road, and our newest mom on the block.

All of you that will allow a child to be slapped were deemed unfit by all three. The fact that you would stand by and allow an adult to hit you kid was completely unacceptable by all three. One of them also stated that it is the mother’s who need to be slapped for allowing it.

When your kids grow up, and have emotional issues, just tell them its okay. Mommy let it happen so the lady or man hitting you wouldn’t be offended. When your grandkids have bruises, don’t worry about it, because it is normal. Your kids were taught that slapping is a perfectly acceptable form of discipline. Best tell your kids to stay in Samoa, or Thailand or wherever, because if they slap their kids in the west, their asses will be in jail. The judge won’t give a crap, what they do overseas.

Warren, I’ll ask again. Who here would “allow a child to be slapped?”

@Pentamom – Warren is probably referring to me, because if I was resident permanently in a developing nation where slapping a child for disciplinary purposes at school was the custom, then yes, I would allow it. I might politely question the teacher, if I was concerned that the measure was a result of miscommunication rather than naughtiness, but even that would be dependent on the social environment. Because, frankly, I have a much better ability than people like Warren to accept that not everyone thinks the same way. Also, as stated above somewhere, I do not believe slapping to necessarily be abuse, which has obviously got a few peoples’ backs up. That said, I do not slap other people’s children because that is against the law here, and my own I have slapped a handful of times in their entire lives, as only a few times are necessary, if applied properly, and with far more hugs occuring than slaps. And never anywhere else but their thighs and backsides, both appropriate for the purpose.

And interestingly, when I took my children on a bus tour of Europe, their excellent behaviour was much commented on, particularly by a Canadian couple, who noted that they were reluctant to take their grandchildren out to McDonalds, let alone on a two week tour of foreign countries.

Catspaw was saying that the reason why Canadian commentators here in particular might be getting upset is that evidently you have had strict anti-smacking laws since the early 1980s. If that is true, then I begin to have an inkling of why this is such an emotive issue for you all. I must say, though, that I do find it rather hypocritical. The enforced removal of Native Canadian babies from their parents was occuring up until at least the mid 1970s, and y’all are bothered in the extreme by a little physical discipline? Personally I find that bizarre. Which has caused the most longterm harm? And little outrage seems to be coming from white Canadians about that.

The enforced adoption thing came up through papers on indigenous education I’m doing as part of my Masters, and also as the result of an ongoing interest in Eric Schweig, who has my vote for sexiest man alive, LOL!

I mean, he says “all of you that would allow your child to be slapped” which implies a fair number, certainly more than one.

I think many people also make a distinction between spanking — smacking on the backside or thighs — and slapping on other parts of the body. Many more people would tolerate the former than the latter.

@Pentamom – oh, you’re right. I think he is, though, just lumping everyone together. Donna has made it quite clear that she wouldn’t allow that to happen, by saying that she sends Maya to palagi schools.

Samoans particularly do sometimes slap kids around the head, which is actually dangerous, and we used to run education programmes about that, because some of the kids I taught had hearing loss as a result. However the same group of people are also among the most physically affectionate you’ll ever meet, and the same children who are physically disciplined are also subject to hugs and kisses far more often. Very physical people. Very different way of thinking from many Westerners. Not wrong, just different. Heck, if we looked after our elderly like Islanders and Asians do, we’d have far fewer lonely and useless-feeling oldies.

No my motivations have nothing to do with the laws of the land.

My motives come from the ideal that you do not physically abuse children, whether they are your own or someone else’s.

And the fact that any parent is willing to allow another adult leave a handprint on their child wreaks of weakness. Weakness as a parent, and weakness as a human being.

I do not give a rat’s ass if it is Somoa, Thailand, Japan, Germany, France, Chile or the middle of nowhere. There is no excuse for hitting a kid. And there is a big difference between a spanking and leaving bruises and handprints. If you cannot tell the difference you are a moron, that needs to take some sort of parenting course.

You want to hit someone, take on someone your own size. You want to hit me, go for it, I’ll smile at you and ask you if that’s the best you got. Hit a kid, and even more so one of mine, I you will know what it is like to be hit. And no I am not a bully, but my upbringing and training tells me to defend those that cannot defend themselves. And if you weak willed moms won’t defend your kids, don’t worry because there are enough people like me that will defend them for you.

” However, she won’t know if there are alternatives, if she doesn’t ask. ”

Correct. So I will say for the third time, of course she should protest and object.

That I’m saying “Don’t assume people will see it your way because it seems plain to you” should not be taken as saying “Don’t try.” But if you go in thinking it’s all so simple because it makes sense TO YOU, you won’t be able to make as effective a case, as if you go in understanding that their point of view is completely different.

Also, totally off topic but related to the ‘bring it on’ comment, muscle mass for muscle mass, if you are a white Canadian, which your attitudes tells me you must be, you would have maybe half the muscle mass of a Samoan your height. In fact, most Maori too.

So please try going up against one (though as Donna pointed out, you wouldn’t get the chance to take only one). Just make sure to film it, so we can have a good laugh.

If you armed yourself with one of those ice hockey sticks you might gain a few seconds advantage – at least until Grandma returns with the kirikiti bat (used usually for Samoan cricket, played by entire villages at a time. Great fun to watch).

“This is more than funny, this is absolutely in the range of whackadoodles. You will not force your kids to go outside at recess(previous posts), but you will allow their adult teacher to slap them hard enough to leave hand prints.”

I assume this is addressed to me and just establishes that Warren has a serious reading comprehension problem since I’ve stated no less than 3 times that I send my child to a palagi-run school to AVOID her being slapped at school.

But we can’t be bothered to do something like read. Afterall, fists, threats, and intimidation are all that are needed in the world to prove that you’re a “man,” not reading ability.

@hineata
Your comments are not even worth responding to, anymore.

@Donna,
Yes I understand you send you kid to that school. But you also demonstrated that you are okay with a kid being slapped as part of one’s culture, and you also stated how funny it was to be so against it, since not so long ago it was accepted in western culture. I find it interesting that you never answered about bringing back carrying sidearms in the street, duals to settle disputes, public hangings, or back to when women were possessions. That was all acceptable in the western world at one time.

Anyone that would allow a child to be assaulted for fear of offending someone or a culture is emotionally and morally weak. No misunderstanding, no nothing.

Anyone that stands by and allows anyone to be assaulted, is weak morally. You can make any arguement you want about culture, religion, geography or whatever you want, it is still weakness and the inactions of a coward.

I really do feel for your kids, and the lack of respect you have for them.

@Warren – that’s amusing, because that’s precisely what my teenager was saying yesterday regarding your nonsense. Unfortunately I was bored at the time, so continued to take the bait, more fool me.

@Donna – personally I’m going to stop now. I have spent far too much time on this individual, who appears to have all the common sense of your average DOC outhouse. Hope you have a good day. You have made many sensible points – thank God at least some North Americans who leave the continent have your sort of sense.

@hineata – There are far more of us traveling out there than there are Warrens. We just blend in instead of sticking out by being obnoxious.

A few years ago, while working in small town, rural Georgia, a new lawyer started working with us. Very shortly after she started working there, we found out that she was a lesbian and her “wife” (same sex marriages are not legal in Georgia) was expecting their first child shortly. Without a hitch in their step, these older, very conservative, very republican women sat down and planned a baby shower. Most people really are more accepting and good than we give them credit for being. Unfortunately, the obnoxious loud mouths control the stage.

@Donna

You are so full of it, your eyes are brown. Allow as compared to fail to stop. Care to respect instead of fear of offending.

Accuse me of having a lack of comprehension. Call me a loudmouth, do or say whatever you want.

If having the courage and conviction to stand up and defend those who cannot defend themselves is being rude and loudmouth, then so fucking be it. I will be loud and rude everyday.
Because cowardly, weak willed and weak minded people such as yourself Donna, are part of what is sick with this world. You are so full of yourself, and how you would take the high road, the diplomatic route and so on. Yet, all you ever do is take it, and never do a damn thing about it. Weak and pathetic, Donna. It took this issue to show, but it has. Your true being. All talk, and no action. I have seen it before, and you are the classic example of it.

And Emily, just for the record, I do not issue threats. I either act, or I don’t. Threats are nothing more than a stupid advanced heads up. As for a teacher, if they hit my kid, well yes physical violence does solve something. The teacher will be unable to assault another student from a hospital bed.

We are not talking about disagreeing with the teacher about a test mark. We are talking assault. Pure and simple. If you cannot get worked up, and protect you child from it. Maybe you shouldn’t be a parent.

@Warren–Really, you’re going to resort to bathroom humour? Anyway, I find that expression insulting, because I actually have brown eyes, not because I’m full of anything, but because I was born that way.

So long Rambo.

Hopefully at some point you’ll be worthy of respect, but I’m not holding my breath. Your poor kids.

@Donna – Maya is so lucky to have a sensible parent. Am sure what she’s learning in Samoa will hold her in good stead for the rest of her life. The earlier a child can learn that the world is not just one way, the better.

Emily – Nobody is saying that you need to eat something and make yourself sick. We are saying that you need to be aware that everyone doesn’t think exactly like you as it concerns food or clothes or just about everything else on the planet.

And many developing countries would have no understanding whatsoever of “vegan.” The idea of choosing to not eat available food is an absolutely foreign concept to people for whom food is/was within recent generations scarce (even if the family you visit is not poor, the culture is based on the masses not the elite). Does that mean that you need to eat? No. It means that you need to take the time to talk and explain to people and not just automatically assume that they have the same mentality towards food as you.

As I said, most people are accepting and good. They want to like you. They want to please you and make you happy if you are their guest. They also like to treat people to their favorite foods. This can be a delicate situation but you are going to completely bugger it up if you just assume that everyone thinks about food the way you do.

@Emily – Your comment proves my point. It is not about someone not understanding what the term “vegan” means. Even after you define the term, there will be absolutely no understanding of why on God’s great earth someone would choose not to eat an available food. Because that is a HUGE unimaginable luxury for many people in the world. The idea that people have enough food in enough variety to simply say “I will no longer eat any animal products” sounds to them like Greek myths sound to us – entertaining ideas but not to believable.

The point is that you can’t approach a situation in a foreign country (again I don’t think Suzanne is foreign to Thailand) as if you are approaching someone from your own country. THAT is assuming that the whole world thinks like you. You have to approach someone from Thailand as someone from Thailand. You have to make them understand why smacking children is wrong within the framework of Thai culture, undertsanding and thought processes and not Canadian culture understanding and thought processes. To do that, you have to understand Thai culture, history, lifestyle, thought processes and accept them as perfectly valid.

Emily, I rejoice there are people like you out there!

@Donna and Hineata–I understand what you’re saying, but as I said before, the chances of me dining with strangers in a developing country, is very slim. If I did visit a developing country, it’d almost certainly be to visit a previously-established friend who lives there, has seen me eating vegetarian or vegan food for two years at International House, and is completely cool with it. That’s what I meant by seeing someone as an individual first, and a nationality second. It’s just as narrow-minded to assume that “No one from X country will understand Y belief system,” as it is to assume that “Everyone from X country must understand Y belief system.” That’s what I was saying from the beginning–don’t assume either party understands everything, ask the appropriate questions, be willing to listen, and also be willing to explain yourself if they don’t understand something about you. Like I said, International House didn’t make me all-knowing about every culture in the world, but it did teach me a lot, and one of those things was HOW to move forward towards gaining understanding of other people’s cultures. A lot of that learning took place on the spur of the moment, around the dinner table, in the living room watching a movie with people, in a my Indian friend’s room while she was showing me her collection of saris, at the beach on a random Saturday afternoon, or in the middle of nowhere during a bush walk.

As for the hitting a child issue, okay, maybe it’s necessary to do some research on Thai culture before the meeting with the teacher/school officials, but that meeting should absolutely still happen, so that you can give the people a chance to understand. Not everyone from the same culture is the same, and two people/families from the same culture might do things completely differently.

For example, my friend Princy and my friend Swati are both from India. Princy’s family practices arranged marriage (with Princy and her sisters being given options, and the ultimate decision being up to them and their potential mates), and Swati’s family doesn’t practice arranged marriage, but Swati told me that her parents are sort of subtly pushing her to marry a person from India. There might be another Indian family that practices arranged marriage the traditional way (as in, the parents choose exactly who they want their daughter to marry, and that’s final), and another that really doesn’t care whether their daughter marries an Indian, a white person, or a Smurf. Anyway, I originally saw arranged marriage as being oppressive, but Princy told me that she actually prefers it that way, because she’s close with her parents, she doesn’t feel that anyone knows her as well as they do, and hey, having them help with the husband-selection process is one fewer decision she has to make, IF she even decides she wants to get married. The methods of arranged marriage have also evolved over the years–according to Princy, there are now arranged-marriage websites, which must make things a lot easier logistically.

Anyway, what I’m trying to say is, I never would have learned all of this if I’d been so worried about not offending people from other cultures, that I never asked about their cultures in the first place, for fear of making a “mistake,” or sticking my foot in my mouth. Likewise, Suzanne shouldn’t be afraid to have that conversation with her kids’ school about the different cultural norms surrounding corporal punishment.

@Hineata–That’s a pretty funny story about the metal tin you thought was an incinerator. As for the “Rambo” thing, don’t worry–I’m all about treading lightly, and seeking to understand the other person’s point of view, EVEN if they did something that I’m not crazy about. Warren is the one who advocates the “Rambo” approach, and he said a few posts upthread that he was leaving this site, although I saw him replying to Lenore’s article about helicopter pet owners, so maybe he didn’t really mean it.

And people who announce their departure from sites like this rarely actually leave.

*I meant to say, I’m really not like Warren, because “really” has two L’s. This board needs an “edit” function

Wow, I guess I missed the part about Suzanne talking to her kids’ school without success, and then consulting a lawyer. My bad……I guess this also means that all of this back-and-forth discussion, and arguing, and “losing” Warren, and explanations of my experiences meeting people of various other cultures at International House, really wasn’t necessary. You’re right, Suzanne does seem like an intelligent and articulate person, and a caring mother, and she’s probably frustrated enough about the whole situation, without us making it worse. I was complicit in that, and Suzanne, if you’re still reading this, I’m sorry.

“The problem I have with people like Warren is that they just want to vent their rage at people and not solve problems. That is why his only solution to every single situation is anger and aggression. ”

And what is particularly hard to deal with in a setting like this one is that he’s not just like that for himself, but then he projects weakness or willingness to put with injustice on behalf of others onto any person whose approach is *to any degree* more nuanced or diplomatic. Even to argue that a less overtly confrontational solution might actually WORK better is to lack the resolve to deal with things and just let yourself, or your kids, or some innocent party somewhere, get steamrolled by the bad people of the world.

Emily, I haven’t been trying to be critical or put you down or suggest that you’re ignorant. It’s just that like Donna, I wonder if you really grasp that, unlike in our multicultural North American experience, “culture” for most people in the world isn’t a matter of trappings of polite behavior or specific traditions,** it goes right to the essence of how people think, how they regard relationships, how they solve problems, even how they view what they themselves and other people “are.” So I’ve just tried to point out that to treat someone as an “individual first” and then putting culture second, might be to completely violate their conception of how people are supposed to interact in the first place. And I don’t think you’re stupid, I think MOST people, including most highly intelligent people, think the way you do. It is, so to speak our “culture” to do so, and really, it’s everyone’s culture to think that the basic assumptions we have about how life should work are generally shared, and it’s only the marginal things that vary among people in different places. But it’s just not so.

**I am not saying that for North Americans, culture is only those things, but that that is how we regard culture, but not only is it not merely that, but other people in the world don’t even regard it that way. Most people don’t even think about the word “culture” that much — it’s just “the way it is,” just like for us, “dealing with people as individuals” is ordinarily “just the way it is.”

It’s hard for me to get worked up about this issue. Cameras are EVERWHERE in our lives. Most office buildings, malls, public buildings, even most streets in urban areas have cameras. Many places that you would never suspect. I don’t necessarily think they are needed in all schools, and they may be a waste of money, but if we are going to start campaigning against cameras, then do it on a larger, societal scale.

And many commenters seem to think that the cameras are to protect the kids against adults and intruders, but, since this is a high school, they are probably mainly to monitor kid on kid behavior. Maybe it doesn’t prevent crime, but it can serve to solve the “who stole my violin” question or the “who is constantly picking on the Special Ed kid who won’t tell but us ‘losing'” his school supplies when he is in the hallway.” I have seen cameras used in both these scenarios. And now that i know that there are cameras in the courtyard at my daughter’s school, I will have her park her bike there. She had a bike stolen (locked) from in front of the school, and the secretary told me where any future bikes should be parked. It might not keep the bike from getting stolen, but it might help it get returned.

ID’s aren’t a big deal to me either. Every place I’ve worked required IDs on lanyards. Why not get the kids used to making sure they have their ID when they come to school? Plus, now that my daughter has a high school ID, she is able to get discounts at stores, theaters and more!

Our high school has several buildings, and IDs are scanned whenever students enter a building. This helps keep attendance stats and can help catch kids who are regularly skipping earlier before they get too behind.

Also, by high school, it can be difficult to differentiate between students and adults. Young adults (recent grads or drop outs) will try to get into the building if they have a beef with a student there, and the IDs help stop that. Yes, it would be great if all staff knew every student on sight, but in a school with 2,500 kids, that’s just not possible. And the IDs help things move more quickly.