Family Online Safety Institute Conference

You’ve got to wonder why this is such an issue…what has changed over the last decade to make young men so much more prone to pornography?

Jan, that statement sounds an awful lot like “with the ever increasing danger of child predators” which sounds really nice, but not based in any fact. Sex crimes and such have been going down over the years. (and there I go, jumping from looking at boobies to sex crimes!).

Hm. the boys who grew up to think rape was ok and sexual objectification of women was da bomb in the 1950s and 1960s lived in a free range society. I don’t think you can connect free range or lack thereof with sexual mores.

@Jan s

“Is it any surprise that they turn to pornography to vent their frustrations. They become masturbation addicts, with hours alone online viewing denigrating materials”

I do not think it is frustration they are often venting.

But enough joking.

As to: “moral degradation of society, damage to relationships, and sexual objectifying of women.”

Pornography does not degrade society, society has demonized pornography. Like with anything if you make it illicit it becomes something that only those who are willing to push the envelope are willing to be apart of.

Pornography does not damage relationships. What damages the relationship is when one person keeps hidden the fact that they enjoy it.

It objectifies women. It objectifies men as well. There is a different kind of pornography for everyone’s taste. I will admit that probably the majority of porno is made to show off the female cast member but also that is majority is not inherently degrading to women.

“It’s becoming more and more difficult for parents to raise their sons to be strong husbands and fathers”

Although not as socially acceptable or expected Women like porno as well. Does porn make women less able to be mother and wives? Liking to watch other people do things of a pornographic nature does not impede on ones ability to love their spouse or children.

I will agree with Jen S.

Sex stimulates the brain, it turns you on. That is what sex is suppose to do. But because you’re always pushing the ‘stimulant button’ with images, such images indeed desensitized from one having a healthy sexual relationship with one’s spouse.

Orgasms stimulate the hormone, oxytocin, aka the bonding hormone. Basically you’re bonding to false imaginary images, not real people. It does impede one’s ability to have a relationship with family.

I say this with personal experience. I use to think ‘all guys looked at porn’ and masturbated. I never liked it as a teenager, but I accepted it because I didn’t want to be a prude. I wanted to be liked and accepted by my boyfriend. Deep down I was constantly compared to ‘those women’ all my boyfriends wanted me to be like them and do what they did.

They would make the same arguments charles made, that it was my fault to feel hurt.

I came to my sense at a rather early age, I only dated men with had real hobbies and interests and respect for women.

I’m grateful to learn how our bodies react to sexual images, so I can better explain why it hurts so much. Porn is like a drug, and men have to keep pushing for more exploitative images to maintain a high.

I wish sex ed, could focus more the anatomy of sex, how the hormones really do indeed affect and put that in context of relationship. Sex education debate has to be more then ‘safe-sex’ or ‘abstinence’.

All the science of human biology points to Jen S’ point of view.

argh… too upsetting staying out of this thread.

“Porn is like a drug, and men have to keep pushing for more exploitative images to maintain a high. ”

Wow… the sexism inherent in this statement astounds me.

Bullshit is all I have to say. Absolute bullshit. The same kind of bullshit that brands all guys as sexual predators.

“They would make the same arguments charles made, that it was my fault to feel hurt. ”

I am sorry you have had bad experiences. But I stand by what I said. It is unfortunate that some people will do bad things and not see the wonder and beauty in front of them.

One of the main themes that courses through much of the discussion on this website is the fact that the majority are often limited in what they can do because of what has happened to the minority.

I am not saying that all pornography is 100% blameless. There is some very violent stuff out there that may or may not contribute to abusive behavior by one person against another. There have been studies that show that violent pornography makes some people want to go out and try it and there are other studies that show that it gives violent offenders a way to work out their kink in private.

Pornography is like guns, drugs, fast-food, salads, rain, puppies and really anything else in the world. In the wrong hands or at the wrong time it can be bad but given the right hands and right time there is nothing dangerous about it.

Guns + hunter looking for food = good
Drugs + patient in pain = good
fast food + person at severe risk for MI = Bad
fast food + starving kid = good
rain + drought ridden country =good
rain + flooded city = bad
Porn + people who would abuse it by using it to make their significant other feel bad about themselves or use it as an excuse to do things to people they do not want = bad
Porn + people who use it to enhance their relationships because they are able to use to enhance stimulation once it is turned off it is done = good

Renee explains well the neuro-chemical realities of porn. It stimulates the pleasure centers of the brain, which can be addicting. Eventually, these centers become desensitized to previously arousing stimuli, and will require a larger dose, so to speak, in order to obtain the same high. That often comes in the form of kinkier porn. It becomes a conditioned response, and yes, it can easily damage ones real life relationships.

Stacy explains so well how the increased availability affects boys and men.

“Stacy explains so well how the increased availability affects boys and men”

but not girls and women?

Thank you Jen S. for stating this. Porn use and addiction may not lead to sex crimes, but I don’t know any women who truly enjoy “using” it to help their relationships. I do know a number of women who tolerate it though, because it seems like a losing battle with the man in their relationship. At best it is a crutch, and at worst it destroys trust and erodes relationships.

Easy access has made porn an entirely different animal than it used to be. And whether Charles and blotz-whatever like it or not, both men and women suffer in their relationships because of porn, especially when it becomes the ‘third wheel’ ,so to speak, in a relationship.

It’s not the demonizing of porn that’s the problem, it’s the porn itself. It is not something beautiful, only the shadow of it. It doesn’t enhance sexual arousal with a companion, it competes with it.

And Charles, thanks for pointing out the effects on girls and women, as there are many: objectificaion, exploitation, denigration…..the gap between males and females widens everytime a pornographic image gets between them.

Lenore,

Please do post more on this online safety institute conference.

(Not that this thread on porn isn’t compelling . . . )

I have viewed porn and did not find it sexually stimulating. The movies have extremely weak and idiotic plot lines, and the sex depicted is absurd, with bright lights, horse-sized penises, slutty women in ridiculous positions, ad nauseum. The whole genre is basically hedonistic nonsense.

Jan S,
And that is how you, one person view it. I know men who do not like pornography as well (well one man that I can name). My argument, as with most things boils down to the notion that everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just because something offends you does not make it bad. I do not like “gangster rap” music but if other people enjoy it, far be it from me to denigrate it.

How did we get from ‘porn’ (never mind the massive variety that constitutes ‘porn’) to female circumcision?

I don’t have a problem with two men or two women getting married, but I’m in a minority, so it must be bad.

Our society if full of examples where the minority does and does not have the freedom to do something the majority find objectionable. Examples don’t prove anything.

Ah, but female circumcision is done to helpless babies. Online porn, also, affects children, which was my original point. Early exposure to porn alters brain chemistry permanently. The easy availability of porn is harmful to developing young people, who are only naturally attracted to it. In legal terms that would be considered an “attractive nuisance”, similar to an unsecured abandoned building or an unfenced swimming pool.

And Jan… male circumcision is done on helpless babies too. We practice that all the time in this country. Why not vouch for those infants as well?

Porn isn’t genital mutilation – I’m sorry. Nor is it some mind-altering drug. It can lead to destructive behavior if there is no surrounding structure to teach right and wrong outside of fantasy.

Sex is not bad. Boys masturbating is not bad… I’d rather have my son watching porn and spewing into a sock than having sex with as many teen girls as possible and knocking them up. Sorry.

Male circumcision doesn’t deprive men of the ability to have sexual pleasure. For the record, however, my sons are uncircumcised.

Porn on the internet is available to youngsters, and parents have a right to worry about that. Not everyone has liberal attitudes towards porn, and many want their children to be able to browse the internet without having access to its depraving influence. It’s a valid concern.

I do agree with Jan S that there’s stuff on the Internet, porn and otherwise, that I’d rather my son not see until I think he’s better able to handle it. And not to be sexist, I just don’t have a daughter.

Heck, at age 8 I was free ranging through the wax museum and accidentally went through the chamber of horrors detour. I can remember running in a panic back the way I came through the entrance, stopping for nothing. I don’t remember the bus trip home, but I do remember getting physically ill at home.

So how do we let our kids experience the good of what the Internet has to offer, and shield them from the bad, whatever we as parents deem ‘bad’?

Filtering software?

Secret monitoring?

Monitor and let them know we’re monitoring?

Computer only in the family room?

Don’t let them on the Internet?

Jan, I will give you that for sure – it’s a valid concern. I do not, however think that porn needs to be done away with. I really believe that people need to work around what is there.

I have two eight year olds and I’m not liberal enough to show them porn or share that kind of sexuality with them – as it should be! They know that animals have sex to make babies – through that they figured out people must do that too – have I explained how? Heck no. Not yet and they’re fine with that. They know a man and a woman need to be together to make a baby – that’s all they need for now.

It’s just a matter of what surrounds the kids that *do* get hold of porn. That’s all I’m saying. A teenager isn’t an 8 -year-old, they know what is what – they need to be talked to, not hidden away from the fact that some people use sex for fantasy and pleasure… but that it isn’t the way people are in their relationships with people they love for life.

And many men would disagree with you on the sexual pleasure thing. I’m not a man, I can’t argue the point – but genital mutilation is genital mutilation. My son, too, is circumsized – and no, I don’t approve of female genital mutilation because of how brutal it is. However… porn is not genital mutilation. There’s no correlation in my eyes.

And forgive my spelling errors… for some reason my fingers are doing different things than my brain. :o)

I’m sure those in favor of porn wouldn’t mind your daughters and sons becoming stars in this fine industry…

‘it reportedly’ I meant to say… 😆

My son was playing at the Train Table at the local Barnes and Noble a while back, along with a little boy his age, who had a sister who was still not even crawling. The little girl had pierced ears, and somehow I got discussing it with the dad, and he said some people chastised them for putting their daughter through the pain. I foolishly said something about that being noting to circumcising a boy- which got a little uncomfortable, because they did that too.

Ahh, now we’re protecting the sweet, innocent, teenagers from pornography through a public policy initiative? As someone from a state with some of the worst public schools in the country / world, rampant violence (respectively; not fear mongering), and other far less laughable social ills, let me chime in with my two-cents: “Hahahahahahaha.”

Some of the same issues are being raised in another blog I read regularly, The Last Psychiatrist: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/11/gossip_girl_is_going_to_corrup.html
Specifically, the CW television network’s decision to air a 3-some on their show Gossip Girl. Personally I’ve never seen it and don’t remember ever having watched anything from that particular network, but now I find myself interested in tuning in. The show still looks pathetic, but if it gets people like the Parents Television Council up in arms I might have to tune in on general principle.

For starters, in terms of the types and severity of risk taking behaviors many teens and tweens engage in, exposure to internet pornography ought to fall somewhere on the list right behind inappropriate fruit roll-up use. That is, it should, in a society that isn’t already dangerously obsessed with teens and sex and already providing all kinds of mixed signals about it. But this is the land of jail terms for sexting teenagers, after all. America has some wicked fascination with glamorizing teen sex and punishing it severely at the same time; it’s no surprise kids are caught in the middle of our crazy little one-man-show.

Instead of shoving it all in the closet (literal and metaphorical), why not take the opportunity to turn it into a teaching experience? I’d like to think that most reasonably intelligent people would understand that pre- and early adolescents typically start showing some interest in sex and the opposite sex… they’re not blank slates for us to live out our own pristine fantasies of a sexless utopia upon. I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to take advantage of that fact, even if it means discussing mainstream porn (and laughing about most of it, warning about some of it, and reinforcing notions of realistic relationships).

I’m actually kind of surprised at the reactions around here… Especially since it’s obvious that the status quo of keeping sexuality, even the dirty underbelly of repressed porn and sexual aggression in America, in the closet is NOT working. We’re giving it power by doing that. Instead of growing up to laugh at stupid porn antics, we grow up obsessed and terrified by them. Find me a pornography addict that has open and honest discussions about pornography with their spouse, and had healthy sex-ed discussions with their parents and I’ll gladly eat my own hat.

Frankly, most pornography bothers me less than violence.

Having my children see adults performing adult behaviors that I fully expect them to participate in (in healthy relationships, as adults) is an entirely different ballgame than having my children desensitized to violent acts that I never even want them to witness in real life. While I am not in a hurry to have them watch pornography, naked images and mild erotic acts in a movie don’t bother me even with fairly young children, because these are a normal part of the human experience.

Violence is almost impossible to avoid in movies, television, and elsewhere. And, we know that they become insensitive to others’ suffering with too much exposure to this.

Ironically, beautiful bodies and adult sexual encounters are treated as though they are more dangerous than bloody disturbing violent images.

Of course, both violence and sexual encounters vary along a wide continuum. But, in general, I’d rather my kids appreciate the full range of the normal human experience than watch violent acts.

Maybe the solution is to know our children, talk with our children, and have a sense of what they are doing? That may be a more measured (and useful) approach than paranoia.

Come, come people. Procrastination is clearly the most dangerous thing about the Internet.

Imagine what we could get done if we just stopped reading and posting to these blogs 🙂

My mother’s name is Helen. You’re not her by any chance are you? I have some code compiling in the background. Honest!

Krolik – my kids are a little too young to be coding just yet so your goofing off secret is safe 🙂

On a more serious note though I’m not particularly paranoid about the Internet but I am wondering about how we can let them gain their independence online in a responsible way. My kids are completely fascinated by computers and both their parents are CompSci majors and very pro-technology so I expect they’ll be pretty immersed fairly early on. With the real world I can introduce them to it myself – go places with them show them how to navigate, let them go places with slightly older kids or as long as they are together, give them boundaries for independent roaming and then extend those boundaries.

How do people do this sort of thing with the virtual world. When they’re really young I can go online with them, and I can let them use certain sites on their own, but as they get older it gets trickier. Setting boundaries for independent browsing doesn’t seem appropriate for the Internet – if they have to check with me every time they go to a new site they won’t be on their own at all. I haven’t seen any filtering software I like.

I’d be really interested to hear what other parents have done/plan to do to for that in-between stage when they need some freedom but they’re still learning to handle themselves.

Helen:

I have to echo K here… Having the computer (or computers) in a publicly accessible part of the house, especially the living room or den is about the best way I’ve seen to discourage inappropriate behavior. By the time they’re old enough to be terribly irritated by the lack of privacy they’ll be old enough to work a summer job and purchase their own computer…

At which point they learn the most valuable lesson of all… The reason why mom / dad gets ticked off when they eat and drink at the computer.

Just as a side note, most routers these days have a pretty easy-to-use control system built into the setup page. (generally 192.168.0.1, but it’s in the router booklet). These things are awfully nifty for only allowing internet access at certain times of the day for specific computers on the network and establishing time limits. I’m not a big supporter of iron-clad control freakishness, but the average FRK parent is probably less likely to be hovering over the computer with a stopwatch, so it’s nice to have some built in controls (especially if, god forbid, you have to run to the grocery store or something and leave the kids at home!).

You can also use that same page to restrict or deny specific sites that teens love but are probably not all that wonderful (4chan, etc).

Used to be to view porn you had to sneak off to a dirty book store or one of those little movie houses. Now, it’s all over the ‘net. The thrill is gone.

Porn has become somewhat mainstream. I get the feeling that the first generation growing up with this will soon look at porn as a yawner. As my momma used to say, “It’s a lot more fun to be there”. 🙂

Interesting that some of the first images carved in to cave walls were dirty pics. For some reason, humans have always enjoyed making and viewing dirty pictures.

I have viewed porn and did not find it sexually stimulating. The movies have extremely weak and idiotic plot lines, and the sex depicted is absurd, with bright lights, horse-sized penises, slutty women in ridiculous positions, ad nauseum. The whole genre is basically hedonistic nonsense.

Sounds like you only saw bad porn. The fact is that pornography encompasses just as many variations as other genres.

I will readily agree that much porn has nothing to do but to reinforce harmful ideas about sexuality (and that goes both for porn aimed at men and porn aimed at women), but that’s not inherent to it, it’s just a side-effect of, well, being in this society.

Unfortunately, with the advent of internet-connected iphones, etc., the ‘fix’ of not letting the kid have a computer in their own room is over. Pretty soon, if they have a cell phone, they’ll have web access. Now, I have heard of families that have a rule that at bedtime everyone puts their cell phones in a basket on the kitchen table and doesn’t pick them up again till time to leave for work/school the next morning.

When I was little, the advent of democracy in my country came with the abolition of censorship on press, radio and, of course, TV. Now the debate was opened about how pernicious TV was for young minds. The answer my dad gave in conferences was that TV was just a window open to the world. As in real life, there are safe streets and those alleyways you would never enter without a bodyguard. The question is not whether TV (or the Internet, for that matter) is safe for children to watch, but rather how can we teach them how to roam the virtual streets safely.
Now, IMO, the first step is to teach them critical thinking. Not everything on Internet is truthful, not everything is an example you should follow. So, as with real streets, you navigate them with your kids, then you “let them drive” and watch over their shoulders, then you gradually let go and learn to trust them.

Karen, true, good point about the phones. I never even thought of that since we don’t have those kinds of phones in our house (and the only way we’ll get them is if they are a “free upgrade” with our phone service). I like the solution of phones in the basket at night.
And its true Helen, an internet free computer is so outdated it would be impossible to implement I’m sure. My husband pointed out that nowadays with wireless internet all computers are really internet capable, and I’m sure our kids could figure out how to hook up any computer they wanted to the internet. And it is a bit daunting to think about what we’ll be having to deal with technology wise once they get to be teens (another 12 years for me, so a lot of room for major advances).
I wholeheartedly agree Lola, it all is about teaching them critical thinking, whats safe, what’s not, how to keep your reputation in tact (like Lenore just mentioned), etc. It very much is a the same with the real world, and how we give our kids freedoms and eventually, once we know they are capable, let them wander on their own. Good analogy!

Stacy, I’m sorry you live in Los Angeles in the San Fernando (cough cough) valley and have contacts and affiliation with ‘hard’ working porn stars. That’s a sad environment to raise kids in, between the smog and the debauchery.

Jan simply sounds like a moral minority in this country that holds puritanical values. Whether you find that sad or not… meh.

I’m not going to tell my child they cannot be in the porn industry if they are ADULTS that are making their own choices. I would warn them, I’d hope to educate them… but just the same as if they told me they were gay or wanted to be a trash collector for life… I’d love them all the same, respect them as human beings with the capacity for choice, and let them live their lives as they saw fit.

I don’t find porn as some nasty degrading hole people fall into- either. These are choices some people have made – and it’s the choice to use their bodies in ways to act out fantasies that other people have but cannot act out. I’m not going to say it’s wrong. Child porn? Absolutely wrong. Force to do porn? Absolutely wrong. Consenting adult porn by adults getting paid for adults wanting to pay to watch? Nope. Not wrong.

And I totally agree on the public area for kids to get online. Granted – they might just go to a friends house that has a computer in their room – but that’s when you hope your job as a parent has been done well enough that even when they see the nasty stuff, they don’t take it as reality.

K, while I agree wholeheartedly that it’s much healthier for kids to watch “adult” themed media that is sexual in nature than the stuff that is violent, I find it odd that you are characterizing violence as something outside of the normal range of human experience. Are violent situations desirable? No. Are they a normal part of human life? Yes.

If porn had the morally degrading effects Jan S claims, then wouldn’t sex crimes be going up?

I’m a bit late to this conversation BUT…. throughout the history of communication technology, starting with the aforementioned cave paintings – new methods of communication have almost immediately been widely used for the purposes of creating and sharing sexual images – the printing press (yeah – lots of porn in addition to the Gutenberg Bible!), photography, film, video, internet – no big change there over hundreds of years. Probably parents have been freaking out about it for the same amount of time…

As for my approach with my daughter (who will be 9 in a month). As she has asked for information or expressed curiosity about reproduction and sexuality, I have discussed it honestly with her, so she is already aware of the mechanics of reproduction and has an emerging awareness of sexuality (one that I think is developmentally appropriate, but which seems a bit premature to some of the parents of her friends.) Despite being knowledgeable for her age, I have noticed that she is quite sensible about protecting her status as a child.

About a year ago she told me that she would maybe like to marry her best friend (another girl) when they grew up because that’s who she loved the most. (We have family and close friends in same-sex marriages, so this is, as far as she is concerned, a viable option.) I replied that this would be fine with me, but that marriage isn’t just about who we love (because we love lots of different people), but also who we feel romantic with – want to kiss etc.

Her very sensible reply to that was “I am 8 years old … I don’t want to kiss ANYBODY yet”

Now that she is getting older and showing the early signs of physical development, I can see her also beginning the process of developing awareness as a sensual/sexual person and I want to both protect her from content that she is not mature enough to manage and also promote healthy sexual development – in the hopes that she will be assertive, confident and able to decide in her own time (and when she is older) when, how, and with whom she chooses to share this important (and really lovely) part of adult life.

To that end, the computers are in public areas of the home and I keep a casual eye on what she is up to – so that I can check in with her and satisfy myself that she is safe and age-appropriate when online… and talk with her about it if I have a concern. (For other reasons entirely – like the expectation that she read, go outside to play with friends etc. her total screen time per day is also limited.)

I don’t doubt that at some point she will be looking for some racier stuff when I am not watching what she is doing- and that I will worry about this as some of what’s out there goes quite a bit beyond “racy” …

…but have noticed in the meantime that her friends – who are very protected and whose parents do not believe in sex education beyond bare-bones reproductive information (i.e. no sexuality education) – seem to be much more driven to search on-line for pics of naked people etc. My own daughter has had her curiosity satisfied for the time being and just can’t be bothered.

So I STILL believe that giving my daughter the tools (accurate information, positive self-image, self-confidence, age appropriate messages about sexuality and sexual safety, the knowledge that as her mother I am an ally in helping her to be and feel safe) will help her safely negotiate the internet – in the same way that the same tools help her to negotiate the playground – as a free-range kid!

Margo — It seems to me that your daughter is lucky to have you as her mom. It seems like a rare thing to find parents who are willing to talk to their kids openly about such things as sex and sexuality, even before they become teenagers. So many people seem to feel that it’s “too mature” of a subject to be talking to a 9 year old about, but what they seem to forget is that things like puberty can start as early as 9 or 10, and even if they haven’t quite started puberty, they are probably starting to get curious.

great note margo.

What you said about how media technology is used to promote pornography was spot on. What some people might not be aware of is also how pornography steers technology. An interesting bit of trivia is that at some point in time there was a battle between VHS and Betamax (some of us may remember) the story is that Betamax refused to publish pornographic movies but VHS did and thus before DVD we were all using VHS.