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This comes to us from Heather Hypes, a mom in Michigan, who had one of those days. We’ve all had them. The kids are tired, the line takes forever, the credit card is doing something funky… For most of modern history, this was cause for a beer or candy bar when we got home.
But Heather and her husband are facing something far bigger: A possible six months in jail and $2000 in fines — not to mention lawyers’ fees — thanks to authorities convinced that children are in mortal peril any time their parents aren’t perfect.
No one is suggesting that very young children should routinely be left for 27 minutes in the car, alone, which is what ended up happening on the terrible, very bad, no good day Heather describes. But as the New ezaertriay
Jersey Supreme Court itself declared, unanimously, simply leaving a child in a car does not constitute abuse or neglect. Those crimes are evidenced by a pattern of harm to children, not by one errand gone kerflooey. How can it possibly make Heather and her husband BETTER parents by putting them in jail, or siphoning off $2000 family dollars? Isn’t that way, way worse than the “crime?” You decide:
Dear Free-Range Kids: Hi my name is Heather and I am a proud mother of two beautiful children, a 3 yr old daughter (will be 4 in Feb.) and a 7 month old son. This nightmare started when my husband and I were on our way to work (we clean out abandon homes) and our daughter kept asking for something to drink. We decided to stop at Walmart, since there were a couple other things we had to grab anyways, and when we arrived our son was sleeping and our daughter was playing games on my phone..My husband was just going to run in but I decided to run in with him so we could do it faster. After grabbing the few things we needed and heading to the check outs we realized we forgot to get our daughters juice. I headed to the back of the store to grab her juice while he went to get a snack because we knew our daughter would want something to eat as well..When we got to the self scans we went to different machines so it would be faster because half of the items could be covered with our bridge card and some couldn’t. He was having trouble with his transaction ( bridge card ), I went over to his machine once I was done with mine to help him and we ended up having to void the order and re-scan it. So, in a nutshell, a 5 min. run in turned into a 27 min run in..When we returned to our truck there were two Walmart employees standing next to it saying that the police were on their way and continued being very rude saying it is illegal to leave children in the vehicle unattended. It was around 50 degrees , overcast, and raining. We left a window cracked and the truck locked..I am only 24 yrs old and have never been in trouble for anything and didn’t honestly even know that it was illegal. My mother use to do it with my siblings and I, so I just thought it was a judgement call on the parents part as long as you didn’t leave them in there for hours or in extreme heat or in any dangerous environment. Where the Walmart is located is in a small, I guess you can call it a city, in northern Michigan. Not a bad neighborhood at all!.The cop told me that I would be hearing from CPS and that he was going to submit the case to a prosecutor. I was personally more worried about CPS then anything. I instantly thought they were going to try and take my kids away and I was freaking out. My kids are my everything!!!!! I wasn’t suppose to be able to have kids and I had two perfect miracle babies!.The man from CPS showed up a few days after that and was extremely nice said. He had no worries ( even though my house was a mess with laundry baskets everywhere ) and that all they had to do was meet my husband and they would most likely drop the case. Then about a week later my husband and I had warrants for our arrest for two counts each of 4th degree child abuse..I couldn’t believe it I immediately called CPS to see if they had found something they thought was putting our kids in danger or if they had anything to do with it. They told me they didn’t and that they were shocked that it even became a charge. We are looking at $1000 in fines and/or 6 months in jail each. I don’t know what to do. I am TERRIFIED of losing my babies and we just started our own business and not making much money and we can’t afford a lawyer let alone $2000 in fines. Our arraignment is on Jan. 14th and I am so embarrassed and lost on what to say!.Please if you have any advice or anything, let me know!
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80 Comments
Where in Michigan? I’m from there, and if I don’t have contacts I might at least have family who would love to hear how WalMart treats its customers.
Oh, that poor family! I don’t understand how anyone can think this is helping kids. By the way, I think Maria Hasankolli’s court date is tomorrow, if I’m not mistaken.
Just as a gun culture produces dead bodies with bullet holes in them, a car culture produces no end of crapstorm bs caseloads for the vultures to feed on.
Consider – had this couple been caught driving 30mph over the speed limit (thereby endangering those same two children) they would have faced far less risk to their currently intact family, and to their wallets….(although the insurance hike might close the gap.)
Kids in cars is a sad fact of reality from which there appears to be no escape. Which of course, ramps up the numbers and the caseloads.
However, the hypocrisy of the authorities does not escape me.
Apparently lounging in a parked car in relatively normal and safe conditions produces great peril in the mind of the socially conscienced polity.
Driving your typical rush-hour mayhem is quite fine, and encouraged, considering the layout of the pulic realm within which the majority of modern children now live. The carnage on the road produces statistics that would make any war hawk proud.
No CPS involvement there….no threat of jail or fines…..folks just get good and dead.
And the big shrug just goes on, and nothing ever changes, just more of the same, and business as usual.
So we ask a simple question: Just when is it that a car is a dangerous thing, and when is it not so much?
A mom has a bad day, perhaps an error in judgement, perhaps a little bit less perfectly precise in acute correct-thought. Too bad, such a shame she happens to live in such a relentlessly and remorselessly unforgiving and punitive regime.
One little family just struggling to get by…like so many others. God bless ’em and Happy New Year. Peace in America and goodwill toward blah blah blah.
And my heart does a backflip at the thought of her attachement to those miracle babies.
They are miracles, indeed….the ones no doubt she would fight tooth and nail for, to the last dying breath.
The ones no astute collection of authoritative vipers would care a dime’s worth for….other than the value-added opportunities they provide to an overswollen bureaucratic army of vicious stormtroopers, ready to swing into action and bring home the bacon…..all on the backs of innocents.
The scariest part is that they think they are right.
They are not right.
They are so hopelessly wrong they can’t smell their own excresence. Their bloodlust gets in the way of a functioning nose. (and too often, functioning brains)
…..let alone some simple basic compassion and understanding, within which the situation at hand is weighed out and considered in proper context.
So the corporate smiley face bares its deadly fangs, and sets the whole damned thing in motion.
We’ll take your cash, ma’am, and thank you very much – then damn you straight to hell for daring to be imperfect.
And one more time across a barren land the ragged banner of family values raises up, a little more threadbare and tattered with each unhappy new year. Suffer the little children….
Kudos to this CPS for not being the ones to overreact, in this case.
Is there any way we can get the name of the specific police department that responded and/or is bringing the charges? Also, the specific Wal-Mart at which this event occurred? Thanks!
What would have happened if, after returning to her car and being informed that the police had been called, she had just driven home and been gone by the time the cops arrived? Walmart employees have no power to detain her. Then it’s the employees’s word against her’s rather than the cop’s testimony if/when it gets to court.
To JKP. Good point indeed. Luckily, I have not had this happen to me but, should it ever, I have absolutely no intention of waiting around for the cops to arrive. I think that should be a blanket policy for anyone who faces a situation like this. Say NOTHING, drive away, and wait for the police to contact you. If they do, answer no questions, and contact an attorney. Don’t make it easy for these bozos.
JKP, that’s a good question. I have heard stories of a couple of different parents having CPS or the police show up at their door, after some “concerned” person called and gave their license number. In one case, a mother had a child who kept getting out of their car seat and, when she pulled over to put them back in, they were fighting very hard, to the point where the driver in the car behind her apparently thought she was being really rough with her child.
I think the other case was a mom who got really stressed and was screaming at her kids in the grocery store parking lot.
But there’s always the chance that the busybody didn’t think to take down the plate number, in which case maybe if you drive away fast enough, they won’t be able to get it and then you’d be home free, I guess.
LOL, I have one friend who spent some time (along with her small children) on the road with her truck driver husband. And they’d made a quick stop because their three-year-old needed some new clothes badly, but the little girl wasn’t in a good mood and kept saying “I don’t like that” to every outfit her mom held up, and her mom exasperatedly told the store clerk, “Just bring me the ugliest clothes you can find” and the clerk said, “We don’t sell any ugly clothes here.”
The mom finally ended up buying something, and they were back on the highway heading to another state when they got a call from someone, I’m not sure if it was police or CPS, because the store clerk was concerned that someone who’d ask for ugly clothes for her child might be a bad mother, I guess. In this case, they got her cell phone number off of the check she wrote. My friend just told the caller that she was headed out of his jurisdiction, and that was the end of it.
It was definitely foolish to leave a baby in a car and think one would be concerned. Equally foolish to leave your house a mess if you are expecting cps. And really, why wouldn’t you pack food and drink for your small child in the first place? Anyways, won’t the court provide a lawyer? I am willing to support parents making reasonable choices suffering from other people’s paranoia. But this isn’t an example of free range parenting. It is an example of poor choices and foolish parents.
Well, according to Michigan law, which is accessible at this site, “A person who is responsible for the care or welfare of a child shall not leave that child unattended in a vehicle for a period of time that poses an unreasonable risk of harm or injury to the child or under circumstances that pose an unreasonable risk of harm or injury to the child.”
If found guilty, “(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivisions (b) to (d), the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $500.00, or both.” The other subsections involve actual injury to the child, so they will not be applicable.
The law is loosely worded, and it will be on the parents to prove there was not an unreasonable risk of harm/injury. I would think the report from CPS would be instrumental in showing that a reasonable person did not think there was risk of harm . . . but it sounds like the parents got a prosecutor who wants to make a name for him/herself (my sister had one. The trial judge quite literally laughed the case out of court. Didn’t mean the lawyer didn’t get paid, though).
The parents need to consult a lawyer, and start looking at free legal help (there should be local resources).
Ashley, poor choices and foolish parenting should not be illegal.
Here’s the scenario and what would you do:
While working in a medical establishment your patient asks you to hurry because his 5&8 year old are waiting in the car. Mind you this is in the southwest in the month of August. Out side temperature 112 degrees. But it’s ok because the parent informed you that he left the car running with the AC on, and it’s a brand new car. Oddly, his wife is waiting for him in the exam room and runs out to check on their kiddies every so often. She informs you they didn’t want to come inside and are being entertained by their video games.
“They are so hopelessly wrong they can’t smell their own excresence. ”
I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
Carry on.
I completely agree that this situation (despite it being one that I never made) does not rise to criminal charges, especially if there is not a hard and fast law on the ages involved.
I do think we have to be careful with the idea that bad choices or mistakes are not illegal. In some cases they are. I could say that I didn’t realize a stretch of road was a lower speed limit or that hands free cell use was req’d in a certain state I traveled thru, and they might be honest mistakes (or ones made from distraction). I’m still getting dinged though.
Poor decision making or foolish behavior can certainly come with it’s legal ramifications.
Do I think this is the case here? Well, it shouldn’t be.
I mean, clearly reading her own words indicates everything you need to know: the way she was raised in this regard, the ignorance to any law (if it actually exists), and the snafu that led to this circumstance, and she interacted with CPS in a satisfactory manner (on both sides). Enough already.
The other day, I saw a mom leave a sleeping preschooler in a car while she dashed into a store. My first thought was what is the weather- moderate, with no chance of overheating in the car. The second was then does she have the right to let sleeping kid sleep? The answer was yes. I was on the phone for a minute and waited outside. When a busy body made it her business, I caught her eye. Mom was back in less than 5 minutes. No harm, no foul.
Ashley,
Do you feel better about yourself now that you put down these parents? Just wondering. We have a word for people like you, but Lenore has admonished me about my language enough.
Maxine,
I don’t have a problem with your scenario what so ever.
@Maxine,
The 8 year old is old enough to make changes if he/she is uncomfortable/bored/whatever. If the car stalls, the older child should be able to get out OR open the windows and take the younger sibling into the office. Hell, at this point, the older child probably has a cell phone or mommy’s phone and knows how to use it.
Reality check:
How that mom actually feels about her babies, is not on the page.
Missing in action…….where did it go?
Lost in legalities, formalities, suppositions, propositions
and to the one thus un-named….
the second definition offered was “ugly addition”……..
(still pooh to me)
Art – this scenario did happen and I was required to report it. That same day at another office location an elderly man left his pet in a running car that stalled. The pet died. A month prior three kids were left unsupervised in a van which one set on fire while playing with a lighter. They all died. What is my point? Every situation is different. As medical personnel, we are trained and required to report incidences. Sometimes the only places abused people get a chance to go is to school and to the doctor. I could imagine how hard it is to be a teacher. We may be there only hope. Not all parents are as kind to their kids as the people who would subscribe to a site such as this.
We have to fight to regain our parental rights. Children do not belong to the government. Parents do not need government approval to leave kids unattended for short periods of time when they are save from harm. We don’t need approval to allow our children to walk to and from school. We, not the government, know if and when our children are mature enough to be left at home alone. Government overreach has gotten way out of hand and they need to keep their hands and noses to themselves. A terrible accident, does not a ‘bad’ parent make. Accidents happen and a lot of times they’re no ones fault. That’s why they’re called ‘accidents’.
Word needs to spread, we need to get everyone informed, that it is very, very dangerous to leave a child in a car for even one minute.
Dangerous because someone can call CPS and the police.
That is the danger of which Heather was uninformed.
I’m sorry, I usually agree that kids can be left in a car for a short time, depending on the circumstances. However, in this case I believe that these two children were too young to be left in the car for such a long time. When the trip turned into longer than expected, ONE of the parents should have returned to the car and waited for the other one. What if the three year old wondered what was taking mommy and daddy so long to come back and unlocked the door and went looking for them? At three she probably can undo her safety seat belts and unlock the door. I occasionally would leave my kids in the car for short errands but I would not have left these two in the car at their ages. I don’t necessarily think the parents should be fined or prosecuted but I do consider this bordering on negligent.
Helene,
Since when is 27 mins. a long time?
Maxine,
You were required to report it? As medical personnel you are required to report any signs of abuse or neglect. So you made the choice to report it, as you made the decision that what they were doing was abuse or neglect.
A brainfart moment and I think everyone is in agreeance that it wasn’t great parenting at all, and very poor choices (particularly with two adults available, and lots of the running around was for unnecessary stuff)…
But worthy of police and CPS involvment, jail and charges of neglect? Hardly, the kids were fine, and not just “lucky they survived” but actually not in any danger of anything happening to them – other than, when they grow up, being able to relate to the millions of Gen X children who have memories of hours spent sitting in a car bored out of their brains and picking fights with siblings… I don’t know what my parents were always doing but I spent a lot of time sitting in a car in carparks.
“this scenario did happen and I was required to report it.”
Required by whom? Do you have a list of many various fact scenarios that your employer/licensing agency requires the reporting of if you encounter them? Or are they rough guidelines as to abuse/neglect and you get to decide what should be reported?
Maxine, links or it didn’t happen.
Lots of “Oh, I heard about this case where this horrible thing happened,” but without actual proof, I’m gonna treat your stories as urban legends.
Furthermore, what did you report on the parents who left their kids in the car with their games? “Uh, some kids are having fun without their parents hovering over them like starving vultures”?
I understand that “mandatory reporting” exists, but there were no indicators of abuse. You were the abuser, not the parents.
“However, in this case I believe that these two children were too young to be left in the car for such a long time. When the trip turned into longer than expected, ONE of the parents should have returned to the car and waited for the other one.”
I agree 100%. In fact, I will go even a step further and say that I believe that one of the parents should have remained in the car from the beginning as Walmart is not the place to leave small children alone in the car. I have never been in an efficiently run Walmart so the odds are pretty high that you will not be able to run in and out quickly.
However, believing that the parents made a dumb decision and believing that the parents committed neglect that needs to be prosecuted are two totally separate things. Why is it that we as a society now believe that every decision that we don’t agree with is a crime?
“However, believing that the parents made a dumb decision and believing that the parents committed neglect that needs to be prosecuted are two totally separate things. Why is it that we as a society now believe that every decision that we don’t agree with is a crime?”
The prosecutor thinks the case will stick. That goes a long way to convincing me that there was something here worthy of prosecution. Since I can’t see what it is, that leaves two major possibilities… it’s there, and I just haven’t been made aware of it, or it’s not there, and the prosecutor is incompetent. Guess they’ll have to hold a trial, and figure out which one it is.
I have my own personal horror story about kids in a hot car. One day on a very hot day (it was 32 celsius – I think that’s over 80 Fahrenheit…) after buckling my toddler and baby into their car seats, the doors all locked as I closed the back door. With my keys, cell phone and purse inside the car. My toddler knew what happened but strapped into her 5 point harness she was unable to reach the door locks. She started to panic. Staff at the shop where I had been were very helpful, as were other patrons. The fire department showed about 30 seconds before we were about to smash the window. The kids were in the car for about 10 minutes and my baby had to be packed in ice packs to get his body temperature down when the firefighters pulled him out. To this day (it was 5 1/2 years ago) I cannot tell that story without getting emotional. So I know a thing or two about kids in cars.
And what I think is that in the vast majority of cases that I hear about (including this one), the children are old enough to a) unbuckle themselves and b) get out of the car if they need too (or lock the doors and stay put if that seems a better plan, like when strangers are crowding around!). Rather than supervising them 24/7, let’s teach kids the skills they need to be able to be left alone in the car – how to unbuckle, how to unlock the doors, how to safely traverse a parking lot, (or how to lock and stay put if there should happen to be an external threat) etc. etc. These will all depend on the individual child and each parent will know when their child is ready to a) learn these skills and b) be responsible enough to be left to their own devices. I taught mine early because I was so traumatized at how helpless they had been in our situation. I refuse to use kid locks on the rear doors because I can’t bear the thought of them not being able to get out in an emergency – that’s just my “thing”. You might wait a little longer. But I truly believe that giving our kids skills is the best protection we can offer them.
If this does go to court I would be sure to get statements from the Walmart employees seeking the following information:
why did you go to this car in the 1st place?
did someone report this to you?
what is your position with Walmart?
why did you not make an announcement for the parents?
how long did you wait before calling police?
what did you say to police when you called?
I would then ask Walmart store manager how often crimes are commited in that store and in that lot. How safe is that lot and location. Put the manager in the position to either argue that their lot is so dangerous that police were required to respond or manager will state – with stats – that lot/location is safe.
If lot is so dangerous that this rises to a crime – remind the manager that that info will now be part of the official court record. I suspect the manager will be only to happy to state how safe their lot/location really is for their customers.
If the lot is safe, then it appears that 27 minutes at that time of day under those weather conditions does not constitute unreasonable action – particularly since the Walmart employees took it upon themselves to watch over the children (unless they state they were willing to watch as someone kidnapped these children)
Best of luck to these two parents
“The prosecutor thinks the case will stick. That goes a long way to convincing me that there was something here worthy of prosecution. Since I can’t see what it is, that leaves two major possibilities… it’s there, and I just haven’t been made aware of it, or it’s not there, and the prosecutor is incompetent.”
Um, by this reasoning, no prosecutor can every be wrong. Or at least they should be assumed to be correct until proven otherwise. What is it that makes that sound wrong to me?
“Um, by this reasoning, no prosecutor can every be wrong.”
Did you not read all the way to the end of the sentence? Let me put just that part here for you.
“or it’s not there, and the prosecutor is incompetent.”
So, upon a revisit, we see that by this reasoning, the prosecutor is either right or wrong.
I know, this assumption of mine that people know how to do their jobs better than I do is one of the crazy, wackadoodle notions I seem to be prone to, but… I think I’ll stick with it, for now. You’re welcome to stick to yours, that you know how to do other peoples’ jobs better than they do. They’ll have a trial to decide, and we’ll know then.
I took my kids out for lunch one day a few winters ago I think they were 3 and 5 at the time, give or take. It was cold and snowing heavily. I put the kids in their boosters in the back seat of the pickup truck. I started the engine to warm up the truck while I scraped the ice and snow off the windows. While I was working, my three year old decided to reach forward and lock the truck. Joy.
I was standing there, locked outside the truck for twenty minutes or so. I finally pantomimed and shouted enough instructions for my five year old to unbuckle her seat belt, climb over the seat and unlock the door. We had a short talk about not locking dad out of the truck anymore. That’s also when I learned that it was time to make sure the kids could unlock the truck on their own.
Wrong is not the same as incompetent and trials get it wrong. If they didn’t, Appellate Courts would never overturn convictions and nobody would ever get exonerated after being convicted.
“Wrong is not the same as incompetent”
Neither are they unrelated.
Part of the prosecutor’s job is to only bring proper cases (that is, where the defendant is actually guilty). and part of the job is to actually prove it in court. Thus, the prosecutor should only be bringing cases where there is sufficient proof of guilt. If there isn’t but the prosecutor proceeds anyway (that is, if the prosecutor is wrong) then that prosecutor is incompetent.
The bar for competence on the defense side is not the same as the bar for competence on the prosecution side.
@JP Merzetti, loved your post. You asked a great question with “Just when is it that a car is a dangerous thing, and when is it not so much?”
If imperfect parenting is neglect, then we need to lock up all parents. Same goes for teachers, politicians, and bloggers!
Master James – You seem to have an unreasonable opinion of prosecuting attorneys – a false dichotomy of either impartial seekers of justice or incompetent buffoons.
Master Baiter – not sure what you mean, and don’t care.
“A month prior three kids were left unsupervised in a van which one set on fire while playing with a lighter. They all died.”
Link please. All I can find on Google is a similar situation that occurred in Dublin in 1997 (a long time ago) in which it appears dad put the kids in the car, ran back in the house, at which time the fire started *possibly* because of a lighter. Surely that is not what you’re referring to.
Master Pollock – glad to see that you recognize your lack of reading comprehension. That’s the first step to getting help.
Master Baiter Not sure why you feel the need to troll me today, but… sorry, not playing. Have a nice day, otherwise.
Walmart is a crime magnet:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/12/walmart-crime-rates_n_4775169.html
There is a town in Florida where the crimes committed at the local Walmart accounts for over half of the total crime rate.
I wonder, statistically: What is the actual risk these young children face in the store vs. just staying put in the vehicle? It’s amazing we’ve taken something that was so typical years ago, kids waiting in the car, and turned it into a police and state agency matter, automatically. I have flashbacks of our wood paneled lime green station wagon with windows down as we waited, betting how many bags our mom would come out with. I left my own kids more times than I can remember in the comfort of the car (thank heavens for tinted windows).
@Maxine-
“Every situation is different. As medical personnel, we are trained and required to report incidences. Sometimes the only places abused people get a chance to go is to school and to the doctor. I could imagine how hard it is to be a teacher. We may be there only hope. Not all parents are as kind to their kids as the people who would subscribe to a site such as this.”
See, you did it right there. You jumped immediately to reporting abuse and judged these parents who are now likely in the horrors of state agency and police reports, innocent children possibly separated from parents and dealing with legal fees and job loss. All for sitting in a car aka The Easy Bake Death Chamber.
Did it every to occur to you, as medical personnel experienced with patient education, to have a conversation with these parents, perhaps educating them of hot car dangers, before getting them in a “Gotcha!” and just calling the authorities on them?
The biggest danger to these children is not the remote chance the car will malfunction, shutting down the A/C, its YOU. Calling the CPS dogs onto this family, for the *crime* of allowing kids to wait it out in the parking lot. YOU are abusing your power as a *mandatory reporter* instead of just educating the parents, voicing your concerns over local tragedies. It is insulting to children who actually DO experience terrible abuse at the hands of their own parents and a terrible waste of resources when we sic police and CPS on these type of families for basic parenting education matters. Please educate yourself on what families go through before you report them.
“He had no worries (even though my house was a mess with laundry baskets everywhere)”
Not the most important thing in this case, but it’s sad that this would even have to be a concern. I’ve read about several other cases where CPS declares a little clutter or some dishes in the sink to be indicative of bad parenting. I understand there are extreme cases, but a messy house and a few dirty dishes isn’t a health issue for anyone to point fingers at or even to sternly mark down on a checklist.
Walk mart employees have no right to detain you. Unless it’s for shoplifting. Leave. I doubt the police will pursue it in such cases.
Also NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE!
“Walk mart employees have no right to detain you. Unless it’s for shoplifting.”
This advice is incorrect. Any person who witnesses a crime may detain the perpetrator until law enforcement arrives.
What law-enforcement personnel have, and you (and Wal-Mart) employees do not have, is personal immunity from a tort lawsuit if you got the wrong guy or no crime was committed. (If detaining people is something you’d like to try, consult a licensed professional first.)
Is getting called a troll by this board’s biggest troll a good or bad thing?
“This advice is incorrect. Any person who witnesses a crime may detain the perpetrator until law enforcement arrives.”
Right, but since, according to Michigan law, it’s only a crime if there was an unreasonable risk of harm or injury, it’s not an objective matter of law-breaking like if you caught someone beating someone up or attempting to rob them. If they don’t agree that they put their children at an unreasonable risk of harm or injury, a bystander doesn’t have an automatic right to detain them.
I say we only have the right to make a citizens arrest of people who are armed and dangerous. That’s who all the concerned busybodies should start confronting…it would solve a lot of our problems for us. 🙂
Lenore, once again: that federal legislation you’ve fallen in love with doesn’t say what you keep insisting it says.
All it says is that nothing in the bill should be construed to outlaw kids walking to school. It doesn’t say no one else can outlaw it.
Roger,
He is just upset because you used vocabulary well beyond his understanding.
Warren – It must be me. Usually Master Pollock is more that willing to defend his asinine assertions to the point of his antagonist’s exhaustion. If only others had this effect on him.
“Is getting called a troll by this board’s biggest troll a good or bad thing?”
Neither. It’s just troll gaslighting.
At the very least, Heather should request a copy of the CPS Findings on her case
If Law Enforcement is pushing a case despite lack of CPS support, I would be very concerned as to their motivation and what picture they are painting to justify their position
If she can, she should take out a loan to fund an Attorney – it’s well worth the cost and will make the process much easier on her & her family – never risk losing your children
As far as the incident, it was a case of poor judgment and nothing more – also, each child is different as far as maturity and responsibility – albeit this child is very young but to criminalize young parents over a simple mistake that thankfully didn’t result in any harm to their young children seems like throwing a tantrum in outrage that there was no harm done
My heart goes out to these parents – please update blog on how things play out
@maxinw
Art — this scenario did happen and I was required to report it. That same day at another office location an elderly man left his pet in a running car that stalled. The pet died. A month prior three kids were left unsupervised in a van which one set on fire while playing with a lighter. They all died. What is my point? Every situation is different. As medical personnel, we are trained and required to report incidences. Sometimes the only places abused people get a chance to go is to school and to the doctor. I could imagine how hard it is to be a teacher. We may be there only hope. Not all parents are as kind to their kids as the people who would subscribe to a site such as this
===>There’s a big difference between an animal and a sentient human (babies excluded but that’s for another post). Again, this 8 year is old enough to able make changes if he/she is uncomfortable, and was more than likely playing games on a cell phone. The mother was periodically checking up on them, according to what you said, so they were not completely alone. You were wrong to file a report in this case. I subbed long term in a First Grade in a low income school in a medium sized West Texas city during the 90’s. I dealt with parents were higher than Wiz Khalifa when they came to pick their kids up. I dealt with the effects of crack babies. I was the one that ended up turning in the little girl whose came to school wearing the same clothes for 4 days in a row and hadn’t bathed in probably a week or longer. It was a daily circus to see what going to happen next.
I get that some the posters on this site see no middle ground and to me come off as overly biased with no gray areas. Again in my opinion will inhibit this movement to grow. I learned to feel comfortable with allowing my child more freedom based on Lenore’s ideals.
Here is a link to the story for the people who don’t believe kids get hurt or killed in this world http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/coroner-ids-2-las-vegas-children-killed-car-fire
And I live in gray areas and believe there’s more than one side of any story.
Maxine,
Can you say hypocrite? You say we don’t see the grey areas, yet you reported that family. No grey, no thinking, no nothing but an automatic assumption of abuse and or neglect. You have no high horse to be on.
You made the call. There is no way in hell your medical obligations cover the scenario that you reported. You possibly tore a family apart, possibly cost them a small fortune and so much more. Instead of defending your knee jerk crap, you should actually be ashamed of what you did.
Roger,
I thank you for silencing him. Your methods work better online. Mine work better in person.
For him to take you on in a battle of wits, on your level, is the equivalent of facing a sniper with a butter knife.
Maxine – No one here denies that terrible things happen to innocent children through no fault of their own. It is when rare and tragic occurrences such as these are used as examples to inform how we should behave in our every day interactions with our children and influence legislation and law enforcement that we object.
The article states that the children were supervised and no charges were filed. Exactly what point are you trying to make?
@Maxine: The link you provided stated the children in question were supervised, the fire was ruled accidental and there were two children killed out of four possibly involved. While tragic, this is not the same story you “reported” to us when you tried defending your decision to call authorities on the kids whose mother was checking on them regularly. Please, just stop.
Roger. I’m just providing a link for the accuser who said I’m making stuff up. And for Warren. I reported this incident to my superior (a doctor) who reported to CPS. The final result was a counsel to the parents and no charges were filed. So that is what happened. Goodbye.
Maxine – Warren references your post above and I failed to make the connection. Are you contending that a 5 and 8 year old are at risk of death by fire when they are left unsupervised in a car? I must assume that you think it abuse because you felt the duty to report it as a mandatory reporter. I would like to know if you are aware of the outcome of your report. Did anyone tell you that you were overly cautious and this was not actually abuse that needed reported?
You say that you have gained insight by reading this blog – I am having trouble believing you.
Well Warren and Melanie, it seems we’ve run off another well intentioned person who just can’t understand how our children haven’t died from our lack of attention.
The final result was a counsel to the parents and no charges were filed.
So it wasn’t abuse. Do you feel like a hero?
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” C.S. Lewis
“Right, but since, according to Michigan law, it’s only a crime if there was an unreasonable risk of harm or injury, it’s not an objective matter of law-breaking”
Go back to the original message I responded to. There’s no mention of Michigan, nor of crimes other than shoplifting.
“No one is suggesting that very young children should routinely be left for 27 minutes in the car, alone…”
Nice disclaimer. But then you proceed to defend the parents’ actions, blaming instead your go-to bogeyman, the Big Bad Government, for the consequences of the parents’ neglectful actions. And then you take at face value and believe, with no healthy skepticism whatsoever, the parents’ story. Did you bother to corroborate their story with other witnesses? Did you talk with the Walmart employees? The police? The CPS? You know, like a real journalist would do? Or is the necessarily biased and emotional report from this parent good enough for propaganda?
There really is soooo much wrong in this story that I’d consider it the rare case of “left alone kids” that has CPS absolutely in the right.
First, the age of the kids – at not yet 4 and 7 months, there is no chance that the children are responsible enough to be left alone in a car for any length of time. What’s the 3 year old going to do if the baby wakes up and starts screaming? What if she suddenly needs to use the restroom and decides to leave the car to find one?
Second, there was absolutely no need for the kids to be left alone in the car at all. There were two parents present; in that situation, why in the world would both parents go in and leave the kids alone? Ms. Hypes says it was to make the Walmart run shorter — but given a choice between leaving your 3 yr old & baby alone in a car and spending an extra ten minutes shopping because you need to get all the items on your list instead of splitting the list in half, choosing cutting down the shopping time *is* negligent. It implies that you don’t sufficiently prioritize your children’s safety over your own convenience, which is a major problem.
Third, that conclusion is further driven home by the failure to return to the car quickly. I have some sympathy for a parent who says “my kid will be fine for 5 minutes while I run an errand”. I have no sympathy at all for the parent who sees the 5 minute errand expand to half an hour and doesn’t reevaluate. That goes double for this situation, where both parents were in the store; at some point, Ms. Hypes or her husband should have said “hey, I need to get back to the car, we can’t leave the kids by themselves this long, you’ll have to finish the shopping alone.”
Does that mean they should get jail time? No. But it does mean that I’m ok with CPS pushing this, that they should plead to a suspended sentence and parenting class requirement, because if there are future situations that show a pattern of putting their children at risk for their own convenience, these parents *should* lose their kids.
S. Zacharia,
What was it about the word “routinely” and the fact that this was a one off incident that happened, that your limited mind cannot understand?
Akiva,
Did you get your daily dose of feeling superior by judging others and insulting them?
I usually agree with you Lenore, but this is a rare case of pure negligence. A 3 year old can’t comfort a 7 month old if they wake. This isn’t a quick jump into a small store with big windows. The car must have been out of view for the entire trip. And 27 minutes? First, stay in the car and let the other parent handle it. Or, after 5 minutes have passed, hand the groceries off and go back to the car.
I usually agree with your cases, but this crosses a line for me.
Meanwhile, Skenazy’s libertarian pals at Reason.com (where this story was reposted) show their true colors:
“Shopping at Walmart is doing more damage to those kids and all the kids than any idle car ride could ever do.”
“I like to stop at Walmart on my way to the tracktor pull.”
“CPS should shut down all Wal-Marts and replace them with Whole Foods.”
“Tell the Walmart employees to politely fuck off and mind their own business.”
That’s a shocker: libertarians are foul-mouthed, elitist bigots. Why won’t anyone take them seriously?
Superior and judgmental “Warren” accuses his ideological enemies of being superior and judgmental. I believe this is what libertarians refer to as “projection.” See also a comical lack of self-awareness.
Sorry, I agree with Akiva and others – this “nightmare” is entirely due to the parents’ poor decisions. A 7 month old should not be left unattended in a vehicle for that length of time and a 3 year old isn’t able to supervise or care for an infant. You could reasonably leave kids that age alone in the car for 2 minutes to run into a gas station to pay for gas – but you don’t leave them alone in a Walmart parking lot (totally out of sight) for a half hour! With two parents present, one could have easily gone in while the other stayed with the children. Even when both of them went in, as soon as it was clear it was no longer a quick trip (needing to go back to get more items, the SNAP card not working, etc.) one of them should have had the sense to think, “Hey, maybe one of us should go out to the car and check on the kids…”
Sometimes having young children is inconvenient. I don’t want these parents to go to jail, but I hope someone makes them take a parenting class or something – it sounds like they needed a wake-up call.
S. Zacharia,
You must be related to James, or went to the same school. Because your reading comprehension is as poor as his. I never accused you or anyone of being superior or judgmental. I asked if someone felt that way as a result of putting others down.
Nice try though. Wanna go for double jeopardy where the scores can really change?
“Part of the prosecutor’s job is to only bring proper cases (that is, where the defendant is actually guilty)”
No, the prosecutor’s job is to bring cases when he believe that there is sufficient evidence to convict the person of the crime for which they are charged. Unless the prosecutor was part of the crime, he has absolutely no way whatsoever to know whether the person charged is actually guilty. And his being part of the crime negates his ability to prosecute said crime.
“the prosecutor should only be bringing cases where there is sufficient proof of guilt.”
No, the prosecutor should only bring charges in cases where he believes in his professional assessment that the evidence indicates beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime for which he is charged. A judge, jury or higher court may ultimately disagree with that assessment, but that does not make him incompetent. I’ve seen highly competent prosecutors lose trials and generally incompetent ones win them. In fact, I would guarantee you that the list of prosecutors (with some trial experience) who have never lost a trial would be pretty small.
“The bar for competence on the defense side is not the same as the bar for competence on the prosecution side.”
No, the prosecutor and defense attorney’s duties to justice are different, but the bar for competence of all lawyers is pretty much the same. In no situation does it require winning 100% of your cases.
“‘the prosecutor should only be bringing cases where there is sufficient proof of guilt.’
No, the prosecutor should only bring charges in cases where he believes in his professional assessment that the evidence indicates beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime for which he is charged.”
Other than the wordiness of the second one, what is the difference between these two?
” In fact, I would guarantee you that the list of prosecutors (with some trial experience) who have never lost a trial would be pretty small. ”
duh? You don’t say?
” In no situation does it require winning 100% of your cases.”
Again… duh?
It turns out that if you have a defense counsel who appears to be visibly sleeping during your capital trial may not be sufficient to get you an ineffective defense of counsel ruling. Having a defense counsel who asks no questions of prosecution witnesses, never once objects during the prosecution’s case, and puts on a defense that takes less than an hour to present… in a capital case… may not be sufficient to get an ineffective defense of counsel ruling.
Or, here’s a local example. Suppose your grand jury returns a “no-bill”, and your defense attorney advises you to take the plea deal.
Not every place is suburbia. Not every comment thread is your local parenting facebook group. And not every parenting error requires jail time.
There are still places in the US and Canada where people routinely leave their houses unlocked all the time, where they leave their car keys in the ignition at all times, and even leave their cars running while they run into the store. There still are places where 3 cars in a row count as heavy traffic, where the real threat to your privacy is the local gossip monger, and not social media.
27 minutes is too long to leave these little kids in the car. Even Mrs. Hypes admits that. Oops. But, this was in rural northern Michigan. Not Detroit. Not Silver Springs, MD. CPS investigated and apparently determined that this mistake wasn’t part of a pattern of neglect. Mr & Mrs. Hypes made a bad call when things went haywire at Walmart. They were embarrassed and investigated for their bad decision. They acknowledge that it was a mistake. That should be enough.
It doesn’t look like a crime was committed to me, so the prosecution is just to sate our collective blood lust. For so many of us, our Colosseum is the media and the comment section of our local facebook group. So many of us yearn to see the gladiators and wild animals slaughter the innocent for our entertainment. The prosecutor would be absolutely astonished to read Lenore’s article, and many of our comments defending the Hypes…“are you not entertained?” he might ask us.
In my opinion, it would have been completely acceptable if they had been in and out of Walmart in 5 minutes like they had planned. Stuff happens. The kids were fine…of course they were, the Hypes knew they would be. The 7 month old was sleeping in a 5-point harnessed car seat. They Hypes know their almost 4-year old better than we do, and they know if their pickup truck has child-locks on the doors, they know if their almost 4-year old can or cannot undo the seat belt. And, they were right, the kids were fine, the almost 4-year old didn’t try to go on an adventure or poke the baby in the eye.
The Hypes made a mistake. It was in the morning on the way to work. Stress, exhaustion, not enough coffee, kids complaining. I’ve made worse mistakes in similar circumstances.
I am a Michigan attorney. Where are these people located? I may be able to help or I can refer them to someone in that area.
James, not surprisingly, has a very magical way of thinking about the prosecutor. I know that TV shows can give the impression that the justice system is a certain way, but I can assure you that it is not always as simple as saying the prosecutor is impartial or an idiot. I once believed this, but after a few years of practice, I have seen that cases picked for prosecution can range anywhere in between those previously mentioned extremes.
FWIW, a citizens arrest in MI can only be made for a felony or certain misdemeanors (if you are a merchant).
“No one is suggesting that very young children should routinely be left for 27 minutes in the car, alone…”
“Nice disclaimer. But then you proceed to defend the parents’ actions, blaming instead your go-to bogeyman, the Big Bad Government, for the consequences of the parents’ neglectful actions. And then you take at face value and believe, with no healthy skepticism whatsoever, the parents’ story. Did you bother to corroborate their story with other witnesses? Did you talk with the Walmart employees? The police? The CPS?”
You may be right. There is probably a lot more to this story that we don’t know. Personally, if I had my husband with me, he’d be sitting in the car with the kids while I did the shopping. I have no idea why they both went in together and left the kids alone or why one didn’t leave and get back to the kids. I’ve had many parenting moments that didn’t go as planned. Once, after just giving birth to my second baby, I ran out of milk. The baby was days old and my older one a toddler. I dragged them in the store. As I walked out with one hand on the infant carrier and the other with my groceries, I had my son cling on to my leg to walk through the parking lot because I couldn’t hold his hand. He tripped and pulled my loose sweat pants down and I was wearing ugly granny underwear. I penguin walked to my car and pulled my pants up, strapped the kids in their seats, and sat in the front seat and cried for a very long time. Most parenting choices are imperfect. What if my toddler son who fell got struck by a car or ran through the lot?
But I have to ask why leaving them *alone* in a car has become such a danger to children and what facts back it up. All of our parents in the 60’s, 70’s, and even 80’s routinely left their kids in the car, even very young ones. They would all be in jail for the way the raised us. I have to wonder what has changed to make this practice so dangerous. There are too many real parenting crimes of criminal abuse and neglect that get lost in importance when we start arbitrarily calling lthe practice of leaving kids in cars a crime. It may be a very bad choice, but is this what you think is actual abuse? How the majority of parents raised kids in previous generations?
27 minutes…sitting and waiting?
I kind of agree with Akiva, Another Katie, and others on this one. Even by the mothers own letter she comes off as dumb and immature. And given we don’t have the other side I’m thinking this may have been worse than she made it sound and there is probably more to the story.
Hey Katie, there is always “more to the story”. That’s life though, isn’t it? We have to make decisions and take positions based on limited and incomplete information all the time.
When I hear someone say, “There must be more to the story” it seems like it is usually said to rationalize a harsh judgement based on only part of the story.
“it is not always as simple as saying the prosecutor is impartial or an idiot. I once believed this…”
Why would anyone believe that the prosecutor is impartial? It ‘s not the prosecutor’s job to be impartial, it is the prosecutor’s job to be extremely partial. They represent one of the parties.
(The only idiot prosecutor I’ve ever heard of was DA Hamilton Burger. That guy NEVER charged the right person.)