Is a Child “Unaccompanied” if the Parent Is Close By?

Reading stuff like this makes me so angry! It also makes me thankful for where I live. So many times I read things on this blog and am truly shocked because it is so different where I live. I live in the suburbs in the mid-west. A few weeks ago my 7 year old son wanted to check something out at the library. He knew exactly what he wanted so I dropped him off at the door and he went in with his own library card. A couple of minutes later he was back out with his materials. No one questioned him, no one detained him, no one even wondered as he left the library alone. I fear that this craziness will creep across the country and will eventually take over everywhere. I am thankful that my kids are able to grow up without all the craziness but I worry what kind world my grandkids will someday live in 🙁

(By to remember I obviously mean to be encouraged by seeing this example of free-range parenting in action on a neighborhood scale, because of course Free-Range Parenting readers would already see this as the positive and empowering experience that it is for these kids.)

Remember to be cautious when talking to the police. In a case like this, they are not your “friend”, they are an agent of the State investigating whether or not a crime as been committed (in their view anyway).

I agree that the whole thing was out of line–from the librarian slamming her hand on the desk to involving the police. My husband and I both work/worked in public libraries. In some libraries, it’s a huge problem that children get dropped off after school (while their parents are still working) and the library gets used as a type of free babysitting. So the librarian is forced into assuming the role of crowd controller rather than doing what she’s supposed to which is helping kids find books or research for homework. I am all for free ranged kids–don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think this particular policy is necessarily born out of fear as much as it might be a way to limit people abusing the library and it’s staff. I don’t know anything about this particular library, but I figured I’d offer an alternative explanation.

Personally, I think that being accompanied means in the same place. So while you were right behine him, you weren’t inside (only by a few seconds, but still). Unfortunately, the librarian and police took it to the next step which did not need to be taken. Maybe a simple “Hey, you need to be in the same builing, please.”

I don’t think you need to stalk your childe in the library (or anywhere). But if the policy states that they must be accompanied, I would just make sure I am in the building.

Also, 13 is waaaaaaay to old to be acoompanied in the library. Really…13? That’s almost a high school freshman. Can you imagine. Next thing you know there will be more parents at the prom than students! Speaking of, I chaperoned the prom at the high school I work at and I could not believe how many parents asked to come into the prom to take pictures and see the kids! Are you kidding. i would have killed my parents!

I really think the librarians are in a tough position on this. Of course I think it’s silly to regard a child whose mom is within sight a few yards away as “unaccompanied,” andn I’m thankful my library system engages in no such nonsense, but I can pretty much guess at what’s motivating them here: people who let their kids act disruptively, people who treat the librarians like babysitters and worse, the library itself like a free drop-in center for kids who are there well beyond a reasonable opportunity to actually use the library’s services, and don’t always behave appropriately while doing so. And in their position, it’s just far simpler to make a blanket rule of “no unaccompanied kids” and enforce it to the hilt even where it’s ridiculous, than to constantly have to cope both with people who are actually abusing the situation, and the constant judgment calls of who might be “okay.”

I’m not saying this zero-tolerance approach is at all the answer, I’m just saying that when criticizing the policy and suggesting what they should do instead, it’s good to keep in mind the genuine issues that provoke such overreactions. I honestly *don’t* know what the answer is in a community where people do the “free drop-in center” thing. Obviously banning unaccompanied kids (even reasonably defined) over a reasonable age of 5 or 6 is not it, but what is?

(Ahem.) Don’t forget, the library may not be able to set its own policies–often library policies are set by the city or county government. There’s often a one-sized-fits-all approach that’s applied to all municipal buildings.

That being said, 13 seems a little (okay, a lot) extreme. Most libraries I’ve seen have a policy that’s something like this one:

“Children eight (8) years old or less who are left on Library property without an accompanying adult, parent or guardian in the building often require individual attention by staff to the point that regular library services are disrupted. When a child in this age group is found unattended, Library staff will contact the parent(s) to immediately attend to the child at the Library. Police may be called to provide assistance. More than one such occurrence will result in suspension of Library privileges.”

A lot of libraries have had problems with parents treating the children’s area as free babysitting. So don’t forget, the library policy may not be so much about the safety of children as making sure that the library staff are able to do the jobs that they’re paid to do.

I would do a search for library policies on unattended children, gather up some more reasonable (or nuanced) policies, and then ask for a meeting with either the library director or the board. Honestly, I don’t think you’re going to get permission for your child to get on the elevator by himself at the age of 4.5, but maybe you’ll be able to talk them into making a less-restrictive policy.

1. I don’t think your son was unaccompanied; you can always politely argue that point. You may even suggest (if the librarian has a sense of humour) that a new set of rules be made; like
“Children 1-3 must be holding hands with an accompanying adult, whereas children 4-7 must always remain at no less than 6 feet from said adult. Over that age, it would suffice to remain within eyesight from their accompanying adult”.
2. Violent situations tend to make my stomach churn, too. It helps that you keep in mind that it was the librarian who caused all the fuss, not you. BTW, congratulations for your well-behaved boy. Mine’s almost 5 and he doesn’t seem to be able to keep his voice down in the library yet!
3. My kids are all amazing chatterboxes. This comes in very handy when something like this happens, as they voice their confusion and claim answers. It’s funny how they sometimes manage to disarm nosy adults with “innocent” remarks. Perhaps if you told your boy to go to the librarian first, and tell her that “Mummy’s parking her car and will be right here; I promise I’ll behave”…

I was curious about our library’s policies, so I looked them up and for once, was pleasantly surprised:

1. The responsibility for the safety and well-being of every child using the library rests with the child’s parent, guardian or assigned chaperone, not with library personnel.
2. Children under the age of six must be attended by a responsible adult or teen at all times.
3. Children age six and seven should be under the general supervision of an adult, but may be left unattended for a brief period of time.
4. Children age eight and over, who can understand and follow the Customer Code of Conduct, are welcome to be in the library unattended.

I recall hearing that there was an issue at our library for a while with parents dropping off their kids at the library and leaving them there for hours. And I am not talking teenagers, I am talking little kids. I suspect their rule might be a response to librarians being treated like babysitters.

While I understand that it is inappropriate to have several small children alone in the library, I don’t agree with their rule. It’s simple enough to state that children are not to be left alone at the library under the age of ***. And they need to remember that adolecent kids are capable of walking to the library, checking out some books, and leaving on their own. This seems to be a blanket rule that is quite overkill.

Policy? Tell the librarian that YOUR policy says your child can run ahead, and that trumps the library’s policy.

My library requires that kid’s under 10 be accompanied by an adult. My definition of “accompanied” is that I bring her to the building and remain on the premise while she’s there. I don’t define it as being in the children’s section with her at all times. I also would never ask the librarian to keep and eye on her. When I thought that she was too young to stay in the children’s section by herself, I stayed with her. Now I think it’s okay to go off and look at adult books while she’s in the children’s section.

I would question a 4.5 year old walking into the library by himself, however, once you appeared shortly thereafter, the librarian blew it way out of proportion. A simple “we’d prefer you walk in with him so we know he hasn’t just been left here” would have been the better approach if that was the concern.

I can’t find a policy on that topic on our library’s website — I suspect it’s because they either don’t feel the need to have one, or don’t feel the need to publicize it because it’s not that big a deal anyway.

I’ll say it again — for Free-Ranging, short of a really rural area, nothing beats living in a small city with a high rate of poverty and social problems where the authorities don’t have the luxury of worrying about things like how far five year olds are from their parents. Of course I kid, though it’s really not funny — but it really is true that the worst regulations come in two situations: where things are so out of control that only a police state mentality is perceived to be the solution, and where there aren’t enough real problems to worry about so public officials can spend their time being busybody control freaks.

@Cyndi, I think it’s funny that your library considers a 14 year old mature enough to accompany small children, but the library in the post deems a 12 year old far too young to be left alone. Funny how perceptions of maturity and capability can vary so widely from one place to the next.

13 seems nuts. Out of curiosity I looked up the policy for my hometown library and found this:

A child under the age of eight must be supervised while in the library. Library staff members are not responsible for this supervision.

I then looked up the policy for the library in the city I currently live in and found this:

Children age 8 and under may not be left unattended in the library. They must be accompanied by a parent or other responsible person (age 15 or older) at all times. Parents and/or responsible persons are accountable for their children’s behavior and safety while in the library.

Children shall be considered “attended” as long as they are within sight of the parent or other responsible person. An exception would be children attending a story time or other library program without a parent/responsible person in the room. However, the parent/responsible person must remain in the library building and immediately join the child at the end of the program.

Both of those policies seem reasonable to me. 13 is just plain silly.

Hey Lenore,

Regarding the line, there’s a horizontal rule () tag in the post that’s causing it.

I get that large institutions feel the need to make blanket policies, but tying this stuff to age instead of maturity level is insane. I know some 13 year olds who I would not trust on their own (partly because of infantilizing helicopter parents who have never given them any responsibility), and I know some 6 year olds who can handle going to the library by themselves. The rule should be about disruptive behavior, not age.

The calendar on this site is broken.

Hi,

As a librarian, I have to say that we rarely get to set our policies. They are generally dictated to us, and if we try and fudge the rules, we can get in serious trouble. (The whole culture of fear is pervasive amongst government lawyers. We have a whole department that is just supposed to manage risk. (i.e. magician’s using fire or live animals such as doves, people bringing food to storytime that might cause an issue with allergies, unaccompanied minors who could trip and fall or have a bathroom accident in the middle of the library causing a biohazard, etc. ) Also, some cities do have a policy about unaccompanied children. I don’t know that I’ve heard of the age being as high as 13, but I have been in places where it was 11. If the city or county has a law, we have to follow it.

While I wouldn’t bat an eye over a child of 7 or so coming into the library, a child under 5 entering the building and then getting onto the elevator without an adult in sight would make me worry about a problem in the children’s area. I wouldn’t worry that the child would be in danger, but because a large number of kids at that age haven’t learned how to behave in a library yet. I constantly have to remind kids to use their inside voices, because if I don’t, I’m over run with complaints about the noise level and I end up babysitting. I’m then frequently yelled at by the parent for “correcting” their child. I’m sure that the police officer wasn’t called in specifically because of the child, but was either stationed at the library or there on other business. He probably sat the boy down because he came off the elevator alone and there wasn’t a parent with him. The officer couldn’t have known that the adult was only one elevator ride behind.

Finally, it’s very, very likely that the “librarian” wasn’t actually a librarian, but a clerk. It doesn’t excuse her behavior, which was deplorable, but you need a Masters in Library Science to be a librarian. Normally only the top two or three people at a library branch are actual librarians. We’re trained in conflict management and customer service. Clerks (the people who check out the books) tend to have even less leeway about bending rules than librarians do, and thus tend to react more strongly to perceived infractions. Once again, it doesn’t excuse horrific customer service.

If someone wants to encourage their child to be more free range at a younger age, it would be kindest to everyone to let the library know ahead of time. If I had a parent call up and tell me that they were going to be sending in their four year old alone so they could learn to be more independent and they’d be following in a few minutes, I wouldn’t worry when I saw the child. I’d probably even go out of my way to make sure that he or she felt comfortable and welcome. Once again, if it’s an older child, there wouldn’t be an issue at all, but seeing a child under 5 without a parent is such an anomaly in our society that a head’s up would be the best way to prevent misunderstandings.

When I was 8 years old (25 years ago), I got shooed out of the house almost daily with my 4 year old brother to go to the library, about a 5-6 block walk that involved crossing one semi-major street. We’d stay for hours.

Now, when I take my kids (7 yo twin boys) to the library, we tend to each look in our own sections, and I “supervise” only when the “hey Mommy, can you…” gets really loud or it’s time to go home. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have enough time in the library.

That’s ridiculous, 13? Does anyone remember the movie Matilda, how she started going to the library when she was what…3 or 4? She walked there by herself every single day and read every book in the children section by the time she was 7 so she moved on to the adult section. Her parents were neglectful bums so she just did everything by herself. I’m not advocating that parents should be neglectful, obviously, but I do believe that a little moderate neglect is helpful in developing a sense of independence and confidence. OP, I just hope your son is not too shaken up by the incident and thinks that he needs to stay right next to you at all times or he will get in trouble.

Umm I am going to say that if they have a rule of under 13 must be accompanied than I think you should stay very close to him. Another floor not being close enough. Even if you think he would be fine, it is their building and it is their decision. They are the ones who have to deal with teh consequences if he rips up a bunch of books or makes a huge mess etc. That I can guarantee you is part of the reason the policy was put in place. Some kids are butts and their parents expect workers to babysit their kids and that is not their job and then things get messed up.

I would not let my kids do that at that age. Now I would be way more on your side if you kids were older but not yet 13 like 8+ because most kids at that age know not to rip up books or make messes, but they are going to be way more wary of a 4 year old than a 10 year old.

I worked in a toy store in the mall and it was the same thing. Parents would send their kids in and expect us to babysit them while the parents shopped. That is not our job. I had to clean up their messes and keep them out of trouble. I had kids climbing shelves and trying to ride cars out of the store and all kinds of shenanigans. Sometimes even with the parents being in the store I still had to do this because some parents act so oblivious to what their kids are doing.

Businesses and a library is a business have a right to not want kids running around without their parents monitering them.

Tell the head librarian that you’ll boycott the library, and encourage other mothers you know to do so as well, until they change the rule.

Crap. I hope that’s not policy here. My daughter will be 11 in a few weeks and I was planning to let her spend a few days at the library across from my office (walking distance, albeit across a 5-lane highway with no crosswalks, so she won’t be traversing by herself). There are several days when she didn’t have other activities planned this summer and I was thinking this would be a good solution as sitting in my office is quite boring. She loves to read and she’s well-behaved and quiet, so I figured it would be a good place for her to hang out for a few hours each day. They would never know she was there unless she went to the desk and begged them to let her work (which she probably will do). I wouldn’t be upset if they let her shelve books. If she volunteers 15 hours, she gets a free library card for the year, which saves me $50.

When I was a child, my (working) parents left myself and my sisters off with my grandparents for the entire summer. My grandparents were already fairly elderly and no match for three energetic kids. We were allowed to ramble around the neighborhood more or less on our own as long as we were home for meals and bedtime, and this included being able to bike down to the library in their little New England town.

At this library, I read hundreds of books over the years. I was “unaccompanied” probably half the time, and almost never “accompanied” by an adult. It was implicit that if I violated the rules of the library I’d simply be turned outside (as happened once to my sister, when she got an uncontrollable case of the giggles over some passage she was reading). And that was sufficient.

God help all of us if children can’t be allowed to use the public library without mediation, but letting them hole up in their rooms playing video games is considered “safe”.

“The policies that have been put into place are NOT because of the library (or librarians) wanting to stifle reading, but rather because some PARENTS are either irresponsible, neglectful, or litigious.”

This is a familiar argument and it is always an extremely illogical and dumb argument. How about if we extend that thought process to other areas, for example some people speed so all driving is prohibited. But of course we don’t do that, we make laws against speeding, harass speeders and then leave those who want to follow the rules alone.

It is no different to say some 7 year olds don’t know how to act in the library alone so all 7 year olds should be accompanied by parents. A better idea would be to post rules of the library and indicate that people who violate them, regardless of age, will be made to leave.

And, if the theory is that irresponsible parents are not teaching their kids to behave in the library, what help exactly is having those same irresponsible parents present with their children? Clearly THEY don’t know the rules of the library or care to teach them to their children so you haven’t solved a problem at all. You’ve now just made it so the same children break the rules while their parents sit by and watch.

Donna: Except I can think of many parents who would refuse to pay for what books their kid damaged. Either because they don’t have the money or don’t care to pay it. As I said working in a toy store I had kids vandalize toys whether they be display models or models to sell. The parents would not pay for it either. They have to make rules to protect their own asses and property and sometimes the bad apples ruin it for everyone, but that is just the way it is.

Well one reason for blanket policies or zero tolerance policies is fear of someone calling discrimination. Unfortunately since people do that they had to institute these blanket policies. For example, say they were just going to do a case by case basis and only kick out the ill behaved kids. Here come an ill behaved kid thats Hispanic. They remove him from the library, next thing you know you got them claiming you are racist against Hispanics and the ACLU is getting involved and lawsuits are getting made. I hate that its our current reality in this country but I see it a lot. So they institute these blanket zero tolerance policies so that no one can claim to be getting special treatment or discriminated against and they just make everyone pay for it and follow it. Its not right, but that is why a lot of rules are like that now.

I just checked our library. They don’t have a specific policy listed ANYWHERE that I can find! In the library children’s area it just says children need to be accompanied but nothing indicating exactly what that means. I’ve left my almost 8 year old daughter in the children’s area by herself to browse while I go to the adult area on the next floor up, but I would NEVER leave my almsot 5 son there without me nearby. Not because he’d damage the books but because he is so dang LOUD and probably would want to play hide and seek in the stacks!

The post by Donna and especially Lafe make SO much sense. The post by Mombo5? Not so much, that’s just pure rubbish on display.

What Dolly was talking about somewhat makes sense as well, in terms of the businesses & libraries etc not wanting unruly children trashing the place. That’s an absolutely understandable concern, and it’s totally understandable to make policies towards that end. The key aspect for me is this–is the rule in place to prevent children from trashing the place, or is it out of a misguided sense of “you can never leave a child alone for 5 nanoseconds else they’ll be another Jaycee Dugard.”

That’s why I have often-times said, to me, it’s not enough to know what the rules are, but WHY they are what they are. It got me in trouble as a child–when I’d ask my mother “why” about a rule and she replied “because I said so,” I would actually say “that’s not good enough–you have to explain WHY or else I’m not going to obey it.” Needless to say, that earned me a number of slaps on the jaw, ha ha.

As a child, curiousity aside, the adults know the deal–relatively speaking, you know nothing whatsoever–so you should just do as you’re told. As a an adult, though, that’s an insult to my intelligence. I’m not going to robotically just do whatever people tell me “because it’s the rule,” I want to know the spirit & attitude behind the rule, and if I don’t agree with it, then as Lenore mentioned (I believed)–suggest a change in the rule that’s more suitable towards meeting that need without being so overbearing towards those who aren’t really in violation of it.

Even if the rules are about control of children to prevent vandalism, noise etc, it sounds as if the poster’s situation wasn’t about that at all, and rules should be flexible towards accommodating such context, rather than being so rigid. It reminds me of when I was in college & stayed on campus. I loved to enjoy loud music but the resident advisor (RA) was rather strict about it, so much so even a clock radio seemed to be too loud. However, during fall break, almost all of the students were gone, he & I remained but we were just about it. He made it clear to me: as long as I wasn’t rocking at, say 11 pm, he would relax the standards greatly, because the rules about noise were for the respect of other persons’ quiet, but almost no other such persons were around to be affected, so what was the point?

That’s the sort of rule interpretation we need, not a draconian “rules are rules” black & white type of deal. And if the rules are about fear of kidnappers etc vs preventing children vandalizing the place, the rule needs to be thrown out altogether to start with.

That is where I disagree with Dolly–a rotten apple does NOT spoil the whole barrel, unless you LET it. People who use that saying in making the rules & enforcing the rules that way are justifying lazy interpretation, sort of like what Donna was saying–some drivers are reckless, so let’s just ban all driving. That’s not “the way it is,” that’s just lazy enforcement & a retarded way of thinking.

LRH

@stephanie: I agree librarians should NOT have to supervise the kids.

If a parent drops off Suzy at the library and Suzy decides to instead slink back out the front door and smoke pot with her boyfriend instead, then that is not, and should not be, the librarian’s problem.

Hehe.. I love my area when it comes to this stuff. They haven’t quite been hit with the full-hysteria that seems to have infiltrated other municipalities:

Rules of Conduct
#9. Parents are responsible for the behavior of their children while they are on Library property. Children under the age of eight must be attended by a parent or other responsible caregiver age 14 or older at all times while on Library property.

*Thumbs Up!*

The thing is, this is not about disruptive kids, or kids dropped off at the library.

This is about someone overreacting, badly, to someone who was not rightnexttotheirkid.

How about, I dunno, waiting about 3 minutes and observing the child before freaking out and calling the cops? How about using some common sense? I’ve saved myself an awful lot of embarrassment and grief over the years by just keeping my mouth shut for a few minutes and observing. If a little kid is about to walk into a busy street, that’s different. Buf if a little kid is just standing on the sidewalk, I’ll wait to see if mom is maybe making her way down the block to meet him before I freak out and call CPS to report an unattended child. But that’s just me.

“Except I can think of many parents who would refuse to pay for what books their kid damaged. ”

Fine. This is a library, not a store. It gets put on their account and they cannot check out another item until it’s paid. My guess is that as a government entity, there are also other ways to collect the money.

“They have to make rules to protect their own asses and property and sometimes the bad apples ruin it for everyone, but that is just the way it is.”

But, that’s the problem, an age rules DOESN”T protect their property. It assumes that the problem is age and not tearing up books. My child hasn’t intentionally torn a book since she was 1.5 (and age where NO child should be left in a library unattended). My brother got bored and drew in some books at 12 to be obnoxious. Age does not determine propensity to ruin books. If the 12 year old damages a book and the parents refuse to pay, the library is stuck in the exact same position.

“Well one reason for blanket policies or zero tolerance policies is fear of someone calling discrimination.”

And yet we manage, in every other aspect of life, to have rules addressing specific behavior and punish the people who break those rules without resorting to zero tolerance policies. Try going into court and fighting a speeding ticket on the basis of discrimination. While I think you are more likely to be pulled over if you are a person of some color, ultimately, the I-was-speeding-but-they-only-pulled me-over-because-I-am-hispanic defense is not going to get you far.

As long as the library is legitimately only penalizing rule-breakers regardless of race, color, religion and sexual orientation, it’s fine (and if they are not, they deserve to be sued). Zero tolerance rules are just lazy.

“I’d be most concerned about parents expecting us to be responsible for their children remaining at the library after they drop them off, as opposed to, say, sneaking off somewhere to smoke or drink or otherwise get into mischief. ”

That’s not the libraries problem, nor is it cured by any of these rules. I’m guessing that the 13+, the age that is allowed to be unattended at the library, set is much more likely to be sneaking out the back door of the library to smoke, drink and meet up with boyfriends than the 10 and under set.

“That said, we could empty the building every single day by the half hour after school gets out.”

Which does nothing but reinforce the point that age limits are unhelpful. “After school” indicates that the children at issue actually attend school. Unless all the trouble makers are in early elementary school, they are ABOVE the age where they are allowed to be unaccompanied in the library … unless you are proposing that nobody under 18 ever be allowed in the library unattended.

I hear what you are saying about blanket policies being bad. Here’s a slightly different perspective. Misbehaving kids are a time suck away from people who want to legitimately use the library.

Think about your job, every hour, you have to spend 10 minutes dealing with a co-worker who should know how to do their job but does not. At the end of the day you’ve lost 80 minutes. At the end of the week, you’ve lost well over 6 hours. And that’s on a good day. On a bad day, we spend a minimum of 3 hours dealing with misbehaving kids.

That’s 6 to 15 hours that I am not helping you find the book you want, planning a program for you to attend, thoughtfully ordering books for you to read, running a program where you can both have fun and learn something, building a bulletin board that highlights our resources, labeling books so that you can tell at a glance whether they are a genre you are interested in, visiting your schools to talk about books and show your kids how great the library is, teaching you how to use our databases as a more reliable source of information than the internet, shelving the books that got taken out and weren’t needed, checking the shelves to fix the mistakes patrons make when they try to help us, creating booklists to help you find books like that last great one you read, and on and on and on.

Your kids are welcome in our library. Just please understand that we have jobs to do too and it’s better for us to nip a problem in it’s bud than wait for it to bloom.

“Under 13 must be accompanied by parent”?!

Holy craziness out the wazoo! Why even have libraries?!

Heather — you’ll refer her to your lawyer husband? Isn’t that part of the attitude that has created this whole mess in the first place? how about — you’ll take the issue to the library board to see if you can get the policy made more sensible?

I think the library has policies and either you work to get them changed or you follow them, though in this case I agree the librarian or clerk wasn’t exactly diplomatic in her approach.

But as someone else said, what on earth is a police officer doing working the library????

but as

The police are often in libraries to deal with gang problems, vandalism, irate, screaming patrons, crazy patrons who will hit or harass staff members and the public, be present for knife and fist fights, and be a general deterrent to bad behavior with a daily walk through. That’s not fearmongering, that’s what life in the library is like, and not in an inner city either.

Where the HELL is this place? That very important information is lacking from this post.

Wow. I have have just been waiting for this exact same senario to happen to me. Our local library is built so you must enter a foyer and then take an elevator or the stairs to the second floor where the books are. Our 5 year old’s biggest thrill is going up the elevator by herself while I walk up the stairs and meet her at the top. Most of the time I beat her there. I figure its only a matter of time before a “concerned parent” turns me in. By the way, the elevator only goes to the two floors, so it’s not as if she’s going to get lost anywhere.

I decided to check the rules at my own library and was expecting it to be far more restrictive. I don’t think it can more free-range than this!

——————————————-
Young children may not be left unattended anywhere in the library, including areas designated for children. A parent, guardian, or other responsible adult must accompany any children who cannot communicate their first and last names, their phone number, and the first and last name of the person who brought them to the library.

While staff is concerned about the safety and well-being of children and young adults, they cannot assume responsibility for them in the absence of the parent or guardian.

Incidentally, like everybody else, I decided to check the rules for unattended children at our library.

http://www.nypl.org/help/about-nypl/legal-notices/rules-and-regulations#children

This rule gives a lot of leeway instead of set ages, but it seems to be saying “If your child is not at risk or breaking the rules, it’s okay for them to be there.” Certainly I see a lot of kids there accompanied only by a big sibling.

(Just yesterday I saw a very intelligent four year old girl trying hard to learn to read so she’d be ready for kindergarten. I found some easy books, set her up with my kindergartener niece to read to her, and then set her up with the older niece to read to them both once homework was done. She told me plainly she was there “with her brother”, though when I saw her mother later it seems like her brother had basically just ditched her in the kid’s section for the one and a half hours she was there. Given that the kid is four, maybe five, I agreed with her mom’s assessment that no matter HOW smart and well-behaved she is, somebody should’ve been closer than two floors away for at least SOME of that time. But she enjoyed herself and really was an absolute doll, and I told her mother so on my way out.)

It’s important to note that NYC has three library systems – the NYPL, the Brooklyn Public Library, and the Queens Public Library. Your card can take out books from all three systems, but you have to return books to the correct system (but not necessarily the exact branch). The different systems may also have different rules regarding children.

Regarding the comment that misbehaving kids distract from librarians’ time – that is all the more true for misbehaving kids whose parents are right there (since little brats are rottener for their parents), and also more true for misbehaving kids over 13 vs. under 13.

Why do we assume that all kids under 13 will misbehave in the library? Why do we assume that parents of young kids are too stupid or irresponsible to decide whether or not their kid is ready for a little freedom in the library?

Does anyone know where I can find state laws about leaving kids unsupervised in various situations, or the legal age that kids can be “unaccompanied”? I can’t seem to find anything definitive. Also, is there an email address where I can get in touch with Lenore?

Jane–I have asked around, and done plenty of reading on the subject etc, I’ve been IN the libraries myself, and still–no, I just don’t believe libraries are THAT bad. If we are to believe they are that bad, then we are to believe that parks should be kids-only because all males there are perverts, and yes–for you to have a heart attack just because a 4 year-old boards an elevator alone, that just confirms that it’s all paranoia-based schizophrenia and not at all a realistic assessment of how things really are.

LRH

LRH, respectfully, unless you’ve spent 40 hours a week in a library at a variety of days and times, you don’t know the situation as well as someone who works at one.

Anyway, most of this conversation is irrelevant. The rules are what they are. I suggest that Mom goes to library management- NOT someone at the checkout desk, but somebody in the administration who actually can make policy- and ask why. It could be for any number of reasons: hell-raising kids, unsavory grownups hanging around the children’s room, insurance liability, what have you. If the reason for the rule doesn’t seem clear enough to you, maybe you can ask if it can be changed.

But remember, what the library staff saw was you dropping your small child off in front of the building and driving away. They didn’t know you were coming right in. You probably scared the life out of them. Not saying that the desk staff should ever have been so rude, but what you did was not ideal.

Your post reminded me of my own free-range childhood. My mother taught music lessons in a downtown studio several times a week, and I would go with her to babysit my baby sister (I was 7, baby sister was 2). Once the baby fell asleep, I was free to go one of several places while she napped. One was across the usually-empty street to the library, where I’d happily wander not only the children’s section, but occasionally delve into the non-fiction “grown-up” books. No one ever questioned my right to be there; in fact, the only comment I ever got was “are you sure you can carry ALL those books by yourself?” at the check-out. I often carried back 2 stacks of books that were higher than my chin from each visit.

The other place I’d go, when I had plenty of reading material, was across a very busy (3 lanes in each direction) street to the Fantastic Sam’s hair “salon”. I went there about once a month for a trim, and then the sweet ladies who worked there would “style” my hair – usually in some bizarre version of a French Braid because I’d ask for “something new and different.” Then back across 6 lanes of traffic (jay-walking! *gasp*) and stop off at the Wendy’s for a small Frosty to share with my little sister when she woke up from her nap.

Now, out of my own 4 children, only my oldest, at 14, would be allowed “unattended” in that library? How ludicrious!!! How in the world are they going to learn to explore all there is to find in a library, and love everything about libraries with mom breathing down their necks? I’m not even saying they have to go in alone, or be left completely by themselves, but give them some space!

Your writer was doing exactly the right thing. Kudos to her!!!

Jane’s right–despite all the discussion, there are really 2 main issues here. One is the library’s policy. The other is the behavior of the staff member. I would see if you can meet with the director, and a) describe the hostile behavior you encountered, then b) ask if 13 and under is *really* the policy. Bring a couple of more reasonable policies from peer libraries, and find out if there’s any particular reason that your library’s policy can’t be changed.

Too many people are all too willing to jump to outrage before seeing if there’s any possibility of a reasonable solution.

And LRH, if you don’t like your own library’s policy, meet with the director or branch manager and find out *why* the policy exists.

SKL I say this as a general member of society, including for the fact that I have spent time in libraries recently, but I don’t nor ever have worked at a library.

However, I think it’s a weird combination of (1) the hysteria people are taking as fact, and (2) that parents often-times don’t discipline their children as much anymore, and don’t like other adults doing it.

Regarding (1) I think that’s obvious how many are now that way. Thus you have people advocating for parks that don’t allow any adults there who aren’t with their own kids, that you should be legally or morally forbidden from taking photos in public if someone else’s kids are in the line of fire or otherwise. You have people who really believe that a child being alone for 2-10ths of a second even at a library is in imminent danger of being whisked off to Mars, never to return.

You do, however, have some aspect of #2. I have had others in positions such as teaching etc tell me that in the past 30-odd years or so, parents don’t discipline their children as much and often-times don’t back the teachers when teachers discipline the kids for misbehaving.

As others have said, there is a difference between free-range and lack of control. It’s fine & dandy to, say, let children roam in a grocery store a bit vs having them on a 2-inch leash because you’re convinced the bogeyman is after them, but you have to also prevent them from knocking soup cans onto the floor.

The main thing, though, is that, though we are the parents & shouldn’t be undermined in terms of free-ranging, we also are goofing up in terms of telling kids that they don’t have to mind other adults. I wasn’t done that way. If someone was watching me for my parents, and I got in trouble with the babysitters, then I got it again at home. I never figured on my parents overriding the sitters. When the sitters were watching me, I always looked at them as being totally 100% able to discipline me THE SAME as my parents did.

By contrast, just a few days ago, I was at a hardware store getting parts to fix the shower, my 2 & 4 year old were being a bit too curious with the items on the shelf–the 4 year old especially. I was doing some correcting, and when the store clerk also did some, I BACKED him, I didn’t go “hey, don’t talk to my kids, that’s my job.”

But a LOT of parents nowadays do just that, and that’s just nonsense.

I think, SKL, that may be part of “what has changed.” We understand that crime etc is not it.

LRH

LRH, you are right about parents not liking other adults to discipline their kids. Personally I would be mortified if it happened, but it would be because I hadn’t done a good enough job myself – and I’d let my kids know (in NO uncertain terms) that had BETTER not happen again.

On “mom sites,” they occasionally have a discussion about this, and it’s strange to me how adamant moms are that they are the only people allowed to correct their kid. Many say that they’d do physical harm to anyone who even thought about it. Why? Is there an epidemic of public beatings by strangers that I haven’t heard about?

Our library treated our kids like criminals trying to get away with something when they tried to get library cards. They were reduced to tears and didn’t want to go back to the library. The next nearest library is 45 miles away in another county. So we go to the other one.

The library loves to get the tax money to put in the children’s book room. But the librarians don’t like it when kids show up and try to check out books, or look in the Juvenile fiction section rather than the tiny children picture book section.

Check out this policy from carnegie library system in Pittsburgh:

Unattended Children

An unattended child is a child of any age who is apparently unaccompanied by an adult. Parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers may not leave children alone or in the care of other children who are unable or unwilling to provide adequate care. Supervising adults must be close at hand.

As in all public places, “stranger danger” is a real concern. Library staff cannot prevent children from interacting with or leaving with persons who are not the appropriate chaperone.

Staff may refer to Allegheny County Children and Family Services for those children who are left unattended in the Library and whose basic needs for food, rest, parental supervision or attention are not being fulfilled.

If the Library is closing, at regular time or in an emergency situation, and a parent or guardian of a child cannot be located in the building, the City of Pittsburgh Police Department will be called.

The Library is not responsible for any consequences of parents forfeiting their responsibilities.

yeouch!

I have a six year old and we never encountered a problem, even when I let him go to the other side of the building to go to the bathroom by himself or when I went out to pay the parking meter. So the policy may be in place partly to have something to refer to for problem patrons.

We just moved to a small town in New Mexico and their policy says children under six may not be unattended. 🙂

This discussion reminded me of a favorite book from when my children were small. “Mike’s House” by Julia Sauer, (copyright 1954), gives a perspective on the different attitudes of that time. In the story, a 4yo boy adores the book “Mike Mulligan” and calls the library “Mike’s house” because it’s where the book lives. On a blustery day, he is dropped off at the door to go in for story time. His hat is blown away, and when he chases it he gets lost. He does as he’s been taught and looks for, and finds, a policeman. The cop takes him to the nearest diner, buys him a cup of cocoa, and proceeds to question him about where he’s supposed to be. With the help of the waitress they finally figure out that Mike’s house is actually the library. They arrive just as story time is letting out, and mom is walking up the sidewalk to get him. The book ends there, so we don’t know what the cop said to mom, but it sure doesn’t give the impression that it was a big deal.

What a contrast to the fuss a similar situation would cause today!

If this library is anything like the one at our AF base, the policy is probably more about unruly, disruptive kids and less about danger. Every time I go to the library, there is a large group of kids both inside and out, not reading or using computers, and totally disregarding the rules. If you had spent the morning trying to discipline obnoxious pre-teens running and yelling through the library with no parents present, you’d be frustrated and pounding your hands, too.
Just because you don’t like the policy doesn’t mean you are free to disregard it. Let him do his “navigating” on the sidewalk while you go to the park, or into the grocery. I imagine you wouldn’t like it if parents brought their children to your house and allowed them to break your rules. Have the same respect for the library.

I’ve posted this here before but thought it could help the OP and others dealing with draconian policies that keep kids out of libraries. Perhaps you can encourage your libraries to adopt this more child friendly policy that respects civil rights. I love the first sentence in point 1.

From Harris County Library Web Site
E. Unattended Children

1. Children have the same rights as adults to be in the library. They must follow library rules of behavior. If appropriate the parent or guardian may be called. If a child’s behavior necessitates them leaving the library, and this leaving could pose a risk to the child, the local law enforcement agency may be called as well as the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services (TDPRS), 599-5555.
2. Suspected child abuse or neglect must be reported to the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services (TDPRS), 599-5555.
3. In order to alleviate the problem of unattended children at closing time the following procedures may be used.
1. Before closing inform children of the time of closing and ask them if they need to make arrangements for transportation.
2. If necessary repeat this procedure.
3. Bookmarks and flyers may be requested to inform parents of this problem. See examples.
4. Write a press release. See example.
4. If a child is left unattended after hours the following procedures must be used if the child is at risk of being left unattended.
1. Verify if someone is coming to pick up the child.
2. Staff members must remain with a child until someone arrives to pick up the child.
1. Staff schedules may be need to be adjusted for this situation.
2. If possible two staff members should stay with the child.
3. If no one comes to pick up the child call the local law enforcement agency. Notify the Assistant County Librarian. Complete an Incident Report Form and forward to the Assistant County Librarian.
4. Parents arriving late should be given a letter explaining library policies and hours. See example.

http://www.hcpl.lib.tx.us/about/problem-behavior-policy

Again, it seems like there are two different problems here: children’s behavior in libraries, and the definition of ‘unaccompanied’.

Clearly, children need to be taught, from the age of zero, to behave in libraries. They need to respect the books, the librarians, and the quiet rules. Sometimes, though, I think the libraries set themselves up for problems. For example, the children’s section of our library has a bunch of toys, and this wavy looking long seat under the window. Very cool to sit on, stand on, and look out the windows at passing commuter trains. But the librarians spend all their time telling kids to get off of it. Why put such an attractive nusance in a children’s room if you don’t want children on it? Any parent could have told you that this is just begging to be climbed on. And why put a ton of wooden blocks and a puppet theater if you don’t want kids to make noise? Of course the kids don’t know what to do! You want them to be silent, but play with puppets? How does that work? The children’s section in the library I grew up near had books. That’s all. So you sat and read quietly. But if we give them toys, and computers with games, and puppets, and things to climb on, then we really shouldn’t be surprised when they make noise. I had to spend a lot of time teaching my kids that the rules change once you step into the grownup section.

And as I said before, people have developed this really narrow view of what constitutes ‘accompanied child’. Everyone needs to train themselves to stop jumping to instant conclusions and just learn to observe for a minute or two before freaking out.

Frances, I meant my husband would explain in lawyerese how silly their policy was, not bring a suit. He’s not even that kind of lawyer. I believe those people who would support such a nanny-state and would bully a mother into a guilt complex about letting her 5-year-old walk into a public library a minute before her would probably back down or at least think twice when confronted with the child’s father.
That may be sexist, but I’ll bet Lenore has more facts on how many times mothers have been given flak over free-range kids versus dads.

Susan,

Your anger is disturbing. When I read stuff like that it really makes me wonder if our society just doesn’t hate children.

Children can’t be in the library minding their own business because someone takes offense, you can’t take a child on a plane because s/he might disturb other passengers, the sounds of children playing in the park will not be tolerated by adults trying to enjoy the outdoors, etc…see my point?

All these you-can’ts seem to make children like a contageous disease which must be contained inside quaranteen :(.

BTW – exactly what is the children’s section of the library for? Adults?

Oh also, when I was in kindergarten even I would walk to the library, which was very close, alone or with a slightly older sister to get books. This was the norm. We’d go in and find books and check them out and come home. They didn’t have toys in libraries back then. I don’t know when that started but I think the toys might be part of the problem. Kids are going to want to go there to play if there are toys there, which isn’t a problem if it’s set up as a play destination, but you can’t put toys in a room and expect kids not to want to sit there and play. With each other, which involves talking and noise.

“What has changed that makes it so impossible now to allow this?”

Honestly, I think that the major thing that has changed is helicopter parenting – the belief that children need minding 24/7 and should never be without an adult.

I’ve read a lot of comments about people complaining that the librarian isn’t a babysitter. However, that requires the belief that children of all ages NEED a babysitter and that the parents clearly must be asking you to watch their children (without asking) because nobody would leave a child unattended in the library. As a matter of fact, mamy commenters say “the 8 year old was left in the library alone” as if it’s been abandoned rather than simply saying “the 8 was in the library alone.”

“As a librarian I have experience first hand the following:

1) Children left at the library for 8 hours. No food, drink or money. Some of the kids are under the age of 3!

2) Children taking care of children. Specifically 5 year olds taking care of 2 to 3 year olds. For hours not minutes.”

And this is major problem number 2 – the completely inability or unwillingness of at least American society to determine the difference between neglect and routine child care. With exception to older children being at the library for hours (with or without food – most libraries have water fountains which should be sufficient for drink), both scenarios above indicate neglect that I would think nothing of calling CPS about. A 3 year old should not be left anywhere except a paid babysitter for 8 hours a day (with or without food). My 5 year old could corral a 2 or 3 year old for a couple minutes but a 5 year old shouldn’t be left alone for hours. let alone with other children to mind. None of that means that a self-sufficient 8 year old can’t be alone at the library for a couple hours.

Major problem number 3 – The negative thinking the leads to the knee-jerk reaction that, if all can’t do it, this child can’t do it and parents are idiots. There are many 4.5 year olds who can go into the library by themselves for 20 seconds and not raise havoc and many who cannot. We used to accept that parents actually know the difference until proven otherwise. We didn’t address the situation unless it proved to be a problem – the kid came in and immediately started screaming. Now we assume that all parents are being negligent if they allow their children to do something that 100% of children at that age cannot accomplish and attack before seeing if the particular situation poses a problem.

“When I read stuff like that it really makes me wonder if our society just doesn’t hate children.”

I do get an overwhelming feeling of people disliking children in many parts of the US. Society seems to just not want to be bothered by them any more. I remember going many places with my parents as a child, even adult-oriented ones. Now we seem to want “children places” and “adult places.” CPS should be called if children are in “adult places.” Children must be supervised in “children places” by parents lest the adults who work in “children places” actually have to interact with the children, but those are the only adults allowed in “children places.” It’s truly sad.

It’s one of the major reasons that I don’t want to move away from where I live. It is so kid-welcoming. I spent yesterday evening at a bar with my 5 year old and nobody called DFACS to report negligent parenting. There were actually several kids in the bar ranging in age from infant to preteen … and a puppy. Not all the local bars are welcoming to children (a good thing since adults are entitled to their places too) but there is a definite feeling that kids and adults can share some of the same spaces.

Some of these comments are disturbing. If I take my kids to the library (there isn’t one close enough to walk), we’re there to use library resources. Not to “hang out” or get free child care! (Same was true when I went as a kid – all they had were books, and I went there to look at / borrow books! Huge crime!)

My taxes pay for the library and since it has a children’s section, it needs to accommodate my children. That means my kids are allowed to go into the children’s section with or without me and do the things that are appropriately done there. If there are toys, play appropriately with the toys and then put them back before leaving. Look at the books. That includes taking them off the shelves and possibly putting them back in the wrong place (which, hello, older people do too!). They are allowed to speak (not scream) to each other and to other kids/adults who may be there. They are allowed to use the bathroom. If you have a problem with any of this, don’t apply for the job of children’s librarian!

Judging from some above comments, my kids must be amazing, because they have NEVER yelled, run, mishandled a book, climbed, or otherwise created a disturbance or “mess” at a library. They can tell the atmosphere doesn’t allow rambunctious behavior – just as I could tell when I was a kid, without EVER being accompanied by my parents.

SKL: You are missing the point that yes, I bet your kids are well behaved because you are a good parent. But that is not every family! I see some kids who run through everywhere they go like a tornado destroying everything and their parents smile and think its cute. It if because of people like this, that rules get made unfortunately. I am not a fan of zero tolerance type policies. I am not defending them. I am just letting you know that just because your kids are good, that is not all kids. I worked in a lot of customer service jobs in different stores including a toy store, grocery store, movie theater, and I can assure you that I dealt with my share of ill behaved and messy and unattended kids and stupid, lazy, missing parents. I also had great kids and great parents. I could usually tell within a few minutes or even seconds which was which by their behavior and attitudes.

I guess our library is different and might change my overall opinion. We go to a small suburban library that is all one giant room with high ceilings and different sections. So if a kid is being loud at all it is going to bother everyone in the entire library. Maybe a bad design but nevertheless people deserve quiet when they are trying to read or study or research. So no, kids should not be being rambunctious at all at this particular library. That library does not have toys. It does have some computers, lots of books obviously, small tables for the kids to sit at and a cozy corner to sit at and read. So pretty much if your child cannot handle being very quiet and sitting reading quietly, they have no business being in this library.

Our downtown library has a just kids floor I think so that would be more lax I would guess.

Mambo5 Not every library is like that–in fact, I think the one you mention is probably the exception to the rule as opposed to the norm. To suggest other parents are “disgusting” who do otherwise are ridiculous is, itself, ridiculous.

LRH

If the original poster had run errands for a half hour and THEN moseyed in to collect her kid, I could understand a lot of the above posts.

Each library makes its own policies, or rather their board/director/trustees do.

Libraries that have a security officer on staff are going to be the ones that have security problems.

It’s certainly possible that the clerk or librarian you dealt with was a nutjob. The prevalence of homeless people using the library, the increased number of low-income people without summer child care, and unfortunately library public internet access have turned up the paranoia level of some public library staff.

Furthermore, the upsurge in child harm accusations has also turned up the paranoia level in some library staff. Everyone here has heard the stories about adults scared silly by the idea of being around a child without some sort of witness to protect the adult’s reputation.

There is, however, another possibility and it’s one we have to think of. Libraries, like other public areas, have periodic problems with sexual harrassment and other inappropriate behavior– such as viewing porn on public computers. If the police officer was *not* assigned to work at the library, it’s entirely possible he was there to investigate and/or remove a patron. Under those circumstances– ‘ pervert present in the library! ‘– the librarian or clerk might be especially wound up about an apparently unaccompanied minor, no matter how safe the child actually might have been.

As a general rule, though, the simplest way to respond to such paranoid outbursts is probably to say, “Oh! I’m sorry she scared you!” to the library staff. If you want to pursue it further, ask the director or the head of the children’s department at what age they would feel comfortable having a child in the children’s department while the adult was in another part of the building– specifying that you don’t want to scare them again.

Don’t feel guilty, though, since it sounds like it was all a misunderstanding.

Guess what Mambo5, homeless people pay taxes. When they buy things they pay sales tax, if they put gas in their cars (which some live in), they pay gasoline tax, and when they work (most homeless people work), they pay income/SS tax. Not to mention that when that homeless person had a home, they were paying even more taxes.

All people living in a community deserve to use public services. You do not have more rights to the library than someone who lives out of their car or on a bench in the park. Your hatred and fear does not change someone’s basic rights.

People go to the library to read (yep, homeless people too). If there is an issue in your community with people using the library for basic services it is because they can’t find them elsewhere (not because they are trying to gross you out). So either work to create those services or shut up. You are a fool if you think that banning homeless people from the places you want to spend time makes them go away.

I feel especially sorry for your children because they are learning bigotry from you. Instead of hating, why don’t you go up and start a conversation with a homeless person? Find out more about them. Or volunteer in a shelter or food kitchen. Your children would benefit from learning compassion. How many of us are one layoff away from losing our homes too? Most of the homeless people I’ve met, and I’ve known quite a few, never thought they’d be homeless.

To bring this conversation back to the point…those pre-school aged kids left in the library for hours at a time? Some of the parents might be neglectful but I bet you most of them do it out of desparation. They know it’s a bad idea but it’s better than losing their job (and their home, if they’re not homeless already).

I agree that librarians should not be day care providers and libraries shouldn’t allow tiny children to be alone all day. But the solution isn’t just banning the behavior, it’s working to find alternatives. Along with a healthy dose of compassion.

Mambo, repeat after me:

“There but for the grace of the angels, go I”

Mambo, the right to public services is not a privilege.

People use the public library, among other things, to find work. They use the library to get help writing resumes (and to print and copy them out), to search online for jobs, to find out about jobs fairs.

And they also go to learn to read (if they cannot), to study for their GEDs (if they haven’t graduated high school), to improve their English (if they’re non-native speakers, or, like you, simply never learned to spell), and to generally make themselves more employable.

And they ALSO go there to read books and magazines – things they have little disposable income to *buy*, to spend time with their children at special children’s programs (if they have kids), to attend workshops, seminars, and performances.

And yes, some of them go to libraries to stay warm/cool, use the bathroom, keep dry, and have some water from the fountain. It is unfortunate that they have so few options in that regard – but it’s not like they’re choosing to live a cushy life on the streets.

They pay the same taxes you do except, presumably, for property tax. They’re just not as lucky as you have been, and hopefully will continue to be. However, they are still human beings and still worthy of the standard amount of respect.

Blah blah blah. It IS a privilege to use public services. It IS unfortunate that lazy people and “free range” people get the lines confused. It IS fortunate that I am “lucky,” but that fortune comes with working hard not by drinking my life away on a free bench.

Sorry, it should be you’re welcome. Ugggh, hit enter before I could fix it.

Wait, Sky, is that *actually* true for your library, or is that “true” in the way that “it’s more dangerous than when we were growing up” is true?

Because if it’s ACTUALLY true for your specific library, there may be other ways to handle the situation, although they’re likely to come with their own sets of problems. At any rate, it’s not necessarily true that every library has that same exact problem.

Except Sky, I didn’t ask you to “keep an eye on my child” nor do I expect, want or desire you to babysit nor is any eye keeping needed. My child is perfectly capable of sitting alone in a library and reading books, doing puzzles or playing games without your eyes on her. Thanks anyway.

If you CHOOSE to keep an eye on my child for your own reasons, that’s on you. I can’t be blamed for you not getting your work done because you are spending your time keeping an eye on children who don’t need eyes kept on them.

I’m sorry but this idea that any child alone in a library requires librarian babysitting is ridiculous. Most of us went to the library alone at young ages. Have today’s children gotten so exceedingly stupid that sitting in a room reading a book now requires some kind of adult supervision? I’m not talking about kids who are misbehaving. Those kids were always a problem for librarians. I remember being shhh’d in the library occasionally as a child and I remember the occasional kid causing a problem. I’m talking about the average kid sitting in a library doing what one is meant to do in a library, which are the predominant group of kids that I see in my local library.

Well_ I could argue the point of children becoming dumber…but that’s a whole different discussion. Hahaha

Lisa, how many kids have gotten grabbed at your library in, say, the last 5 years?

Lisa, like it or not EVERYONE can use a public park. You don’t know if the man sitting on the bench next to your child is a pedophile. Like it or not EVERYONE can walk down a street. You don’t know if the person walking past your child is a pedophile. Like it or not EVERYONE can use a grocery store. You don’t know if the person ob aisle 4 is a pedophile. Under your theory, helicopter parenting is required because you just never know. There is nothing about the public library that makes it more likely to house pedophiles than the park, street or grocery store.

Ok, obviously you are all reading what I’m saying wrong. Yes, the guy in the park could be a pedophile, but I would NEVER leave my 4 year old in a park by himself. Would I sit on a bench nearby and let him play? Absolutely. The same is true in a store, or a library – the parent needs to be near and aware.

During the summer I use the library as my “office”. I go every day they are open and work on lesson plans, and research for a couple of hours. I like having access to all those books for ideas.

The place is jammed full of people 2/3 of them kids, most unaccompanied elementary – HS aged kids. They must really be irritating the librarians with all the shelving they are doing, cutting out of letters, decorating, and the preparing of materials for the little kids’ story time. They are just a pain in the behind to the librarians.

Oh and when they take their brown bags out to the lawn and eat – you wouldn’t believe it they leave the lawn cleaner than they found it – picking up the trash adults have left/dropped.

Last Saturday, I was taking in two bags of books I used for a project with my students. Some skateboard kids in ratty clothing stopped and insisted on carrying the bags in for me. Can you believe the nerve of them not living down to a stereotype.

If libraries want to be funded by the next generation – they better open their doors to them as kids. My library is fostering a generation of community volunteers with a fierce loyalty to the library. Oh and the librarians know most of the kids by name – and greet them with things like “Hi Angel, we just got in a book you will love ……”

Is there a buzz in my library – yes. It is a neighborhood library (not an academic library) with people from the neighborhood using the computers, reading books, and getting to know each other. It is a quiet buzz no yelling, if a small child has a tantrum or is crying the adult takes them out.

The neighbors look out for each other. The other day I heard “Thomas, I heard your Mamma tell you not to play that game. You get off that computer right now and apologize to the librarians – then we are going to call your Mamma and let her know what you are up to. I looked over and saw a very guilty looking kid 9 – 11 yo sheepishly getting off the computer. I have a feeling he is at least grounded for a while.”

I actually think kids are generally really safe at the library. Most of the creepy guys looking at porn are more interested in adult women and “shocking” the librarians. The only people I’ve ever seen harrassed and/or assaulted were staff members and the very rare adult patron. Most of the mentally ill/gang members/drunks/ and other malcontents could care less about children.

“The librarian in question had no idea that the mom was coming back in — all they saw was a 4 year old run in by himself. Yes, that would scare me, too.”

Lisa, you admit that you are not aware of one single grabbing or snatching in your library. So, what exactly are you scared of? Scared that a mother has decided for herself what her child is capable of and has given him twenty whole seconds of independence? Scared that a child is so excited to get to the library that he wants to go in and get started while Mom parks the car?

I’m really not taking you on. I’m encouraging you to think in a more free-range way and start trusting the world around you, and the parents within it, instead of being fearful of it.

I wanted to add too that even if your kids would do nothing dangerous or damaging or whatever- that makes NO real difference when you get down to it. The librarians don’t KNOW that. Unless they are familiar with your kid, to them every kid is just as likely to cause a potential problem. They should be polite and respectful to all kids, but if they feel they would be held responsible if anything should happen to said kid, then they are going to have to watch them.

I had to keep an eye on many kids that got dumped at the toy store while their parents shopped. Some were excellent kids that just looked around and were harmless. Others would knock stuff off shelves or damage products or run around or try to steal. I am not psychic and I had to watch all of them.

Dolly, here’s what I think. I think a children’s room in a library should be designed for children. That means it should be reasonably safe in case a kid does something you should expect a kid to do – whether or not he is being watched closely by a careful, intelligent parent. So for example, if a kid stood on a low shelf to reach a high book, the whole bookcase would not come crashing down on his head. And there would not be open windows the kid could fall out of. Sound reasonable? But normal everyday risks are to be expected regardless of where kids are. It’s on me as a parent to decide whether it’s safe to send them to the park, library, or corner store alone. Most parents would scope out the place first and get a feel for the safety factors. Seeing a bunch of apparently shiftless adults in the children’s section might affect a parent’s decision. How about giving parents the benefit of the doubt that they can think that far past their nose?

I also think that people who work in a children’s room – in the library or any other place – should be prepared to deal with kids doing the normal range of things that kids do – with or without their parents hovering over them. I really don’t want to hear a kids’ librarian whine about having to hear a kid make a noise or rearrange the books or toys that some kids mixed up. Makes me wonder if my kids’ daycare teachers whine about the fact that four-year-olds sometimes spill stuff or dawdle or have bathroom emergencies.

In my experience, the kids who are problematic and have good parents aren’t left on their own; but, they still cause problems even with their parents right there – as do kids with sucky parents. In fact, kids are often more unruly with their parents around. So you can’t tell me that a librarian needn’t bother about what the kids are doing if their parents are nearby. Therefore yes, it’s part of the job description – to be aware of what’s happening and be prepared to step in IF the patrons cross a line.

This also happens to be the case in most service jobs. If you are working in a retail store, restaurant, etc., that caters to kids, you simply have to watch out for them. If that slows you down a bit, oh well – it should be figured into the schedule.

For that matter, I probably shouldn’t have to stop my car when the kids on the corner run after a ball that’s gone into the street. It’s not in my job description and I don’t have time for that. I think I’ll go tell their parents that they are no longer allowed to play in the front yard – just in case.

Some of you act like misbehaved children are a 21st century invention. I don’t know what idealized memories you have of your childhood, but kids were not perfect angels when I was a child. Kids breaking things, stealing things, bullying each other, etc. have existed since kids and things have existed. Somehow every librarian and shop owner in every generation prior to this one somehow managed to handle this while welcoming child customers and still getting their jobs done.

“to them every kid is just as likely to cause a potential problem.”

And there we have the crux of the problem. People view kids as POTENTIAL PROBLEMS. Not as customers. Not as patrons. But as POTENTIAL PROBLEMS. Every last one of them. Do you view EVERY adult customer as a potential problem? Or do you let them do their shopping without saying that you are being forced to babysit your customers? Because I represent a whole helluva lot more adult shoplifters than I do child shoplifters. And if you view every child as a POTENTIAL PROBLEM then a toy store or library is probably not a good fit for you as a worker.

“I just have to say I am absolutely amazed after all these comments that only two people suspect it is a case of entitled parent syndrome and the librarian is not a nutcase ”

I disagree completely. For parent entitlement to kick in you would have to know that a child who is 20 seconds ahead of his parent is unattended; otherwise no rule is broken. The mother in this case didn’t purposely flaunt the rules. She interpreted “attended” as meaning that her coming in 20 seconds after him was sufficiently attended. Now, if we had facts to say that this particular mother had been told that allowing her 4 year old to enter the building without her is not okay and yet continued to do it, I would say parent entitlement and be on the side of the librarian (to a certain extent because I still think the rule would be absurd). Or if the mother didn’t immediately follow her child into the library. But, while either of those things could be true, we don’t know them to be true.

In the case of no shoes or food, it’s easy to determine parent entitlement syndrome. Shoes and food are clearly understood terms. “Attended” means different things to different people and, apparently, different libraries. Some here think it means “be directly supervising your child at all times.” Others think it means “be in the children’s section doing your own thing.” For others it’s “be in the library with your child and check in on him regularly.” Still others think it means “be in the library with your child and available to be tracked down if your child causes a problem.” Many believe that coming in 20 seconds after your child is not “unattended.” The librarian at issue apparently disagreed. But you still can’t intentionally flaunt the rule under parental entitlement if you don’t know what the rule means exactly.

As usual, I think Donna makes so much sense. I will admit, I have a tendency to think that bratty kids are a 21st century invention, and they’re not–although I do things parents by & large were much more prone to strong correction in prior generations than they are now.

As she says, people often-times view kids as potential problems, even before any evidence regarding THAT PARTICULAR KID has been produced which suggests this. It’s sort of analogous to how solitary men in the parks are often viewed & treated as potential molesters right from the jump-street. This is no different if you think about it. And I agree with Donna–if that is your point of view (that a kid is presumed to be a brat until they prove otherwise), maybe librarian isn’t the proper line of work for such a person.

The community Kimberly describes sounds great. I love the idea of another adult being able to create other’s children, especially if it’s done in a manner that serves to “backup” and reinforce the parent’s wishes, as opposed to compete with or undermine it. These people who scream “only I can discipline my kids” are really not doing their kids a favor. This much I can tell you: I have a rule that says anyone who brings their kids over to my house, I MUST have the ability to tell them to stay out of whatever and to be quiet etc, don’t tell me I can’t correct such behavior when it’s offending me in my own house. (On the other hand, how much or how little “free range” you give your child with outdoor play etc, that’s not my place–not even at my home, I’d say.)

LRH

I don’t think she purposely flaunted the rules, but I’m thinking that the librarian did know her and is sick of her son high-tailing it through the library at top speed with no mother in sight to correct him. The mother’s reply to the librarian wasn’t “Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t know the policy” or “I’m sorry, I misunderstood the policy” it was “”Thank you for your concern, but it builds his confidence to navigate a bit by himself.” In other words – I’m going to do whatever I want no matter the policy because I think Little Johhny’s confidence is more important than your policy. I still side with the librarian.

What LHR said about I feel that bratty children are more common now than they used to be. Many parents were not afraid to discipline back in the day. Now, (I worked in a daycare and so I know firsthand how we were allowed to discipline and saw how their parents disciplined) we act like we can’t ever say one negative word to our kids. At the daycare I worked at we were never allowed to say “No”. Ever. We had to use only positive words. We were not allowed to time out. So basically the kids knew they could get away with everything. This was a fancy expensive state of the art daycare. The parents were the same way and the kids ran all over most of them.

So I think that it might be more a current problem of kids being very ill behaved in public and everyone else having to deal with them.

Maybe it’s regional, but most of the kids around here behave reasonably. There are brats, but they are definitely in the minority. Or maybe I have a different idea of what is OK behavior for kids. I don’t expect them to sit silently with their hands crossed in their laps – especially when they are in a place supposedly designed to accommodate children.

BMS, I’ve become an expert at correcting my kids in a low, “sane-sounding” voice, LOL, and occasionally I threaten them with a consequence later and follow through, or let them work it off if appropriate. My kids are not perfect, but it’s pretty easy to cut off bad behavior if it starts. I think each parent needs to put a little thought into how to accomplish this without making a scene.

One idea I stole from a blog was to threaten an early bedtime. I was shocked at how well it worked. Other threats I like less but will use in a pinch: confiscating some of their candy stash or, rarely, an old-fashioned spanking.

That said, when my tots were too little to understand delayed consequences, I was not afraid to take away what they were enjoying, or even (rarely) walk them to an unpopulated corner and give them a spank. Once they know you actually WILL do that, they rarely push that far.

My sister told me of a friend whose mom used this method: when the mom held up 1 finger, it meant the kid was going to get 1 swat once home. If things didn’t improve sufficiently, eventually there would be 2 fingers => 2 swats, etc. No raised voices, no voiced threats, highly effective discipline. The key is following through, and I believe even young kids can learn if the parents actually mean what they say.

BMS – Why do you care what other moms expect? I discipline my child as I see fit. I’m not going to beat her in public (or private), but if a raised voice is necessary, it happens. We spend way too much time worrying about what other mothers think of out parenting.

I wanted to share a more hopeful story that started the same way. I often let my 2 older kids (ages 7 and 5) run into the library while I get the baby and the books out of the car. When I walked in 2 min behind them one day, the librarian said “were those your kids that came in a minute ago” and I of course thought Uh-oh. But I put on a brave face and said they were. She started to laugh and told me they had come and and paused and then one of them said (with a dramatic eye roll) “come on lets start looking, i don’t want to wait for mama, she’s *soooooo* slow”.

And that was it, the librarian thought it was hilarious.

To the point of how close is accompanying, I think it’s totally context based. In a pool I can respect an “arms reach rule” otherwise I consider my self to be supervising if my kids are within my senses. If I can see or hear them. Or if I can see the exit in a relatively small place (like a neighborhood library, but not the main one).

I do think about the grey area here sometimes thought when people say kids are outside “unsupervised” we have a lot across the street from our house that i can see out my kitchen window (as can my neighbor) where all the neighborhood kids play. I consider my kids basically supervised if they are in a group out there. But I actually only check on them every half hour or so. Does that qualify as unsupervised IDK?

And libraries with a 13 and older rule? That’s insanity. My local library is filled with elementary age kids, unsupervised after school. I mean what could be safer then hanging out at the bloody library?

It’s so true that we spend so much time worrying what others will think of our parenting, rather than considering what is best for our child and our family. Having a police officer come for something like this is just plain silly. SILLY! In our library, we have a related problem. THere is a sign in the children’s department that says “all adults must be accompanied by a child.” I saw it when I happened to be at the library alone and wanted to pick up a couple books for my daughter. But I felt like I needed to hustle out of there lest I be mistaken for a sex offender or something. Ick! Can’t we use common sense and still protect our kids?

Wow, there are two people named Frances on here!

Heather — fight your own battles. Not only does getting your husband to “explain in lawyerese” sound sexist, it makes you sound incompetent.

Rhodycat — thank you! Rules are rules. If you don’t like them, work to change them. Otherwise it’s a bit like ignoring the speed limit because you think it’s too slow — maybe it is, but you still deserve the ticket.

Mambo5 — the dregs of society? Really?

Police or security guards on site are not unusual in city libraries. That’s been well covered here.

Auty: the mom was 20 seconds (perhaps really a minute) behind the child until the front desk worker verbally assaulted the mom. Who knows how long that took. Then, she says, she went upstairs to find her son and the police officer must have already been there and was just having the boy sit and wait for her.

All I know is if the librarian pulled the same thing on me and had the cops show up, not only would there be a complaint letter to the library, but to the local detachment as well. I use a cane and can not run after my kids. They are often in the library 30 seconds to three minutes before I get there. At least now I have a small, local library where the kids can be in the kids’ section without me right there so I can go after books I’m interested in. This library is so small that is has only 5 rooms – two bathrooms, a conference room, the “deal with the books room” and the main room which is all library.

You, OP, did nothing wrong. The librarian pulling rank did. Complaint letter time.

o lord love a duck.
under 13?
Is that why the national literacy and reading comprehension stats are in the crapper?
Is this why kids view books as nasty wet slimy crawly things found under rocks?
whoo!
I was 5 years younger than this “curfew age” when I got my first unlimited checkout card…(sorta like winning the lottery, only much better) and all any librarian ever gave a damn about was that I did not stick used chewed gum under the tables, or make noisy disturbance with my equally young friends (though most visits were made solo.)

This sorta calls the old farts out, does it not? They’re admitting – that they don’t think the average kid can respond favorably to books or their depositories….until they’re old enough for high school.
For shame, librarians – for shame.
I’d like to haul about 47 kids off the street right now and have them haunt your sorry souls…….let you and the cops chase them all down, for actually giving a damn about real engagement with their own literacy.
(what a way to encourage reading, um?)

jp
that’s me – the shy librarian.