“Is My Son a Sex-Offender?”

For Oklahoma –
” §21‑1112. Age limitation on conviction for rape.
No person can be convicted of rape or rape by instrumentation on account of an act of sexual intercourse with anyone over the age of fourteen (14) years, with his or her consent, unless such person was over the age of eighteen (18) years at the time of such act.”

A 17 year old cannot be charged for being with a 15 yr old, in other words, by Oklahoma law.

I wonder if this is an empty threat on the part of the sheriff. Wikipedia claims there is a close-in-age exemption in Oklahoma — if he’s under 18 and she’s over 14. But laws get weird about oral sex sometimes and, if the sheriff really wanted to, it’s possible he could find *something* to hang a label on.

This is the biggest problem with the sex offender registries. They’ve given the state too much power to ruin people’s lives on a whim and allowed the state to pad their conviction stats by getting someone to plead down on crimes few juries would convict on.

I wonder if there are organizations in Oklahoma that might be willing to provide some free legal advice on the phone. There are usually organizations looking to reform sex offender laws and they should know them inside out.

Although I don’t thing “The Registry” is the answer for consequences – I am saddened that you seem to have primed your son to be a sexual preditor. If he went out to find a girl – and has the place of a vehicle – and the means of condems – and then intent to have sex with her – she is his prey. You said that sex was for adults who love each other. This doesn’t seem to be the situation here. Looking after young girls to have in the back seat of a car – seems preditor to me. If he was older – we’d be talking about the guy that pulls up and asks girls for a ride. It only makes it right because they are teens? I am almost 40 and still have baggage from the freedom of sexuality in my younger teens – from boys who just wanted the back seat experience – although I was married at 18 – and sex at 18 – those younger years were aweful – of the “almosts” and “just got caughts”. Read your story again – as the mother of a 14 or 15 year old girl, and wonder what type of mom would send her son out freely to behave this way.

I applaud you for having such an open relationship with your son! According to what KLY replied about Oklahoma law it seems like y’all will be ok, but it might not hurt to consult an attorney for some free advice (most will do free consultations).
My sons aren’t as old as your’s but I already see them being treated like they’re potential sexual predators. They’re ages 7 & 5 and because they like to hug friends (not all the the time, usually as a goodbye hug!) I’ve watched adults recoil and try to stop it. I worry for the future.
Good luck, it sounds like you’re a very good mom with a very good relationship with your son, and that is about as good as it can get.

Here in the UK the legal situation is odd. It has been the custom for sometime now for parliament to pass a law that embodies the “spirit” of what they wish to achieve and leave it up to the courts to interpret the actual letter in a meaningful way.

Thus we have the asinine situation where two underage persons hugging is technically illegal, but the Crown Prosecution Service has issued guidelines stating they don’t ever plan to charge anyone for committing such an offence.

Anyway, we do have a so-called “romeo and juliet” caveat, but even so, the woman I am about to marry is two years and two months younger than me, and we met when I had just turned 17, do the math 😉

It is interesting to see that since they are teens – it is all ok. My child is safe at the park at the age of 10 but not safe in a car at the age of 15. I am awake enough to know what teens have the desire to do – I think I stated in my comment that I know far too well. I do not think a child is primed for sex by the distribution of a condum – but that a mother would expect his son to conduct himself this way, expect hsi son to have protection, and assume that her son is having sex with a 15 year old – and have it be a “good thing”. The idea that Teens Do What Teens Do – seems to be a part of the Free Range movement that I would do without. Training, Character, Protecting that young girl – with more than a piece of latex – would be what I would expect my son to be trained to do as he grows into manhood. Not to conquer every girl that climbs into the back seat.

I am a criminal defense attorney and I weigh in, although I do not practice in Oklahoma and no little about its laws.

First, don’t trust wikipedia for your legal research. While it does appear that 1st degree rape cannot be charged unless the boy is 18 and the girl is under 14, there is 2nd degree stat rape that may encompass your son’s behavior. Child molestation, indecent acts with a child, etc. all may also apply (although I don’t know for sure since, again, I don’t know OK law).

It doesn’t appear that the police want to pursue anything so hopefully this will all die down. If not,

(1) Your son should absolutely, positively NOT talk to the police. If they want to talk to him, no matter how informally or how nice they are being, the ONLY thing your son should say is “I want a lawyer” and keep repeating that without answering a single question. Too many of our stat rape clients end up in trouble because they admitted to the sex in a case that would have gone away because the girl’s (or her parents’) allegations couldn’t be confirmed otherwise (pregnancy, emails, etc).

(2) If your son is still talking to this girl, make sure she knows that he could be in legal trouble. You don’t want to influence her statement or ask her not to talk to the police but there is nothing wrong with making sure she knows the problem. Hopefully, she will be smart enough to keep her mouth shut if the police ask her questions.

There is no need to hire a lawyer unless the case proceeds further than the mother being mad. If you want to just get information, most lawyers will give an initial consultation for free so you can talk to them in general. You definitely would want someone who specializes in criminal law. You can talk to several different lawyers.

As far as finding someone – Remember any idiot who graduated from law school can hang out a shingle. You want a decent attorney. Do you have a local public defender (an actual branch of the government and not just appointed attorneys)? If so, call them and ask for recommendations. I’m a public defender and we have certain attorneys who we know will do a good job to whom we refer people who do not qualify for us. Ask around your friends, family and associates. See what names appear in the local paper associated with criminal investigations, particularly with good outcomes. In a pinch, just talk to several and get various answers.

Pebblekeeper, unless this girl was pressured into having sex, which does not sound like the case, it’s not really a predator situation.

Giving your child condoms (and we don’t know WHOSE condoms they are, nor how they were obtained!) is not “priming them to be a predator”, it’s teaching them to take responsibility for their actions.

The Sex Offender Registry is supposed to be those convicted of multiple crimes or of severe crimes, not of teenage indiscretions. Unfortunately, kids who are sexting have been put on the registry.

Lawyer up. Just to cover your son’s ass. If mommy dearest decides to press the issue, you could be in for a long one.

At least you could always counter sue.

Predator? Really? How insane! This wasn’t a boy who was riding around town looking a girl to screw whether she wanted to or not. His “prey” was a schoolmate a mere 2 years younger (possibly only a grade difference depending in birthdays) who he had been dating for a few weeks. There was no indication that said girl was not 100% willing or that he asserted any kind of pressure. I’m not in favor of 15 year olds having sex as a general rule, but if that constitutes a “predator” in your opinion, you have some serious sexual hang-ups.

These sex offender registries do more harm than good, as far as I’m concerned.

Sure, they might alert you to a dangerous sexual predator in your area. More often than not, though, they serve to ruin the lives of men who made a mistake when they were younger.

Offenders who are convicted based on age of consent violations should be placed on a separate registry. If one of them is dating your daughter/son, you’ll know it’s probably a good idea to have “the talk” with her/him. If one of them is living in your neighbourhood, you don’t have much to worry about.

This is just outrageous to me. A 17 year old spending time, even intimately, with a 15 year old, could be construed as sex-offender registry material? Get out of here, that attitude is horse manure. It seems that, apparently, the laws DON’T interpret it that way, as well they shouldn’t.

Now, to be clear, I am one that thinks people should wait until they’re married before any sexual intercourse occurs, not just because of the possibility of pregnancy & disease etc, but because long-term it harms you because you give away “pieces of yourself” to such persons you don’t fully give back. I fully believe that if you wait until you’re married to have sex, then it’s easier because you don’t have memories of past “conquests” or experiences etc that you keep having to put out of your mind and by which you judge your current mate if they come up lacking in anyway.

But, that said, a sex offender registry response to a 17 year old male & a 15 year old female is nuts. 24 & 16 is one thing, or even 23 and 17, but 17 & 15? That is just ridiculous.

This whole nonsense “cheapens the term” of REAL sex offenders–40 year old men making propositions to 14 year olds, the dirty uncles fondling their nieces etc. Just as calling harmless flirting “sexual harassment” waters down a term which should be reserved for REAL harassment, and calling it “rape” just because a woman later on regrets what she did cheapens the term for a woman who was drugged or physically restrained while the man forced himself on her as she screams for him to stop, so it is here. In like manner, calling a 17 year-old male with a very-willing only 2 years his junior 15 year old female a “sex offender” is just ridiculous.

LRH

“24 & 16 is one thing, or even 23 and 17”

Both of which are perfectly legal in most states, including Oklahoma.

In addition, even though I am against pre-marital sex, I am very much for “Romeo and Juliet clauses” due to the extremely harsh treatment that teens who don’t know better could get without them.

Just to second another post because it is so important do not let your son talk to the police without a lawyer without exception. Nothing good can come with this and all he can do is give statements that hurt him. I would suggest consulting with criminal attorneys right now that way you have an idea what to expect in your local area and can find one that you are comfortable with if the worst happens and your son is charged instead of rushing around when you have other things on your mind and not thinking as clearly most will give you a free consult and than tell you to call them when they are needed but by doing this first they already have a heads up.

Why hasn’t anyone suggested that the son go over to the girls house, ring the doorbell, and apologize to the mother face to face?

That is what I suggest.

Her emotions are high, and she probably has a visual of the boy being some asshole. If she goes over and sees that he is a sweet young guy that didn’t know what he was doing, she will probably calm herself down.

It seems like this mother has narcissistic tendencies. She calls her daughter a whore, she wants to put a 17 year old boy in jail. Like all narcissists, she needs her ego stroked.

If he goes over there alone, tail between his legs, showing his respect towards the mother, I’m sure it will all be fine.

I don’t agree with “Anthony.” If the mom is that adversarial with her own daughter, she’s just as likely to dial “911” than forgive the kid.

I have an acquaintance whose daughter told her mom that the oral sex was “forced” and non-consensual in order to get herself out of trouble (she’d invited the boy over when parents were not home). In the end, it turned out that she was lying, but in the meanwhile, charges WERE pressed against the boy (similar ages in that case). Yes, they were later dropped, but in the meanwhile, his reputation was ruined, his parents had to go into debt to afford the lawyer, etc.

I really, really hope that your son understands that having oral sex after just a few weeks of knowing a girl is taking things WAY too far, especially at their age. It seems, in spite of your training about responsibility, that he is still being guided by libido rather than common sense. This isn’t said to negate what teaching you’ve done with him. My daughter is nearly 16, and had a class at her school called “Love, Choices, and Commitments” which really emphasized that ALL sex acts have consequences (including the transmission of herpes viruses, some of which cause cervical cancer down the road). One day, among a group of friends, she was saying something to the effect of “there aren’t any boys who would be willing to wait,” and a 16 year-old boy said, quietly, “I would”. He is her boyfriend and has been for a few months now. Have they kissed? Sure! But they both know that, at this age, their primary “job” and focus is school, and they seem pretty aware that anything more than holding hands, and some kissing, comes with consequences that they are in no way ready for.

In the OP’s case, I sure hope it blows over and that the mom doesn’t decide to do something crazy, or that the girl doesn’t say something (like my friend’s daughter did) hoping to keep herself out of trouble.

And I sure hope the OP’s son has learned a lesson. MAYBE 17 is old enough to understand consequences. A 15-year-old girl may well be a willing participant in the fun and games, but there is always a balance of power on the older person’s side — she may be “consenting” because she wants the attention, or because she’s flattered that an older boy “wants” her. But, I’m sorry, 15 years old is NOT old enough to know what she is doing and I really, really hope the boy understands that. And understands that oral sex, or any sort of sex involving a condom, should be coming in the context of a caring, committed relationship, not just someone he’s been dating for a “few weeks” and that he is keeping secret from a mom who he has an open, communicative relationship with.

I would like to weigh in on this from several angles. I am the Executive Director of a company focusing on the treatment of those impacted by sexual abuse. I have worked for the last ten years with adolescent and pre-adolescent victims and offenders. There is a lot going on here…

1) The young man and young lady are NOT predators in any sense of the word. The behaviors here are normal for their experience and age. Granted the area of choice for sexual behavior is not the safest or perhaps most romantic, but thinking back onto the sexual development of most persons I know, most people have had youthful indiscretions with no large impact to their adult life. Look also at the societal pressure variance between young men sowing oats and young ladies supposing to stow their oats. It does seem that we are sliding into Victorian Era thinking when women cannot possibly be sexually active without pressure, it does make a statement of sexual inequality, whereas the true balance of any sexual relationship should be to establish that both partners are equal players with responsibility. The young girl is being taught here that she has no responsibility from the choices she made. Predators as many cited here are persons with a compulsion to engage in sexual activity. The motivation to commit sexual acts is rooted in many different reasons. Sex is the vehicle, rather than the destination. Additionally, a lot of comments driving the abstinence agenda should be given with perspective. Abstinence is a choice, not the only choice. One commenter stated that the young man is selfish. This is an example of this imbalance. It always goes without saying that the mother calling her daughter a slut has far more repercussions than getting caught in the car. This could give her a negative self-identity where sex is automatically seen as evil or dirty.

2) Registries are ineffective. Period. The idea behind them is sound, but the way he overuse them in the United States is counter productive. We actually have used registries for the better part of the 20th Century. There is a wonderful book by a man named Phillip Jenkins called “Moral Panic” which describes this issue in great detail. Registries as one person posted are for use to track aggressive and repeat offenders. Having worked with over 500 young men, I have many experiences where the gentlemen had one or two experiences of sexually problematic behaviors and moved on to successful lives. There were of course some gentlemen who did not. The idea that this young man is predatory is simply not there from what was described. The typical treatment goal is to address sexuality and teach responsible attitudes and choices, not fear monger someone into thinking sex is bad. Sex in itself is part of our growth and maturing process. We always taught our staff to not allow their own mores to influence the decisions of the clients we served. People get so nervous about sex, and make the assumptions somewhere that if a person commits an act of sex, they have to have some kind of defect that is incurable.

3) I do agree with the recommendation that if the angry mother brings some sort of a sanction of charges to have a lawyer present before the young man talks to the police. Many counties are looking to make examples and pressure confessions again trying to shock others into better choices. This never works. The worst case is that both of these young people will be more impacted by the overreaction to this situation, which will tarnish their view of sex, rather than allowing for better choice options. True scientific studies show no correlation between early sexual activity and later disturbance. Most studies citing the opposite are tied to a moral agenda. There is no perfect solution to teaching sex. All the lessons can be taught, but sexual interest is part mental, part physical.

In general, the efforts most people put into keeping children safe actually tie up the system. This situation is a perfect example of how resources focused on these two persons would take focus away from people who are truthfully dangerous. The sad problem is that there will always be people who commit sexually harmful behaviors against others. Our solution should be helping educate people on healthy sexual choices with responsible sanctions that are germane to the situation rather than one size fits all imposed “we’ll show you” reactions. This young man and woman would benefit far more from a talk about better choices on where and when rather than a court visit. Parking at the spot has been a symbol of our culture since cars were invented (yes even back then). Lets make rational reactions in an effort to teach young people to make better reactions and choices. It rarely comes up to examine the way that we handle these situations to see the potential fallout of this onto the way young people think. This is another unseen form of sexual education.

My wish is for all involved to come away with some perspective and no long term ill effects.

Scared Mom: My parents both told me about sex over time and age appropriately as you have done, as I was growing up. At fifteen my father added that although sex was a beautiful way to express feelings for someone and that during my teen years I would have lots of serious crushes, he suggested that anything beyond kissing and petting with clothes on could be emotionally confusing. He encouraged me to wait until I was at least 18 before going any further. He also added that the boys will actually appreciate my limits because they get scared and confused too by the emotions resulting from early sexual intercourse. And he gave me some helpful things to say to pushy boys that weren’t offensive but clearly set my limits. I remember one boy at 16 saying, “I am glad you stopped us. I am feeling pressure from friends to “go all the way”, but I am not ready yet either.”

For seeking help with your situation, I would suggest two things. One would be seeking a free legal clinic if there is one in your town. The other would be to approach the Religious Education Director or Minister of your church. I grew up Unitarian and our church is more open than most in dealing with teenage issues realistically and educationally. Suggest a workshop for parents of teens and a second one for teens, age 12-18 to provide helpful sex and legal education. Also, because there are usually a larger than normal number of professionals who are part of the Unitarian Church, there may even be an attorney who has this specialty. And keep taking slow, deep breaths. This will pass.

@Taylor Meacham: Hello. I was a slut. Back in the 1980s and 1990s (gasp, clutch pearls, slide onto fainting couch) I had sex with guys. Some I had just had 1-2 dates with. Some I had known for years. Guess what? I liked (and still do) sex. Do I regret the multiple partners? Only 1 of them (for reasons beyond the sex). The others were kind, considerate, we both enjoyed the sex, and we were normal, healthy teens (and all graduated from high school, most graduated from college). And, I have been monogamous and married for many years now. So, no longer a “slut” in those terms…although, occasionally, in the original version of the word, I still qualify.

Humans are programmed to enjoy sex. Is it “normal and healthy” for a 15 year old girl to have multiple sex partners? We don’t know anymore. We have regulated sex out of all normal existence. But we also don’t know if this girl HAS had multiple sex partners, or if this young man is her first. Are you horrified that they performed oral sex on each other? Are you horrified that the young man, with all his hormones raging, had the thought and consideration for his partner to be putting on a condom? How abnormal for a young man to be that in control of himself at that time.

However, your implication that a “slut” is a person who will grow up into something horrible is reprehensible. You can try to regulate the age that humans will begin to have sex, but you won’t succeed. How about encouraging adequate sex education, access to birth control, and lack of shaming instead?

Also I like to add I get SICK and tired of parents who have to blame everything on someone else-never on themselves or their kid. It drives me bonkers. So she does not want to take responsibility that she as the parent allowed her daughter to go out with this boy or even if she didn’t know she was going out with him, she allowed her daughter out unsupervised so at the end of the day- her responsibility.

Then she puts no blame on her daughter for dating an older boy or willingly having oral sex with an older boy. It is ALL the older boy’s fault. I call bull!

Her daughter is just at fault here.

Dolly, it MAY be a crime, depending on where you live. I agree that when two people are close in age, and there’s no coercion, the laws for statutory rape should be lifted, as in “Romeo and Juliet” clauses, but that’s not the case everywhere for every sex act.

“The motivation to commit sexual acts is rooted in many different reasons. Sex is the vehicle, rather than the destination.”

Possible guesses about the life-sustaining values motivating each person’s behaviour and strategies in this situation (with a caveat to remember that you don’t have to condone the behaviours or agree with the strategies to see and value the motivation underneath them. If you can do this, you can move away from punitive force and move forward compassionately and constructively toward a positive solution that works for everyone):

Policeman: competence, contribution, responsibility, safety, security, health, well-being, to be heard, to be seen, to matter, meaning, purpose, sustainability.

15-year-old-girl: pleasure, fun, connection, learning, growth, to be seen, to matter, to belong, autonomy, choice, sexual expression, love, closeness, excitement, intimacy, privacy.

17-year-old-boy: pleasure, fun, connection, learning, growth, health, well-being, autonomy, choice, to belong, to matter, sexual expression, love, closeness, excitement, intimacy, responsibility.

Mother of 15-year-old-girl: peace, harmony, responsibility, contribution, influence / power, safety, health, well-being, to be heard, integrity.

Mother of 17-year-old boy: safety, well-being, compassion, empathy, health, peace, security, sustainability, love, connection.

Here is what I have come to understand as my own truth: There isn’t one thing any human being says or does that isn’t motivated by something universally valued by all human beings, and the use of punitive force (which would include everything from verbal threats and vehicle impoundment to registries of sex offenders, jail time, fines, and having a “criminal record”—among many other things) is a tragically ineffective way to try to bring about safety or peace.

Ultimately, our human experience is an opportunity to develop compassion, and yet human society seems to be desperately fixed on fear-based behaviour modification and extrinsic rewards. As my 10-year-old would say, “Epic fail.”

Namaste (The highest in me beholds the highest in you)

Taylor: I lost my virginity a month shy of 16 so I was 15. Guess what? I have never been close to being considered a slut by most standards. I only had sex in monogamous serious relationships. I ended up marrying a virgin and we are happily married for 6 years now and were happily monogamous for a total of 3 years before marriage. So about 9 years together now totally monogamous. So no, not all 15 year olds having sex turn out to be total sluts for the rest of their lives.

Was it a little young to be having sex? Yes. I wish I had saved myself for my husband. But, it did not damage me for life. Probably because I knew I wanted to have sex. I was not pressured. I never let men make me do anything I don’t want to do. Every time I had sex I knew what I was getting into. Heck I lost my virginity to an 18 year old so even worse than this situation. But no crime was committed.

“… now that we KNOW we are surrounded by “sexual predators.”

Funny, but I don’t know any such thing.

PLEASE WATCH THIS FILM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

It is a video by a lawyer who tells you EXACTLY why you should NEVER talk to the police- ESPECIALLY if you are innocent. As soon as my kids are 14 I am going to have them watch this film because I think it is AS important as sex education.

It makes me sick how it’s always the male gender that gets the blame for being the leader and pushing the girl into sex. Believe it or not, all you prudes out there – women like sex too!

I lost my virginity at the age of seventeen at within the space of about four months, I had sexual relations with five different men, classifying me, I suppose, as a “slut”. I regret having had those sexual relationships, but ONLY because I wish I had lost my virginity to my now common law husband of nine years, not because any of them pressured me into sex. I was an equally willing partner.

It disgusts me to hear so many people condemn teenage boys because they have a sex drive, but of course the innocent little flower child that he’s sleeping with must not have wanted it in the least. I’m not downplaying the fact that there are boys that DO take advantage of girls sexually. However, I would bet that many cases where teenage girls have accused a boy of taking advantage of her were just embellishment- her way of digging herself out of a hole with her parents etc etc, and that she was a willing partner until she was found out.

Most teenage boys are NOT inherently bad, they’re good kids that get caught up in the atmosphere of distrust concering the male gender.

I have two boys of my own, one is two and one is seven months, and I WILL be educating my boys about all aspects of sex; STD’s, pregnancy, the emotional and legal aspects, because I expect teenagers to be engaging in this behaviour.

Is it a wise decision? Probably not. So let’s all do our part to educate the children, when they reach they age where many will inevitably have intercourse, they will do so as safely as possible. Why do all adults seem to surpass the age of twenty five and forget how they behaved as teenagers?

Dear Scared Mom. this is the very reason I got out of law enforecment and helping prosecutors prosecute innocnet young men. I adimantly advise you to advise your son that he is NOT allowed to speak to the police or the girl or her mother without the presence of a lawyer, advise him not to speak about it to anyone without the advise of an attorney,. advise him that he has done nothing wrong except in the eyes of our extremely whacked out legal system,. In most states, from what you described here, your son can indeed be charged with a sex crime AND go to jail AND become a lifeteime registered sex offender. I am sorry, but that is the realilty of the situtaion.
Since the mother has already made the threat and seems to wish legal actoin be taken, I’d would most definately find your son a lawyer,, get their advise, and only proceed if anything comes of it from the other party. This way you have an informed attorney, that has all the information from your son’s side, and who can act quickly if needed. But be prepared to spend some bucks for said attorney, even if this never goes to court.

Imma post again to second something easily missed in this torrent of verbiage:

DO NOT LET YOUR SON TALK TO THE POLICE WITHOUT A LAWYER PRESENT

With that said, I would do research into lawyers and have one in mind, make use of free consults etc., but wait and see before forking out any money.

As to young girls and sexual predation, and the comments made by Taylor Meacham and pebblekeeper, some interesting issues are raised. As mammals, we’ve got some very potent low-level programming for certain sexual behaviours which kick in as soon as, or possibly even before, we are physically capable of enacting those behaviours.

Young men are driven to spread their seed far and wide, young women are driven to seek find the highest quality genetic material they can and then carry that child to term. These behaviours may be useful for an individual’s genes, but they are not helpful for that individual, nor for civilised society as a whole.

I write this because Taylor Meacham and pebblekeeper need to understand that what those kids were getting up to in that car is the default structure. No one was preying on anyone else, this is what their genes, hormones and natural impulses were compelling them to do.

ScaredMom has clearly gone to great lengths to equip her son to understand his natural impulses and to have the will and knowledge to know how to discharge them in a minimally harmful way, in the context of her and her son’s shared moral code.

I have no right to criticise the aims of another’s parenting, but it is reasonable for me to raise objections if another’s methods are not achieving their stated goals. If you object to the girl’s behaviour (and I, personally, would be uncomfortable were that my daughter) it is her parents you must blame for failing to impart to her the “correct” moral code, or the knowledge and will to exercise it.

If you believe that a girl of fifteen is unable to properly consent to sexual activity, then why allow her to go out unaccompanied in a country where the legal system believes they can? You cannot reasonably expect the whole world to help you uphold your own moral code.

After all it takes the proverbial two to tango.

If we do not educate girls on birth control and disease prevention…if we do not expound that a desire for sex is normal, natural and healthy yet comes with huge responsibilities…if we instill them with fear and terror that if they are “caught” having sex they will be punished by parents and “branded” as a slut forever, etc etc….then what is going to happen? Either they get pregnant or a disease because they didn’t have information. OR, as illustrated by this story, if they are caught in a sexual situation, out of fear and terror and ignorance, they will lie, say they were forced and potentially ruin someone else’s life. OR BOTH.

It is truly sad and disgusting that teens must not only deal now with the usual physical and emotional consequences of sex, but now legal and criminal ones too?! It’s terrifying…

Sconzey, your statement about what men and women are biologically driven to do is based upon… what, exactly?

Uly, those observations, though simplified somewhat, are actually in step with evolutionary biology. Recent studies have not only upheld the past theories that women are programmed, on a very basic level, to seek out properly compatible genetics, but have revealed that they also share more of the same drives for diversity that has been found in studies of males than was shown before.

@sconzey – I know it’s tough to keep up with the “torrent of verbiage”, but in the future if you want to single me out, I ask that you take the time to read what I have written. Is there anything I said that seemed to contradict your “default structure”. My point (again, for maybe the 3rd time now) is that for humans the “default” is not the golden rule of behavior. Since we’re referencing higher primates as guides for default human behaviors, let’s deal with murder, something observed in chimps and bonobos. Does that make murder in certain circumstances a default? Sure. Does that excuse murder or make it “healthy”? I know, it’s an absurd question. But so many of the replies here are that sex is “natural” (i.e. a default behavior) and therefore its fine as long as kids use condoms. The argument holds no water. Default behaviors are far too frequently terrible guides for humans in modern society.

Sometimes it feels like no one else remembers the ending to “Romeo and Juliet.” The play isn’t a “rom-com.” Romeo and Juliet both kill themselves. Perhaps, just perhaps, 14-year-olds being a little teeny bit immature for the ramifications of sex isn’t entirely “a very new one.”

@Taylor Meacham: I definitely think we’re crossing wires as I very explicitly said that the “default structure” — while very good for genes — is not very good for the individuals, or for society.

It’s the parents’ duty therefore to teach their youngsters how to control their sexuality — at the very least — in their interests. When those two youngsters “got up to no good” in the car, we know at least the boy was making a rational reasoned decision in accordance to him and his mother’s moral code. You may or may not agree with that code, but it seems unfair to blame the boy for allowing the girl to violate her mother’s moral code — as I read you to be implying.

That’s a fair point about R&J though 😛

tbere is a wonderful document about teenage sex and the law here: http://www.crimevictimsinstitute.org/documents/Adolescent_Behavior_3.1.11.pdf

It is very current Mar 2011 and I would give it a good read and if you still think you need legal advice I would get it. From what I could discern from the publication they could press charges, but it would only be a misdemeanor and no one would be placed on the sex offender lists.

@sconzey – Sorry I missed that in your comment. I’m grateful for another voice of reason on the issue of default responses as guides for behavior.

As for your last point, I may have implied that, but not intentionally. I would characterize the situation a bit differently: rather than “allowing” the girl to violate her mother’s moral code (or the seemingly less-than-angelic bit we’ve seen of it) I would say the boy “helped” the girl to violate her mother’s moral code. (Although who knows what he really knew about the girl’s mother.) If he knew how the mother would react, is it unfair to blame him for helping the girl get her mom so mad? I’m not sure. Would it have made his actions truly stupid? Yes. If the mom yells and screams at the police until they bring some kind of charges against him, the fact (supposing for the moment it is a fact) that it is unfair won’t be a great consolation to anyone.

Subverting the moral positions of a minor’s parent(s) is a risky undertaking, as I’m sure all teenagers know.

Everyone keeps saying that teenaged girls are able to decide if they want to have sex and that they are willing participants but I feel it must be said that this is not always the case. I was a young teen (almost 14) who was told by may parents that I was not to date until I was 16, period. This ignored the fact that I was interested in boys, NOT for sex but for silly little girl puppy love and romantic moments akin to a Disney Movie. This lead to sneaking around where I met a boy who was 17. He wooed me, sang love songs, treated me like a princess. Then he brought me to his home where no one was home and we had sex. I did not say no but I was terrified, and I did not say yes either, he did not ask, I know he did not care. Turns out later that he and his friends had a bet to see how many young girls they could sleep with and a year later in high school him and his friends teased many girls who had made their conquest list. After my first time I no longer felt worthy, and I had sex with my next boyfriend as well, and each boyfriend after that, often without knowing them for nearly long enough but when you are a young teen you feel in love in a week and sex makes you feel even more in love. It was never really something I wanted or enjoyed but I really felt like it was all boys cared about, it was required of me and it was what all teens did, I was not forced and a few times I was the initiator. I had good parents but they refused to see me as growing up and did not teach me about sex (school did that). I guess you could say old fashioned and prudish:)

There are so many boys out there who follow their hormones and I also believe so many girls out there who just do what the boys want so the boys will like them. People need to understand that as educated as this boy was and some girls are, there are just as many who are not, and young teens are NOT mature enough to really understand what sex is, the consequences and the feeling that occur because of it. Does this boy know that the girl was 100% emotionally OK and ready for sex, was he or was it a hormonal thing. Was she just trying to get him to like her, having self esteem issues that make her make poor choices. That is a main issue for me, how do you know if she is OK with it really? I am not saying he should be considered a predator at all, just that he really has no way of knowing if she was emotionally ready, even if she says she is, so the best thing would be for him to wait until he has known her for MUCH longer than a few weeks, until they have dated, met each others parents, fallen in actual LOVE with each other with their clothes ON:)

I find this thing so scary because I am now a mother of 3 girls and a boy, and in a good marriage but struggle with how to talk to my own kids about sex when my own parents couldn’t even tell me the real name of genitals, in fact I didn’t even know I had a vagina, what it was until sex ed! I look back on my teen years and know that most of my first sexual experiences I regret hugely. I wish I had been older at least, married would have been the best but in reality, older, more mature, in real relationships (not a few weeks), in real LOVE. The implications of sex are HUGE, and way more than any young teen can really comprehend (STD’s, babies, emotions, attachment to someone, heart break).

Any suggestions for how to begin the sex talks with my kids would be helpful, they are 8, 6, and 1. we use proper body part names, and my kids know babies come from the vagina, but they don’t know how they get in there!

I agree that it’s not *always* the case that girls are capable of deciding whether or not they’re ready, but I think it often is. I take exception to the image of teenage girls as easily manipulated, naive creatures who must be defended by society and the law from the slobbering, uncontrollable teenage boy. That archetype does a grave disservice to both genders, teaching boys that society expects them to “think with their small heads” and denying the very real desires of girls.

I’m sorry your first experiences with sex were not good ones. But do you really believe that they were criminal matters?

My cousin’s son was put on the registry in our state because he was 17 and his gf was 15 when her mother turned him in for stat rape. It’s difficult to figure out on our registry that it was a bf/gf incident instead of something horrible. I agree with the lawyer who said if the police do try to talk to him (or the girls’ mother calls – because she could be taping the call) he should never admit to anything and ask for a lawyer who can help him phrase what happened better.

I would suggest that you include any future girlfriends or dates in your conversations with your son about sex and responsibilities. Let them both know the physical (STD, pregnancy), emotional, and legal ramifications of both intercourse and oral sex.

One of my close friends has two sons (who are now in college) and she said she and her husband sat the boys and their dates down and explained their expectations of their behavior.

They told the girls they have every right to say “no”, “not yet” or something similar if they felt uncomfortable. Then (in front of the girl) told their sons they that if the girl said anything or acted uncomfortable they were to stop what they were doing IMMEDIATELY. And, they told them the opposite was true too – that the girl needs to stop if what she’s doing make him uncomfortable.

Her boys said it was uncomfortable to begin with, but that they and their gfs ended up liking the openness and the “permission” to say “not yet.”

Good luck!

As a former public defender, I echo the thought that neither you or your son should talk to the police. The laws are horrendous and do not protect anyone because, as you pointed out, we have no way to know who is truly dangerous.

I thought I was ready for having babies. You know, emotionally ready. Really ready. I wasn’t 16, I was twice that age. And sex didn’t work, so we adopted a child. Let me tell you, adopting a child is not something that you do on impulse one night in the back of a car because you’re drunk and it feels good. It’s like getting a master’s degree while undergoing Freudian analysis. And it’s just as expensive, too.

Anyway, so the baby comes. (Well, actually, we go and get him.) And nothing, let me tell you NOTHING could have prepared me, really, for what was to come. Was I emotionally ready for caring for that six-month-old infant? Hell no! I had all the stuff, I had read all the books, but when it came down to it, I was a mess, and he paid the price.

He’s ten, so he’s survived me pretty well so far, and I have more kids now. I did a little better with those, i think, because there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE.

Let me say that again: there just isn’t a substitute for experience. So even if you think you are ready, even if you have read all the books, even if you have talked to your friends, researched things on the internet, watched through a keyhole and thought you were an expert, you don’t know sh•t until you’ve done it yourself.

That’s the real piss-off of the human experience. I wanted to skip over that messy principle of learning through experience, I wanted to skip a lot of “stupid” things I saw my buddies doing when I was in high school and college. I wasn’t attracted to losing consciousness or vomiting or having flu-like symptoms, so I just “skipped over” drinking excessive amounts of alcohol or doing drugs. In fact, I hardly ever drank at all. I guess because I didn’t want it, I didn’t have to go there. With sex, though, well, that was different!

I thought I knew everything about marriage because I’d watched everyone else’s “mistakes,” and oh boy, I was going to get that one right for sure. Well, my marriage lasted 13 years and then it was done. I guess I didn’t really know how to pick a partner when I was 22. But I didn’t do anything that legions of other human beings haven’t done, which is to make your best guess and LIVE.

Okay, calm down, I know there are serious consequences to things like drunk driving and doing hard drugs, and the laws are designed to save us from ourselves. Wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle, the law says. Buckle your seat belt. You’re going to cost society too much if you end up with a head injury or killing someone. Laws against teen sex are attempting the same thing: to save us from ourselves, to save society from the fallout and grief of kids having kids of their own to raise.

What some have failed to mention about the human evolutionary programming stuff, though, is the context in which human society and biology evolved. In a tribe, if a 14-or-15-year-old bears an infant, she’s not on her own raising it. I’m not saying that the daddy hung around. In fact, the male is a minor player; he’s out hunting for meat, and the ladies are huddled together, intergenerationally, babies strapped on backs, lots of support and community, interdependence and shared experience.

Does it seem so utterly bizarre that a cat gets pregnant and has kittens when it becomes sexually mature? Not really. Do we exclaim about how wrong it is, imagine that it would have been better if the cat had waited to have sex until it was prepared for the consequences? For heaven’s sake, we humans used to procreate when we reached sexual maturity too—because we could, because we suddenly wanted to, it was easier on our bodies, and because we had a pretty great support system in which to raise up those new humans.

Our current society, while perhaps more “civilized,” seems utterly counter-indicated by our biology and basic human needs. Even though I waited until I was 32 and married to start “having” kids, the isolation of the middle-class, North American way of life, raising kids in the 21st century, nearly killed me. What about community, interdependence, support, empathy, shared reality, connection? Nah, you’re supposed to make it all happen by yourself in your 3-bed, 2-bath rancher with your husband. Bah.

My guess is that within the next decade or two, we’ll look back at the histrionics of this period and shake our heads about what got us all fussed, because we’re going to have some REAL problems on our hands.

@Uly: Not quite a scientific study, but here’s economist Robin Hanson reviewing “Sex at Dawn” which is a book on the subject, and references many other studies.

Where “Sex at Dawn” and I disagree is that the author seems to imply “this is the natural state of humanity, therefore it’s good,” which I don’t think is true. The freedom and the responsibility of having higher reasoning faculties is understanding and rationally deciding when to indulge our primal urges, and when to suppress them.

I’ll be honest: I’m not very au fait with much of the science behind it, but the Game/evbio explanation of human sexuality sits better with the behaviour I experience and witness amongst my friends: men high-fiving and congratulating eachother on each additional “notch,” women in otherwise happy and loving relationships fixating on some badboy or authority figure in their social sphere.

On the subject of sex education, “Mean Girls” magnificently satirises the fine line that parents have to walk:

“Don’t have sex. If you DO have sex, you WILL get pregnant. And die. Okay, who wants some rubbers?”

I have a friend who lost her virginity at 14 to her older brother’s best friend. He was older than her. guess what? They are married today and have three kids and are very very happy. It doesn’t always end badly.

Another success story: I met the woman I am about to marry when I was 15 and she was 13. We started dating when I was 17. Four years later I proposed.

Corollary: we’re strong Christians so both of us were okay with getting married young and neither of us could plausibly be called promiscuous.

People with actual confidence and pride and self-esteem don’t have to constantly tell other people how much they rock either.

I disagree, Donna.

I was the girl who sat home, alone, on Saturday night because I didn’t “put out”.

It bothered me the slutty girls got all the fun, and I DO regard them as slutty girls, thank you very much.

I had the belief I WAS the best thing that was ever going to happen any man lucky enough to have me.

I still feel that way today, and I’ve been HAPPILY married almost 40 years.

I have no doubt those who took other paths are just as happy with their choices – those who complain of slut shaming didn’t hesitate to dish out virgin shaming.

I wanted to be slutty – they WERE having all the fun! But I could never figure out how to be slutty and respect myself at the same time. Some girls do and I envy them.

The thing is, we must ALL be taught to be responsible for our behavior, male or female. You mothers who think their daughter’s morality needs to be upheld and protected by every teenboy out in the world instead of your moral teachings need to have your ehad examined – your infantalized notions are being passed onto your daughters.

Taylor: There was no ” pressure”. None of my friends made fun of me for not having sex. None of them encouraged me to have sex. None of them cared whether or not I had sex yet or not. I just heard them talk about it and became curious about it. I am a curious person by nature. So no, there was no pressure and I did not cave to anything. It is possible for someone to decide something for themselves for their own reasons, you know?

I think there have been more responses to the original post about “is my son a sex offender” than anything else I have seen on this blog. Responses seem to highlight the range of views, confused feelings, and personal experiences we have all had about sex.

A few responses have been a personal attack against someone else. As an avid reader of this blog, I find all of your thoughts and experiences interesting about child rearing, But when I read the personal attacks it hurts that people are putting others down and criticizing them. We can disagree with each others opinions without direct attacks.

See I guess my brain doesn’t work right because barring someone having mental disabilities or something very wrong with them or just being very very young, I hold people responsible for their own actions. My parents always held me responsible for anything I did wrong so I don’t cut other people breaks either. It has always been that way in our household that unless there is an ACTUAL gun or knife to your head, you are the one responsible for your own actions. End of story, no exceptions.

I am raising my kids the same way. We are in charge of our own destiny and the longer people blame stuff one someone else the longer they will continue to keep making the same mistakes.

I agree 15 year olds should not be having sex. Neither should 17 year olds really. However no, when a 17 year old and a 15 year old have been dating a long time and think they are in love, I doubt it is about the 17 year old taking advantage of the 15 year old. It is because they are in love and think that sex would enhance that. It is not always about taking advantage of someone.

“when a 17 year old and a 15 year old have been dating a long time and think they are in love”

I must assume this comment has nothing to do with the original post, where the couple knew each other “a few weeks” and the boy was so “in love” with the love of his life that he hadn’t bothered to mention her existence to his own mother.

very late to the party, but I just wanted to say – it seems like so many of these anecdotes have law enforcement involvement because of the parents of the girl being antiquated puritans about their precious little daughter’s sexual experimentations. They create an environment of judgment and punishment and the girl ends up lying and saying she was forced into it to get out of trouble, and then the law gets brought in.

again, anecdotal, but read through the stories and see how rarely the parents of the boy involved seem to bring in the law. Clearly many ‘modern’ parents are still raising their kids with ridiculous concepts of purity as befits men vs. women. This stresses me out for my future kids, especially if I have sons.

this is frustrating because it means girls are being raised to think of sex as something shameful and improper, STILL, nearly 50 years after a cultural sexual revolution. I do feel bad for women, it’s 2011 and in many ways you’re still being forced to live in the 1800s.