Tovah Klein is author of How fnsyaekdbd
Toddlers Thrive (Simon & Schuster, 2014), available online & in stores. She’s also director of the Barnard College Center for Toddler Development, and has been for over 20 years — she knows her stuff. I get her RSS feed and it is often so interesting, I find myself reading the whole thing, even though my kids are far from toddlers. That’s what happened the other day, and I asked if I could reprint her answer to this mom of a 4-year-old’s pressing question:
“My son is very social and loves to be outside. He runs around a lot so I try to find ways to get him out of the house, especially on the weekends. We signed him up for soccer on Saturdays. His best little buddy goes so I figured he’d enjoy it. But all he does is watch. He refuses to participate. I ask him later if he likes soccer and he says he does. Sometimes he does not want to go, though. Do I take him out of it? I worry he will learn it is okay to quit things. Or is he just too young (even though the other children enjoy it)?”
Tovah responded:
This is an all-too-common scenario for children at this age and stage of their young lives. The class, lesson or sport sounds ideal (to you, the parents, at least), and yet your child is not willing to participate, would rather observe, or refuses to get in the pool or go out on the field altogether.
I understand why this is confusing, especially when you’ve observed that your child loves playing with other children, kicking or throwing a ball, being outside (or all three!) but as soon as you enroll her in a group activity, she shuts down. When my first child was a young toddler, I enrolled him in a music class with me. He loved listening to and creating music on his own at home, so I figured the class would be a great fit. Instead, he spent the hour of class shying quietly away from the group and never participating. The music instructor was not so kind. When the session was over, she suggested that I skip enrolling him for the next term. I was embarrassed and wished that my son had better taken to the class (and that I hadn’t wasted a bunch of money learning the hard way that just because he liked music didn’t mean he’d like music class). For several years, my son refused to be part of group activities and I struggled between letting him just be and worrying if his reaction was “normal.” Then, at age eight he begged us to play Little League baseball. Ten years later, at eighteen, he is playing his final season.
What’s the lesson? Don’t push it. This lesson is backed by developmental research. Children who are put into activities too young are likely to feel frustration and refuse to participate or drop out. The experience may even turn your child off to the activity for the long term. Wait until your child is older and more ready, which varies greatly from child to child. As a basic guideline, the American Academy of Pediatrics warns that group sports activities are not appropriate before age 6. I encourage you to think similarly about other adult-led group classes for toddlers.
WHAT’S GOING ON?
I understand the urge of parents to sign their kids up for all kinds of activities. In the last several years, organized classes and events for young ones have proliferated at an exponential rate. It’s become like a rite of childhood passage, and it may seem like the earlier you start your child on skill building, the better. But in fact, the opposite holds true. Why?
Group activities require children to pay attention, listen and follow instructions to do the activity or sport a certain way. These are all good skills for your child to learn and master, except that young children, and toddlers in particular, learn differently. At this young age they learn best by hands-on doing, making up their own rules, experimenting, making mistakes and coming up with various ways to meet their goal. Group sports, lessons and other activities circumvent this process because the child is not self directed but led by an adult. While many of these group activities appear to be fun for your child, there can be negative, longer-term costs. These activities can actually work against your child’s development as they take away from free play and figuring things out on their own (with adult support when needed) that is central to this stage of learning. Before age six, hands off works better than hands on.
Agreed! And even after six, all the way up to senility. (A cheery thought.)
It’s so nice to see this. I’ve gotten so many questions as to why my four year old isn’t taking soccer classes, gymnastics, year round swim classes, etc. His older brother didn’t start sports until Kindergarten, he can wait too.
Grace on
We kept our three kids out of organized activities until they turned 8. Their younger years were stress-free for us in this regard as we were not running around to soccer and various games every weekend. Now that they are all eight and over we are enjoying participating in these activities–they are still only signed up for one each. We are not burned out as a family.
J.T. Wenting on
Parents don’t send people that age to sports teams and things like that for the enjoyment of the child, but for their own bragging right…
Anna on
This is timely. Many of my 4-year-old son’s friends are signed up for various sports this summer, and when their moms asked what we were doing, I was starting to vaguely wonder if I was missing the boat, but I think this advice is spot on.
The passage you quote mentions young kids working out their own games and rules: just this morning after church, my son and four other kids between 2 and 5 set up an elaborate game in a corner of the parish hall with a big “island” of chairs they had to step or jump between. It was lovely watching them collaboratively invent the game as they went – I saw them discussing the rules a number of times, quite amicably. I think Klein is right that playing together like that is far more age appropriate than a coached sport.
ChicagoDad on
When did 4-year olds become “toddlers”? I always thought the term “toddler” applied to when they were learning to walk and mastering that skill (when they are toddling about) from about 11 months until their 3rd birthday. 3 and 4 year olds are kids, children, and preschoolers, but not toddlers.
SKL on
Well I’ll just say that an hour a week (or even a little more) is not going to ruin a child’s life, regardless of what age he is. So the implied warning that the kid is going to be damaged if he tries sports before 6 is a bit ridiculous.
That said, in my experience we did not try team sports until my kids were 6-7. Before that my kids did group activities, but not team stuff. They took age-appropriate weekly half-hour classes. At age 4, they were doing several activities at daycare with coaches who came in during the day.
My reasons for wanting them to do these activities were: to develop language and body awareness; to get them working with different interaction styles; to allow them to move at times when they otherwise would be doing sedentary activities; and because at least one kid really enjoyed it. I might note that my kids had some individual issues that motivated me (language and physical considerations).
My kids did not grow an extra head or anything.
I did try “Kindermusik” when my kids were 2, and that was a fail. My kids would not open their mouths or particpate. I would not have cared, except that it was a lot of trouble for me to get them there after dinner just to have them take up space. 😛
Frankly, I’ve wondered if I’m overdoing it by having a couple of family passes to a few parks in the vicinity. Let alone sign my three-year-old up for a class or team.
Puzzled on
Hey, don’t forget that being a sports prodigy at 4 and a French horn master at 8 is how you get all the scholarships…
I put my 5 year old in soccer for three sessions and while he likes going and he has fun, I’ve decided to take some time off because he was fighting me so often about going in the first place using every excuse from “I don’t want to get sweaty” to “I don’t want to see my friends,” and I was just tired of the hassle, even though I know he would be fine once we got there. So, no more for awhile….except swimming lessons. He loves those and will go to them quite happily.
Emily on
>>When did 4-year olds become “toddlers”? I always thought the term “toddler” applied to when they were learning to walk and mastering that skill (when they are toddling about) from about 11 months until their 3rd birthday. 3 and 4 year olds are kids, children, and preschoolers, but not toddlers.<<
@ChicagoDad–I agree; three-and-four-year-olds are preschoolers, not toddlers. However, I've seen dance and gymnastics classes for two-year-olds (i.e., legitimate "toddlers"), and swimming and music lessons for kids younger than that, so extra-curricular activities for toddlers are actually a thing.
Katie G on
Swim lessons are one of the few things we’ve had our kids do very young, and the earlier any kids can acclimate to the water, the better. And at 6-week sessions it isn’t a huge commitment any given time, either.
Donna on
Since when are 4 year olds toddlers?!
I think it all depends on the kid. My daughter did kindermusick at 1 and loved it. Trapeze at 2 and 3 and loved it. And dance at 4-6 and loved it. She is still a joiner and loves having lots of extracurricular activities. She is also an only child in a neighborhood devoid of kids her age so that may play a part.
Katie on
I’d call group activities for young kids for like a rip-off. You know who thinks you should enroll your kids in them-the people who are charging you 10-15-20 dollars a class. When I’ve seen them too they seem to be most heavily attended by nannies and the parents have no clue how indifferent there child is too the class or even more so that there child hates it. I think the nannies are afraid to tell the parents the truth and those running them have an agenda. Worse driving kids around to activities confined to their car seats in just more childhood lost.
Anyway I like this post. Those of us who choice not to drag our child (or children) to these wastes of money often have the displeasure of having to listen to the thinks she knows it all mom because her nanny drags her kids around in her ugly gas guzzler to all these activities. Granted I really don’t listen to her anymore though because I now refuse to hang out with her. I love how one of her other comments and complaints is that all the stay at home mom’s hate her and have formed a clique against her.
Katie on
@Donna,
PS. Yes I forgot to mention that too about calling 4(and now I’m seeing even older) as toddlers. These toddlers just keep getting older all the time!
lollipoplover on
4-6 are not toddlers. They are preschoolers and kindergarteners. Why not evaluate each individual child, rather than place yet another age limit (6? My kids would be climbing the WALLS if they didn’t do organized sports, they are ACTIVE!)
Two hours a week in a quality rec league with great volunteer coaches has had a very positive impact, actually.
I’ve coached youth sports for years so I have a different perspective. Play has evolved. i want my kids to have free range play experiences yet when THEY ASK to sign up for a particular sport, usually because their friends are doing it, I let them choose these experiences instead of pushing them to do something just because of their age. Isn’t the point of *free play* to let THEM decide?
“These activities can actually work against your child’s development as they take away from free play and figuring things out on their own (with adult support when needed) that is central to this stage of learning.”
When the child asks to try a particular sport- isn’t that figuring things out on their own?
My son asked to go to an *open mat* wrestling night at our local high school when he was 5. The boys in his kindergarten class were all going. They did obstacle courses, army crawls, climbed the ropes, and of course tumbled and wrestled. He LOVED it and begged us to sign him up. At 5. We did. You’d think I signed him up for combat with all of the criticism I got for that, and this expert would agree.
His coaches taught him push up form, planks, yoga poses, and things I wish someone taught me about fitness at this age. He became interested in nutrition and fueling his body and getting strong.
As for his development- he goes to the gym most days at 5 am (before school). He made the high school wrestling team in middle school. There’s a poster in his room that says “Once you’ve wrestled, everything else in life is easy.~Dan Gamble” He’s a fitness buff at an age when many of his friends are experimenting with drugs and alcohol. He’s figured many things out on his own despite our harming his development with organized sports.
My daughter starting playing organized sports at 4! My husband and I coached our 6 year-old son’s soccer team and had our daughters on the bench (4 and 2) with some toys to occupy them during practices and games. During our first game, the other team had some young David Beckham who was killing us and we were playing no goalies. I went to sub in our bench and noticed my older daughter was missing. She had walked on the field and gotten in the goal to play goalie (we brought them to all of the practices). I tried to get her off, but she was really good! The other coach didn’t mind so we let her play the rest of the season as a *guest* player on the field. She was watching and learning, even though we she was being dragged to an organized sport before the *right* age.
She is an all around amazing athlete. It seems to come naturally to her. She LOVES soccer and wants to play it all the time. I still let HER choose the team she wants to play on (it gets very complicated as they get older with the allure of *premiere* leagues and high profile play and school sports) as playing any sport or activity should be child-driven, not parent. Organized or free, this is still THEIR play time. Let them pick something they love. If you notice them stop loving it or liking it, ask them what they want to do with THEIR free time instead.
I hate that we still debate free play, and give age limits to what our children choose to do with their playtime. Some kids enjoy sports. They make friends (which makes neighborhood play- it’s amazing the kids you meet in sports who go to religious our private schools and live right around the corner- much easier for that unstructured free play that everyone wants our kids to experience).
They can move their bodies and release stress to become less worried, happier, and content kids. They learn disappointment (striking out isn’t the end of the world) and how to deal with adversity and what good sportsmanlike conduct looks like, and doesn’t look like (usually parents yelling at referees).
Not all organized sports are the same! Many kids do benefit (Michael Phelps starting swimming to address his ADHD) from sports, even at young ages. Stop with the age limits and let the kids decide.
BL on
@lollipoplover
“what good sportsmanlike conduct looks like”
Lost in this shuffle of organized(-by adults-for-children-)sports is the self-organized sandlot baseball, backyard touch football, pond hockey, driveway basketball, etc., where you call your own penalties and no-one will play with you if you’re dishonest about it. That’s meaningful sportsmanship – not “we can get away with anything if the ref doesn’t see it” that prevails in so much “organized” sport.
Katie on
@BL
I completely agree with that. Organized sports has now become about “me and my kid and whatever we can get away with”. If anything it teaches kids to be worse people, not better people. I remember as a kid, how much better a job the kids did of self enforcing in free play. You cheat and you would certainly have a group of kids angry at you.
Katie on
@Lollipop, BL
PS Douchebags like Michael Phelps are the exact reason I don’t want my kid in organized sports. Michael Phelps is a horrible person who thinks he can hurt and endanger whomever he wants because he’s an Olympic gold medalist. In fact I hate even calling him a person. He drives around a giant gas guzzler drunk indifferent to whom he might kill, because he is an entitled jerk because people have mindleslys told him how wonderful he is. He should be in jail for years and years. My first priority is having a kid who isn’t an entitled jerk. If my kid turned out to be like Michael Phelps I would consider myself an utter failure as a mom.
James Pollock on
With regard to the motor skills required for most organized sports, 4-year-olds are still “toddlers”, in the literal sense. Why does it matter what you (or anyone else) calls them?
MichaelF on
Not over scheduling is a good thing, and one I try to do. Signing them up for one sport at a time is the best way to keep from getting headaches. Most parents in my area who do sign up for more than one a season are usually looking to pad the college resume. I’ve tried to get some variety for the kids, signing up for one season and let them see what they like, other than swimming to acclimate them to the water early, otherwise they tend to be more reticent later on, though all kids are different. Skating was one we tried setting up early as well, to give them more practice on balance, and they can take those skills to roller blading and everything else.
Mark Roulo on
From the article:
“Children who are put into activities too young are likely to feel frustration and refuse to participate or drop out. The experience may even turn your child off to the activity for the long term. Wait until your child is older and more ready, which varies greatly from child to child. As a basic guideline, the American Academy of Pediatrics warns that group sports activities are not appropriate before age 6.”
and from the AAP:
“Before age 6 years, most children do not have the basic motor skills for organized sports. Balance and attention span are limited, and vision and ability to track moving objects are not fully mature. Instead, look for other sports activities that focus on basic skills such as running, swimming, tumbling, throwing, and catching. These skills can be improved through active play but do not require organized sports activities. Children at this age have a short attention span and learn best when they can explore, experiment, and copy others. Instruction should be limited, follow a show-and-tell format, and include playtime. Competition should be avoided. Parents can be good role models and should be encouraged to participate.
By age 6 years, most children have the basic motor skills for simple organized sports. However, they may still lack the hand-eye coordination needed to perform complex motor skills and may not yet be ready to understand and remember concepts like teamwork and strategies. Sports that can be adapted to be played at a basic level and focus on basic motor skills are the most appropriate. This includes running, swimming, soccer, baseball, tennis, gymnastics, martial arts, and skiing. Sports that require complex visual and motor skills, quick decision-making, or detailed strategies or teamwork (football, basketball, hockey, volleyball) will be difficult unless modified for younger players. Rules should be flexible to promote success, action, and participation. The sport should focus on learning new skills rather than winning. The equipment and rules should also be appropriate for young children. For example, smaller balls, smaller fields, shorter game times and practices, fewer children playing at the same time, frequent changing of positions, and less focus on score keeping.”
The “organized” sports that my child played pretty much followed these models. One learns *VERY* quickly that six and seven year olds don’t have much hand-eye coordination and have the attention spans of gnats 🙂 So T-ball and YMCA basketball adjust to this. It isn’t like many six year olds are in kid-pitch baseball, so what exactly is the problem here?
lollipoplover on
“Lost in this shuffle of organized(-by adults-for-children-)sports is the self-organized sandlot baseball, backyard touch football, pond hockey, driveway basketball, etc., where you call your own penalties and no-one will play with you if you’re dishonest about it.”
@BL- What I see in our neighborhoods is many kids playing rec level sports (not travel) for one season with local kids and pretty good competition and fun. This is what I love to coach. They learn the basic rules of the games (vs. from Madden) and take these once a week games to different levels in the neighborhood. We have tons of pickup games that are kid-organized. One of the best is the swim club fields… they have epic sandlot games and don’t tolerate cheaters or crybabies. We have local parks within walking distance where former teammates put some games together. Our driveway basketball court is in play most days of good weather (but especially during basketball season).
Some DO learn meaningful sportsmanship and real-life social skills. This summer will be different. Some of these kids will be lifeguards at the pool (though I still think they will play many games in the fields).
I find the proportion of jerk parents equal to the amount of money put into a sport (there are many exceptions, but just my personal experience.)
@Katie-
“Michael Phelps is a horrible person who thinks he can hurt and endanger whomever he wants because he’s an Olympic gold medalist. In fact I hate even calling him a person. He drives around a giant gas guzzler drunk indifferent to whom he might kill, because he is an entitled jerk because people have mindleslys told him how wonderful he is. He should be in jail for years and years.”
OF COURSE he’s a horrible person. He drives an SUV.
That makes him a member of the dreaded GGG.
Giant.Gas.Guzzler.
We all know that makes him downright diabolical according to your standards. How did this discussion of youth sports turn into Law and Order: SUV?
Oh, yeah, Katie.
I only used him as an example (I will try to find a Prius driver next time) of someone who at a young age found sports to help with ADHD symptoms vs. medication. Perhaps he would have been an even BIGGER asshole, at an earlier age, had it not been for swimming….or made better CAR choices, right??
Art on
On the other hand, we have my 5 year old nephew who HATES organized sports, but he can’t quit because his dad is a pure grade A ahole. I don’t get it how this over-scheduling is helping families and kids.
Donna on
So basically the article completely misrepresented the stance of AAP, which does not state that group sports activities are not appropriate before age 6 at all. What is says is that such activities should be focused on basic skills, be taught through showing and incorporate free play. This age child does not require organized sports to enhance those basic skills, but there is absolutely no discouragement whatsoever from engaging in classes, etc. which are geared towards the developmental abilities of children under 6.
Kathea on
The timing of this couldn’t be more perfect. My husband and I were talking about this just this weekend. Our son is almost 2.5. I don’t want to over-schedule, or to be honest, schedule him at all for any sort of extra activities until he can ask for it. I really don’t want to pay for it either if he’s not going to participate. His daycare, which we love, was offering a summer soccer camp. For $95 they get soccer instruction and get to play for A WHOLE WEEK. No, just no. That’s an airbrush tan and manicure for mommy. You get a lot of great things from sports but you don’t have to get them at 2 or 4 or 7.
Katie on
@Lollipop,
How exactly did it help his ADHD? From what I can tell it didn’t. He seems to self medicate with alcohol and drugs. If he was then not driving (especially a giant gas guzzler) I’d say his self medicating would be a personal choice. But making the choice put others in harm-well he shouldn’t be in a pool, he should be in jail.
Anyways, I think parents who over schedule their kids will just look for any justification possible, even when it doesn’t exist anywhere but in their own minds, to try to justify it.
Katie on
@Kathea
Good for you for thinking it through. We have the same discussions too and feel the same way! I hate the societal pressure that says spend all your money on your children instead of yourself (or even the family as a whole), even when you know that money is a waste! Doing nice things for yourself can help you be a better mom and at the same time allow your kid to be a kid!
Katie on
@Art
That is just sad. My guess is it is probably all about the dad’s ego? But let me guess dad justifies it with meaningless words like “good sportsmanship”, “life skills”, “my kid is talented” etc?”
andy on
My kids liked organised activities at that age – both at 4 and when they were actual toddlers. They asked repeatedly to go off season and only rarely refused to go. When they refused to go too hard once, we did not went and then they cried 🙂 and there was no problem next time (it was predictable).
I am not saying it was necessary for them, but we could afford it and I highly doubt it damaged them as article seems to suggest. I highly doubt a bit of organized activity would destroy whatever at that age.
If the activity really discourages the kid so much, sure. But most clubs willing to deal with little ones adjust activities to their age.
James Pollock on
“I only used him as an example (I will try to find a Prius driver next time) of someone who at a young age found sports to help with ADHD symptoms vs. medication. Perhaps he would have been an even BIGGER asshole, at an earlier age, had it not been for swimming….or made better CAR choices, right??”
You missed the point. The rant wasn’t directed at the car he was in, it was directed at the alcohol that was in him. He’s been arrested at least twice for DUI. It’s not clear that this is related to his athletic success, but it’s certainly not something that should be emulated.
SKL on
Some of you seem to think the choice for preschoolers is between (a) pee wee sports and (b) “sand lot” sports with all the neighborhood kids. But what you’re forgetting is that many kids live in neighborhoods where there are few or no kids in their age group, usually zero who are allowed free outdoor play, and the nearest “sand lot” is a mile or more away. Even when I was a kid, 4yos did not play “sand lot” sports. But they did get to go play outside with kids, which is pretty rare in many neighborhoods today.
My kids’ real choices were (a) sit at home or (b) engage in an organized activity. In our case, their activities were at daycare, so they didn’t cut into “unorganized” time. But even if they didn’t, sitting at home (usually indoors since it gets dark early here) wouldn’t be such a great deal that a few hours a week of organized activities would ruin their childhood.
People keep using the term “over-scheduled.” I am curious how having a kid in one pee wee sport is “overscheduling” him. I mean, I’m a single mom, so I get that there are times when it’s hard to get from work to dinner to sports with kids who need a lot of help. I’ve been there. (BTW it can be just as hectic to take kids to the park or pool for some free play.) But many activities are scheduled at reasonable times, and many parents have help making everything happen. From the kids’ perspective, having a change of scene a couple evenings a week is not a bad thing. Being with people outside the family is not a bad thing, especially when there aren’t natural opportunities for this in the neighborhood.
I hear some sanctimonious comments above, “thanks for confirming that I’m better than other moms,” but I will consider the sources and let that pass. 🙂
SKL on
I think Lenore used the term “toddler” because some people do actually fuss over whether their tot is doing it right at sports. I hope she wasn’t saying 4yo is a toddler.
But yeah, I’ve seen people call kids as old as 5 “toddlers” (especially in the context of tot-expected behavior like public tantrums). That bugs me. Well, then there are people who will say kids as old as 5/6 are “babies.” Recently a mom was criticizing a woman who felt a 10yo was too old for the ladies’ dressing room at the pool. She said how do you know it wasn’t just a really big 6yo, and 6yos are “just babies.” Um, no, when my daughters were 6yo they did not want to be all nakey with their classmates! Really??
4yos. I’ve known some still in diapers, and I’ve known one who could read, shop at the store, and cook a simple meal on her own. Quite a range.
Donna on
I figured Lenore was using the word toddler because the author she is quoting calls 4 year olds toddlers. I was commenting more about Tovah Klein than Lenore. Klein appears to believe that children are toddlers until they are 5. Her book is called “How Toddlers Thrive” and then indicates that it is about kids 2-5.
TeacherJR on
I started playing organized sports around age 7, or second grade. At that age, we were old enough to learn the rules and follow them, and work together as a team. On nearby fields, they would have soccer and t-ball for the younger kids (5yo or so).
I remember my dad telling me it was absolutely ridiculous to put kids that age in real sports, and to prove it, we just watched for a while. The soccer game was just a giant blob of kids all chasing a ball around the field because nobody knew how to play a position, and the t-ball had at least one kid run down the third base line after hitting the ball. From an adult perspective, trying to get the really little kids to do sports must be like herding cats.
Are there some little kids who have sufficient physical, mental, and emotional maturity for organized sports? Sure. But most of them probably do not, especially if they are “indoor” kids who haven’t developed fine or gross motor skills (with the exception of video game thumbs and a swiping finger).
Papilio on
To me, little kids are babies until they turn 1/start walking, I take toddlers as translation of ‘peuters’, age 1-3 (there’s ‘young peuters’ and ‘old peuters’ within that category), and then when kids turn 4 they go to primary school* and are ‘kleuters’ until they go to first grade some time when they’re 6.
Anyway, over here a common thing is putting the children (especially when it’s more than 1) in swimming class when they’re 5 and only letting them choose another sport/hobby after they get their swimming diploma. Soccer doesn’t even seem to start until age 5 or 6.
*The consequence of this is that I always initially think preschoolers are 3, and then I remember yours are 4 🙂
James Pollock on
“The consequence of this is that I always initially think preschoolers are 3, and then I remember yours are 4”
Kindergarten as part of public school is a relatively recent development here. When I was a child, it was extremely common to go straight to first grade with no “preschool” (a catchall term that described any sort of program designed to make children school-ready by the start of first-grade. I’d say that probably and 2/3 of my first-grade class came to school from an environment where mom was home with the children until they started first grade.
Another common scenario was in-home daycare, where the “daycare” was somebody’s home rather than a dedicated facility.
So back then, a “preschooler” might be as old as 6.
Now, in my state, we have public kindergarten for a half-day, so kids as young a 4 may be “in school”.
Art on
@Katie
Yes, that’s exactly what he does. He will not recognize any differences or allow for differences or individuality if his kids doesn’t want to do what HE thinks they should do. The couple of times the five year old threw a fit and flat out said “I’M NOT GOING!” and stayed home, the oldest boy, whose 13, will ride him constantly for two days until next practice, saying that “he let his team down” and that he should have gone. I came down hard on the 13 year old once for this, and he explained to him that missing a practice at age 5 doesn’t mean jack shit in terms of the grand scheme of things.
lollipoplover on
“The soccer game was just a giant blob of kids all chasing a ball around the field because nobody knew how to play a position, and the t-ball had at least one kid run down the third base line after hitting the ball. From an adult perspective, trying to get the really little kids to do sports must be like herding cats.”
We call that Magnaball, like the ball is a magnet and they all want it. It’s very normal to want the ball and play the whole game especially at young ages. And yes, playing *real* soccer games is ridiculous, these kids just naturally want to play. We did multiple small field games, 2 v 2 or 3 v 3, and let them have a ball on their foot for whatever short period you think they want to play, usually an hour. Kids at age 6 will tell you the games the love to play- Simon says, knock out, or relay races, and take back to their neighborhood friends to have fun. I love teaching and learning new games from kids and that’s pretty much all we did during practices. Simon Says toe touches (soccer toe to ball skill) is fun and then followed up with a Simon Says put your nose on the ball is funnier and probably ridiculous but that’s what they liked and organized or not, it is THEIR play time.
We all want them to go outside and play, freely, with other kids but it seems the childhood days of playing simple outdoor games is going extinct, replaced with Candy Crush and Minecraft, Obesity and Diabetes.
I don’t have the solution but also don’t think ALL organized sports for young children are evil, either.
They are not *herding cats*, these kids can read and use technology, but playing a basic soccer game is too advanced?
TeacherJR on
@Lollipoplover –
It sounds like what you’re describing is akin to a pickup league for adults. Not too much structure or hard-core competition, but everyone knows there’s a regular meetup at the park at 6 so you can play with your friends and maybe learn a few things.
I suspect we don’t have a common definition for the phrase, “herding cats.” It has nothing to do with the level of a child’s intelligence. Cats are generally independent creatures who almost never do the same thing at the same time. A human can make a group of sheep and perhaps even a group of dogs all behave the same way at the same time, but it generally won’t work with felines. “Herding cats” describes the frustration (and sometimes the futility) of managing a group of individuals who aren’t all on the same page.
Young children behave similarly to cats in many respects – they have shorter attention spans and lower impulse control than older kids, so they are less able to devote sustained attention to an activity and are more likely to go do their own thing instead.
lollipoplover on
@TeacherJR-
We have 2 cats that were adopted as feral kittens from behind a dumpster who act more like dogs. They know their names and come when we call them outdoors (they’re indoor/outdoor cats) and are outgoing and friendly with guests and children especially. Perhaps I don’t know how cats generally behav (I know they have a reputation as a**holes) since my frame of reference is different and I guess it is for young children, too. Most of the kids I’ve coached (and this is community, rec league sports- on their school fields with local kids) don’t fit into your definition of how they should act their age with attention and impulse control.
I’ve also seen much older kids with terrible impulse control.
Lots of adults, too.
TeacherJR on
@Lollipoplover –
Of course it is possible to find exceptions to every rule (or axiom). I’ve known dog-like cats, and cat-like dogs. I’ve encountered younger children who were excellent at devoting sustained interest to organized group activities, and older children who spent their time in the outfield looking for four-leaf clover rather than paying attention to the game. That being said, my comment addressed the characteristics of cats, dogs, sheep, and children *in general*, not in specific instances or about specific individuals.
If a kid wants to play an organized sport, and is developmentally ready to play one, I’m all for it. It sounds like the majority of the children you’ve coached fall into that category. However, I don’t agree with parents pushing kids into activities that are beyond their capabilities or interests. I wonder how many kids get shoved into pee-wee football or t-ball when they’d really be much happier playing catch with mom or dad at home.
andy on
@TeacherJR My observation was exactly opposite – little children tend to have herd tendency and when group does something, next kid does the same. They seemed to hapily do things they would normally avoid as members of group.
Classes for little ones I have seen worked quite well. Again, I am not saying they are necessary or have long term impact, but they were no trauma and no drama. Of course they were not doing the same things as school aged children and focus was different. But, they were not messy pack of disordered kids bored of too difficult activity.
lollipoplover on
@TeacherJR-
I agree 100% that children should not be pushed into sports or activities, ever. It’s not just organized sports, there’s dance, music lessons, scouts, etc. Don’t sign your kids up for activities unless they ask to do it. My mother gave me the best piece of advice, “Don’t try to make happy children happier.”
But kids today are savvy, even at young ages. A child who goes to daycare or preschool interacts with lots of other children and they DO discuss what they do outside of school. Kids talk!
If your child asks to try something, what does a “We don’t do organized sports before age 6” family do or say? No, you can’t try soccer because you’re too young? That part has me scratching my head because, why not? That was our reality…our kids asked to try things, lots of things. We limited to 1 per kid per season. A few were disasters (dance, music, violin) and lasted very briefly. A child saying, “I don’t want to go” is usually not interesting in that activity (get a clue). Hobbies/sports should enhance your life and be enjoyable activities.
“These activities can actually work against your child’s development as they take away from free play and figuring things out on their own (with adult support when needed) that is central to this stage of learning.”
Exactly.
Dee on
Love this! I was in no hurry to start the sports thing. And by the time we tried it (1st grade?) he was still too distractable. Honestly, he never got it into and I never had to go to 3 practices plus a game each week (yay!). But I agree, 4 is too young. No one I grew up with joined a sport until jr. high at the very earliest!
Maybe we should promote informal gamesthat can be played with a baseball, basketball, or football./
FOTBALL: Touch, “Yards”
BASEBALL- 500, scrub, American Ping-Pong
BASKETBALL- Poison, Twenty-One
Curious on
Why can’t you leave the poor kids alone and let them grow? It’s worked since the beginning of the human race. And long before. Don’t modern parents have a life of their own? Parents have too much time on their hands. Child rearing used to be natural. Now it’s as stressful as getting accepted at Harvard or Stanford. Poor little kiddies! Poor stressed out grown-ups!
SKL on
I really don’t understand the tone of many of the comments. What happened to “parents know best”? It’s like everything else. If it works for us, it’s good. End of discussion.
50 Comments
It’s so nice to see this. I’ve gotten so many questions as to why my four year old isn’t taking soccer classes, gymnastics, year round swim classes, etc. His older brother didn’t start sports until Kindergarten, he can wait too.
We kept our three kids out of organized activities until they turned 8. Their younger years were stress-free for us in this regard as we were not running around to soccer and various games every weekend. Now that they are all eight and over we are enjoying participating in these activities–they are still only signed up for one each. We are not burned out as a family.
Parents don’t send people that age to sports teams and things like that for the enjoyment of the child, but for their own bragging right…
This is timely. Many of my 4-year-old son’s friends are signed up for various sports this summer, and when their moms asked what we were doing, I was starting to vaguely wonder if I was missing the boat, but I think this advice is spot on.
The passage you quote mentions young kids working out their own games and rules: just this morning after church, my son and four other kids between 2 and 5 set up an elaborate game in a corner of the parish hall with a big “island” of chairs they had to step or jump between. It was lovely watching them collaboratively invent the game as they went – I saw them discussing the rules a number of times, quite amicably. I think Klein is right that playing together like that is far more age appropriate than a coached sport.
When did 4-year olds become “toddlers”? I always thought the term “toddler” applied to when they were learning to walk and mastering that skill (when they are toddling about) from about 11 months until their 3rd birthday. 3 and 4 year olds are kids, children, and preschoolers, but not toddlers.
Well I’ll just say that an hour a week (or even a little more) is not going to ruin a child’s life, regardless of what age he is. So the implied warning that the kid is going to be damaged if he tries sports before 6 is a bit ridiculous.
That said, in my experience we did not try team sports until my kids were 6-7. Before that my kids did group activities, but not team stuff. They took age-appropriate weekly half-hour classes. At age 4, they were doing several activities at daycare with coaches who came in during the day.
My reasons for wanting them to do these activities were: to develop language and body awareness; to get them working with different interaction styles; to allow them to move at times when they otherwise would be doing sedentary activities; and because at least one kid really enjoyed it. I might note that my kids had some individual issues that motivated me (language and physical considerations).
My kids did not grow an extra head or anything.
I did try “Kindermusik” when my kids were 2, and that was a fail. My kids would not open their mouths or particpate. I would not have cared, except that it was a lot of trouble for me to get them there after dinner just to have them take up space. 😛
There are organized sports for toddlers? Where have I been?
Frankly, I’ve wondered if I’m overdoing it by having a couple of family passes to a few parks in the vicinity. Let alone sign my three-year-old up for a class or team.
Hey, don’t forget that being a sports prodigy at 4 and a French horn master at 8 is how you get all the scholarships…
It IS ok to quit things!
I put my 5 year old in soccer for three sessions and while he likes going and he has fun, I’ve decided to take some time off because he was fighting me so often about going in the first place using every excuse from “I don’t want to get sweaty” to “I don’t want to see my friends,” and I was just tired of the hassle, even though I know he would be fine once we got there. So, no more for awhile….except swimming lessons. He loves those and will go to them quite happily.
>>When did 4-year olds become “toddlers”? I always thought the term “toddler” applied to when they were learning to walk and mastering that skill (when they are toddling about) from about 11 months until their 3rd birthday. 3 and 4 year olds are kids, children, and preschoolers, but not toddlers.<<
@ChicagoDad–I agree; three-and-four-year-olds are preschoolers, not toddlers. However, I've seen dance and gymnastics classes for two-year-olds (i.e., legitimate "toddlers"), and swimming and music lessons for kids younger than that, so extra-curricular activities for toddlers are actually a thing.
Swim lessons are one of the few things we’ve had our kids do very young, and the earlier any kids can acclimate to the water, the better. And at 6-week sessions it isn’t a huge commitment any given time, either.
Since when are 4 year olds toddlers?!
I think it all depends on the kid. My daughter did kindermusick at 1 and loved it. Trapeze at 2 and 3 and loved it. And dance at 4-6 and loved it. She is still a joiner and loves having lots of extracurricular activities. She is also an only child in a neighborhood devoid of kids her age so that may play a part.
I’d call group activities for young kids for like a rip-off. You know who thinks you should enroll your kids in them-the people who are charging you 10-15-20 dollars a class. When I’ve seen them too they seem to be most heavily attended by nannies and the parents have no clue how indifferent there child is too the class or even more so that there child hates it. I think the nannies are afraid to tell the parents the truth and those running them have an agenda. Worse driving kids around to activities confined to their car seats in just more childhood lost.
Anyway I like this post. Those of us who choice not to drag our child (or children) to these wastes of money often have the displeasure of having to listen to the thinks she knows it all mom because her nanny drags her kids around in her ugly gas guzzler to all these activities. Granted I really don’t listen to her anymore though because I now refuse to hang out with her. I love how one of her other comments and complaints is that all the stay at home mom’s hate her and have formed a clique against her.
@Donna,
PS. Yes I forgot to mention that too about calling 4(and now I’m seeing even older) as toddlers. These toddlers just keep getting older all the time!
4-6 are not toddlers. They are preschoolers and kindergarteners. Why not evaluate each individual child, rather than place yet another age limit (6? My kids would be climbing the WALLS if they didn’t do organized sports, they are ACTIVE!)
Two hours a week in a quality rec league with great volunteer coaches has had a very positive impact, actually.
I’ve coached youth sports for years so I have a different perspective. Play has evolved. i want my kids to have free range play experiences yet when THEY ASK to sign up for a particular sport, usually because their friends are doing it, I let them choose these experiences instead of pushing them to do something just because of their age. Isn’t the point of *free play* to let THEM decide?
“These activities can actually work against your child’s development as they take away from free play and figuring things out on their own (with adult support when needed) that is central to this stage of learning.”
When the child asks to try a particular sport- isn’t that figuring things out on their own?
My son asked to go to an *open mat* wrestling night at our local high school when he was 5. The boys in his kindergarten class were all going. They did obstacle courses, army crawls, climbed the ropes, and of course tumbled and wrestled. He LOVED it and begged us to sign him up. At 5. We did. You’d think I signed him up for combat with all of the criticism I got for that, and this expert would agree.
His coaches taught him push up form, planks, yoga poses, and things I wish someone taught me about fitness at this age. He became interested in nutrition and fueling his body and getting strong.
As for his development- he goes to the gym most days at 5 am (before school). He made the high school wrestling team in middle school. There’s a poster in his room that says “Once you’ve wrestled, everything else in life is easy.~Dan Gamble” He’s a fitness buff at an age when many of his friends are experimenting with drugs and alcohol. He’s figured many things out on his own despite our harming his development with organized sports.
My daughter starting playing organized sports at 4! My husband and I coached our 6 year-old son’s soccer team and had our daughters on the bench (4 and 2) with some toys to occupy them during practices and games. During our first game, the other team had some young David Beckham who was killing us and we were playing no goalies. I went to sub in our bench and noticed my older daughter was missing. She had walked on the field and gotten in the goal to play goalie (we brought them to all of the practices). I tried to get her off, but she was really good! The other coach didn’t mind so we let her play the rest of the season as a *guest* player on the field. She was watching and learning, even though we she was being dragged to an organized sport before the *right* age.
She is an all around amazing athlete. It seems to come naturally to her. She LOVES soccer and wants to play it all the time. I still let HER choose the team she wants to play on (it gets very complicated as they get older with the allure of *premiere* leagues and high profile play and school sports) as playing any sport or activity should be child-driven, not parent. Organized or free, this is still THEIR play time. Let them pick something they love. If you notice them stop loving it or liking it, ask them what they want to do with THEIR free time instead.
I hate that we still debate free play, and give age limits to what our children choose to do with their playtime. Some kids enjoy sports. They make friends (which makes neighborhood play- it’s amazing the kids you meet in sports who go to religious our private schools and live right around the corner- much easier for that unstructured free play that everyone wants our kids to experience).
They can move their bodies and release stress to become less worried, happier, and content kids. They learn disappointment (striking out isn’t the end of the world) and how to deal with adversity and what good sportsmanlike conduct looks like, and doesn’t look like (usually parents yelling at referees).
Not all organized sports are the same! Many kids do benefit (Michael Phelps starting swimming to address his ADHD) from sports, even at young ages. Stop with the age limits and let the kids decide.
@lollipoplover
“what good sportsmanlike conduct looks like”
Lost in this shuffle of organized(-by adults-for-children-)sports is the self-organized sandlot baseball, backyard touch football, pond hockey, driveway basketball, etc., where you call your own penalties and no-one will play with you if you’re dishonest about it. That’s meaningful sportsmanship – not “we can get away with anything if the ref doesn’t see it” that prevails in so much “organized” sport.
@BL
I completely agree with that. Organized sports has now become about “me and my kid and whatever we can get away with”. If anything it teaches kids to be worse people, not better people. I remember as a kid, how much better a job the kids did of self enforcing in free play. You cheat and you would certainly have a group of kids angry at you.
@Lollipop, BL
PS Douchebags like Michael Phelps are the exact reason I don’t want my kid in organized sports. Michael Phelps is a horrible person who thinks he can hurt and endanger whomever he wants because he’s an Olympic gold medalist. In fact I hate even calling him a person. He drives around a giant gas guzzler drunk indifferent to whom he might kill, because he is an entitled jerk because people have mindleslys told him how wonderful he is. He should be in jail for years and years. My first priority is having a kid who isn’t an entitled jerk. If my kid turned out to be like Michael Phelps I would consider myself an utter failure as a mom.
With regard to the motor skills required for most organized sports, 4-year-olds are still “toddlers”, in the literal sense. Why does it matter what you (or anyone else) calls them?
Not over scheduling is a good thing, and one I try to do. Signing them up for one sport at a time is the best way to keep from getting headaches. Most parents in my area who do sign up for more than one a season are usually looking to pad the college resume. I’ve tried to get some variety for the kids, signing up for one season and let them see what they like, other than swimming to acclimate them to the water early, otherwise they tend to be more reticent later on, though all kids are different. Skating was one we tried setting up early as well, to give them more practice on balance, and they can take those skills to roller blading and everything else.
From the article:
“Children who are put into activities too young are likely to feel frustration and refuse to participate or drop out. The experience may even turn your child off to the activity for the long term. Wait until your child is older and more ready, which varies greatly from child to child. As a basic guideline, the American Academy of Pediatrics warns that group sports activities are not appropriate before age 6.”
and from the AAP:
“Before age 6 years, most children do not have the basic motor skills for organized sports. Balance and attention span are limited, and vision and ability to track moving objects are not fully mature. Instead, look for other sports activities that focus on basic skills such as running, swimming, tumbling, throwing, and catching. These skills can be improved through active play but do not require organized sports activities. Children at this age have a short attention span and learn best when they can explore, experiment, and copy others. Instruction should be limited, follow a show-and-tell format, and include playtime. Competition should be avoided. Parents can be good role models and should be encouraged to participate.
By age 6 years, most children have the basic motor skills for simple organized sports. However, they may still lack the hand-eye coordination needed to perform complex motor skills and may not yet be ready to understand and remember concepts like teamwork and strategies. Sports that can be adapted to be played at a basic level and focus on basic motor skills are the most appropriate. This includes running, swimming, soccer, baseball, tennis, gymnastics, martial arts, and skiing. Sports that require complex visual and motor skills, quick decision-making, or detailed strategies or teamwork (football, basketball, hockey, volleyball) will be difficult unless modified for younger players. Rules should be flexible to promote success, action, and participation. The sport should focus on learning new skills rather than winning. The equipment and rules should also be appropriate for young children. For example, smaller balls, smaller fields, shorter game times and practices, fewer children playing at the same time, frequent changing of positions, and less focus on score keeping.”
The “organized” sports that my child played pretty much followed these models. One learns *VERY* quickly that six and seven year olds don’t have much hand-eye coordination and have the attention spans of gnats 🙂 So T-ball and YMCA basketball adjust to this. It isn’t like many six year olds are in kid-pitch baseball, so what exactly is the problem here?
“Lost in this shuffle of organized(-by adults-for-children-)sports is the self-organized sandlot baseball, backyard touch football, pond hockey, driveway basketball, etc., where you call your own penalties and no-one will play with you if you’re dishonest about it.”
@BL- What I see in our neighborhoods is many kids playing rec level sports (not travel) for one season with local kids and pretty good competition and fun. This is what I love to coach. They learn the basic rules of the games (vs. from Madden) and take these once a week games to different levels in the neighborhood. We have tons of pickup games that are kid-organized. One of the best is the swim club fields… they have epic sandlot games and don’t tolerate cheaters or crybabies. We have local parks within walking distance where former teammates put some games together. Our driveway basketball court is in play most days of good weather (but especially during basketball season).
Some DO learn meaningful sportsmanship and real-life social skills. This summer will be different. Some of these kids will be lifeguards at the pool (though I still think they will play many games in the fields).
I find the proportion of jerk parents equal to the amount of money put into a sport (there are many exceptions, but just my personal experience.)
@Katie-
“Michael Phelps is a horrible person who thinks he can hurt and endanger whomever he wants because he’s an Olympic gold medalist. In fact I hate even calling him a person. He drives around a giant gas guzzler drunk indifferent to whom he might kill, because he is an entitled jerk because people have mindleslys told him how wonderful he is. He should be in jail for years and years.”
OF COURSE he’s a horrible person. He drives an SUV.
That makes him a member of the dreaded GGG.
Giant.Gas.Guzzler.
We all know that makes him downright diabolical according to your standards. How did this discussion of youth sports turn into Law and Order: SUV?
Oh, yeah, Katie.
I only used him as an example (I will try to find a Prius driver next time) of someone who at a young age found sports to help with ADHD symptoms vs. medication. Perhaps he would have been an even BIGGER asshole, at an earlier age, had it not been for swimming….or made better CAR choices, right??
On the other hand, we have my 5 year old nephew who HATES organized sports, but he can’t quit because his dad is a pure grade A ahole. I don’t get it how this over-scheduling is helping families and kids.
So basically the article completely misrepresented the stance of AAP, which does not state that group sports activities are not appropriate before age 6 at all. What is says is that such activities should be focused on basic skills, be taught through showing and incorporate free play. This age child does not require organized sports to enhance those basic skills, but there is absolutely no discouragement whatsoever from engaging in classes, etc. which are geared towards the developmental abilities of children under 6.
The timing of this couldn’t be more perfect. My husband and I were talking about this just this weekend. Our son is almost 2.5. I don’t want to over-schedule, or to be honest, schedule him at all for any sort of extra activities until he can ask for it. I really don’t want to pay for it either if he’s not going to participate. His daycare, which we love, was offering a summer soccer camp. For $95 they get soccer instruction and get to play for A WHOLE WEEK. No, just no. That’s an airbrush tan and manicure for mommy. You get a lot of great things from sports but you don’t have to get them at 2 or 4 or 7.
@Lollipop,
How exactly did it help his ADHD? From what I can tell it didn’t. He seems to self medicate with alcohol and drugs. If he was then not driving (especially a giant gas guzzler) I’d say his self medicating would be a personal choice. But making the choice put others in harm-well he shouldn’t be in a pool, he should be in jail.
Anyways, I think parents who over schedule their kids will just look for any justification possible, even when it doesn’t exist anywhere but in their own minds, to try to justify it.
@Kathea
Good for you for thinking it through. We have the same discussions too and feel the same way! I hate the societal pressure that says spend all your money on your children instead of yourself (or even the family as a whole), even when you know that money is a waste! Doing nice things for yourself can help you be a better mom and at the same time allow your kid to be a kid!
@Art
That is just sad. My guess is it is probably all about the dad’s ego? But let me guess dad justifies it with meaningless words like “good sportsmanship”, “life skills”, “my kid is talented” etc?”
My kids liked organised activities at that age – both at 4 and when they were actual toddlers. They asked repeatedly to go off season and only rarely refused to go. When they refused to go too hard once, we did not went and then they cried 🙂 and there was no problem next time (it was predictable).
I am not saying it was necessary for them, but we could afford it and I highly doubt it damaged them as article seems to suggest. I highly doubt a bit of organized activity would destroy whatever at that age.
If the activity really discourages the kid so much, sure. But most clubs willing to deal with little ones adjust activities to their age.
“I only used him as an example (I will try to find a Prius driver next time) of someone who at a young age found sports to help with ADHD symptoms vs. medication. Perhaps he would have been an even BIGGER asshole, at an earlier age, had it not been for swimming….or made better CAR choices, right??”
You missed the point. The rant wasn’t directed at the car he was in, it was directed at the alcohol that was in him. He’s been arrested at least twice for DUI. It’s not clear that this is related to his athletic success, but it’s certainly not something that should be emulated.
Some of you seem to think the choice for preschoolers is between (a) pee wee sports and (b) “sand lot” sports with all the neighborhood kids. But what you’re forgetting is that many kids live in neighborhoods where there are few or no kids in their age group, usually zero who are allowed free outdoor play, and the nearest “sand lot” is a mile or more away. Even when I was a kid, 4yos did not play “sand lot” sports. But they did get to go play outside with kids, which is pretty rare in many neighborhoods today.
My kids’ real choices were (a) sit at home or (b) engage in an organized activity. In our case, their activities were at daycare, so they didn’t cut into “unorganized” time. But even if they didn’t, sitting at home (usually indoors since it gets dark early here) wouldn’t be such a great deal that a few hours a week of organized activities would ruin their childhood.
People keep using the term “over-scheduled.” I am curious how having a kid in one pee wee sport is “overscheduling” him. I mean, I’m a single mom, so I get that there are times when it’s hard to get from work to dinner to sports with kids who need a lot of help. I’ve been there. (BTW it can be just as hectic to take kids to the park or pool for some free play.) But many activities are scheduled at reasonable times, and many parents have help making everything happen. From the kids’ perspective, having a change of scene a couple evenings a week is not a bad thing. Being with people outside the family is not a bad thing, especially when there aren’t natural opportunities for this in the neighborhood.
I hear some sanctimonious comments above, “thanks for confirming that I’m better than other moms,” but I will consider the sources and let that pass. 🙂
I think Lenore used the term “toddler” because some people do actually fuss over whether their tot is doing it right at sports. I hope she wasn’t saying 4yo is a toddler.
But yeah, I’ve seen people call kids as old as 5 “toddlers” (especially in the context of tot-expected behavior like public tantrums). That bugs me. Well, then there are people who will say kids as old as 5/6 are “babies.” Recently a mom was criticizing a woman who felt a 10yo was too old for the ladies’ dressing room at the pool. She said how do you know it wasn’t just a really big 6yo, and 6yos are “just babies.” Um, no, when my daughters were 6yo they did not want to be all nakey with their classmates! Really??
4yos. I’ve known some still in diapers, and I’ve known one who could read, shop at the store, and cook a simple meal on her own. Quite a range.
I figured Lenore was using the word toddler because the author she is quoting calls 4 year olds toddlers. I was commenting more about Tovah Klein than Lenore. Klein appears to believe that children are toddlers until they are 5. Her book is called “How Toddlers Thrive” and then indicates that it is about kids 2-5.
I started playing organized sports around age 7, or second grade. At that age, we were old enough to learn the rules and follow them, and work together as a team. On nearby fields, they would have soccer and t-ball for the younger kids (5yo or so).
I remember my dad telling me it was absolutely ridiculous to put kids that age in real sports, and to prove it, we just watched for a while. The soccer game was just a giant blob of kids all chasing a ball around the field because nobody knew how to play a position, and the t-ball had at least one kid run down the third base line after hitting the ball. From an adult perspective, trying to get the really little kids to do sports must be like herding cats.
Are there some little kids who have sufficient physical, mental, and emotional maturity for organized sports? Sure. But most of them probably do not, especially if they are “indoor” kids who haven’t developed fine or gross motor skills (with the exception of video game thumbs and a swiping finger).
To me, little kids are babies until they turn 1/start walking, I take toddlers as translation of ‘peuters’, age 1-3 (there’s ‘young peuters’ and ‘old peuters’ within that category), and then when kids turn 4 they go to primary school* and are ‘kleuters’ until they go to first grade some time when they’re 6.
Anyway, over here a common thing is putting the children (especially when it’s more than 1) in swimming class when they’re 5 and only letting them choose another sport/hobby after they get their swimming diploma. Soccer doesn’t even seem to start until age 5 or 6.
*The consequence of this is that I always initially think preschoolers are 3, and then I remember yours are 4 🙂
“The consequence of this is that I always initially think preschoolers are 3, and then I remember yours are 4”
Kindergarten as part of public school is a relatively recent development here. When I was a child, it was extremely common to go straight to first grade with no “preschool” (a catchall term that described any sort of program designed to make children school-ready by the start of first-grade. I’d say that probably and 2/3 of my first-grade class came to school from an environment where mom was home with the children until they started first grade.
Another common scenario was in-home daycare, where the “daycare” was somebody’s home rather than a dedicated facility.
So back then, a “preschooler” might be as old as 6.
Now, in my state, we have public kindergarten for a half-day, so kids as young a 4 may be “in school”.
@Katie
Yes, that’s exactly what he does. He will not recognize any differences or allow for differences or individuality if his kids doesn’t want to do what HE thinks they should do. The couple of times the five year old threw a fit and flat out said “I’M NOT GOING!” and stayed home, the oldest boy, whose 13, will ride him constantly for two days until next practice, saying that “he let his team down” and that he should have gone. I came down hard on the 13 year old once for this, and he explained to him that missing a practice at age 5 doesn’t mean jack shit in terms of the grand scheme of things.
“The soccer game was just a giant blob of kids all chasing a ball around the field because nobody knew how to play a position, and the t-ball had at least one kid run down the third base line after hitting the ball. From an adult perspective, trying to get the really little kids to do sports must be like herding cats.”
We call that Magnaball, like the ball is a magnet and they all want it. It’s very normal to want the ball and play the whole game especially at young ages. And yes, playing *real* soccer games is ridiculous, these kids just naturally want to play. We did multiple small field games, 2 v 2 or 3 v 3, and let them have a ball on their foot for whatever short period you think they want to play, usually an hour. Kids at age 6 will tell you the games the love to play- Simon says, knock out, or relay races, and take back to their neighborhood friends to have fun. I love teaching and learning new games from kids and that’s pretty much all we did during practices. Simon Says toe touches (soccer toe to ball skill) is fun and then followed up with a Simon Says put your nose on the ball is funnier and probably ridiculous but that’s what they liked and organized or not, it is THEIR play time.
We all want them to go outside and play, freely, with other kids but it seems the childhood days of playing simple outdoor games is going extinct, replaced with Candy Crush and Minecraft, Obesity and Diabetes.
I don’t have the solution but also don’t think ALL organized sports for young children are evil, either.
They are not *herding cats*, these kids can read and use technology, but playing a basic soccer game is too advanced?
@Lollipoplover –
It sounds like what you’re describing is akin to a pickup league for adults. Not too much structure or hard-core competition, but everyone knows there’s a regular meetup at the park at 6 so you can play with your friends and maybe learn a few things.
I suspect we don’t have a common definition for the phrase, “herding cats.” It has nothing to do with the level of a child’s intelligence. Cats are generally independent creatures who almost never do the same thing at the same time. A human can make a group of sheep and perhaps even a group of dogs all behave the same way at the same time, but it generally won’t work with felines. “Herding cats” describes the frustration (and sometimes the futility) of managing a group of individuals who aren’t all on the same page.
Young children behave similarly to cats in many respects – they have shorter attention spans and lower impulse control than older kids, so they are less able to devote sustained attention to an activity and are more likely to go do their own thing instead.
@TeacherJR-
We have 2 cats that were adopted as feral kittens from behind a dumpster who act more like dogs. They know their names and come when we call them outdoors (they’re indoor/outdoor cats) and are outgoing and friendly with guests and children especially. Perhaps I don’t know how cats generally behav (I know they have a reputation as a**holes) since my frame of reference is different and I guess it is for young children, too. Most of the kids I’ve coached (and this is community, rec league sports- on their school fields with local kids) don’t fit into your definition of how they should act their age with attention and impulse control.
I’ve also seen much older kids with terrible impulse control.
Lots of adults, too.
@Lollipoplover –
Of course it is possible to find exceptions to every rule (or axiom). I’ve known dog-like cats, and cat-like dogs. I’ve encountered younger children who were excellent at devoting sustained interest to organized group activities, and older children who spent their time in the outfield looking for four-leaf clover rather than paying attention to the game. That being said, my comment addressed the characteristics of cats, dogs, sheep, and children *in general*, not in specific instances or about specific individuals.
If a kid wants to play an organized sport, and is developmentally ready to play one, I’m all for it. It sounds like the majority of the children you’ve coached fall into that category. However, I don’t agree with parents pushing kids into activities that are beyond their capabilities or interests. I wonder how many kids get shoved into pee-wee football or t-ball when they’d really be much happier playing catch with mom or dad at home.
@TeacherJR My observation was exactly opposite – little children tend to have herd tendency and when group does something, next kid does the same. They seemed to hapily do things they would normally avoid as members of group.
Classes for little ones I have seen worked quite well. Again, I am not saying they are necessary or have long term impact, but they were no trauma and no drama. Of course they were not doing the same things as school aged children and focus was different. But, they were not messy pack of disordered kids bored of too difficult activity.
@TeacherJR-
I agree 100% that children should not be pushed into sports or activities, ever. It’s not just organized sports, there’s dance, music lessons, scouts, etc. Don’t sign your kids up for activities unless they ask to do it. My mother gave me the best piece of advice, “Don’t try to make happy children happier.”
But kids today are savvy, even at young ages. A child who goes to daycare or preschool interacts with lots of other children and they DO discuss what they do outside of school. Kids talk!
If your child asks to try something, what does a “We don’t do organized sports before age 6” family do or say? No, you can’t try soccer because you’re too young? That part has me scratching my head because, why not? That was our reality…our kids asked to try things, lots of things. We limited to 1 per kid per season. A few were disasters (dance, music, violin) and lasted very briefly. A child saying, “I don’t want to go” is usually not interesting in that activity (get a clue). Hobbies/sports should enhance your life and be enjoyable activities.
“These activities can actually work against your child’s development as they take away from free play and figuring things out on their own (with adult support when needed) that is central to this stage of learning.”
Exactly.
Love this! I was in no hurry to start the sports thing. And by the time we tried it (1st grade?) he was still too distractable. Honestly, he never got it into and I never had to go to 3 practices plus a game each week (yay!). But I agree, 4 is too young. No one I grew up with joined a sport until jr. high at the very earliest!
Maybe we should promote informal gamesthat can be played with a baseball, basketball, or football./
FOTBALL: Touch, “Yards”
BASEBALL- 500, scrub, American Ping-Pong
BASKETBALL- Poison, Twenty-One
Why can’t you leave the poor kids alone and let them grow? It’s worked since the beginning of the human race. And long before. Don’t modern parents have a life of their own? Parents have too much time on their hands. Child rearing used to be natural. Now it’s as stressful as getting accepted at Harvard or Stanford. Poor little kiddies! Poor stressed out grown-ups!
I really don’t understand the tone of many of the comments. What happened to “parents know best”? It’s like everything else. If it works for us, it’s good. End of discussion.