Mom Rejects Plea Deal of “Just” 30 Days in Jail for Letting 4 y.o. Play 120 Feet From Home

“We have a CPS (Child Protective Service) case now and every time he’s not in my visual site we’re in violation”

So it’s illegal for her to sleep??!!

sue the neighbor, the police, CPS, and the DA for libel? Might take a big legal fund but probably the only way to stop this nonsense.

I live in Switzerland. Kindergarten starts at 4. After the first couple of weeks most kids walk by themselves. The ones who don’t have to cross big roads or live far away, but all kids are walking on their own by the time they are 6, or they can’t graduate from kindy.

I remember reading Beezus and Ramona, where Beezus has an art class and Ramona is supposed to play in the sandbox outside the community center while Beezus is in class. Ramona is 3. I’m pretty sure Beverly Cleary wrote from experience.

Can there be some map of the United States filled with red dots- a 911 Offender Registry- that alerts parents where all of these horrible neighbors live, so parents can AVOID living near these people? I think I have a right as a parent to avoid these menacing people for the sake of my children.

Can we come up with a list of most Unfriendly Towns in America for children who want to play without their parents getting arrested?

Silver Springs, Maryland (top of the list)
North Augusta, South Carolina
Westbrook, Maine
North Truro, Massachusetts
Sacramento, California…

“The neighbor who reported Hendren hoped the mom would just get a warning.”

THEN WHY NOT WARN HER YOURSELF. If you want to be a good neighbor and are concerned when you see a child, please put down your phone and stop the anonymous dialing and actually be a GOOD person and address the parent. A child can play in their own yard!

Go binge watch the Our Gang Little Rascals series if you have anxiety about children playing at young ages.

Suzanne- yes, most of what Beverly Cleary included was from her own viewpoint, if not necessarily personal experience (but in that story Ramona was 4.)

@andy — it wasn’t an enclosed playground (I believe they were referring to it being a gated complex), the video from the news story shows the layout of the playground. It’s a very nice one, but not gated and close to the parking lot, etc.

Of course I do not think this Mom should be in jail or charged with a crime. I’m not surprised that a neighbor may have been concerned. If I’m guessing he’s a very young 4 year old (based on his communication skills in the video).

I do give them credit (the ones who called) for speaking out and saying they did not want her to be charged. It’s been discussed many times that people are going to call 911 when there are other options. My kid had a minor collision with a car in a swimming pool parking lot when he was about 10 and the women called 911 before we even arrived because of the scratch on her car — talk about scaring a kid, he thought he was going to jail. Anyway, the police told her they weren’t going to show up for something like that (and the humorous footnote is that her husband wouldn’t either). The world is full of people that are very different. The authorities should have some reasonable standard of concern that is not as ridiculous as this.

I do feel terrible for the Mom, she seems very shaken. (I’m not sure how breastfeeding for 28 months or using cloth diapers is relevant though.)

I like your blog and big fan of your exposure of this nonsense but this hyperbole : ” No one calls the cops when a mom drives a kid to the grocery, even though the #1 way kids die is as car passengers.” Doesn’t help your case.

Carrie;

You might want to do at least some cursory research before you use words like “hyperbole.”
Just because you can’t believe it doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

Regarding causes of death. It has been repeatedly demonstrated that the single most dangerous thing most of us do every day is drive in a car.
As just one example, http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa-cause-of-death-by-age-and-gender

Traffic accidents are #5 overall, for kids under 14 the top three have to do with issues surrounding being born sick or damaged, and #4 is *all other injuries combined*
For ages 15-24, cars are #1, and for 25-34 they are #2
Cars are *dangerous*.

I teach second grade and several of my kids do not even know what city they live in let alone their address.

Not saying Mom should be prosecuted by any means but saying a 4yo knows where s/he lives is not a given.

Carrie, it’s not hyperbole to say that traveling by car is more dangerous than walking: it’s true. The point is that we all take calculated risks, with ourselves and with our loved ones, every day. Most parents who come here believe that the harm done by depriving children of opportunities to play outdoors independently and learn to navigate their neighborhoods and communities on their own is much greater than the very low risk of something bad happening to children when they’re out playing or walking around the neighborhood.

@carrie

It is not hyperbole, it speaks to the ridiculous extent that people go to when they “report children in danger.”

“As others have pointed out, if all the neighbor really wanted was for the mom to be warned about the danger, why couldn’t the neighbor just warn her him or herself?”

Because Mom wasn’t there to be warned?

Unlike others here, I don’t see the neighbor as having done anything wrong.
I think the problem (if there is one) lies with the police and the DA (if there was no actual neglect), or with the mother.(if there was).

Hey, maybe we should start calling 911 every time we see a kid in a car! Maybe that will be a wake-up call to the police.

WHY ARE YOU CALLING 911?!??! Walk twenty feet and have a conversation with the mother if you’re so concerned, you non-contributing, passive-aggressive ZERO.

@Carrie, how is that hyperbole? Unintentional injury is the most common cause of death in children, and automobile accidents are the most frequent cause of unintentional injury. What do you think is more likely to kill kids? https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001915.htm

“Not saying Mom should be prosecuted by any means but saying a 4yo knows where s/he lives is not a given.”

Pretty sure that if asked by a police officer this 4 year old could have pointed to his home a mere 40 yards away.

I am pretty sure that one of the reasons for living in a gated community with a playground was so that her child could go and play in that playground.

Just to note, that the articles indicate that the neighbors called CPS. It’s not even clear if she called 911 (despite what it written here).

I hate that these kinds of stories stifle my own maternal instincts.

My husband is running a five-mile race tomorrow completely enclosed within a park that is two blocks away, and I’d love to ask him to drop our 7.5-year-old at the playground en route and pick her up en route back. The playground is within the same park and is the same one she plays at a couple times a week for a couple or three hours. It’s completely familiar, and she could find her way home if necessary (not that she would leave the playground willingly — ha!). But I really worry about the what-ifs and the authorities.

So instead she can have an extra hour or hour and a half of screen time while I peel potatoes and dad is out racing. Is that really better for a child? It’s safer for us parents, that’s for sure, and if she were to become one of the U.S. childhood obesity statistics as a result of that kind of decision, the police wouldn’t even recognize that as endangering her welfare.

@E
“the dog owners were NOT very receptive to the criticism. It ended up on our neighborhood list where a dog owner wrote a diatribe to explain how it was pedestrians responsibility to know (or get trained) in how to deal with an approaching dog”

And that’s what leash laws and such have brought us to. People don’t even know how to hold out a hand and say “nice doggie” any more. They need “training” to do that.

@BL — the scenario was not a dog happily approaching a neighbor. It was a situation where someone was walking their OWN dog on a leash and an unleashed dog rushed the dog and engaged it with barking, snarling, bared teeth. The walkers and the dog on a leash don’t bear responsibility in this scenario to do anything. Yet, the discussion devolved into a lecture about appropriate behavior and how people who walk with walking sticks are creating a bigger risk, lol.

This is veering off topic, but I’d suggest that leash laws aren’t because people don’t know how to greet a happy dog, it has more to do with the less friendly dogs and dogs that roam crapping in other people’s yards.

My point is, there are always going to be neighborhood issues were someone may behave in a manner that is not universally embraced. An argument can be made that it applies to both sides of this story. I do believe that the people that called have no interest in the Mom being charged with a crime — because they said that. Just like I believe the Mom is a caring mom.

I hope the charges are dropped.

Goodness gracious, my 1st cousin who turns 49-years-old on December 8th, was constantly running around the neighborhood by himself when he was 4-years-old. We lived in a small town and in a very quiet neighborhood so my aunt used to bundle him up and set him loose! Today, he’s a happily married man and gainfully employed with two wonderful teenage daughters.

The problem is the old American mentality of “Well, it’s a different era nowadays”. It is? How different? Crime is down and so is child abduction by strangers which was extremely rare back then. So Americans still cling on to the mentality of “Well, we’ve evolved and are more concerned about our kids nowadays” WHICH IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM and is exactly the type of mentality that needs to be reversed! It is not based on rational statistics and laws need to be enacted protecting parents from this kind of nonsense! I’m becoming more unimpressed with Child Protective Services by the day because I think they’re part of the problem and not even remotely the solution.

I get that folks are pissed at the neighbors (mother and daughter) who called police, but I have a difficult time blaming them. If you watch the video interviews, they clearly aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer. They, like everyone else, are bombarded with the false “stranger danger” messages and have been for years. These two aren’t the type who would seek out the truth. If it’s on their favorite daytime talk show, it must be true. You and I know the true statistics, but sadly, most don’t.

However, I am pissed at the CPS folks, police, and prosecutors. We pay them to know better. Don’t sue the clueless neighbors – educate them. Sue the pants off the authorities.

The mother and daughter who phone the authorities are shown in the video clip saying something like, “Well, how would she feel if someone had taken him away?”

Um, ladies, someone DID take him away from his mother. YOU and the AUTHORITIES.

The boy was removed, albeit temporarily, from his mother’s home. If you don’t think that’s a greater trauma than playing outdoors, even if playing outdoors led to stitches or a broken arm, you’re failing to understand well-being for young children.

Cluck your tongue. Roll your eyes. Heck, go out and speak to the child and ask if he can take you to his mother, so you can unload your fears on her. But calling the authorities is not some gentle way to express your concern.

Calling the authorities is reserved for situations where a child is in IMMEDIATE DANGER OF SERIOUS HARM OR DEATH.

And even then, your first move is to attempt to help the child to safety yourself, if it’s safe for you to do so.

Here are some ideas of times when you WOULD call the authorities:

• Toddler wearing diaper and nothing else wandering around outside freezing to death on a cold winter’s day/night

• Preschool child with bruises and cigarette burns on his arms wearing soiled clothing for days on end

• 6-year-old child used to be seen playing outside in the yard nearly daily, now you haven’t seen for several days, when stepfather is asked where the child is, you get strange, contradictory answers that don’t make sense and you get a strong feeling something is “off.”

• 10-year-old child tells you they wish they could live with you instead, because their dad is hurting them

• 14-year-old confides that she’s been suffering sexual abuse at the hands of an older sibling for years, but can’t get her parents to believe her

And in the case of the older two examples, you might start by asking the kids if they would be OK with you calling someone to get help, and explain what might happen next.

Simply seeing a little kid who is well cared for outside without an adult present is not a reason to call in the “protective services.” It just isn’t. Under any circumstance in North America, unless it’s a kid playing in the middle of a highway.

To say your reasons for calling it in as a concern are about abduction by a stranger is plain old delusional. Let’s put stranger abduction where it belong — firmly in the column “freak accidents” — and move on with our lives.

“Sue the pants off the authorities.”

Most of them are immune from suit, so the only one likely to end up pantsless is you.

Four years old is not necessarily too young to be left outside without immediate supervision. Both of our kids were allowed outside and we would keep an eye on them for much of the time, but it was by no means constant. We never had a problem and they were able to stay within the defined area we gave them.

Thirty days in jail and probation is a terrible offer. I do a fair amount of criminal defense work and, unless she has record, this ‘deal’ stinks. Ideally, the prosecutor should drop the case, but if they won’t, they should offer something reasonable. If she takes this to trial, it is hard to say what would happen. A jury full of busybodies and nervous nellies may think she is a horrible parent.

“Unlike others here, I don’t see the neighbor as having done anything wrong.
I think the problem (if there is one) lies with the police and the DA (if there was no actual neglect), or with the mother.(if there was).”

The neighbor started the domino effect of involving authorities by calling 911 to avoid a social encounter with a neighbor. A 4 year-old playing in their own yard is NOT a police matter. No crime is being committed here and the police do not need to be involved. The neighbors are abusing emergency services when they make such calls. Had the 4 year-old been wandering at night, shoeless and crying, yes call the police. On a swing singing a song? No.

The police and CPS HAVE to follow up on these calls. Who comes out to investigate makes this a game of Russian Roulette of common sense. Many police officers will investigate and see no crime here. But when it comes down to it, the neighbor who called 911 bears the blame for this cascade of events because they started it. I don’t care if their intentions were good- they CHOSE not to get involved and instead involved the authorities. Maybe it’s not illegal and they can’t be sued for their actions, but there should be some consequences for their actions.

“I think getting CPS involved was the right thing (although I was only tangentially involved… the reporter was a woman who was home all day, with her 4 kids, and saw how often this other child was left to care for herself. The tipoff was that she kept trying to invite herself for meals.)”

In certain circumstances, contacting CPS right off that bat would be advisable. But in a situation like this, considering what happens when authorities get involved in families lives that they probably don’t need to (eg. we wouldn’t call the police to settle an argument between siblings, unless of course physical threat is apparent). If it were me being a “concerned neighbor” (though I wouldn’t be that concerned), I’d talk to the mother. Find out what her thought process was. Offer my assistance if I felt she needed it. Other than that, I’d let it be. Help keep an eye on the kid. You know, being a good neighbor. Not a nosey one. lol

That sad truth, is that many people don’t stop to think about consequence of their actions. They want to satiate their sanctimonious attitude, without ever thinking how the bigger picture will affect the family. It’s pretty evident these kinds of people have messed up good families’ lives. And ultimately put the children in worse position than they were prior to being “ratted out”. Kind of nullifies their “concerned neighbor” act. But what do they care? It’s not their kid. As long as they feel better about themselves and their decisions, whatever happens afterwards suddenly is no longer their concern.

Regarding this *village* (from the article):

“They talked to him and asked him to go home, but say he told them he wasn’t ready to stop playing yet. They eventually went back in their apartment and called child protective services.”

So these two strangers approach a child on a playground and tell him to do something and then called CPS when the child didn’t obey them. Why aren’t these strangers being charged with attempted luring. They just got all butthurt because he didn’t listen to them. How dare he! So they sought revenge. If anyone should be charged here, it should be these two sanctimonious neighbors. He is playing at a playground designed for children. What are these adults even doing at the playground if they don’t have small children?

@E:

“1) the people that reported her have made it clear they weren’t interested in this type of punishment, it seems they were surprised that this was the course of action”

Well, if they had actually thought before acting, they would have figured it out. After all, the story of the Meitivs was nationally known. Among other stories of families getting burned by CPS for non-valid reasons. And each time it was because of nosy, sanctimonious neighbor wanting to exert their “values” on others.

“2) you are comparing a time when most Moms were at home and most kids went to the same schools (thus on the same schedule). There was a different connection between the neighbors that does not really exist today in most places. Plus, why would an adult with a grown child be interested in watching someone else’s 4 year old while they played?”

Those are all CHOICES. The difference between now and then, are the choices we make. The world isn’t all that much different. But people’s mentalities have changed because they have been conditioned to. This is why were are were we are today when it comes to parenting. Think about it, only in the last 20 years have people started treating children differently than previous generations (going as far back as the dawn of man). 10000 years of successful child rearing can’t be wrong. After all, we went from a few thousand people, to 6.5 billion. And if she has her own children to watch, why was she so concerned about someone else’s? “Caring” is caring. You can’t just decide to care 50% of the time. And of those 50%, you can’t choose to care in varying levels. You either care or you don’t. And if you care, you would care enough to see the bigger picture of all the things before jumping to conclusions, calling authorities, then wiping your hands clean.

“You could also ask why didn’t the Mom go to her neighbors and tell them what she was allowing her kid to do, and if they saw him doing something concerning to let her know? I mean, the village isn’t just there for others to help her — she can participate in the village too.”

Does she have to? She trusts her parenting and her child enough to let him play outside on his own. Why does she need to inform her neighbors? The village isn’t their to raise others’ children, they are their to help when needed. If they aren’t asked, or it’s not a matter of safety (actual safety issues), or life and death, let it be. That’s how it’s always been done. It’s called respect. And the respectful thing for these nosy neighbors to have done, is to talk to their neighbor first. Find out the WHOLE story, not just what THEY want to believe and impose. THAT is the purpose of a “village”. And just because these neighbors are fearful, doesn’t mean everyone else has to be feel the same way.

“If this kid is 4, he could be “just” 4, or about to be 5 (I’d guess on the early side given what I saw). That’s a big difference in the development of a preschooler.”

Children start learning from the age of 1. Don’t assume because it’s a child, they are stupid. They are a lot smarter, observant and more resilient then many adults give them credit for. Plenty of hero kids in the media these days. That’s the great thing about nature, it makes children like sponges as they grow up. This is how children survive, but seeing, learning, experiencing, and trial and error. That is how we’ve all survived since the beginning of mankind.

It seems like there was another option, if the neighbor didn’t know who Tomahawk’s parents were or didn’t want to talk to them directly. Apartment complexes have managers…

Years ago, we lived on a dead end road off of a busy street. On the corner was an apartment complex. A little girl, I’m guessing three years old, was playing between parked cars, crouched behind the tires. (To be clear, this was on the gravel shoulder, not in parking lot.) I pulled over, tried to talk to the little girl, who didn’t speak English, then went looking for the manger’s office. Never did find her parents, but did find a neighbor who knew her and took care of the situation. No police, no child protective services, and the little girl didn’t play in the road anymore. If she’d been on a playground, or on the sidewalk, I would’ve minded my own business.

Go ahead and berate me, but I’d call CPS on the mom for her choice of name. Tomahawk? Really? Did we run out of names like bill and Steve?

“Very true. But that is a CHOICE people are making these days.”

People are choosing to have neighbors that come and go?

She’s a hero!

She needs a website where people can donate to help her cause. She’s taking action. Her bravery is commendable!

Why would anyone call 911 to report a 4 year old playing 120 away from home? Why don’t they express they’re concerned to the mother and not to the police?

Answer

This requires social skills. We’ve seen 30 years of decay of child freedom. They lost more then freedom. They lost the opportunity to develop social skills.

Warren, I disagree with you that the police have to “do something” simply because CPS called them. If after an investigation, they determine that a crime has not been committed, they do not have to do anything except leave. They must have probable cause to make an arrest and a call from CPS does not automatically give it to them.

@James:

“People are choosing to have neighbors that come and go?”

No. My reply was in reference to the other part of yours:

“Today, people tend to not know their neighbors very well, or at all.”

THAT is a choice they make. Whether they are planning on staying a few months, or indefinitely, why wouldn’t anyone want to get to know each neighbor? Unless your an introvert, or trying to hide from someone or something. Either way, it’s still a choice. Pretty much everything we do in life is our choice.

I have people coming and going in my building, but I always make a point to introduce myself, and talk to them while waiting for the elevator. That’s my choice because I want to know my neighbors. For various reasons. But mostly because I’m just a friendly guy. And generally give people the benefit of the doubt, and certain level or respect and trust. The rest is up to them, and I react accordingly. 😉

I know the “free-range dogs” discussion is rather off-topic, but I’d like to chime in and say that I find the stray dogs we sometimes encounter pretty easy to deal with compared to the pit bulls some people in our neighborhood love keeping chained out in their yards in all kinds of weather. It seems like the pit bulls I see have been both BRED, and after birth, RAISED to be aggressive…and also that they invariably yank and yank at their chains until they break them, and just love to rush and intimidate anyone walking down the street. Now, neither my loved ones nor I have been mauled thus far, but when we recently had a neighbor who essentially shut the door in my face when I tried to talk with her about how my 10-year-old walks to and from school on her own and it was completely unacceptable for my child to EVER have to deal with an angry pit bull…

Well, let’s just say that my husband and I had no problem with reporting that. Sadly, they pay less attention to dog reports. They’ll just warn the owner repeatedly and won’t do anything more unless they themselves see the animal out running loose, or you manage to get it on video, or someone does actually get mauled by the dog. I guess there are too many vindictive neighbors out there just itching to make up a story that’ll get someone’s dog put down?

But…if we’re going to compare free-range kids to free-range dogs, then I’ll just say that if I see a friendly, happy dog out running the neighborhood, I’m happy to mind my own business, and that’s my approach with kids, too. However, If a child of any age came rushing at me threatening to harm me, and the parents shut the door in my face when I tried to tell them about it, then I’d be totally within my rights to call the police — and seriously, if the parents are that unconcerned about their child’s behavior, that is one of the extremely rare cases where I believe that a child might be better off in state care. Strangely, though, while I’ve been in a few different situations where I felt like a dog might be dangerous, I simply haven’t felt that threatened by a child, even a poorly behaved one.

“THAT is a choice they make. Whether they are planning on staying a few months, or indefinitely, why wouldn’t anyone want to get to know each neighbor? Unless your an introvert, or trying to hide from someone or something. Either way, it’s still a choice. Pretty much everything we do in life is our choice.”

Or if THEY’RE an introvert (not that there’s anything wrong with that) they may not want to get to know you. Not a choice you get to make.

It’s not just kids that go outside less frequently… adults don’t, either. You can go up the street, introducing yourself to everyone who lives on it… but you’re likely to be treated like a salesman or a religious nut if you do. Those are OTHER PEOPLES’ choice.

In my personal opinion, 4 years old is just a tiny bit too young to be playing outside by yourself. If this kid falls in the playground, he has no experience to deal with it himself.
That said, if there is someone who called 911, clearly SOMEONE is looking after him, so that is the only danger dealt with. In a gated apartment, there is no risk of the kid running off or going missing.

It would not be my decision, but it is definitely not criminal.
Even if it was somehow illegal, a fine should suffice.
Jail should only be for serious offenses.

“The alternative phrase for “Dog running loose” is “Target Practice”

And the alternative phrase for a child playing alone is a 911 call?

We foster dogs. I usually get the “misfit” dogs who need small training corrections. A few years ago we fostered a dog who went through over 4 homes and was returned repeatedly to the rescue. He was a former hunting dog and a runner. We had him 1 week before his first escape from our fenced yard. He never went near people or other dogs, he just ran to the wild spaces and chased birds, squirrels, and the occasional rabbit. He was too fast to catch but always came home. He is the most gentle creature and not a danger to anyone.

What scares me most is the “Target Practice” idiots of the world. Instead, I met many neighbors who helped me find my dog without judgement. There are still so many good people in this world. We reinforced our fence but he still had such a strong drive to escape that he tunneled under it or headbutted it to break the wood! Eventually, we added an electric fence but the urge for him to chase critters is sometimes too strong and he still gets out on occasion. We adopted this *problem* dog to join our island of misfit dogs in our family (they all have something wrong with them). I have a new appreciation for parents of autistic children who are prone to wandering- I feel your pain. Fortunately, we have fantastic neighbors who help us out and know his story.

“Target Practice”?
You make me sick.

” In a gated apartment, there is no risk of the kid running off or going missing.”

People have gone missing from inside their own houses. All kinds of terrible, horrible, no-good things can happen, regardless of where you are.

“@James, a truly concerned person could ask, “Where is your mom?” and after the child points in the direction of the apartment, knock on doors until finding the mom and talk with her about it”

First off, you don’t know WHY the child being unattended was of concern, and insist on supplying your own opinion, sans facts.

Then, you assume that A) the kid was actually helpful in any way, and B) that anyone should feel a need to take on looking after someone else’s kid. Nope. We pay taxes to have people to look into that. A truly concerned person might well have an urgent need to be somewhere else doing something else.

” they demonstrated their lack of social skills by deciding that this was a matter for the law.”
It’s perhaps worth noticing that everyone else who has a detailed knowledge of the events thought so, too. the CPS workers, the police, the prosecutor… all thought that there was a criminal act here. Maybe they’re all right, and in THIS case, the child expanding his borders should have been supervised.

@James: “Then, you assume that A) the kid was actually helpful in any way, and B) that anyone should feel a need to take on looking after someone else’s kid.”

No, I don’t assume any of that. If he’d opted not to answer me, I’d have gone back to minding my own business, because I assume that a child who needs my help will actually talk to me. That’s based on my previous experience as an early childhood teacher and also on my current experience as a parent.

And no, I don’t feel compelled to look after anyone else’s kid just because I see a child not being parented in the same way I parent my own kids. Sure, I’d scoop a toddler out of the middle of a busy intersection, but short of something that extreme, while I don’t wish anyone else’s child ill, I’m just not all that wrapped up in other people’s kids.

I’m with those who want to know what we can do to support this mother. It’s great that Lenore shares stories and instances where things are going awry, to bring attention to our cultural shift away from and bias against allowing children independence and being able, as parents, to make reasonable risk assessments and determinations about what freedoms and responsibilities our children are ready for, without fear of repercussion.

But it would be so much better if we could mobilize together as a community to fight injustices like this, and to assist parents who are butting heads with unreasonably intrusive, over-reaching, fear-driven authorities. Let us support one another! How can we do that?

Sorry to get sidetracked into the dog issue, but the problem with that is people breeding and buying “tough-looking” dogs to show off how tough they supposedly are. End result: kids (and adults, though adults usually not fatally) getting attacked by dogs that have been inbred from strains originally selectively bred for fighting. Other end result: pounds and shelters full of dogs which, through no moral fault of their own, do not have personalities suited to being pets.

@E Just for the record, I do not mind existence of CPS and other agencies. I think that some children have right to not be abused and some are. These are situations in which it is fine to use those blunt punishing tools. Four years old playing 120 feet from home is very clearly not such situation.

Andy – Many people with perfectly fine IQs believe that the police, cps, etc will do “good” rather than penalize. I consider most people who regularly post here intelligent and yet many posts are replete with the notion that the police should do something other than arrest. In fact, it is human nature. We generally consider ourselves rational and expect people to act in accordance with our rational beliefs.

Most people have no negative contact with cps or the police and do not follow Free Range Kids to know the latest goings on. They view these organizations as to what they expect them to do according to their own rationale, which is nothe always how they really operate.

“Many people with perfectly fine IQs believe that the police, cps, etc will do “good” rather than penalize.”

Perhaps believing this because of their own experience(s), which shows it to be true at least part of the time.

Is the notion that different people may have different experiences when dealing with the authorities that hard to internalize?

I would suspect that Donna’s basis for forming an opinion on how the police will “help” is based on a larger sample than what most people have. I tend to agree with her. Calling the police in a non-emergency is a huge risk. You have no idea how they will react and once they are involved it isn’t as if you can just opt out if you don’t want the help.

I can say that most of my personal interactions with police have been pleasant, but I have had enough clients with very negative reactions when they called the police to intervene in a non-emergency that I would be very cautious in calling them for something that may be better handled by other means.

When my kids were 3 and 5 we were skiing. My 5 yr old was a quite competent skier, the 3 yr old was just learning. My older son turned down a run the younger one wouldn’t be able to manage and was about 15 ft down before I could stop him. I was stuck. It would have been very difficult for the 5 yr old to climb back up, and I couldn’t leave the younger one. So I told the older one to ski down and wait at the base by the staff who scanned the tickets until we could make it down. When we finally made it down, my son was waiting, talking to staff about skiing.

While I was worried, being a friendly, capable kid meant he could ask for help if he needed it. His skills were developed enough to handle the situation.

Kids that have been raised over-protected and fearful of strangers don’t develop those skills.

Okay James, I’ve just read the article and watched the video on Fox40, and the women who called quite clearly stated that their concern was that he was playing outside alone and “what if” he’d been kidnapped and was on Amber Alert? Nothing was said about him actually doing anything concerning. They simply saw it as concerning for a small child to be having a good time without his mother in sight, because of their seeming belief that there’s a kidnapper lurking behind every bush.

As far as the poster who saw it as irrelevant that the mother breastfed and cloth diapered — maybe it has no bearing on the case, but she’s feeling attacked as a mother and feels a need to emphasize that she’s not just some lax, detached mom who doesn’t even pay attention or care about her child.

Understood SteveS; it just seemed to me that saying “calling the police in a non-emergency is a huge risk” was a pretty broad statement.

@Donna I do not expect police to arrest at every turn, they are not even allowed to. They can arrest only under certain conditions e.g., risk you run away, you pose danger, etc. However, when cop tells me nicely what to do, I am expected to do it because he has that special authority from being a cop. (Neighborhood called cps not cops directly, but I will continue with that hypothetical.)

It does not matter all that much whether individual cop is “good”. What matters is that civilian can not tell him to “f*** off” and disobey the way civilian legally can to random neighborhoods.

When the definition of cop “doing good” is “make a person that disagrees with me to do what I want”, then it is either a.) the person is doing something really illegal and cops job is to stop it or b.) I am asking cop to abuse his authority to take my side in a conflict and it is cops duty to refuse. Neighborhood intention was the latter and I do not find it good thing at all.

When you have a friend who is a cop and you are using him this way, we call it corruption – and yes it happens in practice and is bad thing to happen. When he does that just because one of you is more charismatic or cop personally agree with his opinions, then it is not all that much better. I find this more dangerous then whatever standard local CPS have for when the child can be alone on playground.That is at least clear rule. Nobody wants neighborhoods to call cops to take their sides in disagreements with him. Non corrupt law enforcement that does not uses its authority in non-law related matters is preferable. (I am not saying it is reality in general, but my strong preference. )

@Warren: There are laws that require people to obey the orders of a police officer. If you think the officer has no right to issue the order, obey it and settle it in court, unless he orders you to do something illegal.

Andy – I’m not really sure what your point is. All I was saying is that perfectly intelligent people seem to have the view that police officers, cps, etc exist to help rather than simply act punitively. And my guess, based on stories from older family members and friends, that this was true in bygone eras. Many act on that notion and are not anticipating arrest/removal when they call these agencies. They simply want help solving a problem that they don’t think they can solve themselves. They are misguided but not malicious.

And don’t forget 3 year-olds….

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brielle-science-ellen-degeneres_56546cc2e4b0d4093a5913d1?ir=Technology&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000042

While there are some police officers that appear to understand the difference between lawful and unlawful commands, there are some that do not.

@Donna I guess the difference is mostly in different idea about what is proper use of police, its role in society and when it should not intervene at all – whether they end up acting punitively or in nicer manner. I would not expect them to arrest people instantly or anything big like that, but I find using them to solve non-criminal/law problems wrong thing to do (ethically wrong).

There was never bygone era when police would be smiling helpful guys you routinely call to solve non-criminal matters around here. If you call them, it means you think the law was broken and you expect them to come as cops not as your friend to settle dispute.

I would expect them to be grumpy for wasting their time or act in a way that discourages that sort of thing. If they would want retaliate, I would expect them look hard to find something to fine you, not to arrest.

James, I would tend to agree that judges tend to give the police a great deal of leeway when it comes to use of force and getting people to comply. That being said, things are changing. More people are recording their interactions with police and making it so that a judge or jury isn’t going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Your suppose to “watch” your kids especially a 4 year who can’t make the right decisions. Don’t hide under the new age hooey “free range parenting”. Your an idiot. You should not be allowed to procreate. Sorry. 4 years is too young. If you don’t have enough common sense to realize that well then someone should call the cops on you.

I would recommend some balance from the mother, CPS, nieghbors, law enforcement in that area immediately before one child turns an adult and end up on welfare, jail, depresion, or other health issues!

What a fucking joke, these cops are out of control, and also whats up with this loser neighbor!

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The more of these stories that I read, the more enraged I become. I, too, have fallen victim to these kinds of acts. I recall playing outside as a toddler both with my siblings and alone. I discovered salamanders and slugs. I learned how to balance on fences and climb trees. As children, we created a world of our own full of imagination and secret forts. We drank from hoses when we got thirsty, sat under trees when we got hot;the answers to askall of life’s mysteries throughout the maze that was our neighborhood. Back then, the village raised the children. What a great time it was to be a kid. When, exactly, did that change and why then didn’t we all get the memo.