Mom Who Won’t Vaccinate is Mad the School Is Sending Her Child Home

Can’t the school give the mom a form to sign saying something like, “I understand my daughter may get chicken pox and I do not hold the school responsible”?

Tell you child that although there are not usually severe or long lasting side effects from chicken pox, it can be painful and she will have a much greater chance of getting shingles later in life (which can have much more serious side effects) but that’s OK with you. Because hey, you have your beliefs. And that trumps common sense.

Yes, the child should be allowed to go to school if that’s what the parent wants. Make her sign something that says she won’t hold the school liable and have it notarized.

I’m not really compelled to feel sorry for the writer, though, because she’s made a personal choice about whether or not her children will be vaccinated, and choices come with consequences. I don’t necessarily agree with the consequence she’s facing, but that doesn’t make me feel sorry for her.

The middle paragraph sounds very whiny. She doesn’t know what to tell people when they notice her kid is not in school? How about, “I have chosen not to have her vaccinated and chickenpox is going around her school, so I have been asked to keep her home for now.” There. Now was that so hard? Is she ashamed to tell people, or does she fear the disapproval she will probably encounter when she does? Again, choices have consequences. Deal with it.

Or she could state that it’s a “personal reason”. She’s under no obligation to tell anybody anything.

So what I see here is someone who has made a personal choice based on religious beliefs, but is playing the victim now that her choice has had an undesirable consequence.

Also came to comment that you should tell her that you are an idiot. But maybe a better answer is to tell her that she is home because of a selfish and irrational choice that you made, please don’t blame the school for a policy that protects healthy students. If she is old enough, maybe she use the time away from school to do a little research about vaccination and talk some sense into you.

By the way, vaccines are not always effective, so an unvaccinated child is a risk to a vaccinated child.

Ignoring the potential lawsuit issue (which I’m not in a position to comment on), the public health concern is “herd immunity”.

While the child in question may be old enough that chicken pox isn’t a serious health issue for them, there *are* children in the community who are too young to get vaccinated or who have compromised immune systems. *Those* children rely on the vast majority of people being immunized against things like chicken pox or rubella to reduce the likelyhood that they themselves may be exposed to a potentially life threatening illness.

The parent in question has chosen not to allow her child to be immunized. The consequence of this is that her child is a potential vector for the infection to spread to more vulnerable children.

To prevent this, the school/public health authorities may be choosing to ensure that the kids who are known to be potential vectors for a larger spread of the disease are not being exposed, and so are proactively isolating them.

There are social consequences to refusing immunizations.

Religious or not, by not vaccinating her child she’s compromising everyone’s herd immunity, and the school is protecting those people as much as her child.

There are people with compromised immune systems, people too old or too young for a vaccine, and people for whom the vaccine didn’t stick; keeping anyone sick away from them is plain common sense. An unvaccinated child is a danger to all of them, due to the ease with which they can carry diseases. The school is protecting them as much as her child.

And yes, the chicken pox only happens once in your life. Which is why I became a fluke and got it in first grade and fourth grade (The first time when my sister got it, the second time when 3/4 of my class had it).

Whatever the reasons, an unvaccinated child is a public health risk for epidemics. They’re doing their job to all the children at the school by not letting that child come in.

This is not a free-range issue. There is nothing free-range about exposing your child to a dangerous (if frequently non-fatal) contagion.

In 100 years, when shingles is largely a thing of the past, people will wonder why anyone refused to have their children vaccinated.

She knows the rules. The rules are if you’re not vaccinated, you have to stay home 20 days after an infection is in the school. Don’t like it? Get vaccinated.

She should tell her child she’s anti-science, anti-public health, and anti-healthy kid. She should tell her child that she’s smarter than all the scientists, doctors, and public health officials. She should tell her child that all those children that didn’t get polio, small pox, et-al should have contracted those diseases. She should tell her child that she’s OK with her coming down with some easily preventable disease.

Not vaccinating one’s child is not free-range. It’s ignorance.

I always assumed that people who don’t want the chicken pox vaccine want their children to acquire the disease in the community to obtain “natural immunity”, so what’s the problem? Call up the mom of the kid with the pox and have a chicken pox party! That’s what we did when we were kids. We all had it at the same time. I’m sure it was hell for our mothers but then it was over and ta-da, we’re all immune. What’s the problem here? She doesn’t want her kid vaccinated AND she doesn’t want her to catch it? Ridiculous.

@Tim, Really?! Chicken pox is a rash. It itches. Shingles? Those are painful.
1. Yes, getting chicken pox allows for the possibility of shingles later on in life. Shingles suck, but are not going to kill you unless you have prior conditions (like in the elderly).
2.The majority of kids who get the chicken pox vaccine GET the chicken pox. But it doesn’t cause immunity.
3. Chicken pox LATER in life, when your vaccine wears off is going to be problematic. You have a higher chance of having complications.

Really. You know why people don’t want to deal with chicken pox? Because you actually have to take time off to deal with your kid. Heaven forbid you use your sick time to stay home. Yeah, yeah: “But what if you can’t take time off?” Then you deal. Surely you don’t walk around with no backup plan for sickness.

I’ve taken my kids to friends houses to get the chicken pox. Remember ‘pox parties’ in the 80’s?!

Chickenpox is extremely contagious, and you only show symptoms 4 days or so after starting to be infectious to others. So the school may gain nothing by this policy unless they have a member of staff who is unvaccinated and cannot be vaccinated. It’s quite a serious disease in adults, but fairly minor in children.

In the UK, where nobody gets the chickenpox vaccine as standard, kids who are ill have to be off school, but others can go to school. A fair number will have had the disease before they went to school, actually, as it goes around nurseries fairly regularly. Pretty much anyone who works with kids has had it, so it’s not a staff problem.

H

Every parent has the right to determine whether or not their child is vaccinated. But to make that choice based on ignorance is a national/world heath issue. Folks even in this thread have said things that demonstrate their belief that many of the things that we vaccinate against now won’t kill the kids, and state that they were fine when they had it as kids. That is a completely ignorant statement. Let’s just focus on one of the diseases: Measles. My sister almost died of measles before the days of vaccines. I personally know two people who are deaf as a result of their mother having measles while they were pregnant. The World Health Organization states that:

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2012, there were 122 000 measles deaths globally — about 330 deaths every day or 14 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 78% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2012 worldwide.
In 2012, about 84% of the world’s children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services — up from 72% in 2000.
Since 2000, more than 1 billion children in high risk countries were vaccinated against the disease through mass vaccination campaigns ― about 145 million of them in 2012.

And yet we continue to treat measles as if it’s no big deal.

While chickenpox does not have the same risks as measles, I still continue to be disturbed by the increase in these preventable illnesses and the severe complications and deaths among those who choose not to be vaccinated — and even more tragically, among those who for health reasons cannot be vaccinated or are too young for those vaccinations.

Herd immunity is important.

Maybe there should be separate “plague ship” schools for those who refuse vaccination. Teachers can be issued hazmat gear if necessary. Don’t put my kid at risk because you take your health advice from kooks.

I think the real problem here is that the school is trying to protect the unvaccinated child from getting the disease, when the parent clearly wants her child to get the disease (it is the only other way to confer immunity). This just seems backwards to me. There are always children who cannot receive vaccinations or who have not yet been vaccinated for various reasons that have no choice. These are the ones who must be protected by keeping intentionally unvaccinated children out of public schools. I believe in freedom and personal choice and responsibility, and no one should be forced to vaccinate their children if they do not want to. But neither should they send their kids to public school if that is their choice.

I am 41 years old and there was no chickenpox vaccine when I was young. I got chickenpox like everyone else. 108 degree fever, horrible pain and other discomfort, two weeks of missed school and scarring are NOT things I want my children to experience, even if the long-term dangers are low. I had a brother with measles, and that was terrible to watch, but luckily I was vaccinated. I watched a friend get mumps, and again I was thankful to be vaccinated. Folks, whether or not these diseases kill is not what is most important. These diseases torture children, and just because we went through it as kids doesn’t mean our children have to. If someone wants to be uneducated about vaccines, that’s their choice, but that doesn’t give them a right to put everyone else at risk.

Write, I was just thinking about free range and vaccines this morning. I think 20 days is a little much, but if she chooses not to protect her child against this disease, her child is very likely to contact it and pass it on to other children for whom it may not prove benign.

I for one don’t believe in vaccines. The decline of disease over the past century is due to better health and sanitary conditions. At the turn of the century they pumped raw waste into the streets, streams and rivers. Now we know better. I haven’t been vaccinated against anything in a quarter century and have never come down with vaccine “preventable” disease save Chicken Pox as a baby. My father lived to 87 and had one vaccine in his life back in WWII. Herd immunity is an unprovable myth. Forcing medical procedures that can kill you or damage you permanently because someone else believes they might get something if you don’t do it is unethical and against Nuremberg principles.

That being said, I feel for the mother. Our school warned us of the same thing should someone get sick. We’ll just home school our son if it happens. What needs to be done is people need to push back against these medieval rules and laws.

@Rick, you realize that 1 person’s experience doesn’t counter science and statistics right? Isn’t that like saying “My Grandfather smoked and lived until 80 so smoking isn’t bad for you”? Yes, that’s an extreme example, but it’s the same type of thinking.

I’m on the fence about the vaccination issue, but I’m shocked at how many MORE vaccines kids have to get these days, than I got in my youth (which wasn’t that long ago–I was born in 1984). Anyway, the thing that sticks out to me here is, it’s chicken pox. The chicken pox vaccine wasn’t available where I’m from (Ontario, Canada, same as Warren) until I was around twelve years old. I got chicken pox when I was nine, and it wasn’t viewed back then as the crisis that people think it is now–it was just an itchy rite-of-passage that came with a week off of school. I remember a lot of calamine lotion, oatmeal baths, and Leave It To Beaver reruns. I was self-conscious about how I looked (because of all the spots), and I tried (not always successfully) to resist the urge to scratch…..but my very itchiest spot was right between my eyes, so I have a scar there to this day. Anyway, as you can see, I survived the experience of chicken pox relatively unscathed. My brother, unfortunately, had it THREE times (I think in the same year–I was nine, and he was six), but he also grew up to be perfectly healthy. However, most people only got chicken pox once, and if you’d had chicken pox, you were considered more or less “immune” from getting it again. When the chicken pox vaccine came out, if I remember correctly, it was an either/or thing–if you’d had chicken pox, OR been vaccinated, you were considered to be safe. I think the vaccine was sort of a good thing, because it was a good option for the worried parents who, in years past, tried to get their kids exposed (and consequently immune) to the virus early through “chicken pox parties,” because it’s apparently worse the older you get it (and it can manifest as shingles in adulthood), but my parents didn’t do that–they just let matters take their course, figuring that my brother and I would get it sooner or later, since we attended public school and interacted with other kids. Also, I’m not even sure how much truth there is in the belief that chicken pox is necessarily always worse if you get it older. I had it at an older age than my brother did, and I was told that my case was relatively mild compared to his. I’m sure that if we hadn’t had chicken pox by, say, puberty, our parents would have consulted our family doctor, but that didn’t happen. I’m also fairly sure that our doctor didn’t condone “chicken pox parties” in the pre-vaccine years either–she was probably the one who advised just letting it happen. She’s retired now, but I remember her as being a good doctor. I have to wonder, though, if she could get away with practicing medicine now the way she did in the 80’s and 90’s when I was growing up. With so many people worrying and nit-picking over every tiny aspect of their children’s development, I have a feeling she’d either have almost no patients, or she’d have a huge following of Free-Range families, and be considered a sort of “renegade” in the medical profession.

Anyway, back to my main point–if it was any other disease besides chicken pox, I think the school would have a stronger leg to stand on. Since it’s just chicken pox, and they’re asking the girl to be out of school for 20 days. Even 20 calendar days is ridiculous, because that’s almost three times as long as a typical case of chicken pox. Starting the countdown all over again if another kid gets it is ridiculous too, because if just a handful of kids get it, then the letter writer’s daughter could miss most of kindergarten. If the girl was in a later grade, this could set her back a great deal academically. The other thing the school seems to have missed is, chicken pox is at its most contagious BEFORE the symptoms appear, so if little Susie catches chicken pox from little Joey, nobody would have any way of preventing that, because she would have caught it from him when he was at school/Scouts/soccer/swimming/whatever, and feeling perfectly healthy. Nobody would even be able to figure out what happened before seeing both children get sick, one after the other, at which point Susie might have unknowingly infected another child during the contagious pre-chicken-pox phase. So, knowing that, it appears that this school is engaging in a game of “security theatre,” and bullying the anti-vax families into bending to their will, with “Well, you CAN send your child to school unvaccinated, but we’ll treat them like lepers just because we can.”

vaccination works best if the whole population is vaccinated. Vaccinations never fully prevent catching the disease and if a part of the population isn’t vacinated it can cause a threat to the vaccinated poppulation. That could be the reason to ask her to stay home. It will shorten the actual length of the outbreak by removing those who are in most danger of catching and transmitting it.. Besides chickenpox might not be dangerous for kids but it is very serious for adults, preagnant women and elderly your kid comes in contact with during the period that she is infectious. And it is very infectious. So I agree with the schoolboard and I dont understand the none vaccination craze and think its dangerous.

From the CDC website:
“Before there was a vaccine, chickenpox was common in the United States. Each year, about 4 million people got chickenpox. Between 10,500 and 13,000 people were hospitalized, and 100 to 150 people died because of chickenpox.”

Since the introduction of the vaccine, deaths in children/adolescents from chickenpox have been reduced 97%!!!!

What cracks me up, is that the same people who don’t take 100+ deaths a year from chicken pox seriously, are freaked out about the possibility of a stranger abducting their child. The number stranger abductions each year is about the same number: 115.

@Stephanie The CDC is trying to imply that the reduction was due to the vaccine. Again, unprovable. It’s taking credit for the receding tide because you’re bailing the ocean.

First of all, chicken pox can be deadly. True, dying is rare, but serious complications are less so: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/the_kids/2013/11/chickenpox_vaccine_is_it_really_necessary.html

Second, many people cannot get vaccinated and rely on herd immunity, so you endanger them when you ignorantly refuse the vaccine.

Third, no vaccine is 100%, so when you weaken herd immunity, you also endanger people who are vaccinated. They are much less likely to get sick, but they don’t have complete forever immunity, especially not if there’s a lot of virus around to resist.

Fourth, every time a vaccine spreads to a new person, it gets a chance to mutate into something that is more deadly. Why give it that chance?

I don’t have any sympathy for this mom. She stupidly chose to endanger her child and others, and now she doesn’t like the consequences. Wah. She should instead be grateful that the consequences haven’t been more serious, at least not yet.

Without restating what many others have said, I agree that unvaccinated children should be required to stay home to protect others who have been vaccinated and may have other health issues which could result in very serious consequences.

While parents may have the right to choose not to vaccinate, that does not free them from consequences of that choice.

As an alternative, the parent could choose to expose her child to chicken pox in order to develop natural immunity. Then the lack of vaccination would not be an issue in the future.

The irony here is that when people are vaccinated with live virus vaccines, they shed the virus and whoever is around them is exposed. Yet schools do not notify parents that their child is being exposed to viruses by their classmates shedding. More on vaccines and virus shedding can be read here http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/24/secondary-transmission-%EF%BB%BFthe-short-and-sweet-about-live-virus-vaccine-shedding

There is a much larger conversation to be had about chickenpox. The UK sees it as a valuable childhood illness, that protects the population and does less harm in the long run. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2563790/

This used to be embraced in the US, until Merck developed a vaccine for Chickenpox and one for Shingles. Double profit bang for the buck, for one creates a need for the other.

When communities have regular outbreaks of chickenpox, the adults in the community who had chicken pox infections as children receive a sort of passive booster through exposure, they get a boost of resistance to shingles.

When did Chicken Pox become something to fear? When a vaccine was made available. If you are old enough to remember, the chicken pox vaccine was introduced as a “convenience” vaccine to make it easier on parents who would otherwise have to take time off from work to care for their child and a “convenience” for the employer who would not have to endure the parents absence.

I see your point, but what this school policy may be smart for reasons other than just protecting the individual kid from getting chicken pox. If she is in one of those districts where 1/3 of people are claiming religious exemption from vaccines, this could be meant to get people to question their “faith” or re-examine their priorities. Yes, we all got chicken pox and it wasn’t that big a deal, but remember school when we ALL had chicken pox? When it went through my elementary in 1972, approximately 1/3 of the kids were out in some grades and it went on for at least 5 weeks. THAT was a major disruption to everyone’s education. (She should take her kid over and get her exposed to chicken pox now and get it over with. In my family the severity of the disease seemed to increase with age. In kindergarten she should be able to get it and get it over with in a couple of weeks. Or get the stupid shot.

” Schools do not have the right to override a doctor’s treatment or non treatment of a patient. ”

Which is not what they’re doing — they’re simply setting the terms for who is allowed to attend. They’re not dragging her into the doctor’s office or spiking her food with the vaccine.

However, they should be providing home-based instruction to this kid.

We actually exempt from the chicken pox vaccine for some damned good, science-based reasons. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2563790/

I’m not in a position to complain to the school, since I’m well aware of my state’s law. But alas, I can never live in the beautiful state of New York because its vaccine laws don’t give me this option. There, you have to take all vaccines or none and all but write a high school essay about your religious beliefs. And that’s the rub because I want to vaccinate for the other stuff.

Anyway, if my children haven’t had chicken pox by early adolescence, they will be vaccinated then because this illness is a lot more dangerous after childhood.

This vaccine markets itself really well to our hyper-protective, anti-free-range culture: “Oh my God!!! My children will DIE of chicken pox!!!” I understand that there are immunocompromised people out there, but they are honestly in danger of common colds, too, and have to take precautions regardless of whether people around them are vaccinated.

as a parent who has used exemptions for vaccines in the public schools for 14 years now I have been “prepared” for the scenario you are in. Fortunately I am still waiting. I cannot offer the advice from personal experience but I would just remind you that this scenario was one we knew we might have to deal with. So stick to your convictions and do not feel in any way that this a negative experience needing to be explained. Remember your child is not a risk to others but potentially at risk so home is the best place anyway. Look at the weeks ahead as a gift of time with your child you would otherwise have given to the school. Teach your child some new stuff she might not get at school like trips to the museums. Have fun and do not allow negatives to be a part of this experience.

This is patently silly. My kids and my niece got the vaccine, at different times, and yet all three got chicken pox anyway – one got it TWICE! After being vaccinated!

Using these facts and the school’s logic, hardly anyone would EVER be at school!

Great points! Despite not vaccinating, families gain the advantage because the overwhelming % of the community HAS vaccinated. Also, as many have pointed out, the school isn’t forcing her to change her approach to vaccines, but respect the rules that they (and surely the health department) lay down for people who choose her path.

To me, the ‘poor us’ thinking is another one of these special snowflake things — you want the school to do what you want for your kid based on what you think is best. They simply can’t operate that way — and in this case, probably have health policies that are developed by the school board/health department.

To be blunt: they have to get over it.

“Once she has had it documented that she has had it (and when she calls the doctor to get it documented she should be prepared to go in the back door to avoid other patients,) she will no longer have to keep her daughter home.”

Unless she’s a Christian Scientist, in which case there will be no documentation by a medical professional.

I can certainly understand the school having the SICK child stay home for 20 days to prevent transmission… if it’s not “going around,” and “vector unvaccinated child” is not symptomatic, let her go to school!

She should have already had this discussion with her daughter, but has not. She should say that chicken pox is going around and since she is not vaccinated against it, she must stay home during the contagious period. This protects her daughter from not getting chicken pox and becoming another carrier. But, mainly, it protects the other children in the school who are unable to be vaccinated or have other health issues which compromise their immune systems. Our friend’s daughter had cancer and had to miss all sorts of school events because “someone” had been sick recently. Bad enough dealing with cancer. Then, she should explain to her daughter that without vaccinations, she is much more likely to catch chicken pox and other diseases. If she has chicken pox, she is more likely to get shingles when she is an adult. The daughter is old enough to start understanding why her mother is making these choices for her. The daughter just might have a different opinion.

Religious beliefs don’t excuse selfishness. Please tell her that not only is she at high risk of contracting a preventable disease, but when she gets it, she can then spread it to others. If you want to religiously object to a vaccine, you are free to do so. You aren’t free to pose a public health risk to others.

The child is being kept out of school so she doesn’t become infected and infect other kids- not for her own protection. If you don’t want to keep her home, get the vaccine.

Honestly, I don’t want an unvaccinated child spending time with either my child or me. I almost lost my child to a disease that he was vaccinated against but came down with anyway. Had he not been vaccinated he most likely would not be here today. The vaccination did not prevent him from getting bacterial meningitis but it certainly helped prevent him from dying from it.

I love Penn and Teller. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

I meant to say, “Since it’s just chicken pox, and [the school administrators] are asking the girl to be out of school for 20 days, I think that’s excessive.”

You deserve what you get lady. These vaccinations are in the best interest of the children. Why would you want to expose your child to a helpe, that is wrong. Just give her the vaccination or you should pull her from school cuz this whole idea that you think religion is a good reason to keep your child from getting vaccinated is very irresponsible of you?

I had my kids vaccinated, but in fairness to this woman I think there are too many vaccines and that as a country we may be approaching the limit or a point where the immune system’s of children can’t handle them all well. Certainly there is controversy over whether they contribute to other problems. Was the CDC ready for ebola or were they busy putting in bike paths and doing studies on how monkeys communicate by flinging their poop? Should we as a country have 100% confidence that the CDC knows how many vaccines all children can handle? Maybe some can handle more than others? I don’t know. I don’t necessarily share this woman’s religious beliefs, but I don’t condemn her either.

You people who don’t think “childhood diseases” can be fatal need to visit a 19th century cemetary. Look at all the headstones for children. Most of them died of what are now preventable diseases.

“Tamara, no. If your child gets sick and isn’t vaccinated your child might give it to my vaccinated child who will have a milder version of the illness but might give it to my 90 year old father, who cannot fight against those things and, therefore, might die.”

Then why do you out the onus for your father’s health on my child? There is much more to health than just getting vaccinated. Why do I have to compromise my beliefs, which I think are right, by calling them beliefs you see, in order to adjust to your beliefs? Maybe your 90year old father should stay home if he fears illness. You can live in a bubble if you like. Illness and disease do happen and you can’t protect from it permanently. Doctors and even science is not infallible – remember DES? Remember doctors smoking on tv? Telling you which cigarette band is the best for relaxation? Educate yourself and make an informed decision.

This is not a convincing argument

*eek, should say Put the onus!

And if the school has a policy to make non-vaxed kids stay home for 20 days every time the pox is found at school, then they should tell parents this up front. Not everyone has a backup solution for a young kid to miss 20 days of school. The knowledge of that possible consequence would influence the decisions by some parents to vax or not.

I also think it’s really alarming to read the comments here. Normally sane people have really become convinced that chickenpox is a dangerous illness for children. How ridiculous. And scary.

Those of us who had chickenpox as young kids and remember it are getting past the parenting age, and pretty soon there will not be any parents who know from personal experience that chickenpox is not much more concerning than the common cold. Actually less, because unlike a cold, once you have a full-blown case of chickenpox, you generally won’t get it again.

And I’ve had shingles too. It sucks. So does sunburn and a lot of other things people deal with and don’t vax for.

Vaccinations are inherently unsafe. We don’t vaccinate anymore after outr children have had reactions and long term issues.
that said, she should be able to sign a waiver for her daughter to go to school if desired. However, we also homeschool, so I think thats a fabulous choice, as well, lol.

Not to seem extremist, but I do NOT think Americans should have a choice to vaccinate. Vaccinations are necessary for a healthy society, and the mainstream of scientific opinion supports this. Those who do not vaccinate their children endanger us all. We all want choice, but because we live in a society, this is one choice we must yield, for the good of all.

I’m British and we do not vaccinate against chickenpox here (because scientists here have looked at the evidence and come to the conclusion that its a harmless childhood illness and that it’s better for the general population not to be vaccinated). Both my sons have had it – my eldest was 5 and it was no worse than a cold, my younger son was almost 2 and was a little bit more poorly because of his age but nothing to worry about. I was also pregnant at the time but as I’d had it as a child my daughter wasn’t at risk either. I know there can be complications but I don’t know anyone who’s ever had any and considering it’s something that everyone here gets that is unusual if it’s as dangerous as some of you suggest.
Someone said it was a free range issue because of the irrational fear of vaccines – I’d put it the other way and say it’s a free range issue because of the irrational fear of illness. Being sick is part of life and is something that children have to experience, we can’t and shouldn’t protect them from everything.
One last thing – there is a lot of judgemental comments on here and I find that ironic for a community which feels judged and controlled by laws which restrict their childrens freedom.

“Not to seem extremist, but I do NOT think Americans should have a choice to vaccinate. Vaccinations are necessary for a healthy society, and the mainstream of scientific opinion supports this. Those who do not vaccinate their children endanger us all. We all want choice, but because we live in a society, this is one choice we must yield, for the good of all.”

This is unfortunately an extremist view – so everyone should be forced to vaccinate even if it harms, injures or kills some children – again as long as your child isn’t one of those unlucky “few” so now choosing not to vaccinate would be a crime? To keep us all safe? Enjoy your propaganda kool aid.

I am not anti-vax. BUT there are two that my child will not have (nor will I): flu and chicken pox, because allergies and sensitivities run in my family. Both my mother and grandmother had allergies to something in the flu vaccine that left them debilitated for months after receiving it, and both stopped getting it (and my grandmother was a nurse). When someone says I should try it and “see what happens” I look at them like they’ve grown another head: being sick for a week or two verses debilitated for months?! Not something I want to risk! With the chicken pox, most of nieces and nephews had allergic reactions to it, and one actually developed shingles from it (which runs in our family). They are all about the same age, so they all got it at the same time. Again, the risk that this could happen to my son is too great for me to give to him so that he could spend a few weeks not being itchy. Because I am assuming the risks here, I would not be upset if my child didn’t get to participate in things because he didn’t have these vaccines, and I already not planning on sending him to public school, where it would be a bigger issue. I don’t think this mother has a right to complain about how the school is treating them, because all schools inform people that if an outbreak of whatever it is they aren’t vaccinated against happens the student will be removed from class. It’s stated right on the release that must be signed. So she shouldn’t be acting so blindsided by her child’s removal.

Why does the whole system have to act backwards? Chickenpox is extremely contagious (and if the kids’ vaccinations are not up to date, even vaccinated kids run the risk of catching it. Instead of keeping the vaccinated kid home, shouldn’t it be the one spreading the disease that should be isolated from their class mates. Not only does this makes things safer all around, it is also a lot easier to explain. “You can’t go to school because you’re sick and we don’t want your friends to get it too.”

Ben, the post doesn’t say the sick kids aren’t being kept home. I’m sure they are — I’m pretty sure it’s been a matter of law everywhere for decades that they must be kept home for a stated time after diagnosis.

It just doesn’t mention that. The reason for the non-vaccinated kid to be kept home even if the sick ones are is that she may already have been exposed during the sick kids’ incubation period, and is more able to pass the disease on than vaccinated kids are.

I guess my question is….does the Mom think they school is just punishing her for her vaccination choices? That they aren’t following guidelines set out by their school system/health department? I just looked up ours and it’s the same (though the time out is not listed). And those rules are listed on a State Level Health Dept website. End of story.

Remember, you have an *exemption*, meaning your choice is not standard and not preferred.

I have seen a number of posts like these:

“First of all, chicken pox can be deadly. True, dying is rare, but serious complications are less so.

Second, many people cannot get vaccinated and rely on herd immunity, so you endanger them when you ignorantly refuse the vaccine.”

It makes a jump that I would like to better understand — since when are we REQUIRED to take drugs to save strangers’ lives? Is that a standard we are willing to accept? And I’m not talking about “choosing to” because you are a good person, but being “required to.” And I am not just talking about vaccinations. The second we start talking about REQUIRING people to do something to their own person, we travel into dangerous territory that feels warm and fuzzy when we are talking about vaccinations, but is less so when it gets applied to other things.

As a 39-year-old who is *right now* trying to recover from my first bout of Shingles, any assertion that Chicken Pox is a harmless disease is a load of shit. Looking at you, Melissa, Buffy, others. Vaccinate.

Tamara – If I really thought the CDC were seriously working hard on how many vaccinations kids can handle and which ones are really effective enough to use I might share your opinion that everyone should have to get vaccinated, but the hard earned tax dollars are instead being spent on bike paths and research about how poop flinging affects monkeys communication. General science indicates that some vaccines are highly beneficial, but more research is needed as we keep adding more and more. It might not be a few children who suffer as the CDC appears to be winging it. It might be a lot and that I would not endorse that. Unfortunately, we do not have the level of education or ethics needed in some of these politically appointed posts to have everyone forced to do something like that. Money and power corrupts and no one does anything useful if there isn’t an immediate epidemic.

“Your choice is not standard or preferred”
Well that really is the most truthful thing written here yet in my opinion.

Meaning also that your choice is more inconvenient and difficult FOR US – the school, the workplace, whatever.

Fortunately I’m used to this mentality – I’m pretty much an athiest, hippie, vegan, anarchist, unschooler – that makes my belief pretty inconvenient for most people and I’ve developed a pretty thick skin but I know I am not the only one making unconventional choices. The world is not just for your easy convenience. All people have rights so don’t go feeling all self righteous that yours is the best way!

Herd Immunity – great for you to have your beliefs about vaccinations, but there are consequences to your choice. Namely, if you choose to go the route that potentially compromises the health of other members of society, expect society to ask you, politely, to step away.

I was the kid in school that got Chicken Pox late and had complications, resulting in having to stay home for more than a month in extreme discomfort. My husband has never had CP and has no immunity to it. The disease is very dangerous in adults – so as a member of society, I object to kids joining the group that may be carriers of it.

I don’t believe herd immunity is a valid government goal with respect to chickenpox.

There. I said it.

Typically a case of ‘your freedom stops where that of others begins’, IOW, do whatever you like as long as it effects only YOU. Whether ‘YOU’ should include your child(ren) is another debate, but it certainly doesn’t include other people’s children, pregnant women other than you or other people’s 90yo fathers.

That said, vaccination against chicken pox isn’t even standard here, which makes this particular vacs discussion a bit weird for me…

@Tamara — what you quoted from me is the truth, but we’re not talking about people stopping you on the street or in your home, we’re talking about school system that runs under the health department’s guidelines in their attempts to keep the school population (100s or 1000s of people in one small place) healthy and minimize the spread of infectious diseases.

I’m not interested in debating Vaxs, but I’m not so naive to believe the school system has to adapt their policies (and of course they cannot anyway) because I’ve made a choice that has clearly stated (potential) impacts to my kid attending school.

Regarding the 90yo grandpa. I am sorry, but he’s going to die of something eventually. There is 100% likelihood that his grandkids are going to be exposed to something that “could” kill him. A common cold or flu could do it, and I’m not going to quarantine my non-flu-vaxed kids for 20 days every time another kid at school has the flu, because a third kid at school might have a 90yo grandpa. Nor am I going to get the flu vax just because some kid at school probably has a 90yo grandpa. Nor do I hold my kids’ classmates’ parents responsible for keeping my elderly parents healthy.

“Chickenpox in the KG/primary school is nothing alarming.”

It is for some kids. It is also much more serious for adults – a group that does exist in schools. Some are acting as if schools are made up of solely children or only the children are at risk for illness in schools and all the adults are immune.

Personally, I don’t care one way or another about the mandatory nature of the chicken pox vaccine. I’m fine either way. But the second the school chooses to make it mandatory, you make yourself a special exception by not getting it. That is 100% your choice to make, however, the ONLY person who should bear any burden from that choice is the person making it, not the people who have no part in the choice.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that so many here are so dismissive of OTHER PEOPLE getting chicken pox. Why exactly does SKL (just the last person who said it) get to decide what illnesses must be acceptable to other people? Even though chicken pox is rarely deadly, it is actually acceptable for society to say “chicken pox is a unpleasant illness that we’d rather not have running rampant in our schools since it can be avoided by vaccine.”

@SKL -in regard to Flu vaccines, the don’t cover all influenza strains so it would be difficult to manage all the various exposures. It would also be a nightmare for schools to have to manage, collecting flu shot data for the entire population every single year.

Some things are not the same, despite people continuing to draw the comparisons.

I understand the FR thinking when it comes to making decisions about what your child is physically and mentally mature enough to do. That’s different than public health matters that impact an entire school population. It just is.

Look, I am not actually an anti vax er – I am sure some vaccines have some benefits – or they did at one point. I am pro freedom to choose however. School is mandatory. Technically vaccines are not. Yet. Government runs schools. Forcing you to take a healthy but not vaccinated child out of school because they “might” be unknowingly contagious is punitive and manipulative under the guise of public protection. They are hoping you will cave and just get your darn kid vaccinated already and they make it difficult enough so many do. Yay you won. But what are we losing in terms of freedoms and human rights when we start forcing people to do what they feel is unnecessary and unjust.

Again- follow the money -a lot of people make a lot of money from vaccines and that’s why we should all have as many as possible.

I have a question. I am a senior citizen who never gets the flu shot and never gets the flu. I believe in free choice for everyone when it comes to vaccines. I am anti vaccine. This is my question. If your child has a vaccine and the child next to you does not, how is your child at risk from the unvaccinated child? Your child is protected by the vaccine you choose(is it not?) so I truly do not understand why you feel all the other children need to be vaccinated. It is a real question and I would love an answer. I believe everyone needs to make their own choice AFTER studying all the potentially dangerous side effects. Thanks.

chicken pox is contagious before symptoms are present. IF the girl is exposed, and develops chicken pox, she becomes a disease vector to the wider public. so, say she is exposed at school, and then goes shopping with mom, while she is contagious yet unsymptomatic. there happens to be a pregnant woman shopping, who is either unvaccinated because she had an egg allergy (for example), or who has a low titer… and this woman contracts chicken pox. now, chicken pox may not be one of the worst childhood diseases but it can have repercussions: Complications include:

Bacterial infections of the skin, soft tissues, bones, joints or bloodstream (sepsis)
Pneumonia
Inflammation of the brain (encephalitis)
Toxic shock syndrome
Reye’s syndrome for people who take aspirin during chickenpox

for pregnant women,chickenpox early in pregnancy can result in a variety of problems in a newborn, including low birth weight and birth defects, such as limb abnormalities. A greater threat to a baby occurs when the mother develops chickenpox in the week before birth. Then it can cause a serious, life-threatening infection in a newborn.
and then there’s the fact that people vaccinated for chickenpox are not going to get shingles, either. those of us that are of the pre-vaccine era are highly likely to develop shingles unless we get the vaccination for that.
i could go on & explain hrd immunity, etc., but really, this woman should just be grateful her school is responsible for the community, because she’s missing the point whining about how this is affecting her life, when she’s not considering anyone but herself.

@SKL – some people cannot get the Vax due to their own medical situations.

Not directed at SKL, but it’s interesting the level of mistrust here. It’s as if vaccines have not proven their effectiveness or something. I get that some people mistrust and that’s their choice (for their children), but some of the comments read like they just don’t believe vaccines have been a positive health development in the world.

“Donna, maybe it’s a regional thing, because I have never heard of that 20 day rule.”

If by “regional,” you mean the region of the US encompassing both California and Georgia, then possible. It has been a well known policy everywhere I’ve lived for years.

It isn’t a 20 day rule. It is simply a statement that unvaccinated children will be removed from school should there be an outbreak. I think the amount of actual time depends on the specific illness, but I could be wrong. I asked my Christian Scientist friend and she knew about this policy in the 80s (Arizona). It just wasn’t relevant until the recent anti-vax craze because not vaccinating was rare and outbreaks of diseases associated with vaccines were extremely rare. Most of us went through 12 years of school without a single classmate getting measles, mumps, rubella or polio so any policy concerning unvaccinated children was completely irrelevant.

@Becky — I think the other part of the “I don’t know what to say…” is directed at other people that will now know her choice and until now had not.

there are a lot of people here saying “herd immunity” – are you all up to date on your boosters? If you aren’t then you better get them quick to contribute to that herd immunity. protection from vaccinations only last a few years.

Vaccinated kids can still catch the disease so why not just close the school down for 20 days? or if other kids catch it then patient zero’s parents should be held responsible – just like some people are saying that the parents of the unvaccinated child should be if they catch and spread it, right? Fair’s fair, after all.

“That is completely different from declaring that it is something to be banned from society (which the 20-day suspension essentially does).”

This is only during the RARE incident of an outbreak.
Banned, suspension. No!
The child is quarantined because of potential exposure. In the 7 years of attending our elementary school, there has only been one outbreak.

You can choose to not vaccinate your children.
No judgement.
But when there’s an active outbreak in your child’s school and your child is exposed and a potential spreader of this disease, all bets are off.

My daughter has celiac disease – a compromised immune system. I DO vaccinate her, because I need all the help I can get to keep her healthy.

Vaccines don’t fully work on her, because of her genetic condition. I rely on the good sense and courtesy of parents to keep their sick kids home. She still gets sicker than her siblings, but her holistic doctor knows it would be worse without vaccines.

Any kid who selfishly infected my daughter just to prove a point is malicious.

Lenore, do you really see not vaccinating as a Free Range issue? You preach responsibility, not malice. Risk assessment, not isolation and fear.

@lollipoplover: Are you sure your comment was directed at me? Because I don’t see the connection…?

At Rick: “Herd immunity is an unprovable myth.”

When was the last time someone you know had Small Pox? Oh wait, it’s been eradicated worldwide. Because of widespread vaccination. That is “herd immunity”.

Polio is considered eradicated in the US, but not worldwide. Which is why your unvaccinated kid is extremely unlikely to get polio. Unless you are over 50, you are unlikely to know anyone in your peer group who ever had polio. Why? Because of vaccines, and “herd immunity”.

I support your right to make decisions for your kids. But don’t come up with un-truths to try to make your point. They don’t work.

I am agnostic. I am also a liberal. I did not vaccinate my children for veracella. So, this choice did not come out of fear of some conspiracy theory, nor a belief that God will protect my children (or whatever the religious exemption means). I chose not to vaccinate for veracella because I feel a line needs to be drawn somewhere, albeit not a straight one. My friends and I ALL had the chicken pox as children. We all missed ONE week of school. None of us were hospitalized for it. None of us died from it. None of us suffered from long term consequences of it, other than a couple scars from where we could not resist over-scratching. This school is trying to shame this family for not vaccinating. Let the parents of each child who did not vaccinate for chicken pox decide if they are willing to expose their child. If it was me, I’d ask for a play date with the kid who had it so I could get this process taken care of naturally… But, alas, this is yet another example of shear ignorant hysteria.

It saddens me to see some of these replies, but it does not surprise me. It’s depressing how naive some people are. I feel sad for them, but I feel even sadder for their children. Oh, and SKL, aren’t you the same person who gets upset when kids eat peanuts around your kids because your kids have allergies, or am I thinking of someone else? If you are the same person, your statement ‘I’m not going to quarantine my non-flu-vaxed kids for 20 days every time another kid at school has the flu, because a third kid at school might have a 90yo grandpa.’ is amazingly hypocritical. If you are not that person, I apologize.

Here is a great article some of you might find interesting:
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2014/01/growing_up_unvaccinated_a_healthy_lifestyle_couldn_t_prevent_many_childhood.html

I’m not going to debate about vaccinations here anymore because it’s getting boring and I have better things to do. I just really hope your kids never get a preventable illness that takes their life or even comes close to taking their life. I hope you never have to deal with that horror.

Snow, my kid does not have allergies (other than to insect bites), and I have never commented about how anyone else should feed or otherwise manage their kids for my kids’ benefit.

I admit that I might be more sympathetic to this mother if she didn’t sound like such a whiner in general. She cares enough about her religious convictions to not get vaccines, but is worried about what to tell her child and other people about them? She seems like a major Snowflake to me.

I agree, “what do I tell my kid” sounds a bit weird to me.

I’d say she has an exemption from attending school when anyone else has the chickenpox. 😛 Sounds like she is a SAHM, so might as well make the best of it. I could think of lots of things I could do with that time off.

As Julie pointed out, they don’t vaccinate against chicken pox in the UK. I think it’s interesting that all the scientists and doctors in two different countries can look at the same data and draw two different conclusions on recommending a vaccine.

That just proves that vaccines aren’t as black and white as a people would like to believe. If two nations can come to two different decisions regarding a vaccine, why is it so hard to understand how different parents could likewise come to different decisions? Why should one person’s decision be forced on another? Get the vaccine, fine. Don’t get the vaccine, fine.

All medical treatment needs INFORMED consent, including vaccines. There are risks to not getting the vaccine. There are also risks to getting the vaccine. Children have died and been permanently damaged by vaccines (and no, I’m not talking about the autism hype). There is a Vaccine Injury Fund to compensate victims of vaccine damage, and you can find the #’s of adverse reactions and deaths on the CDC site. The manufacturers of vaccines have been released from all liability, because otherwise they wouldn’t make them at all.

If a child dies from a preventable illness, that’s a tragedy that society blames the parents for because the child wasn’t vaccinated. But if the child dies from the vaccine, that’s also a tragedy but one society is apparently ok with, even though it was equally preventable (by not getting the vaccine). Parents don’t have crystal balls. You can’t know whether your child will be one of the few who have a vaccine reaction and die. So all parents can do is weigh the risks for their individual child.

Vaccinations protect everyone including the people who cannot get them due to allergies and immune problems. If one parent CHOOSES not to protect their child (and yes, these diseases KILL people) then the person who cannot get the vaccine is put in more danger. If the choosing parent signs off then, when their child does contract the disease, the person who cannot get the vaccine is again out of school for 20+ days through no fault of their own. Vaccines are REQUIRED by law because they are the RIGHT thing to do. If you believe some diety will protect you then stay home and don’t complaine about it. Ask the diety to educate your child. Same for if you just choose not to vaccinate (believe me, your child will cry a lot more if they get the disease than the vaccine). I know I sound rude but I’m sick and tired of people being stupid. Science supports vaccine use.

So since I am so stupid, someone explain to me how my kid being vaccinated stops an immune-compromised, non-vaccinated kid from being at risk when a *vaccinated* classmate gets chickenpox? It is pretty common for kids with the vaccine to get the pox anyway, and it’s still just as contagious whether a vaxed or non-vaxed kid gets it.

I also don’t know any adults who haven’t had chickenpox, so I don’t know that it’s a major concern for the elderly. It will eventually be as the vaxed generations get older, though. Which is a con against the vax, in my opinion, but that’s not going to change now.

In the UK we don’t vaccinate against chicken pox, it’s more or less considered a rite of passage to get it, so I’m less bothered by this than by not vaccinating against more dangerous illnesses. I’m kind of assuming the parents in question may not vaccinate against those dangerous ones either, unless they just want to minimise vaccination and avoid where the illness isn’t dangerous.

Why this old woman hopes you will vaccinate your baby:
Every June we clean the cemetery where I visit the graves of Grandpa’s brothers who died of the influenza in April and October of 1918. Fletch was 48; O. P. was 39. Both left widows and children, and a grieving mother who lost two sons in one year to a disease now preventable.
The wife of a friend was exposed to measles while pregnant and gave birth to a severely handicapped child.
The child of a friend had encephalitis following chicken pox.
Cousin John had polio in the ‘50s, before the vaccine. He walked with a limp, and when he was older he had a series of operations to make his legs the same length.
A friend’s beautiful younger sister had her body twisted by polio when she was nine. Paralyzed from the waist down, she rode an electric wheelchair around her college campus.
I have a smallpox vaccination scar, a tiny reminder that vaccinations can wipe out disease. Have you ever known anyone who had smallpox, who had a pockmarked face because he was the child of religious objectors to vaccination?
The vaccinations you get for your baby will protect not only her but your pregnant friend, your cousin, your uncles, and the children of mothers who are too fearful or too ignorant to vaccinate their children. If a vaccine against Ebola becomes available, will you get it?

Paul,
I am not anti vax, when it comes to killers and cripplers. But the chicken pox and flu do not even come close to the big ones. And we will continue to follow our doctor’s advice over that of idiots like you.

We do not have to submit to a medical treatment we are advised against, just to keep you safe. Because in all reality, whether you get sick or die, is really not any of my business or responsibility. Or care for that matter.

As to those saying vaccines should be mandatory……..when they come around with the vaccines to force them on us, they best check the gun registry, because I know a lot of people that would take up arms against it.

I think that it’s the social responsibility of those who are ill (or their parents) to limit exposure to others as far as they are able, not the responsibility of the school to either punish those who may choose not to get vaccinated, nor make any such decision on their parents’ behalf.

I know that if I’m sick, and know that I would be contagious; I don’t go to church, I don’t go to the mall, and I don’t dwell in public places if avoidable. Nor do I let my children do these things, regardless of how well they may feel, nor how important any particular event may be to them.

For this reason alone, I think that the multi-year “perfect attendance” awards should include an investigation, because odds are against one child, much less all the children in a particular family, would never get sick; and *knowingly* sending a sick child to school is abuse.

The problem here is the search for a universal answer. “Should vaccinations be required?” Well yes they should, for diseases that are as dangerous as polio. No they should not, for chicken pox. It’s easy to tell the difference if you ignore the stories (“Jimmy Jones died of chicken pox!”) and look instead at the numbers.

Unvaccinated children are a danger to the community at large. They weaken the herd immunity of the community, making it more likely that another child (whether vaccinated or not) or, worse yet, a pregnant woman, elderly person, or someone with a weakened immune system may get chicken pox. This parent has already demonstrated their selfishness by not vaccinating their child, and they’ve been granted that right, but it does not follow that they also have the right to send their child to a known contaminated area, to send their sick child to school, to coat their child’s sandwich in chicken pox virus, or any number of other selfish acts that put the community at further risk.

Chickenpox not a serious disease? So wrong. If your child is not vaccinated and for some reason doesn’t get it as a child, he or she may get it as an adult. That’s what happened to me. I got chickenpox in 1997 from my three-year-old daughter who had a mild case. I was 36. My mom couldn’t remember if I’d ever had it as a child–evidently I had not. For my daughter it was easy, for me it was horrible. Besides the fever, and aches, my skin erupted with viciously itchy puss-filled pustules (the pox) on my legs, arms, torso, and especially my breasts, neck, and face. There were so many and they were so awful that I wore a scarf over my face and didn’t leave the house for weeks. I didn’t even let my husband look at me. Luckily there was only a little scarring, but to this day I have marks on my face.

Putting aside the a parent’s decision to vaccinate or not, it seems pretty ridiculous to not allow a healthy child to come to school. The parents know the risk they are taking. Does the school even have the authority to make this request? Most school districts have regulations regarding student attendance and reasons for keeping your child home. If my child had no symptoms or fever, I would call the district superintendent and inquire if a school can tell me not to send my healthy child to school,especially if it is a public school.

I haven’t commented on this site in a while, but I felt I had to comment here. This child is being kept out of school because she can catch chicken pox and continue spreading it. This is a problem because there are people who cannot get vaccinated. They rely on herd immunity to stay healthy. They are often the same people who face life threatening consequences from diseases that many children only find uncomfortable. Choosing not to vaccinate is not just a personal choice, it affects the entire community. The child should be held out of school and the mother should hold her tongue, choices have consequences. Quite frankly, I think she should go get her child vaccinated. I also think that unvaccinated children shouldn’t get to go to public schools. It’s a public health problem and there is no logical, scientific reason for it.

Some people who catch the chicken pox don’t get permanent immunity. In 1990, my aunt discovered she could catch it twice. She was horrified, as the rash appeared immediately after giving birth to my cousin.

The cousin developed chicken pox a few days later, of course. Hospitalized for three weeks, near death. Chicken pox outcomes that severe are rare, of course, but nowadays they are so easily preventable.

No, in the interests of public health and protecting the community’s elders and infants, the school has a moral obligation to exclude children whose parents are so thoughtless as to fail to vaccinate them.

Why isn’t the focus on immunizing people age 9 and up and keeping their boosters up to date? Those are the people at risk. Nobody is addressing this simple question.

They are also conveniently ignoring the fact that it is common for vaccinated kids to get and spread chickenpox. Since they are not immune, they too should be kept home every time one kid in school catches the pox. The whole school should be shut down every time, if there is any logic in all of this fear-mongering.

I do hope that they are at least forcing those kids who “can’t be immunized” to also stay home whenever anyone in the school gets sick.

SKL, IS it common for vaccinated kids to get the chickenpox?
I have “heard” from non-vaccinating friends on Facebook that whooping cough is more likely to be contracted by kids with the vaccination that by kids without. But…I am not sure of the facts on that one. Certainly vaccines do not last forever, and in the late 80s we had a 2 year old who had a mild case of the measles at the preschool I worked at.

But chickenpox? My kids all had the vaccinations. Because as a kid, eating good, balanced homemade meals, lots of sun light, outside time, country living…I got every bug that came along. As did my mother when she was a kid. But my kids, who also seem to get everything, (we got swine flu as soon as school started – and we home school!) my kids have not gotten chicken pox. They probably were exposed to a friend’s little sister, but they didn’t get it. And a quarter of the kids in their classes have not gotten chicken pox, like when I was at the preschool.

I remember when I was a kid, and when my siblings were in school….so many kids were out every year the first few grades because of chicken pox. And with my own kids…I know of exactly 1 child who had the pox as mentioned above. Even after switching to a charter homeschooling type of school, I haven’t heard of any kids being sick with chicken pox.

I have heard of people in some of my groups on FB looking for pox parties because they want to get it over with while the kids are young…but they haven’t had any luck. I think that one kid was thought to have had it last year, but the pox party did not produce any results which makes me wonder if it really was chickenpox.

@Crazy Cat Lady – none of my business of course, but I was wondering if you chose to get your’s looked at for PID? We had a conference a couple of months back and I was thinking of them…some of the ‘gastro’ kids sounded similar to some of the stuff you’ve described :-). Hope they are getting better as they get older, though….

I do have homeschooling friends who don’t vaccinate. And..they mostly are not doing it because they don’t want to take the risk (supposedly have looked at the scienc), have egg allergy, or have immune compromised kids and it is not recommended.

Personally, I feel that mostly, if we get our shots on time, we will be protected, or if we do get something, we will get it milder than if not vaccinated. I don’t purposely expose my kids to theirs when we or they are sick. I have helped them understand what whooping cough sounds like (didn’t have it.) But sure…when everyone seems well, we play together. We don’t get the nasal flu vaccination and then go play with the girl on chemo as that might effect her. But yes, my son with asthma needs his flu shot so that he doesn’t end up in the hospital too.

Either the vaccinations will work, and we are protected…or they won’t and we will get it but hopefully more mild. But I will have done what I can to keep my kids safe. Other people will do what they think is best for their families given their own medical histories.

If you want to choose to expose your kids to illnesses, fine, but don’t expect schools being willing to take that chance. Parents who won’t vaccinate their children for non-medical reasons are also typically the ones who will blame others for their kids having problems when they get sick. Why should schools face that sort of crazy?

Wow, I can’t believe the very Un-American attitude of people who act like they want to take away the rights of parents who choose, for a variety of reasons, to NOT vaccinate their children. Since when is it American to force people to inject their children with chemical concoctions that are in no way safe for the human body, especially babies & small children…no one even mentions the adverse reactions, potential harm, & real problems inherent in vaccines. Some people would rather not inject mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, animal DNA/viruses, etc. into their offspring. Don’t claim lack of knowledge about any of this, or that it isn’t true, because a little research will prove otherwise. And stop trying to take away the rights, or alienate those who have different beliefs about this – are you doing ALL you can every day to protect YOUR kids from every potential danger in the world? What food & beverages do you feed them or allow them to consume, with ingredients that can cause illness & disease? How about dangers from EMFs with the use of technologies that can cause cancers over time? Sports that can cause injury/death… illegal drugs/alcohol/STD’s. The list goes on. So don’t act like unvaccinated children are the problem on this earth. Your kids are at risk daily, from a vast onslaught of risks.

@Jennifer M – I’m not an American, but surely even Americans have to occasionally do things for the common good? Individual rights are all well and good, but in listening to nonsense ‘science’ as you appear to be doing, you are impinging on the general rights of your fellow countrymen to enjoy a society relatively free of serious infectious diseases.

The reputable websites state that the chicken pox vaccine has about a 90% effectiveness rate for completely preventing the disease and a 100% effectiveness for preventing moderate to severe cases. The CDC claims the effectiveness at 98% once both shots are given. In fact, most vaccinated kids who do get chicken pox do so before the second shot is given prior to the start of school.

So no, there are not widespread outbreaks among the vaccinated and the vast majority of vaccinated children never get the disease. When it does happen, it tends to be in daycares and preschools and not during formal schooling.

Now I would not be surprised if, once the vaccinated children start reaching college in large numbers, we have widespread outbreaks on college campuses with the realization that you need a booster at 18. This is exactly what happened with the measles vaccine in the 90s. But we will not know that for several years.

I still haven’t gotten answer as to why measles is “oh horrors, must vaccinate” and chickenpox is no big deal when the pre-vaccine death rate and hospitalization rate are extremely similar for the two diseases. My guess is that the only real answer is that the measles vaccine has existed for our entire lives (and pre-dates the anti-vax craze) and the chickenpox vaccine is new.

Someone asked why there wasn’t an emphasis on people getting their boosters. There is! It is a HUGE area of education and encouragement in groups, like the ones I am active with, that work on vaccine advocacy. Adults need boosters for certain things, too! Like whooping cough. This helps keep the most vulnerable members of the populations (very young infants, for instance) safe. Everyone should discuss with their doctors which boosters they should be getting and keep up to date.

So much of what I am seeing here is coming from a place of Privilege that people don’t even seem to be aware of. The amount of callousness about those not lucky enough to have a healthy immune system, or those who have other health issues, is a little shocking. So is the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding about how different diseases can and do affect people. No, being exposed to the common cold is not the same as being exposed to chicken pox, measles, or even the actual influenza virus (which is different from the severe colds usually mistaken for having “the flu”). It also seems that people are very unaware of just how hard parents of those children with immune/health issues, and those adults with them, already have to work to try to live a somewhat normal life while staying safe. Yes, compromised children are also kept home during outbreaks. Yes, individuals with health issues and vulnerability already go out of their way to take extra precautions and safety measures, and to avoid situations where the risk is too high. They do this for something they have no control or choice about. To ask them to live with more risk and inconvenience to cater to those who DO have a choice is the height of self-centered entitlement.

Oh… and for those who want to rattle off a bunch of scary-sounding chemical ingredients, you should really do some research on what those chemicals actually *are*, what they *mean*, how *much* is in there, and how many of them are actually present in 100% natural, organic foods (like apples and pears) or produced naturally by our own bodies every day.

For instance, formaldehyde. (http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients.html)
“So what’s the most a child might get in a single office visit? That would probably be at their 6 month visit (when they are, on average, 16.5lbs or 7.5kg) with HepB, DTaP, IPV and flu, for a total of 307.5μg. That is about 160 times less than the total amount their body naturally produces every single day*. Compare that to the 428.4-1,516.4μg of formaldehyde in a single apple.

Now, some might try to claim that the formaldehyde in vaccines is different from the formaldehyde in your body, but they are wrong. Formaldehyde, whether it is in a vaccine or your body, consists of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom bound to a carbon atom. The chemical structure is the same.”

Education, people. It is a good thing. Not fear mongering and what-ifs and ridiculous conspiracy nonsense. Combined with a little compassion, we might actually make this society into something worthwhile.

hineata

“@Crazy Cat Lady — none of my business of course, but I was wondering if you chose to get your’s looked at for PID? ”

Can you tell me what PID stands for? I am pretty sure the boys don’t have pelvic inflammatory disease. 🙂

But yes, as my kids build up their immunity by being sick, they are also getting sick less each year. As I did. It seems to level out after about 4th grade, unless they do like I did and work at a preschool in college…I was so sick the first two years…after that, I had built up my immunity again. I think we have had Noro twice…the second time around was no wheres near as bad as the first…
But immunity for it doesn’t last very long, as I assume would be the case with a lot of childhood sickness.

Frankly, I’m surprised and happy to see so many people here understand the importance of vaccines. I love this group but sometimes a minority tend to fall into the fallacy of “If people disagree with me it proves I have The Truth.”

I did not get the chicken pox vaccine when I was little (I’m 31) and I did get sick and survived fine, but I do agree that the school cannot start judging which vaccines are and are not “optional.” That is for a medical board to decide and the parent should take the fight there.

Two points others have made that I think are WONDERFUL:

1) Yes, the school SHOULD be providing homebound student services (worksheets, reading assignments, whatever) so this girl isn’t behind when she comes back. I think THAT is the fight the anti-vax mother needs to take on.

2) Why isn’t this mother taking her child over to the sick child’s house for a pox party? If that’s the good ol’ fashioned way of dealing with childhood sicknesses (because chicken pox is much more dangerous if you get it as an adult) then use this time to get it over with! If the mother wants her child to neither be vaccinated nor get the disease, then, well…

I sincerely hope this mother is only against the chicken pox vaccine and not all vaccines. The anti-all-vax crowd’s lack of understanding of basic science (my mother’s cousin’s roommate heard someone say that…) and obligations to our community is staggering. Isn’t FRK all about building a community instead of hiding in our own little houses?

Donna: I agree that Measles risk is also blown out of proportion, and I’ve made that argument before. It is more severe than chickenpox. But I would still rather have natural immunity than fake immunity that wears off as we get older and more vulnerable to all illnesses. Also, even the natural (partial) immunity I was born with (because my mom had measles as a kid) isn’t there for kids of the younger generations. I question whether the vaccine policy for measles has been right all along, but at this point I think there is no going back. I would like to see it not happen that way for chickenpox, which is a much more benign illness. But it looks like it’s already too late for that (in the USA anyway) too.

And Donna: I don’t know how to interpret the stats on how effective the chickenpox vax is. After all, nonvaxed kids hardly get it any more either, even if their parents want them to.

If the vax is 90% effective, does that mean that 10% of vaxed kids are just as likely to catch it as nonvaxed kids? That’s kind of a lot. I realize the disease will then be milder for the vaxed child, but hat does not change the risk that the vaxed child will pass it to a fragile, immune-compromised child. The public health argument is that even if I’m OK with my kid getting chickenpox, I should get the vax to protect high-risk kids. But the reality is that high-risk kids are still at risk, not only of the tiny chance of my kid giving them chickenpox, but of every other illness that vaxes haven’t wiped out. In short, people with at-risk kids need to do what they need to do. I’m sorry for them but I can’t really change that reality for them.

And again, I refuse to ignore the *fact* that vaccines have risks. The CDC admits some of them, even as they push the vaxes. I’ve also seen it with my own eyes. It is not extremism or hype. It is a relevant factor to weigh in the pros/cons analysis of each vax for each child.

*I really shouldn’t post on here when I’m in a rush…corrected post:*

I’m puzzled by all the 1st person accounts, as if that is somehow reflective of the complete public health risk and statistics. Despite the (apparent) mistrust there is for everything and anything the govt or schools do, they aren’t targeting an un-immunized child because they get a charge out of it, it’s based on the best approach as determined by people who are given the responsibility to minimize infectious diseases.

Personally, I don’t really care what a random person “thinks” about how risk or bad or not a given infectious disease is. The track record is pretty good — something that’s been mentioned here countless times.

This is public health policy. If you don’t like it, then either start working with state govt to change that, or select a schooling choice that more closely reflects your specific desires.

The policy to force kids who aren’t sick to stay home for 20 days over every chickenpox “outbreak” (since when is 1 sick kid an outbreak) seems more to me like a way of forcing parents to do what the CDC says, regardless of whether it improves overall community health or not.

The government has been wrong at times. So has the medical consensus in this country. The attitude that we can just stop thinking for ourselves once government sets a policy is scary and foolish.

@SKL – so your stance is that the CDC does not make policy that “improves overall community health”? Have you looked up the statistics related to Chicken Pox rates, hospitalizations, and deaths?

So, you are willing to trust the govts of other nations, but not the United States? I mean, sure, that’s a choice, but that’s just a choice. Do you have any scientific data that indicates on or the other is correct or more correct? Do you know what these other countries might do in the future? Must every country on earth have to institute the same health policy at the exact same time?

It just seems random to say “hey some other countries don’t do this, so their population is better/safer than ours” with literally no substance beyond that.

I imagine if you don’t trust the CDC, this will mean nothing to you, but here it is anyway.

http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/monitoring-varicella.html

This child should NOT EVER be allowed in school. I respect her choice to not vaccinate, and do not think Chicken Pox is particularly dangerous. But I assume she has also not been inoculated against Pertussis, Mumps, Diphtheria and Rubella. That makes this child dangerous to others. A pregnant staff member who’s fetus contracts German Measles and is damaged by this child. She can become infected by whooping cough, which has been resurgent and is deadly, especially to those with compromised immunity or pulmonary conditions.
She certainly has the right to observe the tenets of her religion, but not to insist greater society bear the risks of that freedom. We all have a second amendment right to bear arms, but not in an elementary school. It is not “free-range” to fail to act to responsibly to avoid preventable disease in children. A child does not get a sense of self-worth, independence, or any other adventure benefit from the measles.

f a mother is willing to expose her kid to such risk, she must OWN it. Don’t force others who are not, especially those with fragile health systems, to take that on. If her religion required her to smear peanut butter all over herself, she also would not be welcome in the classroom. I think not vaccinating is a ridiculous a creed. But if it’s your deal, fine! Roll around and the Skippy and stay in your own damn house!

@SKL, I presume you are not an immunologist, researcher, or Dr. If you are, I missed you saying that. That’s why I linked to statistics..because unless you think they are fabricated, the impact of the vax is somewhat clear right?

The numbers of people who were hospitalized over chickenpox etc — how many of those people had other health issues and would have been hospitalized just as fast over a runny nose? And how much of that risk could be managed by having people over age 9 get the vax *if* they have not already had the pox? And what about the # of people who are going to get the pox at an older, riskier age BECAUSE of the popularity of the chickenpox vaccine? I guarantee you will see the numbers of serious cases in older people increase because they didn’t have a chance to get natural immunity and their artificial immunity (if they have it) will not be maintained.

I’m sorry I just can’t understand your take on hospitalizations? They have gone down. Do hospitals actually hospitalize runny noses? Did they ever hospitalize non serious Chicken Pox cases? I’m not following you here at all.

As far as the older people with Chicken Pox. I guess I will have to wait for your “guarantee”. I would ask how you know this as compared to all the other infectious diseases we are immunized for, but I’m not really interested.

Keep the kid home for 20 days. End of story. Get over it — or get them infected with it and never worry about it again. I mean, if they don’t immunize, they expected to get the illness naturally anyway right?

“Am I the only US citizen who found the comments of non-US readers really important? How come chickenpox in the US is a fear-inducing crisis when the same chickenpox everywhere else is simply an inconvenience to deal with?”

No, the non-US comments were fascinating. What is still a common childhood illness in some countries have been nearly completely eradicated here in my part of the US. We only had one outbreak in the 15 years I’ve been here that was contained because of the required quarantine (such as the one in the post) that stopped this highly contagious disease from spreading.
I don’t want to hear about outbreaks.
Stay home when you’re sick or have been exposed and were told to do so. Please?

“Why isn’t this mother taking her child over to the sick child’s house for a pox party?”

Pox party?
Is that like a poison ivy party?
At a poison ivy party, have guests roll around in mounds of it. Spread poison ivy on your face, in your ears, private parts- be creative! Get as itchy and pussy as possible.
What fun!

“People who have had serious problems over chickenpox were either older than 9 or had a lot of other problems to begin with.”

That is not true at all. The vast majority of people hospitalized for chicken pox were healthy prior to getting chicken pox. While immune suppressed people have a higher likelihood of serious complications, the highest concentrations with chicken pox complications happen in the general public because that is where the largest number of sufferers is. It is like downs syndrome. While the risk of down syndrome per birth goes up dramatically at 40, the vast majority of down syndrome babies are born to women under 40 because the largest number of babies are born to women under 40.

“They don’t break down the hospitalization and death numbers by age. I really want to know how many otherwise healthy kids between age 2 and 8 have died of chickenpox each year since, say, 1900. The fact is that this number will be extremely low.”

Huh? You have absolutely no idea what the numbers are but insist that it is somehow a FACT that the number will be extremely low. How exactly does that work?

Want to practice 19th century medicine? Expect 19th century results. That includes quarantine in the case of outbreaks.

Neil M – do you honestly believe that no one ever is harmed by vaccines? You ask for “scientific mainstream evidence” as proof. At least I understand where your facts come from. Of course drugs have side effects – and a vaccine is just another drug. And sometimes people have those things called “side effects” that are listed in the tiniest print on the package – in abbreviated form so you have to find the manufacturer’s website for the full version – and people actually do die. It’s maybe rare, maybe inevitable but it doesn’t matter – no one should be forced to take it is my main argument and for anyone to assume what another HAS to do is unjust. You don’t know my family history or current state of health. One size does not fit all, but it’s too inconvenient and expensive to treat each person as an individual.

Not a vaccine, but again another drug – DES or Diethylstilbestrol , a synthetic hormone given to women from 1940-1971 to prevent miscarriage. It actually was found to have no effectiveness in preventing miscarriage and it did actually cause cancer. Which leads to death in some cases. So there is one simple clear cut example of science and mainstream medicine being wrong. Anyone can google it. hormones are used in the production of vaccines. And we are really still in the “long term” part of finding any long term effects of some vaccines.

Also, as an aside, as I was researching what is actually in vaccines, including the non medicinal ingredients, one ingredient, bovine cow serum, make these vaccines, including MMR, unethical for a vegan or vegetarian. There must be other vegetarians or vegans on this board – has this been something you take into consideration when deciding on vaccines? This could be another reason for an exemption from vaccines that is not for religious reasons. I wish the author of the letter could provide more information because she is really only being represented in this discussion by pieces of information.

1) Yes, the school SHOULD be providing homebound student services (worksheets, reading assignments, whatever) so this girl isn’t behind when she comes back. I think THAT is the fight the anti-vax mother needs to take on.

I disagree. In fact, I also like the suggestion to now allow the non-vaccinated child in school. Let her go explore, swing from trees…anything but school. It defeats this great side-effect to provide work at home.

So basically the USA has decided that there is no value in natural immunity. I think that’s what I’m hearing, considering nobody seems to think it’s even worth addressing here.

I dunno, I really take a lot of comfort in the knowledge that my elderly parents are not susceptible to an outbreak of measles, mumps, or chickenpox, because they had it as kids when it was no big deal for them.

My kids won’t be so lucky.

Just wondering, where it will stop, for all of you wanting to make vaccinations mandatory? No more DNRs, state ordered sterilizations?

Because right now a lot of you are in favour of state sponsored extortion. Vaccinate your kid or else. Nice job Comrades.

Gotta laugh, I would bet that there are people in here that would fight to the end to support a woman’s right to have an abortion, “her body, her call”, but are the same people that would support the gov’t mandating vaccinations. Can you say HYPOCRITES? LOL!!!!!!!

Probably this has been said already (I can’t read all 200+ comments), but the fact is the school is trying to prevent a chicken pox outbreak. They are trying to maintain herd immunity, so kids who are not immune must stay home until the incubation period is over. And please get your child vaccinated before she becomes a teen! Chicken pox in teens and adults can be devastating! My aunt had it at age 22 and was in the hospital for 3 weeks. A shot is so much easier.

SKL – Again, huh? If people actually get the vaccines, there will be no outbreaks of any of those diseases to worry about people getting. Right now way more people die falling out of the bed than actually contract mumps each year (600 vs 63). More than twice as many people climb Mt. Everest in one day than contract measles in the whole year (169 vs 63). Lightening kills more people than contract tetanus each year (29 vs 26). Only 5 people contracted rubella in 2010 and smallpox, diphtheria and polio have been eradicated in the US. All thanks to vaccines.

There is no value whatsoever to having a specific disease in existence. If chicken pox is eradicated, the world will not suffer some horrible fate. There are plenty other things out there to give our immune systems exercise.

@Crazy Cat Lady – pelvic inflammatory diseases?! LOL! No, primary immune disorders…which thankfully it sounds like yours don’t have, if they are developing immunity to things :-).

@SKL – not that it will help other US-born kids, but if a hereditary component exists to immunity, then your own particular children should be well covered, as they were adopted from an underdeveloped nation, weren’t they?

Modern day idea of herd immunity is fiction. A society’s dependance on vaccines will eventually lead to more and more immune weakened individuals.

And I tell you, that for all the so called protection you think you are getting, Mother Nature is far more powerful, and smarter. Each and every time the earth/Mother Nature needs to cull the herd, all she has to do is drop another virus on us. She has done it in the past, and will do it again. And the more people that depend on vaccines to protect them against every little freaking thing, the easier it is to thin the herd.

You cannot fight natural selection. Nature eventually always wins.

@SKL – okay, I’m confused a bit/a lot :-). Didn’t you think that your parents having had some of the illnesses passed on some immunity to you (disclaimer here – I know effectively nothing about the immune system, am still trying to keep track of which ‘letters’ El Sicko’s lack of other ‘letters’ comes from :-), and no idea about genetic immunity to particular diseases!). So your daughters should have some genetic protection through their biological parents, if that’s the way it works.

Also, good on you for travelling, wish I could get away more, but surely you would vaccinate your family if you were travelling to areas with ‘dodgy’ illnesses. In fact, I thought it was mandatory in some parts of South America to be vaccinated against Yellow Fever before visiting (it certainly is if you’re coming from NZ).

You are still viewing this incorrectly, by thinking that it’s only a matter of accepting risk for the child. You should really also be considering the child as a disease vector.

What about the person on chemotherapy, or for any number of other reasons has a suppressed immune system, who is behind the parent and child in line at the grocery store? What about the person at the next table over at the cafe who can’t get vaccinated because they are legitimately allergic? The occasional person whose vaccine didn’t give them full immunity and thus unknowingly are depending on “herd immunity?” The pregnant mother or the infant too young to have been vaccinated? Or any number of other cases. How can you justify passing risk along to these most vulnerable members of the population?

When we were kids, there was no vaccine, and thus no ethical dilemma about how our actions affect third parties. Today there is. We have the power to protect the vulnerable (as well as ourselves), but some of us apparently are more than willing to conscript others into accepting additional health risk.

As far as getting vaxed before traveling, we can go online to look up recommended vaxes, but I’ve never gotten them nor had my kids do so. So far the kids have been to India and to several Central American countries as well as Europe. We did go into the jungles etc., and my wimpier kid (who is allergic to bug bites) did get some unpleasant bites, but nothing deadly. We are planning a trip to Argentina and Chile next.

Even in the US, we go to places that have a lot of tourists. This past weekend, we went to Niagara Falls Canada and to Kalahari, a waterpark located in a popular tourist city. And just yesterday my kids and I attended an international charity event where we shook hands with a number of people from Africa and other developing areas. I am not a worrier. 🙂

I only brought up Ebola to point out the contrast between us quarantining a non-sick, non-vaxed kid over the possibility of chickenpox, while letting an Ebola nurse known to have a fever fly from city to city without any precautions at all.

I live in the city she flew to. There are many schools and businesses that have been closed while they scrub and sanitize like crazy. Many people, including teachers and nurses, have been quarantined. (These nurses and teachers were on the same plane with Nurse Ebola.) Obviously this will add up to a considerable cost even if Ebola did not spread further (and I sure hope it did not).

And yet people are calling everyone horrible names and telling them how rotten they are because they don’t think it is smart to suspend a kindergartener who is not even sick, but might have been remotely exposed to chickenpox. Chickenpox.

Other correction: I do not live *in* the city that Nurse Ebola flew to. I live near there. It is a fairly large metro area and my home is in the general area.

I kinda wish we could edit out our typos.

“She’s lucky the kid was allowed to attend school in the first place” because of delaying ONE vaccination? Come on.

Personally, I’ve always been upset that my kids missed the chicken pox vaccine. It was NOT fun having to watch my child scream with pain because she was covered with pox from head to toe, inside her mouth, her genitalia, everywhere! It was NOT fun having to give a 6 year old narcotics for pain, and worry about infection.

I’m not happy about the thought of shingles for myself, or for my children. I hate the scars I have from the pox, and that my children have.

This mother made her choice not to vaccinate. Her child is vulnerable. Therefore, like any vulnerable child, she needs to stay home from school so 1) she is not at risk to catch chicken pox and 2) she is not at risk to expose a vulnerable person who *can’t* be vaccinated to chicken pox.

Free range parenting to me is about making good efforts to protect kids from real risks and avoiding protecting them from imaginary risks. It’s also about cost benefit. I purposely expose my kids to some known-to-be dangerous activities like bike riding, kayaking and skiing because I believe they have major benefits spelled F-U-N.

In the context of vaccination I chose to expose my kids to the tiny risk of vaccination (yes there are some risks) rather than the much greater (but still relatively small) risk of an avoidable disease.

That said of all the recommended vaccines where I live (BC, Canada) varicella is the one I would be most comfortable in skipping as the cost benefit is less clear than for most other common vaccines. I think that is reflected by the fact that varicella vaccine is not universally adopted even in countries with advanced public health programs. So I wouldn’t call people that opt out of varicella batsheet crazy like I do people that opt out of polio, tetanus, measles etc. Having grown up in a prety granola bar corner of the world I do know a number of die-hard anti-vaxxers who are convinced that all vaccines are incredibly dangerous. Sad to say these tend to be the same folks that believe in chemtrails, 9-11 was an inside job and all that junk.

Getting vaccinated is also a social thing to do. It benefits you AND it benefits the community as a whole. I would NOT go so far as to say that people should be forced to vacccinate though. That is too much sacrifice of personal freedom for too nebulous a public benefit. That said nobody should be shocked that the moderately anti-social choice of avoiding vaccination has a few consequences. In this case (forced stay at home for three weeks) the consequences were well known in advance, so I think the woman is being a bit of a snowflake with her complaints.

I don’t know about this mom’s school, but at our school when you sign the exemption sheet, it says right on there, “I understand that my child may be excluded from school for a period of time if another child becomes infected with…” The exclusion probably shouldn’t have been a surprise, although the fact that it happened so soon after the start of the school year might have been surprising.

She doesn’t know what to tell her child? How about the truth, in words and terms that a five year old can understand? Why make it more complicated than it has to be?

Chicken pox is no fun, but if I remember correctly, I wasn’t school age when I had it, and my brother was even younger. I vaguely remember baking soda baths and calamine lotion. It’s not the end of the world, but at the same time, I understand the school taking precautions. Are they being overcautious? Perhaps, but again, I don’t blame them, in this litigious day and age.

Oh by the way, children with AIDS are not allowed to be excluded from public school.

You can exclude a child who is NOT sick because someone else has a very mild disease, against which most other kids are vaccinated.

But at the same time, you cannot exclude a child with a serious, deadly (also communicable) disease against which none of the other kids are vaccinated.

I’m not saying kids with AIDS should be excluded. But there is a very clear double standard here. The bottom line is that this makes no sense other than as a way to punish parents who don’t follow the party line.

testing – is the site messed up or does it not like my comment ….

Part of the reason why this is such a great time to parent free range is because we live in very safe times, at least in the US. A very big part of that is thanks to vaccines. Preventable illness supposedly accounts for some 80% of childhood death in the world, and I saw recently on the WHOs website that it’s some 6 million children a year. That is so tragic, and I vaccinate my child because I’m so grateful that I don’t live in a part of the world where losing a child to an illness is considered normal. I don’t take that for granted and I don’t believe it’s responsible for any parent to take it for granted. In the US, the top causes of childhood death are car accidents, drowning, fires, etc… mostly accidental injuries that are also very preventable. The parent who wrote in would probably never let her kindergartener play unattended near open water, ride without proper restraint, play with lighters, and also probably expects her child’s school to practice fire safety drills and comply with all safety codes and emergency procedures in order to keep her daughter safe. I feel the same for my own child. I would have to ask her, though, why she is selective about keeping her child safe? Is it because she believes illnesses aren’t really a threat? Is it because she believes that the government and her own doctor are all lying to her about vaccines being safe and effective? That’s the free range issue I see on all of this, not what she is perceiving to be an overreaction on the school’s part. It’s all about putting safety in perspective (addressing true safety issues rather consuming oneself with imaginary ones) so that kids can live both freely and safely.

I think that the school may have overreacted just a teensy bit, but I still wouldn’t fault the school. They wouldn’t be allowed to disclose whether there were a student there who is immunocompromised and can’t be vaccinated, and also for whom chickenpox can pose a true health threat. These kids do exist, and their parents may want to raise them free range and worry free, too… how can they when so many parents of healthy kids refuse to vaccinate?

Florida schools are pretty much the same way. We also do not vaccinate and have to go through the religious exemption process (which your pediatrician cannot give, it has to be done by the county health department). Out of the handful of kids in public school on religious exemption how many kids that have been vaccinated fail to sero-convert? Not everybody who receives a vaccination will produce immunity. Both my mother and husband who are RNs have received the Hep B series multiple and both have failed to sero-convert. What about those kids? Will titers be required to be drawn? In reality the school is playing a numbers game as to who is actually immune to the diseases that are vaccinated for.

Anon – while I don’t disagree with many of your points, I am not so sure that the presence of vaccines is a reason why it’s safe to raise free-range kids. I don’t think anyone worries that a child walking down the street will have Measles jump out of a bush and grab them, and no helicopter parent is convinced that parental presence and constant supervision would prevent disease. I just don’t see the connection.

As for raising an immuno-compromised child without worrying, or any child with worrying, for that matter – I don’t think that’s a reasonable goal. The point is to not let worry overwhelm your reason, not to never worry.

I really doubt that the parents who decide not to vaccinate rob immuno-compromised children of the ability to have a free-range childhood. For those with severe enough problems to, say, not be able to leave their room and have visitors sanitized, they were never going to have a free-range childhood. It’s unfortunate but can’t be fixed at the moment. As for the rest, not letting them walk to the park is not going to change things. People with immune issues are at risk of infection all the time, parental supervision or not. Again, I fail to see the connection.

Finally, what happened to the idea of world-proofing a child, not child-proofing the world? Yes, children have diseases and conditions that limit their ability to do things. This is bad, and it’s good that science is working to fix it. It can’t be fixed, though, in my opinion, by limiting the freedom of others.

I don’t think that this particular parent’s freedoms are abridged by keeping the kid out of school. I’m responding more to the comments that suggested that everyone should be legally required to be vaccinated. I do not believe in shotgun vaccinations.

I also have to say, I am having trouble understanding Violet’s comment.

SKL, to me the difference with a kid with chicken pox, measles, mumps or such, and HIV/AIDS is the method of transmission.

A person with AIDS is NOT going to transmit AIDS to another person just by standing there and breathing, or even sneezing. A person with AIDS can only transmit it through body fluid, into an open wound. (Sex can cause small tears in the vagina and rectum.) So unless the child with AIDS has a habit of spitting in people’s eyes, having unprotected sex in school, or sharing needles and shooting up, it is not likely that the child will spread the disease. (And for the record, even the spitting is not likely to transmit HIV/AIDS.)

@Puzzled – off topic a little, but these days for many of the serious congenital immune-deficient conditions, they can do bone marrow transplants. Drastic, but makes the immune system brand new evidently.

Says Dr. hineata, who can’t even keep track of doctor appointments with any sort of reliability, let alone health info :-).

SKL – Making ridiculous comparisons doesn’t make your arguments stronger or convince anyone of anything. AIDS cannot be passed from simply sitting in a classroom. Chickenpox can. That is a completely rational reason to treat the two diseases very differently. Now if they were allowing kids with chickenpox to stay in the classroom, but making the healthy unvaccinated kids go home, you could make a comparison. But they don’t; kids with chickenpox are sent home and made to remain there for a certain number of days.

Keep in mind that I am not particularly pro-chickenpox vaccine. Chickenpox certainly was not a scourge that I believed needed to be erased from the globe and, if I was a medical researcher, I totally would not have supported wasting time, money and resources on developing a vaccine for chickenpox when there is so much more important work to be done. But the vaccine now exists, and frankly there is simply no benefit whatsoever in needless suffering. You are not going to be met by God at the pearly gates with a special reward for suffering through chickenpox and shingles instead of getting a vaccine. The human immune system is not going to waste away to nothing because it doesn’t battle chickenpox. Chickenpox contributes nothing to us such that suffering through it actually provides some overall benefit. There is simply no reason for chickenpox to exist and no reason not to get rid of it.

Anecdotally, my son has been far, far sicker with numerous bouts of strep throat than he ever was with chicken pox. Strep throat is contagious a few days before symptoms appear and the ramifications from untreated strep are quite serious. Are the apparently hundreds of immune-suppressed kids (that you all keep referencing) being sent home when a case of strep is confirmed in the school? Doubtful. Is everyone upset about their 90-year-old father getting strep because a kid at school was so irresponsible and got sick? Doubtful.

So why are we going completely nuts over a common childhood illness that actual MDs and other countries do not believe needs to be vaccinated against?

And yeah, how did the kid in the original poster’s school GET the chicken pox anyway? He or she was vaccinated, right?

Anecdotally, my son has been far, far sicker with numerous bouts of strep throat that he ever was with chicken pox. Strep is contagious a few days before symptoms appear, and the ramifications of untreated strep are quite serious. But. Are the hundreds of immune-suppressed kids (that you all keep referencing) being sent home from school whenever a student has a strep diagnosis? Doubtful. Is anyone worried about their frail 90-year-old father when his grandchild’s classmate was irresponsible and, oh horrors, got sick? Doubtful.

Why are we going so completely nuts over a childhood illness that many actual MDs in this country, not to mention medical professionals in other countries, do not even think needs to be vaccinated against?

And add me to the list of those wondering how the student in the original poster’s school got the chicken pox. I mean, he or she was vaccinated, right??

Just saw this response from “Ask Marilyn” section of Parade magazine:

“Some people think that if other children are vaccinated, an unvaccinated child doesn’t put them at risk. Isn’t the risk only to the unvaccinated child? The answer is “no.” Many people cannot be vaccinated, such as those who are allergic to the vaccine and those who have immune systems weakened from other diseases. Also, some people do not develop immunity even after being vaccinated, and many children are too young to be vaccinated. An unvaccinated child who becomes ill puts all of these people at risk, too. In addition, he or she puts other unvaccinated children at risk.
Yet it is important to understand that parents who decline to vaccinate their children will not be swayed by these arguments. Why? Because they fear that the vaccination itself may cause terrible harm. This is surely mistaken, but they believe it, and that’s the crux of the matter. Given the choice of risking great damage to their children versus putting others at risk of these diseases, they naturally choose the latter. This means the only way to reach these parents is through education. Appealing to altruism is not going to work.”

Had to laugh, caught half a story about Varicella – is that the name of the vaccine? – on the news last night. Seems Pharmac is thinking of bringing it in. Will only be free for ‘those who need it’, though…..so maybe we didn’t have it available before at all.

Not that I can see queues forming to get it :-).

Tamara:

Normally, in a debate the burden of proof falls on the person who makes the assertion, not those who challenge it. So when that person says, “Do your own research”, it’s reasonable to others to wonder if she really can marshal any substantive evidence in support of her assertion. For example, if I were to claim that evolutionary theory provides the best explanation for the origin of species, I could back that up with tons of scientific authority. If I refused to do so, you’d be wise to suspect that perhaps I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about.

That being said, I really, really believe that whatever research you’ve done has satisfied you. Oh yeah.

@Beth: The thing about strep is, you can kill it with antibiotics because it’s caused by a bacterium. Chickenpox is viral, so when you get it, you’ve got it.

Andrea, SLK and others who keep saying this is “just chicken pox” and you “don’t understand all of this about chicken pox”, the people who are upset are not upset about chicken pox. Unless maybe the will lose their job if they take another sick day for their kid. Or they themselves had a bad experience with chicken pox. Yes, most of us realize for most kids, chicken pox is not a deadly disease.

Really, this is about all the OTHER diseases that this child is not immunized against. The mumps (that caused my mother-in-law to become 95% deaf,) the measles (that can cause issues with unborn babies,) the whooping couch (that killed a baby in a town where I used to live – the baby was too young to get the vaccine and was misdiagnosed because babies don’t present the same as old children.)

I am almost 100% sure that because the woman said that she took “the religious exemption” that she did not exempt herself from just chicken pox vaccine. She exempted from ALL the vaccines. If she had exempted just from chicken pox, she would have worded it differently.

How do I know this? In one of my FB groups, there are a lot of people who don’t vax. They “take the exemption” meaning they don’t vax at all. Some will “selectively vax” meaning they may not do chicken pox, flu or HPV. Some do “alternative schedule” or “delayed vaxing,” meaning that they will do most of the required shots but wait until the child is older than normal. These people are usually considered up to date by the time that school starts. The woman in consideration took the religious exemption…I am pretty sure her child has had no vaccinations. Chicken pox…eh. The other things…a little bigger deal.

Oh, and for the person wondering about other diseases, like strep…the first school my daughter went to sent home a flyer if a kid got strep, foot and mouth disease, lice or some other things that could put compromised kids at risk so that at least the parents could be aware of them. (Lice being the exception…that is just an itchy pain in the rear of the head, but does not transmit disease.)

Crazy Cat Lady, that’s why I asked upthread if people’s reactions would be different if she had only taken exemption from the chickenpox vax or for reasons other than religious. The vitriol here against this lady and against her kid as a “vector of [chickenpox] disease” is over the top.

We don’t know that she would have protested having her kid kept out of school during a measles outbreak, do we? The pertinent fact here is that her kid, who does not have chickenpox, was suspended from school because another kid had chickenpox.

So far you are the only person who admits that it isn’t the chickenpox factor but the overall religious exemption issue that has people upset.

Her kid already shouldn’t be in school. Measles and mumps are both more contagious than ebola. Letting people opt out of vaccines for obviously unreal reasons (her mention of a religious exception sounds like her reasons are everything but religious – who says “everything was going perfectly” in relation to an exception to not protect your children against deadly diseases?) is stupid, and if you’re not going to vaccinate, you should homeschool or nothing instead of risking everyone else’s health. Keep her kid home for good, and get rid of another antivax whackjob.

Side note? Shingles is a horrifyingly painful disease which only occurs in adults who have had chicken pox. She should be thanking them for making her child stay home so they never have to endure that. I had chicken pox as a child and am dreading the chance that I could come down with shingles.

Since there is a shingles vax, why are we talking about the chickenpox vax as if it is necessary to avoid shingles? Get a shingles vax if you’re afraid of shingles.

I actually almost died as an infant from the chicken pox so I actually take vaccinating very seriously. I think if the parent signed a waver saying she woulnd’t sue if her kid got sick then I would be more OK with it. In the end it is her kid at risk, I get the schools response, but sadly many parents would sue or react negatively if their kid got the chicken pox. I still have scars from when I had it and I would absolutely not wish for anyone to get it.

“Does anyone else think it’s odd that the prospective remedy to the reported feelings of loneliness and isolation from being kicked out of public school for 20 days is homeschooling?”

No, because when you homeschool, you don’t depend on a physical school setting for your interaction, and then sit around feeling deprived of it because you don’t have it. You intentionally plan to have various kinds of interaction with others throughout the day.

Isolating a person from the people they’re used to interacting with is, well, isolating. Finding a new structure for spending your time is a reasonable remedy to that.

Neil

I am so not debating you. You are not interested in a debate, you just want to be “right”

Prior to the availability of varicella vaccine there were approximately 4 million cases of varicella a year in the U.S. Though usually a mild disease in healthy children, an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 people developed complications, about 11,000 people required hospitalization and 100 people died each year from varicella