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This carpool lane poster is getting a lot of Facebook cheers for teaching parents a lesson:
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The poster of parental shame.
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“Are you delivering your son’s forgotten lunch” the poster begins. “His sports equipment? His binder or homework? Please turn around and save yourself from…’The Walk of Shame.'”After all, the poster points out, your kid will not starve or lose his starting position or fail to become President just because of this small screw up.
All true. So why am I not chorusing in with my kudos?
Because while I agree that kids can learn from their mistakes, I also think that if once in a while mom brings them their forgotten lunch, that is ALSO not going to ruin them for life.
Obviously, kids do not need rescuing all the time — they can roll with some punches and (slowly, for some of our kids) learn to be more responsible. But there’s something about this poster that seems certain that there is one right way to raise a kid and parents doing it wrong are pathetic and crippling. My true belief –in fact, the title of a chapter in my book — is: “Relax! Not every little thing you do has THAT much impact on your child’s development.” And that includes delivering the forgotten tuna sandwich from time to time.
I guess it boils down to the idea that once again parents are being told that their behavior must be 99.99% “right” and thought-out, or their kids will suffer. Free-Range believes that kids are hardier than this. Let’s cut both generations some slack. – L
157 Comments
Good point! When my daughter forgets something, most of the time I let her handle the consequences. But sometimes I offer her a kindness and help her out.
As an adult, sometimes I forget something and will ask someone to help me out. Or I’ll help out a friend (or my husband) who forgot something. I can extend the same courtesy to my children once in a while.
I totally agree, Lenore. Luckily, my kids’ schools did not have this dumb “no rescue” rule. My kids rarely needed rescuing, but when they did it was up to me to decide whether to help or not.
Wait, does that school actually have a rule against bringing forgotten items to kids at school, or do they just frown upon it?
I think, like most things, it boils down to moderation. If your child forgets a lunch, or a band instrument once or twice, yes. Go ahead and rescue. BUT….. if he’s forgetting his homework every day, and walking out without his lunch every day, then that’s a problem. The kid becomes dependent on Mom or Dad schlepping their stuff around, and doesn’t bother to take responsibility for their own things. I tend to believe that this sign (and others that I’ve heard of) probably came about because of an overabundance of the latter situation. That being said, this policy does not leave any room for someone in the first category. That’s a problem too.
So what happens if a teacher or other staff member leaves something at home? Test questions? Coach’s game plan? Reading glasses? Nobody’s allowed to retrieve anything?
I’m a little shocked at your position on this one!
If we truly accept your axiom that neither outcome is really going to harm the kid, regardless of whether the parent comes to the rescue or not, the sign makes even MORE sense. The sky is not falling, no extra effort is required on the parents part, let the school do their job.
What about providing a level playing field for all students? If Alex and Bob both forget their homework 3 times a week, but bob’s mother comes running to the rescue before class-time, does it make sense to only hold Alex accountable based on how much his MOTHER wants him to be prepared? Chances are, both kids need some kind of intervention, but only Alex is going to receive it. Bob will be the one going off to college unprepared to face the world without his mother around.
I agree. If you are doing it every day that is one thing, but once in a blue moon is not going to hurt anything. everyone slips up at some point. There is a happy medium.
Dolly: How about never allowing mom to come to the rescue except in the case of a written I.E.P. or some emergency? That’s a happy medium, and is perfectly fair.
I wonder about the state of a school when the parents are so afraid of their kid not having his homework that they’re freaking out over not being allowed to bring it. What’s one missed homework? Or even a few over the course of a year? Nothing, and everybody knows it, but for some reason a chunk of people are hyper-sensitive to the point of anger and outrage. Maybe their kid really does have a problem and they’re afraid the school will identify it. Maybe they’re REALLY afraid that the school will approach them about their own organizational skills and morning routine.
Something is wrong here with the angry parents, and it isn’t the sign…
Randy: because there’s also a lesson to be learned about how people do one another favors and help one another out. It’s important to teach your kids independence, but it’s also important to model caring, consideration, and going out of your way for others. Parenting doesn’t have to be about absolutes when it comes to morally acceptable behavior, because life is not like that. Part of what you want them to learn is judgment, like how to distinguish between codependency and just being nice.
So it’s a balance. I have five kids who only ever attended high school outside the home, and in the 11 years since my oldest started, I think I have run something to the school four, maybe five times max. If they began to rely on me to bail them out even a little, I’d cut them off. But when you have responsible kids who take responsibility for their stuff, and then make human errors, it makes sense to do them the kinds of favors you’d be willing to ask an adult friend or relative to do for you. Taking them their biology binder, flute, or running shoes once in four years is not going to make them incapable of being responsible for their stuff. Insisting that you will never help them out of a small difficulty does run the risk of teaching them that responsible people never make mistakes, and that grownups don’t need or deserve help from friends or family for the little stuff. Neither is a good lesson.
I’m a grown up and my dad will occasionally bring me something I have forgotten but need for my work day. Sometimes he takes stuff to them on the rare days they need something. Get over it.
BTW, what “angry parents” are “freaking out” here?
Hahaha – I’ve delivered Little Brother’s gym clothes to school one afternoon when I was home early and his gym class hadn’t started yet. He was SO happy! 😀
As a former teacher, I like that the school’s general rule is to let kids learn from their own mistakes. Occasionally helping out a child who is generally responsible but made a mistake is a far cry from regularly enabling a child who has learned to be chronically irresponsible or immature.
That being said, did anyone else notice that the “dont” in the school sign needs an apostrophe?
I hope this is an all-boys school.
If not, I’m much more concerned about sexism than helicopter parenting.
Pentamom: I’m glad you’ve found a balance with your children… If everyone were so level-headed there wouldn’t be a need for a sign like this. I expect that with a few hundred (or a couple thousand!) children, though, there are enough parents coming in every day in a rush that warrants something like this.
Here’s my question for you: If the actual harm of forgotten items like this is so minimal, and the only real negative consequence for all involved is a conversation about organization, or even an apology and a plan to do things better in the future… Why all the fuss?
Because I can see a few pretty big downsides, although they’re probably rare:
1. Additional traffic in the mornings around an already crowded school. There’s actual physical danger involved in this one. I’ve been around enough schools to see the carefully choreographed drop-off / bus / walker routine in the morning to know that they don’t need a few dozen extra parents trying to drop off something inconsequential every day.
2. Failing to identify kids with actual problems. Not even the teachers think it’s the end of the world when a kid forgets their homework, but if it happens often enough there may be something else going on that needs attention. There’s nothing wrong with that, and nothing to be afraid of, because the parents are part of that process. I’m not advocating that the kid get punished, but that the school have a chance to do its job. Chances are pretty good that of the, say, 2,000 kids in a large urban school some of them will need referrals to a doctor, a psychiatrist, a social worker, or some other professional for serious problems that might have first been identified by forgetting things all the time. Why make it harder to identify those kids than it has to be?
3. What about homes where both parents work, or where there’s only one parent? That kid better have his stuff with him every day because mommy is not at home to hand-deliver it to him.
I think my only point is this: a missed homework isn’t important in the big scheme of things, and it’s equally as bad for a school teacher to be a hard-ass over a simple mistake as it is for the parents to race to school to deliver their angel’s algebra homework as if her entire future depended on in.
This is kind of interesting. On one hand the schools/society want us to helicopter, on the other hand theres this message. Its 2 opposite things being handed down at the same time. But on both hands, its all the same I think. Schools and such telling parents how to handle your own kids. Maybe its not that serious, just kind of funny.
Pentamom: The facebook post responses are a little more livid. At least one who would pull her kids out of school over it, and several others insisting that they are going to be delivering their kids stuff anyway because they’re special. (And, apparently, unable to make it through the day without their homework, sports gear, etc).
Randy, in order:
1. Maybe. Depends on the ages of the kids and the transportation situation. Generally when it happens to me, I don’t get the call and get over to the school until the school day has already started, so the morning rush is well over. But other situations can vary.
2. Everyone here is saying that if it’s a regular thing, don’t do it. So the situation where it’s a regular thing, but the teacher isn’t aware of it, isn’t happening.
3. Well, then, it doesn’t happen. I’m talking about situations where it can. The fact that some other parents somewhere can’t bring their kids’ instruments to school says nothing to me about whether I should, if I can reasonably can, or whether people who can, should never do so
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At my kids’ magnet high school, the policy used to be that if you didn’t hand in your homework the day it was due, it was an automatic zero for the assignment and a detention. If my kid did her homework every night without fail, and somehow just got confused between her English binder and her biology binder when she was loading up her notebook after staying up late studying the night before, I don’t think she deserves a zero on the assignment. YMMV, but I don’t think it makes me a BAD parent to think that once in a blue moon, an extremely responsible kid should get a pass for being human. I wouldn’t let it become a pattern. It wouldn’t have ruined their lives, but at the same time, I don’t think that it’s terrible to spare a responsible kid a punishment that was designed to help the irresponsible ones shape up. And in the case of a forgotten instrument, or athletic equipment, it can mess up the whole band or team, depending on the situation. If once in my life I have to run a little errand to help one of my kids out, that doesn’t mean I never let my kids suffer consequences or teach them to pull their own weight.
This comes from schools that allow a child to turn in work weeks late and still get a grade..I am my child’s biggest alley and this sign is disgraceful
When I was a kid, I forgot a really important homework, and my mom brought it to school for me. She was given more or less the words you see on the sign. Thing is, I had never forgotten something like that in my life: I was a very responsible 13-year-old.
That day, I pretty much said “oh, to hell with that” (with a bit more cursing), and, through the fence, told my mom to wait a little outside of the building. Then I ran to get it from her, thanked her, and went back to class. Turns out they had informed my teacher, who was a little angry at me for having the homework I was not supposed to have. But she accepted it anyway.
On other thought, how /do/ they know that a kid won’t be affected? My son /needs/ to eat, and not that gross cafeteria food they have, but a more balanced lunch. If he doesn’t, his medical issues act up (which I’m hoping to have remedied soon). To a certain extent, and if the kid is a repetitive offender, I understand not giving him a forgotten homework or a notebook, but food? Bad idea.
I look at it like treating my kids as I’d like to be treated. My experience has been that if I’ve forgotten something and someone’s able to help me out, they’ve helped me out. And it hasn’t interfered with my ability to grow into a responsible adult. Randy, as far as the idea that the kid who doesn’t have a parent willing or able to help him out will suffer consequences — yeah, that’s kind of how it works. I guess most of us, in the course of real life, have some situations where we have to face the music (of our mistakes) and others where we get a little helping hand, and a break from the bad consequence that we “should” have suffered. So we learn to do our best and not “expect” that someone will always be standing by ready to bail us out, but at the same time to be grateful for those times when we DID drop the ball but someone else came through and prevented a (major or minor) disaster.
For one thing our society has set up schools to be ultra competitive for grades for scholarships and college so yes, sometimes missing even one assignment is a big deal and could cost you getting into AP and not taking AP could cost you that scholarship. But that is why I am not a fan of the ultra competitive way they are setting up schools.
It encourages this mentality to helicopter and stress too much.
Also there are always exceptions. My son has life threatening food allergies.I always pack his lunch as I do not trust cafeteria to handle it safely since they do serve peanut products in the kitchen. So if he forgets his lunch I am bringing it to him. The school can piss off.
Same with kids that need their meds during the school day for example
Lunches and band instruments and minor homework – no
Major homework or any group assignment – yes
I’m not going to punish another child because my own lost his head for 5 minutes.
All of my kids are responsible for packing their backpacks and making their own lunches. If they forget their lunch, they have $5 in their bag to buy lunch (they think the cafeteria food I beyond gross). My son forgot his lunch last year and texted me to drop it off. I texted back to use his emergency money and he begged me to drop it off. My girls were still home getting ready for school and helped *decorate* his brown bag with markers…”I ⤠Mom”, “Moms Rule”, “I’ll always love my Mama” and various rainbows, hearts, and unicorns. The secretaries were cracking up when I dropped it off.
He never forgot his lunch again.
As for other forgotten items they request dropped off, I charge a $5 delivery charge. They rarely forget. But never say never, no one is perfect.
My kids get one rescue a year, usually, especially in the earlier grades. I get stricter as they get older, but especially since they bring their own lunches, and the school will make them buy lunch if they forget in kindergarten or first grade. Letting them forget in those grades means I have to pay the school back.
Fortunately, my kids very rarely forget anything. We aren’t even all that organized in the mornings – lunch bags don’t have a special place; neither do backpacks or homework, except what each child chooses. Older kids make their own lunches; I only make them for the younger. They have a lot of freedom in what they have for lunch, within reasonably healthy guidelines. I always tell them to let me know if there’s something more they want for their lunches. My oldest, for example, just got hooked on meatball sandwiches, so she wants me to buy frozen meatballs regularly for her, as well as her preferred cheese.
There are better ways to encourage independence and responsibility than to tell parents they can’t help with the occasional mistake.
School, while I appreciate the vote of confidence little Jimmy won’t starve and the encouragement of responsibility, butt out and let families make their own decisions.
Randy,
I’m a teacher who only assigns homework because my school has adopted some homework schoolwide goal of the year and I need to participate. Your argument is that the child who frequently forgets his homework but is rescued by Mom is harboring some sort of special need that must be addressed and the only way anyone will spot this is by letting him forget his homework.
Really. A single detail like that? Maybe if he were frequently forgetting his homework combined with other eyebrow-raisers. But by itself? You’re overreacting. School professionals and those who would be looking into this would dismiss a single event like that.
Guess I’m the only one who is interpreting “The walk of Shame” as being the security pat-down the parent would have to undergo to enter the building to deliver the forgotten item.
Here’s why I disagree with this:
Fast forward 10-15 years. Mom: “Honey, I forgot to pick up cheese and crackers for the big family get-together tonight. Do you might picking some up on your way here?” Son: “I don’t think so, Mom. That was your responsibility and I’m not going to rescue you.”
You want your children to be ready for the real world? They don’t raise them in a contrived artificial one this poster suggests. In real life people, especially family, help each other out
I agree wholeheartedly. I am a firm believer in not rescuing my kids and trusting them to work out problems themselves. The flip side of this is that helping them out once in a while shows you love them.
“I am a firm believer in not rescuing my kids and trusting them to work out problems themselves.”
So if you were hosting a big family get-together and you forgot, say, the chips or something, you wouldn’t call your mom or dad or uncle or best-friend-that-is-invited-for-some-reason and ask them to please get them while you prepare everything else?
I mean, after all if they say no but they give you a candle it means they love you, right?
I had dyspraxia and forgot stuff for school fairly often. Sometimes, my mum brought it. Sometimes, I just did without. More often, especially on the lunch issue, there was some third solution not involving parental help – one day I just borrowed money from a teacher to go to the canteen for lunch, and paid her back the next day. Which is pretty much what an adult would do in that kind of situation anyway. It ´s not like we usually punish ourselves by making ourselves starve-freeze if we forget something.
I agree that the right answer is somewhere in between always bringing your child’s forgotten things and never bringing them, and the reason I feel that way is that I think school should teach nonacademic skills, but not hold your academic education hostage to your mastery of nonacademic skills that you may not be ready to learn.
Teaching preparedness is good. “Oh well you forgot your pencil you don’t get to participate in this writing exercise” is bad.
If your child forgets something important once or twice a school year, and you bring it, it’s no big deal. If your child is forgetting things all the time, it sounds like it’s time to sit down with your child and work out some better systems for arriving at school with all necessary items.
I can not believe most of these comments! Here we all are demanding that we have the right to make choices for the well being of our children and then we are going to all argue about whether or not a parent should have the choice to bring something to their child or not?
I would flip out if this were a sign at my child’s school. For goodness sake, this is my whole point about this whole free range idea; my husband and I are the parents! We get to decide what goes on for our child and we trump the school. Frankly, unless we are doing something unlawful, we trump almost every possible person. From minute issues like forgotten lunches all the way up to the big stuff like when they’re ready to be on their own, I get to choose.
I don’t bring lunches. I did bring a violin Ina day she was supposed to perform in class-/there’s no school orchestra so bringing a violin isn’t normal.
I’ve also brought wallets and keys multiple times to my absent minded husband. Also his suit when he forgets he has a client meeting.
I can’t help but think this sign was a result of all the helicopter parents coming into the school at different times. What a pain in the neck for today’s schools where they think they must “monitor” everyone coming in who is not a student.
So, half the problem belongs to the school administration and their prison-like rules. If hundreds of kids get bailed out just 2 times a year, that’s a LOT of random people to deal with.
However, If a parent brings a forgotten item to school more than a couple times a year, that student has his/her parents well trained. “Good Mommy! (Pat on the head) You earned your doggy treat.
Children are humans and if you would bring a forgotten item for your husband or your mother, why can’t you do it for your child sometimes? Not every time, everyone forgets and needs to learn to deal with it but sometimes how you deal with it is to call someone to get it. For example, a friend’s family was going to France and while at the airport they realized that the father had brought my friend’s passport from when she was 11 and not her current at 16. The dad had offered to bring all the passports that were stored in a drawer in his desk. For some reason he had not checked that it was the right passport, just that it was her passport. They had travelled there by taxi and going home and back would not be possible in the hour they had before the plane left. However, if he could get hold of the person responsible for their mail and their plants he would be able to get there in about 40 mins and they would make the plane. He was successful and the right passport was found in the drawer by their friend and delivered with a tiny margin so that my friend could follow the rest to France. Her father f- up badly but did the only thing he could to save the day.
@Casey….I think that’s exactly what Lenore is saying?
Must be nice for all these spouses, to either be stay at home parents that can take their spouse something at work they forgot. Or these spouses have great employers that don’t mind them leaving work, or don’t mind them being late for work to take their spouse something they forgot.
The school has every right to do this. When you drop off whatever, it now becomes a staff members job to track down the snowflake and insure they get whatever it is in time. In a large school that could be a couple of dozen forgotten whatevers a day. Time and resource consuming.
The notice is written in kind of a snotty tone and is insulting to the parents might have a good reason for dropping something off on that particular day. If I came that far, I wouldn’t turn around because of a sign. And it would be bad form for the school to expect me to.
If dropping off forgotten items has become such a big problem, the school should send politely written notices to the parents, not confront them with a sarcastic sign as they get to the school .
I find the whole whether bring in something forgotten once in a while or not to be major whatever. Decide depending on how much it inconveniences you and how often it happens. If the school does not want parents to disturb them during the day for organizational reasons, it is perfectly within their rights to say so and I will respect that.
But, the whole “The Walk of Shame” is dumbly dumb attempt to use imaginary peer pressure and shaming to manipulate adults. What exactly should I be ashamed for and in front of who exactly? Some other parents I never spoken with will look down at me because my 8 years old forgot something? Or they will look down at me for going to school at unusual time? Or because they (stupidly) assume I believe a kid will be president because they read it on message?
Not bringing homework cause you have other work to do is perfectly mature parenting decision. Not bringing homework cause your kid is forgetting too often and needs to learn is great parenting decision. Not bringing homework because you feel ashamed to go back is … well human … but not really fully mature. I am teaching kids not to care about pointless or illogical peer pressure. I am teaching kids to overcome feeling of shame and open their mounts or do something when it needs to be done.
If school wants to have respect, they should act both respectfully and as someone worth of respect too. This sort of tactic is neither.
I had a teacher email me to bring in my daughter’s assignments (she was to type up a report in computer lab and left the draft at home…she had nothing to type.) I didn’t get the email as I was on a conference call that morning and never brought it in. I sent an email back to the teacher that I didn’t get the message until it was too late (computer lab was over) and that she would type up the draft tonight at home as she has access to computers and printers (some families do NOT) and thanked her for trying to problem solve for my kid.
If I did get the message in time, I would have dropped it off (and get some exercise biking it up). My daughter rarely forgets her materials and maybe the teacher saw her upset she forgot an important item. Instead of seeing things so black and white, this wonderful teacher understands that kindness and empathy are more important than being right.
We all forget things sometimes. Whether I will bring a forgotten item to my child depends on what it is, why it was forgotten and my schedule. It should ultimately be my choice. It is my child and my time.
>>When you drop off whatever, it now becomes a staff members job to track down the snowflake and insure they get whatever it is in time. In a large school that could be a couple of dozen forgotten whatevers a day. Time and resource consuming.<<
It'd be time and resource consuming if the item had to be delivered directly to the student who forgot it, but at every school I ever went to, from beginning kindergarten to finishing high school, if someone forgot something, and one of their parents brought it to school for them, the parent would simply drop the item off at the office, and then the office staff would do an announcement over the P.A. system to tell the student to come and get "a package" from the office. They always said "package," so as not to embarrass anyone too badly, but being called down to the office (for any reason) was usually sufficiently embarrassing, so it worked as a fairly good deterrent against forgetting things on a regular basis.
Another thing; I don't know why nobody's brought up students who "forget" things on a regular basis. I'd often deliberately "forget" my lunch in grade six, because I simply hated eating lunch at school. Part of it was self-consciousness, part of it was the fact that food gets gross when it sits in a backpack all morning, part of it was not liking to rush to eat in 20 minutes and then get out to the playground or to Think Bowl practice, and part of it was the fact that there was a girl who'd steal things from me, and lunch items were no exception. Eventually, the bullying/theft issue got resolved, albeit slowly. But, my point is, this "forgetting on purpose" thing happens often enough that I'm surprised that nobody else mentioned it.
My son’s old school had a similar rule although not so rudely put. He was in third grade and at a point in time where he forgot everything. He would also forget his binder to bring home at the end of the day. The school had a zero tolerance policy from his first day about going back upstairs to get the binder. During afterschool activity pick up if your child forgot any item in the gym where they were corralled until the parents arrived, they were not allowed to walk back through the door to get it. Everytime I picked up my son I would watch as some child ran through the door, excited to see his parents, forget his backpack, the door would shut and the secretary at the front desk would refuse to open it again. You could see the parent doing the slow motion “Nooooooooooo” as the door shut behind the child. It was so silly and inflexible. Kids forget things. I’m constantly surprised at what we expect kids to put up with that we as adults would not tolerate.
To me this seems like “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”. There’s been countless discussions about how “parents” do to much for their kids and need to let the children be more trusted/responsible/accountable.
So now a school is encouraging parents to let them do exactly that and it’s bad?
I know from experience (as a parent who for a period was able to volunteer at school) that parents were doing WAY too much to “help” their children. I had a parent call me at home to say that the “math stars” optional homework for an entire quarter was being turned in the next day and could I retrieve them and grade them so he could get extra credit before grades were due. I was a volunteer! The teachers were not at all interested in reviewing/accounting for the work as the wrapped up the grade’s quarters (as Warren suggested).
But please, can we all realized that the headline here “Never Bring Your Child’s Forgotten Homework To School” is NOT what is on the sign? The headline includes quotes but the sign does not include the word “Never” at all.
The sign is simply encouraging behavior that this website is all about. The sign is communicating to parents that they realize kids aren’t perfect and the price of missing items is not going to be punitive.
So, is this the only outlet where suggestions about what to do/not to do in regard to children is allowed? A website that draws like minded people to cluck their tongues about what’s wrong with kids and then a school is actually suggesting that parents take a beat and not jump to their kids’ rescue is held up as a bad thing?
How exactly is change going to be reach all parents if other outlets don’t attempt to shift the mindset.
Remember, the school did NOT use the term “never”.
Who cares what “people on facebook” are saying. The school is trying to change a mindset that is universally accepted here (until today apparently).
>>”It’d be time and resource consuming if the item had to be delivered directly to the student who forgot it, but at every school I ever went to, from beginning kindergarten to finishing high school, if someone forgot something, and one of their parents brought it to school for them, the parent would simply drop the item off at the office, and then the office staff would do an announcement over the P.A. system to tell the student to come and get “a package” from the office.”<<
Yes, I'm sure the above does not impact the staff or teacher at all.
“Don’t use your judgment, use ours.”
Luckily, I’m a rebel.
Plus, I think most schools have gone to a meal-payment account now, so if a child forgets his lunch, he simply gets a school lunch, and the amount is deducted from the balance. It’s a great way to help kids not learn how to manage money. Yay progress!
>>”Don’t use your judgment, use ours.”<<
You realize that this website and Lenore's book exists because of the idea that parents need to adjust their thinking in regard to childhood freedom and responsibility? Like straight up — 'read and consider using Lenore's judgement'.
So, someone needs to tell me where the rulebook for expressing opinion and suggesting modifying behavior is allowed and where it is not.
Perhaps the readers of the the sign should use that common sense and realize it's not law or shame. It's responding the very stuff that this website is about. Don't enjoy the snark on the sign (if you consider it that)? Get over it.
Great post.
The thing is, we adults rarely have to suffer the consequences of our own forgetfulness. If we forget our lunch, we generally have the ability to go out and buy it – kids don’t. If we forget something really important, we can turn around and go get it ourselves – I’ve certainly done it myself. I don’t understand why I shouldn’t help my kids in the same way I’d help myself, since they lack the ability to help themselves. If my kids’ school wants to let them off campus to go buy their own lunch or walk back home to get their own forgotten thing, I’m all for that. But otherwise, I don’t see the point in making them suffer what I will never have to suffer.
Dienne — because children aren’t adults? I think the idea is that if you allow them to experience consequences as their brains are developing, they might get to adult hood and have good habits that limit the “oh shit — I forgot my lunch — this never happened to me because my Mom always brought it”.
I mean, I can go to bed whenever I want, but I’m not going to let my young kids dictate their bed time. Etc, etc.
Sometimes this forum is very confusing.
E, you need to relax.
I appreciate what the sign was trying to convey (despite the need for an editor). But it failed. And pointing out that the sign really says “Use our judgment, not yours” is just that – pointing out that bureaucracies don’t have “snark.” A thimble can contain more humor than a bureaucracy.
My kids have been fortunate over the years in that my wife works for the school district. Her job at the district has her driving all over creation every day to the various schools, so it was almost never a problem for her to deliver a forgotten item.
That said, out of three kids, only one of them ever forgot items on a fairly regular basis. We’re talking once a week or more. And even then, after a particularly bad week, and mom not being available to rescue him every day, he quickly learned the relying on mom to save him all the time wasn’t the best course of action.
All three kids were rescued from time to time, and that’s fine. Everybody forgets things now and then, and everybody occasionally has to ask someone else to please bring them the forgotten item. It’s no big deal.
I appreciate the sentiment behind the sign as simply the school reminding the more helicoptery parents out there that their kid is not going to be scarred for life simply because they forgot their lunch or homework assignment, and that it’s OK to allow them to experience a day in which they don’t have something they need, however, the sign is a little over-scolding with the “Walk of Shame” comment.
Also, I twice misread the sentence toward the bottom as “Please let him grow up to be the Peter Griffin we know he can be.” LOL
@E “How exactly is change going to be reach all parents if other outlets don’t attempt to shift the mindset.”
I would not call this reaching through. When I want to reach to someone, as in convince him, it is usually good idea not to be condescending nor snarky about it. It is also more respectful to use arguments and explanations instead of shaming them. This might be just me, but I don’t like being treated like a child with Great Griffin arguments.
I would not be condescending to full on helicopter parents either (unless they were condescending to me before). Many of them parent the way they parent because they want to be responsible and want to fulfill what they consider their duty. Mocking people is effective in making those who agree with you like you, it is not effective in changing opinions of those who are mocked.
“The sign is communicating to parents that they realize kids aren’t perfect and the price of missing items is not going to be punitive.”
It is not communicating that at all. It has no mention of punishment or accepting non-perfection – it is about the child becoming great griffin and a bunch of strawmen. It has also odd mention of walk of shame.
One of reasons why parents bring those things in is that they have been told homework and materials are important. Many are acting on the “something important was forgotten need to fix issue” basis. Schools tend to emphasis importance of parental involvement on school result – sometimes overemphasis. How important it is to be involved is thrown at them every time school wants volunteers. Some of them feel ashamed that something was forgotten in the first place and are perfectionists themselves.
That sort of parents wont stop being like that if you make it shameful to bring forgotten stuff in. They will become more anxious about triple checking everything before leaving the house.
Some stay at home moms are bringing in forgotten stuff because they have the time to do so anyway and it is not inconveniencing them anyway. They would feel lazy if they would not bring lunch in. If it is inconveniencing the school, I find it preferable if the school tells so directly, clearly and bit more respectfully.
“The sign is simply encouraging behavior that this website is all about.”
I don’t think so. I don’t mind school discouraging parents going back with forgotten things. I would respect that (unless we are talking about something really much important) and I would not be inclined to bring forgotten stuff in anyway. However, the sign is more about worrying that your child wont grew up independent enough if you do bring things in.
I understand that someone calling you at night because of star homework is annoying, but that simply is not the same as bringing in forgotten binder to school.
Thank you @E, I was thinking the same thing. Part of why we don’t treat kids like adults is that they are not adults. They need to learn, and a little discomfort now will spare them a lot of painful screw ups in the future. I don’t think I would deliver my kid’s forgotten item the first time, or the first 3 times, or whatever (unless it was critical, like medication, or a severely allergic kid’s safe lunch). Because those first couple of times are a great time to nip a potential bad habit in the bud. I can be a softy sometimes, but I have found that when I give in to that instinct when my daughter is learning something, she doesn’t remember what I told her, and starts in on a hard to break bad habit. But when I am firm up front, and then maybe act like a softy later, she appreciates that I am letting up out of generosity, and still remembers the correct behavior. So of course when they have demonstrated good habits, and just had the ooops moment, I don’t have a problem with offering them a hand.
What would a kind person do? Maybe by bringing your son something you’re teaching him to be kind and help people when they need it.
Maybe you’re teaching him to be irresponsible and needy because there will always be someone to bail him out when something goes wrong.
Every situation is what you make of it. The sign doesn’t know either of you.
The guy who wrote the sign sounds like a little bit of a condescending prick. That’s a good lesson: try not to be a prick. And don’t condescend to adults.
I think Dienne has a point. If adults forget something at work, they can usually go home to get it, or go out to buy what they need. Kids on “closed campuses” can’t leave school, so they can’t do that. By also saying that they can’t contact their parents to have them bring what they forgot, the school is giving the kids no recourse to problem-solve. I’m not saying that parents should bail kids out every time, but it seems cruel to say “never help your child out.” Also, do these policies only apply to forgotten items, or do they also extend to true emergencies? What about a small child having a bathroom accident at school, or an adolescent girl starting her period? What about a child sitting in gum, or spilling paint on him-or-herself in art class, or falling in the mud, or getting injured during recess or gym?
When I was in university, I remember one day when I had painting class, and then a rehearsal with my accompanist. During painting, I squatted down to adjust my easel, and in the course of standing back up, I ripped my pants. I put on my coat, pulled it down over the rip, cleaned up my painting things (since painting was an open-ended class where attendance wasn’t mandatory, as long as you finished everything), and then I walked to the school store, with my coat still pulled down over the rip in my pants, and bought a pair of yoga pants, and wore them out of the store, having the cashier ring up the price tag instead of the actual pants. I still made it to rehearsal on time, and my day proceeded as normal. If the university had had a similarly rigid policy, and not allowed me to leave painting early, or call/text my accompanist to cancel/reschedule, or otherwise solve my own problem by stepping away from my class, and/or deviating slightly from my schedule for the day, then I would have had to walk around, embarrassed and cold (since it was winter) with a hole in my pants.
I apologize in advance if I repeat another posters comment because I do not have time to read all 59 first today, usually I read all of them before posting.
I had a dilemma like this last week. After I came home from standing at the bus stop (because apparently a first grader can’t wait for the bus without his own parent– I guess if a man in a white van swooped him up the other parents would just watch helplessly) I noticed his folder on the couch. I do want my son to learn to be responsible for his things, but I also want him to know I am happy to help him out. Rather than driving it to school, I scanned his homework in on my printer and emailed it to his teacher. That way she knows he forgot it and can react appropriately with whatever consequence, if any, his class uses, but he didn’t have to worry that she would think he hadn’t done his homework.
Besides, I’m constantly forgetting my phone and losing my keys, and my son always reminds me or helps me look. How can I not show him the same care and respect as he shows me??
I agree with Jennifer, Lenore. I suspect that sign came about because parents were ALWAYS bailing out their kids. It’s a sign of the times…and not a good one.
Thanks for posting this, Lenore. The thing that bugs me most about this sign is “The Walk of Shame” aspect. That as parents we should be motivated by the fear of what other parents and school administrators think of us as we perform this one small act of kindness. Lighten up, y’all!
I am a little surprised at you. This is a great example of a school trying to teach kids basic responsibility. Do you really think that if this wasn’t happening all the time, they would have made the sign? Nope. The school is probably tired of all the extra work they have to do when their students (clearly not just one!) forget things. Clearly the parents of this school are constantly “helping” their kids. Say thank you to the school because it appears that the parents aren’t teaching the kids responsibility and consequences so once again, the school system is trying to teach it.
From E:
>>”Don’t use your judgment, use ours.”<<
You realize that this website and Lenore's book exists because of the idea that parents need to adjust their thinking in regard to childhood freedom and responsibility? Like straight up — 'read and consider using Lenore's judgement'.
===
I have interpreted Lenore's website and book differently than you have.
It encourages people to use their own judgment with their own children, and not fret over society telling us that we are ruining our children if we make what someone else deems the wrong choice (ranging from not using the right baby monitoring gadgets to allowing your child to take the subway). Additionally, it fights back when government criminalizes imperfect parenting.
Hooray for this President and Headmaster, I’ll chorus it. Sure once in a while something’s forgotten and should be brought in, like medications and such.
But a sign like this, quite professionally set up which costs money to print and mount like that, it’s obvious the Headmaster is addressing what must be a WIDE SPREAD problem at the school and the staff probably can’t do what they need to be doing because they’re playing air traffic control every morning to the helicopter parents hovering in every day with this or that.
I’d bet anyone these boys aren’t the wet noodles staying with mommy and pops until they’re 35+, they’re doing everyone a favor. I’d sign up my own son for this school in a heartbeat.
@andy
“This might be just me, but I don’t like being treated like a child with Great Griffin arguments.”
Yeah, the more I read that sentence the more creeped out I am. Bad enough they’re telling kids to want to “grow up” to be like a puerile kiddie-school mascot. Even worse that they’re selling the same line to the parents.
Thank you Lenore for reminding us that the whole point is there is not one right way to do parenting and for shaming those who try to make it so. Also, I completely agree that children need to be responsible but I hate the idea of holding them to such higher standards than we hold ourselves. If we forget our lunch, phone, etc. we either call and ask someone to bring it to us or go back home and get it (I had to go back for my phone this morning.) Children do not have this option and there is nothing wrong with us as parents making the choice to bring them what’s forgotten, or not, and the school shouldn’t have a “walk of shame” for those who choose to drop off that forgotten item.
In our children’s school…(not in the Unites States)…. for the first half of the year, they allow parents to drop off missed lunches, homework assignments left in printers, musical instruments forgotten in trunks of cars etc. The second half of the year it is not permitted. They also do not permit personal phones in school until the children are in the equivalent of junior high, so unless a parent stumbles upon said forgotten homework/lunch/musical instrument, the child will have to live without it anyway. My kids have been dealing with this system for years and they STILL occasionally will leave something behind. No matter how they plead, they know the drill. I will bring the needed item when I pick them up from school, and not before. That means they eat lunch…just a few hours later and homework turned in late gets a few points knocked off. The repercussions they suffer at school usually get them back on point for at least a few months.
@Linda — sure Lenore’s writing covers those things you list too.
However, this is the name of her book:
“Free-Range Kids: How to Raise Safe, [b]Self-Reliant[/b] Children (Without Going Nuts with Worry)”
If people here don’t like the tone of the sign, so be it. But the message it’s trying to send is exactly what people here talk about all. the. time.
I would be willing to guess that if there was a post that featured a letter from a Teacher saying “Lenore, please tell parents: please don’t bail your kids out when they forget something for school…..” there would be dozens of comments about how parents are helicopters and these kids will never learn self sufficiency.
Again, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Since the school used some sarcasm or snark, everyone is all “how dare they”.
@E, Yep, I get your point.
Encouraging independence and responsibility is definitely a big part of it. And when I first read the sign, I liked it. But reading Lenore’s perspective, I agree with that too. Parenting is so much more nuanced than ALWAYS and NEVER.
I love you, Lenore! YES! So schools, as we know, have become pressurized test centers where every false move is recorded. Forget to get your parents to sign the agenda? Points off! Forget your homework? Points off! Forget your lunch? Okay, may you don’t get points off, but in many cases you get no lunch at all (because cafeteria workers get slammed if they give you a cheese sandwich) and then you are off in space for the afternoon and …points off.
I completely get that this should NOT be a daily occurrence. If it’s happening every day, it’s time for the family to come up with some new routines to ensure that lunch, homework, etc. are at school. But every once in a while, we all forget things. If it’s an honest mistake (maybe we had extra pressure on our morning or we [gasp] went out as a family the night before), yes, I’d save my son losing points for lacking his homework, mainly because I don’t think homework should carry so much weight that it brings your grade down even if you are getting As.
So often we hear that schools want to prepare kids for the “real world.” Well, in the real world I’ll drive myself home to forget something I need for work or have my husband bring it if he’s off. That is the real world. And if I forget my lunch, I can go buy myself a lunch. I don’t go hungry. Why should our kids? No, one meal will not kill them, but some kids really need that mid-day fuel to keep going. My son is a terrible eater and believe me he needs every calorie he can get!
Yeah, I think you’re reading too much into this Lenore. I think this sign is absolutely appropriate if it’s at a school where the majority of the parents would be described as being “helicopter parents.” The school has a carpool lane for crying out loud! – which means there’s a large population of students being chauffeured to and from school instead of taking the bus. Kudos to the school for reminding those parents that their kids will be ok if they aren’t rescued. This is akin to a sign on a playground that says “parents, please feel free to leave your children playing unattended!” I would love to see more signs like this.
@Linda: >> Parenting is so much more nuanced than ALWAYS and NEVER.<<
I agree. And the sign doesn't use either of those words, despite it being in a quote in the post title.
You know, it’s funny. When I was in the 7th grade and below I was constantly losing and forgetting things at school. Now that I’m 60-years-old, I’m much more organized although I do occasionally forget a suspense at work but if it’s extremely important, I make it a point never to forget it.
I think this has to do with a child’s developing brain. Now when I student taught 7th grade years ago, kids were constantly forgetting their homework and leaving it in their lockers. It was frustrating for us teachers because once the bell rang, they were not allowed out in the hallway without a hall pass and if we issued 3 or 4 hall passes per day for students who left their homework in their lockers, we’d get a talking to by the Principal. They did not want a lot of kids running around in the hallway during school time.
Now my viewpoint on this is if your kid OCCASIONALLY forgets his lunch or homework, I see nothing wrong with a parent running it up to school and bailing him out. Even responsible adults can forget something important. But if he’s habitually forgetting these things, he might have to learn the hard way and perhaps after some uncomfortable afternoon hunger pains from not eating lunch and a few butt chewings and F’s from his teacher for not completing his homework, maybe he’ll learn to organize himself a little better. Again, I think a lot of this has to do with brain development and perhaps experience too.
Life is a learning process!
Seems to me that the school might try parent education rather than snark (as much as I love snark). I’ve known a few helicopter parents and none of them thought they were doing something detrimental. For one of my good friends, constantly bailing her son out of things (nothing illegal, but ongoing forgetting of assignments, tests, appointments) meant that she sent him off to college totally unprepared and well, things went very wrong at school. She was so proud of herself when she told me that she had decided he should make all his own doctor, dentist and haircut appointments. He was 21 years old at that point!
A parent education night, which many schools have, would be a great way to talk with parents about these types of issues and what the long-term effects are of continually bailing your child out of things. And if the school office notices serial offenders, then a one-on-one chat with that parent might be helpful.
I agree that this isn’t a always or never type of thing. But having been friends with several school secretaries over the years, some parents are just incredibly entitled and simply don’t see anything wrong with disrupting the school day weekly or daily just to make sure that little Janie or Johnny is never uncomfortable.
Heh, I get what people are saying about items…homework, someone mentioned gym clothes, and things like that. However, excepting for safe lunches for allergy students, I’m not sure I get the big deal. Skipping lunch is a pain and can make someone distracted all day…but it will encourage someone to bring it the next day.
Also, I ate school lunch 95 percent of the time growing up. The only time I brought lunch is if I’d saw a cool lunchbox and begged my mom to spend a couple of their bucks for it. Of course, I’d bring my lunch for maybe a week or two and then the box would sit on a shelf until the next year. I was on subsidized lunch and my parents were determined I take advantage of it. Plus, the novelty of taking lunch in my new lunchbox stopped being cool and got to be a pain to carry around in my pack.
To me this doesn’t look like a dictate but food for thought. Especially if this is a helicopter-heavy place the sentiment is right-on: the sky won’t fall if your kid doesn’t hand in his homework today and he’ll probably learn something from it. (Though I do think using the phrase “walk of shame” shows immaturity on the part of the administration.) If it is a hard-and-fast policy the school is within its rights to uphold it and it likely has more to do with disruption/limited resources than dictating parent styles. If it is not a policy, then parents should feel free to take or leave the advice on the sign as they see fit. After all, no one can *make* you feel shame.
I get that this is food for thought and a reminder our children need to learn personal responsibility and accept consequences. There are kids out there who will blame their mom or parent when they forgot something with a “You didn’t pack my textbook in my backpack.” But mistakes happen even with the best laid plans.
And what about schools making mistakes? I send in school/hygene supplies at the beginning of the year for all of my children that cost several hundreds of dollars. The school supply list is for the calendar school year and yet…they run out. We need to send in extra supplies, routinely. I get emails for desperate pleas for tissues or wipeboard markers.
Do I refuse to send in any extra supplies because they should have planned better and these email pleas are akin to “The Email of Shame” because no one will starve or lose their starting position and can use their sleeve as a tissue?
Some kids have rough patches (dying relatives, divorce, abuse, financial problems) and need help and compassion, not snarky signs.
There is a HUGE difference between lacking a sense of responsibility or organization and forgetting something. Refusing to help a child who refuses to take responsibility for their own lunch, homework, equipment may teach them to take that responsibility. Refusing to help a child who lacks organization such that things regularly get left behind in the rush to get out the door in the morning, may motivate that child to get up early, get better organized, etc.
Refusing to help a responsible, well-organized kid who genuinely just forgets something once in a blue moon is just being a dick for no purpose (assuming you can help and just won’t). There is simply no consequence in the world that will make someone NEVER forget anything. Some things are absolutely going to slip your child’s mind as they walk out the door over the course of 13 years of schooling.
Nor is there anything remotely independence inducing in making a responsible, well-organized kid suffer a consequence for something that she can’t possibly rectify, She can’t go home to get what was left behind. She can’t go into the school kitchen and cook her own lunch. She can’t go out and buy what was left behind. All you are doing is giving the child the unreasonable stress/expectation of needing to be absolutely perfect 100% of the time.
My 10 year old gets herself up for school in the morning, gets ready, makes her breakfast, determines if she wants home or school lunch, makes her lunch if necessary, keeps track of her own schedule to know if she needs to bring stuff for track practice, gets stuff for track practice and puts it in my car (she meets me at my office after school and I take her to practice), leaves on time for school, rides her bike to school, plays on the playground after school with her friends, leaves in sufficient time to be home on time, does her homework, and does her chores EVERY SINGLE DAY without me doing a thing. She has not had a single tardy. She has not had a single missed homework assignment. If in the midst of doing all this she accidentally forgets something, damn right I will bring it to her if I possibly can. It happens once or twice a year.
“Skipping lunch is a pain and can make someone distracted all day…but it will encourage someone to bring it the next day.”
But that is the thing … you can’t encourage someone to never, ever forget anything at all ever for even a single day over a 13 year period. Things occasionally get forgotten. If you kid is constantly leaving his/her lunch, it shows a problem that letting them go hungry a day or two may solve. Forgetting something here or there does not.
Right on, Lenore! So many of these internet debates revolve around what the best “policy” is in a given circumstance, when in fact, there shouldn’t *be* a policy at all! There should just be a bunch of ordinary people, in ordinary mundane circumstances, making ordinary mundane decisions, as they see fit in the given situation. And those decisions can be *different* from one another! Yay, America! It drives me nuts, every time I start reading comments on practically any issue in the news, so many people mistake what they would do in a particular situation for what “should” be done in a given situation. What a solipsistic world we are living in!
Cannot agree more. My son’s school is “teaching” both parents and kids the same “lesson”. However, the teachers themselves do not fulfill their duties frequently – but nothing happens. I am always reluctant to complain, since I believe that it would shed a bad light on my child… Shame. Often I fell as if teachers “preach water, but drink wine”.
When we have been kids, virtually all parents worked and therefore parent bringing in forgotten things would be extremely rare. Unless you had baby sibling, both parents were at work and there were no cell phones to call them. We were not a bunch of super organized kids – many kids forgot something once in a while and some of them were in trouble because of that constantly. The only kids who never forgot anything tended to have controlling parents who were checking their bags every day.
Not helping your kids is not a guaranteed way to make them organized and non-forgetful, because that is how were were raised and we were not perfect.
I too agree with Dienne’s point. Kids often don’t have (the same) access to whatever plan B an adult would use to solve the problem.
@andy- When I forgot lunch I’d just mooch an unwanted apple off my friends who gave up uneaten food or I’d buy school lunch for less than a dollar. Now there’s strict “no sharing food” rules and lunch accounts are computerized with balances. It’s not like my child can just eat half of her bff’s pbj sandwich and get through the day. Problem solving these minor mishaps is against school’s rules. The schools are creating their own problems.
If the kid is disorganized and constantly forgets things, I don’t think punishments are enough to change them. Raising kids is not just about punishments and not even primary about punishments and consequences.
Better way I think is to teach kid to be organized: either insist on bag being prepared in the evening before, ask about homework on leaving and force to kid to double check bag or encouraging the kid to put repeated remainder into his/her phone. Not just punishing kid for not doing right thing, but also being specific in what is the right thing to do. I would do it this way for some time and then again loose control to see whether habits sticked.
I am not saying that every parent should do the above, this discussion alone mentioned several kids who manage great on their own. However, when the kid is systematically forgetful, disorganized and clearly does not have the right skills, helping him/her to figure out how to be more organized might be more productive. It is like teaching kids anything else – first you let them figure things out by themselves, but if they don’t we drop them hints and tell what to do.
Also, the kids develop in different speed and while it is good parenting and reasonable to expect 12 years old to manage all those things alone, the same expectation is not reasonable for many 6-7 years old. And no matter how many times that 6 years old boy suffers consequences, he simply might not there yet to be able to manage on his own.
Everyone forgets something from time to time.
When our kids were young they each received one “Get Out of Jail Free” Pass. I was willing to help them out once a year (I would probably have given in twice but no one asked).
Everyone needs help every now and again.
@lollipoplover
“When I forgot lunch I’d just mooch an unwanted apple off my friends who gave up uneaten food or I’d buy school lunch for less than a dollar. Now there’s strict “no sharing food” rules”
Yeah, we did that. Usually it didn’t involve anybody forgetting anything, it was just that certain people didn’t like certain foods so they gave to someone else who did.
No-sharing-food rules? Left, right, left, right, yessir, yessir, three bags full, sir …
@lollipoplover We were given warm lunches in school – parents paid for them once in a month. I find that setup more practical both for parents and kids :). Besides, most kids cant focus and misbehave more when they are hungry, so it might be more pleasant for whoever is dealing with them afternoon too.
@BL-
Yes, no food sharing rules (mainly for allergies) and parents need to sign nightly homework logs. So if parents are discouraged from coming to the rescue and students need to learn responsibility, why do I have to (I usually forget and my kids have signed for me) sign this stupid log every night?? Shouldn’t the student just sign it?
“The sign is communicating to parents that they realize kids aren’t perfect and the price of missing items is not going to be punitive.”
Where does the sign communicate that the price of missing items is not going to be punitive? It communicates that the price of missing items is not going to be death or life-altering, but not that the child is not going to get some sanction for not having the items. My child may not starve if she doesn’t have lunch, but she will be hungry, distracted and grumpy all afternoon. That is punitive. My child is not going to fail out of school for forgetting a single homework assignment, but she may get a zero on that assignment which would then drop down her grade. That is punitive. My child may not lose her opportunity to play at Carnegie Hall if she forgets her instrument, but she may have to sit out the concert she has been working hard for over the last several weeks. That is punitive.
None of these are horrible, life-altering consequences, but simple forgetfulness in an otherwise responsible kid doesn’t demand any punitive consequences. It may necessitate punitive consequences if nobody is available to bring the item, but it doesn’t demand them. Lenore is not saying that you should bring your children their stuff every time they forget it, but that there is nothing wrong with bringing things to your children who occasionally forget.
“We were given warm lunches in school — parents paid for them once in a month. I find that setup more practical both for parents and kids :).”
Those of us with picky eaters know that doesn’t work. She has greatly improved, but there are not things my daughter will eat offered every day. And contrary to popular sentiment, a child will not eat a lunch she hates because not eating is always an option. While a person will not allow themselves to starve to death with food available, as the sign so snarkly points out, a child is not going to starve by missing lunch. She will be hungry and grumpy, but not dead.
And why should I pay for a lunch that my child won’t eat when there is a perfectly good lunch that she will eat sitting on the counter?
Donna — I’m just guessing that in a school that has a “headmaster”, that they have some accommodations made for children without lunches. My public school has that. They do not let the child go without food.
I did not say there would not be consequences…I said they wouldn’t be punitive.
And for whomever said this should be information that is conveyed to parents on a parent night — what would make you think that they don’t? If the school went to the time/trouble to have this sign created, I can only presume it’s a theme they are trying to stress with parents. And perhaps in those person-to-person communications, they can go on about all the asterisks that are common sense and being discussed here. Since I don’t know the President and Headmaster, it would be foolish for me to presume that the snark was not tongue in cheek. Maybe they are jerks or maybe they have a sense of humor that most parents ‘get’.
Again — I would LOVE for the parent that called me at my home to have heard this kind of message from teh school. She got my # from the mommy network) and asked that I make special arrangements so that her kid could get a quarter’s worth of extra credit turned in before the end of the term (days away). I was a volunteer!
I think I’m confident enough to know what makes sense for my kids and not feel “shamed” if I brought him his lunch or assignment on a rare occasion. But there are certainly parents (like the one I described) that needs help and encouragement adjusting their methods.
“I’m just guessing that in a school that has a “headmaster”, that they have some accommodations made for children without lunches. My public school has that. They do not let the child go without food.”
True, but food and food that my child will eat are two very different concepts. If I forget my lunch, I am not handed sushi (a food I detest) and told to eat it or go hungry. Why would I treat my child that way? And why should I pay for a meal that my child will not eat when I have a perfectly good meal that she will eat sitting on the counter at home?
“I said they wouldn’t be punitive.”
Being hungry unnecessarily isn’t punitive? Getting a zero on an assignment unnecessarily isn’t punitive? Not being able to play on a concert unnecessarily isn’t punitive? All those things are punitive. They are not life-altering, but they are certainly punitive.
“And perhaps in those person-to-person communications, they can go on about all the asterisks that are common sense and being discussed here.”
So now we ALL have to have discussions at parent’s night and person-to-person meetings to not only discuss not bringing things in, but also to discuss all the many, many astericks. Wouldn’t it make a whole helluva lot more sense to simply set up a discussion with the parents who consistently bring in items for their kids and leave the rest of the parents alone?
“But there are certainly parents (like the one I described) that needs help and encouragement adjusting their methods.”
Sure and those people should be addressed by the Principal when they bring items in. A sign like this is not going to discourage them. A general discussion of all those astericks is not going to discourage them as they will always see themselves as an asterick. A Principal frankly discussing their behavior personally may discourage them. And that is a big may.
I am a 15 year old son who is a “rule follower.” He makes lists, sets iphone alarms & never, ever forgets anything. One morning when he was in middle school, we got all the way to school when he realized that he had his backpack but not his computer bag…and he had a test in two hours which needed to be taken on the laptop. Could I have told him to “learn his lesson?” No, I was a compassionate Mom. I immediately drove home and back to school with the computer. It took another 2 hours to complete. He picked up the computer 5 minutes before his test was supposed to start. In the 3 years since that has happened, my son has never forgotten anything again. He learned his lesson without getting a zero on a test!
@Donna We had option to sign off for a day/week or not to buy that monthly lunch. It is just that almost all bought. There were some old teachers that forced smaller kids to eat if lunch was paid (and we developed various contra-tactics), but it would not be issue at 10 years old. We had no rules that would prevent you to bring own food and eat that. Our school system had major faults, but was not that bad about eating.
The let them be hungry advice is something that works on small kids who just hope for something better, experiment with refusing food or are afraid to try new food. It worked great on my kids, because they were rarely really disliking the taste. I do not think it is relevant when the kid is at school age.
Donna — I don’t disagree with your viewpoint at all in regard to your kid.
But I can’t begin to know the teacher/staff experience at this school. Perhaps the sign was a jump the gun tactic? Or maybe they want to make some public commentary so that everyone is hearing the same thing and people aren’t continuing a trend because they don’t want little billy to get ANY points off their assignment.
We don’t know if a late assignment is a zero or 3 points?
And when I said “person to person” I mean — actually direct communication from staff to parents in addition to the signs — I was thinking in a general meeting as opposed to a sign with limited space.
I think if a school is feeling like their days are being disrupted by parents who are doing this — it’s certainly their prerogative to try to curb the behavior.
I’ll use a different example. When my kids were in competitive/travel sports, there were always the parents who behaved badly on the sidelines. Sometimes the best method of curbing that behavior was to talk to both the specific parent (and child) AND to address all the parents at a team meeting. Then the parent who was the loud mouth knew that EVERY set of parents heard the guidelines of parent behavior. No chance of playing dumb on what the expectations were. Most times, the parent modified their behavior (at least for a period of time) because it was communicated publicly.
Look — I have brought my kids stuff at school. AND I’ve chosen not to. No where on that sign does it say never. Everyone that’s given a good reason for why they would do it has every right to do it (and even if they don’t have a good reason lol). If you know you aren’t a crutch then the teachers/staff do too.
@E It don’t think that “help and encouragement adjusting” is accurate description of the message. Why do people use euphemisms like that when what they really want to say “tell off, shame or revenge by being condescending to them “?
There is nothing wrong with telling off somebody in appropriate situation, for example telling off the parent that called you home to get something special. Sometimes people wont back off unless you tell them off very clearly. Those people wont be stopped or changed by funny message – the most overbearing were not stopped by tons of social messages before. The message just someone feel good for getting back to them.
Parents who fail to maintain boundaries to that level are different problem then the ones who are bringing in lunch once a year.
The biggest puzzling thing here is that many times this forum is used to discuss behavior that is not necessarily helpful in the big picture and that the ‘keeping up with the Joneses’ is making more and more parents moving in that direction.
So color me surprised that an entity that does nothing but serve families is being criticized for trying to stem the very tide (helicoptering) that is always discussed here.
I remember when my oldest was in first grade. I thought he’d had a good year in K and when I arrived at our neighborhood pool after first grade started, I realized that every other Mom (in our friendly group) knew their kid’s reading score and what that meant. I remember feeling odd that a) I didn’t even know what my kid’s score was yet, and b) that his was much lower than most of this set of kids once I found out. My immediate thought was I was not being a supportive/involved enough part because I had no clue. Sometimes it’s nice for the school to let us all breath a little. Like Warren said, if you’re not a parent who CAN get to school to bring their missing items, you don’t even have that luxury. Your child just has to deal with the less than desired lunch (or missing points).
@andy — LOL now you are blaming ME? You don’t even know what I did (or didn’t) tell her.
This has been a few years, but I believe I had to be at school that day for a parent/teacher conference (again, end of quarter or semester) and I mentioned what I’d been asked to do and what she (the teacher) preferred. The teacher told me not to worry about it and didn’t even send the papers home to me. She said they’d deal with it. The end.
So yeah, a teacher saying “this isn’t how the enrichment program works” probably helps address the demanding parent — they don’t have the ability to tell someone off.
But ughhhhhh, my point of mentioning her was because if my limited involvement in being in a classroom shows what parents will do is any indication, then I can certainly see this becoming a trend and nuisance. It wasn’t about my specific experience and what I said to her, lol .
@E Where exactly did I blamed you? I said that it would be appropriate situation to tell someone off. I did not said that you did it, nor did I said that you failed for not doing so. Just that if you would told her off at that moment, I would not had issue with that. For that matter, I would had no issue with you not telling her off either.
E –
This sign just has the feel of zero-tolerance rules to me, even if there is no real zero-tolerance (I have no idea if “Walk of Shame” means that parents are still allowed to deliver things but are shamed by the school or they are not allowed to deliver things and are shamed by having to return to the car with their items still in their hands). It is no different than malls banning kids under 18 because some kids under 18 are a pain in the ass and they would rather ban everyone than simply deal with the pains in the ass.
This sign doesn’t discourage anyone who would need to be discouraged. A parent who drops off their kid’s homework every day is not going to be shamed by a sign. On the other hand, a parent who is a rule follower would probably not bring things in even if their situation met all of the exceptions that we are talking about. My kid is an EXTREME rule follower (to the point that I often try to encourage her to break rules) and this sign would completely freak her out if she forgot something and cause way unnecessary stress.
Further, the sign is just plain rude and not how a school should interact with their parents. It essentially shames EVERYONE who brings something in, no matter how reasonable. There is nothing in that sign that indicates to me that ANY bringing of ANYTHING is considered acceptable by the school. In fact, it says very plainly that none is acceptable. While I would do it anyway if I thought I had a valid reason because my kid is more important than how a school makes me feel, I shouldn’t be made to feel that I am a horrible parent who is stifling my child’s independence for doing it.
Donna — thanks for the reply.
Guess it just proves that everyone’s impressions and life experiences don’t lead them to the same place and opinion.
Oh — last comment on the sign itself. Where I live, there are not elementary school “teams” for anyone to get kicked off of. In fact, in our district, you have to be in 7th grade to be on team.
@andy-
“We were given warm lunches in school — parents paid for them once in a month. I find that setup more practical both for parents and kids.”
That sounds lovely. I’m pretty sure you are not in the US. Our school district contracts with the same food supplier that provides the prisons with meals. All of the food is made elsewhere and reheated at lunch time. It is not a fresh, warm lunch, It is microwaved and processed. My kids are not picky eaters at all but describe the food as inedible. The Walking Tacos (taco meat served inside a bag of Doritos) is nicknamed Walking Diarrhea.
I’ve dropped off 1 lunch in the past 8 years for 3 children combined.
I would do it again without hesitation if asked and have zero shame.
Obviously this is some kind of old school private prep school teaching boys to be “independent men.” Seriously, “walk of shame”? While somewhat overlapping free range philosophy, one gets that impression that the boys who forget their homework are bent over and “taught a lesson.”
I agree. I used to deliver forgotten items to my son every so often (he has ADD – built-in forgetfulness) but always with a warning that he needed to take responsibility for this because I could not be his savior every time. He really did try to improve, and I didn’t bail him out every time.
By the “friendly headmaster.”
lol. Yes, I agree. It’s always one extreme to another. People have forgotten about “compromising”. We all deserve a break once in a while. Kids are no different.
Though it’s never a good idea to spoil and coddle children, being constantly tough on them is just as bad. The learn to have less empathy. That one should never compromise, and that it’s THIS WAY or the highway. Life is different for everyone. One method may not work as well for others.
It’s about all about balance. There is room for a disciplined child, while still not breaking their spirit. They can learn to grow up care free, but at the same time, with respect for everything and everyone around them. As well as understanding that they have to earn their keep, before enjoying it. These are the values lacking in children and parenting these days.
I am 67. My mother taught me that it is better to give than to receive
But today’s feminist mothers are by implication saying, ‘It is better to receive than to give.
Today, everything is done for children. They are chauffeured everywhere. Parents coach sports.
They get cultural exchanges and field trips-and travel to other countries.
When I wanted to travel, Mother said, “Travel is a luxury, Wait until you are earning your own living, and can pay for your transportation, meals and hotel bills.
She added, ‘You appreciate things more, if you work for what you want-instead of everything just given to you-on a silver platter.”
@Vaughan Evans Why exactly do you blame feminism for driving kids everywhere and parents coaching sports? I did not heard that feminism was pushing car culture on America before nor that it somehow forced parents to coach sports. I mean, it made women more likely to have career and be less available for child and home centered activities, not more available.
Yeah — that’s certainly an opinion that I hadn’t expected. Feminism in play here?
I guess school lunches have changed…or they’re different here in South Georgia. My elementary school had a huge kitchen (at least that’s what my 6-12yo self thought). I remember shelves of food on rolling racks-we had a bit of a view from the serving line. You could buy an extra chocolate milk or pizza slice. It could be different now. It has been 24 years since I had a school meal and I don’t remember what my ex-gf’s kids ate at school. (I rarely, if ever, picked them up at that time or talked to them about meals.) I remember 24 years ago they were very tasty. (Unless it was a day where the serving was something I didn’t like. It was rare, but it happened.)
Maybe the rules for the benefit of allergy-prone kids has changed things since then.
Has anyone noticed I use a lot of parentheses? (sp?)
David
@ Vaughn – not feminist. More like competitive parenting.
@ David – Where I live in California, our elementary and middle schools don’t have cafeterias, lunch ladies, etc. The lunch program is run by the parent clubs, with parent volunteers, and the food is pre-ordered from various local restaurants. Usually the ordering period is two to three times per year, you pay in advance, and there are no changes allowed. It’s quite the operation, and a source of revenue for the parent clubs. Without it, all the kids would have to rely solely on their own bag lunches. And if a kid forgets his lunch, he’d have to rely on the sympathy of the volunteers that day to give him a lunch (assuming an extra was available due to a kid being absent).
Especially in an age where homework is graded – or where a child is struggling academically – sometimes that forgotten item is pretty vital. I had to be a helicopter parent when my son was flailing and the teacher was not interested in helping him catch up. If I had not intervened, he would have failed, and not because he wasn’t smart enough or engaged. Now that he is settled, I’ve backed off and I let him face the consequences of forgetting. Let’s assume parents know how to parent!
My friends are raising their granddaughter who is in the first grade. Grandpa often drops Bevan off at school late because he’s not ready to leave the house when she is. The child has served 16 days of after school detention because of it. She is sad, bewildered and now says she hates her teacher, her principal and school in general.
In my mind several people in this case need punishment and none of them is six years old.
Depends on the situation. Most of the time I’m on the tough love side, but certain circumstances I will rescue them, especially if the problem wasn’t their direct negligence. (Sometimes mommy forgets to buy lunch food!)
I’m all for moderation and letting the kids be responsible for their own stuff.
Have you read the Excellent Parenting Book called “Excellent Sheep” by William Deresiewicz? Free Press, 2014.
I agree with Lenore. I was not a sheep of a mom and my son was not a sheep of a kid. I would do the opposite of what principals like that one directed–as a student and later as a parent. My son is grown now. He frequently thanks me for the independent up-bringing he was given.
Yes, I drove his sneakers to school once: on a day he was training for a big race. Inconvenient, yes. But it was a sign to us both that we cared deeply about each other. What’s so wrong about that?
What gave us this modern idea that cookie-cutter kids were the desirable norm for our culture? And that lack of kindness and compassion is less desirable in parents than mean-spiritedness?
Boring!
This is a situation where you need to make judgement calls based on the specifics of each situation.
I have driven something forgotten to school for my child
– Once his water bottle, because he is in a portable classroom and has no regular access to a water fountain. He also drinks his water bottle at lunch because he cannot drink the milk his school provides (allergy) and does not like juice boxes.
– Once his lunch. Because over half the week he cannot eat the lunch his school provides. I hear all this crap about how schools are oh-so-concerned about allergies, but my son’s school has multiple days a week with no cheese-free option–see milk allergy above–and they will not accommodate his needs for a dairy free option either. I have been told multiple times if both entrees have cheese, then he needs to bring his own lunch. They will not offer a cheese-free option.
I want my kid to be an independent real human who sometimes makes mistakes and isn’t afraid to occasionally ask for or offer help, not some fantastic Ayn Randian romance trope. Frankly, that lunatic’s scribblings have ruined a generation.
No, my wife and I don’t fetch things for our kids, but it isn’t because we think it will make them weak. They just outnumber us, so we have to have systems in place or we would be run ragged. I hope the kids never feel they couldn’t ask for help in a pinch. I hope nobody ever feels that they can’t ever receive or offer help. Yikes! What a truly awful way to live.
I think what basically rubs me wrong about this sign is that it treats forgetfulness as some kind of moral failing rather than a skill. I’m dyspraxic, and thus quite forgetful even now. I didn’t ever forget stuff for school, because my parents and I worked out a system by which it was easy not to forget it.
That skill has served me well for later life: Putting stuff you’ll need each day into a set position, making sure everything for a trip is in one place as soon as you realize you need it. That’s the way to teach how to overcome forgetfulness.
However, unless you’re trying to shame parents into teaching kids this, this sign isn’t going to help. Kids aren’t forgetting stuff because they’re irresponsible punks, they’re forgetting stuff because, in my experience, the experience of early start schooling is exhausting to them, and because they haven’t developed successful coping mechanisms.
While obviously you need to teach kids this stuff, if a child is constantly forgetting it’d be much more profitable to actually talk to the parent individually and work out a strategy with them than treat it as if its some moral failing, because it probably isn’t.
Also, frankly, its tone rubs me the wrong way.
This only makes common sense. Spoiling the child doesn’t help in a situation like this. Embarrassing in front of his peers does make a difference. Why should mom or even dad bring something that was forgotten from one of his children? They have to learn to be responsible. If a parent has to bring something to their child, I feel it should go to the office and they will give it to their student. If it is their lunch, and in a lunch box, put it in a plain brown bag and give it to the teacher to give to their student. No one would be the wiser and you child will respect that.
My kids have walked to school alone since early elementary and still do as high schoolers. Even when it’s pouring they don’t even ask. However, there are days when they are a little tired from too much homework, too many tests, being a teen. Giving them a ride every few months when they need a little extra that morning isn’t going to make them entitled, spoiled 20-somethings. I agree- don’t demand more of them than we demand of ourselves. I have no problem asking a friend or colleague or family member to help out on the odd occasion when I forget something. Resilient people should be the goal. Not a perfect track record of adherence. Dogma kills. On the other hand, I like that the school is trying to level out some parental behavior here-however rigid it appears.
I must say you are way off target on this. A school actually takes up a position that is on the side of Free range kids and you are against.??!!.
It’s very similar to my years as Scout and then Scoutmaster where a time honored practice of not allowing things like Mommy carrying Johnny’s pack to the camp site from her car.. etc.. “Never do for a Scout what he can do for himself. ” a
Who knows what’s going on now in the modernized feminized Scouting scene.
We never allowed parents to bring something they forgot either.. – medical necessity aside..
@Doug “I must say you are way off target on this. A school actually takes up a position that is on the side of Free range kids and you are against.??!!.”
When you divide whole range of opinions into us and them and then uncritically accept everything one of “us” say, then I gladly leave your team. Blindly agreeing with someone just because he is vaguely under “our” flag is just being a sheep. Refraining from criticizing one of “us” even when you disagree, because he is “us” is just shows that you are driven by fear.
“It’s very similar to my years as Scout and then Scoutmaster where a time honored practice of not allowing things like Mommy carrying Johnny’s pack to the camp site from her car.. etc.. “Never do for a Scout what he can do for himself. “”
I am sure adult moms appreciated and accepted your inherent superiority. Nothing makes adult women more appreciative of a club then overly confident young man telling her what she is allowed to carry out of her own car.
“Who knows what’s going on now in the modernized feminized Scouting scene.”
Tell me again the fairy tale about scouts not being an arrogant bunch of jerks.
Sometimes it is just that adults, both men and women, don’t appreciate “friendly headmasters” or you telling them how to organize tiny details of their lives or pretending those tiny details have dubious far reaching consequences.
@FBH: “I think what basically rubs me wrong about this sign is that it treats forgetfulness as some kind of moral failing rather than a skill. ”
Except it doesn’t do that.
If you run a school that has a rash of parents, as a matter of habit, bring things to kids that for whatever reason are not brought when the kid arrives at school, it’s their prerogative to try to shift the culture. Just lake any other efforts a school might make. It’s using the carpool sign (our school had one to communicate things too) to try to let parents know that is happening too often.
I’m projecting here, but if this is a boys only school with a headmaster, I’m guessing it’s likely to be an expensive, private school. There are likely parents with flexible schedules, probably many with a parent at home, which allows “bringing things to school” as no big deal and not a huge inconvenience. If you were being a skeptic, you could even wonder if some parents enjoy dropping in to see what’s happening and/or rub shoulders with staff.
If the school is hinting at a ‘failing’ , it’s on the parents for being a crutch, not the kid for forgetting.
I am not worried about my daughter’s academic abilities — I am concerned about raising an empathetic, compassionate child. And also, a child that doesn’t let her group or team down. If I can, I might drop something off for her, or do a chore for her because she is working on a big assignment but more often I will not do things for her that she can do for herself, that she has neglected to prepare for, or that I simply don’t have the time for.
I think rather than a single ironclad rule for parents and or teachers, we ought to let parents and teachers make some of their own decisions. Last year, in 3rd grade, my daughter forgot to finish a few questions on her homework or did a sloppy job and she was asked to stay in from recess to rectify the situation (she never asks or wants help with her homework and we only sign a weekly log when the work comes home). In another instance my daughter didn’t have time to do her nightly reading–the teacher knew that she routinely read more than the allotted amount of time so told her not to worry about it. Parents and good teachers/staff should be left to use their judgment–sometimes, the results will be imperfect but that is life. Single rules for all occasions typically serve few.
@Tray
Funny, I have been rereading Ayn Rand and other similar authors lately –I think because I am so stunned and put-off by the constant group think that I seem to be surrounded by at work and in the community as a whole. 🙂
Great point, Lenore. We are surrounded by so much “parents these days (read: mothers) are doing it WRONG, they should be doing it do it THIS WAY” that it sounds surprising and refreshing to read something that says “parents should use their judgment, it will be fine either way.”
Nothing wrong with reading Ayn Rand. The forty page soliloquies are difficult, but the only hostility that is found in the books is the stuff you bring yourself.
“If you run a school that has a rash of parents, as a matter of habit, bring things to kids that for whatever reason are not brought when the kid arrives at school, it’s their prerogative to try to shift the culture. ”
I disagree with this completely.
If they are being bothered by a bunch of parents bringing things in such that it is impacting their real jobs, it is their prerogative to shift the culture. But they should have the balls to say THAT and not namby pamby around it. Otherwise, it is absolutely not any schools’ prerogative to tell parents how to parent their children in any respect. Whether it is regulations on how kids get to school or what to pack for lunch/snack or whether we helicopter parent, I am really not sure where the US got the mentality that school administration should have any say whatsoever in how parents parent.
I also wonder if some of this is being driven by how particular schools are run and how much work it is to get the item to the child.
At my son’s old elementary (built 2009), there was extremely controlled access to the school building. Once the kids were in the building, you could only go in through the office, and if you needed to deliver something to your child, either your child had to be called down to the office or a runner had to bring it to the classroom.
My son’s current elementary (build 1996) is an open campus. There’s not even any main building–there are a collection of classroom “pods” which open onto a central outdoors area and playground. The office is vaguely centered among the pods. If I need to drop something off, I go into the office, sign the sheet, and go to my son’s classroom. There’s not even anyone at the main desk where the visitor log is monitoring comings and goings.
And I don’t want to interrupt class either. Both times I had to drop something off for my son, I knocked, popped open the classroom door, held up the item for the teacher to see, and dropped it on the table directly inside the door then left. He will get his hands on it eventually.
“I am really not sure where the US got the mentality that school administration should have any say whatsoever in how parents parent.”
I think you meant to confine this to public schools.
If you’re paying for school (directly, I mean, and not as a taxpayer) you have chosen the school and thus, are complicit in the choices the school makes… including telling you what to do (or not to do.)
If you don’t want that school telling you what to do (or what not to do) don’t put your kids in it.
>>”If you run a school that has a rash of parents, as a matter of habit, bring things to kids that for whatever reason are not brought when the kid arrives at school, it’s their prerogative to try to shift the culture. ”
I disagree with this completely.
If they are being bothered by a bunch of parents bringing things in such that it is impacting their real jobs, it is their prerogative to shift the culture. But they should have the balls to say THAT and not namby pamby around it. Otherwise, it is absolutely not any schools’ prerogative to tell parents how to parent their children in any respect. Whether it is regulations on how kids get to school or what to pack for lunch/snack or whether we helicopter parent, I am really not sure where the US got the mentality that school administration should have any say whatsoever in how parents parent.<<
That's a really good point, Donna, and I think that that kind of straightforwardness could be a good lesson to the kids; albeit an indirect one. After all, there's something to be said for saying what you mean, and asking for what you want or need, instead of tiptoeing around it. I mean, that's not to say that the school should be rude about it, but a message like, "Please help us to ensure that the school day runs as smoothly as possible by keeping middle-of-the-day drop-ins to a minimum" would probably do; maybe with some description of how the normal routine gets disrupted when parents drop in unannounced. Alternatively, maybe the system could be changed so that, rather than pulling kids who forget things out of class, they could be paged to pick up their forgotten items (aside from anything medically necessary) from the office during recess, lunch, or class changes.
This whole thread is so bizarre. My parents never brought things to school if I forget them. It wasn’t a big deal (to be honest I don’t think it ever occurred to me that it was an option), I don’t think they failed to teach me kindness, and I’m sure it wasn’t anything my mom fretted about over coffee with her friends. I think it actually taught me to respect their time.
I don’t see why a parent would need to interrupt his/her day and responsibilities to take something to their kid at school in the middle of the day that, in the grand scheme of things, does not matter. For me it’s less a question of “should I help my kid?” and more a question of “will my child suffer any irreparable harm that makes this a good use of my time?” The answer so far has always been “no”.
To Andy:
“When you divide whole range of opinions into us and them and then uncritically accept everything one of “us” say, then I gladly leave your team. Blindly agreeing with someone just because he is vaguely under “our” flag is just being a sheep. Refraining from criticizing one of “us” even when you disagree, because he is “us” is just shows that you are driven by fear.”
It’s not very apparent how I “uncritically” divided all ranges of opinions into a we vs them.. You must be looking and hoping for that sort of battle.. ‘ If you only knew ‘… is all I can say when you refer to me as a “sheep” driven by fear. LoL
I simply made a point in defense of the position held by the school in question and compared it to a philosophy and practice with which I was familiar – Scouting. True learning can not come with constant babying and goading by overprotective parents – as is the norm now.. Free range philosophy itself is meaningless without a set of practices to go with it. The school is literally not telling parents what they can do and not do , but merely setting up a culture and mindset that encourages a philosophy of learning.
“I am sure adult moms appreciated and accepted your inherent superiority. Nothing makes adult women more appreciative of a club then overly confident young man telling her what she is allowed to carry out of her own car.”
Same answer- I never said or implied I said Mrs Jones stay in your car and don’t touch that gear ! – instead we set the expectation on the young man to be responsible to handle his gear . If you are opposed to that, then you are lost.
“Tell me again the fairy tale about scouts not being an arrogant bunch of jerks.”
The only arrogant jerks I met in Scouting were the whacked out progressive types who say campfires destroy the earth and that its ok for boys to have sex with other boys -against all laws of nature. The traditional side of the house is principled and confident and humble.
I don’t comment often on these blog things, but this is a case where I wish I was face to face with you because I am sure you would not make those ridiculous comments in person to me. You just might be what they call a “troll”.
@Donna — >>But they should have the balls to say THAT and not namby pamby around it. <<
Who is to say that they haven't done that as well?
Can't they do both? Can't they talk to parents of bully kids as well as post signs about anti-bullying in the hallway or send notes home? I mean, we have no reason to believe that the school hasn't done a number of things.
I would think that most educators (I've got 3 siblings that made careers in education) would say what happens in partnership with school isn't just parenting — it's teaching too.
Parents can do whatever they want, clearly. I'm just not at all offended at a sign like this.
I read the sign as a PSA — not a law with consequences.
(beating a dead horse by now but…)
Put another way — perhaps a sign like this reinforces non-helicopter behavior to those parents who don’t (or can’t) be their kid’s crutch. Someone wrote about “competitive parenting” in an earlier post. Maybe this lets the parents who don’t abuse this kind of thing that they are doing the right thing.
So sure — maybe the worst offenders need more than a sign. But this can confirm what the rest of the parents are doing is supported by the school.
@E Speaking about which, anti bullying flyers are another piece of communication that is completely pointless :). It amounts to yelling at parents “we are good people around here”. It wont change bullies nor their victims.
I think that many people simply dislike namby pamby from someone they do not know and many here strongly dislike principals or whoever telling them what to do in what they see as their own parenting/life. More honest communication elsewhere, if it exists, does not remove namby pamby from here.
Fair or not, people make assumptions about you based on how communicate and message like this makes people assume negative. If the administrator wrote half funny message “make your effing son do his effing homework”, some would chuckle and others would dislike it strongly. (I am a bit more tolerant of that then of namby pamby, but that is really just personal preference).
I also very strongly disliked “don’t attempt to fix things even if you think it is genuinely your fault”. If I caused someone else problem I will try to fix it if possible. Not doing so is wrong, as in against values my parents raised me with. If I would cause you not to have lunch, I would do my best to give one to you too. The “victim” being a child does not change a thing – if I broke it I should fix it. In a sense, it is about me and not about the kid.
“Put another way — perhaps a sign like this reinforces non-helicopter behavior to those parents who don’t (or can’t) be their kid’s crutch. ”
Judging from responses, it seem to strike on peoples rebelliousness much more then it reinforces non-helicopter behavior.
Besides, when you frame forgotten things as “The Walk of Shame” anxious parent will triple check bag at home to make sure nothing is forgotten. There is even less independence in that. The same goes for strict consequences for forgetfulness in school – if being forgetful makes kid have worst grades, parents will take butt in more. Because grades matters to them.
@Doug Your point amounted to “you should not disagree with message, because the message could be interpreted in freerange way”. After rereading it, it still does.
The only culture the message is setting up is a culture of talking in childlish way, using “your son can become Great Griffin” or “walk of shame” as arguments and other pseudo arguments designed to be cute. Not much adult by any measure. The same goes for calling eight years old “young man”. It is just cute appeal on emotions and nothing more.
“Free range philosophy itself is meaningless without a set of practices to go with it.”
See, and I don’t care about you, friendly administrator or other self imposed soul setting up a set of practices. I do not need everyone here to follow the same practices as I do. Exactly as I do not care about helicoptering doctor setting up a set of safety practices where my child can bike. I don’t care about people who fear far reaching consequences in tiny minor parenting decisions. There is no difference in whether you are paranoid the kid will kill itself while being alone for five minutes or whether you are paranoid that kid will grow up completely dependent because someone helped him once. Both are delusional.
I think it comes back to the respect with which we treat children (or don’t). There were a few times when I was in law school that I forgot something important and my husband, who was an undergrad with a different schedule at the time, brought the item to me. This is the kind of thing you do for people you care about–take care of each other. If I am deserving of that kind of respect and courtesy from my family, why would my school-aged daughter not be?
>>Judging from responses, it seem to strike on peoples rebelliousness much more then it reinforces non-helicopter behavior.<>Besides, when you frame forgotten things as “The Walk of Shame” anxious parent will triple check bag at home to make sure nothing is forgotten. There is even less independence in that. The same goes for strict consequences for forgetfulness in school — if being forgetful makes kid have worst grades, parents will take butt in more. Because grades matters to them.<<
Could be true – but at least it would limit the disruption of that taking place during the school day to the staff/student/teachers which presumably is part of a desire to reduce it.
“Judging from responses, it seem to strike on peoples rebelliousness much more then it reinforces non-helicopter behavior.”
Well that wasn’t at all my response so maybe that’s how it hit some people but not all. As a 2 working parent family, at times far from where our children’s schools were — I didn’t always have the option to be the crutch. It’s possible that I wouldn’t even realize something was left behind because we all left out the door at the same time. I wasn’t likely to do it very often anyway, but signs like this sometimes ease the working Mom (speaking for myself) mind. I already couldn’t get into the classroom to volunteer as often as a lot of my kids’ friends’ parents.
“Besides, when you frame forgotten things as “The Walk of Shame” anxious parent will triple check bag at home to make sure nothing is forgotten. There is even less independence in that. The same goes for strict consequences for forgetfulness in school — if being forgetful makes kid have worst grades, parents will take butt in more. Because grades matters to them.”
Could be true – but at least it would limit the disruption of that taking place during the school day to the staff/student/teachers which presumably is part of a desire to reduce it.
“Fair or not, people make assumptions about you based on how communicate and message like this makes people assume negative”
Well since none of our kids go to that school and don’t know the headmaster and his personality, methods of communication etc, aside from this 1 sign, it’s pretty foolish to worry about how random people on the internet feel about it him.
I mean, if I was a school or principal being deemed “negative” by randos on the internet over 1 sign, I wouldn’t care at all.
If he’s got feedback from the people who actually pay the tuition, that’s something different.
@Doug: “that its ok for boys to have sex with other boys -against all laws of nature”
I actually hear this behavior is fairly common among male sheep. Maybe sheep aren’t natural in your book?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
“Who is to say that they haven’t done that as well? Can’t they talk to parents of bully kids as well as post signs about anti-bullying in the hallway or send notes home?”
Huh? My comment had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the format of the message and directly addressed the substance of the message itself. Whether they talked to the parents, sent notes home and sky wrote it above the school is completely irrelevant.
“I mean, we have no reason to believe that the school hasn’t done a number of things.”
We have absolutely no reason to believe that the school has either.
“Parents can do whatever they want, clearly.”
While I assume that the school is not going to remove the parents from the premises by force, it makes it pretty damn clear what it wants to happen and that it does not approve of dropping things off. It doesn’t approve of parents doing it every single day or once in the entire school career. It doesn’t approve even if the parent was legitimately the one responsible for the forgotten item. Heck, according to the sign, even if I offer to carry my kid’s lunch to the car because she has to carry a project and then I forget it, I should not bring her her lunch. My refusal to let her suffer the consequence of MY forgetfulness is apparently somehow hindering her independence and sense of responsibility.
“‘I am really not sure where the US got the mentality that school administration should have any say whatsoever in how parents parent.’
I think you meant to confine this to public schools.
If you’re paying for school (directly, I mean, and not as a taxpayer) you have chosen the school and thus, are complicit in the choices the school makes… including telling you what to do (or not to do.)
If you don’t want that school telling you what to do (or what not to do) don’t put your kids in it.”
No, I did not mean to confine it to public schools. I actually think it applies MORE to private schools than public schools. Private schools are customer-satisfaction driven and attended by families with schooling options. A private school can only demand that which its customers are willing to give. If parents didn’t concede that the school can tell them how to parent by continuing to enroll their children, schools could not tell them how to parent.
Public schools, on the other hand, deal with many people with no schooling options. Many of their customers have no ability to tell them no to anything. If they said “anyone whose parents bring in a forgotten lunch will be expelled,” the parents have little choice but to comply because the only realistic alternative is being arrested for failing to educate their children (at least until the lawsuit resolves the issue in the parent’s favor). They haven’t voluntarily conceded the authority; they are being forced into conceding authority.
“The only arrogant jerks I met in Scouting were the whacked out progressive types who say campfires destroy the earth and that its ok for boys to have sex with other boys -against all laws of nature. The traditional side of the house is principled and confident and humble.”
This is “us vs. them” thinking. If you live in wildfire country, you’re going to be leery of anyone who wants to set fire to things on purpose… even if they are 99.9% careful and diligent in their preparations.
And I am not a whacked out progressive who says that it’s ok for boys to have sex with other boys… I’m one of those whacked out libertarian types who says it’s none of my damn business who other people want to have sex with.
Finally, for the claim that it is “unnatural” (presumably because non-procreative sex does not produce offspring), well, it’s natural to do things that are fun even if they don’t produce offspring. Why do you participate in Scouting? Are you expecting offspring as a result?
“No, I did not mean to confine it to public schools. I actually think it applies MORE to private schools than public schools.”
People who pick a private schooling option choose what schools they put their kids into. Presumably, they do so because the school has a proven track record of producing what it is the parents want. You’re paying them for their advice, and guidance. It’s no different from hiring any other professional.
If you don’t want to be told that (results you want) are unlikely unless (a habit you have changes), don’t hire the professional who’s going to tell you that.
If you don’t want to be told that you aren’t going to develop a fit, muscular body unless you change your diet and workout habits, don’t hire that professional trainer.
If you don’t want to be told that you aren’t going to be able to retire comfortably unless you spend less, earn more, or both, don’t hire that professional financial advisor.
If you don’t want to be told that you aren’t going to be able to stay out of prison unless you stop committing serious felonies, don’t hire that professional attorney.
And that’s where the part of the US that partakes in private K-12 education got the mentality that school administration should have any say whatsoever in how parents parent.
It’s also true (though less so) for at least some of the public schools. My daughter had good public schools… because I bought a house near schools that were (and are) very good. (Yes, not everybody has significant choice about where they live, and thus, what public schools their children will attend. Yes, affluence has a direct effect on schools’ performance… when wealthy suburban schools want something the public won’t pay for, they can turn to volunteer fund-raising and seek donations from parents, while poor rural schools have to do without… and the effect is cumulative and self-perpetuating (because affluent parents seek out the schools which can offer their kids more opportunities.)
@James Pollock It may surprise you, but people question and openly defy both professional trainers and attorneys. Professional trainers working in gym (as opposed to sport club) are very careful about what and how they communicate. The richer the customers are, the more careful they are.
Also, while I will listen to attorney when it comes to law, I wont follow her advice on child raising or eating.
Professional financial advisors are usually half-scams to sell dubious financial products. Yes they promise comfortable retirement, but that is just the promise. If you want to do good with money, you have to triple check everything they say.
“And that’s where the part of the US that partakes in private K-12 education got the mentality that school administration should have any say whatsoever in how parents parent.”
It seem to me that most schools are on the helicopter side right now promoting fear of walking to school and running around. Shall we all listen to them because they are administrators? School administration has no special insight about parenting nor is it supposed to have. Especially administrator that was not teaching class for years. Running the school and family is not the same. If they teach, they do have valuable input and can compare behavior of different kids. I will listen to their observations and will consider their advice, but I will not follow all of their advice automatically.
My philosophy is to help my kid out with stuff like this until it looks like it’s becoming a habit.
One thing I don’t do is pack my kid’s lunch in his bag. I feel the “muscle memory” of actually placing the lunch in the bag is important for his remembering to do it every day.
I tend to agree – the real danger is the judgment and the demand that everyone do things the way I think is right, and the precise content matters less. This would be equally problematic if there were people making cell phone videos and ranting and raving every time parents take their kids into the store or don’t send their kids to the park.
“It may surprise you, but people question and openly defy both professional trainers and attorneys.”
Sigh. Why on Earth would think this would surprise me?
“Also, while I will listen to attorney when it comes to law, I wont follow her advice on child raising or eating.”
If you have chosen an attorney who is giving you advice on child rearing or eating, unrelated to your legal affairs, you have chosen poorly. Whose fault is that?
“It seem to me that most schools are on the helicopter side right now promoting fear of walking to school and running around.”
Approximately how many American private schools have you interacted with recently?
“I will listen to their observations and will consider their advice, but I will not follow all of their advice automatically.”
Has someone suggested that you should?
Timely, because yesterday two of my children forgot their wallets which contained their bus passes for the trip home. They also forgot their bank books (Friday is school banking day).
Just so happened that I was off work sick, and on my way out to the doctor, I decided that it would be prudent to drop off the wallets so that there were no dramas while they were trying to get home. I did not, however, drop off the bank books (if you want money in your account, remember to take it next time!).
Normally I’d be at work and no-one would be around to rescue them. But yesterday I chose my own happy medium 😉
Lenore,
I think you have this one backwards. Due to modern helicopter parenting, this form of rescuing occurs too often. This sign is a laudable attempt to get people to think twice about the value of bailing out their children. It is not an attempt to enforce a zero-tolerance policy against parents bailing out their kids.
yeah… my daughter was six she threw a fit and didnt wear a coat….so I said fine dont wear it. ( keep in mind we live in south Texas ) I get a call from her teacher. “Maggie doesnt have a coat” she sound confused and accusing at the same time. I said “I know” She said “It is cold outside” I said “I’m aware” she said ” can you bring her coat for her?”
“No I dont think so” “she was shocked “But recess she will be too cold ” “Yep probably. You can remind her she was sure she wouldnt be cold when she chose not to listen to me about wearing a coat…or send her to the office for recess have a good day” it 62 degrees by the way for all you northern people sooooo you can laugh about how wimpy Texans are.
However, in some circumstances I do run stuff to my kids. They need to know that we have their back and they can trust us.I have even run stuff up for kids who are not mine…”Mom O’hare left her cover and it is inspection is today..can you bring my extra for her”… there is a difference between irresponsibility and a mistake
I liked this post.
I feel like if it’s once a semester your child isn’t learning to be helpless but might be learning that mom or dad will help them when they can.
I’m a fully grown, functioning adult, but there have been times when I have called on my mom (or a friend or neighbor) to come to my rescue.
I think the key is separating out the small moments of forgetfulness from the teachable moments. My older son had to serve a lunch detention this year for tardies. I could have called to excuse them and gotten him out of it, but I didn’t because I felt like it was a natural consequence of his decision making-even though I could have tried harder to wake him up, I suppose.
On the other hand, if he forgets his gym clothes once a semester, I don’t mind running them down if I’m available. Teaching kids to be independent and responsible doesn’t mean you can’t recognize that they’re still kids.
If my kids forget their lunch (OR EAT IT ON THE WAY TO SCHOOL! – Yes, they were doing that!) and I don’t bring it to them I get to pay $2 for a junk food filled hot lunch. So I bring them lunch, although I would PREFER that they just go hungry and learn to be responsible!). I don’t bring them anything else, and have told them that despite living a mere 2 minute drive from school I won’t bring them things like permission slips if they forget.
However if I was the one forgetting I would definitely bring them what they needed.