Our Son, 8, Snuck Out to Walmart at 3:30 a.m. — Now What?

Sometimes, I tell my older children (11 and 8), parents get scared. Even if you are 100 percent certain that you can handle [situation], even if I am 100 percent certain that you can handle it, I’m going to get nervous, because every parent from housecats to humans is a worrier. So, for my sake, please tell me where you’re going and when you expect to be back. If you aren’t sure where you’re going or when you’ll be back, take your phone, so that if I get super worried I can do something besides sitting here in a tizzy wondering if you were eaten by a grue.

Also, I tell them, adults who don’t know you may freak out if they see you in [place] at [time.] That’s why you don’t go downtown until after lunch even if you’ve finished all of your homeschool work early. That’s why my tween can’t take her bike on the same route to the lookout at the edge of town that adult bike commuters use on every workday. (She did–once. A “friend” called the cops, not me, and then the cops, plural, called me.)

Actually going out alone at oh-dark-thirty has never even come up here in coastal Alaska, because bears. :/

You have department stores open at 3 a.m? Damn. …

I wouldn’t yell at the boy….actually, I’d be too shocked to. ..but I think he does need some loss of privilege or whatever minor correction method the parents employ. This was a silly thing to do. It’s probable though that Walmart calling the parents had shock value though, which is why I think any correction applied should be minor.

What a wonderful outcome. So often these things end up with cops getting involved and the parents in serious legal trouble.

Katie wrote, “This boy made a bad decision. He left at night, without permission. My reaction: if he thought that would be okay, then I can’t trust his decision making skills for a while. My guess is that he thought it would be an adventure, and he ignored the little voice telling him that it’s not okay to sneak out of the house at night.”

But he’s a boy! This is how boys act! Some 7 year old girls may have the self control, decision-making, permission-seeking, established-restrictions, etc. etc. of, basically, a little old lady. But a boy may seek adventure, and a kind of self mastery, and it involves things that are, well, not stuff that reasonable adult ladies think is ok. This is normal for boys.

I’m really impressed by the 8-year-old’s dedication to do this for his mother, and I wouldn’t punish him after-the-fact, but I don’t really feel comfortable with a child that young walking that far alone that late at night without notifying anyone first.

If just some of these variables were changed (like if he were walking a short distance at night or if he were walking a long distance in the day after letting someone know) I’d be more okay with it.

Regardless, his parents could very well have gotten in trouble if someone reported the event to the police. And 8 is younger than I’d personally let go on a 3 mile journey alone (assuming this isn’t a path I’ve already walked with him many times). A few years older and I wouldn’t be quite so concerned.

Honestly, I wouldn’t punish the boy. Yes, I think it’d be a good idea to talk to him about not leaving the house without telling anyone, especially at 3:30 a.m., but considering he went to Wal-Mart to buy flowers for his mother, his heart was in the right place. So, I don’t think a barrage of no, don’t, can’t, and lost privileges is in order here. Instead, I’d tell him what he CAN do. No, he can’t go out in the middle of the night to buy flowers for his mother (although that’s a nice thought), but he can definitely use his art supplies to make a nice card, or his laptop (or the family computer) to make a slideshow if he wants to do something nice. I find that kids (and adults) generally respond better when people tell them what they DO want, rather than what they don’t want.

If my kid had done this I’d be pissed – I think every parent would. The distinction, though, is that while it’s definitely a stupid thing to have done, even if well-meaning, it’s just that – a stupid thing that a kid has done. Not cause for CPS to intervene, not cause for calling the cops, probably cause for grounding the kid or withholding privileges or otherwise punishing him, but just that.

I think this is a good story – kid does something dumb, store manager calls the parents, everyone stays calm, kid learns a lesson, no one gets hurt. A good outcome.

Ooh, this is a tricky one. I am super impressed by this kid’s actions:walking three miles in the dark. Safety bonus: he knows the neighborhood! And as has been suggested: he may have done this before.

but, wow, 3 AM? I don’t know if that’s dangerous (probably less so, all the bush – dwelling child predators think the kids are home in bed). But as a parent you like to know the general vicinity of your child.

I’d talk it over with the kid: it’s generally smart for people to know where you are. I wouldn’t give consequences unless he has broken a pre-established rule/curfew. Perhaps it’s time to set a curfew. But depending on reactions here, the boy may have decided midnight escapades should be reserved for later times.

And I hope Mom treasures the flowers–there is still a “pretty cool” element to this story.

Wal-Mart folks: thanks for considering this a youthful adventure that parents just might want to know about instead of the crime of the century.

Is “snuck” a word? I always thought the past tense of sneak was sneaked.
Anyway, I’m curious what “the people from Wal-Mart” said to the dad. Did they let the boy walk back home and then telephone, asking to speak to his parents? Or did they tell the kid to have his father call them when he woke up?
If I were the manager of the store, I wouldn’t let the boy walk home by himself in the wee hours of the morning. I’d call his parents and have them come and pick him up. Not that I believe child molesters would be out roaming the highways and byways, looking for child victims, but there are plenty of drunks on the road after the bars close and they might unwittingly run the kid over.
He sounds like a thoughtful boy who wanted to do something nice to surprise his mom. I don’t think he should be punished, but he should be told not to leave the house alone at night without permission.

“Is “snuck” a word? I always thought the past tense of sneak was sneaked.”

Yeah, why have so many incorrect verbs been brung into English? 🙂

Yeeeah, I’m going to have to go with consequences for this one. I let my kids range all over the neighborhood, I’ve allowed the 9 yo to bike a couple of miles to Walmart with his older friend (11), but, no matter how altruistic his motives, leaving the house in the middle of the night is a big fat NO. There is a difference between “free-range” and “anarchic”. Free-range allows for kids to make choices, learn their limits and push their comfort levels a bit, but WITH parental guidance and wisdom helping them. It shouldn’t be a free-for-all, kids get to do whatever they want, whenever they want, no limits, movement. This kid is not mature or responsible enough to have the privilege of wandering around his neighborhood alone anymore. He broke the house rules and there should be consequences. When my kid took advantage of his freedom to do something he was pretty sure we wouldn’t be happy about, he had to check in with us every time he went to a different friend’s house for a week. We didn’t take away all his freedom, but we put much stronger limits on it until we were sure he could be trusted to follow our rules. (Oh, and to the poster who pretty much said that boys will be boys? Please don’t do that. This isn’t a ” boy ” thing, this is an irresponsible, thoughtless child thing. Acting as though there shouldn’t be consequences because he just can’t help his impulsive nature is a recipe for disaster later in life.)

Sure, talk with the boy. He apparently did not understand that this was not appropriate. And,to be fair, the parents sound like they did not communicate that this was not appropriate. (There is such a thing for parents of not considering that a kid might actually do something that would seem to be way beyond what the child has done before.) Once you have the talk, that is the new rule. If he does it again…yep, he gets in trouble.

I would encourage him to talk about his plans for things like this with the other parent. Not so that the parent can take him to the store, but rather so that the parent can suggest a proper time, and perhaps cover some, by encouraging him to go for a bike ride or such in front of the other parent. Or, if baking a cake…taking mom out for lunch or something to get her out of the way while the surprise is made.

***silently applauds this very sweet gesture***

Does anyone remember that awful Christmas Shoes song about the boy who was buying shoes for his dying mother? Probably at a Walmart? I don’t know why I thought of this song, or the gesture, but apparently we glorify the act of kindness and sweetness in song but not so much in real life.
A kid, alone, buying something for his mother, how sweet. Call the authorities!
(But thank you to the kind people at Walmart who called his home.)
And this boy wanted to buy flowers for his mom.

Yes, it was at night, without permission, and sneaky….but he sounds like a cool kid.
But we that song plays allll season long at Christmas, glorifying these kind gestures and when they happen in real life, we loose our sh*t over what could have happened to him.

Give his a good lecture about using his brains but don’t squash that spirit!

Donna, even good kids make poor choices at times.

Your post suggests you are about 100% sure your daughter would never do anything outside of the boundaries you set. I think that would be very, very unusual. And I would not agree with locking up every child who can’t be 100% trusted to stay within boundaries when nobody is looking. There is something to be said for learning from mistakes.

I was very free range, and I was also a pretty good kid, but I broke my fair share of rules, including some things I’m certain my parents thought I’d never do. (And both of my parents would say the same thing about their childhood.) I’m not going to say that made me a better person – a more aware person, yes – but it didn’t hurt me.

SKL – I don’t think my daughter will never break a rule. There absolutely is always consequences when she does. As a result, she really does almost never break my rules.

SKL – Whether it was 3:30 or 2:30 or even midnight is completely academic. It was after his bedtime and after his parents went to sleep so it was not reasonable for him to believe that it was okay to head to Wal-Mart.

I recently read to my kids one of my favorite books from childhood, called “Here’s a Penny” (first published in 1944). This is a gentle book and certainly not about a naughty child. In it there is one chapter where 6yo Penny (a boy) goes off with an older (8yo) boy and is left alone selling papers on the corner until it gets dark. (His dad did scold him for not telling anyone where he was going after school.) In another chapter, Penny hears his kitten meowing on the roof and goes outside in the middle of the night to rescue him. He climbs up onto the roof, takes off his pajamas to hold the kitten, climbs down a tree and goes back to bed, all without disturbing his parents. (His mother discovers it in the morning and does not scold him for it.) Neither of these incidents struck me as unrealistic for the time when I was a kid. In fact, I did these types of things and much “worse.”

A 3-mile walk in the middle of the night at 8yo is worse – and that is why the dad wrote this letter – but it is mainly worse because of the way we adults look at life. “We would be so worried.” Yes, but how much of that is because we’re irrational?

“I don’t think my daughter will never break a rule. There absolutely is always consequences when she does. As a result, she really does almost never break my rules”

But she still does break them. Almost never is not never. And you may have a daughter who is a pleaser, or very compliant by nature, which makes her more likely to follow rules.

Not all kids are pleasers. Some kids are risk takers. Some kids give no thought to the consequences, even when they have strict parents. Your parenting style may make have very little effect on a risk taker.

And you may be unlucky and have a daughter like me, who obeyed ever rule until about 15, then went batshit crazy and wild and crossed every line, just because I could. 🙂

Pentamon – Exactly.

If the boy just wanted to hang out at Wal-Mart in the middle of the night and made up the flower story to lessen any repercussions when he was confronted by the store employees, then he’s a clever lad who may have a bright future ahead of of him as a criminal mastermind, a spy or a politician.
I think he was telling the truth, but then who knows? Kids get up to things that their parents never thought to warn them about. My parents never warned me not to jump off the garage roof to see if I could fly, for example. (Turned out I couldn’t.)

SKL – Of course, you aren’t the only one who left the house while your parents were sleeping. Nobody is saying that this boy is evil incarnate and needs to be locked up for the rest of his life without parole. We are saying that his behavior should not be rewarded.

It doesn’t matter whether it was intended to be a short stroll or a lengthy voyage. This was not a kid who was a little later than he was expected, for which the defense of “I thought it would just take 20 minutes to walk to Wal-Mart, but it took an hour” makes sense. He knew that he wasn’t allowed to go ANYWHERE at 1am or 3am. He made a conscious decision to do something that he knew was wrong. That should not be rewarded, even if you believe that he had altruistic motives.

I never said he should be rewarded.

SKL – You may not of, but Lenore did.

Well actually, he did surprise his mom, but not exactly the way he planned to ….

The subject of rewards came up with the Dad:

“We don’t want to reward his behavior, but nether do we want to turn him into a timid boy who is afraid of everything.”

Consequences for broken rules don’t turn boys timid, they make them stronger. Especially when you explain your logic. Children grow up when they learn from their mistakes by parents enforcing rules and consequences for broken ones. They expect you to parent them and teach them. It’s not a reward, it’s communication.

I would seriously sit him down and question his thought process and explain why it was flawed. I’ve had many “I’m just trying to understand how your brain is working here” conversations with my kids (some more than others) and kids can do impulsive things. As for the late hour, my son has asked several times for permission to go fishing late at night, when they’re biting, in the summer. I don’t see danger immediately just because it’s late. It’s a process of thinking through a decision, not acting impulsively, that parents can help by talking to their kids and keeping the lines of communication open.

SKL –

Yes, if the child came back scared, tired and unhappy, the natural consequences may be enough. However, that doesn’t appear to be what happened here as I doubt this letter would have been written to Lenore if that was the case. My guess is that the kid came back pleased as he could be about his adventure except for the fact that he never got to surprise mom (if that was ever his intention). If the child came back never wanting to go on another midnight adventure until he was older, why would this letter have been written?

I don’t think the failure to surprise mom is a sufficient consequence here (if that was even the motivation for going). As a world-class roamer (not a risk-taker or boundary pusher; just extremely independent and not always particularly considerate of others), that certainly wouldn’t have motivated me to not roam at night if I had been so inclined (never really been a night owl). I might not want to do it to get a surprise for my mother again, but that isn’t actually the behavior we are trying to modify.

So what’s different about walking 3 miles at 3am, vs, say the middle of the afternoon? Let’s talk safety, shall we?

At 3am, there’s no one else about. Even bad guys know this is a lousy time to snag kids off the street (if there were any such bad guys) if only because your choice of kids is slim to none. There’s little or no traffic, either. So — fewer hazards than during daylight. The only difference is whether you believe there are monsters lurking in the dark that magically disappear at the touch of sunlight.

When I was in 7th grade I walked a mile to school in the dark every day, because I was on the morning shift and I had to be in class at 7am. And I walked down alleys, not streets, because they’re more interesting. Nonetheless, no bogeymen leaped forth from the trash containers in those dark alleys. Perhaps I frightened them off. 😉

And in my part of the world, sometimes it gets dark by 5pm, so being outside in the dark is not automatically a no-no.

The dad’s letter didn’t indicate anything about previously stated rules or curfew.

Possibly they don’t have a curfew on the weekends.

I think that if you didn’t have a specific rule being broken, normally the appropriate course of action is to establish the rule and provide a warning should it be broken in the future.

I might be a lax parent, I don’t know, but for my kids, normally a talking-to is sufficient for most things. There are exceptions depending on the kid.

While I would probably freak out if I found my kid missing from her bed in the middle of the night, I don’t know that it is fair to expect my 8yo to understand it from my perspective. But maybe I am wrong about that.

I’d have a talk with your son saying “I guess I never thought I had to explicitly say you can’t go out in the middle of the night so let’s discuss the rules and why they exist. I need to know where you are going and what time you’ll be home so I can find you if I need you. You don’t want me to be worried, so tell me. If you want to surprise someone and it involves leaving home, get permission from the other parent. Also, you can explore, but your limits are x, y, and z. If you want to go outside those, you must have both permission and a buddy. As you get older, you can go farther if we can trust you. ”

Your boy has a beautiful heart and guts to match! When I was his age, I clearly remember feeling invincible and had no doubt I could ride my bike from Cincinnati to South Carolina with a pocketful of money for food. If I had been a tiny bit more grandiose in my thinking, I might have jumped on my bike and just started. It isn’t wrong for a kid to feel that way. Luckily I asked first and in my case it wasn’t a plan we could carry out in real life but my Mom “let me have my wish in my fantasies” by talking it all out with me. (The quote was because I got that language from “How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk”.)

I can see both sides to this discussion, but I’m totally on the fence and here’s why:

Every summer, my mom’s side of the family goes camping. It’s a big family (my mom, her 4 brothers & sisters, their spouses, my 12 cousins and their spouses, and all of our kids) and like most big families, there are those that aren’t huge fans of the real camping experience. Last year we ended up at a camping resort at Lake Tahoe and like most of the rural areas in CA, bears are becoming a huge problem because they aren’t afraid of humans and have taken to wandering into the camps in search of food.

My then 9 year old son woke up in the middle of the night, needed to go to the bathroom, and went. He didn’t wake me up because he knew that I’m not a huge fan of the dark and will only go wandering through a pitch black campground if only absolutely necessary.

The next morning, we were all sitting around the fire talking about the bear that had wandered through our camp during the night and that’s when my son admitted that he’d left the tent and had gone off on his own.

In this circumstance (and with 20/20 hindsight vision), I believe that the likelihood of him encountering this bear was much greater than any harm coming to this other boy. I had never considered the fact that he would EVER leave the tent at night without waking me up (he obviously has some serious brass ones), so he didn’t break any rules, though I would have much preferred him waking me up so that I could go with him. That all being said, I was seriously impressed that he had done that on his own and didn’t punish him or have any sort of talk with him.

Granted, he didn’t know that there was ACTUALLY a bear in our camp, but he DID know that we had been warned by the rangers that this was happening. I guess we’ll find out this summer if his adventure last year will have any impact.

@Kimberly, I’d respond very differently to a child deciding to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night while camping without informing an adult, and promptly returning to the tend, than to the same child deciding to get up in the middle of the night and go for a two-hour hike alone. And then if that child told me they were on the hike to get me wildflowers, I’d be even more annoyed that they were lying to me. 😉

A child determining that they can pee without needing to wake an adult on a camping trip seems vastly different than a child deciding on a middle-of-the-night jaunt to a store.

Yup, a good talking to is the thing. But his intentions where right, his excecution left something to be desired for. I think that is the way to adress it. Remember, you want roses in the future too. He is old enough to reason through his own behavior and see where he went of the deep end. And real men ask for help too when they need it (i know it’s hard and you rather drive on not knowing where you re going)so maybe he should have come to you for help realizing his plan. Would you have let him go at sun rise?

I snuck out of my house more than a few times as a teen, and not a single time was the purpose to buy my parents a surprise present. Just sayin’. 😉

aw shucks.
I was an 8 year-old boy once. I can relate.
My father would have been furious. (My mother slightly less so – but she would have loved the flowers.)
Danger – would have been the last thing on Dad’s mind.
It was all about rules.

The kid made it to the store fine. He probably would have made it home fine, too. Thumbs up to walmart for doing the sensible thing and calling the dad – and not the cops, the fire dept., the army.
Outside of our Disneyfied, modified and codified lives a boy can have a sense of adventure. A mission to buy roses. Rewards and punishments…..we all get our shorts in a knot trying to figure out what to do with it.

When I was 9, I began to do wilderness hikes on my own. The reason I never got lost was because I carried a compass, and knew how to use it. Wood-lore.
Reactions now – it’s all about age. Bump it up a few years and this becomes a prank.

Do father and son need to have a serious discussion? No doubt. The impulsiveness of a kid requires some guidance and learning curves. According to the reality of the situation.

And yeah…..it is a “boy” thing. Read a little Mark Twain. The gender hasn’t been morphed out of recognition – yet.
That’s exactly how I raised my son. Did he go off the deep end a little, and at basically the same age?Yep- he did…the learning curves of his young life. And grew up fine.

There’s probably not a viewpoint that hasn’t been covered, but I side with those that say this was something that deserves consequences. Not being a member of this family and what ‘consequences’ look like, it’s hard to go beyond that with any specifics.

If an 8 yo thinks that going out after midnight, walking 3 miles in the dark of night, regardless of the reason (short of medical emergency and no access to telephones), indicates that this kid clearly needs more maturity/development before they should be trusted with some decision making. And I’m sure that most 8 yo kids fall in that category in regard to some things.

You can surprise Mom while still enlisting the help of other family members. And if the kid had some level of freedom, he could have gone during daylight hours anyway right?

Dad clearly states they don’t want to reward him (and they shouldn’t), but I don’t see how consequences make him timid. If being timid means he’s afraid to go out w/o telling anyone, then that’s the reaction you’d want right?

Getting something for Mom might be the “reason” he went out, but it’s not an excuse, because there is no legit excuse.

I’m giving the boy the benefit of the doubt about the roses, because it seems his parents think he was telling the truth about that. Wouldn’t they be the ones most likely to figure out a lie?

Anonymous Mom:

The point I was trying to make was that in a situation where I had pick between a serial killer or a bear — I would go with the serial killer every time. I’m not saying that a sit-down talk isn’t in the cards or even some sort of consequence isn’t necessary, but it IS quite possible that this child didn’t consider that his actions were breaking any sort of rule. Since you don’t know the situation or the people involved, you (or any of us) have no opinion in how this particular family should proceed. Any opinions we voice can only pertain to our own individual families.

On that note, I’d also like to point out that your viewpoint that any child claiming to have altruistic motives is lying is super sad. When my son was seven, he decided to give a gift card he’d received for Xmas to Walmart to the homeless woman outside. He didn’t ask me, he just did it. He gave up $50 of free toys (and video games) because he decided that food for the woman was more important. My 13 year old daughter routinely comes home from school with flowers she picked for me and my son will often come home with leaves from trees that he thinks I would like.

My kids will do nice things, sure. But if they do something wrong, and I ask why, and they tell me it’s because they had some altruistic motive, that’s going to raise my suspicions. There’s plenty of ways to surprise mom with flowers that do not involve middle-of-the-night forays to Wal-Mart.

I just think we have to at least be open to the possibility that the child’s stated motive was given to mitigate the consequences he’d face.

@Kimberly, I also don’t think that “serial killer” is the real danger in the 3 a.m. scenario. Yes, a person is more likely to be a victim of a crime if they are out walking at 3 a.m. than if they are out walking at 3 p.m. But, the real danger is cars. If I’m driving around at 3 p.m., not only am I going to be able to see any children out walking, I’m going to be alert to the possibility that they are walking around. At 3 a.m., not only will I not be able to see a child, I’m going to be operating on the assumption that there aren’t children out walking, so I’m not going to be scanning the environment for them, either.

But something doesn’t have to be dangerous to not be allowed, when we’re talking house rules. It’s one thing to say that the government shouldn’t pass laws against things that aren’t genuinely harmful/dangerous. I agree. But, parents aren’t governments. They are allowed to have house rules based upon their child’s best interests. I wouldn’t want to see the government punish parents who allow their children to stay up until 3:30 a.m., but of course it’s fine for a parent to decide that their child cannot stay up that late. When we discovered that our oldest was turning on his DS after we all went to bed and playing video games until the wee hours of the night–and then waking up cranky and tired the next day–there were consequences. He lost all screens for a week and he is not allowed to bring electronic devices into his room until further notice (which has not yet come).

We had never explicitly told him “You may not play video games from 12-3 a.m.” But, given what he did know–that screen time is over at 8:30 p.m., that he’s tucked in to bed around 10 (we homeschool, so he doesn’t have to get up until 8 or 9)–he certainly was capable of deducing that he was breaking the rules by playing video games late at night, and that’s why he was hiding it from us.

I saw the headline and immediately thought “That sounds like something MY kid would do!” (not that I would ever encourage such a thing, but parents DO forget to cover Every Single Circumstance by telling our kids “Please don’t eat the daisies”). Too funny, but yes, it absolutely should be impressed upon him that ONE parent needs to know ahead of time.

Wow – I just read many of the comments and was shocked at some of the responders, who seem to not understand child development (and differences among individual children). Childhood shouldn’t be that regimented – misadventures are how kids learn! Others have the same thought as me: this is why 8 year olds are still to be taught by their parents; to talk about what parts of this story were not appropriate. Sheesh. Great family story to be shared in years to come, BTW. Sort of like my family can now laugh about the 5 year old who pulled fire alarms and called 911 for a while (yes – repeatedly – he has ADHD and Asperger’s. Now, at 9, he is old enough and mature enough to laugh about it (and profess that he doesn’t do that anymore, which is very true). Live and learn, always.

To all those saying “it’s a boy thing”. It isn’t and you’re confusing the issue. And yes, I’ve read books by Mark Twain. In fact, I remember that Tom had a friend named Becky get lost in the mine with him. I’ve also read ” Caddie Woodlawn ” and “Little House on the Prairie”, and “The Great Brain” and “Anne of Green Gables”, and countless other books about kids having adventures, and you know what every single one of them has in common? There are consequences when kids break rules, even unspoken ones, because part of growing up is learning how to navigate boundaries and rules and respecting other people. This kid is far too old to think that this is acceptable behavior, not because he could get hurt, not because his parents could be arrested, but *because sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night is not something his parents would be ok with and he should know that by now.* In fact, if he were 4 or 5, I’d understand the lack of impulse control or “misunderstanding” of what’s acceptable behavior in that family. 8 is way too old to not have basic comprehension of those kinds of things.

SKL – What is not to love about the Wal-Mart trip other than mom never got her flowers (and even if we accept that as the childlike rational behind the trip that was not really WHY he went; he went for the adventure of going)? I guess that I am failing to see the big negative here that should discourage him from doing it again. I don’t know a single child who would actually do that trip that wouldn’t love it. I know many who would definitely not love it, including mine, but they would never do it at all.

When I was a kid, one of the things kids would do in the wee hours was sneak into the public swimming pool. That kind of makes a walk to WalMart seem tame. 😉

Regarding children staying up late – this happened in our home last year as well and here is how we handled it.

My 10 year old would also stay up late using her computer or watching videos on the iPad. She would go to “bed” about ten but still be up at 3:00 am. I asked her why she would stay up so late and she said she is just not tired. She slept until 2 or 3 pm some day but is usually awake by 11.

It was a bit nerve wracking at first but I watched to see if there were any negative consequences – crankiness etc. there were not. She would still get up at 9 am if there was something occurring at that time otherwise she just goes to sleep when she is tired and sleeps until she no longer is. It works for our family – also homeschooled – and she is learning to trust her body and what works for her. I spent the first 9 years of her life trying to get her to sleep “properly” and when I stopped trying finally, it worked itself out. Not everyone is a 9-5 person, maybe my daughter is one of them and I respect that.

The thirst for adventure isn’t male, it’s human. Every kid longs to grow up. Viewing four of your six kids as people yearning for responsibility, maturity and freedom, and the other two as… not?

What punishment would a daughter ger for sneaking out at night? Would it be okay if the kid became “timid” if he’d been a girl? Do girls not need to be brave? News to me, in a world that does what it does to women.

Girls don’t want to be caged either. Release your daughters too.

Anonymous mom

I’m wondering about your scenario where your husband leaves at three am and doesn’t tell you. How would you deal with him, if he did? Would you punish him? Would there be consequences like not speaking to him or denying affection? Or would you speak with him and try to discover why it’s happening?

Children deserve respect too. Knee jerk punishments just does not work, it only appears to because the other person is now frightened of you or of losing your love. I don’t want my children or my husband to feel that way. I want them to know that they have my support no matter what they do!

@E

I respectfully disagree. I think if you give people – and that includes children, respect, choice and freedom they will choose well. That doesn’t mean it’s always the best decision, but one based on their current knowledge and skills. If you feel the decision is wrong, then you can provide them with information you feel is important. Not punishment. I do not punish my children, we talk things out and it may take more time that way but it does work. They simply have nothing to rebel against because they are treated equally with other members of the household.

Tamara, my husband is not my child. It would be an abdication of my responsibility as a parent if I were to treat my children the way I treat my husband.

I don’t think the right response to the infantilizing of children is to treat them as if they are mature, responsible adults. An 8yo is not an adult. He lacks both the cognitive capabilities and the life experience of an adult, and it would be unfair to the child to treat him as if he were capable of adult-like decision-making.

But, I don’t support my children no matter what they do. I love them, always, but there are things they may do that I do not support, and will in fact act against. Sneaking out in the middle of the night would be one of those things. My supporting my child as a person (rather than supporting every bad decision they make) would require that I not simple ignore a situation like this. If my child really did not understand that it was not okay to sneak out in the middle of the night, then there’s some issues of decision-making and judgment that would need to be seriously considered and that would likely affect other areas of the child’s life (I’m not sure a child who couldn’t reasonably deduce at 8 that sneaking out to go to a place they aren’t allowed to walk to during the day was not okay is really responsible or mature enough to be without the supervision of somebody older and more mature for any period of time). If my child did understand that what they were doing was not okay and did it anyway, then we’d need to deal with their disrespect of me and their father and their disregard for the boundaries we set for them.

I think we do need to realize that, back in the day when children were given more freedom to roam, they were also expected to respect authority. Yes, we can go overboard with respect for authority, but I think a healthy respect for caring, responsible authority in their lives is good for kids. It’s not like in the 1940s a kid could have snuck out at 3:30 a.m. and walked to the general store without consequences, even if they were allowed to make that walk during the day. If you have free range without any boundaries and enforcement of those boundaries, you just have anarchy, and children deciding for themselves what they want to do and when. That is not going to lead to well-adjusted, mature, responsible adults who are capable of dealing with the demands of adult life.

Children aren’t all babies–and teens aren’t small children–but children are also not adults. Children are children. They need freedoms that are appropriate for their developmental stage, but they also need appropriate boundaries and guidance. And that will look different at 2 than it does at 8 than it does at 14, but as long as my children are legally my responsibility I can’t relate to them in the same way I’d relate to another adult.

“I think if you give people — and that includes children, respect, choice and freedom they will choose well. That doesn’t mean it’s always the best decision, but one based on their current knowledge and skills. If you feel the decision is wrong, then you can provide them with information you feel is important.”

Tamara,

The problem is that children–especially younger children–do not have the cognitive skills necessary to actually synthesize the information you provide them with into a good decisions, or the impulse control to actually act on that decision even if they do come to it.

But, I think I disagree that people choose well when given choice, respect, and freedom. I see examples all around me, all the time, proving the opposite. Many people, despite being afforded respect and freedom, make terrible choices. I sometimes make terrible choices despite respect and freedom. I know the relative nutritional value of a chicken salad versus a big slice of turtle cheesecake, but put them both in front of me and offer me a choice and 9 times out of 10 I’m going with the cheesecake. I know that cleaning my kitchen is a better choice than surfing the web, yet here I am.

Not only do children have less ability to self-regulate and to inhibit than adults do–and we certainly find those things hard enough!–but they also have more limited cognitive abilities and aren’t as able to process information to make good decisions. I think it’s unfair to put a child in the position of making decisions about things that they are incapable of making wise decisions about, like their own boundaries or their own curfew. That’s expecting more out of a child than they are capable of, and it seems no more developmentally appropriate to me than expecting children to be able to read in kindergarten.

My kids are 8 and so far I’ve never had very many rules. A couple years ago I remember telling my kids that they were not allowed to leave the property without telling me. (Before that, I told them there were coyotes outside at night – which was true). They do have a bedtime, but they know it’s because they need that much sleep before getting up for school/activities in the morning; and we don’t follow it strictly, it’s more of a target.

Would they leave the house at night? One of mine might if needed to carry out a bigger plan. She gets single-minded at times and doesn’t let go of a goal easily. She isn’t afraid to tell me most things, but sometimes she quietly does something she isn’t supposed to do. I let her know that I’m aware and not pleased, and if it becomes a repetitive thing, then I will place restrictions on her for a while or give her extra chores. Assuming I remember to.

I don’t fuss too much about these little infractions, because these are things all kids do, and they all grow out of it.

So the comments about “house rules” and all that – I don’t really relate. Maybe I will when my kids are older and coming/going on their own all the time.

Tamara – Children WANT structure and boundaries. They don’t want to be responsible for decisions that they are not developmentally ready to make. Putting them in such a position actually places an extreme amount of stress on them.

Children are not short adults. They don’t want to be treated as short adults. They don’t want to be asked to make adult decisions or understand adult rationale. They want us to put up boundaries so that they don’t have to make decisions that are above their developmental abilities. They want us to put the brakes on their actions before they spiral out of control. We need to respect them as human beings, but we don’t need to treat them the same as we would an adult.

And the fact that I never lack for criminal clients indicates that people don’t always choose well. I am not talking about questionable Meitiv-type cases, but true actual guilty criminal clients who for the most part are nice people who simply wouldn’t know a good decision if it smacked them in the head.

Actually, I think Little Brother and I were 6 and 8 or so when we snuck out (with bikes) to see if the toy store had a certain item. But that was in the afternoon when our parents were in the garden or so. It was a quite disappointing trip, because 1) the store didn’t have that toy we wanted, and 2) our parents had noticed our absence and were not amused.

@Tamara — it’s wonderful if talking/discussing works for your kids — and congrats.

I don’t believe that works for all kids — and probably very few teens. My kids as teens were expected to perform to a certain standard in school (which dealt with behavior & effort rather than grades, but they came hand in hand) and conduct themselves in a certain manner when behind the wheel of a car. When they got a speeding ticket, there were natural consequences (financial) and imposed consequences (me reducing the amount of access to the car). One would hope that the natural consequences would be enough to dissuade them from making that choice again, but I own the car and can decide if I want to grant anyone else the privilege of using it.

It’s wonderful if kids don’t ever make mistakes more than once, but that’s not my experience. So my choices are to acknowledge that my “rules/expectations” are really just suggestions, or to hold them accountable at some level that makes sense to our family.

@Warren, Mother’s Day was over a week ago, so maybe the way it was presented was misleading (getting the email just now that said this happened “last night”), but sure, people do nice things for their Moms on Mother’s Day.

I think, if you are are throwing this out there for public commentary, considering all things is ok. We don’t have many details about the family (which is perfectly fine).

Certainly kids DO come up with lots of different reasons/excuses/explanations when they get busted. We’ve all done it. So, a consideration would be if it’s possible this was a mitigating reason provided or was it the truth. I’m sure any parent that find themselves in this position wonders if it’s happened before or if it will happen again.

The parents are the best ones to determine that part, but when it’s open discussion, that’s certainly a consideration. Was the trip completely altruistic or was it just an adventure stopped short? If it’s the former…good enough.

@E, yes, many kids don’t learn immediately from their mistakes. Of course they don’t. Some kids are what I’ve seen referred to as “persistent testers”–I’ve got a couple of those. They will push at a boundary many times before they accept that it’s actually a real boundary rather than just an option. It takes my kids a long time to realize that “Don’t push your brother” doesn’t mean “Don’t push your brother, unless it’s Wednesday” or “Don’t push your brother, unless he has on a blue shirt” or “Don’t push your brother, unless you really, really want to” but actually means that you are never, ever to push your brother. I can explain the rationale forever, but they need to simply bump up against the boundary and have consequences for it enough times for it to sink in that it’s something they need to take seriously.

I also think it’s just wrong to assume that, because a child knows the right thing to do, they will always do it. Or even mostly do it. Sure, my daughter knows that pushing her little brother is wrong. But, if he’s being really, really, really annoying, she sometimes cannot inhibit her desire to push him. Kids can know the right thing to do but lack the impulse control to actually do it (or know the wrong thing to do and lack the impulse control to not do it). And that’s always where consequences can come in, because it means that children have some external pressures to help guide their behavior, beyond their own unreliable inner resources. Yes, my kids still misbehave, quite a bit. But I’m sure that if they never had consequences (both natural and logical) for their behavior they’d misbehave quite a bit more.

Anonymous mom

Yes I lied to my mother. In order to avoid her frequent disapproval of me and my choices. At times she literally would not speak to me for days because I did something against her rules or that she felt showed that I didn’t care about her feelings. That certainly sounds like what I would like for my kids.

Agree to disagree anonymous mom. I don’t think perfect parenting exists or will prevent any bad behaviour – your examples are of very young children acting completely like children should. I just believe that I can parent without coercion, force or punishment

Well, I agree with Tamara’s anti-authority sentiment in general, but I’d view an 8 year old leaving the house in the middle of the night as roughly parallel to a 2 year old walking into the street. Or, for that matter, an incompetent adult walking into the street. The 8 year old simply doesn’t have the development to visualize the potential dangers involved, or the foresight to see why this is a bad idea.

More importantly (since this particular episode already happened) we don’t know what else the 8 year old can’t forsee all the dangers of. (Yes, I did end that sentence with a preposition.) Yes, I agree with Donna, the 8 year old surely knew he wasn’t supposed to do this – but there is a huge difference between knowing something is forbidden, which may be malum prohibitum or malum en se, and understanding the dangers. Only the latter allows for appropriate generalization and full appreciation of the issue.

You deal with the person stepping into the road now, and worry about them understanding why when they’re older and have more appreciation for nuance. In fact, explaining all the reasons here could be hard and confusing. I’d hate the message sent by “CPS will come and take you,” but I’d also hate for it to happen, so I’d want to make sure he won’t do this again, or something sufficiently similar, and let him understand why when he gets older.

I’d worry more about that than not killing his adventurous spirit – those things are a lot harder to kill than people appreciate, I think.

I also, by the way, hate the use of the word ‘consequences’ when punishment is meant. I get it, it’s supposed to convey that this is the result of the chosen action, but in my mind, it only makes sense for natural consequences, not punishments.

Obviously doing something at 3 am is NOT appropriate but his thought was nice. I’m not even a big fan of walking around at 330 am and I’m 24. Reminding your son that if he wants to go out at 3 am he needs to tell you.

In regards to the world being more dangerous for kids today is simply not true. In fact it is currently the safest time ever for kids.

If you have any kind of rule about staying in your room after X or being inside before X than he should be given the usual punishment for that rule. You can still hold up that it was a lovely thing to want to do for his mom. If there is no rule like that than use your judgement if you have talk about why it was not a great choice will he not do it again? I have one child that would be enough …. the other one well she needs more convincing 😉

Among the traditional dangers to children parents must now add “police taking our children away”!!! With a government like that protecting us, who’s going to protect us from the government?

Wow. I am so impressed with this kid! How thoughtful! And, as you pointed out already, the planning was well done too! I have a 17-year old who would have asked for a ride, thus giving away any possible surprise. I am even more impressed with the Walmart staff who made a sensible phone call instead of over-reacting. If I were his mom, I’d just say thanks for the flowers and the surprise and I’d let it go. Maybe the next day, I’d quiz him on how he would have handled various scenarios (including being held at Walmart until his Dad could come get him) had they arisen.

Of course, if he has a curfew, I’d bring down the hammer with the vengeance of a protective god.

@Buffy–Life isn’t black and white. I’m sure Warren tells his wife his plans when they’re going to affect the household, like if he’s going to be gone overnight, or gone all day and won’t be home for dinner, et cetera. I think he meant that not every quick errand requires a prior notification and an itinerary.

Buffy,

You really need to get a grip.

On average I am gone during the night three or so times a week. I do my best not to wake anyone up, and exit quickly and quietly. If and when they wake up, if they need me, all they have to do is text or call me. You try and exit a home with three dogs quietly. I figure getting out of the house without waking them to be a hell of a lot more important than leaving a note.

Again, you are one of those people that have to have control. Sucks to be you.

Fine. Being polite and respectful of the people in your home is a control issue, not being polite and respectful. Got it.

@Buffy and @Warren — what 2 adults that share a home/bed do in regard to communication is worked out between them. If Warren is a night owl that likes to go out I presume he works that out with his significant other.

If you live in a home where that is not common (as in, it has never happened in the history of my marriage, lol) then it would be rather odd to suddenly wake up after a few decades of marriage to find them not there. Clearly, waking me (or leaving a note) would be the logical considerate thing to do.

And what adults do to communicate their whereabouts has zero to do with an 8 year old at 3am. The only way I can even begin to associate the 2 would be if one (or both) of the parents talked to the kids about running errands while everyone slept as a standard thing. If that’s the case, the parents probably wouldn’t be shocked that the kid chose to do the same.

@Puzzled, I think there’s a few reasons why people use “consequence” instead of “punishment.” I’m often hesitant to say “punishment” because many people still associate “punishment” with physical discipline, and that’s not what I’m ever talking about. I think sometimes people are nervous about saying “punishment” because others will hear that as “spanking” or “beating,” instead of “time out” or “loss of privileges.”

But, like E, I’d also distinguish between a consequence as a direct or logical result of the action, and a punishment as something done to deter the behavior again. When my kid was playing video games in his room in the middle of the night, the consequence was having to keep his devices downstairs. He has proven that he lacked the self-control to have video games available to him without playing them at night, and so at this point he is not able to keep them in his room. The punishment was not being allowed to play any video games for a week. He had broken a rule, and he had tried to hide it, and he’d directly lied to us (when we’d asked him why he was so tired, he kept making up different reasons), and so for that he lost the privilege of video games for a period of time.

Buffy,

You must be one of those people that have never worked shift work, done night service calls, worked weekends, been on call or many other reasons why being gone in the middle of the night is no big deal.
There is a very large portion of the population that does have these sort of schedules and lives. So do not put your standards on the rest of us.

Just as an example of how things go for people like us. The other day I was gone at 4am on a call. My bride woke up at her regular time and texted me. I told her where I was, that I would be there for another hour or so, and then would head straight to the shop. She brought me a fresh coffee on her way into work.

Until you have walked in our shoes, do not call how we do things rude. Because that in itself is just rude.

@Warren, you described people who do not do things the way you do as control freaks before you were accused of being “rude.”

In 20 years of being together, not once has either my husband or I left in the middle of the night on a whim. In fact, neither of us has ever left alone for any reason. So, it would be out of the ordinary and strange if it happened, and it would absolutely warrant either a waking or a note. That’s not making my husband answer to me–he’d expect the same from me–or requiring control. It’s the kind of basic courtesy that couples exercise to make life better for each other.

As for the “adults don’t leave without telling their partner” thing, I say it depends on what’s normal for those particular people, in that particular relationship. So, suppose Warren wakes up in the middle of the night to get a snack, and while he’s getting his snack, he realizes that there’s no cereal for the family’s breakfast in the morning. Not wanting to wake anyone up, he slips out, drives to the store, buys cereal, returns home, and goes back to bed, without anyone noticing. Suppose the same scenario plays out, except Warren’s wife wakes up and finds his half of the bed empty. If this wasn’t something Warren normally did, she might worry about him, but since he says he does it often (and probably told his wife this early in their relationship), she’d have no reason to worry, unless he didn’t come back in the morning. If she was worried, she could call or text him. That’s what works for that family, but it might not work for Anonymous Mom and her husband. That’s fine, but I don’t think we should devolve into bickering and name-calling over it.

I do not believe any punishment is in order if the child was never told not to walk to Walmart. Does he walk to Walmart during the daytime? What I would do is speak to the child, calmly and clearly, and lay out what he may or may not do. I personally feel that the biggest risk with him walking to Walmart in the middle of the night is police or cps – NOT criminal predators. I used to walk around NYC at all hours of the day or night. I found it to be much safer than people think.

Flowers or no flowers is beside the point. I think the kid knew it was wrong to go out after bedtime. Most parents have a set rule, even if it’s different on the weekend, about the time to be home for the night. Sometimes it’s an actual time – be home by six – and sometimes it’s a noticeable thing – be home when the street lights come on – but there is usually a time to be in. After bedtime is definitely after the curfew, even if it isn’t called a curfew, and an eight year old will know that.

So, I do think there should be consequences. Whether punishment is one of those would be up to the parents, but at the least, I think there should be a talk about appropriate behavior and appropriate times to go out. Quite a few people have mentioned rights and responsibilities. With increasing rights, people get increased responsibilities as well. If the parents are raising their child free-range, even if they don’t call it that, this won’t be a foreign concept to the kid. People have mentioned checking in, letting parents know where the child will be and when he expects to be home. This is a responsibility that comes from having free range. Abdicating the responsibility is cause for something more than just the kid’s internal guilt or fear of the dark or realizing that feet get tired walking three miles. It needs to be explicitly addressed, according to the usual practices of the family. It could even be couched as a Spiderman thing. Isn’t that the franchise’s mantra? – with great power comes great responsibility.

*If* I were asked for my advice, I’d suggest curtailing his outings for a week. Can’t go beyond the block, can’t go more than five houses away, whatever would restrict the child from his usual habits, so that he realizes that he can’t just go off willy-nilly. The fear of a child not being noticed by a car after midnight is a real, concrete danger. It’s dark, and drivers won’t be expecting a child-sized human to be out walking at that time. Also, some drivers are more likely to be drunk or at least slightly under the influence at bar-closing time and less able to react quickly. Of course, it depend on the area, the lighting, the clothes the kid wore, and so on. That is beyond what we have from Dad.

In the end, we have a child out at a time which concerned the parents. This at least deserves a stern talking-to, imo.

What about daylight hours? Is a person a control freak only during the night, but if they like at least a “goodbye” from their spouse or the kids to check in that they’re leaving during the day, that’s OK?

Got to have rules. With an eight year old there’s not much about ‘sneaking’ that’s good. Most of time when a child is hiding something, it’s because he KNOWS he isn’t supposed to do it and there will be consequences if he is found out.
According to the bible and US law, withholding information is the same as lying.
It’s a bad precedent to set.

@Tamara, children are not adults. Children cannot and should not be treated like adults. So, yes, it’s true that if my husband left our home at 3 a.m. without telling me and had me worried sick, I could not and would not try to, say, take away his screen time for a week, the way I might if my 11 year old did the same thing.

As unfair as that might seem to you, treating children like adults would not logically work in many circumstances. My kids, in their toddler and preschool years, did things that would have gotten them arrested and locked up for assault if they did them as adults, like biting and kicking others. But, because they are children, when my 3 year old bites his older sister because she took a toy from him, and then she pushes him over, I do not call the police and have them both arrested for assault, the way I might do if two adults in front of my house were rolling around on the ground biting and kicking.

Kids do not have the cognitive capacities of adults, and do not have the impulse control of adults, either. I don’t disagree that as kids get older, that changes. I do think that, by the time a child is a teenager, they should absolutely be moving more and more toward responsibility for their own actions and being talked to like an adult. But, you can’t talk things out with an 8yo the way you would with an adult, because an 8yo is not the same cognitively as an adult (or even as they will be at 10 or 11 or 12).

There might be problems with the way we treat children, but the fact that we do not treat them the same way we treat adults is not one of them. Treating children as adults would be simply unworkable. Most kids would be serving 25 to life before they were in kindergarten if we didn’t have a different set of rules governing how we respond to children and how we respond to adults.

Are you people insane? Lauding a little child for leaving the house in the middle of the night without telling anyone where he’s going, and walking three miles away? I wouldn’t accept it even if happened during the day. It’s one thing to give them independence, another to just let them roam wherever the F they want whenever they want. By condoning this behavior you give your “movement” a bad name. RIDICULOUS.

@Tamara, kids can be messy, curious, and loud and still be expected to abide by the rules or guidelines that make a home manageable. If I have dinner on the table at a certain time, and my kids are expected to eat dinner with me at a communicated time, then if they ignore that request, it’s not ok. Those people are not treating ME with respect, so yes, it’s time to discuss. And if the behavior continues with my kids, I would expect to modify THEIR level of freedom so that I don’t get stood up again.

If I expect my teen to be home by 11pm because I want to go to bed knowing my car is in the driveway and we all have to get up to work the next day, and they choose not to do that, they are disrespecting the house rules. They can expect to have an earlier curfew or not get the privilege of driving the car the next time.

I mean, unless your home is devoid of expectations or commitments at given times (and maybe it is) or your house is filled with perfect people, there will come a time that your kids test you. As a parent you have to evaluate if you are going to accept that level if disregard for your expectations, or you are going to have to address them. I am certain my kids would love to do whatever they want if they only had to endure a brief discussion if they break a rule. That’s a pretty easy trade off.

What I am hearing continuously is an awful lot of what is important to the parent, but no one considering what is actually important to their children. My way or the highway sounds fun. Oh right, I guess childhood is not supposed to be fun, unless there’s a lot of rules to go with it.

@Tamara, I shouldn’t even bother replying any further, but I feel I’m being punk’d. Unless one lives completely alone, you simply cannot go thru life doing ONLY what you feel like doing and when you feel like doing it. You absolutely have to compromise in order the have any level of peace and normalcy. If it’s important for me to have dinner with my family each night to share our lives and exchange conversation and viewpoints, then it’s perfectly ok for me to expect my family members to show up. There are enough hours in the day for kids to do X, without missing dinner with their family.

Life can be fun for everyone, but I’m not going to defer to my children on every point in the spirit of giving my child a “fun” childhood.

And since I presume there is a high probability that my kids will grow up and choose to share their lives with someone else, the idea of compromise and respect for others’ wishes is an important skill to have.

And all of the above ignores the fact that children do not have the maturity at every point of their lives to make appropriate/safe/healthy decisions. Can they decide not to go to school? Can they decide they want to sleep in my bed instead of their own? Can they decide that their bedtime is midnight? Can they decide to eat cookies at 5pm when I’m serving a healthy dinner at 6pm?

@Tamara, I was wondering if that was going to be your answer. If your kids can do all of those things just because they want to, then your style of parenting is an outlier on anyone’s scale.

3am is not late at night – it’s early in the morning.
You may tell your kids “no video games after 9pm” – but do you tell them “no video games until 6am”?
My 8 year old has a bedtime, but not a waketime. The only rule in this house is that the kids must keep their video games, videos etc. QUIET if they wake up before the others. And that they can’t ask me for permission for things while I am asleep, but that had to be added later (because I sleep talk and my 8 year old figured out that early morning questions could lead to me giving permission for things I normally wouldn’t).

Unless the parents had given a specific time that it’s okay to go outside again, I wouldn’t assume that the kid knew this was “inappropriate” or “not okay” (and I don’t really see why it was, other than not letting a parent know, as the kid is obviously fully capable of walking to the store. Why are so many people afraid of the dark?). And I wouldn’t punish him, personally. I’d say “That was very sweet that you surprised Mom. But in the future, you have to tell at least one parent where you’ll be going and when, even if it’s for a surprise.”