Outrage of the Week: 6-year-old Suspended for Singing “I’m Sexy & I Know It”

The article I had read about it said he had three previous warnings involving shaking his butt and crotch in girls’ faces. In light of that, it doesn’t seem too outrageous a punishment. Crotch in face= unwanted sexual attention no matter how old. Three strikes and punished on the fourth. I find that pretty tolerant and reasonable

Crude, rude, and undisicplined child that deserves punishment? Yes.

“SEXUAL attention” requireing a 3 day suspension? NOT. At that age, there’s nothing “sexual” about it. He just enjoyed grossing out the girls which is totally normal for 6yo boys.

Funny story–when I was living in the International House community in Wollongong, Australia, and mentoring in the postgrad house, the director of iHouse had two little boys, aged five and seven, who were great kids, but very spirited, and they hero-worshipped every last one of us, because we were “big, important university students.” Now, one of my fellow mentors (who was the sweetest girl in the world, and otherwise very sensible), who would repeatedly sing “Sexy and I Know It” whenever she took a mind to, except she only knew the chorus. So, sooner or later, the little boys started imitating my friend, when she wasn’t even around, and in the most inopportune places, like in the middle of the dining hall. However, nobody punished them, because they didn’t even know what “sexy” meant. All I could think was that my friend had created a monster.

The information about the other material made me shake my head and be a little more understanding about the suspension, but 3 days? If the behavior wasn’t stopping, I’d go with a 1 day suspension, but 3 days is a little crazy. I taught first grade. 1 day oughta do it. If the behavior continues, there are bigger problems. I agree, boys like to be gross, but during my teaching time, the kids who continuously had such problems were overly exposed to sexual stuff at home.

Not knowing the specifics I’m not sure how I feel. If this is his fourth time being disciplined for this kind of behavior as Jenjen said suspension seems warranted- but not the label of sexual harassment. I agree with wendyww that at that age it’s about being gross to the girls and funny to the boys. That said, it is only deserving of discipline at all if it did occur during classroom or other instructional time. If it was out on the playground, before or after school or other “free”ish time not so much. But that is the problem with zero tolerance policies. They don’t distinguish between boys being icky and sexual harassment or between instructional time and recess. It’s about punishment not teaching the child discipline and appropriate behavior.

When a six year old shaking his butt and singing “Sexy and I Know It” is labelled as sexual harassment it takes legitimacy away from real sexual harassment.
Of course the child should be punished for his behaviour if he had been warned to stop, but not for sexual harassment.
I don’t know a six year old who doesn’t know this song!

Ugh. I’m turning into an old fogie, I think. I judge today’s pop as so gratuitously raunchy, I’m a little embarrassed when my 11-year-old turns the station to the top 40 hits. I guess this is how some moms felt in the 1950s when Elvis was “All Shook Up” and in the 1960s when the Rolling Stones couldn’t get no “Satisfaction” and in the 1970s when Bad Company droned on about “Feel Like Makin’ Love” and in the 1980s when Cyndi Lauper squeaked out “Touch Myself.” Some people must have gone nuts when “I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It” came out… shuddering to think of all the triggers these days, how many buttons are being pushed, and not just on the radio…

It was probably scandalous in 1961 when 6-year-olds started gyrating around imitating the “Twist,” I’m sure many adults were shutting that down and drumming little ones out of school until they could find their manners… now we’d just laugh about that.

So the ante is definitely up, and kids will always reflect the popular culture. If you’re already feeling shocked about what’s on the radio, when you see and hear the kids feeding it back, well, you’ll be totally outraged, and it sounds like this teacher just lost her head a little bit, maybe feeling overwhelmed and wanting some order and peace. Who doesn’t want that?

It made my skin crawl off my body when my little 4-year-old step-daughter started mincing around talking about being “sexy.” Seriously. I wanted to barf. She and Mom were using it as a way to compliment each other! Gah!! I used to get very triggered by the middle finger, too… still do sometimes. And this little one called me a “MFer” (long version) one day because I wouldn’t play a certain game.

Here’s the deal: punishing children for imitating us is like punishing them for getting taller. They reflect it all, even the parts we don’t like very much. When they say “sexy” or “asshole” it’s no different than when they say “umbrella” or “applecart.” We just assign a whole lot more importance to certain words, and they kind of get that a little bit, they like to feel their power, but they just. Don’t. Have. A clue. They can’t know what it does to adults to see the booty shakin’ and hear the trashy talk. A lot of folks grab the switch, the bar of soap, or throw them out of the place.

There are more effective ways to inspire the reflection of our values in our children that don’t breed fear, resentment, and confusion, but I guess that’s for another day.

How is suspension even a reasonable punishment at 6? There are generally not “grades” in kindergarten to be affected. There is no real understanding of the embarrassment. There is only so much a parent can do to punish a child this young for getting suspended. I can make my preteen and teen’s life miserable for the 3 days by making her my slave but that doesn’t work at 6. An appropriate 6 year old punishment would be equally, if not more meaningful, to this child.

For this to be SEXUAL harassment the girl would have to understand the sexual nature of the actions. Highly unlikely unless there is a history of sexual abuse. I know many kids who shake their pelvises and butts singing much worse than a song from an M&M commercial and come from homes as dysfunctional as they come and they don’t get it at all. They are just copying the adults in their lives. I know my 6 year old would view a shaky pelvis and butt the same way she view a shaking foot. She has no concept of the different meaning.

And who says the girl was even annoyed? My kid would think this annoying from a kid she dislikes and funny from a friend. Again, the sexual aspect is lost on her so it is just a matter whether she wants the person that close to her. This could simply be the school officials punishing the child for something that bothers them and isn’t even “harassing” to the “victim” at all.

Way to go Colorado!! You’ve just shown every 6 year old boy how to get 3 days off school.

Seriously,what has happened to our society. It appears to be more and more puritanical with every passing week. Are teachers so inept that they can no longer take a child aside and give a quiet reprimand? This is what happens with ‘iberal’ teaching methods were discipline is a dirty word. I remember there were certain teachers at school who were not to be crossed at any price. Just a look would have you thinking twice about bad behaviour and you didn’t dare talk back.

Nowadays school seems to be less about education but is mere organised crowd control.

Is this for real? Could sensible people be this reactive? I hope that the child was reinstated and that they changed their policy.

Given his other actions this is NOT enough.This stopped being about him and is about letting the other kids grow up without having a classmate shove his crotch in their face. If you think this is normal then you aren’t the worst mother – you are a scum of a human being.

He should be removed from the school, and his parents investigated for sexual abuse. He should not be allowed to return to school until they are sure this behavior will stop.

What you don’t get is a child this age can sexually abuse other students. I spent 6 years (K – 5) being threatened with violent images of rape, in addition to being beaten up on a regular bases by a classmate. It wasn’t until my uncles recognized the signs of a child being sexually abused, told my parents what was going on that someone got what I was going through. Then my parents got a lawyer involved to find out what my rights were. The 2nd week of 5th grade the bully kicked me in the throat. My doctor was involved at that point (He had been on the verge of reporting my parents for abuse – and confirmed I was abused but was shocked to find out it was by a 10 yo). My parents ended up having papers drawn up to press criminal and civil charges not just against my bully, but the bully’s parents, and the administration of my school district for child neglect, child endangerment, failure to report sexual abuse of a minor, and failure to protect a minor child. The fact my Dad had numerous witnesses to a school board member telling him – Kimberly must like getting beaten up or she wouldn’t make “bully” mad. Would have helped our case. After the meeting with our lawyer the bullying stopped on a dime.

The bully’s family removed him from the school. He wasn’t given any help.

If someone has taken notice of our complaints about bully forcing our heads into his crotch in Kinder, instead of telling us telling us that is just what boys do maybe
1. My classmates and I would not have had to endure 6 years of him detailing how he was going to break into our homes and violate us, our sisters, and our mothers.

2. The women he grew up and raped and beat half to death would have not had that horror visited down on them. If there was true justice our district administration and his parents would be in TDC with him. They created this monster.

@Jenjen OK, I’ve read a half dozen articles on this story. None of them mention shaking a crotch in a girls face. It would appear he “shook his booty” referring to wiggling his little 6 year old butt, and lifted his shirt the previous two times. Both of these actions are EXACTLY what the M&M character does on the spoof commercial and are not at all sexual. Kid was copying a very popular very catchy commercial. If we are going to suspend kids from aping pop culture then our schools will be very empty indeed. Now, IF he was only doing this to the one little girl and IF she had told him to leave her alone, THEN I could see some need for corrective action. Suspension? For dancing and singing? Not so much.

I remember a boy doing similar stuff to me and a few other girls in 2nd grade- the teacher did nothing so we took turns kicking him in the crotch the next time he shoved his junk in our faces. He never did anything like that again and I guess we should be grateful we weren’t suspended/expelled for defending ourselves.

BTW, I have never heard that song. I begin to suspect I may be the only person in the English-speaking world who can say that. I wonder what else I’m missing by not watching TV and listening to “oldies” on the radio.

@ Ms. Herbert – What you went through was awful and a far cry from what this boy is described as doing. I’ve read several articles about this and the boy is just alleged to have sung the words “I’m sexy and I know it” to a girl while standing next to her on a lunch line. There was also a previous incident, about a month prior, where he sang it while “shaking his booty” at the same girl. This same song, or a parody thereof, and movements have been featured in an M&M commercial and Sesame Street and the song is very mainstream popular (my 6 year old has probably heard it). It appears that he may have some difficulty accepting that the classroom is not the place to sing as he has also gotten in trouble other times for singing (nothing sexual then).

Yes, we only get one version of events. I don’t believe that every parent everywhere ALWAYS downplays their children’s behavior. I’m certainly not inclined to deem this boy a future rapist who should be excluded from all education, as you have, based on the possibility that there are a whole lot of facts that are hidden and NOBODY is coming forward with them. The school may not give statements but there is nothing stopping the girl, her parents, the other students and their parents from doing so. The most anyone has said, even in comments after the articles from people who allegedly go to this school, is that the boy likes to sing and sometimes disrupts the class doing so.

The mother hasn’t said a word about the suspension and seems to just want the sexual harassment taken off his record. I don’t think that her position is unreasonable given the facts as we know them.

Even if we can think of a lot worse behavior, if it’s that disruptive and continous, some punishment is in order.

If nothing else, the kid needs to learn the behavior is not okay.

I don’t know how things work in the US but if it was overtly sexual behaviour, that is on the list of criteria which are part of the mandatory reporting legislation here in Australia, so the school would have a duty to refer it to child protection. But singing a line from a very famous song is not sexual behaviour. Nor is imitating dance moves.

When my son was three I played a Best of the Grateful Dead album in his hearing and he started singing “Riding that train, high on cocaine.” Clearly I should have been thrown in jail because I was encouraging drug use.

Oh wait, no, I was just playing good music at my son instead of boring Raffi crap that we both hated, and trusted that the one objectionable word would go right over his head. Which it did.

I remember in fourth or fifth grade that a bunch of us had a discussion over what ‘virgin’ meant. We somehow got it into our heads that it was some sort of insult, because a bunch of us started claiming, “Well I’M not a virgin.” I suppose our parents should have all been hauled off for molesting us instead of what happened, which is that an adult with a clue said, “You clearly don’t know what that word means. You’re going to get in a lot of trouble with people who do know what it means unless you stop using it. Got it?” We got it, and moved on to some other childish thing.

When you hear hoofbeats, don’t think zebras first.

It was on the M&Ms Super Bowl commercial, how can you avoid that song?

Hey, does anyone else here think it was maybe not such a brilliant idea to use a song about sex, to advertise candy to children? I don’t think it’s really necessary; I mean, M&M’s have been around forever and a day, and besides which, how hard is it to pitch chocolate in a brightly-coloured sugary shell, to a demographic that’s drawn to sugar, chocolate, and bright colours? When I was a kid, M&M’s commercials featured stuff like cartoon chocolates ziplining into a vat of candy-shell liquid, or even just PEOPLE saying, basically, buy this candy, because it tastes good. No sexual innuendo whatsoever, and yet, people still bought the candy…….because it tasted the same then that it does now.

@Mollie, I feel compelled to defend Cyndi Lauper against the charge of having recorded “I Touch Myself.” That hit from hell was actually by an Australian band called the Divinyls, whose lead singer did sound a bit like Cyndi.

Other than that, thank you for this: “Here’s the deal: punishing children for imitating us is like punishing them for getting taller. They reflect it all, even the parts we don’t like very much.” I don’t think anyone could have put it better.

In my book, suspension never makes sense unless someone has committed a violent act of some kind.

Donna, all I said was that I reserve my opinion becasue there aren’t enough facts and all the “facts” are from one side. I believe sexual harassment by a 6yo is “possible” if he comes from a certain background. I was not there, but his teacher was.

As for the other parents not speaking out – maybe they feel, as I do, that publicly discussing a young child’s behavior issues is not appropriate. Or maybe the media doesn’t want to hear or broadcast their side of the story. It’s even possible that they realize they WERE NOT THERE and therefore don’t really know what happened or didn’t happen.

Of course it’s possible that the school overreacted. I’m just saying it’s not a foregone conclusion. I disagree with the sentiment that a first-grader is incapable of sexual harassment. Or, put another way, that a first-grader is incapable of *being* sexually harassed by a classmate. It has happened. Kids not much older have raped others. It’s naive to insist that the child can’t possibly have had the requisite state of mind.

Amber Bante, I find it really difficult to compare a story of a 3 year old propositioning people for sex using foul language (something that is clearly the result of seriously bad parenting) with a 6 year old singing a song that is so much a part of current pop culture that it is used in candy commercials. Yes, the kid sang and danced to a song that’s not very child friendly – but that’s a huge cry from sexual harrasment. Sexual harrasment is about power and there was no power involved in this situation – just a kid who wasn’t doing what he was told and repeating a song that his parents proboably forgot to tell him was inappropriate for school.

Calling this sexual harrasment takes away from people (like the kid in your story) who are actual victims of sexual harrasment and abuse.

Virginia, thanks for the correction. I wondered if that was really Cyndi but I didn’t bother checking.

Sherri, I’d go a step further and say the song is about attention! And so is the M&Ms commercial! And that’s what this little boy was after! And he sure got it! LOL

@Amanda – Unless one of the parents are a SAHP and home already.

And what if the parent believes that the punishment is ridiculous? They are probably not going to punish their child at home at all and may even take the kid out for fun activities to blunt the unfair punishment.* Now your “punishment” is completely counterproductive.

*I’d punish my kid somewhat in this case because he needs to learn to stop singing in class regardless, but in the case of a zero tolerance suspension for bringing a boy scout knife to school to cut fruit, we’re having a talk about taking unwanted items to school and then having a few days of fun. Heck, I have to take vacation time off work for this nonsense so I’m going to enjoy it.

@Nat – thank you for the laugh!

As a former middle school teacher, this makes me guffaw. Wait about a decade and then see if you can try to get any little boy to quit shaking his junk and saying he’s sexy. If you suspend them all, maybe you can have more time to grade papers over a glass of wine.

I am appalled on how many people admit to and have no problem with their kids listening to songs like this. I personally have never heard this song and my children have never heard it either. But we don’t waste money on cable and we don’t listen to radio, since there are quite a few songs like this I don’t want my little ones copying. So we listen to CDs and books on CD in the car. On the rare occasion that we might listen to a bit of radio we turn the channel or turn it off if anything like this comes on. It’s not that hard and my children have a much richer vocabulary from listening to classics like Heidi and Charlotte’s Web then from listening to junk like this. Of course my kids are homeschooled and therefore not exposed to a lot of the junk a lot of kids nowadays are exposed to through school. I’m so grateful they are able to have an innocent, free range childhood being children and not exposed to adult stuff so young. That being said, I don’t view this as sexual harassment. What we have here is apparently a popular problem of a child being exposed to sexual stuff at too young of an age. Even his mother considers him an “adolescent”. Here is a direct quote from her:

His mother, Stephanie, told HLN’s Vinnie Politan on Monday night that the first incident took place in art class and the second in a lunch line, describing both as her 6-year-old son’s awkward attempts to impress a girl.
“It’s an adolescent boy that possibly likes a girl and doesn’t understand, ‘Hey, I like you and I put it in those terms,’ ” Stephanie Meadows said. “That’s the adolescent mind.”

Excuse me but this is a 6 year old CHILD. NOT an adolescent. sigh……

Elizabeth, we homeschool as well, and I do have to admit to not having heard this, in part due to not having a working car radio.

But I do understand how kids watching shows can see a commercial and then want to imitate it. I know my parents got really tired of “Where’s the beef!?!” and “I’ve fallen…and I can’t get up!” My parents only let us watch about an hour of TV a night, and I think they regretted that!

Also, we don’t know if this child has an older sibling or babysitter who listens to this music. Or even may have heard it on the bus on the way to school.

I still maintain that in 20 or 30 years there will be WAY more pressing issues than this in daily life in North America…

Chloe, from way back up in the beginning, I have to question the qualifications of a teacher to teach who can’t explain the word “sexy” in an age appropriate manner. Couldn’t she have said something like “It is when adults think that the other person is pretty/attractive and they want to kiss them.” or even leave off the kissing part?

What she did was to make it more appealing to him, Had she given him an answer, she wouldn’t have had any more issues the rest of the day.

She made it like the little boys who bring worms and bugs to their teachers so that they scream. I always admired the bugs and worms, then told them to put them back. Only the kids not interested in shock value would bring me worms.

And, I have to think that with the little boy in this case that there was similar motivation – having been told it was forbidden, but probably not why, he thought it was fun to shock.

I the PBS show “Arthur” did a great show on this, about swearing. Very age appropriate.

Six year olds hear this song playing in the mall, at the hairdresser, at the grocery store, at scool, at sporting events, on the radio, on TV…It’s really quite a catchy, fun song. I don’t know why people are making such a big deal about it. It’s not sexually explicit. To me part of being free range is not to censor what my kids watch, read or listen to, but to give them guidance to understand those things.

When my 7 and 5 year olds were singing this song, we had a discussion about what the word sexy means. In their language, sexy means, “you look good in a way that girls (or boys) want to hug and kiss you”. Once they determined that meaning, they decided NOT to sing the song because they both agreed that they certainly did not want to be hugged or kissed. Perhaps the teacher could have explained what the word meant, but some parents would be quite upset with the teacher taking the liberty to educate their children about sex. Both my kids know why this song is inappropriate for them to sing and I would hope that if a child in their classes at school were singing this song, that the teacher would stop it.

On a similar note, two years ago, my 7 year old niece came home from school crying because a boy in her class kept calling her sexy. She repeatedly asked him to stop but he kept doing it, even after the teacher told him to stop. In a meeting with the parents, the mother told my sister that her daughter, “needs to learn to accept a compliment from a man”! Totally inappropriate behaviour from a 7 year old! Because the boy continued harassing my niece, he was suspended. I don’t care how old you are, if you are asked to stop harassing someone, and don’t, there should be a consequence. If the boy was 13, the suspension would have happened a lot sooner.

I think there is more to this story. North American schools follow a model of progressive discipline where after each infraction a child makes, the consequence is greater. Typically it starts with a warning, phone calls or notes home, lost recesses, detentions, meetings with school personnel, in-school suspensions, one day suspensions, and so on. A first time infraction (which mom admits this already occurring beforehand) would not receive a three day suspension. He likely has already had many encounters of aggressive behaviour.

“I am appalled on how many people admit to and have no problem with their kids listening to songs like this. I personally have never heard this song”

You’ve never heard the song, but yet are appalled that some parents let children listen to it? On what exactly do you base your appall?

I admit that I don’t know the song (I do live on a small, backwards island with one radio station that played Samoan songs during the Super Bowl breaks instead of commercials) but I just googled the lyrics. I don’t find anything outrageous in them. It sounds kinda cute to me. I don’t know if my daughter has heard it or not but I’d have no problem with her listening to it. What are young kids supposed to listen to? Raffi? Yuck that offends my ears.

Donna- LMFAO as cute? Do you not know what LMFAO stands for? The name of their band is offensive, let alone the title of their song and their lyrics. And Raffi offending your ears? I would take Raffi over LMFAO any day. At least Raffi uses his talent and position in the spotlight to help improve the quality of life for children around the globe. From Earth Charter to Child Honouring and Beluga Grads, you can’t deny that Raffi is someone that our children should strive to emulate, not the latest act selling whatever it can to get its 15 minutes of fame.

“What are young kids supposed to listen to? Raffi? Yuck that offends my ears.”

My 6 year olds listen to a lot of classical music, hymns/ children’s gospel songs, Disney CDs, some kid appropriate broadway CDs (like Peter Pan), various kids songs CDs (like mother goose rhymes and such), and lullabye CDs (at bedtime or other quiet times). My kids who are a bit older enjoy a lot of the oldies from the 50’s/60’s, as well. Beach Boys are a favorite around here to dance with. 🙂

On a somewhat related note, in terms of use of sex in commercials that makes me a bit squirmy, that song by Andrea True, the porn star, in 1976? “More More More (How Do You Like It)”? Even back then, we understood that this was a kind of a “dirty” song. (I was 7.)

Well, it’s a bit weird for me that Save On Foods here in Canada at least uses that very song as their theme song for the grocery store! “More more more!” shouts the breathy female vocalist. Yipes!

I’d love to keep my kids in a box sometimes. Any fantasies I had about them not seeing “violent” films or listening to “raunchy” pop music before they came of age vanished when I divorced their dad. At his house, it was a steady stream of Eminem and R rated films on cable. Oh well! That ship has sailed!

The kids are alright. I guess all we can do is talk to them, whether we’re teachers, parents, or benevolent onlookers. Please don’t punish them or get them thinking there’s something “bad” about them just because they’re trying on the stuff they’ve seen on TV. You can explain it triggers a lot of things in adults, when they hear kids saying certain words or acting certain things out with their hands and bodies. Doesn’t make it “bad,” “wrong” or even “inappropriate.” Just makes it something to talk about!

“And @ Sarah: a huge Beach Boys fan here! But even the Beach Boys have drugs/sex references here and there in their music…”

Not the ones we listen to. 🙂

Jenn — I’m with you on not letting my younger kids listen to just anything. But not everyone likes the kind of stuff Raffi does (including me.) Just because it’s wholesome doesn’t mean people should or will like it, if it’s not to their musical taste. In fact I think it’s doing a disservice to our kids to teach them that second-rate kiddie music is the best thing going just because there’s nothing offensive about it and the people singing it are good people. Teaching them to like genuinely good music, with appropriate standards, is better.

I can say from first hand experience, the song is just plain out there in common, popular culture and it’s almost unavoidable. My son has sung the chorus, as have his friends (he reports). No one – me, the school, other parents – has overreacted.

Re: Michael Jackson and things being different in the 80s. Billy Jean was about a fan claiming to have had his unwed child. That’s just as challenging to discuss as “I’m Sexy.” The Eagles, Heartache Tonight, about doing it in the bushes. This is not new, although the use of music on commercials almost ensures it’s unavoidable. If adults overreact, it teaches these kids that these words are potent, powerful, and can be used. If adults do not overreact, the popularity fades. Do they realize later what they were singing? Probably. Are they scarred for life? Hardly!

@Emily: Oh, I totally agree with you. I was just kidding about M&Ms using sex back in the day (the limitations of comments to effectively communicate meaning). (And the joke was something that older kids were passing around, it really didn’t have anything to do with the candy, it was more just the use of the recognizable tag line as the punch line).

And @Sarah: You do have plenty to choose from that don’t make those references. In many ways, the Beach Boys’ music does reflect a more innocent time. And the songs are just catchy and fun! 🙂

Oop, I posted in the wrong post!!!

@Virginia, CYNDI LAUPER may not have sung “I touch myself” but she sang SHE BOP which was a song about masturbation.

I was a kid when Michael Jackson’s “Beat it” became a hit, but even then, we assumed it was a song about masturbation. The way he danced didn’t help matters.

Actually, I think that songs about masturbation are less offensive than “Sexy and I Know It,” because, controversial as it may be, masturbation is a way to celebrate one’s own sexuality, whereas “Sexy and I Know It” and its accompanying videos, etc., has a distinctive message about (literally) shoving sexuality in other people’s faces, by gyrating butts and crotches, coercing strangers into sexual activity, etc.

Jenn – Yes, I know what LMFAO means but my 6 year old doesn’t nor does she care while listening to the music. She doesn’t even understand that LMFAO stands for anything. And I do think the song is catchy. A damn sight better than Raffi. I’d rather blow my brains out then listen to Raffi. I bought a CD when my daughter was a baby because I thought it is what kids “should” listen to. I quickly threw it away. I’d rather have no music. Same with Disney and just about every other kid CD. I have a friend who makes kid music and I occasionally played that CD. We had another one that was a rock/reggae version of kids songs that even I liked.

I’m not sure why some insist on listening to crap that they hate just because kids are around. Occasionally pleasing your child with her favorite tunes is one thing, but subjecting yourself to a constant diet of music you would never listen to otherwise whenever your kids are around is ridiculous. My kid has always just listened to regular music – my CDs or the radio. She now has favorites from Elvis, Rolling Stones, Bob Marley, Patsy Cline, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Lady Antebellum, Sugarland, Justin Beiber, Adele.

I certainly don’t let my child listen to anything. I don’t play music with explicit lyrics – sex or violence – when my daughter is around but this song is pretty white bread. The sexual references go waaaay over little kids’ heads.

There is nothing new about all this. There are definitely songs that I listened to as a child that had sex and drug references that I understand now that I never got as a child. Every kid I knew walked around singing “Let’s Get Physical” and “Relax” but only those of a certain age understood them. Nobody pitched a fit over it or felt the need to sit their young children down to discuss them. The kids figured it out when it was time and were not traumatized.

And still none of this compares to the Brothers Grimm and their original and far more brutal versions of the cutesy Disney stories we have all grown to love. People in the 1800s knew better than to sissify their kids by not teaching them how much life sucks.

@oncefallendotcom, as far as I know, there are very few references to sex in Grimm’s tales that kids would understand? Admittedly, Little Red Riding Hood was originally a story about rape, but it was made into this story full of metaphores exactly to protect kids listening in from the truth.

“What exactly is wrong with thinking yourself sexy?”

Nothing if you are an adult. But why would anyone want their 6 year old singing they are “sexy”? Do you know the definition of “sexy”?

“sex ·y/ˈseksÄ“/
Adjective:
Sexually attractive or exciting.
Sexually aroused.”

Not for my kids. No thanks. That kind of stuff can wait for when they are older.

I don’t think that kids should be thinking of themselves as sexy. My comment was more at those who think this is such an awful song
in general. It’s an adult singing about being sexy. I was much more appalled by Britney Spears in her school girl outfit singing some of her songs. That was clearly about sexualizing children.

I simply see nothing wrong with my child being exposed to the term “sexy.” It’s a word that exists. If my child asks what it means, I’ll explain it. Just like I’ll eventually explain sex, masterbation, and everything else in this realm. I just don’t see the big angst over this. Understanding a word exists and what it means doesn’t control who you become.

A kid that copies a song that uses the word “sexy” is not a big deal to me. It doesn’t mean she actually sees herself as sexy at 6 any more than I did at that age just by listening to music. It simply means she likes the song. One of my first albums was The Wall. I didn’t become a drug addict because I sang songs about drugs in elementary school. I didn’t even get the full meaning until I watched the movie in college. I just liked the music – still do as I have the CD now and, even after 30 or so years of listening to the album, I still don’t do drugs. If my daughter were singing this stupid song, we’d discuss what it means but I wouldn’t stop her from singing it. She doesn’t need to be singing ANYTHING in class but that is a separate issue.

“You Sexy Thing” 1975 by Hot Chocolate – loved that song and sang it too…when I was kid.

The first time I ever heard my own kids (now 10 and 8) sing lyrics with “sexy” was a few years ago when they sang the song “I’m Too Sexy for My Shirt” (originally from 1991, long before they were born). At the time we did have a conversation about what “sexy” means.

Singing a song with the word “sexy” at home is one thing. Singing it at school while physically focused on a particular individual is another. You cannot convince me that kids don’t know one is OK (if their parents say so) and the other is NOT OK. Would any of you have seriously considered talking like that in your first grade classroom?

And if the refrain of the very popular song included the word “sexy” I sang it at school. I totally remember my crowd singing “If you want my body and you think I’m sexy, come along and let me know” and so on (or whatever the words are) for weeks in school. We sang it to each other. We sang it on the playground. We knew better than to sing ANYTHING in class. We were older than 6 but definitely not a sexy-appropriate age. Just like we frequently walked up to each other and said “Where’s the beef” and “Marcia, Marcia, Marcia” for no apparent reason. And tortured our friend Kristin for shooting JR and pretended to be Charlie’s Angels. Mimicking songs, commercials and TV shows is what kids do.

I remember listening to “Let’s get Physical” and singing during gym class too. The entire class. I think we were in late elementary school or middle school then. No school administrator or parent had a fit. Nobody claimed sexual harassment.

There is nothing sexy about “I’m sexy and I know it” video. The song is a parody. The actors in it are definitely not sexy, you do not have to be afraid that your daughter will put on make up because of it. However, she may come to the conclusion that boys are ugly.

@Donna I assume that he intended to act as a jerk, because he was previously told not to do it. So, even if the girl would found it funny, the teacher did not and he was acting like a jerk towards that teacher.

Jokes like this are funny if the audience finds them funny and the teacher counts as a member of that audience. Most jokes are offensive to somebody and polite behavior is not to do them when those offended are around.

I might find that joke funny when drinking with friends, but I would not found it funny if a college would do it in front of the client.

I thought “Let’s Get Physical” was literally a song about the benefits of exercise…….am I wrong on that, too?

Yikes, Amanda! Obviously I offended you. 🙁 That was not my intent. It is completely possible my kids may have heard part of that song somewhere. The thing is, when a car in the library parking lot is driving by you only hear a couple of seconds. Not enough to make a lasting impact. :/ We are lucky to live in a very free range neighborhood. In our little neighborhood on our street there are 6 families with kids our children’s ages. Unbelievably 3 of these families homeschool! It’s great because there are kids to play with even during school hours (when they aren’t doing their lessons, of course, LOL. 🙂 All of these families are ones with high values so I know these type of songs aren’t played in their homes. Of the other three families, 2 that I know of are good Christians with high values so I know their homes are safe, as well. The other home has a very nice single mother with a 7 year old daughter. Her standards aren’t that high, but her daughter is really only available to play on weekends, since her mother works until 6:00 and by the time they get home, have dinner, do homework, it’s time for bed. And on weekends she’s usually joining the crowd of other kids who tend to play outside mostly or congregate at 2 or 3 of the homes (ours included) that have kind of become “kid central”. 🙂 But none of the kids are really listening to music seriously or watching TV or playing video games. They are out and about playing and and using their imaginations. We actually don’t even own an IPod, LOL. We tend to believe in a more simplistic approach to parenting and don’t get into the high tech toys. Not that there’s anything wrong with those that do – assuming it’s not causing your kids to sit in front of TV/video games/handheld devices all day. It’s just not right for our family. We do own a TV, but don’t have cable. We have a CD player and shelf full of good clean CDs our kids listen and dance to and we’ve actually hosted a neighborhood dance party last year and everyone brought their favorite music. There wasn’t anything inappropriate and everyone had a blast! 🙂

@Elizabeth, Im sorry, but it is not because I don’t see it necessary to completely shield my child from popular culture that I have low standards or no values.

So when will you stop blocking your child’s ears when “these types of songs” are being played? When they’re 12, 16, 18? Does it make a difference whether they are exposed to them at 6 or 10 or 12? I don’t mind if my daughter hears sexual references. We talk a lot about what is appropriate and what not in that regard, not just in relation to kids, but also in relation to adutls acting in an overtly sexual manner. I reckon that will teach her more than shielding her from it.

I also don’t freak out if she is exposed to the odd swearword. We have also talked about that and she knows it is not appropriate for kids to use those words. Kids need to learn about context and accept that they should not be allowed to do something just because someone else is.

All these situations are much better learning opportunities than the santised kids-only stuff, imo.

Of course there are limits. Not letting them watch sex acts or extreme violence on tv, etc. But we are preparing our kids to live in an adult world. What better way than to use examples from this world to teach them?

Arcturus- what it comes down to is my definition of ‘turns out fine’ may be quite different that yours. Many of my cohorts and myself listened to the same music that older generations despised and some of us are very successful, happy and secure adults, and others are not. Was it the music? Of course not, but it was how our parents raised us to think and behave. My parents still allowed me to continue with what I was doing (as I also do with my children) but they informed me as to why they felt that it was inappropriate. Just as you introduced your nephew to Nazareth, you also taught him about the appropriate audience. The problem here is that many adults are not teaching children the appropriate forum for certain songs, nor are they having the dialogue that goes with these songs.

Kids do have different tastes which is why I’ve had my kids listen to a wide variety of music. Not just kids music from North America but around the globe. They listen to some Top 40, some classical, some folk, some indie, some rock, etc., I agree that children have different taste but I’m not limiting them to just MY music, but all music. Children’s music is a great place to start with since it crosses many borders, generations, eras, and genres. Raffi and The Wiggles are not the only children’s performers out there, they’re just some of the most recognizable. Many adult entertainers have recorded an album for kids (like Barenaked Ladies) which both kids and adults enjoy. With my earlier comment I was suggesting that instead of assuming that just because the song was written for children, it doesn’t mean that as an adult you won’t like it. Keeping an open mind to children’s music can teach your kids to tolerate other people’s music. As a society we are forced to listen to music when shopping, at weddings, at funerals, at sporting events, and some of it you will hate. We are allowed to hate it but we do need to tolerate it and demonstrate respect for the others who do want to listen to that song.

I allow my children to wear bathing suits when it is appropriate to wear a bathing suit (beach, pool, etc.,). We do not wear spaghetti straps as school wear as it is considered beach wear in our home. School is my child’s place of work and few places of work permit spaghetti straps on their employees. I know that in my place of employment and my husband’s, if an employee was to wear spaghetti straps, they would be disciplined. It is not professional, destroys credibility and it does not send the right message to our clients. What it comes down to is, I am teaching my children that the way we dress is dependent on the situation, projects an image or ourselves to the world and can influence how people treat you.

You are right that most kids pick up swearing from the media and peers but when the parents swear or allow swearing, they shouldn’t be surprised when their kids swear at them or at other adults. You say most good kids don’t swear at adults and use discretion. You would be surprised by what students are saying to their teachers today.

Nice to hear your parents did throw a fit at what music (or books) you were reading as a kid. I’m sure that someone made comment about this, perhaps behind your parents back? One of my 7 year old’s classmates recently read, “The Hunger Games” and all of the other parents knew about it. It is completely inappropriate for a child of this age to read this book and when the mother was bragging about it on the school yard that she let him read it because he can read challenging books (and that she was taking him to see the movie as a reward for finishing the book), parents criticized her to her face and behind her back. One parent told her, “I’m sure your child CAN read Playboy, but that doesn’t mean he should.” That’s what I tell my kids, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

And, by the way, I never said Disney had good role models so I’m not sure why that was brought up.

“@Elizabeth, Im sorry, but it is not because I don’t see it necessary to completely shield my child from popular culture that I have low standards or no values.”

Certainly I did not say or mean to imply in any way that you have “no” values. It’s just that even among free rangers everyone has different levels of standards and values – which is to be expected as we all come from different backgrounds and are of different progressions here in life. I personally believe sex to be something private and sacred that should ONLY be shared between a husband and wife. It is part of my religion and value base. I was raised that way, as was my husband and we are raising our children that way. So a song that celebrates being “sexy” is not something I would want my 6 year old emulating. I realize that most people nowadays fully expect their children to be sexually active by the time they graduate high school (and even before) so a song like this is just “life” and part of modern culture. It’s just not for our family and luckily the neighbors we have all feel the same way. (And no we’re not all the same religion.) 🙂 It would be like if there was a song celebrating the awesomeness of shoplifting, you would probably not be happy about your six year old emulating the song. Because that is a standard most people today still share. But in today’s times fornication is not viewed by most of the world as a sin. (Everyone sleeps with everyone and flaunts themselves in popular media and most people just expect you won’t wait until marriage.) I’m sure some people on here will view me as a prude, but thankfully being free range has nothing to do with being or not being a prude. 😉

Elizabeth, it’s nice to hear you say you believe in waiting until marriage. My wife and I also waited (yes, we are apparently nuts) and I actually just came across an interesting article about the subject. In it a study confirms that those who waited in the study had happier marriages and better sex in their marriage than those who didn’t.

http://waitingtillmarriage.org/study-couples-who-waited-have-happier-more-stable-marriages/

I also agree with several on here that 3 days of suspension might be a bit much, but consequences should definitely be administered and this is not an appropriate song to allow a young child to listen to.

To no one person in particular, I must say that this story has been taken out of context. So a 6 year old was singing a sexually provocative song. Whether or not you find this song offensive or not (or just distasteful) a 3 day punishment was not the appropriate action to be taken in this situation.

I moreso have a problem with the posters here who dissapprove of any type music that remotely has any suggestive themes, whether they be of drugs, sex, or violence. What kind of parent are you if your children can not make thier own choices, because you choose to ‘protect’ them and shield them from offensive media; which is usually done due to fear of negative influence or because it goes against YOUR traditional values. In my experience, those same kids when they enter adolescence tend to be much more rebellious in those years and tend to defy you the parent.

Not to strongly get into an arguement, but acts like this should generally be viewed as harmless and should not be at all used to pass judgement and predict the lifestyles and personalities of children today.

JENN – Wow you really give music, clothes and other pop culture a lot of power and parents and kids very little credit. It is truly sad that you have so little trust in your kids’ ability to understand your own family’s values and your own ability to instill them that you really believe that allowing a child to listen to a song by a group that named themselves LMFAO acts as a grant of unabridged power to cuss.

It further saddens me that you so judge people’s moral fiber based on what music they listen to, what they watch, how they talk and how they dress. Some of the best, most giving, most righteous people I know probably do not come close to fitting your bill.

I do very much raise my daughter today as I will as a teen. She will always be allowed to sing songs with the word “sexy” in them if she chooses. Because I understand that enjoying a song (and many things go into why we like particular songs) does not magically transform her to slut. It is interesting that you point out that actions speak louder than words but then put so much stock in the negative transforming powers of the words of LMFAO.

And at no point will I have to listen to a constant diet of music I don’t like. My kid doesn’t rule the roost. I’m more than happy to sometimes listen to her music, and now know the words to Justin Beiber songs to prove it. But we are not listening to her music every time we get into the car. I know many people who instantly put on a kid’s CD when their kids get into the car.

Elizabeth – SINGING a song and EMULATING a song are two totally different things. I allow my child to SING songs about shoplifting and with the word “sexy” in them. That does not mean that I encourage her steal and have sex at 6. The human species is perfectly capable of enjoying a song without wanting to act out every word in real life. We listened to “I Shot the Sheriff” and “The Long Black Veil” today. I’m not running out hunting law enforcement or having an affair simply because I listened to, and enjoyed, a couple songs.

“I also like that you have decided that the Hunger Games is inappropriate for ALL 7 year olds. Who died and made you the judge of appropriateness for ALL 7 year olds?”

Donna, a panel of experts have rated the movie “Hunger Games” inappropriate for children under 13 (PG-13 rating) and another panel of experts have rated the book inappropriate for kids under 12.

http://www.commonsensemedia.org/book-reviews/hunger-games

Like I said, we apparently all have different levels of standards. :/

Elizabeth – And the “panel of experts” talked to every single kid on the planet and determined what each individual kid is capable of and found no kid on the planet able to read this book? That is an impressive panel. Must have taken years.

I make my decisions based on what is appropriate for my child based on my own observations, values and child. I don’t let a “panel of experts” make my decisions for me. I haven’t let my daughter read the book or watch the movie because I don’t believe it is appropriate for her – or that she would have any interest or understanding. I don’t make that decision for anyone else. Their parents know them better. My ex read adult spy novels at 7. It was what interested him. I’m sure some “panel of experts” said that was wrong too.

I am certainly not saying that every 7 year old should read Hunger Games. You make your choices for your children and I’ll make my choices for mine. The high-and-mightiness and judgmentalness of the comment by JENN was what I was commenting on, not her choice to not let her own son read the book.

@Jenn,

You’re still not taking into account the child him or herself. The same nine year was introduced to Nazareth, also saw and read The Hunger Games, and LOVED IT. Same for the three preteens (two boys and a girl, they were around nine also) in the audience when I saw it the second time. After the movie was over they were literally in wide eye wonderment, they chatted about it for 15 minutes after. They fully understood the movie. THAT is what it’s all about, getting kids to think. I applaud the mother of that seven year old that gave her son the opportunity to ask questions and for critical thinking.

I’ll also second the other poster in saying that some kids are completely bored with “age appropriate” reading. In fact, controlled list like Accelerated Reader list, in reality, PENALIZE or severely discourages off list reading.

I threw my other post away last night, I was too tired and parts of it didn’t make sense, but in answer to children cussing. I’m a sub teacher with a teaching degree, I deal with the effects of helicopter/neglectful parenting everyday. Kids usually use discretion when using cuss words..

. What part of “fight to the death” is appropriate for children? Kind of the whole point of the book itself which is completely lost on children.

^But you DON’T KNOW THIS. I see ten and under kids reading Hunger Games and it’s sequels in the schools all the time. Don’t underestimate what kids can do. I once taught a ten year old girl about basic electronics and she fixed a piece of equipment for me in an emergency. That repair, done almost 17 years ago, is still going strong.

@Elizabeth,

Do you live in the UK or Europe? Sexuality is viewed completely differently over there. The ironic thing is that it’s VIOLENCE that does more damage than sexuality.

I looked at the actual study and I do not read the results as media having more influence than peers or parents. http://teenmedia.unc.edu/pdf/JAH.pdf Some influence maybe, but that doesn’t mean they would go against their religion or parents because of it. I wish you would have more faith in you own parenting and in your kids when you consider these kind of moral issues, instead of feeling the need to lock your kids in a cultural bubble. Especially as shielding kids from real life does not teach them how to cope with it. I would rather expose my child in small, age-appropriate doses to media so I can teach her on how to interpret it.

“you claim you don’t let a panel of experts make decisions for you then how do you choose movies? find a doctor? hire a babysitter?’

Hmmm. I hire my doctors solely based on recommendations by other people I know whose opinion I value. I’ve never actually read a single panel of experts review on a doctor I’ve ever seen. Same with babysitters. Word of mouth is sufficient.

As for movies, I view the ratings as GUIDELINES. I don’t lock myself in stone based on the ratings. If my child wants to see a PG-13 movie at 9, I don’t foreclose the option because she’s not yet 13. I talk to others who have seen the movie, read up on the movie and possibly go see it myself. I then consider what I know about my child and what I know about the movie and make a determination as to whether it would be best for my particular child to see this particular movie.

I do the same with books. So the fact that Hunger Games is only recommended for those 12 and up is not more conclusive to me than a PG-13 movie. It is a guideline. Some kids can read it at 7 and some probably shouldn’t read it at 14. I’m not going to evaluate other people’s children’s ability to read the book unless I know them pretty well.

“You don’t have to have read the book to know that it is not appropriate for young children.”

So you believe yourself to be the authority on determining what other people should do about a book that you’ve never even read? Wow.

Actually Donna I never claimed to not have read the book. I believe it was Arcturus who did but I may be mistaken. I have read all of Suzanne Collins books so I speak from experience, that is not a book for seven year olds, and particularly not the seven year old in question.

You fail to see that we’re working from a similar thread, that there are guidelines for movie viewing ages and we both consider the information to make the decision as to whether or not our children should or should not see a particular movie. The thing is many parents don’t and feel that if a movie is made, then there child should see it. Again I come back, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. This can be applied to many scenarios (I can call my boss a name but I shouldn’t, I can eat chips for dinner, but I shouldn’t, I can stay up to 2 am, but I shouldn’t, I can beat my neighbour senseless for waking me up at 2am, but I shouldn’t).

I give kids a lot of credit but I don’t just send them out to explore adult issues and topics without guidance and that is what is missing, most kids don’t have an adult who is guiding them through the media jungle that is out there. I see this in the classrooms that I teach in, the sports fields that I coach on and the children that I counsel at a family wellness centre. One colleague read The Hunger Games with her 8th grade class (13 and 14 year olds) and they struggled with many of the ideas in the text and thought that “it would be cool to play in the Hunger Games”. If you read Brain Theory, you will see how the adolescent brain is not fully developed and is not able to cognitively understand concepts like an adult can. The brain does not reach maturation until approximately age 22. This is why kids need guidance! We don’t send them off into the world without a little guidance, modelling or help. The best parents (and I see many of them here) teach their kids how to do something before they send them off to do it independently. The same applies here. We have our kids listen to music, watch movies, read books that are at their cognitive level of understanding and discuss it with them and as their brains `are exercised’ we move on to more mature and complicated themes and ideas. I also figure why waste watching a great movie or book at a young age when you can’t fully appreciate it. My husband waited until our son was 7 to watch Star Wars the first time and it was a complete joy for everyone to have him watch, appreciate and love something.

“You fail to see that we’re working from a similar thread, that there are guidelines for movie viewing ages and we both consider the information to make the decision as to whether or not our children should or should not see a particular movie.”

This difference is that I’m only making the decision for MY child. You think that the decision that you make for your children applies to ALL children and, if the other parent doesn’t agree, they’re wrong. If another parent does something different, they are relegating their children to a horrible, immoral life. The fact that I decided not to take my 6 year old to see Hunger Games has no relevance as to whether my friend was correct in taking her 6 year old. Our children are not the same people. Her decision as to what is appropriate for her child is for her, and nobody else, to make.

“I also figure why waste watching a great movie or book at a young age when you can’t fully appreciate it.”

Because appreciation is a ever changing process. I read the Great Gatsby in high school and loved it. I read the Great Gatsby in college and loved it. The things I enjoyed, appreciated and understood changed between the two readings. My understanding was completely different when viewed through a 14 year old brain and experiences and a 21 year old brain and experiences. I haven’t read it since but I imagine that what I find there would be different now that it is being viewed with a 42 year old brain and experiences.

“This is why kids need guidance!”

Of course kids need guidance. Nobody said otherwise. We’re talking about sheltering kids from pop culture, not guidance.

I know a lot of people on here who have said they use these racy type songs as conversation pieces to discuss sexual stuff with their kids. I wasn’t allowed to listen to stuff like this as a kid – I’m 20 and in college – yet my parents never had a hard time finding opportunities to discuss sex with me. I think they did a pretty good job, too, conveying the importance of waiting for marriage. I have 5 older siblings that all waited for marriage and my fiance and I are also waiting. I have friends who parents also talked to them about waiting for marriage but allowed them to watch and listen to popular music and television programs that portrayed the opposite. I know personally these friends have not waited. And many before the end of high school. They aren’t sluts or anything. I just think it became a part of them somehow, you know? I do wonder if maybe media has more to do with it than we think. Maybe not. Maybe my parents were just better conversationalists, LOL. 🙂 But it’s at least worth considering.

Thank you Dave and Tricia. What’s sad is that my 5 year old in kindergarten has been teased all year because in the fall the teacher had the kids do a bar graph about their favourite TV show. My daughter picked The Backyardigans and has been continuously teased about it all year by a group of students who say it’s for babies and have ridiculed her for it. They are five years old but Backyardigans is too babyish for them! I know plenty of adults (childless, empty nesters and parents) that have enjoyed this show because of the brilliant animation (those background wipes has changed animation), catchy songs and fun story lines. Because it’s been an ongoing issue in the classroom, I spoke to the teacher and found out that these students had said their favourite TV shows were Bachelorette, Survivor (a show I enjoy but is not intended for kids- they just don’t understand that the name-calling and bullying is not how people should treat each other in the real world), Family Guy and True Blood.

You think that your choices for your family do not impact my family but it does when your child ridicules mine, and coerces others to join in. A line needs to be drawn. I can only imagine the peer pressure my kids will face as they enter their teen years. Kids as young as grade 6 are sexting, coming to school high (and it’s not just marijuana), having co-ed sleep-overs, swearing at adults like teachers and police officers and drinking alcohol in order to get through the day. If you think it’s not happening in your community, then you are fooling yourself. Someone, somewhere has lead these kids astray and their parents probably thought when their kids were a couple of years younger that they were raising their kids right. Problem is you don’t know until you get there that you made some mistakes and it’s hard to go back.

The running joke with teachers is “don’t smile until Christmas” (think figuratively here). The reason is that if you start off lenient, it’s really hard to assert yourself and regain classroom management. If you start with firm standards of behaviour and are consistent, you can lighten up as the year goes on. You give the kids more responsibilities, more privileges because they have proven that they can handle it.

In my first post I said how my 7 year old was singing this song and we had a dialogue about what sexy meant. He didn’t like that he was singing a song about “wanting to have girls hug and kiss him” and now chooses not to. The key is that dialogue piece that many parents are missing and in the dialogue you are stating what your expectations are as a parent for how your child is to conduct themselves when you are not around.

Again, with the Survivor isn’t appropriate for kids. You seem completely unable to understand that not appropriate for your kids doesn’t mean that it’s not appropriate for my kids (who has actually never watched Survivor.

The problem with your view is that where you want to the line and what you consider lenient is not the same as what I think. I have a different set of values and a different set of expectations. I’m not planning to raise my child to match your set of values and your set of expectations.

It seems like you want the rest of the world to move to your standards so that your kids don’t want to do things you don’t approve of. That’s not the way it works. Everyone gets to choose what is right for their family. If you want to uphold standards different from the norm, you have to deal with hour children being outside the norm. This doesn’t mean that you need to change your standards, but you do need to accept that there will be a certain amount of peer pressure and desire of the part of your children to conform with the norm.

And yes all those things you mention happen in schools. But it is far from the majority. Every kid is not sexting, drinking and getting high. In fact, few are – even out of those who watch Survivor and the Bachelor. And, yes, things have gone astray for some kids. As a juvenile public defender, I assure you that their problems are far more extensive than what music they listen to and their favorite Tv shows.

@Jenn First of all: current generation takes less drugs and commits less violent crime then previous generation did. Teen pregnancies are going down too. There is peer pressure, there are problems, sexting can land the kid in sex offenders list and so on, but the world is generally much less dark then you seem to think.

Second: this whole discussion about books started, because the group of parents you wrote about treated a mother badly because she allowed her kid to read a book you do not approve of.

Some kids in school treated your daughter badly (for far too long), because she likes different show.

In my mind, those are very similar actions. The kids in the school are doing something bad and should stop. The parents in the group should stop to enforce they rules into other parents too.

Both situations have been about individual not confirming to the group.

Third: the reoccurring theme is your posts is a kid not able to understand everything in the book. I do not see it as a bad thing, good books have multiple layers and if the kid picks up only the plot, then it is still fine. It will understand the rest later on.

I would remove the book if I would know that the kid reacts badly after reading similar books. Unless the girl is long known trouble maker and her parents do not care, I see it as my duty to say nothing about their parenting. Whether I agree or not, they know about her much more then me and it is not my business anyway.

The mother who allowed her son to read Hunger Games was treated badly by a parent. This came after she bragged to a group of parents how brilliant her son is because he is reading the Hunger Games. Then her child assaults other kids at recess, acting out and yelling lines from the book. Not surprised that parents have told the mother that they disagree with her parenting style. In the past, many people were involved with the raising of children which is how societal norms was passed down. Now, it’s every parent for themselves so it’s no surprise that when you are far from the norm, other parents are going to speak up. Especially when you invite the dialogue by bragging about your child.

I can see here why it’s so hard for children to read and understand particular ideas in texts when some adults here misinterpret what I have written.

“Whether allowing toddlers to watch porn is abuse is a different matter.”

There’s no law against it. Therefore it’s the parent’s decision. Either you agree it’s the parent’s decision or you agree that there IS a line to be drawn on what is morally appropriate. If you agree there IS a line to be drawn, then you can’t say that anyone on here who is choosing to live by higher moral standards than you is shielding or sheltering their kids too much. (And I’m speaking to everyone who thinks that way, not just the person who made the quote.) That’s all I’m saying.

As for the 50’s reference, I was referring to the fact that from a moral standpoint this song would have once been considered deplorable. Thereby proving my point that morals are declining in our nation. How can something once considered wrong now be right from a moral standpoint? I have no idea if you are Christian or not or what your values relating to sex are, but the Bible clearly states that fornication is a sin. Yet in modern society it is no longer considered a sin. Christ did not come down and declare it’s suddenly fine to have premarital relationships, so I’m assuming what He taught still stands. Yet we, as a people, have decided for ourselves it is alright. Like I said, if you aren’t Christian, this will mean nothing to you, but if anyone on here IS Christian, it’s something to think about.

And @linvo, being free range does not mean you have to have low standards and morals. Free range is about independence and self sufficiency. Not about following the crowd to fit in and saying, “well, since everyone else in the world is doing it and says it’s OK, then it must be true.” I, along with others on here, can teach my kids to stand up for what they believe in and not follow the crowd. And they can still ride their bikes to the park and library and do chores for neighbors to earn money for their mother’s birthday present. It doesn’t make us any less free range. (I know you were talking to Jenn and Elizabeth, but I appear to feel the same way they do on the topic, so I just wanted to speak up.)

@Jenn,

I’m a sub teacher with a Elementary teaching degree. I’m around kids pretty much every day. I see kids under ten reading Hunger Games and it’s sequels all the time. They fully understand what it’s about.

As for Hunger Games, who cares if they understand it? Do we want to desensitize young kids to violence? Those books can get pretty graphic. The more you are exposed to something the more comfortable you get with it. I don’t think it’s a good idea to expose young kids to GRAPHIC violence. Sure they can read stories about death and bad things happening. (Half of all fairy tales and classic literature have these things.) But the explicitness of violence I don’t think is a good idea for any young child to be reading.

@Arcturus -I’m a Reading Recovery consultant who trains teachers on how to teach reading and work with reading intervention strategies for at risk students (originally trained as a teacher and have been promoted to work outside the classroom). Literacy rates are declining yet in the few schools you have worked at, kids under ten are reading and FULLY understanding The Hunger Games. Find that hard to believe because even if you only look at the data on reading comprehension (and I’m not talking about just standardized tests) kids are failing in many areas, even in enjoying reading for the fun of it. Another posting on here weeks ago brought up the issue of that a majority of high schoolers are reading below a grade 5 reading level. What’s your secret to having such strong readers who don’t just decode the words on a page that the rest of the world is missing? I’m around kids every day as well and have been doing this for over 20 years so I can assert that kids don’t know what they are reading.

@Donna -Nice to see that you can draw a line but the rest of us can’t, just because our morals are different. You say letting a toddler watch porn is abuse (which I agree) but that is you drawing a line and I’m sure many disagree with both of us. What I hear is you feeling threatened by my ability to say to stand up to believe and support my convictions. You can have different values and expectations, I am just expressing that I feel that some people have lower standards than I do and I’m not afraid to shape future generations. You say “Everyone gets to choose what is right for their family” but this is furthest from the truth. You conform with the laws of your community and the cohort norms established by your community group. If you had the right to do what you wanted with your family, you could sell your child into prostitution and drugs without consequence. Is that a line that you draw as well?

Being a free range parent is about teaching your child to be independent and a self-sufficient advocate. My kids have a lot of freedoms compared to their peers (using public washrooms solo, starting a snow shovelling business, having a lemonade stand, walking home from school on their own, going to the park and forest on their own and more). I teach them how to do something independently by modelling with them how to do it, guiding them through their first attempt and then let them go if they are ready. Many parents think that Free Range is about giving the child freedom and letting them run wild. Many people think that FRK have no respect for adults, have too much freedom and cause havoc in their community (see the video Lenore posted about Bubble Wrapped Kids) By establishing my family’s standards for behaviour and morals, they are not going to be giving Free Range Kids a bad reputation, nor will they make me regret giving them their freedom that they have earned. Their freedom is a privilege and if they abuse it, they lose it.

So why did you ask her if she was sure about using the word sexy in a poem about her mom? Could it be that the word was inappropriate or was being used in an inappropriate manner for the relationship? Did you even ask her if she knew what the word meant? She may have said the word just popped into her head because it did but she also realized when you questioned her using the word, that maybe she should not be using that word.

Because I have a reasonable idea of what her family is like, and I’m familiar enough with this child that I trust her judgement. She’s extremely intelligent but has problems with her peers because of it. I didn’t make a big deal of it because it really wasn’t and she didn’t bother to pursue it further. While most of the time, she’s quiet, she can be a real handful if she’s crossed.

Reading this story reminds me of two separate incidents that to me speak volumes about our society’s “freak out” reaction to anything sexual. Watching a Bond movie with my neighbors and their children (5 & 7), they would cover their eyes every time a sexual scene came on, but blithely allowed them to watch all the shocking violence in the movie. About a year later, my nephew was suspended because he had used the word “breast” in a google search on a school computer that had turned some inappropriate results. My mother had just been diagnosed with breast cancer and he wanted to learn more about what was happening with Grandma. When the inappropriate content showed up, he got suspended.

Seriously, folks, sex is not bad. Sexual harassment is bad, but we have been become so sensitive that we just assume that a child imitating a commercial, or researching his Grandma’s illness is engaged in inappropriate behavior.

And don’t get me started on use of language. I was called by my daughter’s daycare (she is 4) because of a “bullying” incident. Another Mom had called to complain that my daughter had used the words ‘vagina’ and ‘penis’. Ummm, what is she supposed to call them? Why are we so afraid to use correct, anatomical terms to describe body parts? In fact, I have read that kids who are taught to use proper terms are less likely to fall prey to on-line predators.

Our hyper sensitivity to all things sexual is turning us into crazy people!

@Jenn What I will write is highly unscientific, but here it goes anyway: there seems to be a correlation between places that allows kids to read grown up books and places where kid read a lot. Places that limits kids literature to “age appropriate” have less readers.

The correlation is visible in this thread and my experience has been similar. As I told, it is highly unscientific observation.

I know for a fact,that I would not read as much as I did, if they would not gave me access to grown up books. Some of them have been plain violent with no other message, most of them did not. Most of “age appropriate” had been predictable – there was no surprise and no challenge.

Last note: literacy going down in your school and in overall stats does not necessary means that literacy levels are going down in every American school. It is quite possible that Arcturus works in a school with better students. It is quite possible that their reading abilities are much higher than reading abilities of at risk students.

Since when does age appropriate equate to predictable literature? I worked as a nanny in university and my 8 year old charge was reading Pride and Prejudice. From there she moved on to classics that her parents had read and thought she would enjoy. And you don’t have to stick to the classics either: Philip Pullman, Eion Colfer, Richard Adams, Natalie Babbitt, Louis Sachar, Farley Mowat, and Gary Paulsen just to name a few. Clearly you need to visit a library to see there is more to children’s literature than the boring predictable books of your personal library. Did you not cover children’s literature in your education program at university? Because if all you can recommend to your strong readers is to read adult books then you are really limiting an amazing world of fantastic literature that is a cornerstone to your own cultural syllabus.

Jenn –

But why should they HAVE to limit themselves to children’s literature because they are under 18? If they want to read an adult book – if that is what interests them and they are able to read it – why not allow them to read it?

Clearly there are going to be adult books that I find appropriate for my child and some that I don’t. (Notice that I say MY child not ALL children as I don’t determine what is appropriate for ALL children nor do I care what other people allow their children to read). But books are not forbidden just because they are in the adult section of the library.

@Jenn

I’m almost done with this conversation. I’m tired of going in circles.

Books in my current library-

The Girl Who Owned a City-OT Nelson. This book is for middle grades and is unbelievably haunting. The subject matter is almost to the level of Stephen King. ( I STILL read this one about once a year)

The Girl with the Silver Eyes-Willow Davis Roberts

Jane-Emily-Patricia Clapp (ghost story about revenge from the grave)

All the Philip Pullman books, which I found riveting. Some very deep subjects being explored in those books.

I TALKED to this author and she helped with a novel I’m writing. One of her characters is sort of like my main one.

http://www.chriseboch.com/

Louis Sachar I’ve read.

Wrinkle in Time.

There’s others too.

I’ll make it a point to ask D. tomorrow and report back on what’s she currently reading.

Also, I’ve spent HOURS shelving books in school libraries over the years. I see what they are reading, and sometimes, I even come across a good one.

@Jenn
1.) I said most, not all.

2.) That is what I remember from childhood. I came into library, went to 12-14 (say) bracket, picked random book and it was predictable and boring. Then I went into bigger bracket, picket up random book and it was interesting. Almost all the science fiction has been in adult bracket.

Pride and Prejudice has very adult themes in it by the way and was written for adults. It is not typical kids book.

“Did you not cover children’s literature in your education program at university?”

I studied computer science. The program focused on math and programming.

@ Jenn wearing army gear DOES NOT send a message that fighting and war is cool… it’s fuckin play acting, stop reading so much into it. why is it ok for these little girls to play mummy with their dolls? OMFG sexualization! you need to have SEX to have a baby…
now excuse me while I turn up ” So Hott” by Kid Rock while my eight year old son plays Call of Duty – Black Ops…

Thanks Andy. Although I kinda like being considered the single cause of the decline of all of society. I’m giddy with power. Let’s what what other havoc I can wreck in society from my little island in the South Pacific.

Jenn, this is NOT the board for these type of arguments. Parents here set a very LOW line for standards. But you know what is right and I completely agree with you and hope you will continue to give your kids a childhood and not rush them into adulthood by allowing them to view, listen to, and read about so many adult topics/situations. Kudos to you for standing up for what is right and protecting their innocence. That used to be considered good parenting (Ironically in the days where everyone was free range this was considered good parenting.) It still is considered good parenting in many places. But not on here. Kids=mini Adults on this site. :/

@Really Bad Mum, I have already raised my children. They are all 5 happily married with kids of their own. They are all actively involved in their communities and churches. They are all financially secure with no debt – except for mortgages. They do not need looking after at all. They are actually looking after a lot of poor, unfortunate folks through volunteering in various aspects through their church and communities. And they are doing a fine job raising my grandkids in the much the same manner they were raised. 🙂

I never said your kids weren’t healthy, happy, or safe. I also never said that I don’t expect my kids to take responsibility for their mistakes. We have taught that from day one. We made sure they took responsibility from the time they were teeny tiny for the mistakes they made and so by the time they were older they knew how to make good choices and I don’t believe any of them ever had any really bad experiences come from making any major mistakes, thankfully. They’ve all been good kids and are now good citizens who are actively involved with serving others. I was just saying from the viewpoint of an old man who’s been around many years that parents today have lowered their standards and values significantly. So it’s nice to see some who choose to raise their kids with the good old fashioned values of times past. I wasn’t judging any one person on here, and I’m sorry if you thought I was. I do apologize for the miscommunication. I was speaking of folks and society in general. I was also speaking of the group in general on here, as well. Simply from facts others have voluntarily offered, (including swear words in some of their conversations), it is a simple deduction that not everyone believes in the same level of standards that Jenn and some others on here have. That is not judgement, but simply a factual observation. As an extreme example, I’m pretty sure all of us on here can agree that a serial killer has lower standards than we do. We would not go around torturing and killing others. We can all agree that is wrong. Should we all say that killer is going to hell? No, that would be judging. God is merciful and only He knows that person’s life and circumstances. But it is acceptable to look at a serial killer and say to ourselves, “That is wrong. He should not do that and neither should I.” That is an example of righteous judgement, that is mentioned in the Bible.

@Really Bad Mum: ” why is it ok for these little girls to play mummy with their dolls? OMFG sexualization! you need to have SEX to have a baby…”

FYI you can get pregnant without having sex.
I’m not sure what this comment has to do about wearing army clothing. Are you trying to refer to gender stereotyping of children’s play? I have children of both genders and they play equally with dolls, barbies, Lego, superheroes, cars, etc., My son has transformed his barbie into a super hero while my daughter is a tutu-wearing construction worker.

Your comments that your ’13 year old dresses like a skank’ and is ‘Princess Bitchface’ are judgements. So apparently you’re just like me! I’m sure many of us look back at how we dressed at that age and shudder. My kids are still young enough that I can control what they wear by not allowing particular clothing items into our home. One clothing choice that we avoid is army gear. When my son was born a family friend gave him a complete army fatigue outfit and it made me uncomfortable. Why is a baby being dressed to kill? It made me rethink how I see the world. Is it necessary to have children surrounded by images of violence? Army clothing as mainstream wear grew out of a culture that viewed fighting as fun, exciting and cool. Do my kids play fight? Absolutely! And I don’t step in either! They can learn negotiation skills, strength and how to lose (I have written a magazine article about the power of play fighting). But I draw the line at letting my kids think that going to war and fighting is fun. It is not fun. People get hurt. We have friends and family with military backgrounds and they also agree with my view that having young children wear army clothing sends kids the wrong message about war. I’d rather my kids grow up with the message that they have a responsibility to be peace keepers.

You say that most free range parents discuss things with their kids before they let them do things but you refused to talk with your 7 year old about condoms when he was asking about them. 7 may seem young to discuss condoms but there are kids who haven’t reached puberty yet with an STI.

@ Donna and Andy: Sarcasm, people sarcasm. Just further supports my argument that kids don’t understand what they’re reading.

@Andy: I have not attacked you nor anyone on here personally. I have stated what I do or don’t allow my children to do. Some people are reading into my posts as a personal attack on their values. I don’t view your values as immoral but as different than mine. Just because I have a different point of view, it does not mean that I am attacking you.

I should have references my comment referring to sarcasm. When I stated that Donna was responsible for the declination of society I was using sarcasm. Not trying to offend you but if adults can’t read to understand then how can you expect kids to?

FYI the word is impolite. How about telling off Really Bad Mum now for swearing at posters? That is quite impolite. But is it because she supports your argument that she is exempt from `your standards’ of appropriate conduct? Is there an appropriate way that we as humans should conduct ourselves? Sounds like the position I had in regards to what books kids should read, songs they should sing, and clothes they should wear. Black kettle there???

@ Really Bad Mum -I agree that there is a lot the military has done for peacekeeping efforts. I just like to show my support in a different way with my children. They wear a poppy at Remembrance Day and we have joined the Highway of Heroes procession for fallen soldiers. I’m not against what the military has done but how the perception of war has become glamorized by pop culture (For example, pink army fatigues. How are you supposed to be camouflaged in war with pink fatigues? Maybe if you were in cognito with flamingos or in Barbie’s mansion but I don’t see the military suiting up their troops in pink camo.)

I agree with you that some kids understand the words and some kids don’t. That’s why I fell it’s important for parents from both sides to discuss with their kids what the lyrics mean. I didn’t say that it should be banned from kid’s listening ears (my own child has heard the song and sang it) but that we should try as parents to monitor what they are exposed to.

@Jenn.

Aside from being in a much better mood this time around, (unfortunately I probably let her get away with a lot more that I should have, It was an “interesting” day. but that’s beside the point.) D. said that she had read Hunger Games, as it turned out that most of the class had. When asked specifically, she had said that she did understand it as the rest of the class had also, (the ones who had read it)

Right now she’s currently reading a Captain Underpants book, but it’s also the end of the year and they can’t check out books from the library anymore. Choices are limited.

As for the rest of the thread, you have a tendency to ignore information that supports the other poster’s side, or throw red herrings in.

My question to you is this.

Why are you still here if it’s obvious there’s such a wide gap in philosophies?

Jean – The fact that I didn’t understand your ineffective sarcasm relates to kids reading how? I’ve reread the statement, knowing it’s intended as sarcasm, and I still don’t find it particularly effective sarcasm.

“I have stated what I do or don’t allow my children to do.”

If that was ALL you had done, this entire thread would have ended days ago. You’ve consistently and repeatedly said that kids who are allowed to do things that you don’t allow your kids to do “lack parenting.” That these items you’ve banned for your children are inappropriate for ALL children. You’ve said kids who listen to “I’m Sexy and I Know it” are going to grow up to be oversexed harlots. You may honestly believe that you are not being judgmental but every word you type is dripping with it.

@Jenn The part about being impolite was a reaction to Charles and the declination of society comment. You meant the declination comment differently, but I did now knew that previously. Charles’s “Parents here set a very LOW line for standards” is a personal attack however you slice it.

“FYI the word is impolite.”

OK, sorry for that.

“How about telling off Really Bad Mum now for swearing at posters? ”

I’m not planning to be a police for each offensive or swearing post here. But mostly, I mind swear words less then suggestion that we have low standards or we are stupid. One does not make me angry enough to write a comment, other does.

I’m not native English speaker, so English swear words are just words for me, there is no special emotion or reaction. I did not really read that comment, only scanned through it. It did not had new arguments in it.

Wow. I am amazed with what I have read here. When my son got in trouble, he had no idea why. He didn’t know what he was saying. We cannot shelter our kids from everything. This song plays everywhere, radio,tv, grocery store and anywhere else that has a set of speakers. It would be nice if we could just tell our kids,”hey, close your ears for a few minutes please.” But we can’t, so for those of you who are soooo judgemental and quick to put blame on someone, think about the last time you or someone you care about got in trouble for something that could not be avoided. At some point, it happens to all of us.

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