Dear Readers: To this note from a local school I would add, “And parents, please consider a lobotomy for your children so they are not inclined to move or talk much. This will make the bus stop a safe experience for all!” – L.
Dear Free-Range Kids: While I sometimes disagree with you quite strongly, I also find your ideas very helpful in shaking up my parenting, and you have prompted me to reflect, “Am I being overprotective/over-controlling/ridiculous?” before making decisions about my kids’ activities.
So when I saw this bus safety handout (below), I thought of you immediately. Yes, there is a lot of good information about bus safety in this document, but the prominent admonition not to play or make noise at the bus stop leaped out at me and made me snort! We’re lucky enough to have a bus stop right in front of our house, and I can testify that expecting children not to play and make noise while waiting for the bus is the height of idiocy.
Thanks for challenging me (and the rest of us potential helicopter parents) to parent a little more thoughtfully.
Cheers, Christine
142 Comments
I wonder where these people live that they can say both “stay 12 feet away from the street” and “respect private property” with a straight face.
I’m not so sure that the rule about being quiet at the bus stop is so much a “safety” rule, as it is a “manners” rule. After all, some school buses come between 7 and 8 in the morning, and some people in the houses surrounding the bus stop may be still sleeping. So, I think the way to fix this would be, not to eliminate the rule about noise and horseplay (although normal conversation should be allowed), but rather, change the handout/presentation from “bus safety” to “bus safety and consideration,” or simply “bus rules.”
I guess I see it more as a manners thing. In our neighborhood, the houses are fairly close to the street and a lot of noise could be annoying to the homeowner.
That being said, I have never seen any kind of rules in regards to waiting for the bus. The only thing we get is a schedule and a description of the route. It hasn’t been a problem here. I have never seen the kids do anything but talk to each other. As a kid, I don’t remember “playing” at the bus stop.
In the quiet suburb where I grew up, I used to sit on the curb with my feet in the street. My mom would tell me not to do it because someone driving a car might not see me there. As if I wouldn’t see a car coming and have the sense to move my feet. 🙂
Or…you could be in an area where they don’t even have bus stops. For reasons that I’m sure I could never wrap my brain around, the bus stops at each and every house in our neighborhood!!!! It is such a waste of time and funding!! We have a neighborhood that is four blocks wide. Surely the children could all wait at the entrance and the bus could stop once?!
Even though we homeschool, our yard has become the unofficial bus stop toward the back of our neighborhood. On a good morning I’ll see as many as 18 kids playing basketball at our hoop or football in the street. The older ones are often tucked up by my front door talking and messing on their phones.
But quiet?! That they are not. And I love every minute of it!!
12′ is the standard lane width of a road. Maybe thinking that a car that is going off the road will have room to maneuver and not hit/hurt anyone if the children stay that far away. That said a bus driver may not see the children if they are that far from the road depending on obstructions i.e. trees, houses. When I was a kid my bus stop was along the main highway through our town at a local gas station. We played around and did some stupid stuff but no one was hurt, wet maybe b/c of the ditch that was there and sometimes someone would fall in. Now the same bus picks up on the side streets at the end of driveways. It was a 2 block walk to the bus stop before. “It’s not safe to have kids standing on a corner of the highway waiting for the bus”.
Of course THESE kids need to be quiet and not play at the bus stop. Afterall, they have to stand in the middle of some neighbor’s yard in order to be 12 feet from the curb. That is already fairly obnoxious so it would be really rude if they were also making a lot of noise in said yard.
Actually, I don’t think those two particular rules are bad. While I don’t really expect kids to be perfectly quiet and not play at the bus stop, I am not opposed to them occasionally being reminded to be conscientious of their neighbors. Now the 12 feet from the curb rule is idiotic.
But… but…
I feel a total alien reading this.
So, the neighbors’ yards reach all the way to the actual road – no sidewalk, no line of parked cars (I won’t even start about a bike path). That sounds like a neighborhood street to me (who wants to sit in their yard with cars whizzing by at high speed?). But despite it being a neighborhood street with kids waiting for the bus, cars do go fast enough for kids to not be able to wait safely within 3.6 meter from the edge of the road?
And despite the traffic noise those cars already cause, the kids need to be quiet, not just ‘don’t scream/yell’, but quiet?
I agree with the manners speculation. My neighbor’s daughter has to board her bus at 6:30 a.m.! That’s a post in itself, I think.
I can see the “no running, no playing” rule. The bus stop is not a playground. The sidewalk is not a safe place for a full-speed game of tag. I would not want to be a bus driver pulling up to a stop a bunch of kids running around.
There are places for playing and places for waiting politely. That seems like an important thing to learn.
hmm, sidewalks here aren’t 12 feet wide, so can’t obey rule #1.
Rest follows along the same pattern.
I’ll tell kids they can’t play or talk at bus stops when people stop smoking and drinking beer there.
Asking them to be considerate and not shout, watch where they’re going I’d fully agree with.
That’s just part of growing up, knowing to behave…
1-The sidewalks aren’t anywhere near 12 feet wide here, in fact, I’ve never lived anywhere that 12 feet from the street wouldn’t put you well in someone’s front yard.
2-Since the first rule negates the 2nd rule about private property, well…..
3-Yes, you can have rules about being quiet, not playing, etc. Yes, it’s nice if kids act mannerly. Personally, I think it’s unrealistic to expect, though. Get a group of kids together, and play happens.
I agree with the others and think most of these are manners not safety.
My school used the giant steps thing during our walk/ride to school safely unit in PE. Kids find that much easier to understand. Most places i know that rule and the not going on private land rule aren’t going to match up.
For all of you agreeing with the be quiet, and no playing…………..stop being cranky old person. For crying out loud, if the sound of children bothers you, then move to an adult community.
There are enough times in a child’s life that they are expected to wait quietly and orderly. When they are alone with their friends is not one of them.
These rules sound a lot like the paranoia from our bus driver last year (not school district rules). She was so worried about kids moving that she threatened to call the police if I didn’t hold my son’s hand.
There’s a difference between teaching kids to be respectful of private property and other people and setting strict rules that will surely be broken.
Why is it that kids are perfectly fine at a bus stop, playing in a yard, walking along the sidewalk, when normal traffic goes past, but we suddenly expect them to run into the street when there’s a school bus involved?
A lot of rules like the 12′ one above aren’t about safety so much as an idea of safety. There’s a difference.
Maybe I’m alone in this, but I kind of like the sound of kids on their way to and from school – it reminds me of when I was one of them! As long as they’re not actively screaming or throwing rocks at my window, I don’t mind a little noise, even at seven in the morning.
Read it and weep:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/07/08/children-left-in-hot-cars-a-deadly-combination-that-must-stop/?hpid=z4
What’s to weep about? It’s deadly and negligent to forget your child in the car on a hot day for a few hours. It’s convenient and harmless to leave your child in the car for a 10 minute errand.
Also, I agree on the guidelines. It’s one thing to be silent automatons that don’t move, it’s another to not be an asshole. Kids can be assholes. Sometimes parents don’t care if their kids are assholes. And then they grow up to be assholes unless life gives them a lesson their parents refused to give.
Also, I bet the 12′ thing was a typo and they meant 12″, because that makes sense.
Signs like this could really go either way in terms of interpretation. If we’re really looking that hard for excuses to find fault, then things must not be that bad.
I agree with Warren. Kids are only going to be at the bus stop 10 minutes or so in the morning if the bus isn’t late. That’s not going to cause too much of a noise problem. One of my favorite memories of elementary school is playing shadow tag at the bus stop, and we did play in the (quiet, dead end) street. And if we had been 12 feet from the road, we would practically have been on someone’s front porch.
Never mind about the 12′ thing. I reread the sign. It’s not a typo. 4-5 giant steps puts you in the middle of someone’s front lawn. That being said, this post gets a “meh” from me.
We don’t have bus stops since the bus service was cut but we did teach good pedestrian manners (don’t play in traffic!)
But keeping them quiet and unmoving before they have to be confined in school for 7 hours? My kids are pretty quiet going to school but in the afternoon they’re full of School’s out energy and chatty with their friends. It’s called socializing and it’s a good thing, last time I checked.
Natalie, I think (hope) QuicoT was referring to the “tips” at the bottom of the article that says in big, all caps, bold print NEVER LEAVE A CHILD IN A HOT CAR NOT EVEN FOR A MINUTE and the next tip to call 911 if you see a kid in a hot car without differentiating the 12 year old sitting in a car playing with a phone and an infant strapped in a car seat.
You’re supposed to stay 12 feet from the curb AND respect people’s private property. That’s hard here in Europe where our cities are build around cyclists and pedestrian traffic. I can’t imagine how much harder it is in America where cities are designed only with cars in mind.
Again, 12 feet from the curb AND respect people’s private property? How are the kids supposed to manage that?
“School’s out energy and chatty with their friends. It’s called socializing and it’s a good thing, last time I checked.”
Our school bus company had a rule – “Your seat on the bus seat, your back on the seat back”….which meant no turning around to talk to your friend sitting behind you, or leaning forward to talk to the guy in front. My ADD son, so excited to be out of school for the day, just could not manage this, no matter how many discussions and reminders he had.
Now, he was not getting out of his seat, he wasn’t hitting anyone, or grabbing and throwing anyone’s belongings (all things that routinely happened on his K-12 bus). He was talking to his friends, which got him several three-day suspensions, until I started driving him. (We lived in a rural subdivision and walking/biking was just not a possibility.)
I get safety, I do. But if seat-seat-back-back is so important that you’re kicking kids off the bus, why aren’t there seatbelts?
@Beth: Three-day suspensions – from the bus I presume? Or were they actually denying him three days education because he couldn’t mentally glue himself to a bus seat after a long day of sitting still and staring at some teacher?
@Ben: But would the 12′ rule still be necessary in a city build around (or adjusted to, for the old city centers) cyclists and pedestrians? 🙂
Re: noisy kids: I agree that people living near schools shouldn’t complain about kids making noise while playing outside, but in a neighborhood street at 7:00 or even earlier? Not sure if it’s reasonable to expect people to be okay with that or move elsewhere.
@Papilio, it was three-day suspensions off the bus, not school (whew!).
I am just wondering if the school district pays people to enforce these rules. When our kids had a bus, the stop was by an empty lot. The kids would run around and climb all over the place. The bus stop was about four blocks from my house and when I had littler kids (2nd grade, kindergarten), I would walk with them and wait with them. There were probably about twenty kids at that stop and I was always the only parent there. I wasn’t about to go about shouting at the kids to be quiet and stop climbing on the brick wall. If I saw someone doing something really, truly dangerous or mean, I might have called them up on it, but mostly, I just stood there. I was more nervous that one of my boys would decide to wander off too far and not see the bus when it came and get left behind. The year after that, I let them walk alone and I have no idea what they did at the bus stop.
If I had a bus picking up kids by my house, I’d expect some noise from the kids. If what they were doing bothered me, I’d be out there telling them so. Ten minutes really isn’t that long of a time to complain about the noise. If it is, then I guess I’d have to complain to my HOA about the fact that every single time I put my baby down for a nap is when the landscapers come to mow the grass or use the leafblowers right by my house. Or take up with the city how the trash truck ALWAYS comes during naptime too and it’s really loud as well.
I do think kids need to be taught to be courteous, but laying out rules like that from the school when there isn’t anyone from the school to enforce them is just stupid.
Noise – not an issue, in my opinion. We have lots of kids walking past our house making all sorts of racket in the morning and afternoon, and it’s lovely to hear.
I am with the ‘no-running-around’ rule, though (not that anyone is there to enforce it, of course!). That seems like common sense on a narrow footpath crowded with kids. Though, if they really have 12′ of space to wait in, maybe it’s not so narrow 🙂
I am so tired of hearing people complain about children making noise. The problem seems to be that such people have dead souls and can’t stand the sound and sight of life around them.
Actually, though, the quiet comment isn’t the biggest problem – it’s the whole thing, premised as it is on the idea that 1-children going to school have to be told to stay away from cars and 2-parents are incapable of thinking that, if their children do need to be told this, they should tell them. Instead, we need these experts from the school district, whose entire life experience consists of time spent in classrooms, to tell us that playing in streets is bad. We give children so little credit.
“For all of you agreeing with the be quiet, and no playing…………..stop being cranky old person. For crying out loud, if the sound of children bothers you, then move to an adult community. ”
Expectations should be reasonable on both sides. People should not expect everything to be completely quiet if they do not live in an adult community, or next to a cemetery.
And it is also a reasonable expectation that children can be taught to restrict their noise level to normal talk and play, rather than shrieking and screaming, outside of people’s homes, early in the morning. Kids WILL shriek and scream, sooner or later, unless instructed not to.
If “quiet” is meant literally, that’s unreasonable. If it means “not excessively noisy early in the morning near people’s homes out of respect for other people in the community,” it’s reasonable.
So when DO they get to shriek and scream? It’s not allowed at school anymore. And if it isn’t allowed at the bus stop, or anywhere that it could interrupt neighbors (that counts playgrounds out)…
I always considered shrieking and screaming to be “outdoor voices” – perfectly fine to do outside. It IS part of normal outside play.
ROTHFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So many free rangers are like enviromentalists. Yes let the kids play……………..yes build wind energy, just don’t do it close to my house, where I may have to hear it, or see it.
@pentamom
Big freaking deal if they get loud………..for the next 6 to 8 hours they are not going to be permitted to be loud.
Oh yes let the kids play, just not loudly, or between 9pm and 9am, so the cranky old farts won’t complain.
Bet most of you scream at the kids for stepping on your lawn as well. Remember when you are yelling at them to be quiet, not to wag your cane at them, as it may be mistaken for a gun.
Thank you Amanda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don’t know how it works in the states, but where I am, the kids would have to be breaking the excessive noise levels, before anyone can actually do anything. Don’t forget that you would actually have to measure the noise level.
Have had people in neighborhoods complain about the girls and her friends playing loud. Just tell the old farts to close their windows, and turn up the TV.
Those are the people we used to make fun of as kids, and would be loud just to get them worked up. Never failed.
“So when DO they get to shriek and scream?”
Why exactly are kids entitled to “shriek and scream” through the neighborhood any time? When my kid devolves into “shrieking and screaming,” I generally tell her to bring the volume down a little myself. Nor was our neighborhood gang allowed to “shriek and scream” through the neighborhood in the 70s despite our extremely free range upbringing. We could “shriek and scream” on the playground or in the woods. We could not “shriek and scream” around the houses. That is just a matter of teaching your kids to respect others and that the world doesn’t revolve around them and not a free range principle at all.
You are right Donna, it isn’t a matter of Free Range, it comes down to whether or not you have a stick up your ass or not.
Kids are not outside 24 hrs a day. They do not scream and shriek the entire time they are outside. So take your uptight values, and whisper in a library voice.
Yes people have the right to peace and quiet. As property owners and taxpayers they have that right. Then again, as a property owner I have the right to make noise and have fun, and who the hell are they or you to try and tell me otherwise.
And as a lawyer, you know that noise laws and disturbing peace charges are not the easy charges to lay, that fiction shows.
I don’t bitch about the bagpiper practising, the weekend parties, or any other noise making event or happening, and I expect the same from my neighbors.
If they do complain about how loud the kids are, when they are outside playing……….well sucks to be them. Politely told to close their windows, turn the tv up,and also shut up.
There’s a difference between “outdoor voices” and “shrieking and screaming.” “Outdoor voices” are just the noise that comes up in the course of normal play, like “Tag, you’re it!”; “Marco!” “Polo!”; and “Red Rover, Red Rover, we call Sarah over!” It’s the staccato of skipping ropes and basketballs on the pavement, and the hum of skateboards and Rollerblades, sometimes punctuated with a little clack every few seconds, if a child is skating over cracks in the sidewalk. It’s giggling kids running through sprinklers, or singing jump-rope or hand-clapping rhymes–anyone else remember “Miss Mary Had a Steamboat” or “Stella Ella Ola?” Anyway, all of those things, and similar things in that vein, are normal childhood noise. Nobody in any of these situations is trying to be annoying.
However, kids screaming bloody murder (outside of a legitimate injury), or shouting obscene words just for effect, yelling hateful things about someone else, or older teenagers blasting filthy music on car stereo speakers, cross the line from “normal noise” into “noise pollution.” There are some grey areas, and situational issues as well–for example, playing basketball is in the “okay noise” category, right? Well, that’s assuming daytime play–after a certain time of night, or before a certain time in the morning (depending on noise ordinances in the area) is not okay. That still won’t please everyone, though, because there’ll always be the person who works the night shift and sleeps during the day, or the parent of young children who go to bed early, or the person who was paralyzed in a freak basketball-playing accident, and is offended by the sound of people playing basketball at ANY time. In these cases (except possibly the last one), the solution is compromise, which can’t happen without communication……which can’t happen without community…….which can’t happen if people are hunkered down in their individual McMansions, forbidding their children from going out into the world and interacting with “strangers,” formerly known as “neighbours.” So, I guess what I’m trying to say is, even though it may look like the Free Range movement is just about kids, it’s really about everyone, and it can solve a lot of seemingly unrelated problems, if people let down their guard, and allow themselves to be Free Range.
On another topic, this is one seriously sad article:
http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/a-long-talk-in-the-woods/2129790
If I had to stand 12 feet away from the curb, I would have missed my bus. Actually, I still have dreams where I miss my bus to school. I think the bus would come to an actual stop, but not for long. Not long enough to sprint from 12 feet away.
I don’t think you guys have considered the positive side of this sign–and I am absolutely not joking here. The implicit message of this sign is “We assume that this bus stop will be entirely manned by children, without their parents hovering by until the bus picks up their kids.”
Our local library has a sign in the children’s section that says children under 10 should never be there without their parents. If they replaced that sign with a list of rules and manners for kids, even silly rules, I would dance a jig. (But not in the library itself, because that’s rude.)
I’m with Amanda and Warren. But heck, I even see this attitude from parents of young children – constantly quieting the children, worrying what the neighbors will think. When did we decide to construct a world without children?
Warren, there is a wide path between “library voices” and “shreiking and screaming.” Normal laughing, play and goofing off is fine. Screaming like a banshee is unacceptable regardless of your age. Being under 18 doesn’t make it delightful.
And, frankly, the fact that you consider any level of noise under arrested for disturbing the peace as being a considerate neighbor tells me all I need to know about you. But it is also not remotely surprising based on all your other posts.
But now I am 100% convinced that ALL schools should send out this letter – at least the quiet part. It is abundantly clear that some kids are not being taught respect for others at home and need to hear it somewhere. Believe it or not the rest of the world doesn’t find every noise screeched at ear piercing levels outside their house by your little cherub just oh so adorable.
For many years, I told my kids to use indoor/outdoor voices. Kids laughing and squealing outside is music to my ears over the daily noise polution of trash trucks, lawnmowers, and construction. When the windows are open and I can hear my kids coming up the street with their friends, singing bad pop like “Call Me Maybe”, I personally crack up. If they have to be quiet at the bus stop, in the outdoors, when can they talk with their friends?
And why are so many parents at bus stops??
Free range does not equal being an entitled little jerk. Or tiny little asshole. (who had the TLA abbreviation? I’m adding it to my lexicon) We all live in this world together. The needs of one do not trump others’. Kids need their space, so do adults. Learning to respect others is part of growing up to be a good person.
“So when DO they get to shriek and scream?”
On the playground, at the park, in their own backyards after 9 a.m….times and places where there’s little chance of annoying others who have a reasonable expectation of reasonable sound levels when and where they are.
” And if it isn’t allowed at the bus stop, or anywhere that it could interrupt neighbors (that counts playgrounds out)… ”
If you live next to a playground, you do not have a reasonable expectation of quiet at all hours. If you live in a quiet neighborhood, you have a reasonable expectation of not hearing recreational shrieking and screaming at 7 a.m.
@Kenny
I also don’t see anything wrong with this sign, except for the 12 feet which makes no sense. My guess is that some kids were being unreasonable and there were complaints to the school. We don’t know the circumstances of the sign. I don’t take it as a symptom of uber safety or over discipline. The sign is perfectly reasonable, as you say, in expecting kids to know how to behave at a bus stop without supervision. It’s good practice for independent public transportation use.
“That is just a matter of teaching your kids to respect others and that the world doesn’t revolve around them and not a free range principle at all.’
Right. This is not about whether other people complain, or should complain, or have a reasonable basis to complain.
It’s about teaching kids to be considerate of others even if it (gasp) means they don’t get to do everything they want at every second. Kids need to be taught to be considerate (and I mean reasonably considerate, not “walking on eggshells” or “uptight” or whatever vulgar phrase Warren wants to use) of the fact that other people live in their world. That doesn’t mean there aren’t times and places where they can let loose, it means that not every time and place is suitable for letting loose in every way. Learning that is part of learning to be an adult.
@emily
Well said.
One does not have to be old and cranky to be annoyed by shriek and scream. One can be annoyed cause they woke him up after late night work. Or because he is sick or tended to a baby whole night or whatever. There is reason to be rude to those people.
School kids are big enough to start learning to be a bit considerate to others.
If the school would expect them to stand without talking, that would be unreasonable. But, if the school only expect them not to make loud noises, that is perfectly reasonable.
Also, I believe that kids taught to behave well and control themselves are better off then kids that think they can make any noise wherever and whenever.
It is simply because you can take well behaved kids to more places without worrying that they will act inappropriate. You can also leave them out of your sight without worrying that they will do what they are not supposed to.
Places and times when people might be still sleeping are one of those places and school age sounds like age they might be able to accept that.
And to those who want the children from the Sound of Music, standing at the bus stop, I hope those sticks don’t hurt too much.
Kids shriek and scream during the course of active outdoor play. It is normal. Big difference between during play, and just doing it to make noise.
God how do most of you survive life, with your narrow minds, and inability to distinquish differences?
@pentamom
Teaching kids to be considerate is one thing, but suppressing them is another. They are not second class citizens behind adults. They do not need to stop having fun, or playing because some uptight old bitty complains. Not every situtation is a learning to be an adult situation, and the ten or so minutes with their friends, proceeding the 6 to 8 hours of restriction, quiet, confines of school is not one of those learning times.
Just like adults, before work. We always arrived early, had coffee, have a smoke or two (when i did) catch up with our friends and then start the day. On our time, not the companies time. Kids don’t smoke and drink coffee, they play, and they are doing it on their time. Seems like they don’t need the lesson after all.
Our old neighborhood was loud with dozens of kids. And as long as no one was swearing or being racists, no adults cared. From street hockey, to hide and seek, to red rover, to water balloon fights, the only thing we stopped for was cars.
@Andy
Poor baby…….by your rules, and todays enviroment, then kids could never make noise. You go into most areas and you can find someone sleeping, because they worked the day shift, afternoon or midnight shift. Cops, nurses, factory workers, tire techs, and so on.
Andy, I have worked hours that would make most people cry. I have dragged my ass into bed at 10 am in the summer, to only be woken by kids at 10:10 am. I have had it happen at 6am, 7,8,9 all hours of the day. Guess what, I am not egotistical enough to think that others have to worry about my sleep. It is not the kids fault or concern that I work the hours I do. That is my choice. So grow up, and live with it.
Talk about entitled. sheesh
“Teaching kids to be considerate is one thing, but suppressing them is another. They are not second class citizens behind adults.”
Adults shouldn’t scream at bus stops at 7 in the morning, either. This has nothing to do with kids vs. adults, this is humans acting considerately vs. not.
“They do not need to stop having fun, or playing because some uptight old bitty complains. ”
You didn’t read a word I said except the ones that confirm your incorrect belief that I want kids to sit down and shut up, did you? I specifically said that kids should be able to talk and play normally, just not make *excessive* noise. Kids can “have fun and play” quite a bit without screaming loudly enough to wake the neighbors. They can even “make noise,” just not ridiculous amounts of it. Talk about inability to distinguish differences.
“proceeding the 6 to 8 hours of restriction, ”
There’s no reason there should be 6 to 8 hours of restriction at school — there should be recess. That there is not, is the problem, not that we ask kids to be something-less-than-screaming-maniacs near people’s houses at 7 in the morning.
What’s next? A blindfold and muzzle for each child?
My son is awake, even during the summer and on weekends, around 7 a.m. I do not let him go outside and play basketball at 7 a.m. because if the next door neighbor on that side of our house were still asleep (a reasonable thing to be, at 7 a.m.), the bouncing of the ball on the driveway and off the backboard would likely awaken her. Likewise, if my dogs are awake and go out early and then begin to bark at something, I immediately bring them in. That seems like simple manners. It is impossible to know what the meaning behind the bus stop handout was – and thus whether it was a squelching of free-range-ness or simply an appeal for manners. But in terms of the discussion this has become, put me on the side of those who think it’s generally not OK (assuming one has neighbors) to mow lawns or make excessive noise between about 9 a.m. and 9 p.m. That’s just good common courtesy and part of living in a community of people.
Aside from the 12′ thing, which is absurd, this sounds a lot like the bus stop rules when I grew up, where we had ~15-20 kids waiting at one neighborhood streetcorner. The sign doesn’t say, “talk only in whispers.” It says, “Loud noises disturb others.” “No playing” is probably a bit too far, but the bus stop really isn’t a place for high-energy playground games.
Free-range means trusting your kids to behave appropriately for a situation. It doesn’t mean letting them run wild in any and all situations.
The only way I can think of to remain 12′ from the edge of the roadway and also stay off private property is to go vertical. I wonder if the school envisioned children climbing up a tree of a lamp post? Perhaps an elevated bus shelter for the children should be built?
@pentamom
I did read your post.
“On the playground, at the park, in their own backyards after 9 a.m….times and places where there’s little chance of annoying others who have a reasonable expectation of reasonable sound levels when and where they are.”
The typical rant of the cranky old woman on the block.
In their own backyard? After 9am? Those 2 statements right there tells me it is not stick, but a 2X4 stuck in you.
I suggest you move to a convent or seniors home.
The 12-feet is what gets to me. I’ve seen the kids waiting for our school bus and they did get dangerously out of control. Running into the street. They were just being kids but it wasn’t safe b/c our street is busy and they weren’t being careful. So I could see someone coming up with rules like this to curb the wild behavior, not to stop all kid behavior altogether. Quiet isn’t a big issue where our bus stop is, but since my son has a very hard time modulating his voice at any time, reminding him to be quiet is never a bad thing. You end up in the middle w/ him.
By “own backyard” I meant the backyards of the kids who are playing, not necessarily each kid’s own backyard. As opposed to, say, the front yard of the people who live by the bus stop.
Yeah, wow, asking kids not to act like little solipsists who are the center of the universe and the only people who matter, and not to scream unnecessarily before 9 a.m. is soooooooooo unreasonable and restrictive. It’s JUST LIKE wanting complete silence and no fun at all and no kids in the neighborhood. Apparently Warren’s idea of neighborliness is telling people to just stuff it when his kids disturb them in their own front yards, as long as they do the same to him.
It would be really strange for me to live in a retirement community or convent — what would my kids, who like to play actively and noisily at all *reasonable* hours with their friends from the neighborhood, do then?
“but since my son has a very hard time modulating his voice at any time, reminding him to be quiet is never a bad thing. You end up in the middle w/ him.”
Exactly. It’s not that anyone’s out there with a decibel meter hushing kids constantly, it’s that it never hurts to teach kids consideration for others. If they violate it, that’s normal, that’s just being kids, and reasonable neighbors won’t get excessively worked up. But the *thing you teach them* is to remember that there other people in the world. not that other people should just be told to go live in a cave if they don’t want to hear self-centered kids who have never been taught that other people matter, acting like banshees.
Buses come pretty early in the morning. I’m guessing they don’t want the kids bothering the neighbors.
FYI…The kids from the sound of music weren’t well behaved, that’s why they needed a new nanny. The nannies kept leaving.
Also, it’s certainly not pentamom who sounds old and cranky.
Cranky- ill tempered, irritable
And it’s certainly not Andy that sounds entitled.
Entitled- an attitude, demeanor, or air of rudeness, ingraciousness, or combativeness, especially when making excessive demands for service.
@pentamom
It goes both ways. If you expect kids to be quiet, in their own backyards as to not bother you. Then it is you being self centered and thinking the world revolves around you.
It also goes both ways. I do not complain when my neighbor is practicing his bagpipes in his yard. I do not complain when my neighbors kids are screaming and yelling as they play. Or when they have some event that goes into the we ours of the morning. Yes there is distance in the country but sound also carries.
It is called respect for others and not being a stuck up priss, that wants to govern things. Let people be. Because as perfect as you and Donna may think you are, I am sure there are people you piss off on a regular basis.
Just like when the couple called the cops to complain about the street hockey always being played. Cop told them to basically shut up or move to a country that doesn’t play hockey.
Don’t like loud kids, move………………or close your windows and turn up the music.
Not cranky or entitled Natalie. Just tired of all these phony wannabees.
They want free range as long as they don’t have to see it, hear it or watch it.
As long as it is on their terms, their rules.
Like I said just like the people that claim to be hardcore enviromentalists, that complain if they have to look at the wind turbines, or solar panels.
Two faced hypocrites all of them.
Apparently, there’s no end to the idiocy.
As far as I’m concerned these rules are about respect. Unfortunately I’ve seen way to make children who seem to have none. It’s probably also push back to the many parents, I’ve seen let their kids to literally anything and then defend their kids against those who have been wronged.
It’s not anti free range at all to tell kids they need to respect other people’s property and the wishes of the property owner. In fact my experience is it’s the helicopter parents who let their kids throw trash everywhere and not pick it up and scream at the top of their lungs at 8am in the morning and then will turn around and yell at someone for saying something to their kid such as don’t throw your trash on my lawn.
I’ve watched kids trash 2 different religious buildings just running around with food and throwing it all over the carpets. When I was a kid we did run around, however he knew and respected that we were not to bring food into the carpeted areas at all. These kids have no respect for anyone or anything and neither do the parents. In fact their attitude is it’s someone else’s job to pick up the trash and clean up the ridiculously unneeded mess.
@ Dee, Exactly. They aren’t saying they want the kids to be silent, they are basically saying that to find some middle ground between the kids talking and the kids screaming at the top of their lungs. It’s a good skill to teach your son, there are many situations in life where one needs to make their voice quieter or louder depending on the situation.
@Andy I agree. It’s about teaching kids proper behavior. Part of being free range is giving kids skills they can handle at a particular age and not babying them. Such as not telling them that at grade school age they are incapable of following a few basic rules about respect.
Kids who aren’t taught this will become arrogant adults who will argue with everyone who disagrees with them. When they enter the world as young adults they will end up either in conflicts with roommates and neighbors because of their disrespectful behavior or having to spend more and losing the experience of being in close approximation to others.
>>@pentamom I did read your post. “On the playground, at the park, in their own backyards after 9 a.m….times and places where there’s little chance of annoying others who have a reasonable expectation of reasonable sound levels when and where they are.” The typical rant of the cranky old woman on the block. In their own backyard? After 9am? Those 2 statements right there tells me it is not stick, but a 2X4 stuck in you. I suggest you move to a convent or seniors home.<<
Actually, Warren, I think Pentamom was being reasonable. Most cities have noise ordinances, and most "communal living" type places (apartment buildings, university residences, etc.), have "quiet hours," so that people can sleep, study, etc. Also, in university, quiet hours are often extended during exam time.
In fact, when I was in Australia, living in the International House community, iHouse proper had a full noise ban during final exams, although the postgrad house where I lived didn't, because it was just a house of nine people, staffed with just one mentor, which, for part of the time I was there, was me, and I play the clarinet, but only ever during reasonable daytime hours. Anyway, the "noise ban" meant no excessive noise at any time of day, but the definition of "excessive noise" varied–one of the student leaders thought it extended to the music room, others thought it just meant no playing the drums in the music room, and one person actually shushed me at one point for LAUGHING during noise ban, when we were outside. At that point, I asked for clarification, and was told that of course laughing was okay.
I think that iHouse's level of "quiet" is unreasonable, and difficult for even an adult to conform to (especially since final exam time lasted for something like three weeks), but I think Bishop's University, where I went for undergrad, got it about right–quiet hours were from 11 p.m. to 9 a.m. weekdays, then 1-9 a.m. on weekends, and during exams, it started as 9 p.m. to 11 a.m., and was changed to 7 p.m. to 11 a.m. I thought even that was excessive, because it allowed for only eight hours of "normal noise" time, but since our university was a bit of a "party school," the person in charge of the residence explained that it was easier to put the kibosh on pre-drinking parties at 7 p.m. than at 9, at which point they'd be well underway. Oh, and for those who needed more quiet than those hours allowed, there was a 24-hour quiet residence, but there were certainly no rules against laughing, and the music building was open pretty much 24/7.
Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I agree with Pentamom and the other posters who say that there are times and places for noise, and times and places for quiet, and school age is a perfectly fine time to teach kids the difference.
Yes Emily, in their backyard and no earlier than 9am. As stated by the noise nazi.
And no offense but your campus example is meaningless. It is communal living, big difference.
Your noise ordinance laws, are routinely tossed from court. Why? Because cops are not equipped with the equipment to measure the actual noise level. Been there done that in my teens.
What I am saying is that all these people are hypocrites and posers. They want to have free range but on their terms and conditions.
And compared to the fun we had as kids, restricting them to backyards and after 9 am is crap. If a person on my street were to tell me this is what is accetable, they would be not so politely told to piss off.
My kids have always been well mannered and polite. But kids can get loud when playing, If you cannot accept that then you are all stuck up morons. That should not be parents. And yes I am judging, because you are all just so freaking full of it.
This is one of those moments I miss Lenore’s voice in the discussion…
Free Range and Ferral are not the same thing.
@Warren–My examples aren’t “meaningless,” because a neighbourhood is something of a “communal living” situation too. Sure, the entire neighbourhood might not eat meals together, like people living at International House do, or gather together for community-wide activities on a regular basis, as is standard practice in most university residences, but there’s still some need to be considerate of others. Also, I never said that kids should be restricted to making noise in their backyards AND only after 9 a.m.; I meant that 9 a.m. is a good morning cut-off for noise in general, and maybe 10 p.m. is a good evening cut-off, with more leeway on weekends and holidays. During “normal noise” hours (whatever they may be, as per the city’s rules), kids should be free to play in the neighbourhood, as long as they’re not making noise just to be obnoxious.
Sorry Emily, but comparing the streets of a neighborhood to a dorm, is no where near the same. As the college sets the rules, and you are living in close quarters with many others, and it is indoors.
No, you didn’t say it, penatmom said the backyards.
I will repeat, if you cannot take the screaming and the yelling that creeps into active outdoor play…………then move to an island, adult community, or cemetary. During the course of outdoor play kids are going to get loud from time to time. Not only is it natural, it is their right as well.
The consideration most people expect in this part of Ontario, is mind your own damn business.
If my kids are up and about and want to go out and play at 7am, then they will. They are good kids, but chances are they and their friends will get loud before 9am. Not one parent on the street would ever think of complaining. Instead we are all thankfull our kids have the opportunity to go out and play.
I would like to know why other people’s schedules, and wants are more important than your own kids.
Seems like far too many times posters in here put other’s ahead of their own kids. More worried about how they appear than anything.
“It goes both ways. If you expect kids to be quiet, in their own backyards as to not bother you. Then it is you being self centered and thinking the world revolves around you.”
This is why I say you’re not reading. I didn’t say anything about expecting kids to do anything not to bother ME. I was talking about teaching MY kids not to exceed a certain reasonable standard of noise at certain times so as not to bother OTHER PEOPLE, because that is an important thing to learn about living in the real world with other people.
This is not about what I like or am willing to put up with, it is about what I think is proper to teach children about consideration toward others.
“I would like to know why other people’s schedules, and wants are more important than your own kids. ”
Because my kids can have a perfectly good, enjoyable, fun, recreational, time without screaming like banshees at 7 in the morning. And because it’s important *for their sakes* to learn to be human beings who care about the needs of other human beings.
It’s not like the choice is between “make as much noise as you want, any time you want, anywhere you want, without ANY consideration for how it will affect others around you” or “have no fun at all and have a stunted childhood.” That’s an absolutely absurd dichotomy.
Backyards was an example. I was not claiming that kids could ONLY make noise in their own backyards. I meant it as opposed to the back or front yards of other people who do not wish to be disturbed. There are plenty of other appropriate places for kids to get loud — empty lots, open areas, parks, playgrounds — that aren’t the specific property of people who wish to be left alone.
Do you really think there’s something wrong with telling kids that they can’t play in the yards of other people who haven’t invited them, whose kids they aren’t playing with, and make as much noise as they want, any time they want?
Tell you what pentamom, you live your life worried about the opinions of other’s, and put them before your kids.
Personally I put my kids before strangers, or neighbors.
I agree stay off people’s property, if they do not want you on it.
As for the noise of play which will from time to time include screaming, yelling and whaling, I really don’t give a rat’s ass if someone doesn’t like it. Because their will always be that one person who will complain.
If you don’t like it,sucks to be you. I will defend my kids or any kids right to make noise while playing, before I even think about your right to peace and quiet.
Basically comes down to the fun of the kids or the bitching of an old lady. Easy choice. Close your windows, and turn up whatever you are listening to. When it comes down to it, the kids playing outside, as long as they stay off your property, there is not a damn thing you can do about it. Except whine.
Yes warren, you are using the terms cranky and entitled to describe other people when in fact it is you behaving this way. All you need to do to fix that is disagree in a civil manner. It is possible to disagree with someone without acting in an antagonistic manner. Most people here manage to do it. You can still get your point across. You’ve got the entirety of the English language at your disposal.
@ Natalie. +1 You go girl! Tell it like it is!
@ Natalie
Natalie, they are just too full of shit. How’s that for the english language.
I am just glad our community does not have stuck up people such as these, in it. We all get along, and respect each other. We do not tap dance around afraid of what someone may say or feel.
Again goes back to “Don’t give a damn what other people think. What do ya think about that?”
Maybe it is the difference in location. Those in the city are stuck up picky shits, and we are alot more relaxed out in the country. Alot friendlier as well.
@ Puzzled, As far as your comment goes it thing it’s stupid when people complain about babies who can’t help it making news on planes and such. However, these are grade school age kids and they are old enough to know better.
@ Those of you who live in Europe-What you need to understand is some American children are complete and total spoiled brats. I’ve been to Europe and never seen any kid act the way some of the kids do here. They will literally scream at the top of their lungs as if they are dying because they didn’t get what they want until their push over parent gives in. They will scream literally just to scream sometimes too. I don’t think by quiet they are saying the normal sounds of children, I think they are referencing to kids screaming bloody murder in the morning.
@Warren
I actually feel bad for you, because my mother-in-law has a similar attitude about life and I see where it has gotten her and it’s not anywhere good. She just does what ever she wants and other people just choose not to be involved in her because they don’t want to deal with her rude and inconsiderate behavior.
To quote from the letter”Yes, there is a lot of good information about bus safety in this document, but the prominent admonition not to play or make noise at the bus stop leaped out at me and made me snort!”
For me it was more like this “Yes, there is a lot of good information about respect and proper behavior in this document, but the “safety” information at the bus stop leaped out at me and made me snort!
Hey guys, I’m the one who sent this in, and for what it’s worth, the kids play on my lawn (and still not 12′ from the road, LOL) every morning, and the bus itself is louder than they are, even playing tag and goofing around out there!
Now, if I didn’t have children myself, I think it would be reasonable for me to ask the kids not to play in my yard and driveway. As others said, that’s just good manners.
“Tell you what pentamom, you live your life worried about the opinions of other’s, and put them before your kids.”
It’s not about their opinions, it’s about my beliefs that people should treat other people with respect and consideration. I actually don’t do this because other people complain — people don’t complain about my kids because they act like normal, active, noisy kids, but not obnoxious, untrained, wild animals.
And I’m not putting them before my kids, I’m putting their legitimate desire for reasonable peace and quiet in their own homes at early hours of the morning and late hours at night, ahead of my kids absolute non-need to scream at the tops of their lungs at all hours and in all places in order to have fun.
If my kids wanted, for no good reason, to rip up other people’s lawns, it would not be putting other people “ahead of” my kids to forbid that. Just like if my kids want, for no good reason, to scream at the top of their lungs early in the morning in someone else’s yard, instead of being moderately noisy in a place where they’re invited, in the process of playing, I instruct them to behave more appropriately. It’s actually for their good.
So you can’t play any of the finger games or hand games at the bus stop because that’s “playing”? Can you play doodlejump on your phone if the sound is off? No Tic-tac-toe? No eye-spy?
Don’t run around, don’t get so distracted that someone’s going to end up in the road without noticing – good idea.
Also, please, by all means get loud in the FRONT yard, on the sidewalk, or in the street and not in the back. See the bedrooms where my kids are napping are in the back. (That being said while I might grumble in my head I’ve never gone and the teens playing in the pool in the yard behind mine to be quiet during the day)
So….if you have kids napping, or decided to sleep in one summer morning, do you call the neighbor mowing his lawn a “complete and total spoiled brat?” (as indicated above)?
Do you call the garbage truck driver an “asshole” (as indicated above)?
What if, heaven forbid, mowing-lawn-guy decides to use a blower to get his clippings off the sidewalk do you go yell at him for “improper behavior” (as indicated above)?
Just what do you say to construction workers who start work on the house they’re building across the street at 7am, in compliance with local ordinance?
I do not see why it’s so horrible for kids to make noise (and I’m NOT talking about screaming and shrieking) but these other noises of daily life are accepted without namecalling?
Actually, Buffy, if my neighbor decided to mow his lawn at 7 in the morning, I’d be pretty damn pissed.
Buffy, I’d say all those people are doing things that need to be done. Although in line with what Uly says, if the neighbor could be mowing his lawn at another time and is doing at 7 for no good reason, then he’s just as wrong as kids mindlessly screaming early in the morning.
When someone can prove to me that kids need to scream at the top of their lungs, even “need” in the sense of “makes it measurably more fun even by kid standards in any meaningful way,” I’ll consider those comparisons worthwhile.
“I do not see why it’s so horrible for kids to make noise (and I’m NOT talking about screaming and shrieking) but these other noises of daily life are accepted without namecalling?”
Was someone here saying that it was?
I believe the “complete and total spoiled brat” was intended not for kids who “make noise,” but for kids who are taught that there is to be no restraint on what they do, regardless of its effect on other nearby people or whether there are good alternatives to doing it as obnoxiously as possible.
@Katie
Did not ask for nor need your sympathy. I have a wonderful life full of family and friends.
@pentamom
You are the obnoxious one, thinking you can lay down all sorts of guidelines as to what is acceptable.
And yes I do mow most of my lawn around 7am. Why? Because it is a helluvalot cooler at that time. Don’t like it? Again really really sucks to be you.
I have never once said that the kids are out of control. I do face reality that active outdoor play can lead to screaming and yelling. It is normal, and healthy.
I can remember an old man yelling at us for being to loud playing street hockey. One of our dad’s saw it, and took the man aside. The old man went white as a ghost, and never bothered us again.
Loud play is not rude, not obnoxious not bad or immoral behaviour. It is play. So get over yourselves.
@pentamom
“When someone can prove to me that kids need to scream at the top of their lungs, even “need” in the sense of “makes it measurably more fun even by kid standards in any meaningful way,” I’ll consider those comparisons worthwhile.”
Well considering that your kids will be looking over the shoulder to see if they are getting too loud. Or your kids are constantly watching how loud they get………..then yes it makes it measurably more fun when they can play without having to worry about the noise they make.
When I was in first grade, my best friend was standing on the curb when the school bus, turning a corner, drove up on the curb and killed my friend. I get the standing 12 feet away part. I get the no horseplay part.
As far as the noise part goes, kids make noise. People need to get over that. Luckily our school doesn’t start until 9:15.
Kids and adults each have our own, unique needs. We expect adults not to scream and play on the sidewalks because it’s not what adults need. It is what kids need. Asking kids not to play is like asking adults not to go to work.
Warren, you have no idea how my kids behave. I assure you that your mental picture is pure fantasy.
“You are the obnoxious one, thinking you can lay down all sorts of guidelines as to what is acceptable.”
Well, thanks for making it abundantly clear that your responses have nothing to do with what I’ve said, anyway. I’ve repeatedly said that I don’t impose this behavior on other people, it’s what I teach MY kids, and the behaviors I think are reasonable FOR MYSELF. My kids do not cower in fear of doing what I’ve taught them not to, any more than yours “look over their shoulders” about everything you’ve tried to teach them about. Unlike you, I don’t go around telling everyone else how to think or act for fear of my vehement disapproval, so your assumption that I’m laying down guidelines as to behavior is completely wrong.
@Warren – what an awful thing that ‘dad’ did to an old man. Very disrespectful, and a poor example of community. Crotchety old people have been with us since time began, and if we can’t give them a bit of leeway, then it’s a sad world we live in.
@Pentamom, you go, girl! When I referred to noise above, I was referring to normal talking and laughter. The kids around us talk and laugh at 7am – if indeed they’re even walking past then, as school starts later- but certainly aren’t screeching and yelling….that would be rude, and not be in the interests of building a caring community.
Have been thinking about the noise thing during the day, and feel that there really is no need for school-aged kids to be making a racket early in the morning. At my mum-in-law’s there are 1200 flats in a roughly 1000′ square. Counting that some have single occupants (the elderly whose families are grown and gone) and others up to seven (no worries about having a room to yourself in SE Asia, LOL!) there are maybe 5000 people living in that small space. After 10pm at night and before the imam starts calling at dawn, there is almost no noise at all. After the call (which rouses most people, regardless of religion) there is a small buzz of ‘waking up’ noise, but nothing loud. The children and teenagers leaving for school at 6.30 am, who walk right past your bedroom window if you’re on the ground floor, don’t talk in much more than a murmur. Not because they are afraid, but because they are brought up to respect others, and to care about those around them.
Rackets can be saved for a respectable hour.
@Christine That sounds as kids in front of your house are not too loud, at least by my definition of loud. So, I would say that they are already following that rule 🙂
Warren, you don’t seem to have understood what anyone is saying. Your arguing with a position that no one is advocating. I don’t even think you’d disagree with anyone here, but you’re so caught up in your own rhetoric that you dont comprehend what anyone is saying.
Also, I don’t know how you can post the things you do without the slightest sense of self-irony. Do you not notice the things you’re saying, and the tone you’re using?
It’s like someone screaming at the top of their lungs “I’M NOT UPSET!”
And here you are calling other people hypocritical, picky, stick up their butts, etc.
I really wanted to mow my lawn this morning about 7:30. Needs to get done, might rain later. But I know that my next-door neighbor works a night shift and is just recently home asleep at that hour (not to mention, I imagine there are others still asleep). So I chose not to. This is not about caring what others think or trying to portray a certain image (I didn’t text her and say “Hey! Am I the best neighbor ever or what?”). It is about being part of a community and showing consideration. The Free-Range movement will gain more traction the more we teach our kids to show consideration – because it is the rude, ill-mannered kids that give all kids a bad name and spawn silly rules and restrictions. I would put consideration for others up there with independence and resilience as core Free-Range values.
@hineata
No it was not a horrible thing to do. Had the man come to one of our parents and talked to them, that would have been fine. Standing a couple of feet away from kids yelling at them, and waving a stick is not. Don’t give a rat’s ass who or what you are, approach kids that way, and you get what you get.
@Natalie
When I want an opinion from you, I will write one out for you to read aloud.
@pentamom
You do so try to tell others.
“On the playground, at the park, in their own backyards after 9 a.m”
Look familiar.
@Dean
In my line of work I crawl into bed many times at that hour, after being up for 20+ hours. I do not expect nor want my neighbors to concern themselves with my schedule. Do what you do when you do it. My choice of career which determines my schedule, is my choice. It would actually bother me to know people were changing their schedule because of mine.
How fortunate, then, that all of us are only associated “virtually” and not in real life! Hopefully your neighbors share your point of view; I know my neighbors share mine. So all is well.
I don’t think you’d be able to understand other people even in that situation. You get so worked up and angry you’re unable to comprehend anything. And what for? What does all that anger do for you? It’s JUST a comment blog. You’re going to disagree with people even if you DO understand what they’re saying. So why get upset about it?
@Natalie
No one in here has the ability to make me upset. The people in here are just names on a screen, and do not mean anything to me whatsoever, including you.
Calling a spade a spade, a moron a moron does not mean one is upset. Just means one is calling it as they see it.
@Dean
You see they don’t complain either when I am plowing my drive at 5 am, even though it makes quite alot of noise. Then again it might have something to do with the fact I also do the kids bus stop, and the two drives of elderly homeowners at the same time. I don’t complain about some of the things they do, because we accept that we are not clones of each other.
You could only hope to have the community we have.
Would you feel right going over to your neighbors and taking a bottle of wine, leaving a note with intent to replace. Last minute dinner guests. Well my neighbors have, and I think it is awesome that they do. Did I happen to mention, the only time doors are ever locked around here is when you leave on vacation.
You think you know what building community is but you really have no idea.
You can certainly say so, but that’s not what it looks like.
So about showing consideration. Why is it the kids that have to show all the consideration? Why can’t the adults show some consideration for the fact that kids NEED to make noise and yell, and that it is quite likely they won’t get another chance to do so for the rest of the day?
@Amanda
Exactly. But is seems like some of those here feel that screaming and yelling is not a part of play, and is unacceptable.
It has to do with so many people these days are so worried about everyone else. They think it makes them Saints because they bend over backward to try and make everyone happy. That is just like security theatre. You can never be completely secure, and you can’t make everyone happy.
I have seen it many times, more so from women. That they will think of others before their own family. They are more concerned with how the public, and their friends view them than they are how they treat their own family.
They will restrict their children in an order to make their neighbors like them. It is all so phony.
If you do not do something, or you change something to appease others, that is not consideration. It is bull.
If you do not expect others to change, avoid or alter things to appease you. That is consideration.
If one is bothered by the noise of everyday life, lawnmowers, kids playing, cars, or whatever, then that person is self centered, petty and not worth worrying about in the first place.
Ah. There. You see? You and Amanda are taking the same position but she isn’t embarrassing herself in the process.
Th(e title of th)is post only protests against the rule that states children should be QUIET. As in, make no sound whatsoever while they’re waiting for that bus.
I think we all agree that’s not a reasonable thing to demand from children, as they’re waiting there for ten minutes every schoolday, for years in a row, with no/little possibility to avoid that.
What this post did not advocate for (Lenore, correct me if I’m wrong), is the opposite. As in, allowing children to make all the noise they want (WANT: like taking turns in who can scream the loudest, which is a lot louder than normal play sounds) while standing in/close to someone’s yard at 7am or earlier.
I think most of us agree that’s not a reasonable thing to demand from neighbors, as they get woken up that early every schoolday, for as long as they live there & that bus stop remains there, with little/no possibility to move (it).
If, as Amanda suggests, there is no other moment in the whole day children get to play and get loud than at 7am near someone else’s home, I think that’s a problem that needs to be solved.
@Natalie
So I have embarassed myself have I? Funny, I have not felt one bit of embarassment.
Identifying hypocrites, morons and narcissists does not embarass me. Like I said I don’t give a rat’s ass about what other people think. And to feel embarassment I would need to value the opinions of others.
You try but continue to fail.
Not valuing the opinions of others, and yet into community?
Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron happening.
Personally I don’t see myself or my kids as the centre of the universe. My kids are not more important than anyone else, and shouldn’t get treated as such. Their desire (should they have one) to run around making a racket at 7am does not trump a neighbour’s desire for peace and quiet. The neighbour’s desire for peace and quiet at the more reasonable hour of 9am does not trump my kids’ desire to run around outside.
Give and take
A community make(s).
Sort-of rhymes, too. 🙂
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
If you didn’t care you wouldn’t continue responding.
And that you have no sense of how your behavior reflects on you just means you have no self awareness. Like reality TV stars that don’t realize that they are the butt of the joke. Some of them know, and don’t care because they get paid/15 min of fame, etc.
@hineata
Sorry I should clarify. People I know and trust, I do value their opinions on subjects and issues. As for peoples personal opinions of me, there is only 5 people who matter. Me, my wife and kids. Other than that, like me, love me, tolerate me, hate me, laugh at me, I really don’t care.
@Natalie
I am very self aware, thank you. I know who, and what I am. And I am very proud, happy and satisfied with it all. I do not need the so called 15 min. of fame. I also do not need you to like, respect or even acknowledge me. Why can people like you not accept the fact that a person can not give a damn about what other people think and still have a wonderful full life, with family and friends.
I’m not saying you need 15 minutes of fame. I’m saying that your behavior and the way you interact with people here is atrocious. And no, i dont think you know how ridiculous you sound. i dont think you’re self aware at all. Otherwise you would notice the irony of your comments and the tone of their delivery.
You can say you don’t give a damn, but then you wouldn’t work so hard to insult people, or get so pissed off yourself. And you wouldn’t keep responding. You’re boxed into a corner because the more you insist (at the top of your lungs and throwing insults) that you don’t care, that you’re not upset, the more you show that yes, you do and yes, you are.
I don’t think you’re a bad guy. I’m not making comments on your family life or community, of which I know nothing about. You just have trouble with disagreement. For whatever reason, you take it personally, and just can’t handle that people think differently than you. Maybe next time you get involved in a disagreement, don’t comment right away. Take a step back, wait half a day, and post later. Your opinion is valuable, as is your experience. But so is everyone else’s. and at the end of the day, it’s JUST a blog. Not worth your stress and anger.
Sorry Natalie, but you really have missed the mark. You are projecting how you believe I should feel into what you read. I am not anything like you.
I am secure in who I am. I am proud of what I do. Do not confuse passion for the world that my kids and future grandkids will be living in, with anger, stress or giving a rat’s ass about what other’s think.
I will always defend someone’s right to have an opinion, no matter how wrong they are.
@Warren–Maybe unlocked doors and borrowing things without asking work for your community, but some communities have different boundaries, and that works for them. There’s a lot of grey area in between neighbours coming into your house and taking a bottle of wine when you’re not home, and neighbours ignoring each other, or getting upset over every lawn mower, weed whacker, or sound of children playing.
Just because your neighbourhood does things one way, doesn’t mean that everyone else is wrong. In most neighbourhoods I’ve lived in, the “default setting” has been that everyone was on polite terms with each other, but real friendship took time. Not everyone was able or willing to invest that time, and that was okay–the people who were close with each other did their own thing, and others did theirs. Even in university residences, where things were closer and friendlier (but also, usually noisier), closed doors were respected, and people who locked their doors when they went out weren’t considered “standoffish”; it was just a personal preference.
I’ve lived in pretty much every kind of university accommodation too–regular room, apartment, and sharehouse. In every configuration, allowances were made for those who wanted more or less interaction, and even allowed people to change their minds mid-stream–so, the shy person could come out and join the group, and be welcomed in, or the outgoing person could hunker down for a little while to finish a paper or study for exams, and everyone understood that too. As a mentor, I certainly encouraged people to interact, but I never forced anyone above their preferred level of gregariousness or generosity. By saying that everyone who has more stringent boundaries than “open-door policy, except when on vacation” is being uptight, well, that’s teetering a little too close to telling others how to live their lives. I know that life outside university is different from life within it, but as far as boundaries and privacy go, I don’t see much difference between, say, a university student holing up in his or her bedroom for a weekend to finish a paper, versus parents holing up inside for a few days with a sick child. Whatever the reason, it’s personal, and it’s valid.
Yes Warren, you like to say so.
@Emily
I appreciate the fact that you want everyone to get along and feel all warm and fuzzy. It’s nice, really it is.
If you cannot see the difference between dorm living and individual houses, and properties, and how different rules are needed, I feel sorry for you.
Getting back to the warm and fuzzy. It is not about ignoring others. It is about accepting others. We accept that we all have things we have to do, and things we like to do. None of us expect or want anyone to alter, reschedule, or change what they are doing because of us. Do as you need, do as you want, it is all cool.
The one couple that didn’t particularly like that, did stay long. They sold, and now we have a great family in there.
That was the couple that complained about street hockey, our corn roasts, our street bbq, mowing at 7am, different mailboxes, dogs, cats, kids, cars, tractors and on. And now they are living in an adult community. Everyone is happy.
@Natalie
I will always defend your right to be stupid and wrong.
Really Warren, all I’m saying is that it will do you a world of good to take a breather before responding to someone you disagree with.
“They will restrict their children in an order to make their neighbors like them”.
How is that a bad thing?
It teaches them to respect others. It teaches them to not be narcasistic. It’s an important part of growing up for children to learn about societal norms. It teaches them the world doesn’t revolve around them.
And unless your living on some self sustainable farm then I bet you actually do need others. That you would also spend so much time posting here also does indicate you do care about other people’s opinions.
I also understand things might be different in the country. Personally, I don’t want to live in the country and like living in cities therefor things like consideration for others is very important.
Really Natalie? Simply put, I am not you. I have my own ways of doing things, and have never had a problem doing so. Your way works for you, my way works for me. You are very egotistical to think you can advice me on how to behave.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Yes we are both human, but the similarities end there. The obvious differences from being different sexes aside, we are two verydifferent people.
You are concerned with other people;s opinions, while I do not.
I honestly do not care if I offend someone, I do not care what their opinion of me is. This does not mean I intentionally try to offend people. But if the way I do things, lead my life or whatever offends someone, it sucks to be them. Grow a thicker skin, or go away, either way is fine.
I put it out there, I am who I am, like me or hate me, I don’t care.
Why does living this way bother you so much?
Ya know, if you guys don’t have to engage him……
Read it and weep: There is even a 10-foot ‘danger zone’ coloring activity poster!
http://www.ncbussafety.org/SchoolBusSafety/SBSWzone.html
(this is the website that produced that poster – you can see it at the very bottom of the poster)
My favorite:
“Tell you (sic) child to stop and look left, right and then left again if they must cross the street. They should do the same thing at driveways and alleys. Exaggerate your head turns and narrate your actions so your child knows you are looking left, right and left.”
net kabuki,
My favorite was the about how drivers in a hurry will pass a stopped bus on the right. That means they are using my front lawn, and ditch as a passing lane.
I sure hope Warren doesn’t have dogs!
There is nothing worse than a neighbor with obnoxious, barking, dogs that stay outside and are loud 24/7. It is serious noise pollution, and totally rude.
If I can live somewhere that bans dogs, I WILL. If I cannot, I will not put up with constant noise of a rude dog owner.I will find a solution.
My last house, I couldn’t even enjoy my backyard because it sounded like the dog pound back there. 7 neighbors, all with obnoxious dogs (some worse than others), it was awful. I never realized how awful this was until I had to deal with it every minute of every day. It was so loud, no matter what room I was in, so there was no escaping it. Loud TV couldn’t drown it out. When I sold the house and moved to a dog free place, it was wonderful.
I really don’t think its asking too much not to be loud 8am-8pm, whether that is dogs, kids, or leaf blowers. I can appreciate work needing done while its cool (in TX or Az), but to do loud stuff regularly? c’mon!
My kids (1,3) are very loud, and we have most of the neighborhood kids in front of my apartment everyday, so it is chaos. But I don’t let them out until 9am, and since they play until 9pm, I think thats just fine. No need to wake people up, there is plenty of play time to be had here.
The playground is 10′ from my bedroom window, but I still am never woken up! Kids are polite when they have ample outdoor time. No need to scream at 6am, when they get hours to do it later on.
During the school year, kids play from 2-9pm, not as good as 9-9, but not too bad either. I never hear them in the mornings, even though I know they are walking/biking/or going to the bus stop. and these kids are LOUD, but even they manage to not wake me up before school.
Manners- its great when people have them.
Yes Stacey I do have three dogs, and all well mannered and only bark when someone comes on the property. Which is their job. Or when intentionally provoked during play.
You would not last in our community then. My neighbors bagpipes would drive you nuts. The kids playing would drive you nuts. The landscaping and snow removal would kill you. The backyard socials would drive you mad. And our street dance would cause you to have a nervous breakdown. Guess it sucks to be you.
Manners by who’s standard? Yours? Don’t think so. I freely accept my buddies bagpipes. He accepts my work schedule, and we all get along wonderfully. As for the kids, they are all well mannered, polite, and helpful. I cannot count the number of times I have been working on a vehicle and the kids all want to help. And when they go home covered in dirt, oil and grease, mom and dad know where they have been. They know they have been fed, and had fun. What more do you want.
By the way Stacey, just an observation. The overall tone of your post makes me think that you believe the world revolves around you. Making you someone we would not want as a neighbor.
@Katie
Societal norms? Who are you to determine what is normal, and what is unacceptable?
@Stacey,
Just for the record, if my dogs irritate you, just what solution are you going to come up with?
Wow, we stiil have people posting on this thread.
Of COURSE there are people who don’t care what others think of them. But you, Warren, are not one of them. I’ve never seen anyone try so hard to project/defend a persona, and you make yourself a fool in the process.
How many times have you posted that you dont’t give a damn, how d’ya like that, yadda, yadda, yadda. Yes, you are trying to convince everyone here that you don’t care. You don’t see the irony? Well, you didn’t before but you do now. A person that doesn’t care stops responding. You keep coming back. You keep responding because your ego gets bruised and you have to defend your ego because you care what everyone thinks of you.
You’ve dedicated numerous posts about your communal life to try and convince everyone here that you’re not a complete ass, after proving to everyone both on this thread and others that you are, indeed, an ass. We don’t know anything about your life, and we don’t care. What matters to these people, on this blog, is how you conduct yourself here. And your behavior is atrocious. And you say you don’t care (over and over and over and…) but then write about how great a guy you are in the “real” world. Who do you think you’re convincing here?
Not even yourself anymore.
I just don’t know why you think all this anger is worth it. Look at the water thread. So predictable. Disagreement in one, two posts, cue the rage. I don’t know, maybe you enjoy it. I’m under the impression that stress and anger, especially from something so inconsequential as a parenting blog, is just not worth it. But maybe you’ve got issues and need to vent your anger here because venting in the “real” world has tangible consequences.
My thought was that since you thrive on what others think you’d calm down a bit when you realized just how much you were embarrassing yourself. And then the blog would be a better place for everyone to discuss their opinions, including you.
So what do you do next? Keep going as is? Ratchet it up a notch just to prove to me that you don’t care (again, not seeing that defeats the purpose), or admit that you can learn a thing or two from people who think differently than you, and have a civil disagreement?
It’s up to you. But really, if you calm down you’ll be less likely to say things like “I’ll defend your right to disagree” after telling someone to shut their yap, shut up, eff off, etc, (no self awareness) or try to convince people that your community is friendlier than other places after yelling and alienating the entirety of the thread participants. Or calling someone cranky or entitled while behaving that way yourself.
No one is fooled.
Wow these are not just rules about common sense or manners, they are extreme and contradictory rules to control children.
You can’t be both 12 feet from the curb and respecting others property. 12 feet from the curb puts you in someones yard in just about every area. Its not real respectful to hang out in someones yard if there is another space to be. A space such as a sidewalk, which would certainly be within that 12 foot space. Those rules re just the first things that tell me whomever created this didn’t use their brain.
Adults wait at bus stops as well. They talk and goof and the more there are the louder they get. They also are well aware of traffic but still stand far closer to the street than 12 freaking feet. Nobody would think it was appropriate for the a city to issue these type of rules for those waiting at city bus stops. Many of those stops are in front of peoples homes as well. I don’t understand why it’s acceptable to issue them to school kids. Stand still and be quiet is quite a ridiculous set of rules or expectations for anybody at any bus stop.
I don’t mind the noise of kids, even really loud noise and shrieking. I live in a neighborhood full of kids, it would be pretty self centered and egotistical of me to think I shouldn’t have to hear them, or only hear them at certain decibels or in certain areas.
My kids have been known to shriek, outside, where shrieking belongs. They shriek in the front yard, the back yard, on their bikes, on the sidewalk, in the trees, at the playground and many more places.
My neighbors do mow their lawns at 7am and have cookouts that last until midnight. They play loud music, and get really really loud during certain sporting events. The kids all play everywhere and are loud more often than quiet. They play basketball in the streets from first light to well after dark on plenty of nights. The kids can also be heard loud and clear, starting from 7am, walking, running and riding bikes to school. They go in groups and they goof and run and play tag and catch and yell back and forth as they go. It’s normal and acceptable social behavior.
We all just pretty much deal with it and accept the fact that occasionally someone else might make noise that we don’t want or like but we are probably doing the same thing at times because nobody can please everybody all the time. If someone asks another to change a noise level and has a reason, then sure it’s polite to consider it and maybe adjust. Frankly, not wanting to hear kids early in the Am is not a reason they should concentrate on being quiet while waiting for a bus. If having children gather and by default, hearing their voices, bothers someone so much that they would complain, they should probably just ask to have the bus stop moved. Not that it’s likely to happen because most schools and bus companies don’t consider your dislike for children’s voices a reason to move a stop.
Honestly adults just need to stop being so grouchy, crotchety, and self centered that they feel they have a right to control the volume of children while outside. Outside is where children are suppose to make noise and run and get squirly. Heck it’s where adults should be doing some of that as well. Maybe if adults spent more time being squirly and loud outside they’d find the benefit of it and stop acting like it’s bad.
Natalie,
What in your limited life experiences makes it so hard to understand.
Embarassed? I honestly cannot remember the last time I was emabarassed by an intentional action. To be embarassed by such, I would have to care what you think of me. To be absolute, Natalie’s opinion of me does not enter into anything I do anywhere. But it is fun watching you try to project your own sense of what I should feel, think or do. Just because something affects you in a certain way, does not mean it affects others in the same way. We are not all wired the same way, and no matter what you try, what you say you will not change that.
As for the anger thing, please do not confuse anger with disgust. And yes, I have been really disgusted with the attitudes and weakness of posters in here. It has become quite apparent over time, that for the most part posters in here are all talk, no conviction and weak.
Well children should be kept from screaming or being a menace. They can still talk though.
I don’t want to sit by a screaming kid at a bus stop,do you?
I had to live by children that would sing as loudly as possible outside as late as one in the morning.
What about the kids I’ve seen screech at the top of their lungs at a grocery store,and wont stop!
Letting kids be crazy is a reason why people don’t like children and a reason why free ranging is disliked.
I’d rather deal with loud dogs they don’t hurt my ears as much.
12 feet doesn’t make sense. I live in a area where there’s no sidewalks,so that would mean going in peoples yards or in forest areas to do that.
I think shrieking is still allowed at schools,parks and playgrounds,which I`m fine with. You can also do it in your own yard and house. Just be considerate of others while at it.
Screaming kids don’t need to be at restaurants and museums,the world doesn’t circulate around your kid.
It not just makes other people unhappy,including some kids,but can lose customers to the business and can cause distress to mentally ill or autistic people.
@Rachel
A typical complainer. Nothing has been mentioned about stores, restaurants or museums. It is about playing outside in the neighborhood.
I thought it was about bus stops and being on the bus,not playing in the neighborhood.
Some bus stops are very crowded and in public areas.
If their running around,screaming and knocking people over I have a issue with it, If their talking a goofing a little bit then I don’t.
Rachel,
You are the one that brought in museums, and restaurants, and now very crowded public areas, and running around knocking people over…………….you are that cranky old witch all the kids know lives in the house with all the cats, aren’t you?
I do not know where your school buses operate, but for the most part a bus holds 44 passengers. So unless at least half of them are all at the one stop, how freaking crowded can it get?