Pithy, Witty & Wise

The other issue with the hand sanitizer is that it “kills 99% of all germs,” thus leaving a fertile breeding ground for the ones that it can’t kill. So when the superbugs start becoming a real problem, can we charge the hand sanitizer users with genocide?

I will not let my kids use hand sanitizer. They have it in every class at school and require the kids to use it before entering the cafeteria. My kids have learned how to make it look like they’re using it without really getting any! My kids chewed on cart handles when they were little, picked up binkies off the ground and put them right back in their mouths, sucked their thumbs after long days out. They have never had strep throat, the flu, an ear infection, they are extremely healthy and have no allergies. My friends who constantly keep their kids environments clean, their kids have more problems than mine.

My kid ate dirt (gravel specifically) and ended up with a severe peanut/sesame allergy. I thought cart handle covers were silly and overcautious and my other kid ended up with cold sores. Talk about the short end of the stick! My own experince aside, I agree that we are spending far too much time looking out for perceived dangers. I’m happy to have found free-range…I used to joke my parenting style was benign neglect. Compared to many parents I was acquainted with, it was true!

Love the handle ‘Think banned thoughts’. Here’s to raising free-range, critically thinking kids.

Actually, it seems to me that the point of all the safety rules imposed on manufacturers, etc. is to relieve parents of the duty to “think of everything that could happen.”

I see nothing wrong with parents thinking of everything that could happen, weighing risks, and deciding which risks are acceptable / worth it.

I let my kids do a lot of stuff that is not “advised” nowadays. But when I do so, it’s not because I didn’t think of the possible issues. That’s my job. I don’t need or want some third party to take that over from me. Like the “rule” (thankfully unenforced) that would have required my 5yo swimmer to wear a life vest at the waterpark because she’s short, undermining our goal to improve her swimming skills. I would rather think of all the things that can happen and consciously choose accordingly.

At the fruit market yesterday, I let my son take small bits of ice chips from by the veggies while I filled my bags. No fewer than 3 people told him – not me, him – not to do it. Each time he said – “But my mother said I could.” The first time I thought people were thinking it was stealing, and I said something (rather defensively) about how they’re not selling the ice. The person responded about how dirty it was (really??). The next two people told my son directly that the ice was “filthy”. I suppose I shouldn’t let him eat the snow that is scheduled to fall later today, either…
Whatever happened to “a pound of dirt a year”?

We have 2 cats, a bird and a dog. Our kid eats plenty of dirt. Mostly in the form of animal hair though 🙂

My kids are the healthiest kids on the block, I guess. We don’t use hand sanitizer. I let them play in dirt, both now and when they were little. They ate sand at the beach, dirt from the garden and the park. I do have them wash their hands before meals, but my youngest thinks that means swiping them under the water and wiping them on the towel that the other two are about to use. We have animals, fur and dander. I let them play in poison ivy full of ticks when they visit Grandma. (If they didn’t, they wouldn’t get to play outside.) They wash well, and get checked for ticks before bed.

But really, my kids tend to get every cold that comes along. So did I as a kid (and still do.) As a kid, both my mother and I almost failed a grade due to being sick too much. My two boys have both had incidents of viral induced asthma. They all seem to get sick about as much as I did. It is not the dirt so much as it is the other people who take their kids out or send them to school when they are sick. We tickle our immune system with a flu shot each year – much better than the scary asthma attacks that only occur in the middle of the night.

And yes, I ALWAYS used those wipes on the cart when we went to the drug store. I figured that the people where there mostly for the same reason I was – to get stuff because they were sick. Now my kids are older I can leave them in the car – when little the cart was used to contain them.

But you probably wouldn’t notice me overall. Except for an askance look from a teacher when I was helping the class. My “crime” was telling my son (who has the most asthma attacks) that he could not blow up the balloon on the “race” car because another girl (sick) had blown it up. Teacher tried to say it was fine, but I really hate being up in the middle of the night with a kid who is panicking because he can’t breath and wondering if I should be going to the ER.

So, good to everyone who thinks the dirt is keeping their kids from getting sick. Me, I know the immune system that is inherited plays a large part too.

@Nanci – I finally sent my kids to school with a note saying that they were not allowed to use hand sanitizer. Partially because I also have a thumb sucker and I do not want that stuff going in her mouth. She’s long had germs/dirt and goodness knows what else. Really, it’s hard to be germaphobic with a thumbsucker, we would have had to remove her thumbs all together to keep her from getting “contaminated”!

@ Lollipoplover – Brilliant idea, we should do it! I mean, even pottery classes are tame now, you just go to a studio and paint perfectly made and formed plates and bowls, kids don’t even get to mush their fingers into the clay themselves. I think this afternoon I’ll make a “Bring Back Dirt” sign for my front yard…

@Mrs. A. As you’ve noted, there’s no perfect way to raise a healthy child. But I love your attitude of “benign neglect”, at least your kids will come out self-sufficient and able to navigate the world.

@Thecoffeegod – Amen!

@TaraK – LOVE IT! Highly inspired!

@Cheryl W. – Yes, you have to accept, and play to, the genetic hand that you are dealt. Some kids are born with a low dirt tolerance. But most (Not all) can build up a resistance over time and can use that to build resistance to other foreign substances as well. As with Mrs. A., There is no perfect, right or wrong way to raise a kid. We are all here just trying to do the best we can with what we have available. The Free-Range way isn’t meant to make anyone feel bad, it’s meant to show us different ways of looking at things, thinking about things and doing things to help us all breathe a little easier, literally and metaphorically.

I let my kid chew on grocery cart handles and his dirty little hands, share toys with the dog, pick things up off the ground and stick them in his mouth, share spoons with me, play with kids that might be sick, and almost anyone that wants to touch him and play with him is allowed to do so.

It’s true, he’s gotten sick a few times in his 14 months on Earth (pneumonia at 6 months and a couple of ear infections, plenty of snotty noses, etc.) but he’s also been able to eat anything we’ve given him, even if it’s been tainted by one of those potential food allergens like seafood and peanut butter. Nothing. Just him wanting more food 🙂

I think a lot of the food allergies are a load of hooey from parents that didn’t bother to let their kids get sick and dirty.

@ Cheryl W: I had to laugh reading your last entry. What is it about the hour of 2am that triggers asthma attacks?? I swear, my kid could have just a cold from 6 am until midnight but then magically, 2am, it’s a freaking ER trip. How do the lungs know what time it is?

Fortunately, my son is actually starting to grow out of the viral induced asthma. We used to be good for at least 2-3 ER visits per year. We got through all of last year with nary a one (he’s 11). So there is hope!

My 15 month old loves to sweep the kitchen floor. Sometimes he licks the dust broom. Lesson in helping out around the house: check. Immuno-booster: check.

My husband is a pediatrician with a strong interest in having our kids eat dirt–he’s an endocrinologist and believes that autoimmune issues can stem from our own systems not getting used to fighting smaller things and then attacking our own bodies. He had given a lecture to the nurses at the hospital about why dirt is good and said that he let our daughter (then 2) eat dirt.

While I was in labor with daughter #2, I had not one but TWO nurses ask me if it was true I let our daughter eat dirt (it is, I’m actually more free range than he is–and he’s much more free range than when we met). I was like “Yes, now can I labor please.”

But it gets better.

6 months later I discover that I was known on the maternity floor as “The Mud Doctor’s Wife.”

And I think the analogy is a good one.

I have to imagine that when people hear, “I let my kid eat dirt”, that they’re picturing a kid in the backyard, stuffing handfuls of potting soil down their throats, not the occasional gumming of a grocery cart handle or lick of a toy shovel or even tasting a mud pie.

Growing up, I always heard, “You have to eat a speck of dirt before you die.”

I’ve read that having cats or dogs decreases chance of allergy — although is that also because allergies have an inherited component and parents with the allergies aren’t going to have cats/dogs?

Just to be anecdotal here, my older niece (my sister’s child) has asthma. Her dad is allergic to cats, and looking back at family history it seems very likely that my mother and I both were asthmatic as children. (Why this was never caught, I don’t know, but I remember missing what added up to weeks of school every year because I couldn’t breathe.)

This summer, she brought a cat into the house. I like cats. Haven’t had any for a while, but I do like them, and it was clear to me that this cat was pregnant. (She wasn’t bulging yet, but a word to the wise: If you can see your cat’s nipples, they’re enlarged and pink? Then she’s probably pregnant, two or three weeks along.)

So, because I’m a soft touch, I fed the cat and her kittens when they came along.

This summer really was miserable, hot and humid. Poor Ana had to go to urgent care at least once for her asthma. But after school started and the kittens came, she’s been FINE. She’s even stopped taking her inhaler most days, and because she’s been fine we haven’t been chasing after her making her do it. NO. PROBLEMS.

This time last year, she was wheezing up a storm. This year? Nothing.

I don’t know if it’s the cat and five kittens, but it seems to me like she got worse right after the cat arrived and then, within two months, improved an insane, unbelievable degree.

I just realized that my first comment wasn’t published…so, if I may go Back to the Future:

Hi there,

I’m Jason Tetro, the “Germ Guy.” I’m an international expert on germs and promote both health and hygiene in the media, on television, scientific articles and books.

I was sent this blog post by a few concerned individuals who are happy about the spirit of the blog but were discontent with the science, especially the 99.9% discussion.

For more on what 99.9% really means, I invite you to check out the real answer in a post I wrote a few years back. (the link is in the previous comment). This was in response to a report I helped develop with The National here in Canada (another link that is in the previous comment).

More recently, a paper has come out that discussed the idea of the need for exposure to germs in order to have a healthy immune system. I’ve written about it on my germguy blog. What is truly interesting is that exposure to germs and environmental factors PRIOR TO BIRTH is probably more important than the exposures that happen after birth. Either way, the idea that mothers and kids should eat dirt (or perhaps visit farms) is a sound one and probably one that we should adhere to more closely.

That being said, I must stress that keeping kids away from pathogens, is a necessity. This is why handwashing, hand sanitizer, proper hygiene and segregation when illness occurs are all important in this context.

If there is a risk for pathogens — high density of people, unsafe food/water sources, presence of others who are sick and not properly covering themselves, healthcare facilities, etc., then precautions should be taken to prevent infection. If not, the potential for direct clinical illness is significant and for children especially, the potential for chronic sequelae later in life. We may not believe that an infection may cause problems years later but the reality is that we continue to see links between what we thought might have been a normal infection but ended up being a catalyst for troubles in adulthood.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

@Renee Anne – I think that saying food allergies are a lot of hooey from parents who didn’t let their kids get dirty/eat dirt is a bit of a broad brush and not particularly helpful for parents visiting this site whose children may well have food allergies. I let my children get dirty, pick things up from the floor and pop them in their mouth, didn’t panic over dropped binkies, etc. And yet, they both (twin boys) had quite the cow milk allergy, as did my brother who likewise grew up in un-pristine environs. Fortunately, both my brother and my sons eventually outgrew the allergy but not every child does. My children, in particular, have G6PD enzyme deficiency (current level – 0), which renders them “allergic” for lack of a better term, to things like fava beans and sulfa drugs. Only, because their levels are so low, the items to which they are “allergic” can cause an acute hematocritic reaction. It doesn’t matter how much gravel I let them eat, this is never going to go away and part of my job as a parent is to teach them how to mange this condition without worrying overmuch about it. Are there over-reactive parents who turn a minor food intolerance into an “allergy”? Absolutely. Are there parents of children with actual food allergies who keep their children in an overly sterile environment? Absolutely. But that is not true of every parent of a child with a food intolerance and it is not true of every parent of a child with a food or other allergy. To claim otherwise is unkind and not particularly respectful of other parents who, like you, are doing their best to raise confident and capable children.

“I let my kid chew on grocery cart handles and his dirty little hands, share toys with the dog, pick things up off the ground and stick them in his mouth, share spoons with me, play with kids that might be sick, and almost anyone that wants to touch him and play with him is allowed to do so. It’s true, he’s gotten sick a few times in his 14 months on Earth (pneumonia at 6 months and a couple of ear infections, plenty of snotty noses, etc.)”

That’s a lot of illness for a 14 month old. (My wife and I have 8 kids and none of them have ever had that much sickness in such a short period of time.) I’m not advocating hand sanitizers, but there is something to be said for good old fashioned hand washing and keeping little ones away from sick people. The fact is that immune systems aren’t fully developed when they are young. It’s good they are playing in the dirt in the backyard, but it may not be so good they are playing with other sick children. Picking things off the floor and putting them in your mouth is probably not quite as big of a deal (assuming we’re not talking gross items or items that fall in public restrooms), but the shopping cart handle thing I find to be a bit gross. Those things are nasty. Most kids don’t have food allergies, so it’s a good chance your little one happens to be in the majority and it has nothing to do with what you allow him to ingest. I’m not trying to say you are making bad choices, but just that in my opinion, there is a middle ground. Nix the hand sanitizers and antibacterial soaps. But keep the hand washing and keeping little ones away from sick people. 🙂

FYI – data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration: Traffic Safety Facts 2009: Children
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811387.pdf

@Kevin, I’d say the pneumonia is unusual, but not unheard of, but a couple of ear infections and a bunch of snotty noses in 14 months isn’t that much. Some families, I’ve noticed, just get sick a lot more than others, and it doesn’t always boil down to over-or-under-cleanliness; I think there are genetic factors, and maybe life circumstances (what diseases adults bring home from work, schooling differences, etc.) that play a role as well.

So I agree, keep the hands clean and so forth, but I would be real careful about judging that someone’s child sounds like they’re getting sick “too much” without knowing more.

Brian:

For the record, we already have a ‘dirt’ pill that is readily available in pretty much any natural food store or drug mart.

We prefer to call them probiotics.

There was a silly movie about the future with Sylvester Stallone… where all fluid exchanges between people were outlawed and all that jazz. We are moving right towards that. And it felt like such a parody when it came out in the early 90s.

It’s all about the marketing Jason, it’s all about the marketing

One question, do second children generally have fewer allergies? It would seem that if dirt prevents some allergies, houses get dirtier with a kid around and the mother is much more apt to be at playgrounds, farms, around kids, etc. after already having 1 child.

I agree, Kevin – middle-of-the-road. My kids are very free-range dirt-eaters, and I have found the more children I have, the more we have illness in the house (I suspect the older ones going to school and preschool bringing bugs home that the littler ones then suffer from more). And my sister’s two boys are very much dirt-eaters, and yet, with no family history of allergies, both have bad eczema, and one has nut allergies. You can can’t win ’em all!

@Cheryl – my eldest (who I would say has been my healthiest) ate poop at the age of about 11 months. At the time, we were living in the US. I only mention that because, as Australians, we don’t seem to encounter quite the same degree of germ-phobia here as we did in the US. So, anyway, I mentioned at my mothers’ group in passing that our puppy had pooped in the the corner and my daughter had found it before I had, and decided to eat it. Me – cue head-shake and laughing as I recound the story. Friend – cue look of horror and exclamations of “OMG, did you take her to the ER?”

Brian:

Most studies focus on the children of mothers – we haven’t really gone past the first generation in that sense.

I would suggest that each generation will be different as epigenetics changes throughout one’s life. But without proper testing over 2 generations, I can’t really tell.

As for more than one child, I can tell you that as the environment changes, so will the effect on the child. So, your idea about increased exposure simply due to being a parent might be correct.

I love that my kids enjoy the dirt so much. I have a great photo of my oldest with mud splashed all over her. She’d aimed the hose with a spray nozzle at a patch of mud, and learned that mud splashes backward too. She also learned that when you’re dirty enough, your parents will laugh, take a picture, and then hose you down to get you clean enough to get into the tub, even when it’s not all that warm out.

I am really happy with my son’s first grade teacher right now, though. First graders are supposed to be picked up by a responsible person, usually a parent or other adult. My son’s teacher is happy to count my oldest daughter (4th grade) as responsible enough to pick him up and have them walk home together. She even told the kids that they had to walk when a friend tried to get them to accept a ride. I wouldn’t have worried about the friend giving them a ride – it was one they’ve gone with before, but I made sure to tell the teacher how much I appreciated her backing me up and making the kids walk.

Marketing people have done a great job scaring people into the belief that all germs must be eradicated. I remember seeing a Lysol commercial about 10 years ago where the mother was protecting her toddler by spraying Lysol all the toddler’s toys. I’ll take my chances with my kid getting germs in her mouth over the chemicals in Lysol any day.

I also wonder how much bacteria has mutated to resist all these anti-bacterial products around today. In about 20 years or so, you’re going to see a giant 50 foot bacteria attacking New York. 🙂

It’s reassuring to read that many moms out there agree with me on dirt (i.e. if it were dangerous the human race would have died out long ago), because the examples I see first-hand in my helicoptery neighborhood are just the opposite.

Examples:
One mom brought me a handful of raisinets my daughter had dropped on the gym floor because my daughter was picking them up and eating them (I smiled and nodded and then let her eat them when helper mom turned away. Raisinets are expensive.)

My daughter was the only one in her playgroup allowed to go barefoot in the park.

When dd was 9 months old I stopped my grocery cart to talk to another woman with a 9-month-old. Hers was in the quilted protective grocery cart seat cover, while mine had the grocery cart handle in her mouth.

Don’t even ask about the comments when I let her touch the interior of a subway car or walk down our urban street barefoot. Yes, I know dogs pee here. Is old, dried-up dog pee toxic???

Of course dd is perfectly healthy–I mean, like, freakishly healthy. It almost makes me feel non-guilty when I forget to have her wash her hands when we get home from errands. Almost.

Catherine said:

Much of what is now encouraged as ‘responsible parenting’ comes with a psychiatric label: ‘generalised anxiety disorder’;’ obsessive compulsive disorder’.

RIGHT ON, SISTER!

Although I’m not one for labels, I have received many: “irresponsible,” “negligent,” and “criminal,” to name a few. And what did I do to earn such derision? I let my 7-year-old walk a mile to school in temperate weather in a pristine, traffic-moderate town with marked crossings, but only after shadowing him at a distance four times to be sure he understood the route and the proper street-crossing protocol.

I pleaded with my ex-husband to recall his own mid-1960s childhood in St. Paul, MN. “Don’t you remember getting yourself to school?” I asked. “Don’t you remember being outside *without* your parents present? Don’t you remember walking to a friend’s house before you were in junior high school?” His answer: “Don’t you know how many cars are stolen off of this island every day?”

Blink. Blink.

Do they all have 7-year-old boys in the back seats?

Because I am more of a lover than a fighter, I expressed my compassion for Dad’s concern about Son’s well-being and safety, and proceeded to explain how allowing the child to walk to school was my way of supporting those values. He made sure I understood that CPS wouldn’t see it the same way, and we agreed that he would let me know when, and if, DAD was ready to allow Son to walk to school. Dad agreed that Son was ready.

I want parents to consider their CHILDREN’S needs, not just their own, when making “safety decisions.” What Dad also said during that conversation was, “I don’t know what I would do if anything ever happened to that kid.”

So that’s a justification to deny him normal, age-appropriate independent activity? Because YOU can’t bear the thought of loss? What about HIS loss, every day, when you deny growth, learning, and joy?

Yes, we might lose our children. Even if we are holding their hand. This is what a spiritual practice is for. To cultivate a sense of acceptance of life and all of its uncertainties.

Can I get an amen?

My grandfather, a farmer, always told us “you have to eat a PECK of dirt before you die”. That is a fourth of a bushel. My mom and her siblings ate food straight from the field when they were working, and we did, too, when we were old enough to be allowed to pick. Plus, our sandbox, back when such things were uncovered and cats roamed freely, was supplied with serving spoons. We frequently “served” each other tasty bites of mud pie. This is only an anecdote. I am not trying to say this proves anything – just a statement of fact as I remember it.

@Jason–What about the idea that when children get cold, flu, etc, they become immune to that particular virus? I know it’s not the same for bacterial illnesses, but I don’t understand why parents try to prevent every little cold. It’s part of growing up to have snotty noses and occasional ear infections.
I think the fact that there is a “germ guy” blog, speaks volumes.

Bmax, maybe the babies don’t NEED anything other than breast milk under 6 months, but some of them WANT to try other things.

I am on a Facebook group of mostly young mothers (it seems) and many of them exclusively breast feed until after 1. I always wonder how they do it – my kids all were reaching to the table and trying to eat the food that everyone else was eating way before one, and all of them were interested in trying earlier than 6 months. They would sit there in their little slanty seats near the table while I was eating. Each time I lifted the fork and put food in my mouth, they would open theirs. It seemed pretty evident what they wanted.

Note: I am not saying the exclusively breast feeding until 1 is bad, one way or the other. It is different from what I did and what I observed with my kids. I am hopeful that they are observant of their own kids. I am certainly not one to judge, my oldest nursed until he was over 3, just, it wasn’t exclusively what he ate during those first 3 years.

@bmax: Perhaps the Guardian is a good enough source?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/jan/14/six-months-breastfeeding-babies-scientists

Nobody is saying to stop breastfeeding. They are saying that it’s not a bad thing to supplement the diet.

As with everything, there is a middle ground. I’m not a germophobe, but I do stick by a basic, simple regimen of hygiene which should ensure that I don’t catch or spread anything particularly nasty.

Remember that most of the bad infections illnesses (and most of illnesses overall) are spread via bodily fluids – mucus, pus, phlegm, saliva, urine, semen, vaginal fluids, feces and blood, blood being far and away the most infectious. To cause an infection, the bodily fluid or bodily fluid residue must enter the host.

The shorter time between the infectious fluid leaving the host and entering the new person, the more diseases are likely to make it through.

Some surfaces preserve pathogens for a lot longer than others – metal and plastic will keep viruses and bacteria alive for a lot longer than fabric or paper.

Use that knowledge to determine what is or is not reasonable hygiene. I’ve always thought that a sensible hygiene regimen includes washing my hands after using the toilet, before eating, after touching my own blood/mucus/saliva etc (i.e. if I’ve wiped my nose on my hand, licked my hand or sneezed on my hand), or after touching something that is particularly unhygienic. Also, bathing once per day unless impractical is important.

Additional hygiene should be observed when preparing food for those not living in the same household.

I feel that all of that is a healthy line to take – hygiene should be observed and considered important, but it’s not necessary to sterilise every surface all the time, wash or sterilise hands between every action, or whatever. Not all illnesses can be avoided, and a lot of them really don’t matter – there are a lot of illnesses like colds that are simply unpleasant, but not life threatening or permanently damaging.

That being said, there are some things that you really SHOULDN’T let your small children put in their mouthes. Public, frequently-touched metal and plastic surfaces are one – simply because it’s very easy for bodily fluids to end up on them, and viruses to live on them until they find a new host. Adult wipes mouth or nose or scratches sore, touches bus pole/shopping cart handle/money and transfers mucus/saliva/blood to the surface. You typically won’t get a disease from touching those surfaces after they dry, because very little of the pathogen will end up in your mouth or bloodstream – not enough for an infection. SUCKING on it, however, is a very different story.

Really, weigh up the cost vs reward.

An infant absolutely does not gain enough developmentally from sucking on the shopping cart handle to outweigh the risk of catching something nasty (or a lot of things that are simply unpleasant). What is the “risk”? Refer to “Mrs. A”‘s post, fifth one from the top. Her kid caught herpes from a shopping cart handle, which I think is really sad (and also really, really unfortunate). You might let your primary-school-aged kid walk to school because you feel that it is important for his freedom, independence, confidence and development. You weigh this reward against the risk of him getting injured or abducted on the way. You determine that the risk is very unlikely and the reward is high, so you let him walk. That is reasonable. I just can’t see ANY real “reward” from allowing an infant/toddler to put highly unhygienic objects in their mouth, or not teaching a child that they should wash their hands before meals and after using the toilet.

Let your toddler chew sticks or eat a bit of mud if you must – these objects might be unsanitary but they’re also not likely to have serious infectious diseases on them – but don’t let them chew the shopping cart handles. Let your kid touch the keyboards at the library and touch the bus and train and whatever without sanitising it first – but make sure they wash their hands before eating. Let your kid play with the dog, get licked, have dog hairs on their bed – but don’t let them allow the dog to lick their food.

Basic hygiene has helped the western world come a long way in defeating the spread of majorly nasty illnesses. It is a very useful and sensible practice when taken in moderation. Remember that.

I have two stepkids. They spend part of their time at their mom’s and part of their time with their dad and I. They are always getting sick at their mom’s – stomach flu’s, colds, ear infections. Last year my SD was sick for a good 6-8 months. Interestingly enough, they rarely get sick at our house. The difference? At mom’s they stay inside all day – they watch TV, play video games, stay up late, etc. Our house is different. We swim, toboggan, ice skate, hike, bike ride, camp, etc. The kids have regular bedtimes and we even have a cat (apparently SS is allergic but we haven’t had a single issue). I do think that having good sleep plays a factor (kids aged 6 & 9 shouldn’t be going to bed at 10pm on school nights IMO), but I also think that sometimes the kids get sick because they are bored (subconciously of course) – they are too busy living life at our house to get sick!

We also have a very different idea of what “sick” is. I don’t think that a sniffly nose means that you should stay home from school, curl up under a blanket on the couch and be catered to. I have a scratchy throat right now myself, but I’m still living life! We are trying really hard to teach the difference between being “sick” and “under the weather”.

Someone commented on how people can breastfeed exclusively up until 1 year old because their kids were showing interest in food much younger. I think that is because you are incorporating your child into your family life. I always planned on having my baby sit up at the table with the rest of us when we are eating to help establish routines and family time early. I notice that many people will feed their kids seperately and not have them at the table. I know that with my SK’s they weren’t encouraged to sit at the table with the family until they were school aged and SD does have some food issues now. I honestly believe that if she had been part of that from the beginning that she would have a much healthier relationship with food.

Off topic….
an acquaintance posted this quote on facebook. I thought it appropriate to the Free Range philosophy. I have not verified the source, and do not know how to go about doing so.

“To believe all men honest would be folly. To believe none so is something worse.” -John Quincy Adams

So, a question to ponder, because yes, I know that for instance Polio became epidemic with advent of better hygiene, but is the prevalence of allergies and such now due to the increased hygiene, or is it because the weak died at a much earlier age in centuries past?

Go compare two graveyards, one from current and one from a century or two ago. There are a lot more babies and young children there in the past. Some would be due to accidents, but some must be illness and I would suggest most.

Something to ponder – do these studies examine child mortality in the past, or just the “issues”? Did these weakened kids not show up with the issues because they were dead?

Reminds me of a comment of a fellow American (I’m Canadian) who said that they ban Kinder Eggs (Chocolate egg with a toy inside) because they love and care for their children!

I think this conversation misses a point. It’s not about whether eating dirt makes you sick or if not washing hands spreads colds…it’s about WHY parents don’t want their kids to EVER get colds, etc. Kids get sick and THAT improves their immune systems. Seeking to prevent every virus that comes along serves the purpose of weakening the immune system to my mind. And remember, every viral illness that one gets as a kid is one s/he won’t get as an adult. The fear of snot is the real issue here! 🙂

Ever see the episode of MythBusters where they put 24 toothbrushes at various distances from their toilet to see if they had fecal coliform bacteria on them? Not only did ALL the toothbrushes have it, the two control toothbrushes that were kept under cover, well away from the bathroom, tested positive as well! As Jamie said,” there’s poo everywhere! Whaddya gonna do?” And as the bacteriologist who tested the toothbrushes said, “it’s nothing to worry about. After all, we’re all here and we’re all healthy, right?” Thank you, Adam and Jamie!

Donna, (not picking on what you are saying) but, in the past did people just live with these things because there was not much they could do? Do people today have a higher expectation that modern medicines will cure everything?

I think the question of allergies is multi-faceted, myself. Not just that those with a weaker immune system manage to live and reproduce. Not just that a super-clean environment may be confusing a body prepared to fight. What about diet– the over-processed and chemical laden foods? Especially the things that the most other countries ban because of the health concerns (like red 40). I’m not convinced that better-living-through-chemistry is the best fuel for our bodies…. and there is increasing evidence of how much a mother’s diet during pregnancy may influence the kid’s palate and health. And now the evidence coming out against BPA in cans (one can of soup results in elevated BPA levels in the body) plus the trans fat and other things. These things are hard to prove because of the many variables in a person’s diet, but this is one of the HUGE changes since the turn of the century (heh, meaning of course 1900). Commercialized, processed, chemically altered wide-spread food for everyone.

I admit I have some bias in this regard. If I had been a different person, I’d be taking prednisone still to treat my allergy symptoms. My doctor was convinced it was just pollen (even though the pollen counts that week were almost nill) and just prescribed a drug. Unwilling to take a steroid, I tried an elimination diet and found the real culprit was wheat. Without this step on my own, I would have been just another person with severe “seasonal” allergies– except I wasn’t. My seasonal allergies are quite mild. Similarly, the Celiac forums are FULL of stories of people misdiagnoses for years, decades even– because few people, even doctors, are able to process that the problem is the very core of the American/ Western diet– the ubiquitous wheat. This is only one example, but it makes me question how big of an impact diet can have. Could it be affecting our bodies in ways we would never know– because the afflicted are too late or unlikely to undertake the challenge of an elimination diet?

But the question was raised about what has changed– and I see diet as a huge change between then and now.

Beckys, I don’t watch the show, but I read a similar report. As the researcher said in it, stray fecal matter is just one of those nasty parts of life it’s best not to think about. (And this is why we still have yet to wipe out cholera and rotovirus. I had rotovirus. Awful, awful disease.)

Point of biology, folks:

Dirt from a garden, or lake water, is filled with ordinary bacteria that, according to the hygiene hypothesis, help a baby’s immune system develop normally and may help prevent allergies. These bacteria are not dangerous unless you have a seriously compromised immune system or they get into a large open wound.

A door handle that a person with the flu just touched is another matter entirely. Living in a modern crowded society, even the most sheltered children are exposed to plenty of viruses already. More exposure to viruses does NOT help balance a child’s immune system, it just makes the kid sick with a nasty respiratory infection, which actually INCREASES the risk of asthma.

So, with a strong family history of allergies on both sides (including allergies to sterilizing chemicals) I will let my kids swim in lakes (that aren’t too polluted.) I will have them dig in the garden and not fuss too much about handwashing right after. But when out in public around sick people, I will keep their hands clean.

Let’s have the facts straight : )

Elizabeth, if telling babies “no” worked, consistently, every time, life would just be AWESOME.

However, alas, babies don’t speak English.

At any rate, I didn’t want to put a baby in the seat of the grocery cart. That’s where I put all my STUFF. When I had to go shopping with my baby niece (back when she was a baby), I wore her in my mei-tai.

I did note that when I did not let my kids ride in the “kiddie” carts (fire engines, butterflies) that the amount of sickness went down for the whole family. When the swine flu hit, I went to the store really early in the morning by myself and the sickness level even decreased more.

Unfortunately, we had to move the end of that summer, and I had no choice but to take them with me when my husband left two weeks early for his new job. We all got the swine flu and the youngest made a trip to the ER because he couldn’t breath. Exactly what I was trying to avoid. I had been hoping we could hold off getting sick until a vaccination came out. Swine flu was THE most miserable two weeks of our lives. Followed closely by the week we all had the Noro virus. The few times as an adult that I wished I had my mommy there to help me out.

I do try to use the wipes on the cart handles now, and to make sure we wash hands when we get home. I am not sure though if it is the climate or a generally more healthy population, (or age, outgrowing some) but we have not gotten as sick since we moved to eastern WA. It is dry and desert like, and cooler in winter, hotter in summer.

@wksocmom – Whooping cough is probably also a problem in middle class children because parents are more susceptible to the BS spouted by certain B-list celebs that childhood immunizations are bad. I read that they are more likely to not have their children immunized.

@moliie: you make an excellent point about practicing acceptance! As parents we have a tough job– we have to sift through the possibilities, the facts and “facts”, the unsolicited advice from people who may or may not know the facts, and the ever changing public opinion. Then we have to choose what we think is best– and we may be wrong. I let my son climb on some cube-chair/ foot rest things at the portrait studio… and he managed to fall off and hit his head on the only hard thing in the vicinity. But I think the experience of climbing onto them was rewarding, even if there was later a negative experience (which reinforced a caution of edges and climbing.)

“Elizabeth, if telling babies “no” worked, consistently, every time, life would just be AWESOME.
However, alas, babies don’t speak English.”

By the time they are old enough to sit up in a cart they understand the word “no”. 😉 At least all of my babies did/do and most babies I know did. If you consistently tell them “no” in a gentle, but firm way and show them what you mean, they will catch on fairly quickly. (Like if they are leaning forward to put the handle in their mouth you stop them and shake your head and say, “no” gently but firmly. Do this consistently several times and they will understand.) However, it IS much easier in this situation to use a cart cover or a wrap – I also used wraps for my babies while shopping.

I have 4 kids, ages 10, 7, 4, and 1 and when my older two were little we used to be relaxed about good hygiene as some have mentioned here – letting babies chew on cart handles, only washing our hands when we saw dirt, etc. They were sick the normal amount of average kids – several colds a year, vomiting at least once or twice a season, a few ear infections/strep/bronchitis, etc. Then 5 years ago when oldest was 5 and the second was 2 and I was pregnant with #3 I decided I wanted to see if taking a few precautions limited our sicknesses. So I bought a cart cover, we washed our hands after every outing and before every meal, and we avoided sick people. Let me tell you, in those 5 years we have not had the stomach bug even once, we have had an average of one or maybe two cold a year, and no doctor visits for any ear infections/bronchitis/strep. We are free to live our lives without illnesses getting in the way as much as they used to. (And we did not change our diet, as we had always eaten very healthy.) My kids are happy and healthy and allergy free and they play outside for hours every day. So while certainly the theory that germs are everywhere may be very true, it is also true that with very little effort, you can cut down on illnesses quite a bit. And who wouldn’t want that? 🙂

“They were sick the normal amount of average kids — several colds a year, vomiting at least once or twice a season, a few ear infections/strep/bronchitis, etc.”

That’s the normal amount of sickness for average kids? Your one year total is far more sickness than my child has had in all her 6+ years combined – without flu shots, sanitizers, cart covers, regular hand washing (except at school) or avoiding ill people and while attending day care/public school.

I guess that it is kind of a catch 22. Kids with iron immune systems like mine can afford to eat dirt and take no sickness precautions at all. People with weaker immune systems – those who need to build up immune systems – can’t because who has time to deal with all that sickness.

Hi ‘Germ Guy’!

The ‘germ theory’ (the one that says that a bit of dirt is good to build up the immune system of your child) had, a couple of years ago, sprouted off a new shoot; the Helminthic theory, which has spawned the Helminthic therapy. I wonder if you could give your opinion?

In short, it was suggested that there was a clear link between the absense of intestal parasites (worms) and the occurrance of asthma. In Third World countries, intestal parasites are the norm and asthma hardly occurs (although the people in Third World countries have bigger things to worry about than asthma!). In First World countries, intestal worms were still rife until a couple of decades ago, but with the germphobia, parasites became more and more the exception instead of the rule.

From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy

“While it is recognized that there is probably a genetic disposition in certain individuals for the development of autoimmune diseases, the rate of increase in incidence of autoimmune diseases cannot be explained by genetics alone. There is evidence that one of the primary reasons for the increase in autoimmune diseases in the industrialized nations is the significant change in environmental factors over the last century. Environmental factors include exposure to certain artificial chemicals from industrial processes, medicines, farming and food preparation. It is posited that the absence of exposure to certain parasites, bacteria and viruses is playing a significant role in the development of autoimmune diseases in the more sanitized Western industrialized nations.

Lack of exposure to naturally occurring pathogens and parasites may result in an increased incidence of autoimmune diseases. This is consistent with the hygiene hypothesis. A complete explanation of how environmental factors play a role in autoimmune diseases has still not been proposed. However epidemiological studies, such as the meta analysis by Leonardi-Bee et al., have helped to establish the link between parasitic infestation and its protective role in autoimmune disease development.

Some recent research appears to confirm that the central tenet of the hygiene hypothesis is true — that parasites, and in particular helminths, have shaped the evolution of at least parts of the human immune system, and even the genes responsible for Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis and celiac disease — and provides further evidence that it is the absence of parasites, and in particular helminths, that has caused a substantial portion of the increase in incidence of diseases of immune dysregulation and inflammation in industrialized countries in the last century.

Although the mechanism of autoimmune disease development is not fully defined, there is broad agreement that the majority of autoimmune diseases are caused by inappropriate immunological responses to innocuous antigens, driven by a branch of the immune system known as the TH1 type immune response. Extra-cellular antigens primarily trigger the TH2 response, as observed with allergies, while intracellular antigens trigger a TH1 response. The relationship between these two types of immune response is a central theme of the hygiene hypothesis, which suggests that there is a regulatory action between the two types of response. However, the observation that allergies and autoimmune response are increasing at a similar rate in the industrialized nations appears to undermine the hygiene hypothesis.

A refinement of the hygiene hypothesis, which overcomes this apparent contradiction, is the “old friends hypothesis.” The old friends hypothesis modifies the hygiene hypothesis by proposing that T regulator cells can only become fully effective if they are stimulated by exposure to microorganisms and parasites that have low levels of pathogenicity, and which have coexisted universally with human beings throughout our evolutionary history. This theory has recently been given more credibility by a study demonstrating the impact of infectious organisms, and helminths in particular, upon genes responsible for the production of various cytokines, some involved in the regulation of inflammation, in particular those associated with the development of Crohn’s Disease, ulcerative colitis, and celiac disease.

The hygiene hypothesis proposes that appropriate immune response is in part learned by exposure to these microorganisms and parasites, and in part regulated by their presence. In the industrialised nations, humans are exposed to somewhat lower levels of these organisms. The development of vaccines, hygienic practices, and effective medical care have diminished or eliminated the prevalence and impact of many parasitic organisms, as well as bacterial and viral infections. This has been of obvious benefit with the effective eradication of many diseases that have plagued human beings. However, while many severe diseases have been eradicated, humans’ exposure to benign and apparently beneficial parasites has also been reduced commensurately. The central thrust of the theory is, therefore, that correct development of T regulator cells in individuals may depend on exposure to organisms such as lactobacilli, various mycobacteria, and helminths.[6] Lack of exposure to sufficient benign antigens, particularly during childhood, is sometimes suggested as a cause of the increase in autoimmune diseases and diseases for which chronic inflammation is a major component in the industrialized world.”

Wow, these comments have been amazing! I personally err on the side of things being genetic, and just ‘good luck’ or no, although I realise I am not being very scientific. Of my three kids, the eldest and the baby (now nearly eleven, sadly….) have very occasional allergic reactions to the odd thing, e.g. strawberries, some types of tomato sauce (very rarely). They are otherwise so healthy that the baby almost lost her place on the doctor’s patient list, LOL! ‘Midge’ has been sickly, for want of a better word. Between the ages of 3 and 5 she was at the doctor’s almost every fortnight – it got so bad that she would cry every time we drove past his surgery and didn’t go in, as he was one of her bffs! (She is growing out of it, only at the doctor’s 5 or 6 times last year). Except for the fact that Midge was stuck inside (in bed) a lot because of illness, the three kids have had the same germ environment.

Hubby grew up in a very germy environment (tropical Malaysia, very poor neighbourhood, 8 families to a house etc.). They played in the jungle, swam (whenever Mum wasn’t looking!) in the filthy creek nearby, and in the ocean, in spite of not actually knowing how to swim 🙂 . He still has allergies to several things, including almost all seafood. BTW this has never stopped him eating the stuff – I told him last time his face and throat swelled up from eating crays that he could get himself to the doctor, as he is a middle-aged man, and should jolly well know better! (Unlike peanuts, traces of which can be in many things, a footlong crayfish sitting on your plate is pretty hard to miss, LOL!). Ibid for his mother, who grew up during the Japanese occupation of Singapore/Malaysia, when survival took precedence over the environment, germfree or otherwise. She and her relatives still have allergies.

There also seems to be a thing with lots of Asians not having the gene to break down lactose in milk – hence a lot show up with allergies in NZ, great dairy-producing country that we are (Not that we can afford to buy it these days, darn Fonterra!)

I also wanted to add that it is my personal belief that we are giving way too many vaccines. I think this can mess up the natural responses of the immune system, as well. I truly believe from what I have seen, that many of the learning disabilities, asthma, etc. is caused in part by overloading on vaccines. But that’s another topic, entirely. 😉

@ Marion Ros

Spot on!

As I have celiac disease am just popping outside to lick the lawn!

I have of late also wondered whether we are all getting tubbier (except those who starve ourselves methodically and constantly) because we are no longer playing host to the horde of parasites our bodies evolved with.

David –

I definitely agree that people now see doctors way too often. Not just because of doctor’s notes but because, thanks to the miracle of antibiotics, we want an instant cure for everything that ails us. Every single time I so much a sneeze, my grandmother tells me to go to the doctor.

I agree on the vaccines too. My daughter has the bare minimum allowed for school registration and I still would have cut some out if I could have. Kids really need a vaccine against chicken pox? It’s been awhile but I don’t remember it being that deadly of a disease; just kinda an itchy week-long rite of passage.

Catherine, I would be interested in seeing documentation that having chicken pox increases your risk of developing cancer. I certainly have never heard of such a thing. Also, yes you can develop shingles after having chicken pox. However, did you know you can also develop shingles after having the vaccine? Not only is it possible but it has happened – several times. And these are children coming down with shingles. Also, recent studies have shown that the chance of getting shingles as an adult is decreased by being exposed to children with chicken pox. In other words, by being exposed to the virus it gives our immune systems a natural boost against shingles. Well, due to mass vaccination, shingles is now rising in adults and will continue to rise. Which now means they develop now another vaccination – a shingles vaccination. But mass vaccinating adults just doesn’t happen. So shingles will continue to rise and children will only be protected for a few short years from chicken pox and will have to continue to receive boosters the rest of their lives if they hope to keep their immunity – which most probably won’t. The actual virus provides a much longer immunity – lifetime for most individuals.

“I admit I have some bias in this regard. If I had been a different person, I’d be taking prednisone still to treat my allergy symptoms. My doctor was convinced it was just pollen (even though the pollen counts that week were almost nill) and just prescribed a drug. But the question was raised about what has changed— and I see diet as a huge change between then and now.”

I recognise that from my sister, who was misdiagnosed with everything from laziness (is that a disease?) to asthma to bronchitis to Pfeiffer’s disease to sleeping sickness (seriously, in northern Europe?) for over a decade.
Turned out it was lactase alergy (milk protein), which is even more ubiquitous in our diet than is wheat (especially here, where wey powder is cheaper than wheat, and is used as filler, stiffener, etc. etc. in almost all processed foods).

What got her diagnosed wasn’t her changing her diet (who’d think of something promoted as good for you to actually be bad?) but by chance running into a doctor who’d just visited a seminar on rare alergies where lactase alergy was one of the topics, a doctor willing to look beyond the “food pyramid” and standard charts of “symptom A means patient has disease X”.

@ Donna: Funny you should mention flu vaccines. I was so fascinated with the Vital Statistics Report that I read the whole thing, plus a couple earlier ones.

In the past few decades, we’ve seen a decrease in age-adjusted mortality every year EXCEPT the ones with major flu epidemics. The increased death rate from bad flu seasons is statistically significant even in school aged children. I stared at that fact and I stared some more, and then I said,

“Oh, THAT’s why the CDC is pushing flu vaccines for everyone.”

@ Donna

My father likes to observe about war casualties that the casualties are never light to those who die.

Here’s some figures for death and disability in the US from chickenpox before vaccination became routine:

‘Before the introduction of the varicella vaccine in 1995, approximately 4 million cases of chickenpox were reported annually, including 4,000 to 9,000 hospitalizations and 100 deaths. Since the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine, the number of cases has dropped dramatically.

I reckon the parents of every single one of those children who died would have jumped at the chance to save their lives via a routine jab.

As to the adult death rate, I reckon the same applies:

‘Complications of Adult Chickenpox
Chickenpox complications are more likely to occur in adults than in children. Despite the fact that adults account for only 5 percent of chickenpox cases per year, they account for a disproportionate number of deaths (55 percent) and hospitalizations (33 percent) compared to children.’

As to measles I saw a childhood friend die of same and have worked with children with post measles encephalitis, also known as subacute sclerosing panencephalitis and something you do not want to happen to anyone you know.

I’d rather that vaccination programs take a while to get just right than that sort of suffering be visited on anyone.

Katherine, the cancer link you provided is associated with shingles. Not chickenpox. And the chicken pox vaccine does not stop shingles. In fact even kids are coming down with shingles now. Also, the cancer rate was slightly higher in patients that had shingles compared to patients without it. This is not surprising since cancer patients have an increased risk of catching shingles in the first place.

“I do wonder whether this line of argument comes out an unarticulated puritanical impulse that preventing suffering makes people — or their immune systems — ‘soft’.”

Nope. If I could avoid every once of suffering for my child with no negative repercussions, I’d be a happy camper. But life is not 100% cheery and a vaccine doesn’t equal getting the disease. It’s about continuing to give more and more vaccines to tiny, barely developed people for more and more minor or unlikely illnesses with no consideration, or even really knowledge, as to the costs of doing so and whether it is truly the best thing to do. Medical science seems to have one train of thought – CAN we replace this disease with a vaccine – but doesn’t seem to put any thought whatsoever into whether we SHOULD replace this disease with a vaccine.

There is no benefit of chicken pox or flu or whatever. There is a measurable risk of death but some people seem happy to wear this on the grounds it will be other peoples’ kids who die, not theirs.

Last year in India there was precisely ONE case of polio. One. Why? Vaccination.

No-one gets small pox anymore. Why? Vaccination.

The point is if people were routinely vaccinated against chickenpox then it too would go away and no-one’s kids would have to die of it. Ever again.

This is why public health decisions are made on the base of large scale epidemiological studies, not personal experience/preference.

@ JaneW – Swine flu and the annual flu are not actually the same thing. You can’t eradicate the annual flu. There are a large number of strains of the flu and it mutates every year. The only advantage to a flu shot is that you won’t get the flu strains contained in the shot that year. You can get any other flu strain out there though, and many people who get flu shots still get another strain of flu that year.

“While I’d vaccinate MY child against those illnesses, you have the right not to vaccinate yours. A student carrying hepatitis is not a threat to his homeroom class.”

How is an unvaccinated child a threat to your VACCINATED child for anything? An unvaccinated child is only a threat to other unvaccinated children. The kids could french kiss during the height of contagion and your child wouldn’t get sick.

“To my mind, there’s a difference between allowing my child to play outside and allowing him to catch vaccine-preventable diseases. Both have a small, nonzero risk of serious harm, but outdoor play has clear benefits. I don’t see the BENEFIT of chicken pox or flu.”

I don’t see a particular benefit to the chicken pox or flu either. I see a benefit to not being vaccinated against mild illnesses on top of all the other, and very valid, vaccines that small children face. I see minimal benefit and unknown costs to mandatory vaccinations for illnesses that in 99.9999% of the cases amount to little more than an itchy week. There’s a HUGE difference between the two things.

And nobody has proven that there is not actually a cost to all these vaccines. That pumping bits of a multitude of diseases into the body of a very young child – diseases that individually may not be deadly but would certainly kill the child if he were unfortunate enough to suffer them all at once – is 100% positive with nothing negative. Nobody has even said that there are zero side effects to the vaccines because that’s definitely not true. The side effects from the chicken pox vaccine range from a swollen knots to month-long rashes to seizures to allergic reactions including death.

How is an unvaccinated child a threat to your VACCINATED child for anything? An unvaccinated child is only a threat to other unvaccinated children. The kids could french kiss during the height of contagion and your child wouldn’t get sick.

Except that vaccines, like condoms, are not 100%. There is always a percentage of the population for whom the vaccine doesn’t take, or whose immunity wears off later. (I even know of people who have had, say, measles more than once. Nothing is 100%.)

And of course, some people are unvaccinated not due to personal choice or even religious reasons, but because they are allergic to what’s in the vaccines or have a condition that makes vaccination dangerous. This is a legitimate health risk for them, because they actually can’t get vaccinated.

Unvaccinated kids,without a real medical reason, are a danger to others because
1. Not all vaccinations take
2. Not everyone can be vaccinated due to real scientific reasons.
3. People buying into disproven unscientific arguments are a general danger because they choose ignorance. If the “scientists” who support your position are being stripped of their credentials and facing prosecution for fraud you need to rethink your position.

I was in the last group of kids, who were required to be vaccinated for smallpox. That was the 1 vaccination I did not receive that was required. It is contraindicated for people with my skin disorder. I was protected because my classmates were vaccinated. (This is current not just 40 years ago science. My cousin was vaccinated as 1st responder – she was told to stay away from people with my disorder. She called me to warn me, and ask if any of the young kids have the same disorder. )

I teach at a school with aprox. 600 students 1 student does not get any vaccinations because she being treated for cancer, 1 can’t have a certain class because she is allergic to an ingredient.

We were getting close to eliminate several of the “childhood viruses” from the world before Andrew Wakefield started passing on his false information and creating a hysteria. Now we are having epidemics again.

@kherbert That is indeed a very good reason to get rid even of the nuisance but highly contagious diseases.

Herpes group viruses are hardy and adaptable little fellows, which should not be given a chance to do a little evolving at the human race’s expense.

@ Catherine – No the difference is what we value.

You value the here and now and only the here and now. As long as no kid is dying from chicken pox right this second, the vaccine must be okay. You’re not going to think about future possibilities or whether price is worth the costs. The only thing that matters is right this second 100 children are not going to die. If 10,000 children die 20 years from now because of this choice, who cares.

I’m thinking about the future for every kid. I believe that vaccines should be used very judiciously and not taken lightly or used for mild illnesses. To me eradicating an extremely mild illness is not worth the negatives or unknowns. Not for my child – she’s had the stupid vaccine and I can’t take it back – but for the upcoming generations.

Look at our experience with antibiotics. In the 50s – 80s, they were the miracle drug. Doctors handed them out like candy for any minor illness that walked into their offices. Pharmaceutical companies encouraged this because they made more money. Nobody thought it was a problem (or didn’t care because they were making money) and nobody thought this would come back and bite us in the ass. We’ve now been bitten in the ass. We have antibiotics that were so overused that they now are completely useless. There are many strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria, including serious diseases like MRSA and TB, and those will continue to grow as bacteria mutates to combat the antibiotics in existence. At some point, we could be in a place where there are no useful antibiotics anymore. Now people are dying and being disfigured from antibiotic-resistant bacteria thanks to people who used antibiotics for minor (and probably not even bacterial) illnesses in previous decades. But, hey those people felt better and we shouldn’t think about how our actions impact future generations.

We don’t know if there is a tipping point with vaccines, just like nobody ever suspected that throwing antibiotics at every sneeze would be a problem. We don’t know if there will be a point where the human body rebels from all these vaccines. If there will be a point when vaccines stop working and make matters worse. If there will become a point when all these vaccines start interacting with each other in negative ways. If there will be some vaccine for a serious illness that arrives later that can’t be given if you’ve had the chicken pox vaccine. They say that the true sign of insanity is to continue to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result. I think that is where we are with vaccines. We’ve learned nothing from antibiotics. We’re going to keep throwing vaccines at any remote and/or minor illness thinking it’s no big deal until we get bitten in the ass.

Vaccines should be used, and only used, for serious illnesses. This is NOT for my child. My child is old enough that she is not going to be affected by new vaccines added to the mix. This is for my grand children and great grandchild and your children and grandchildren. If I considered solely what was in the best interest of my child, I’d have her vaccinated to the hilt so she never gets sick. I’d put her on antibiotics every time she sneezes too. But neither is what is best for society.

Arguing by analogy does not prove the point. Overuse of antibiotics causes problems because of organisms’ ability to become resistant.It does not ‘prove’ that other medical practices will go the same route.

It’s possible to think up all kinds of potential harms but these need to be tested against the evidence.

Mass immunisation programs are now very old indeed (in operation since the 1950s) and there’s been plenty of time to see what happens next. There is no evidence of mass ill-effects. There is a lot of evidence of benefits, including a decrease in the US by 90% of hospitalisations and deaths from chickenpox since vaccination began. If it turns out that protection wanes, then re-vaccinate at the appropriate time rather than go back to the mortality, morbidity, cost and anguish for those who end up or see their kids end up in hospital from a preventable cause.

I just don’t think people should die who don’t have to. And I don’t think a virus from a nasty and inventive group, like herpes, should be allowed to continue evolving.

In terms of the dark plots of evil Big Pharma the chickenpox vaccine was created by Japanese professor of health, Michiaki Takahashi in 1974.

As to the human body rebelling against vaccines, well, we are all constantly exposed to multiple germs and their products. They live in and on and all around us. Why are the live attenuated, heat killed or fragments of bacteria and viruses in vaccines in any way special EXCEPT that they are in vaccines? What makes them different, except how we categorise them in our heads? That some people don’t like it, feel uneasy about it is not proof that this practice is harmful.

We keep talking about chickenpox as a meh sort of childhood illness that it’s okay for kids to get. Let’s ask the kids. Well, someone did. Kids who had recovered form the disease recently were asked whether they’d rather have the pox or the jab. They said the jab. It’s not a very pleasant illness that usually lasts in total four to five weeks, including the incubation phase during which kids are unwell to some extent or another.

And for those concerned about threatened species, gorillas and chimpanzees also suffer from chickenpox.

If we don’t want to save people, let’s spare the gorillas.

@ CherylW
Yep, I am selfish in exactly the same way, even while seeing immunisation as a civic duty.

My first three kids got the pox because there was no available vaccine. Very unpleasant for them and, as it was one after the other and there were some complications and weakened immune system from same led to a serious of infections (eg gastro, bronchitis), I had months of worry, stress and disruption to my casual-stagger from one short term contract to another job. Lost wages I couldn’t afford to lose.

It was worse for a friend who had five kids who caught it in the same epidemic. Her baby got it first then one after another the others got it until the baby caught it again because she was too little to mount a proper immune response. My friend was out of commission for five months.

When the vaccine arrived here I queued up to pay to have the youngest of mine get the jab, because it had not been made part of the regular immunisation schedule.

Please also accept that I regard it as a moral duty to immunise and prevent the spread of infectious disease. I have said repeatedly that it is not a decision that is just about my kids.

Nor can it be put down merely to my kids having a rather over active (allergy prone) immune system. And eczema is scarcely a rare condition and all kids with it are prone to have a worse time from chickenpox, more likely to get secondary skin infections etc.

I’m starting to get a bit annoyed with the moral subtext of this argument. Let’s put it right out in the open.

There’s the ‘iron clad sign of morally superior immune system’ and then there’s the ‘weak woozy’ one.

Important public health decisions should not be made on the basis of private estimations of the moral tone of one’s family’s immune system as compared to all the rest of us weaklings, who presumably deserve what we get.

Sigh.

And once again, the anti-vax populace stick their heads up and demonstrate to the world that there are still people happy to believe that their ignorance and “gut feeling” is just as good as other peoples’ verified science.

Do you know what a virus is, Donna? Do you know how they work? Your comparison to bacteria would suggest that you don’t, so I’ll give you a very simple rundown:

There is actually debate at to whether or not a virus can actually be considered to be “alive” (like a bacteria or tapeworm), or simply a very complex harmful chemical (like a poison). Viruses cannot metabolise (grow or make more stuff) and cannot reproduce (make copies) – they need to infect a host cell and use that cell’s metabolic and reproductive functions in order to make more virons. A virus is basically a genome (DNA or RNA – depending on what kind of virus) in a capsule. Some also carry a few enzymes (biological chemicals that carry out small, specific functions). That’s it. Box, genetic material, a couple of tools.

Compare this to a bacteria. Bacteria can metabolise and reproduce by themselves, they just need food, maybe warmth and protection, etc. Bacteria do not get inside your cells and do not use other cells’ functions. Because bacteria are entire cells with their own metabolisms, you can add chemicals to their environment which interfere with their metabolisms and kill them. Because of this fact, bacteria that survive antibacterial drugs can reproduce a new strain that is resistant. None of this is applicable to vaccines for viruses, because these are NOT methods wherein a metabolic process is interfered with – they are methods where the body is stimulated into producing antibodies that very specifically and effectively destroy viruses.

But wait, there’s more.

Because a virus is just a box with some genetic material in it, its life cycle involves going into the host cells, and having that bit of genetic material screwing around inside your cells. I don’t think you need to know much to realise that having a bit of DNA or RNA that is not your own, hanging around inside your cells and using all of the biological equipment in there as if it WAS your own, is incredibly dangerous and has a LOT of negative potential. Because of the way viruses are structured and reproduce, there is a high “error rate” in the way that the new viral genome copies are made. This means that they mutate and evolve all the time, regardless of what we do. Bacteria and parasites don’t come even close to the rate of evolution that viruses display. Bacteria and parasites can be made to evolve when we try to treat them and fail. Viruses will mutate at random regardless of what we do – not that we can really do much, as I’ve explained.

There are even viruses that have tools to write their own genetic material into YOUR DNA. I’m not even kidding, that’s exactly what HIV and Hep B do. Your own DNA, right now, actually contains the genetic remains of this type of virus – which evidently at some point in the past attacked humanity, and humanity survived. Some other viruses can also do the opposite – copy some of your genetic material into its own.

Now you know a bit about viruses and how they work, you can actually come to informed conclusions.

Making arguments from a point of no knowledge is ridiculously stupid. You’ll notice that all of your arguments are actually based on ignorance – “we don’t know”, “in the future” etc. Look at what knowledge we DO have. We DO know that viruses like chicken pox and the flu kill people, hospitalise people, and cause deformations in fetuses – even if the numbers aren’t huge. We DO know that there is a very low rate of negative reactions to vaccines, and very few of them result in death. We DO know that viruses mutate quickly and can be extremely dangerous. These are points of knowledge. Also, this is 2012. Women can vote, all races are considered equal,
and we DON’T go around injecting things into children without that thing having been very stringently evaluated and tested beforehand. Believe it or not, the medical science community has learned from its past mistakes, and works very hard to ensure that its new cures and preventatives are not the next Thalidomide.

And no, Rachel, immunisations should not be a “FREE CHOICE”. This is largely due to the fact that this choice belongs to YOU, but does not affect you. The people who get it in the neck as the result of YOUR idiocy will be your child, his classmates, and then his classmates’ families. The message is simple – if you’re going to send your child to a concentrated facility of children, do not allow him to catch, distribute, and perpetuate diseases through that facility. The people who get hurt the worst will be the very old, the very young, the sick, the weak and the pregnant. You’ll be doing your bit to keep the virus alive, to continue hanging around the world, making people sick, and killing a few each time it goes around, rather than wiping it out, as we did with smallpox. All this based on your gut feeling that it “might” turn out to have some negative effects in the future. Again, position based on what you DON’T know, trumping what you DO know.

Honestly, if I believed in creatures like God and Satan, I’d swear that people who insist that vaccines are bad were working for a Satan-like being.

I don’t appreciate the hateful remarks either, Sera. Take a look at this article:

http://healthfreedoms.org/2009/10/23/children-who-are-not-vaccinated-never-get-autism/

It shows a very large pediatrician’s practice of 35,000 kids who are NOT vaccinated and NONE of them have autism – except for the few who were already vaccinated before switching to his practice. They also have VIRTUALLY NO CASES of asthma. The doctor who opened the practice had a son who was damaged by vaccines and developed autism from the results of his 15 month old vaccines. It’s hard for a person with any sort of logic to ignore such a huge “unofficial case study”. Of course the studies run by government and pharmaceutical companies say vaccines don’t cause these things. There is a lot of money at stake in vaccines…. Now do I believe every child will be affected? Absolutely not. But it is a bit like playing russian roulette. As for me and my family, we live out in the country, homeschool, and live a VERY healthy lifestyle. We practice extended breastfeeding, whole organic foods from our farm, get plenty of fresh air and exercise, so our odds are very low of contracting any of these diseases. So our choice is to wait until our kids are older teens/young adults and have a blood tilter done on them. That will show what immunities they may have already picked up, and then vaccinate for the ones that would be be important/beneficial to get. At this point their systems will be able to handle more without such a great risk of effects and the immunities will be there through at least their young adulthoods when pregnancy risks are greatest. (If you think you are still protected against many of the diseases you were vaccinated against as kids, you may want to get checked out by a doctor. Most likely you aren’t and need to be re vaccinated, because unlike the real disease, the immunities don’t last more than a few years). I just wish more studies would be done to make the ingredients safer for little bodies. :/

Uly, I have close connections to the Amish in PA and OH, and they DO NOT vaccinate for the most part. At least the conservative don’t. I believe I read that 6% do, but I would hardly call that vaccinating. 🙂 (They also don’t have autism. I don’t think anyone ever said that vaccinations are the sole and only cause of autism. Just that they increase it so that it is no longer considered as “rare” as it was with your family, I’m sure.) Maybe you know of some Amish that do vaccinate? I don’t know. But the ones I’ve had the pleasure of being around do not.

Sera –

I am not anti-vaccine; I’m anti-stupid vaccines and I think chicken pox is a stupid vaccine. An opinion that I’m entitled to. As you are entitled to yours whatever it is.

I wouldn’t know what your opinion is as I didn’t read anything your wrote after the second sentence. If you would like to engage me in a discussion, or write something I will bother to read, I’d suggest you do so without trying to be condescending, rude and immature. Hopefully, you will learn before you graduate college that your knowledge and opinions are completely irrelevant if nobody bothers to read them because your writing sucks.

@Donna – I think you did yourself a disservice by not reading past Sera’s second sentence. It was one of the best explanation of viruses in layman terms that I have run across in a long time. I think your dismissal of valid arguments against your “chicken pox vaccines are stupid” stance is no better than any of the “rudeness” you ascribe to Sera.

I think it may be time for all of us to let this thread go.

My brother suggested I might like this web site. He used to be entirely right. This post truly made my day. You can not believe just how a lot time I had spent for this info! Thank you!

Idiocracy is a eugenicist’s favorite movie. Fuck eugenics and the subtle support for eugenics that is rampant throughout our society.