Trying to be Perfect while Pregnant

My midwife calls the What to Expect series “How to Expect Complications.” She says that if your doctor (she believes in shadow care) is recommending couch rest or otherwise keeping your blood pressure down, you need to not read those books. Try Ina May Gaskin instead.

I am regularly glad that I never read the What to Expect books when I was pregnant. There are so many better pregnancy books and resources out there.

It didn’t even occur to me that I was pregnant until I was 10-11 weeks pregnant with my son. (I struggled with infertility, but that’s besides the point.) I had a pretty active job that involved chemicals and sick people (I was a housekeeper at a hospital.) Before I told everybody I was expecting I was using floor scrubbing machines, going up and down step ladders, picking up sort of heavy items (not really), but once my boss knew I was pregnant everything changed. I was banned from doing anything remotely “dangerous” like standing on a 6 inch step stool so I could do my job. I was basically treated like I was going to fall apart at any moment. I also got chewed out by “concerned” friends for carrying small bags of groceries from the store because it might “send me into labor” (which was the point, I was due and my midwife told me walking might help speed things up and since the store was close……)
Pregnant women aren’t little china dolls that will break if they do anything remotely “strenuous” or “dangerous”. I was glad that I was too busy working and trying to save up some money to read any of those fear mongering baby and pregnancy books.

if women behaved the was experts think they should and act that way and eat that way, the human race would have died out long ago. you simply can not remove have the population and work force [and in reality it doesn’t happen even today] and survive as a species. if you had gone back to ancient , mideviel or even pioneer times , the work and diet they had would have caused today’s experts to die of shock!

When I was having assorted aches and pains associated with pregnancy, my midwife told me that it was fine to take a hot bath; the only rule was to immediately cool myself down if I started feeling uncomfortably warm. I did notice that even the midwife’s list of “bad foods” seemed to grow with each pregnancy, but I didn’t follow it strictly. I tried to eat healthy foods, but I also ate pretty much whatever I was craving at the moment, and my kids turned out fine. I know people who didn’t eat any “junk food” while pregnancy, which sounds like torture. Someone told me it was bad to eat peanut butter while pregnant — I lived on it during my first trimester with my son, who ended up with various hereditary environmental allergies but no peanut allergy.

Eileen – She isn’t offering medical advice. What she is offering is a statistical analysis of the true likelihood of all these horrible things happening during pregnancy. Of course a doctor will disagree with her. They want you to be 100% perfect because you will sue them if they say you can eat lunch meat and there just happens to be a freak outbreak of listeria in lunch meat available in your area during your pregnancy despite the fact that such an incidence is extraordinarily rare and as randomly unlucky as say, getting kidnapped by a stranger while walking to school.

Under your theory, we shouldn’t listen to a word Lenore says either because Lenore is a journalist and not an expert on child development or criminology. Her advice is based on the exact same statistical analysis relied on by this economist and cannot possibly be trusted over a PhD in child development and criminology (do you have to have both to be a reliable source of information on letting your children out of your sight?)

Seems to me that the fear and worry caused by seeing danger everywhere are more harmful to the unborn baby than a lot of the things expecting Moms are afraid of. As for the “What to Expect” series they mentioned lots of risks, but glossed over the one that happened to me — I don’t recall them mentioning stillbirth at all back in 2002 and yet it does still happen — it happened to me at 38 weeks pregnant. Luckily I don’t blame myself at all — there was a knot in the cord — nothing I could have done a single thing about! At least that’s what my doctors said and I choose to believe them.

@Donna – she wrote an entire book about what pregnant woman can (statistically) do while pregnant. She might be presenting it from a statistical standpoint, but that should never replace what your own Dr tells you (presuming you have a good relationship with Dr you trust/respect and can actually have face to face discussion with).

Here’s the link the MSNBC discussion:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3036789/ns/msnbc-morning_joe/vp/52799512

I suppose this column, written by a Dr., covers my thoughts on the book pretty well.

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/blog/shortwhitecoat/2013/09/expecting_better_from_your_doc.html

Or is it possible that earlier editions that came out in the late 80’s were less obsessive? That would sort of fit with the cultural mood.

In trying to determine which edition I read while pregnant in 1998 I learned that there is now a What to Expect BEFORE You’re Expecting (2009). Yowza.

Personally I preferred the Girlfriend’s Guide to Pregnancy.

My sister was an obsessive reader of “What to Expect” when she had her first child. She even knows one of the authors. When I announced my pregnancy her first words of advise were that I should NOT read “What to Expect.”

I appreciate the analysis from a Dr. that Eileen pointed out. I agree that doctors will give you a straight answer if you ask, and if they think you won’t freak out on them.

Which brings me to the thing about hot tubs supposedly being a no-no. My local pool has big signs saying (among other things) that pregnant women need permission from their doctors. I asked my doctor and she said that the restriction is based on studies showing that elevated body temperature (from illness) increase the risk of miscarriage during the first trimester. So by the time a mom is showing the risk has passed. The only remaining risk is that hot water brings blood to the surface of your skin and can make a mother faint. She advised me to get right out if I felt light headed, adding this is instinctive for most people. And she said not stay in more than 15 minutes (same as the pool’s time limit). But then despite saying that she saw no medical risk to it, she recommended I avoid the hot tub “because people are going to be really upset if you try it.”

Yeah, I see that so often in discussions about what’s safe, when you try to bring rationality in. Several moms will say “but it *could* happen and if it did, I would never forgive myself.” The implication being that I must be less of a mom if I think I could forgive myself should the nearly impossible happen to my kid.

Then when you say “you’d better sell your car then, and your bathtubs” you get “come on, be realistic.” LOL.

Obviously when something bad happens, we do a lot of second-guessing. I suppose it’s part of that stage of grieving where you want to deny or negotiate or be angry . . . it’s natural, but it doesn’t mean that it’s a rational way to think about everything every day.

Today there is a discussion about Gardasil on a facebook group. It seems people have somehow become convinced that everyone who has ever had HPV is probably going to get cervical cancer. Meanwhile it doesn’t seem to bother anyone that the manufacturer’s own research report states that giving the vax to people who already have HPV increases the risk of cancer quite a bit. And that despite this, FDA and doctors still recommend giving the vax to people who have HPV. Because it might prevent the *other* strains which are actually less likely to cause cancer than the vax itself at that point. They are playing on the idea that “this vax is giving you control over the monster, and who doesn’t want control over our kids’ health?” When in fact the real big bad monsters are still very much out there.

Statistics. When I hear my pregnant friends talk about how they won’t eat smoked salmon or drink a drop of wine, I shake my head. I say, do you still drive in a car? Because you are much more likely to harm you or your fetus from getting in a car accident than getting sick from smoke salmon.

I asked my doctor if I could have sushi for my birthday. I really wanted it. She said, sure, just stay away from the fish with high mercury rates. The second time I was pregnant my new doctor told me it was no problem to ride almost any ride at Disneyland (I was 16 weeks) – she said she had done just the same thing a couple weeks prior (also pregnant).

Anyway, I drank an occasional glass of wine. I also had one cup of coffee every single day.

@SKL,
You are quite right. The “I’d never forgive myself” no matter how minor or circumspect the possible fault is angle, comes up with every discussion of risk or potential risk (except getting in a car). Ultimately I think that is the root of the ‘worst first’ culture. Because if we blame ourselves and hold our selves unforgivable should anything happen… then we will find it obligatory to know every tiny risk and take every precaution, no matter how wild or unlikely to be useful lest we become unforgivable.

Perhaps what society really needs is more understanding that life exists beyond grief. That forgiveness of self is both necessary and do-able. That I have been through the process, perhaps provides some inoculation.

Over-the-top fears are often rooted in negative emotional issues from the past. Yet most people think they’re just being rational, safe, and smart.

I’ve just about reached the end of my first trimester, and quite frankly, I had always expected to not be particularly interested in the food safety pregnancy rules. I always thought I’d be more worried about toxins than germs. Then I got knocked flat for several weeks by a cold that wouldn’t go away, and now I’m certainly more concerned about germs than I’ve ever been before (usually preferring the theory that more exposure to germs leads to a more robust immune system). So I’m trying to be mindful of my lowered immune system without turning into one of those crazy pregnant ladies, and I’m way more invested in not eating lunch meat than I thought I would be.

And yet I’m also doing things, with my midwife’s approval, like continuing to bike regularly in NYC traffic, something that I’m sure will drive my mother-in-law to distraction if she ever finds out about it – she’s of the opinion that biking on roads is not safe for healthy adults, much less pregnant women and fetuses.

BTW, I have not found the “What to Expect” book to be as scary as I keep hearing it is. I have the most recent version ($1.99 at a thrift store!) and either they’ve removed that controversial “every single bite” advice or I somehow skipped it. Plus, it seems like all the scary complications are segregated into a chapter of their own near the end, and are thus quite easy to avoid if you’re really just looking for what to expect.

In response to Eileen regarding listening to your doctor. A doctor’s job is to provide information, advice, and treatment. His job is NOT to make decisions for you. Doctors sometimes make mistakes, or work off of old information, or simply choose things that are different from what you would want for yourself. The ultimate responsibility for your health, and your child’s health, is on you. Completely relying on someone else for your healthcare decisions, without educating yourself and thinking for yourself, is irresponsible.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of three times that a doctor or healthcare professional tried to give me (or my child) the wrong medication. Once, in what I can only assume was a mistake, an orderly in the hospital tried to DEMAND that I take pain medication that was contraindicated for pregnancy. (I was only 12 weeks, so didn’t look pregnant.) He would not listen when I explained that I was pregnant, and not even in pain, but only kept repeating that it was “doctor’s orders.” There was never an explanation for this, but I think he was in the wrong room.

Another time, a new pediatrician tried to prescribe my then 8yo daughter a medication to which she was allergic. Good thing I was paying attention!

Both of those times were simply mistakes, but if I had just followed “doctor’s orders” without knowing for myself what medications were or were not safe, there could have been serious consequences.

The worst time was the doctor who prescribed a medication for me that had a high risk of miscarriage, while I was pregnant. At first he simply told me it was safe, but later admitted that he simply felt that treating my condition was more important than whether I lost my baby. (His exact words were, “The baby isn’t my patient, you are. It’s not my job to keep the baby alive.”) It was a very serious condition, and a tricky ethical issue that I can see both sides of, but ultimately it should have been MY decision whether I risked my baby’s life. I chose not to take the medication, BTW, and 8 years later that baby and I are both completely healthy.

I’m grateful that I currently have a doctor who does not even try to make decisions for me. He gives me information, and advice, and asks what I would like to do. Most of the time, I take his advice. But if I’m uncomfortable with it, or uncertain, I look for more information. Luckily my husband works in a hospital, so I have access to lots of quality information, not just old wives’ tales or junk science passed along from other moms on message boards or blogs. It seems to me that Prof. Oster is attempting to make that kind of quality information more widely available, and I absolutely applaud her for it.

Quality healthcare comes from educated, involved patients working with trained healthcare providers to make evidence-based decisions. Not from blindly following “doctor knows best.”

When I was pregnant the first time, I read all of What to Expect, and reread part of it, especially the chapters that correlated exactly to my point in my pregnancy. I did everything I was supposed to. And then I lost the baby. My OB/GYN was was very matter-of-fact about it: It happens. It’s more common than you think. (Anyone else know it’s 1 in 4 pregnancies? I didn’t.) It is not your fault. You did nothing wrong.

And that was when I realized that it’s pretty much out of your hands. Your baby is going to make it or your baby is not. (Assuming common sense here. I’m not advocating drinking like a fish or taking up a crack habit.) So, should I eat well during pregnancy? Yes. But realize that a lot of women are ralphing up half of what they eat–and their babies are fine. My cheese pizza is probably fine, especially since I really, really want it. Can I ride on the ferris wheel? Seems no less dangerous than riding in my car. Is WORRY going to help this pregnancy? Not in the least. So let it go.

I had two friends whose babies died at 34+ weeks in utero. Devastating. Preemies born that late are highly likely to make it. In both cases, the umbilical cord became entangled and prolapsed, cutting off all supply of everything from the mother. That was not something the mothers could have anticipated, nor was it something they could have prevented. Following all the steps doesn’t give any guarantees. It also doesn’t mean that if only they’d done something different those children would be alive.

The good news is that, although it wasn’t easy, it seems like science has discovered an antidote to What to Expect When You’re Expecting – http://www.amazon.ca/Lets-Panic-About-Babies-Worthwhile/dp/031264812X

Oh, dear – my two favorite purveyors of sanity, together in one blog post! You both are heroes of mine. Thank you for fighting the good fight!

LOVE LOVE LOVE this message. I did everything you’re not supposed to do while pregnant:

Drank coffee
Drank alcohol almost daily
Dyed my hair (myself! poison through the scalp AND the fingers!)
Ate cold cuts
Ate sushi OFTEN
Drank real eggnog

And everything else that is terribly, terribly risky.

The result? My child is only in PERFECT health (injuries only so far, no illnesses) and scored 98th percentile nationally on a school readiness (IQ) test. And temperament-wise, she will definitely NOT be an adolescent at age 25. She’s practically grown up now at age five.

If giving up my wine with dinner would have gotten her that one remaining point up to 99th percentile, it wouldn’t have been worth it.

That is why I HATE the “what to expect” books! They will give you high blood pressure all by themselves!

I’m now 10 weeks pregnant with my 2nd child, and even when I was pregnant with my daughter in 2011, I was super laid back as first-time pregnant mom. AND my daughter had taken us 2 yrs to conceive too, so it wasn’t like I didn’t fully appreciate the pregnancy either.

With both pregnancies so far, about the only “rule” I’ve followed is that I stay away from high-mercury fish. Oh and not smoking, but I wasn’t a smoker anyway.

A couple months before I got pregnant this time, I did have an early miscarriage (at 5 weeks), and so I do know what it’s like to wonder if you could have done anything at all wrong to cause it, but I also know that these things just happen and I’ve had to trust that there was nothing I could have done either day.

So thanks for the post! I agree with it! 🙂

@pentamom: At least when my kids were born (13.5 and 11 years ago, more or less), they were seriously pushing the idea that you shouldn’t feed your kids solid food until 6 months. If they’re still doing that, it would explain a lot.

I think that it is good to remember that as little as 200 or so years ago, it was much safer to drink hard cider, wine or beer than it was water. Most every one had a drink of watered wine or such at most every meal. Including pregnant women. Who knows, maybe the babies were a few points lower in IQ points than they would have been if the mother had safe drinking water. But probably, if a woman wants a half glass of wine with her Christmas meal, it probably isn’t going to hurt the baby. Even having a small serving every day would be less than what most drank during Colonial America. Drinking to get drunk often during pregnancy…no, please don’t do that. THAT is not good.

M Taylor – Your kids don’t have problems because their mother had an occasional glass of wine while pregnant or even a daily glass of wine. They have problems because their mother regularly got drunk while pregnant.

My aunt has fetal alcohol syndrome. Yes, my grandmother drank excessively while pregnant. It was usual for the time to drink some alcohol during pregnancy, but she drank to get drunk regularly. Now my grandmother, with her own revision of history told to herself so not to make her today self feel as guilty, will tell you that she only had an occasionally drink, but my mother (who was 10) will tell it very different. And no, my grandmother was/is not a horrible person. She is a wonderful, caring woman who was living in a time when people didn’t know the damage excessive alcohol could do during pregnancy. And, on the other side of the coin, she was also not an alcoholic who drank alcohol every day so there is a point when even social drinking is dangerous but it is not occasional or one glass a day.

Considering until the 1980s women were not told not to drink during pregnancy and many did, if an occasional glass of wine truly caused problems, those problems would be the norm for behavior in society rather an a syndrome. Considering people in many countries still have wine or beer with dinner while pregnant today, if even a daily glass of alcohol caused problems, those problems would be the norm for behavior in those countries rather than a syndrome. Considering that many women don’t even realize they are pregnant for much of the first trimester and drink, sometimes even get drunk, if an occasional or daily drink was the problem, those problems would be highly prevalent. But they aren’t. Feral alcohol syndrome is rare, not the general state of being it would be if any alcohol consumption caused it.

Of course there are things you shouldn’t do when you are pregnant. Listening blindly to doctors and books is one of them.

My kids’ birth moms were poor, single, working women in a developing country where women of their status typically have no real access to health care, internet research, or often even literacy. My kids are pretty OK. Are they 100% perfect? No, but neither is any kid I’ve met in the USA. One of them is intellectually gifted and the other is pretty talented physically. This is sort of my sanity check when I hear people going nuts about every little detail of prenatal / infant care.

Yes, there are things that are really dangerous to an embryo/fetus/infant/child. If we could focus on just those few things, it seems there would be a greater likelihood of moms being aware of and willing to avoid those few things.

“Just wait until they get older and they just can’t calm down as well as the other children. Wait until they seem to be more depressed and don’t know how to utilize the tools the counselors give them. Just wait. Your little prodigy who suffers no effects of your “occasional” glass of wine has been hurt — beyond what you can see — but they have been hurt and damaged.”

Is 22.5 old enough? None of my kids (12-22)has any of the issues you raise, nor any other significant health or neuro issues of any kind. I frankly don’t remember which times I drank while pregnant and which times I didn’t (, but it was never more than genuinely “occasional” in any case, unless you want to count the last few weeks with #2 where I had a half glass of Manischewitz nearly every evening because it was the only thing that dealt with my heartburn (yeah, I know, wine isn’t supposed to work but try living in my pregnant body for a month and telling it that.)

Donna is right — FAS and FAE are not caused by an “occasional” glass of alcohol, if we’re really using the word “occasional” appropriately. And contrary to some of the anti-alcohol propaganda out there, not everybody is incapable of accurately reporting their level of usage and some people really do only drink “occasionally” and in small amounts.

I agree kids are going to have issues however and where ever they are born, but alcohol issues (whether we want to admit they are there or not) are 100% avoidable. Why don’t we give our kids a break and not expose them to this in the first place.

As far as drinking during pregnancy, this study has been lauded for its thoroughness and scope. Children of occasional drinkers score better on cognitive tests than teetotallers. http://news.discovery.com/human/health/alcohol-drinking-pregnant-women.htm
Perhaps doctors don’t share this info because telling moms they can drink a little will give some a license to binge drink.

On another note, a colleague of mine questioned during my last pregnancy if I should be drinking my coffee that morning. I wanted to retort that it was so noble that she was an OB who decided to take a pay cut to teach high school with the rest of us. I just told her my doctor said it was okay.

“Perhaps doctors don’t share this info because telling moms they can drink a little will give some a license to binge drink.”

I think a lot of doctor advice is like this. Don’t spank, because some sickos will beat, kill, and maim their kids. Don’t potty train before preschool, because some parents can’t handle the frustration. Don’t be strategic about what your heavy kid is eating, because some kids get malnourished and some develop eating disorders. Vaccinate for chickenpox, because one in x million kids dies of it. Rear face your kid’s car seat until he’s in middle school, because 1 in 50 million properly restrained kids will be in an unavoidable, head-on, high-speed accident where it matters. Don’t let your infant have a blankie or teddy bear, because 1 in xx million kids get SIDS which *might* have something to do with blankies (but probably doesn’t). Ugh. Then they wonder why many of us are skeptical of what the medical profession tells us.

Hooray, someone playing the same statistics game that I do!

I had an ectopic pregnancy after my second child. I joined an internet forum for women who had suffered the same thing. My overwhelming impression was how scared most of them were to try again in case the same thing happened. Whereas I looked up the statistics, realised that was unlikely (possible, but unlikely), and decided I couldn’t be that unlucky.

I wasn’t. (In fact, after I had my 3rd child, I went on to have fraternal twins, one from each ovary, despite the fact that I am missing my fallopian tube on the left side – how’s that for statistical improbability?!)

When I was pregnant with my first child (now nearly 11), I lived in the UK. I distinctly remember my first appointment with the midwife, going through all the check boxes of what I needed to know, and I was allowed one unit of alcohol a day. That was the advice being dispensed by the NHS! Of course, I was only an occasional drinker, so I probably didn’t even get to one a week.

I remember being pregnant (this time in the USA) with #2 (now nearly 9), and one of my friends was also pregnant. We were both about 8 months pg when we went out for pre-Christmas girly dinner. The waiter, when he came to pour wine for the group, automatically reached to take our glasses away. Both my friend and I objected strenuously, and made him pour us a glass. He was very concerned.

The other thing I did a lot of while pregnant was take medication. Initially I tried not to, but the one day I nearly vomited on the train on the way home from work due to a cracking migraine, I took my usual meds and thought, “If this does something to the baby, I don’t care because I would rather die than be in this much pain.” (If you’ve had a migraine, you’ll probably understand this sentiment.) Of course, nothing happened to the baby except that she turned out to be academically gifted and talented at sport. I suppose I could blame her lack of singing ability on the medication, but I could equally blame it on her father 😉

“The other thing I did a lot of while pregnant was take medication. Initially I tried not to, but the one day I nearly vomited on the train on the way home from work due to a cracking migraine, I took my usual meds and thought, “If this does something to the baby, I don’t care because I would rather die than be in this much pain.” (If you’ve had a migraine, you’ll probably understand this sentiment.) Of course, nothing happened to the baby except that she turned out to be academically gifted and talented at sport. I suppose I could blame her lack of singing ability on the medication, but I could equally blame it on her father ;)”

IMO the medical profession really needs to address this. You will NOT convince me that the minor, unproven risk to a fetus from a mild anti-nausea drug is a bigger concern than the overall decline in maternal health caused by untreated HG, or even ordinary morning sickness, recurring migraines, and similar issues. Malnutrition and anemia can be real issues even if the HG isn’t bad enough for hospitalization or the kind of “extreme” cases where they actually will deign to FINALLY give you something.

If I had to do it all over again, I would definitely self-medicate with the occasional Benadryl to get some solid food in. My first OB gave me something (I believe it amounted to a strong antihistamine that just made me drowsy enough to relax and stop being overwhelmed by the nausea) because I wound up in the ER once for HG, but with the subsequent pregnancies I just got a lot of advice about crackers, weak tea, and ginger, which provided a tiny degree of relief but didn’t ultimately permit me to eat any better or function normally for the four month stretches during which I was plagued by sickness.

When an aunt of mine was pregnant again after her second child, it didn’t go well and the doctor told her that if she didn’t want a miscarriage, she should stay in bed for like the next 6-7 months.
Being a very level-headed farmer’s daughter and already the mother of two girls who both had had a minor birth defect, she refused. She just said, if I miscarry, then that’s nature deciding there’s something wrong with this foetus.
That was that. They remained a family of four.

It seems that a few here really need a new doctor. I may not agree with my doctors about everything, but if I viewed them as someone who’s doorstep I don’t want to darken, I’d sure as hell find a new doctor.

@Pentamom: Among actual medical professionals, the attitude towards anti-nausea medications are changing. A couple years ago, there was a truly massive study showing Zofran has no detectable risks, and doctors are much less reluctant to prescribe it, especially when morning sickness threatens to cause dehydration or malnutrition. Finally people are beginning to get over the spectre of thalidomide.

However, some folks who AREN’T medical professionals will still judge women very harshly for taking anti-nausea medicines during pregnancy. Me, I just smile and nod at them, and happily nibble my Zofran.

Regarding the “radiation vest” when using a computer–that warning probably dates back to the days of CRT (cathode ray tube) displays. Today’s flat panels do not have even the possibility of harmful radiation. The old CRTs, which were the same technology as the TV sets of the last century, could generate X-rays if the secondary accelerator voltage was high enough, and I think this was only a hazard in TV sets that were 25 inches or more, and possibly early color TVs. When this possibility was discovered, TV manufacturers were required to use radiation-absorbing glass in front of picture tubes in larger TVs. Note that this information is from memories of 45 years as an electronic tech, and some of the details may need correction, but the main message is–don’t fear the flat panel video display.

You want to know the last one? A friend of mine was told two weeks ago that she shouldn’t caress her tummy too much, because that might provoke contractions and she could induce labour too soon!

JaneW, I’m glad to hear that. I forget that it’s been over a decade since I’ve really been in touch with the OB world so things may be changing and I wouldn’t realize it.

I do not listen to celebrities, I listen to my brain, my personal observations, and reliable research. Aside from all the vax hype I would not even know who Jenny McCarthy was.

The last time I checked, there have been zero deaths from measles in recent decades. So the argument that doctors must be sad watching all those poor babies die doesn’t fly wrt MMR. With respect to pertussis, yes. Like I said, not all vaxes are equal. But that said, the sheer number of vaxes they try to push on our babies without even a brief parent-doctor discussion is enough to set my sirens off. It’s counterproductive.

I used this author’s fact based research to determine what to do about prenatal testing. (While she did not discuss the harmony21 screening, I was left in a situation where two tests did not get enough DNA). I talked to my doctor about the importance of this testing and made an informed decision to cancel the CVS when my ultrasound came back so well. Between that and the bloodwork, my daughter has the same chances of having Downs as a child of a woman in her early 20s.

Give a woman facts and not guilt, you make her empowered.

SKL – There haven’t been any deaths from measles in the US. However, I’m sure you noted that I said hospitalizations and deaths and about 40% of children in the US who do contract measles are hospitalized with complications of said measles.

I do agree that all vaccines are not created equal. I do think that kids are way over-vaccinated today. Not because the vaccines are harmful but because the illness that we have now started vaccinating against are, except in the rarest of cases, little more than annoyances and there is no reason to prevent their existence other than a general dislike of being sick. That doesn’t mean that I think we should change the ones that the anti-vaccine people are generally up in arms over (MMR for example), but that we should exclude many that are now considered mandatory (chicken pox for example).

As for observations, I admit that I am HIGHLY skeptical of claims by people who have seen vaccine injuries (plural). While I certainly cannot claim to know everyone in the world, I’ve lived many places in both the US and abroad, know many people and spend much of my life digging extensively into the medical/mental health histories of hundreds of people a year in order to find anything that would explain why they do the crazy things they do. I have in my life met a grand total of 0 people with actual, diagnosed vaccine injuries. I have met a grand total of one family with a single member with an actual, diagnosed vaccine injury. I have on the other hand met many people who either claim to have a a child with a vaccine injury but get cagey when asked if it has ever been diagnosed or who claim to know someone with a vaccine injury but cannot give any real details when pushed. Unless you are getting tainted MMR vaccines in wherever it is you live, I call BS on you knowing several people with actual, verifiable vaccine injuries.

Since even different states don’t immunize at the same time and in the same combination, I don’t doubt that there are substantial variations around the world. It is, however, universally agreed upon by reputable doctors that (a) all children should be vaccinated barring a genuine, identifiable health issue, (b) vaccines are less harmful that the diseases, and (c) there is no autism/MMR connection.

If you read the product insert for MMR vax (obviously prepared by pro-vax people), you will see that 5% of kids who get the vax had bad enough results to have them officially reported to the government. There are many others that are not reported to the government databases, for obvious reasons. I mean, you would have to get your pediatrician to agree that the vaccine caused the problem, and that’s going to be a push, which most of us don’t have time for.

The person I know most closely with a vax injury is my younger sister. She became very sick for 6 months after having MMR/DPT/polio vaxes together (which is common practice) and she developed epilepsy, which is a known complication of the MMR vax.

I know others who are confident that their child has issues from vaxes, whether or not they can get the pro-vax industry to listen to them. Given all the obvious bias (financial and otherwise), just because doctors turn a deaf ear to these concerns (after the fact) does not mean the concerns are not valid. The idea that every parent with such a claim is some kind of lunatic is ridiculous. These are ordinary parents who observed something frightening that transformed their child immediately after the vax. While I am aware of the back-and-forth research over autism and MMR, I am also aware that the CDC acknowledges that neurological damage has been linked with the MMR in a significant number of cases. They don’t tell people that, though. For some reason they don’t want parents to know there are risks – which is ironic considering that the whole point of a vax is to address a small risk of catastrophic illness. Knowing the facts simply does not generate trust in the industry.

When I took my kids to their 1yr check-up, the doc asked if my kids had had eggs, and I said no. Then he proceeded to go get the MMR vax to administer (without even discussing it with me first). I made him stop and give me the fact sheets so I could weigh in on the decision. Well, right there it says MMR must never be given to anyone with an egg allergy. My kid could have had an allergy, but the doctor was in such a rush to vax he would have harmed my kid rather than wait until we were sure. BTW in my state there has not even been 1 case of measles in recent years, so it’s not like he was trying to fight an epidemic. :/ BTW even Dr. Sears recommends delaying the MMR until after age 2. That should be the norm in my opinion. I’m not sure why that’s such a controversial suggestion.

My parents’ whole generation had measles, as did their parents, and their parents, bla bla bla. As did many of my friends from foreign countries. If it was such a terrible disease, the human species would have died out by now, instead of overpopulating the earth ;). MMR isn’t even pushed in many developed countries the way it is here. I believe I’ve heard that about UK and Japan, for instance. People can get the vax but it isn’t a big crisis if folks decline.

So what we have here is a battle of the hysterics. Hysterics over the small risk of developing a disease that usually is not deadly, vs. hysterics over the small risk of vax injury. Of course only the latter are called on their overreaction.

I will never understand why it can’t simply be a choice made by parents, many of whom will vax, some of whom will not. No politics and exaggerated emotions necessary.

The health professional my family now uses does not recommend vaxes, nor do many health philosophies around the world. The fact that educated people take it for granted that “everyone agrees on this” is telling. It really couldn’t be further from the truth.

SKL- my niece in law was born with Downs and a bad heart defect that needed her mother to be at a hospital in another state to deliver. Prenatal testing can save a life.

And yes, I would abort if the child had such a serious life long defect. I know what I can handle and what I can’t. And I have the right to know about my child.

Of course there is nothing wrong with healthy children, but the fact is, you get what you get. Even perfect genes and perfect behavior don’t guarantee anything. Not one thing. That’s the problem with what is essentially a eugenics mindset. Well, one of the problems. The other problem is the irony of us imperfect humans thinking we have a clue what perfect looks like.

Again, these are first-world problems. Women who are in a position to worry about such things aren’t spending their entire day scrounging up enough food to actually stay alive and keep a fetus alive, or prevent malnutrition, the way millions of women have to do in this world. Therefore, we are told to worry that every bite of non-organic, dairy, fish, meat, and salted snack is going to do harm. More than 20 years ago, pregnant with my first child, I was given a copy of “What to Expect,” and after realizing that in order to fulfill their so-called healthy quota of grains, fruits, vegetables, and protein EVERY DAY for nine months, I wouldn’t have the time, money, or energy to do anything else, including work or sleep. I gave up on the book at that point. “What to Expect the First Year” is just as bad…so you can worry if your child isn’t on schedule with development, not eating correctly, or about to come down with rare but fatal diseases.

“the human species would have died out by now, instead of overpopulating the earth”

Well, maybe not died out, but certainly wouldn’t have become so… ahem… “successful.”

The way I see it, there is a huge irony here: what were once real hazards for children that caused death or paralysis in childhood have been all but eradicated with vaccines, antibiotics, and pasteurization. And seat belts!!

So now, children don’t die. Okay, they do, but it’s become very rare. And along with the rarity of death of children comes longer life spans for adults, and pretty soon, the last thing we need to worry about is the individual death of one person, from any cause.

The real worry is what to do with all the people who are alive and consuming, and all their waste and emissions. I can pretty much guarantee that all the hand-wringing done over each bite of food or drop of liquid a pregnant woman ingests we in the über-consuming world obsess over now will seem like quite a joke compared to what may be coming in terms of crop failures, food supply interruption, rising temperatures, extreme weather events, and the like.

So. We’re so successful we’re killing ourselves. Hooray.

We have targetted vaccinations in my state. Drives me nuts that I work in with high risk of contact with certain diseases that can be vaccinated against, husband gets the vaccinations for free due to who his grandparents were, and I have to fork out hundreds of dollars to have them (and often argue with the doctors to have them – “Not on your schedule!” “Yes, but do you know how many members of the community I serve have this easily spread disease? It may be rare in the city, it’s not rare where I work!”

One thing about vaccinations that makes me wary is all the combination ones. Makes it more difficult to choose some vaccinations, and avoid others for whatever reason.

“Of course there is nothing wrong with healthy children, but the fact is, you get what you get. Even perfect genes and perfect behavior don’t guarantee anything. Not one thing. That’s the problem with what is essentially a eugenics mindset. Well, one of the problems. The other problem is the irony of us imperfect humans thinking we have a clue what perfect looks like.”

Of course you get what you get, there is simply no way you can influence everything. But now you’re shifting the discussion to the far other end of the spectrum. I was talking about avoiding syndroms that causes the kid to die before the age of five, about Huntington’s, about severely disabled children who will never learn to walk (or move themselves around in general), talk (or sign, or point at symbols…), or even swallow on their own, whose autism and low IQ causes sensory overload all the time so they bang their heads against the wall.
That kind of thing.

Calling avoiding that striving for perfection sounds a bit… odd to me. Avoiding black doesn’t leave you with white, it leaves you with white and a gazillion shades of grey.

@SKL: OK, so forget I mentioned toddler-killing syndroms – that still leaves Huntington and many other severe conditions with severe effects on the quality of life.
Anyway, you objected to pre-natal testing and said “Wish we could go back to the days when some things were meant to be / not meant to be”, which sounds anti-choice, while I’m very glad that people have a choice these days (also if that means *not* having such a child).

Have fun with your DS student. (Eh – they are more likely to be heart patients, but vegetables??! I miss a lot of grey here.)

@baby-paramedic – am very surprised with your situation – that sounds like a real pain! I thought you were Australian, and hence would have a similar system to what we have here. I’m pretty sure here medical professionals and other such get their immunisations free. Seems a bit rough that you have to pay to protect yourself from what amount to job risks…

Am glad at least one of you (husband) doesn’t have to pay, but still seems wrong 🙁

@hineata – it depends what health district you are in. Some are really proactive. Mine just covers the flu. I would rather the flu than TB (I don’t get the flu shot anyway). Husband hadn’t even had them before I started working in this area. As soon as I realized the incidence rates (one in three pregnant women with hepA for example), I made sure he got all the jabs (I had had them already, having lived overseas). I encouraged my colleagues to demand the same vaccinations, but there is a bit of apathy, and a belief about being bullet-proof.
But, my first priority is keeping my family safe, and I can’t really do that if I bring them home TB to play with (nits were bad enough!)