Welcome to (You’re Doing It Wrong!) Parenting

I gotta say, I am with her on everything except the smoking. Coming from a family that smoked “Outside” I gotta tell you, that it still lingers on you, your clothing, everything, no matter how much you wash your hands. I eventually ended up with Asthma and a sever allergy to any kind of smoke, most likely from that. Most smokers don’t realize just how much the smoke lingers, they just can’t smell it anymore, they get so used to the smell. And any kind of second hand smoke has been proven to harm children. It is not just to try and scare you.

I love what you do here, Lenore, but the smoking thing is a line that cannot be crossed. It’s something that cannot be tolerated and for those who think it’s okay to even smoke outside are dazed and confused. It gets in your clothes, on your skin, in your hair and “magically” follows you around all day.

Don’t be an asshat, give it a shake and wake up people.

The best part about smokers is that they’re killing themselves off before the rest of us.

Eventually, they’ll be extinct.

Darwin’s magic personified.

@ jrmiss86 – Just to be clear, asthma is a disease that has a genetic origin. Yes, smoke triggers symptoms in people who ALREADY have the disease. It does NOT cause asthma.

They are following the guidelines suggested by the National Cancer Institute for eliminating exposure of secondhand smoke. It sounds like they are acknowledging the REAL risk, and taking the suggested precautions. Why should they go beyond that?

Ugh, it does seem a bit over-the-top. And don’t get me started on the “if your baby sleeps on it’s belly she will DIE” thing (as a matter of fact, my 8-week old is currently sleeping on her belly right behind me). It’s worth researching, I’ve been wanting to submit this about it for a while: http://babyfromthebeginning.blogspot.com/2010/07/belly-sleeping-and-sids.html

I saw something like this on UK TV. A couple with two boys with glue ear were asked by a ear, nose and throat consultant whether anyone smoked in the house. When the father said he did but always went outside the specialist said that “unfortunately that makes no difference”. He would have to wash his clothes everytime or have no contact with his children for 2 hours after each cigarette. He was apparently causing glue ear by having cigarette smoke on his clothes (or something) What? So you might as well just smoke inside then?

Advice like this doesn’t make children safer, it simply stops people taking any advice seriously or stops them seeking it in the first place. I very quickly learned not to go to health visitors and other experts with concerns about child rearing. I remember asking a dental community advisor for help because I was having trouble getting my toddler to cooperate to have his teeth brushed. But instead of suggesting any practical tips I simply got a lecture about letting his carer give him juice. “There’s no point brushing his teeth if he’s going to have juice” were her actual words.

A tale of two doctors: When my brothers and I were little rugrats we went to a typical GP. First of all, he smoked. (You could smoke in hospital rooms at the time.) Every kid from that era knew the drill: Go into the examination room, shuck off all your clothes and don’t be shy no mater who walked into the room. One time I came in with a fever and a very sore throat and was told that, yep, I had the flu. The treatment? A friendly pat on the behind and the advice to “ride it out, cowboy.” He gave my mom some meds to relieve some of the pain in my throat, and a few days later I was back to terrorizing the neighborhood.

When my daughter was small, her trip to the pediatrician was very different. Fully clothed, a full medical and personal questionnaire for both her and the attending parent, and enough meds to build a pharmacy. Neither my wife nor I were pleased: We don’t believe in a pill for every occasion. It took a while, but we found another doctor who was more interested in making sure we had a healthy child rather than supporting the pharmaceutical industry.

Like my mama told me, you gotta shop around.

Never, ever, in my life did I think I’d be defending smokers. I hate cigarette smoke and have been known to detect it from a passing car with the windows up. One of the best things that has happened during my lifetime is the growth of smoke-free places, even bowling alleys and pubs in Ireland! Those who’ve never experienced it cannot imagine the misery of being cooped up in an airplane with a bunch of smokers — even after planes were divided into “smoking” and “non-smoking” sections. (Yeah, I know. Sharing the same air and the same ventilation system. But it really was an improvement, albeit insufficient, over sitting next to a smoker.)

Still. I have to laugh, wryly, at today’s hysteria. In the same era that we look back at so nostalgically for its free-range childhoods, nearly everyone smoked. Everywhere. Doctors and nurses smoked. Teachers smoked, though mostly not in the classroom, as I recall. Even some preachers smoked. It was inescapable, and it was Not Good.

But it wasn’t the end of the world. Maybe my mother’s smoking from my time in utero until I was 12 stunted my growth. Then again, I have two short grandmothers, and my sister, born after my parents quit smoking, is as short as I am. Maybe I’ll have lung problems in the future. Who knows what effect the ubiquitous smoke had on us? But most of us survived, and even thrived. Maybe it was all that fresh air from being allowed to play outside so much.

The fact that doctors are “mandatory reporters” of possible child abuse makes such a questionnaire not only invasive but dangerous to answer if smoking outside, leaving a child to use the bathroom, and putting him on his tummy are adjudged abusive. It’s one thing to inform patients … quite another to inform onthem.

Myrium, glue ear is caused by a build-up of gunk inside the middle ear cavity. It sounds innocuous, but it’s the most likely reason that children under five will end up on the operating table, often unnecessarily.

Medically known as otitis media with effusion, glue ear is different from acute otitis media, which is a short-term ear infection. (Antibiotics are the usual treatment).

Both involve inflammation of the middle ear (‘otitis media’), both involve a build-up of fluid, and both are common in babies and young children. Four out of five children will get at an ear infection at some stage.

But unlike glue ear, acute otitis media is accompanied by short-lived pain and fever. Acute otitis media can sometimes turn into glue ear, or the reverse can happen: glue ear can lead to an acute infection.

Infections (such as a cold or flu) are thought to contribute to glue ear, but sometimes glue ear just happens for no apparent reason. Glue ear may also result from an allergy, though doctors disagree on this.

The reason young children are most vulnerable to glue ear is because their Eustachian tubes (the passage between the middle ear and throat) are short and narrow, so can get blocked easily. Fluid secreted in the middle ear is trapped, rather than simply draining into the throat.

Glue ear is a build-up of fluid in the middle ear.

Although all children are susceptible to ear infection, children exposed to lots of other children in group day care or at home are at significantly more risk. Children from lower socio-economic groups are also at high risk.

Most cases of glue ear will clear up by itself.

I have to say I’m with you on everything but the smoking… Like people said above, if you are a smoker (or have recently been one) you really just don’t know how much it lingers. A young baby lives with their face 2″ from your clothes. To expect the smoke to magically dissipate because someone is outside is crazy.

You should feel comfortable enough with your doctor to be able to answer the questions truthfully, and defend your answers. For example, our son slept on his stomach, and he wasn’t having it any other way. But the doctors job is to recommend what is best for your childs health based on the most recent studies & scientific knowledge.

You as a parent have the right to disregard the doctor, but don’t fault the doctor for doing their job.

Let’s all practice the “smile and nod” technique. Now that i’m the parent of my third kiddo, I’ve perfected it when I hear hogwash. I have also learned the correct answers to invasive questions, even if they’re complete lies. Most are of no medical significance and lead to unwanted and unneeded parenting advice.

I find it interesting that even on this free range site, posters just can’t help but give advice about sleeping positions and such. Must be in our blood to know it all. Unless someone asks for help, let’s keep it to ourselves.

The questionnaire asked if you left your child alone for a few minutes? Seriously?! Do they expect you to sleep in the same room with him until he’s 18 then?

Alright. Sarah O I will give you that Asthma has a genetic componant. Yes I was most likely genetically predisposed to Asthama. But it was the smoke that triggered the onsett. I could have, and most likely would have gone my whole life without this disease had I not been exposed to the smoke. And the smoke allergy is directly related to the smoke.

To others who are saying that
1. I was around smoke as a child and I am fine. That is great, but that doesn’t mean all children will be, in fact the science tells us that more often than not, children will be harmed in some way by second hand smoke, even smoke that lingers on clothing. That is not fear mongering that is basic scientific fact.

2. Well in the “good old days” everybody smoked. Just because we did it in the good old days doesn’t make it right. We didn’t use seat belts or car seats in the good old days Does that mean we shouldn’t use them now. In the good old days, people fed babies cows milk if they didn’t breast feed, does that me we should do that now. My understanding of of Free range is that we are not ignoring the basic safety aspects, but rather we don’t want to live our lives based on fear. I am saying that any kind of second hand smoke, even smoke that lingers on clothing is a basic safety issue.

And as I said before I also agree that everything else she was asked is way beyond what is reasonable, but I do believe the smoking thing is not acceptable.

There are only so many hours in the day, so I would rather spend them worrying about well-established safety risks rather than controversial concepts such as third-hand smoke.

what about horrible perfume that lingers on clothes? or body soaps? or laundry detergent? or, or, or….

i’m not aware of any evidence that an ODOR can *cause* asthma… exacerbate pre-existing problems, sure — but lots of things can, not just the smell of cigarette smoke

Thanks, Jennifer, for the link to your post about belly sleeping. That’s another big issue, though I don’t want to start it here, just to thank you.

I chose my pediatricians based on the criteria that they be less paranoid than me. As a first time mom, I knew I was going to be nervous. My kids are adopted, so I already had to prove to 235 different authorities that I was a cross between Mother Theresa and Mary Poppins and that I could stop bullets with my teeth. So I didn’t want some pediatrician telling me that my kid was already doomed because he didn’t have all organic food before birth and he wasn’t born during a full moon in an aquatic ceremony. There was nothing I could change about his birth and first 6 months. He was born in a 3rd world country where they still use leaded gas, he slept on his stomach because that’s how they do it down there, and he was innoculated for damn near everything 12 times over because TB and other things are rampant down there. Fortunately, I found a South American doctor. When I was concerned at his low birth weight, she said (drawing herself up to her full 5 foot height) “We’re all tiny down there! Don’t worry about it!” She was awesome. When she retired, we hunted around to find another just like her – vigilant about what was important, relaxed about everything else.

My mom quit smoking for her pregnancy with my brother, and he was born 4 weeks premature and he was 7lbs! The rest of us, she smoked during, and we were 9-10lbs full term. She smoked in the house until we were teenagers. Only my brother has asthma (probably from being born preterm).

My husband smoked for some years, never in front of our daughter. We went to her first checkup and one of the nurses said, “Does someone smoke in the house?” “Never in the house.” “She smells a little smoky.” All in a neutral, not accusing tone. He started washing his hands neurotically.

He finally quit because despite his best efforts, she did see him smoking sometimes, and as a toddler he caught her with a straw between her fingers, pretending to smoke.

It bothers me that a medical professional would lie to a patient in order to get them to do what they want. It’s unethical and insulting.

Robin – uh no…but I make sure that when I work with household toxins – bleach, ammonia, weed killer, pesticides, that I shower and change clothes immediately and leave my shoes outside. Why wouldn’t I do the same for smoking?

After my dad smokes, he showers and brushes his teeth and when he comes to visit me, I still can smell it on him.

I love the post, the author, and the point she’s making, but I still think smoking is dumb.

Weren’t there some studies a while back correlating asthma to a too-clean environment in the first few years of a child’s life?

I’m a father of a wonderful (free range) 9 year old son. I smoke about a half pack a day (down from 2 packs a day several years ago). Despite this, I don’t see myself as being a bad parent.

Like Esmeralda’s husband, I don’t smoke in the house. I don’t smoke in the car when my son is present. I’m well aware of the health problems that come hand in hand with smoking, and have been trying to quit for nearly ten years (though obviously not trying hard enough).

If there’s one thing I’m tired of, it’s all smokers being classified as bad people. I’m active and involved in my community, involved in local politics, have spent my life working in education, and also happen to smoke. It’s not something that defines me; it’s merely something that I do because I enjoy. Most of my friends (artist-types) smoke too.

While I wish I had never started smoking some 30-odd years ago, I don’t see it as something that compromises my ability to be a loving and supportive parent. In fact, it’s led to several valuable discussions with my son about the nature of addiction and the psychology of advertising and pop culture. Several years ago, when teaching high school, a group of my students saw me smoking outside a local restaurant and promptly brought it up in class the next day. This led to a fascinating- and very honest- discussion of personal freedoms, health policy, and the like. I believe they came away from the class respecting me for my honesty about my imperfections.

As someone probably to the left of Bernie Sanders, I don’t find myself complaining about political correctness very much. However, I would call on people to give some thought to the fact that smokers are not automatically bad parents. Smoking is an (albeit enjoyable) imperfection. We all have our imperfections, and so will our children. Perhaps we should be more forgiving of flawed personal habits and work together to fix the things that are more seriously damaging to our children.

There has actually been a fair amount of research showing that “third hand smoke” (which is the stuff that clings to your skin, hair, and clothes) is dangerous to others and to especially children. The skin is our largest organ and we can absorb an amazing amount of toxins through it. A baby’s skin is even more delicate and permeable than an adults and therefore able to absorb toxins more easily. If your husband really doesn’t want to quit please at least get him a “smoking jacket” of sorts to wear over his clothes when he goes outside. That way he doesn’t have to change every time he comes inside but your son will still be protected from contact with the residue on his clothing.

Off-topic, but I thought you might like to see this article on recess in winter:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2011-01-18-winter-recess_N.htm

That little boy looks healthy and happy to me.

As for the photo caption, I think it would have been funny if that WAS a cigarette in his hand. When my son was still an infant, we snapped a few shots of him holding an unlit cigarette with a can of beer in front of him purely to get under the skin of our relatives who seem to have traded in their senses of humour for SUVs and houses in the suburbs.

Anyone who thinks that a parent would actually allow a six month old to smoke and drink is just plain nuts.

Recently, the term ‘third hand smoke’ was coined in an article the journal Pediatrics and reported on in the news. As a result, after I found I had bought a 2nd hand dresser that smelled of smoke, late one night I fretted (my son was less than a year old) and started to do the research. Once I followed “third hand smoke” back to its source, I found that the report was in fact on trying to convince parents to stop smoking because of theoretical dangers (not in fact researched dangers) of ‘third hand smoke’. Scientific American points this out:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-third-hand-smoke

Now, I happen to think the smell of cigarette smoke is really, really nasty (all the rest of my family smoked while I was growing up), and I don’t *like* it. However, without some kind of actual serious *study* of third-hand-only smoke exposure, there’s no evidence to support the statements.

While I like my pediatrician’s practice (they are nicely laid back), getting the handouts from the American Academy of Pediatrics makes me crazy because I try to find out the research– or even statistics– behind them; and in the ones that make me suspicious (such as warnings to check playground equipment to make sure it’s not hazardously hot) there is only anecdotes if anything. Other ones are solidly supported by evidence. This is maddening to me.

Unfortunately, doctors can’t read all the research out there on everything, and like everyone else, sometimes they just read the news or an abstract elsewhere–or practice guidelines– and take them as gospel.

I’ve had to ‘talk back’ to both my obstetrician and my pediatrician each *once* about my concerns and their handling of them; while some doctors will blow you off, other ones will be responsive to you.
If the way a doctor handles your kid– or your concerns, or your family — is problematic, please, please discuss it with them. Even if you choose to change practices, at least they have feedback that may make them less willing to impose on the next person.

I agree it’s hard to tease out the crazy from the prudent. But you can’t let some extreem reactions push you too far in the other direction. The second hand smoking thing seems to be true in light of recent findings. The leaving the kid “for even a couple minutes” is over the top. The best we can do is try to keep a level head amidst the extremists. And that is really hard!

While second (or third) hand smoke is definitely bad, I would say it’s no worse for the development or exacerbation of asthma than fragrances.

My husband has asthma and we can’t even go to church on Mother’s Day because of all the scent!! Our honeymoon at a bed and breakfast was cut short by several days by a severe asthma attack brought on my large quantities of Glade Plug-Ins throughout the place. Some friends passed on clothes to us and we had to wash them multiple times to get the scent from their laundry detergent out. I get horrid migraines from the scented stuff as well.

So, while I truly despise cigarette smoke, I really don’t see how a doctor can condemn a parent who is TRYING to minimize smoke exposure for his infant…unless she is gonna also tell parents to stop washing their baby’s clothes in Dreft, tell grandmas and moms to quit wearing perfume, and people all over to stop cleaning the tub with Scrubbing Bubbles and mopping the floor with Pine-Sol!!

Yes, smoke does linger on clothes and in hair with many toxic chemicals that we don’t know the full effect of but I’m more concerned that the Dad doesn’t want to be around and healthy for his child. Yes, we all need to take risks and I think many pediatricians are very overbearing but smoking is just bad.

Smokers=satanists business has gotten out of hand. Thanks surely in part to – what was formally considered the personal choice of an adult, is now subjected to the “think of the children!” mentality.

Smoking inside the house where children are, supposedly a big no-no, fair enough. But I know parents who won’t even smoke at an outdoor BBQ if the kids are there. A smoker having a beer and not being able to enjoy a ciggy with? I mean, really. For me this is another example of today’s adults having no faith in children’s ability to decipher things for themselves.

Bill: from CA: a cancer journal for clinicians:
http://caonline.amcancersoc.org/cgi/content/full/60/4/203

Thirdhand Smoke Identified as Potent, Enduring Carcinogen
“Sleiman et al also examined nicotine and TSNA residues on hair, skin, and cotton; on dust in the trucks and in homes; and on furniture. In all examined contexts, they found elevated levels of nicotine and of 3 carcinogenic TSNAs—NNN, NNA, and NNK—ranging from nanograms per square meter to micrograms per square meter.”

I am kind of with Robin (the post before mine, when I’m doing this). There is this “stigma” attached to them that, frankly, is a bit nuts.

And by the way, I HATE the mess, and so does my wife. But to hear some people talk–and I don’t necessarily mean posters here–you’d think smokers are just a fingernail-thickness level above the Nazis.

Yes, when they’re blowing smoke in your face in a restaurant, or when you can smell it all over the place in such a place–yes, that’s aggravating. Yes I have no interest in being exposed to it, and especially not my kids. But when persons go outside, take a shower, get a manicure, and practically get showered-down with bleach and ammonia and people STILL aren’t satisfied, I think it goes overboard sometimes.

I find cellular phone users are treated that way, too. How many times do I hear people gripe about cellular phone usage almost anywhere in public, but other forms of noise are barely mentioned? I think it’s a type of witchhunt, frankly, and I don’t agree with it.

You see it, too, when persons grips about cellular phones & driving. Well how about applying makeup, eating-drinking, refereeing kids in the backseat, staring at an attractive woman jogging, tweaking with the stereo or climate control too much, fumbling in the glove box? Again, the “stigma” thing, a form of a witchhunt rankly.

And by the way, I have asthma. In my case, I don’t know if it’s genetic or what, I can tell you that I spent 10 years in Tucson AZ (yes, where Giffords was shot 2 weeks ago–that’s the place), and the whole time I was there, I never saw it come to the surface. There were HINTS of it at particular times prior to this in North Carolina (where I grew up), but in 10 years in the desert, not a hint of it ever.

I moved to east Texas 5 years ago, and it came storming back to the surface. It goes “dormant” and when it does I do what I want; when it’s “present,” I can barely even pick up a pencil without gasping for air. Fortunately, I FINALLY have been given medication which seems to control it.

But when it’s “dormant,” I can be around all forms of smoke etc, and nothing comes of it. When it’s “alive,” even bug spray can trigger it. I believe it’s allergy-based, as I also have allergy problems (I’ve been known, at times, to sneeze 12 times in a row!), and they, too, were dormant during my time in Arizona.

LRH

Esmerelda you Rock! for two reasons…1. You stood up for what you feel is best for your child and your family and 2. You were willing to put your story “out there’ despite the very real possibilities that people even on here would revert to telling you what you are doing wrong!
Ignore them. Follow your own instincts and keep making the choices that work for you, your son and your husband.
Sure, smoking is awful…but no household or home is 100% perfect. And you know what, people? There are people who are smoking crack and getting sloppy drunk in front of their kids. Children are abused, neglected…even have parents that *gasp* smoke in the same room with them. Get over yourselves. This is a family that makes CONSCIOUS decisions about what is THEIR best solution. Too many decisions about children are not so much decisions as reactions. Applaud the fact that their choices were deliberate instead of berating Esmerelda because it isn’t the decision YOU would make.
Oh, and Elissa. Really??? You SHOWER after using bleach? See, I would find that excessive, but since it is YOUR decision about YOUR life, and impacts me not at all, I will leave it to you. (Please, before you cite the hazards of chemicals, know that I am a chemistry teacher).

I can’t speak about the studies of 3rd hand smoke but must exist. Years ago I had a roommate who smoked. She smoked exclusively OUTSIDE the house, never inside. When I lived with her MY hair, clothes and skin REAKED of cigarette smoke. Even when I didn’t see her for days at a time, I stunk. I noticed it whenever I spent extended time in a non-smoking environment. I remember going to my grandmother’s and washing all the “clean” clothes that I brought with me shortly after I got there because they smelled so much like stale cigarette smoke. And this was strictly a platonic/separate rooms relationship so it’s not like I was hugging or sitting closely on the couch or sleeping in the same bed with her. You can’t tell me that babies, who are snuggling with their parents, don’t have the same effect.

That said, my parents smoked my entire life – inside, in cars – and I’m as healthy as a horse. I don’t think that parents who smoke are damning their children’s lives but I have no interest in being exposed or having my child exposed to that disgusting smell on a regular basis.

I haven’t read through all of the 67 comments, a few of them were just too rude to read to make it worth my time – but I will give a shout out to Esmaralda and that cutie pie, y’all look so sweet together! We are always surprised at the tv shows and movies from the 80’s and before – of how EVERYONE has a smoke in their fingers. Seems like the Entire American Population would have all keeled over from cancer if this was really true. I remember when you could have ashtrays on your desk. The outrage when it was taken away. I smoked until a month before I was prego- and am glad I quit, but I love the smell at a bonfire or the beach or a bbq. Sounds like you are a big enough girl to shrug off all of the mean responses. 🙂

I wonder why anti-smoking people here are NOT calling for an end to alcoholic beverage use. If you Google “Top 10 Dangerous Drugs,” you’ll find websites like this one: http://bit.ly/h8oEly listing alcohol at #5, while tobacco is way down at #9.

Here are a couple more:

drbenkim.com/ten-most-dangerous-drugs.html

ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/458

A very quick summary of a fact here: carnciogens depend on dose, regardless what they are. You can find carcinogens in tobacco smoke, x-rays, asbestos, funky peanut butter, tooth paste, pool water, and barbecues to name a few. All depend on dose.

Even if some carcinogen was absorded through the skin of a child of a smoker, the dose would be so small to not be worth mentioning.

Science over ‘feelings’ please.

^EXACTLY!! I mentioned that earlier…my asthmatic husband and my prone-to-migraines self both loathe being near cigarette smoke…but perfumes and strongly scented ANYTHING are a problem as well. The doc can’t warn against one thing and not another!!

BMS, I LOVE your snarky exposition on the joys of the judgement leading up to adoptive motherhood. Been there! Done that!

And all I can think about as I read both the original post and the comments is, “How do the French survive?”

“perfumes and strongly scented ANYTHING are a problem as well. The doc can’t warn against one thing and not another!!”

Because perfume and strongly scented anything are only a problem to people who are sensitive to those things (myself included). Further, there hasn’t been a single study that has concluded that perfume, the use of or 2nd hand smell, may cause cancer.

No, but the doctor wasn’t telling her that her husband needed to quit smoking or the baby would get cancer…he was telling her that the scent of the cigarette smoke could lead to respiratory problems…and strongly scented stuff CAN cause respiratory problems. I was just pointing out the inconsistencies.

I agree that if the baby was constantly exposed to someone smoking nearby, then yes…cancer is a possibility (but not a for sure thing…else my years in Europe would have given me cancer). But that wasn’t what the doctor was chiding the mother about…he was chiding about respiratory issues. As someone who has a husband, two brothers, a nephew, and a niece who have asthma…I know it isn’t JUST cigarette smoke that makes them wheeze and gasp for breath.

So if the doctor’s point was to protect against respiratory issues, then he should have also warned against perfumes, pine-sol, dreft, etc. etc.

Oh, what a darling baby! 😀 I love big fat baby cheeks:)

RE: smoking, I’m kind of on the fence — I do get twitchy about smoke around babies, and it’s definitely true that smoke lingers in clothing, on skin, etc. — we have a relative who still smokes (the rest all used to but have quit), and gifts from her always have to be laundered, sometimes twice, to de-stink them, for example. But I’d be more inclined to commend mum for quitting and dad for taking precautions than to lecture about how it’s Still Not Good Enough. Condescension is so unhelpful.

RE: back sleeping, mine never would either, but I concluded it didn’t matter because she also wouldn’t sleep alone, and the few times when she did momentarily stop breathing, I woke up, put a hand on her somewhere, and she took a big breath and lived to tell the tale. (This sounds very dramatic but it actually wasn’t: i was still mostly asleep, it was 99% involuntary reflex, I’m not sure I ever even mentioned it to the doctor.)

I’d look around for a less uptight medical practice, I think. Lots of paediatricians are like ours — reassuringly unworried about the vast majority of things, supremely uninterested in most of the things that aren’t their business (e.g., where the baby sleeps, whether the three-year-old is still nursing), but quick to spot a genuine problem (child has scarlet fever and needs abx).

@Donna: “The difference between alcohol, high fructose corn syrup, McDonald’s or Twinkies is that those things only harm the people who chose to consume them (outside of DUI). Drinking tequila doesn’t effect others in the room in the least. You can’t smell it. You can’t get drunk from being in the same room. You can’t get alcohol induced liver failure from your father’s drinking. The only person effected is the person who makes the conscious choice to drink alcohol (eat Twinkies, McDonald’s, etc). ”

Really? I currently have my niece and her two children living with me as a direct result of alcohol. Have you ever seen a truly drunk person? You don’t think poor judgement has an effect on children? What about violence, driving while intoxicated, and have you ever been in the room with someone who is sleeping off a drunk? It comes out of their pores. Let’s not discuss the financial impact of alcohol abuse on a family. And HFCS? Well, as people in the post above chastised Esmerelda because her husband “didn’t care enough about their child to want to stay around,” I think I will jump on the over-reaction bandwagon and say that once you have a child, you can no longer do ANYTHING that might shorten your life…change your diet, your driving habits, get rid of that cell phone (brain cancer, you know), no more alcohol, cigarettes, gambling (yes even the football pool has to go). Do not overindulge, overspend, overlook or over-react to anything ever again!

Does that work for those of you on this page who have seen fit to demonize a guy over one decision that YOU DON”T AGREE WITH????

@Mike – I’m more concerned about were your ‘Doctor Friend” got HIS medical degree. Carcenogens, lke medicines can definately be trasnfered by skin contact and absorbed by the skin. Ever heard of the nicotine patch? Ever seen the warning on most household cleansers “Avoid skin contact” SO, yes, theorertically, the few carcinogens on Dad’s skin could be transferred to the baby’s skin when he picks him up. Causing respiraitry illness??? Doubtful.
Asthma not genetic? I guess the oxford journal of medicne is wrong and every doctor I’ve ever been to fro the disease as weel. Astham runs in families, and is most likely caused by many factors, INCLUDING, a genetic prediposition.
Mike, stop trying to play Doctor and tell your “Doctor Friend” to stop trying to practice medicine without a brain, or obviosuly a mdeical education.

Personally, the smoking, thing, yes it would be healthier for Dad if he quit, but I think it’s a personal thing as long as he isn’t smoking around the baby.

And Esmeralda, cute baby pic. Good for you not being scared off by the estimated 500 million pedophiles in America (population 312 Million).

LOL @ wellcraftedtoo

I don’t remember who said it (and I’m not about to go through all these comments again to find out), but making the assumption that a parent who smokes doesn’t want to be around for their children is ludicrous.

Anyone who has smoked for an extended period of time will tell you that quitting is the most difficult thing to do. I, personally, would rather go through drug-free labor again than deal with the withdrawal symptoms I have. Besides the typical physical withdrawal symptoms, you also suffer disruptions in sleep patterns, nightmares when you CAN sleep, fidgeting, feeling cranky….

And then there’s the psychological withdrawal. You can’t think about anything BUT smoking, you feel anxious and nervous and depressed. Some long-term smokers even go through a grieving process similar to that which you go through after a death. You have to learn how to live as a non-smoker. It sounds simple, but if you’ve smoked for a large portion of your life, chances are you can’t remember a time that you DIDN’T smoke, and adjusting to the new reality is extremely difficult.

So to make the assumption that a smoking parent doesn’t care about being around for their children is not only wrong, it is insensitive and insulting. I want to be around for my children, it’s why I have decided to quit smoking. But please, don’t pretend that it’s all a matter of willpower and desire, as if we smokers could snap our fingers and be done with it just like that. If we could, the tobacco industry would be bankrupt in a matter of days.

Good for you, Esmeralda! I take my 2 month old baby to Kaiser and have to fill out a silly questionnaire like that every time. I just fill in the answers that I know they want, and then go about living my life in a reasonable manner. They also have me fill out a questionnaire to see if I’m depressed and/or abused at EVERY visit. Some of the questions are so silly … like, am I having a hard time sleeping? Well .. duh! I’m a new mom! Anyway, kudos to you for your common sense approach to a medical care system that can be nutty at times.

For the most part I agree here, but I must say, I don’t know if smoke like that can Cause athsma, that sounds a bit excessive, but I already have athsma and someone sitting near me (or sometimes even across the room) who has been smoking (outdoors) recently is enough to set it off. And my athsma is pretty mild.

Sean,

thanks for pointing out the dose of the poison argument. well-said!

RE: to jrmiss86: I don’t believe the health reports on 2nd hand smoke! I did not and nor did my husband EVER smoke and my son has ASTHMA! My parents did smoke when I was very young and only 1 of 4 kids has SLIGHT ASTHMA and we are all well into our 40’s … huh … seems more like people just don’t like the “linger” … or maybe we have been “influenced” to think it’s bad!

Robin I didn’t ever say that my situation proved anything. But there is nothing remotely healthy about smoking – inside, outside, down the block. If you have proof that there is, please share it with the world. The dwindling number of smokers are waiting.

O HAY LOOK IT’S ME!
Whee!

Wow, a lot of comments! I could only read some of them.

I agree with those who suggest you look for another doctor with whom you will relate better. At the very least, don’t let the doc intimidate you. It is obvious that you are an intelligent person with instincts that will protect your baby more than hyper-vigilance could.

As for the smoking, realistically, I think your doctor is going overboard, but my bigger concern would be that your child could eventually become a smoker himself. It’s hard to tell a kid that something his dad does is deadly, foolish, disgusting, or whatever. I had a friend who died of lung cancer, and it isn’t pretty.

My Dad used to let me roll his cigarettes for him, while telling me, “don’t you ever smoke, it’s stupid, a waste of money, and damages your health”
My parents didn’t hide anything from me. We had no money, had to turn off the electricity completely for a few waking hours every day just so that we could afford the bills and dinner was beans, beans and more beans. but still, at the age of 6, my father was finding enough money to pop in to my hand every day to go to the village shop to pick up “My Daddy’s tobacco and cigarette papers, please” and I’d look at the money in my hand and wonder what else we could spend the money on that would be nice for everyone and not just my father.
I watched him try and try and try to give up and saw how much hell he went through each time, and he’d say “You see this? never ever take up smoking” and he’d tell me about when he started smoking at the age of 9 and how much he regretted it. Neither me or my siblings ever took up smoking.
But, I must say, sitting with my father, helping him roll his cigarettes – i liked that.
Families are all different and have their own ways of dealing with things, of teaching important lessons and living out their problems together. They should be allowed to do that, they should be given space to do that.

I can’t believe how off topic the comments have gone. This article wasn’t about the fathers smoking habits! Did anyone read past the second paragraph?

At my Pediatrician there is a very obvious CODE on the questionaire. The answers they want you to give all have squares and the answers that will send up flags all have circles. It literally says for example “Does your child always ride in a carseat while traveling?” and there is a square to check for yes and a circle to check for no. I don’t even read the questions I just check the squares—except for the “Is your child breastfed?” question that has a square for NO–even on the first visit form!!???

that questionnaire is nothing but a fishing expedition to sic child services on parents who don’t pass it according to the eyes of the person administrating it.

While I don’t know of any evidence that third-hand smoke “causes diseases”, it can certainly exacerbate asthma in kids that have it. Given the prevalence of asthma, its not a bad idea for parents to THINK about stopping smoking when children are born, in case they really will be advised to in the future. That being said, the heavy handed, accusatory methods used by the doctor are (obviously) off-putting, and over-the-top.

For those that say that answering the questionnaires are “dangerous” because doctors are mandatory reporters—the degree of mistrust in the medical profession is truly saddening. I work in a Children’s Hospital. I have seen terrible things—truly horrifying things done to children by their “caretakers”—do you think someone is going to report that you left the baby alone for 5 minutes to go to the bathroom? Do you REALLY think that?
I suspect that these are “standard” questionnaires designed by the state; the doctors probably skim it to get a sense of what is going on, and move on.

That being said, if you are not comfortable with your provider, definitely shop around. Its important that you trust the pediatrician you choose, and not everyone is a good fit for every family.

First of all, change your doctor. I always chose doctors who has the same parenting technique as myself. For example, there parents who go by ‘attached parenting’ philosophy. There are other parents, like myself, who go by the “Baby Wise” philosophy.

I chose a doctor who agrees with “Baby Wise”, so we were on the same page. Because we parented almost the same way, I felt more comfortable asking him questions.

If you chose to find another doctor, YOU interview the doctor. If you agree with his/her parenting styles and feel comfortable, that is the doctor for you.

BTW putting a baby on their back is not 100% guaranteed. Moms in Asia are told to put their babies on their stomachs. For some reason, their babies are still alive!!!

I used to smoke and quit. It’s not easy for me to defend smokers, but…
I have to think the contact with a smoker who isn’t smoking is pretty insignificant, as far as threats to a child’s health go. I’m completely against smoking around children and cringe to see a pregnant woman light up, but the father leaves the house to smoke and doesn’t smoke in the car or around them.

I think it would have been more appropriate for the doctor to inform the mother that smoking is unhealthy, causes illness and disease, is expensive, and a socially isolating activity. It’s enough to remind her that the father may lose years with his children and miss out on spending time with them while he smokes than to suggest some residue *may* harm them. It’s reasonable to suggest he should consider quitting because his family wants him in their lives, but to use some bizarre, obscure threat seems misguided.

Can’t say I’ve read all the comments. Will add my comments, though.

First, I’ve filled out the stupid forms, too. I answer as I know they want to hear. I figure the forms are mostly for the idiots who don’t know any better, and around here, there are a lot of people who I have no doubt answer fully honestly and get in trouble. My area also has a very high poverty rate, a very high teen pregnancy rate, and a very high high-school drop out rate. All of this leads to a high incidence of bad parenting, which is usually caught at the dr or the local WIC office.

Second, I applaud the husband for limiting his son’s exposure to smoke. I know that there is a lot worse stuff in the air you breath every day. I will say, however, that I spend very little time with my relatives that smoke, whether at their homes or at mine. I am very allergic to cigarette smoke, and literally cannot breath if I am exposed to it. This includes smoke lingering on my grandmother’s clothing or skin, in her car, in my MIL’s house (even though she only smokes outside). I can barely hug my grandmother because the smoke is just embedded in her skin after 40 years of smoking.

Third, definitely make sure you’re comfortable with your child’s doctor. We go to a practice where there are 3 doctors. We really like one (the most experienced, with 3 kids of her own) and I will actually call one or two days before our appointments to make sure the doctor we like will be there. We have had an over-reaction issue with the youngest doctor in the practice (only 3 years out of med school and no kids of her own), and had to really put my foot down and demand a visit with our regular doctor to stop the insanity. After ONE visit with my daughter (ever!) the dr was throwing around “failure to thrive” and demanding we go have a huge series of blood-work and other tests done on a 15 month old. I KNEW there was nothing at all wrong with my daughter. She’s been tall but thin since birth, but growing on a steady curve and hitting all of the key calculations based on birth weight, not average charts.

Glad to hear you changed doctors. That was going to be my advice. We all feel that kind of pressure sometimes and actually my first encounter with our dear Lenore was because I was feeling SO bad after I couldn’t breast-feed my baby longer (only for about 4 months). Some comments from people, the media and friends were killing me, until I read one of her articles. Relax and enjoy your beautiful baby!!!

Good For you Esmeralda! Good for you for being smart, and rational enough to resist the BS. My home is a very similar situation, and we got the same stupid fear mongering. It’s bull, and some of it is propagated by the ANTI-smoking (prohibitionists) special interest groups. I feel most lonely when I am in the company of feeble minded, irrational ppl who have actually allowed themselves to be persuaded by such nonsense. I’d glad you were smarter than the avg bear!

Wow! I read most of these comments, and there are several people whose stories and opinions I was delighted by and some, well- not so much. But it’s a touchy subject and when Lenore told me she was going to print this I assumed there would be some intense discussion at the very least… I was not wrong!

Ok, in general, as a response to the “thirdhand smoke is bad it will give him asthma or make him smoke etc etc” people:
I don’t smoke, and my Hun smokes “lightly” and by lightly I mean 3-4 cigarettes a DAY. This is pretty impressive considering we were both at one time pack-a-day smokers. I HONESTLY do not think smoking in moderation is any worse for you that oh, say (sorry L!) *cough* taking the subway in New York everyday, say. I mean, how much crap do you think is drifting around in the air in Manhattan? Lord, I bet the healthiest person there has blacker lungs than anyone would like to admit. Air pollutions is serious business. There are carcinogens in the atmosphere of every major city from factories and cars that you simply ingest just by LIVING there.
I’m not trying to apologize for smokers- I don’t think it’s a fabulously glamorous habit, and I’m sure the world would be a shinier place if they were gone for good- but it would also be better if there were no more cars or alcohol. We all have our vices and our imperfections.
Personall, I feel vices are a part of being human and enjoying our lives. Anything that’s fun is bad for you. The trick is not overindulging, which is a distinction that Americans in particular can’t seem to make.
For several years I smoked 1-2 fancy Nat Sherman cigarettes a day, and didn’t feel an overwhelming need for smoking- but I ENJOYED it. It was when I started hanging around with heavy smokers and really letting it take over that I stopped liking it and started needing it.
This is all beside the point- The crux of the matter is- I don’t think occasional third hand smoke is going to debilitate my baby any more than living in a city. There are some of you who clearly think I’m the devil for saying that, but – sorry- I don’t thik it’s reasonable to demand that anyone who has any contact with kids not smoke ever, unless we demand the same thing about people who drive nonelectric cars. 😀

As for the questionaire:
It seems ABSURD that my child’s medical doctor can have any say about how I care for him. I’m sure most of the stuff they’re asking is reasonable- but that’s NOT THE POINT. It is not the doctor’s job to tell me how to be a mom! It is her/his job to give him his vaccinations, tend to him when he’s sick, chart his growth… not ask a bunch of irrelivent nonmedical questions about how I take care of him. Like I said, the questions themselves are not *completely* insane. I can see why someone might like to know if you’re putting your three month old on the floor and leaving for an hour at a time- but even if I WAS to do something that idiotic, it’s not his doctor’s job to tell me how to parent. It’s invasive, and infringes on my privacy, well-intentioned though it may be.

There were some really great comments from people on here –
Thank you all, *even the people who think I’m being awful*- for your input and opinions- this has been an awesome thread to read, and I think all of you have really interesting and valid opinions, except for the person who said that they are happy that all smokers are eliminating themselves D:. Way to be a downer, meancommenter!
My mom died of cancer a few years ago. She never smoked a cigarette, or did drugs, and drank only a gin and tonic every blue moon. She was an excersize addict, vegetarian health nut. She lived on plain steamed asparagus & ate organic lettuce leaves like a bingeing rabbit. She swam 50-100 laps a day, speed walked over an hour a day carrying 5lb rocks in each hand… and she was dead before she was 55 from cancer.
My dad did enough drugs in the 60s-70s to kill a small herd of yak. He’s got diabetes, no teeth, and smokes almost 2 packs of nonfilters a day, and somehow, he’s the one who’s still happily ticking along like he’s twenty.
I’m not saying that this is proof of anything. Bad habits increase your risk of early death, to be sure, but there’s a certain amount of risk that we all take simply by living in this world. We all have to make the choices about what vices are worth it to us, and to what degree we will indulge them. Driving, smoking, drinking, gambling, dating, leaving your house… all of these things can be dangerous to you and your family if done incautiously, but it’s rising above the fear and living rationally that free-range parenting is about, imho.

Thanks mike!
That’s kinda what I was going for only in a totally roundabout insanely wordy way.

sera, I guess you missed the super-long comment I just made, look 2 comments over yours. I have addressed these arguments 😀 But thanks for your input.

As for my guy cutting his life short- 4 cigarettes a day is unlikely to truncate his life that much, but it may-I hope not.

ps
I’m sorry you hate smokers. That’s a lot of people to hate, it must make you feel angry a LOT!

Well, there you go, THERE is where uncover the real threat:

“Ergo, if you can smell something, you are breathing some quantity of it in.”

Sera, you need to “detox” yourself — and really think *** HARD ** about that comment. I assume you’ve pulled our your chemist lab, and found true analytical results of that? Or, is it that you are so rabid, about YOUR OPINIONS, that you false believe things that are not true?

Sera wrote: “While I hate smoking and smokers with a vehment passion”

I think you need to find an outlet, to refocus your attention, my dear Sera.

@Mike

“Sera, you need to “detox” yourself — and really think *** HARD ** about that comment. I assume you’ve pulled our your chemist lab, and found true analytical results of that? Or, is it that you are so rabid, about YOUR OPINIONS, that you false believe things that are not true?”

No, it really is true. I’m a university chemistry student, and in my first year I needed to study cell and molecular biology. In order for your sensory cells to detect something, that something needs to come into direct physical contact with those cells. I’m not saying that there has to be MANY – indeed, you can smell things that are only present in very trace quantities. It does, however, mean that if you can smell something, there must be some particles of that something physically inside your nose – and if they’re there, they’ll also be in your lungs. I realise that this has a lot of unpleasant implications – consider that you can smell poop, all kinds of pesticides, petrol, etc etc.

This was taught to me by university professors, so evidently somebody certainly did “pull out their chemist’s lab and found true analytical results of this”. That person was not me – this is not news in biology by a long stretch – but someone did.

Just take a think about it, though. How do you think smells carry? It’s not by magic, and it’s not some sort of energy. It’s airborne particles floating around.

Sera is technically correct that if you smell something, it is because molecules of that something are physically interacting with your olfactory nerves. She is correct — it’s not magic, it’s not “smell waves” floating through the air — it’s actual sub-microscopic amounts of the stuff contacting your body.

However, EVERYTHING when it comes to toxicity is a matter of proportion. Your body’s natural defense mechanisms are able to alternatively fight off, counteract, absorb, detoxify, or block, a certain amount of any kind of toxin to the point where its presence *has no effect on you.* For very strong toxins, the amount you can tolerate is almost infinitesimal — it doesn’t take much plutonium to kill you. For others, it’s much larger.

So the fact that a smell = a chemical interaction is absolutely true — it’s just that by itself, it *tells you nothing* about whether that interaction is actually significantly harmful to you. “If you can smell it, it’s doing something to you” is fallacious. It requires *actual research and testing* to find out if the amount of tobacco smoke residue left on someone’s washed hands is enough to harm someone, it can’t simply be assumed by the fact of its presence.

Yeah, Sera, sorry bout that, put reply @ in wrong spot. Anyway, I hear what your saying, but I think a lot of what we’re bantering back and forth here is NOT Science Vs. Feelings… I’m all for the “science” but I think even within “science” their is an ability (or inability) to over zealously translate results. As was said above… What is the “true” exposure, and what is the true “risk”? Meaning, its not the “results” its the “interruption” of those results.

To make a long story short, what you misunderstood is, I was or am referring to “confirmation bias” with results. That means, the so-called science that you are referring to (when it comes to BAD BAD BAD Smoking) would likely have a tendency to find or elude to “confirming” that third hand smoke is dangerous… but not specifying “at what level”?

More specifically, I think you and others are using “confirmation bias” — You have induced inference that you are seeing what you expect, or what you want to see. This is what is happening with the “inconvenient” non-truths about Global Warming as well.

Just my .02

As for “There is a bit of a difference between reading something in a non-science textbook in middle school, and being taught science by PhD-bearing university professors in a university lecture”… Um, ah, err… Yeah, sure. You’re right — PHD Bearing Univ.’s are the “saviors of truth and wisdom” — OMIGAWD! PAAAAHLEEZE.

@ robin-

“miasma” is the word you’re looking for.

It’s one of my favorite out of vogue medical whimsies, along with trepanning and phrenology.

Esmerelda – okay, I admit, I had to look up the definitions of trepanning and phrenology. I studied accounting in college, not science (or psuedoscience, really). Of the 2, I think that trepanning seems to have the most potential. Should we bring that back as well as the theory of miasma? Maybe there’s a receptor on the skull that controls the absorption of chemicals?

That doctor conveniently ignored the thousands of deadly toxins in our consumer environment, including seemingly innocuous household items…not to mention the harsh reality of our gas-fume spewing&guzzling culture. Automobility is probably the most dangerous harm to any child’s respiratory health.
Oops – so easy to overlook, um?
It’s wonderful that kids don’t have to be directly exposed to cigarette smoke anymore. I’m astonished to think how long it took our society to come to its senses and respect them enough.
That said – my generation was smoke upon exponentially….and I got some tough lungs, baby.
So perhaps a little bit of perspective is required…

*scratches head* Esmeralda, why did you feel compelled to complete the form? Was it mandatory? What would have been the result of a refusal?

I can’t see any benefit to you of a written record as intrusive as that.

Reply to “[…] lazy, gullible journalists are nothing new, what does alarm is the willingness of some medical professionals to adopt this latest ‘little white lie’ […]”

WT*%&^? You’re kidding with this right? Let me spare you the suspense. stopped being “alarmed” at the faux science and witch-doctor-paradigms that some “modern day medical professionals” adopt. Exactly how much research have you done on risks/statistics proven results and the fuzzy math “they” use to push vaccines now-a-days? In NJ, where we have the highest number of “required” vaccines, they have “mandated” the flu shot (…wha? That’s right. The friggin unproven, moving target and donkey-tail-pinning science of the Flu shot…). I know 4 ppl personally who got the flu this year, and GOT the great-health-promising flu shot. LOL. Or, wait, wait! How about the doctor that told a family member or mine, who had found a lump in his neck — that he had “halitosis” and allergies (… he was, months later, diagnosed with thyroid cancer)… Or wait, what about the my dentist that told me a few years ago that I should dose my preschooler with a STRAIGHT FLUORIDE COCKTAIL (prescription) because she didn’t get fluoride (poison) induced tap water… Now, the first warning I always find on any fluoride product is the one that says — “Do not ingest”. eh, ah, wha? ugh. Now, I could keep going, but suffice to say: Be careful of some “medical professionals” —- Frankly, they’re quacks. Don’t be enamored by White Coats and stethoscopes… they don’t provide proof of anything, esp. that they know what they’re talking about…. LOL