Why Are We Making Pre-K Drop-Off So Hard?

We really need to push back against this kind of idiocy.

If there needs to be someone watching the cars, why not have a staff member or a volunteer parent stand there and watch them in the mornings, and then everyone could leave the babies in the cars? But I agree that even without that, the babies are safer in the cars than they are crossing the parking lot. I do think my younger ones found it an exciting part of their day to see the preschool, even if only for a minute.

This is going to sound crazy, but when I was in kindergarten, my parents dropped me off at school in the parking lot, and I’d……wait for it…….walk inside to my classroom by myself. That was the standard operating procedure in 1989-1990 (for kids who didn’t walk to school alone/with friends or siblings, that is), and nothing bad happened. Why don’t people do it that way anymore? It seems so much simpler.

Let the children leave the car and enter the classroom on their own for one, I guess.

First, I am a mother of four and I never left my younger ones in the car because it wasn’t a couple minute drop off, we usually had to wait. Second, I am a preschool teacher. Again it’s not a couple minute drop off. Yes, some parents come in and leave quickly. A lot of parents want to talk. Sometimes the preschooler doesn’t want the parent to leave, sometimes they want to show the parent something. There’s any number of things that happen on a daily basis that keep the parent in the classroom. I have had parents run in and out because their child was in the car, sleeping. I get that but an infant in an infant car seat can easily be carried in without waking them.

My boys were 13mos apart. So when I had to drop off the 4 year old I’d leave the 3 year old in the car. It is maybe 2-5 min to walk them to their classroom and sign them in. The school always said in their newsletter to please never leave children in the car during drop off. I ignored them and was never told anything in my 3 yrs going there.
I was not going to take both boys out in the rain just to get one to class.
I did find out the law in my state and now I leave my kids in the car if they ask and we follow the state law. My boys are now 13 & 12, with a 5yr old sister, so yeah sometimes they don’t want to come in with me. So far no one has ever said anything to us about it.

Call me crazy, but I leave the smaller child in the car. I have the kind of car that you can keep it running (for heat/ac) and lock it and walk away with the key. Just today, my daughter threw up on the way to school (yippee.) but I still had to get her older brother to preschool. She stayed in the car while I took less than 5 minutes to drop off Cam. There was no way I was bringing her out of the car (in just undies because she threw up all over her dress).

I have a friend who lives around the corner from our kids’ school (literally a 2-minute walk). She has actually left her baby sleeping at home in his crib to do school pick up/drop off. People just assume her husband or mom is at home. Sometimes they are, but I know (because she told me) that sometimes they are not.

I say good on her.

We have 2 different procedures depending on which program you are talking about.

Mainstream PK program – Kids can walk, ride the bus, or be dropped off. They have a special ID tag they were clipped to their clothes that gives their home campus and way home. They go directly to the GT classroom where they are watched until the bus that takes them to the early childhood campus picks them up. (While this is technically not a SPED program it serves at risk kids. Many don’t speak English and delayed speech is common so the tags are very helpful.)

Peagus/PCPD (I think I got the acronym correct) is a duel program Peagus kids are the potty trained 3 – 4 yo children of staff members. PCPD kids have some sort of condition or delay that requires intervention. This may be a cognitive delay, severe speech delay, hearing or visually impaired. The children who need it get OT, PT, Speech, taught to use various tools for the hearing/visually impaired. This is in addition to a great play based Preschool curriculum. Those parents and the parents of two life skills units can drive up the bus drive to the back doors near those 3 classrooms. Sometimes they just let the children out to walk in. They can see through the door to the classrooms. If they need to come in and have another little one in the car. There is a staff member at the door greeting walkers and bus riders who use the same door. He can step out to watch the baby. During pick up they knock on the door and if they have a little one in the car a staff member will step outside. But usually they just bring the student out.

Dismissal – the kids get off the bus and are formed into groups for how they get home from our campus. This is when the tags are especially important. Staff members take the groups to their dismissal location (Porch for pick ups, 2 different spots for walkers depending on direction walkers must be picked up by an older student or adult, day care cafeteria, buses stay in the gym.

I LOVE Peagus/PCPD
I had a student who’s littler brother had Downs Syndrome. The parents were told he would never walk, talk, speak, and they should just give him up to the state. (This was just a few years ago not decades ago). When the big sister entered our Mainstream PK program – our staff found out about little brother. They got the parents to enter him in our intervention program. The boy runs, will talk the ear off a statue, reads, writes. Yes he will probably always need some type of support but he is going to to be able to hold a job and do much of his day to day living on his own.

Busymom — that your experience was different doesn’t mean that Pushpita’s story is inaccurate, so what you felt was necessary in your situation may not be *necessary* in hers. Parents “want to talk?” Well, they might “want” to, but that doesn’t mean they have to, if they choose to manage the situation differently. And I’m guessing a given mother can judge whether her child is able to be dropped off without waiting to deal with separation or the child needing to show her something.

“I get that but an infant in an infant car seat can easily be carried in without waking them.”

Newborn to four months, maybe. After that, it really depends on the child.

To the preschool teacher above: you can’t give parents enough credit that maybe they KNOW they have a kid in the car and can (and do) adjust their dropoff time accordingly?

To the warner about hot cars: I would venture a guess that no child has ever died in a hot car due to Mommy forgetting that she’s supposed to return to the car after dropping off Junior at preschool.

To “that person” about the car seats: thank you. Many parents don’t know how exactly things are supposed to fit, and most of the time “that parent” couches her correction in an “if you really cared about your kid” tone, which you did not do. Refreshing!

And I’ve been having problems with my shoulder. It would be more than an inconvenience for me to drag a full infant carrier everywhere I went. Surely I’m not the only one.

SKL,
From http://www.kidsandcats.org, a website dedicated to showing the dangers of leaving kids in cars. Interesting that their own graphic shows more kids are killed in back overs and front overs than from being left in a hot car. They also had another statistic that only 12% of kids who die from heat related injuries in the car are intentionally left in the car, the overwhelming majority are forgotten or get in the car on their own. Seems to me their own statistics show that it is generally safe to do the very thing that they claim is so awful. http://www.kidsandcars.org/userfiles/dangers/shared/fatalities-pie-chart.pdf

Mama B, I have spent some time reading up on the whole “dying in a hot car” thing. It is a horrific thing, partly because it usually happens to a well-meaning parent or grandparent who was out of his/her usual routine. But when parents drop off / pick up at preschool, is there really any likelihood of forgetting to go back to the car pretty soon? Really? Even on the hottest day, there has been no case of a child dying in a car “within minutes,” and even if that were possible, wouldn’t a parent notice it was that hot outside? We’re not talking about parents leaving their kids outside of bars while they go in and get drunk. Why do people insist on ignoring reality?

There were usually enough parents coming and going, and standing around talking, that I could say, “could you make sure my sleeping infant doesn’t spontaneously combust while I run her sister inside?” I made a lot of good friends that way… We traded off. It was fine.

When the weather sucked and no one was outside, I unapologetically left the little ones in the car, and no one batted an eye.

At the Catholic school in town they have volunteer greeters who come to the curb and escort the children under grade 2 to their classes. Parents stay in their cars. They feel this is safer for the kids (all kids must get out at curbside), prevents truancy and tardiness (they are walked into the school to the correct classroom) and doesn’t tie up traffic as much.

Modern technology to the rescue. If you buy a new car, you can get the keyless entry option. This allows you to leave the car running (AC/heat, radio &c) while running the errand — /and/ lock the car.

Alternatively, without keyless entry, a remote start option: after you get out and key-lock the car, use the remote starter to start it up again. Now, the child is fully protected: temperature controlled and possibly a soothing audio inside a locked car.

I have used both. It’s quite nice to feel that your kids are /safely/ locked in the car while you run that errand or drop-off.

Just a question.

Would any of these schools deny entry to a registered student, if you just sent them into school, and said to heck with the sign in, fingerprints and other hoops they want you to jump thru?

Where my kids go now, which has preschool through grade 8, there is no general sign in, and I’ve seen KG kids walking themselves in. I don’t know what the law says (or doesn’t say) as far as who needs to maintain sign-in sheets and all that jazz. I don’t know what the preschool parents do; I assume most walk their kids in just because. It’s hard to tell who’s in what grade because there is such a range of ages and sizes in each.

Warren, where my kids went thru KG, there was an inside door that was locked, and you needed to do the fingerprint + computer clicky thing in order to unlock the inside door. I suppose you could buck the system and send your kid in there, but you’d be called out on it. At some point it’s easier to go with the flow until you age out.

With my kids in various different summer camps this year, it’s been interesting how they all have different requirements. Some of them are cool with you dropping off and picking up at the curb, no signature required (and if you live close, your kids can walk there alone). Some have volunteers at the drop-off and pick-up area so all you have to do is drive up and they bring the sign-in/out sheet to your car. Some require you to physically go in and sign. One required me to go in to retrieve my kids, but nothing else. These are all “school-age” camps for kids around age 5/6 thru whatever.

I agree with what several others have said (in more gentle terms): why the *bleep* are parents putting up with this?? If we’re talking a private school, okay, maybe they have some ability to force the behavior if you are worried about being kicked out, but a public school can’t refuse to let a kid in to class became Mommy didn’t check them in with little brother in tow. My church, much to my great chagrin, recently decided the check in system with it’s handy matching number so you could be summoned during service if the kid needed you was suddenly a verification system for pick up. I told them in no uncertain terms that I *would not* be treated as a criminal until I could ‘prove’ I was a parent, advized the nursery worker I *would not* be showing my number sticker when I came to pick up the kid, and then threw the ‘proof’ away before I went to pick them up. Schools, nurseries, day cares, they do not own your kids, tell them ‘no’ and simply refuse to comply with insanity.

How about this insanity? When my daughter was in Pre-K/Early Child Care I tried to have my very capable 13/14 year old Freshman in High School daughter walk her younger sister in and out, as I waited in the car circle. Because the plan was for the oldest to walk the 8 minutes from our house, through a park, and to the school on some days and they could play together at the park on their way home. After a few days, I was notified that a “registered guardian or parent” (as per the “County Rules of Child Care” ) are the only ones able to sign a child in or out. I tried to fight them on it and actually contacted the County and asked for proof. While the County said there were no such regulations, they did say that each school/center could establish their own guidelines and regulations. Really? A freshman in high school, who is legally able to stay alone at home by themselves and nearly start driving is unable to assist a child in doors? It’s all very, very ridiculous. I am expecting to be reprimanded soon for me dropping her off and letting her walk in to her dance and gym classes soon!

Where I live it’s not illegal but I could get a 100$ ticket. They seem to say that they mostly give tickets if the temperature is “too high or too low”.

The funny thing is that it’s certainly persuading people into not letting their children in the car but does nothing for parents that would forget their children in the car. You just can’t do anything against mistakes.

This reminds me of when my son was in kindergarten. During the winter, my infant daughter came down with pneumonia. Normally I walked my son to school, but due to the cold weather and my daughter’s pneumonia, I drove him one day. After school I had several parents amazed that I had simply dropped my son off, rather than walk him into school. Most parents hung around outside the kindergarten fence until class started, you see, so lots of them noticed my son coming up apparently on his own. It didn’t turn into a problem or anything, but I had several say they could watch my son in the morning if I needed to do that again.

And yes, the school had a yard duty in the kindergarten play area too. They didn’t like parents waiting in the play area because that made it too full for the kids to play, which is why everyone waited around outside the fence for their kid’s class to start.

I had a minor version of sending my daughter alone. This was when she was 18-24 months old. Her classroom was in sight of the sign in table, and just around the corner from the parking validation station. At some point she indicated a desire to just get to class. So I said “okay, you know where your room is go knock on the door.” (She couldn’t reach the door knob.)

In those 6 months (and she did this frequently) there were only a handful of times that anyone opened the door for her. Several times I approached to hear her care givers asking one another a bewildered, “What is [name] doing out there? I wonder if we should do something?” Her class mates had it figured out though. They all gathered and talked to her through the window. And at least one of the times she was let in, it was the tall escape artist in the group who opened the door for her. I could probably have improved results by talking to her teachers about it. But they never asked, and it was strange and interesting to watch.

Puzzled, I assume they would call me and read me the riot act if I just dropped my kids off.

Before the fingerprint machine, they had a number pad, and my kids always typed in the password to get in, since they were about 3. I could have dropped them off to do that, I suppose, but then they “upgraded.” :/ I asked if I could use my kids’ fingerprints instead of mine, but I just got “the look.” 😉

I am a small woman with 3 children ages 5 and under. We run/bike to preschool, along with the family dog. He won’t let ANYONE near the toddler and baby while I’m dropping off the oldest! 🙂

@Katie

Yes, I have some stats; it seems that being hit by cars as a pedestrian is the second-most common way for kids to die. And about half the kids hit by cars are at or near school, and apparently hit by other parents. We need to quit driving our kids to school if we can. Cars are incredibly dangerous. Unless your child is a paratrooper in a war zone, I don’t think there’s much more danger (s)he could face.

http://www.observerxtra.com/kids-much-safer-getting-to-school-without-the-car/

@In the Trenches

Tried to pull up your link put it didn’t work.

I totally agree though that parents need to quit driving their kids to school unless it’s absolutely needed. What the schools should really do it make the drop off a good ways away to discourage it. Also way to many parents driving 2 kids to school in giant tanks they don’t need.

And I do think if we are going to focus on improving safety for kids, this would be a good area to focus on. I’m just also saying let’s not become afraid of walking kids through a parking lot either or walking to school. After all there are many health benefits to it.

@SKL “I would say the parents would know best whether their particular kid is safer in a car or in a parking lot”.

That’s exactly my point. Where I disagree is now some people including the person Lenore quoted and yourself seem to be saying it’s horribly dangerous to take kids in a parking lot which it’s not and saying there is something wrong with a parent who takes their kid through a parking lot and judging that parent.

My mom would pull up to the curb and a teacher would greet me at the curb. Isn’t this easier than all the other suggestions?

And Katie, I meant to say, I saw nobody judging the moms who take their kids through a parking lot (except if they do so while driving an SUV).

The whole kids dying in parking lots issue was to show that the fears about leaving kids in car seats don’t make any sense if you are concerned for the kid’s safety. The point is that it’s safer to leave your kid in the car. Not that your kid will die in a parking lot.

When my children were younger, they attended preschool at the local YMCA OEYC. If you had a sleeping toddler/baby in the car and it was drop off, I just waited for another parent (who was often in a similar position) and we negotiated the drop off together. Pick up was another story because the only people who could pick up your child were the ones on `the list’ that you provided at registration. The staff at our YMCA told us that we could always phone them, and they would bring our child out to us, after enough other children were picked up so they would still be able to maintain ratio. I often needed them to do this and learned phone before pick up time, then arrive 5-10 minutes after pick up time so that the other kids could clear out. They never charged late fees as I was always waiting for them to come out. It was a great arrangement and it shows that some service providers will be flexible to meet reasonable needs.

What no one has mentioned though, is what I think Lenore talks about a lot here – building a COMMUNITY! I personally parked and watched/played with babies in cars while parents took older kids inside. I would hope that at pick up and drop off times where parents were forced to park that someone would know someone else and be able to swap kids for a few minutes (or bring another kid outside, or something). After 3 years of preschool, most of my friends are moms of my son’s friends!

I purposely picked an awesome preschool that didn’t have hoops to jump through. They get the kids from the cars as we parents drive around the parking circle and then bring them to us at the end of the day (after they’ve been playing OUTSIDE). Most Moms & Dads get out for hugs, but they will even buckle and unbuckle kids if necessary (I’ve seen it done often when grandparents pick up).

Donna, at the daycare my kids went to (and probably many others), it was age 6 weeks through KG, and many people waited until preschool age (3 or 4) to put their kids in, because their purpose in doing so was socialization / learning rather than child care. So there were some who left their baby / tot in the car as they dropped off their preschooler.

Another case where you might have the older kid at PreK/younger kid in car is if you choose to have your child do PreK at the actual school where he will be attending K and beyond. Many of the private schools around here have that option. In that case, either an employed mom who has to drop the younger sibs off elsewhere, or a SAHM, might have the issue.

@pentamom – I agree that at most preschools/schools you will have some kids with SAHMs and younger siblings. I was talking specifically about daycares which are predominantly used by children in families in which all parents in the home work so all children under school-age would be going inside.

But my impression may just be a local custom in my area in which preschools and daycares are two separate things before pre-k (age 4). SAHPs don’t use daycare for socialization; they use mother’s groups, preschools and mother’s morning out programs in my area so it would be highly unusual for the issue to even arise except during pre-k afternoon pick-up (drop off use a drop-off lane so nobody except the kid gets out) if the daycare also has a lottery-funded pre-k program.

And pick-up being what it is, I’d probably hesitate to leave my infant in the car alone. It could be 15-20 minutes before I could get out of that place some days.

And I mean that we only have so much control over society until we change society. I don’t think we should lie down and do nothing.

Civil disobedience only works if people are outraged that you are in prison for what you did. It doesn’t work if everyone believes that you deserve to be in prison for your actions.

Coccinelle, I’m not sure what you are asking. It is a fact that during the last year my kids attended their daycare/preschool/K, the company “upgraded” the daily computerized sign-in process, which required my fingerprint to unlock the door and let my kids in. No joke. Was that your question?

I understand the feeling, Michelle. I am so glad my kids are getting too old for a lot of that nonsense. I look forward to the day when nobody will think twice about seeing my kids on their own, and in the mean time, I take very calculated risks. The last thing my kids need is another disruption in their lives.

And I realize some people think that is another irrational fear. But the majority of people in my environment think I’m crazy to let my kids do some of the things I allow. If my own friends (and even my dad sometimes), who know I am a very caring mother, would think that, then how can I trust “the system” to give me the benefit of the doubt?

In fact, I was just thinking today that if anyone took a look at Miss E’s body to see if I were abusing/neglecting her, they might get the wrong idea. Miss E is allergic to bug bites and they leave horrible (but temporary) scars on her skin. It could initially give the wrong impression – especially since I don’t use meds or seek medical attention (they eventually go away on their own). And then you have Miss A, who at almost 7 is smaller than many preschoolers. Add the fact that my kids blab that I use corporal punishment, and it would not be difficult for someone to build a case against me if they tried.

Are today’s children so much more incompetent than we were in the 80′s, when our parents pulled up to the door and we walked in by ourselves?

Hell, I grew up in the 60s and my parents didn’t even stop! We learned how to “tuck and roll.”

(Sorry. Couldn’t resist.) ;-D

@SKL

I believe you! it’s just that before I read your comment, I was sure that people talking about fingerprints were joking. I don’t have any question, I’m just flabbergasted.

“what they did when we were kids” – well where I grew up, there was no such thing as pre-K. We didn’t prep for KG, we showed up and expected Mrs. Claus (yes, that was my KG teacher’s name, rhymes with house) to teach us how to read. And magic amaze-o, she did.

@SKL – the fingerprint thing is rather fascinating. Is it widespread?

Reading the comment, I couldn’t help thinking about retinal scanning, and that bit in ‘Angels and Demons’ (Dan Brown) where the guy gets his eyeball removed so the crooks can get by the retinal scanner. I wonder if all those pedos we know are waiting to kidnap our kids from crèches are going to catch on to the fingerprint thing and start chopping off the hands of arriving parents. I’m surprised the security people haven’t thought of this obvious problem …… 🙂

Seriously, though, am sorry you have to go through that kind of nonsense.

@Warren – picking on sheep again. Shameful. All I can say is “Baa. Baa. Baaaaahhhhh”. And suggest you watch Black Sheep. Remember, those sheep have your number, and are no doubt watching your house already. No wonder you’re always in such a hurry to go to jail for ridiculous causes – you know you’d be safer in there.

Baaaaahhhhhh……

Yes, Papillo. Here in NYC the cutoff is “any child who will be 5 before January 1st”, so many of those kids are only four when they start, as well. They are expected to be on a “D” level by the end of the year, and books at that level include “Feast for 10”, “Good Night, Gorilla”, and other simple predictable texts.

Some examples of texts on that level can be found at the bottom of this page:

http://www.readinga-z.com/assessments/benchmark-passages/?context=guided-reading

@Papillo–I was reading simple books before I was five, but I initiated that–I actually asked my mom to teach me how to read, because I saw her and my dad reading all the time (books, newspapers, magazines, you name it), and I wanted in on the action. I don’t think we were required to learn to read in kindergarten (1989-1990), but I do remember our teacher teaching the class how to write our names (although I’d learned that before kindergarten too), our phone numbers, and we had library time just like all the other grades, so that we could practice our reading skills on our own. I just did more actual reading than the other kids. Grade one included more actual reading instruction. I don’t know exactly which way is best to teach reading, and I’m not entirely sure that the system that was in place during my childhood was the best, because I knew a girl who apparently STILL couldn’t read in grade SIX, but shoving reading down a developmentally-unready four-year-old’s throat just doesn’t seem right.

@hineata
Ironically, I think the fingerprint thing was adopted for convenience. Instead of taking out your smartchip key card to unlock the door, or punching the keypad with the number combo, or ringing the bell and waiting for someone to buzz you in, (i’ve experienced all three) and then going in and physically signing in, they’ve combined it to a fingerprint scan.
So no, in this day and age, retina scans don’t seem so over the top, do they?

Anyone see Demolition Man?

Papilio, the way they do KG and reading varies somewhat by state, and has been changing over time. Until very recently in my state (like last year?), KG was open to all kids who turned 5 by September 30, and there was some flexibility for advanced kids with fall birthdays. My youngest’s birthday is in January, so I had to work a little harder to get her into KG at age 4. If my kids’ birthdays were later, they would have turned 6 in KG instead of 1st. Currently I believe kids are supposed to be 5 by August 1 in order to enter KG (but I think they still allow advanced kids with fall birthdays to start).

As for reading, currently there is more of a push to get kids reading younger. The actual ability to learn this varies greatly by individual child. Thankfully neither of mine has had any trouble meeting grade-level expectations for reading, so far. My eldest needed vision therapy to make this possible, though. My youngest was one of those natural readers – picked up reading without any formal instruction long before she entered KG. It would have been painful indeed if she had to wait until nearly age 6 to enter KG. Currently at age 6.5 she is reading the Harry Potter books, among many others. I stopped having her read to me nearly a year ago, as it didn’t seem helpful. The elder still reads to me every day.

I’m not sure how widespread the fingerprint thing is now, or whether it’s a growing trend. I didn’t find it convenient at all. For example, when I went to get one kid for a doctor appointment, it would insist that I was taking both kids out, and the computer had to be overridden a lot. Could have been the learning curve, I don’t know. Having anyone other than me drop off / pick up the kids would have been another hassle.

I’m just glad my kids are past that stage. Now in 2nd grade, they still need to be signed out of “aftercare,” but that’s pretty much it during the school year.

I think they do this to make the parents feel more secure. And maybe for some parents, that’s what they want. I am too busy to spend time contacting all the daycare parents and polling them about sign-in / sign-out procedures. That’s why I used daycare in the first place – I have other things to do.

The only reason I don’t leave my son in the car, even for 5 mins, is b/c it gets so hot here in AZ, especially in the summer. It takes only 5 mins for the inside of a car here to heat to 104 degrees or higher, depending on the temps for the day. That, as I see it, is the only reason not to leave a child in a car for a few minutes.

“I’m not sure how widespread the fingerprint thing is now, or whether it’s a growing trend. I didn’t find it convenient at all.”

This isn’t daycare/preschool, but here the Y uses it to ID members. (I think the Y daycare might work the same way on a separate system but I am not certain.) I actually find it convenient. And they don’t “take” your fingerprints in ink, they just scan them into the machine and then use the same machine to ID them later. I suppose that *could* be used to centralize your fingerprints somehow, but at present, it doesn’t appear to work that way.

“As for reading, there is no difference between kids taught to read at 4 or 5 or 6 so I am not sure what the push is in the US. ”

My guess is that it is more convenient for the schools to do it that way — if they can get 80% or so of the kids done with learning to read by a certain grade, and shuffle the rest off to separate remedial reading classes, then the teachers of the older grades don’t have to spend any time dealing with teaching reading.

Mind you, I don’t think that’s a good reason, because it probably makes the kids who are “pushed” ahead of their natural schedule more likely to find reading a chore that they will avoid whenever it is not absolutely required. But it’s a theory, anyway.

BTW, I understand how IDing myself by finger scan to get into the Y could be convenient when a system like that for picking up a child from daycare/school would not be convenient or sensible for other reasons.

That’s so funny. My daughter does the same thing with her “z.” When I pointed it out her, she was adamant that I was wrong.

Donna said, “I can identify 3 people from my town who are in a state prison as we speak for doing exactly that (or a very close approximation)w and 0 people who have been charged and acquitted. In an ultraliberal, inner city, not particularly tough-on-crime area. And when those stories were in the paper, there wasn’t a single commenter that said this was wrong. In fact, most thought the women (they are all women) should be hung from the nearest tree.”

And thanks for clarifying that these were cases where significant harm to the child actually occurred, since I cannot for the life of me imagine state prison time for what we’re talking about here.

I’d love to hear about the other two cases, beyond the “hanging” that occurred. It’s certainly beyond the bounds of anything I’ve ever heard of in my experience, children dying inside of cars due to simply being left inside without hyper or hypothermia being part of the equation.

Anyway, I love the fact that there are clear charts of stats that show how kids REALLY die when it comes to cars… so much more likely they’ll be run over by one, or injured while the car is in motion, than simply waiting for a few minutes unaccompanied. I’m actually floored that we have laws forbidding leaving children alone in cars, instead of laws forbidding transporting children in cars. Which is more deadly, I ask? Right. So how about no such laws at all? What possible good do they achieve? Kids will have freak accidents regardless of laws, parents will tragically forget kids in cars regardless of laws, people will tragically back over their kids with their cars regardless of the laws.

I just don’t get it. It’s as though legislation is being enacted as some kind of voodoo charm to prevent harm to children that is, sadly, inevitable.

Just yesterday, a 9.5 year old girl from the States resisted my idea to leave her and my 9-year-old at the park where a neighbourhood market was taking place while the two moms went on a brief (20 min) errand. “But someone might steal me!” she wailed, without a trace of sarcasm. I boggled to hear this from a child. “Who will help me if someone tries to take me?” she asked, clearly terrified. “Well,” I said, “how about you just kick and scream and bite and thrash and be such a pain in the ass that no one would want to take you? So that everyone around here would notice, and help you? There are tons of people here.” She seemed satisfied with that plan, but I heard later that she cried and obsessed the entire time we were away.

Tragic.

So. Very. Tragic.

anon, I agree with your word “tragic.” My friends say that to my kids all the time. “Don’t do x, someone might steal you.” I want to kick them (figuratively, of course).

This is another aspect of parents not being trusted to prioritize their kids’ well-being.

I have a daughter who has some listening problems, and after much research and thinking, I decided to try giving her a little coffee in the mornings before school. To make it fun, I told the girls we’d go shopping for a couple of little car mugs for them to sip on the way to school. They excitedly told my friend, who responded (for all to hear), “oh no, that’s very bad, very bad, how can you even think such a thing?” Gee, thanks for telling my kids that (a) I’m an idiot, and (b) I don’t care as much about them as you do. For putting me in a position of having to reassure my kids that I wouldn’t do something to hurt them. Bah.

“I tend to be an advocate of early reading (that is, a five-year-old should be trying to put letters together into words at least). If it isn’t clicking despite plenty of gentle exposure, then the child should be evaluated for problems earlier rather than later. Therapy can make a bigger impact at an earlier age. That said, I am aware that some kids just click a little later than others.”

But if it doesn’t matter if a kid learns to read at 4, 5, 6 or maybe even 7 (Finland!) because they’ll be at the same level at 8 anyway (assuming normal intelligence), then why spend all that time on gentle exposure at 5? At the cost of what – playing?
And why would you start at that age when you already know many kids won’t be ready yet? You say it’s better to start therapy early – okay, that’s often true. But if all the kid needs is: more time, you’re only creating problems that aren’t actually there. And then therapy is just a waste of money *and* time.
I am all for reading to your child because he/she will benefit from that (grammar, vocabulary, knowledge of the world in the broadest sense, and of course quality time with you), and if the kid is curious for the letters and/or learns how to read just by reading along while you read out loud, that’s fine. But I get the feeling that was not what you meant by gentle exposure.

Papilio, even my kid with learning problems only spent maybe 20 minutes per day learning to read at age 5. She had plenty of time left for playing.

I have been studying reading and teaching kids to read for about 30 years, so it’s hard to put all my knowledge and experience into a couple sentences, especially since all kids are different. Obviously there is a lot more behind the words.

You can say it doesn’t matter when a child learns to read, but it does matter if she’s attending a school where everyone else can read. The USA has not in memorable history accepted that kids should not be at least trying to read by age 6, and nowadays the trend is to facilitate their starting at 5 (and most kids rise to the occasion). Reading at 5 was standard in various school systems in the past, also. (That was the case with my grandmother, my mom, and me for example.) In many countries it’s normal to start at age 4, by the way, so it’s not just an American oddity.

Further, while it may not matter if all neurotypical kids are introduced to reading skills at 4, 5, 6, or 7, it does matter if a child has a learning problem that is not addressed at an early age. Early intervention is much more effective than waiting. Besides, it gives us the opportunity to minimize the amount of frustration and embarrassment the child will feel once all the other kids learn to read.

Of course I was not suggesting that everyone get therapy whether they need it or not. I was suggesting they be evaluated for problems if things are not clicking. The tests are very precise and won’t result in kids without vision problems (for example) being subjected to vision therapy. I had my kid’s vision evaluated at age 3.5, long before she would have started being taught to read. (She already wore glasses, but the glasses didn’t resolve all of her problems.)

“I tend to be an advocate of early reading (that is, a five-year-old should be trying to put letters together into words at least). If it isn’t clicking despite plenty of gentle exposure, then the child should be evaluated for problems earlier rather than later. ”

I mostly agree with this. I think that promoting and giving the opportunity to learn to read earlier is great. And discovering real problems early on is certainly desirable. But within those parameters, I’m just leery of a system that gives no flexibility for the fact that some kids, perfectly normally with no treatable “problems,” just don’t click until they’re almost 6. If they’re coming up on the 6th birthday and there’s been no progress at all, sure, look into it. But a cookie-cutter push-push-push everybody-literate by 5 years 3 months approach has its drawbacks as well.

Of course I’m always leery of letting the government dictate individual matters. But much non-government research, as well as personal experience, has shown that it isn’t ridiculous to be teaching reading basics to a five-year-old. Maria Montessori believed that kids were ready to read at age 4.5; and many certainly are.

Well SKL, that is the difference between you and me. While you are willing to let others dictate to you how you will raise your kids, because you are too afraid to make a stand, while I figure my kids, and eventually their rights as parents are worth fighting for.

Sweetie, I have, and will stand toe to toe with any authority to protect my rights, and the rights of my family.

And one of the ways I deal with any authority is refuse to deal with fronline flunkies that do not have the power to make any decision. I have no problem with stepping on anyone’s forehead untill I reach the top of ladder. And then it works well to remind them who they actually work for. If this approach does not work for you, then you are not doing it right.

@pentamom
How old is your eldest? Do you remember when things switched?

Anybody ever notice how those most opposed to ever changing their ways to fit into society are also those most determined to force the rest of us to change our ways? Nobody can dictate to Warren how to raise his kids, but he has no qualms whatsoever about trying to do that to everybody else!

Natalie,

It really always varied by school district. In the early 1980s, my kid sister and step-niece were both in public KG. Step-niece was being taught to read in KG. Sister didn’t begin reading lessons until 1st, and then they didn’t differentiate (i.e., they didn’t break the class in to ability groups), so they didn’t read an actual story until around Christmas time. I remember this really irking me since my sister read her first book two years earlier at age 4.5.

In the past, KG was not required, and many kids did not attend. This is a likely reason why they designed 1st grade curriculum for kids who needed to begin reading instruction then. Nowadays KG attendance is practically universal, and with Head Start programs, even disadvantaged kids enter KG with some clue about letters and books. So this might be one reason why they switched.

Another factor could be the changing emphasis on phonics vs. sight words. Historically schools taught phonics first, and phonics is pretty straightforward for most kids. At some point, many/most schools switched from phonics instruction to sight words. The sight word method requires that all reading materials have a controlled (stilted, artificially-limited) vocabulary that made reading less than pleasurable. (There’s only so much “see, see, see, look and see” you can read before you want to puke on it.) This was done in the 1940s in my parents’ school district; I know this because my mom thinks this is why my dad could not learn to read. Anyhoo, there must have been a bunch of kids who didn’t pick up the sight word method, so some brilliant person decided that everyone should wait until 1st grade to start formal reading instruction. When I was in school, the public schools didn’t teach reading in KG, but my parochial school did.

In college, my initial major was education. This was in the early 1980s. I was taught that kids weren’t ready to read until they would, for example, draw a picture with everything lined up on a baseline, which they said happens when kids are around age 7. I knew this to be BS since everyone in my family (except for my dyslexic dad) was reading by age 5, and I remembered that my whole KG class had learned to read by 5/6. I am not sure how the “experts” managed to convince people, but it’s just part of the “dumbing down” we’ve seen in schools. Maybe the teachers’ unions pushed it because it was easier for them. Maybe the public wasn’t paying attention.

Eventually public school educators figured out that phonics needed to be given more importance again, and perhaps with this change, they noticed that a lot of kids were able to read in KG. Or maybe it was the standards push. I really don’t know. But I’m glad they are giving kids more building blocks in KG so they can broaden their horizons.

And… We all get it, even if he doesn’t.

I’m surprised there aren’t more comments like @Emily made. Why do we have to escort the school aged kid in? Why can’t they get out of the car and walk them self in? Couldn’t we change the rules and have that be the norm?

Yes, I would not consider pre-K to be school-aged.

My kids *could* have walked themselves in at age 3 (since they knew how to work the keypad). But they preferred for me to go in with them, so I accommodated them. At age 4, I’m sure there are many kids who still feel better having their parent go in with them. No harm in it, generally.

@SKL
Sight words worked pretty well first time around. We’ll see if the same methods work with my 3 yr old when we get there.

Natalie,

Even back in my days of kindergarten, it varied. I went to KG in Maine where they did not teach you to read until 1st grade. When I moved to NJ in 1st grade, I had to be put in remedial class for reading once they discovered that I couldn’t since they all learned in KG.

That said, it was totally not a big deal at all and I was back with my class full time well before the end of the year, had exceeded my entire class by 2nd grade and had completely finished the elementary school reading program by 4th grade, leaving my teacher scavenging for things for me to do during reading time.

Way too much emphasis is put on learning to read young in the US.

Uly and SKL – Haven’t you learned by now that there is only one way to do every single thing in the world – Warren’s way. And if you don’t do things Warren’s way, you are weak cowards. Duh.

Donna, unless your friend’s kid was in a private school, I don’t think they had a right to prevent him from entering first grade at the same age as everyone else.

Interesting conversation. I’m so glad I homeschool my son, who is an only child and is almost 10 years old, so I don’t have to worry about him or a younger sibling falling asleep in the car at an inconvenient time.
This conversation reminded me that when I was 17 and a senior in high school, I would drive my younger sister to her preschool program and drop her off (they even let me sign her in). This was way back in the 1980s.
Nowadays, from what I understand of my state’s drivers license laws, no one under the age of 18 can drive in a car with another person under the age of 18, so I couldn’t do this today. Nor do I think the preschool would allow this, but that would depend on the school, probably.

On how to fight, I have one further thought. It seems to me that part of child-rearing is sacrificing what you want for the good of the child. I want to fight, all the time, and every time, against what is wrong. Maybe one of the things that we need to sacrifice is our deeply-held beliefs. (Isn’t this what the story of the binding of Isaac is supposed to teach?)

On the age at which to learn to read – this whole problem is a failing of the existence of schools. In a better world, kids would learn to read when they are ready, with no “hurry up, the class is waiting” nonsense.

anon –

The hanging boy didn’t die. He suffered brain damage but was alive as of his mother going to prison.

I worked in one town and lived in another so these are cases that I recall from the local paper and not in depth knowledge of handling them. I remember the hanging case because it was so extremely bizarre. I believe that one of the other cases also involved a child who got caught in the window and suffered some serious injury as a result. I can’t recall when happened in the 3rd case as it was awhile ago but it was not a run-of-the mill leaving a kid in the car scenario; something happened after the mother left the child in the car.

Just posted a question on a super-secret facebook group where I believe people will be pretty honest about when their kids learned to read. (I asked both age and grade.) This group has a fair number of kids with special needs, so if anything, it will be skewed toward older. I’ll report back once I get some data.

@donna
It’s not just these days. My mom STILL brags about when my sisters and I learned to read.

@puzzled
It’s a great sentiment, but public schools have large teacher to student ratios. I think there would need to be a change in teaching style, and more staff, to accommodate individuals in such a different ways. I think I see now why it’s just easier to hold a kid back. Not saying it’s right if everything is on level except reading, but I see why it would be easier for a school system to do so.

And now a former KG teacher who has three kids (who all read before KG) has chimed in. She says retention is usually a bad idea and if anyone tries to pressure you into that, ask what they’ve done to provide extra help once a problem was detected, and how would they do things different the second time around. She also feels the expectation is reasonable that most kids (but not all) will read in KG.

And still…
Is it really worse to allow them to PLAY one more year of their lives and learning all kinds of other things by doing just that, before sitting still and focusing on academic learning (entering the Harvard-race…), than to hasten the children who aren’t ready yet and filling their afternoons/summers with extra classes? I’m sure it doesn’t matter for the majority of children (certainly if starting younger only takes more time to end up with the same result), and again, I’m certainly not against teaching children to read earlier, on the condition that they want to learn it themselves.

What are the international data on this? SKL, you say there are more countries starting at 5 (4, too?)? Are there benefits in the long run — argh, what’s the name of that international comparison of 15yos again? Is there a correlation?

I have to go with Papilio on this one. Just because we can, why do we have to? Many studies have shown that there is absolutely no difference whatsoever in academic outcomes for kids who read at 4-7. Let them play. And why spend 9 months teaching kids something that they learn much quicker the next year with absolutely no negative impact on their ultimate scholastic achievement?

As someone who learned to read in 1st instead of KG – for no reason other than I was taught then since I have no doubt that I could have learned earlier – I can’t think of a single thing about my life that is lacking. I am not sitting around fretting over that year that I didn’t get to read “See Spot Run.” In fact, I’ve never read “See Spot Run.” I skipped over most of the beginner stuff.

It is the same reason that I chose not to push to have my child moved up a grade when we got to Samoa. I thought about. I easily could have and she could have handled the work. I just see no point in pushing kids out of childhood and into adulthood quicker than they need to be. Childhood is fleeting and adulthood is many years. There is nothing to be gained by getting there a year faster, nor do I see it as something that should be done just because you can. Life isn’t a race.

There is always the option of waiting a year to start your kid if you really think he can’t handle school yet, and if you really believe it doesn’t matter when they start and when they finish.

“@pentamom
How old is your eldest? Do you remember when things switched? ”

My eldest is 22 so I think she would have been subject to the trying to get kids to read earlier phase, but I really don’t know — all my kids but #2 were homeschooled 100% from K-8. The exception was #2, who REALLY needed socialization. He did K, two years of 1st (ironically because of delayed reading!) and 2nd in a very small, Montessori-ish Christian school (homeschooled after that.) He definitely experienced the “push to read” thing.

So anyway, I think the switch probably happened sometime before he started school in the late 90’s, but I wasn’t really aware of what was going on in schools apart from his experience.

BTW, the reason it was 2 years of 1st instead of 2 years of K was due to kind of a mix up in communication (they’d never made it clear to us at the end of K that they didn’t think he was ready for 1st) and the Montessori-ish environment lent itself to just letting him do most stuff with the 1st graders anyway (it was one classroom pre-K to 1st) so he just went ahead on to 1st, and then when he hadn’t made enough progress for 2nd, he repeated 1st.

“My response to your question would be, why hold them BACK from that if they’re ready? ”

Where did I say that we should hold anyone back? I just think reading is way too emphasized as a skill needed by the end of KG. I don’t think they should stop teaching the beginning of reading in KG; just that it shouldn’t be so damned important in KG.

“Well, no, but I’m such a reading fanatic that I *would* mourn over a year lost of reading down the line.”

Huh? I’m not even sure what this means. In my experience kids who learn in KG and kids who learn in 1st grade are reading pretty equal, when adjusted for intellect, by the end of 1st grade. You generally learn how to read quicker if you wait longer to learn and spend little, if any, time on “See Spot Run.”

It is like teaching my child to ride a bike. I tried before she was ready and it was several days of struggling. If I had pushed it, I probably could have made her learn within a reasonable amount of time. But I realized that this was all more about me than her so I put her training wheels back on. When she asked for them to come off, she taught herself to ride in about 5 minutes.

It all sounds very similar to potty training.

Donna, I seem to remember you mentioning that you’d wished your daughter could have been accelerated.

Natalie – certainly it would take large-scale changes but, in my opinion, more staff/faculty is not needed. Ideally, what I really want is an end to schooling itself. Even short of that, though, there are ways to do what I’m saying without more teachers. Most importantly, we need to drop a few assumptions and let kids spend more time on their own, doing what comes naturally at their age – we need to not think that students need to interact with a teacher all the time.

Simple example – Billy learns by reading, Bobby by doing. We can stick them both in a classroom and do half and half. We can stick them in separate classrooms, and let each learn their own way – except that Bobby’s classroom won’t really work, because not everyone who learns by doing can learn in the same ways, and Billy’s is inefficient, since now we have a teacher watching them read. Or we can take Billy to the library, and Bobby to the lake. Then we can give them time to discuss what they’ve learned. Bobby can talk about what he saw at the lake, and Billy can get excited when he notices that he read about that in Michael Pollan’s latest book, and can tell Bobby what he read. Notice who is not needed or wanted here, except to point out cool things to Bobby and to suggest books to Billy.

The same things can apply earlier. We don’t need each student sitting with a teacher, nor do we need to assign teachers to development-ranked small groups. We need to set up an environment where kids can explore by themselves, and receive occasional input. The main role of teachers is to inspire, to make things difficult from time to time, and to discuss – not to teach.

SKL – I’m confused by your description of KG – in particular students bored by lessons, daydreaming, etc. You don’t mean to say that there are KG teachers who are lecturing while students sit in their seats, do you?

VJacob, I don’t know what FRUA is. I don’t know how this facebook group got started or how long it’s existed. Years, for sure. I used to go to an adoption forum that went from being very active to very quiet, because everyone had migrated to the facebook group. This is the reason I finally started using facebook. 🙂

Puzzled, even when I was in KG 42 years ago, I perfected the hidden eyeroll, used while waiting for the teacher to explain something *again* to those in the class who didn’t get it the first time, or the second time . . . . We didn’t sit in our seats all the time, but the non-sitting activities were boring too. Wooden puzzles? Ugh. Gimme a break. And I was the youngest in the class. I can’t imagine having to be the oldest.

Nowadays some schools seem to try for more differentiation so that everyone doesn’t have to be on the same page. (Though they didn’t do that in my kids’ parochial school despite a very broad range of abilities in 1st grade.) Also, they now have helpers to work with the more challenged kids during the school day. But of course if you take away academics, you take away that little bit of relief from the kids who are ready and eager for more.

I don’t love the concept of school, though I get it for the most part. The fact is that most of us need it at some level. Either we need to work during the day, or we aren’t up to the job of teaching certain subjects, or our kids do better receiving instruction from others than from us, or some combination. I used to be very idealistic about school reform when I was young, but the fact is that most kids aren’t any more damaged by school than they would be by whatever we’d replace it with.

In my daughter’s KG, they did stress reading, but it wasn’t the majority of the day, not even a large portion. They had a bunch of subjects in 30-40 minute intervals, including free play, throughout the day, maybe longer, I don’t remember.
These subjects were very hands on, and very compatible with a KG age group IMO. It’s not sitting and hearing a lecture. I thought it appropriate in easing them into first grade. My daughter was having fun, she liked the activities they did. She wasn’t bored. She came home with art projects galore.
Now begs the question, why is it necessary to “get them ready” for the sitting and writing in workbooks in first grade, if it can be delayed? If it isn’t necessary for a good education?
I’m not sure how the first grade at our school is set up. We havent had an orientation yet. But I can remember the boredom for me starting around first grade.

@puzzled
We actually had something like that in my elementary school when I was a kid. But it wasn’t for everyone, just the kids that scored above a certain standard on some test. It was a half day every week, and it was by far the highlight of school back then.

We built structures out of weird objects to see which group could make the structure that carried the most weight, we invented monsters, we had a model UN meeting where each kid had to pick and represent a country, we had a hero day, where we dressed up as and made an oral presentation of a hero of our choice, we did this activity called create a character where we invented a character in detail, drawing, describing attributes, emotions, events in the character’s life, we built rafts out of milk cartons and raced them in the jr high pool. We played “below the root” (anybody remember that?) for the problem solving, and programmed computers. Teacher involvement was minimal, just some guidance here and there.

The projects could be as simple or complex as we wanted them to be. there really werent any limits and it was really surprising what young kids could do when let loose with their imaginations. And there were a lot of other activities that I remember vividly. Regular School was a blur. I was sad when it ended in 6th grade. They had activities for the mathematically inclined, the arts inclined, the music inclined, etc.

I wish more kids had the experience I did.

SKL – don’t get the idea that I’m advocating replacing schooling with homeschooling. I have my own problems with homeschooling – if schools are bad, why turn the home into one? No, what I’m asking for is the elimination of the concept of ‘instruction’ wholesale. It’s not about asking teachers to instruct different kids in different ways, or wanting parents to do it instead. It’s about having, say, a large building full of stuff to play with and explore, on a campus teaming with wildlife, and ponds and lakes to fish in – and a few people around the kids can ask questions to. That’s an intermediate idea. My fully radical idea is a society that treasures and loves learning, in all places at all times.

Natalie – that sounds like a good program. How sad that the school decided that opportunities to think in a real way – to not sit in a desk being force-fed facts – is only for those whose minds do ok in the school setting. They denied it to those who can least survive the school.

@puzzled

I don’t think it was that straightforward. I remember quite a few of those kids struggling academically later on, despite the talked about potential. There were also many standouts, including our class valedictorian, who weren’t in this program. I have no idea how they decided who went and who didn’t, I have no clue what that test/evaluation was as I don’t even remember taking it.

But what I do know is that it was a lot of fun. We worked in groups and individually, projects could be one class period or spread over the entire year. There was such a variety of things we could do. I really do wish that it would be available to all.

SKL, it sounds like you were really bored in KG and I’m sorry to hear that, because I know it s*cks to be bored at school.
I know I could’ve learned how to read at 4/5, but I didn’t ask, so I only learned it in 1st grade, then progressed twice as fast as my classmates and read a LOT for years in a row, until I had to read literature in 9th-12th grade and stopped almost completely. Believe me, I have been bored in school.
But just because reading in KG could have been a good idea for me (and maybe 2 or 3 other kids), it doesn’t mean that all my classmates should’ve get that same treatment too. Some kids are indeed eager to learn to read and are perfectly ready for 1st grade stuff. However, I wouldn’t basically turn KG into 1st grade just for those early learners who’d otherwise be bored (a small minority, I believe) – I’d rather bring them to 1st grade. Perhaps even parttime.
In short: yes, for the smart, bored kids it’s wonderful to learn to read at 5. But looking at the big picture, taking all the other kids into consideration as well, I think it’s fine to let them play at 5 and read at 6. In 1st grade.

All I’m saying is, that kids should have the opportunity to learn to read well by the end of kindergarten (if not before) if they seem to be ready. Don’t push the kids who aren’t ready,but provide the means to learn reading as early as the earlier kids are ready for it.

I don’t buy the idea that the only gain from teaching reading younger is that kids get to spend an extra year marginally decoding basic reading exercises. That may be true in many cases, but I think of my own experience — I was a mostly self-taught reader by the time I started KG a few months before my 5th birthday (43 years ago.) There may be some kids who don’t come from the book-rich, reading-oriented home I grew up in, who might not be self-taught, but might be ready to spring right into “real” reading within a few months, with some instruction. I would hate for those kids to be denied the pleasure of reading for a year or more because someone has decided there “is no benefit” to reading earlier and therefore no school time is spent on it.

IOW, if we’re talking about “pushing” kids who aren’t really ready, we agree. If we’re talking about whether it matters at all whether accelerated reading instruction is made available to kids in KG who are actually ready for it, I think we don’t really agree, because I think it does matter.

@pentamom: Yeah – the difference is that I would like those kids to choose actively, instead of adults coming up with the idea. Like Andy more or less pointed out, there’s more in life when you’re 5.

@SKL: I don’t know, probably the same people who invented “first grade” in the first place and felt academic learning should start at 6.
It would also not be the first time kids were pushed. It is certainly not the only time kids get deprived of all kinds of activities regarding other aspects of development, just because reading seems so important to adults, nice and measurable as it is.
And again, since the US is hardly the only country in the world where kids learn how to read, what is the rest of the world doing, with which results in the long run?

Puzzled-
What you are describing is “Unschooling” and there are actual “schools” that do exactly what you describe. It is also sometimes called Democratic school. Check out the Sudbury Valley school, it is the original that all the others are built on.
We have a Sudbury school here too, and its exactly as you describe. Adults as facilitators, not teachers.
The bad part is these tend to be private, and as such, the kids that could really use it do not get to go (with a few exceptions of scholarship kids) They draw from already privileged children that have parents that are invested in making their lives enriched, so it’s hard to tell if any success comes from the learning style, or from the privilege of the families.
regardless, it does exist, and is not too hard to replicate if you wNt to have one in your area.

Papilio, I can certainly agree to disagree. I wasn’t meaning to be aggressive, but I honestly think you are misled about how much time/effort it takes for a typical 5/6yo to learn to read.